Slashdot Mirror
The Jet Fighter Laser Cannon
fahrbot-bot sends in a Register piece about DARPA issuing the penultimate contract for what is intended to be a jet-mounted laser cannon. The Reg outdoes itself in a BOTEC involving downsizing to shark scale. "The US military will shortly issue a brace of contracts for 'refrigerator sized' laser blaster cannons. One of the deals will see a full-power ground prototype built which will be the final stage prior to America's first raygun-equipped jet fighter. ... If it scales down far enough, this would seem to put handheld HELL-guns within an order of magnitude of the striking power offered by conventional small-arms. A 9mm pistol bullet has about 750 joules muzzle energy: a 5kg portable HELL-ray weapon would put out this much energy in a blast less than a second long. ... A dolphin can carry a human being weighing up to 100kg along for a ride. A thoroughbred shark in good training can surely match this. Thus, we seem to be looking at practicable head-[laser] output in the 20-kilowatt range."
Ok, I see the obligatory "sharks" tag, but what about the "pewpewpew" tag?
Why not compare it to a real handgun caliber? ;)
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
"Penultimate" means "second to last" and nothing else.
It sounds like "ultimate", and it is derived from "ultimate", but it still doesn't mean "super awesome".
When I read the summary I wondered if they'd be putting one of those on flying robot drones and then I realized that yes, it's 2009 and we live in the fucking future.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
penultimate: last but one in a series of things; second to the last
P226
The planetarium cartel will never allow that to happen and they are more powerful than the Illuminati.
After reading the article, I cannot be sure that the US military spoke about scaling the lasers down to a shark-sized one. My guess is that Lewis Page wanted to please the slashdot community.
I've never heard an analysis of effects on humans. Bullets are good a disrupting tissue, often causing death. A laser might deliver a cauterized burn, or blindness if in the right spot.
Time to get into the mirror business! It's a lot easier to deflect protons than bullets, I'll tell you that.
I want those frickin Lasers on the sharks heads!
"LASER" = Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. It strikes me as wrong to use the first letter of an acronym as the last letter of another acronym.
It should be HELLASER = High Energy Liquid Light Amplification by Stimulated Emision of Radiation.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
...a brace of contracts...
I get lost with all the legal verbiage.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
We've been down this way back during the star wars days and trying to shoot down missiles. Any sort of energy that is released in the term of a second or so is useless against anything but stationary targets where you can assume you will hit the same point for that entire second. Bullets on the other hand expend their energy in a range of ten thousandths of a second. Until lasers or other beam weapons can deliver enough energy in a short enough amount of time similar to a bullet or supersonic missile, they simply will not make good weapons. Just make your missiles spin and any energy hitting them will be over a very large area. Similarly, the energy given for a 9mm hitting a human target that is moving around will be affected less than the firer of a 9mm who will probably absorb that energy over a shorter time and less area due to recoil.
OK, so did they also let the ultimate contract, or do they now award to the second-best bidder?
Greedo is starting to sweat
Now that's a slashdot article title I think we can all approve of.
Val Kilmer seen running around MIT hollering with joy.
-
Does firing a laser bring recoil opposite the laser's direction with the energy equal to that in the laser, the way firing a bullet does?
--
make install -not war
Wake me when they make a {voice=Arnold}"phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range" {/voice}
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Will Val Kilmer be able to redirect the laser to pop popcorn from the sky?
It seems to me that 750 joules of kinetic energy in a bullet would do a lot more damage to a target than 750 joules of electromagnetic energy. A laser can only burn through tissue, and that'll always take longer than a metal slug takes to penetrate, given the same amount of energy, right?
"A week in the lab saves an hour in the library"
looks cool
Think about how a gun works - you are accelerating a substantial mass (bullet). With a laser, you are accelerating photons which have almost no mass, so even though the same amount of energy is involved you have far less recoil.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Which is exactly the sense in which it is used here, as is indicated by the language from TFA quoted in TFS: "the final stage prior to America's first raygun-equipped jet fighter."
So, in the series in which the last (or "ultimate") stage is the contract for a laser-armed jet fighter, the contract for the ground-based prototype is the second to last (or "penultimate") stage.
So, great job of knowing what "penultimate" means, but next time work on reading and understanding the post in which it is used before accusing someone of using it wrong.
All you'd need is a large spinning mirror and you could vaporize a human target from space. Better go make sure someone didn't steal Kents tracking system.
Plus sharks with FRICKIN LAZER BEAMS attached to their heads?
I like the first movie better.
OK, so 702 joules sounds impressive. It is, but only for mechanical energy. Those same 702 joules only heat 10 mL of water 17'C (30'F). Not even enough for a burn! But maybe enough to blind.
[At risk of being modded redundant (but since none of the three posts I've seen making the same criticism of TFS have been yet, maybe not)]
This is exactly the sense in which it is used here, as is indicated by the language from TFA quoted in TFS: "the final stage prior to America's first raygun-equipped jet fighter."
So, in the series in which the last (or "ultimate") stage is the contract for a laser-armed jet fighter, the contract for the ground-based prototype is the second to last (or "penultimate") stage.
So, great job of knowing what "penultimate" means, but next time work on reading and understanding the post in which it is used before accusing someone of using it wrong.
More information via http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/11/darpas-liquid-laser-gunship-program-pushes-ahead/
From TFA:
If it scales down far enough, this would seem to put handheld HELL-guns within an order of magnitude of the striking power offered by conventional small-arms. A 9mm pistol bullet has about 750 joules muzzle energy: a 5kg portable HELL-ray weapon would put out this much energy in a blast less than a second long.
Since 9mm guns tend to be pistols they weigh a lot less than 5kg (11 lbs.). Most semi-automatic pistols are also capable of accurately firing 3-4 rounds per second and as has already been mentioned keeping a 750 joules laser on a target for an entire second would be close to impossible unless the target was completely incapable of movement, so that energy is going to be diffused across the target reducing it's effectiveness pretty severely.
I guess the last thing I feel obligated to point out is that a handheld HELL-gun that is within an order of magnitude of the striking power offered by conventional small arms would have about 75 joules of muzzle energy and would be about as dangerous as a BB gun (You could put your eye out with it). An order of magnitude is a factor of 10.
How are the headaches doing, Czarangelus?
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Obvious troll is obvious.
I am not from the US but it is pretty clear to me that the US is vulnerable only on its energy supply. That is why they now have an oil producer (Iraq) as a client state. You can mouth off about the US being the next victim but the fact is that as long as they have a supply of energy they can't be effectively attacked short of lobbing nukes. And even there the chance of success is small.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Not only Godwinned but also... Satan? Surely there's a law for that too...
Even though this read mostly like a paranoid rant, it contains just enough grains of truth to be uncomfortable. It IS corporate welfare for Boeing and Raytheon, America DOES fund its own enemies, and the deaths of American soldiers DO enrich military contractors.
The only reason the last paragraph remains a paranoid rant is because I'm worth more to Goldman Sachs as a LIVE victim, rather than a dead one. My taxes justify their bailout.
I would like an elegant weapon from an more civilized age.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Empires fall from within first, due to corruption and incomptance. Clinton was selling American missile secrets to the Chinese, that sleazeball, I wouldn't be surprised if America had a long history of trying to get out of its debt obligations to China by providing them with military technology.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Most of what you wrote is true, but really you're just jealous that we have death rays and you don't.
New Orleans wasn't profitable to Goldman Sachs to maintain and modernize their anti-flooding infrastructure, nor was Minneapolis profitable enough for the I-35 to be maintained. There are many ways to kill a man for unprofitability; next time you're driving over a bridge, well - ask yourself one question - is my city profitable enough to the various government agencies that they bother to keep this bridge standing?
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
How did we get sharks to fly at jet speeds? with a laser on them?
We love you too, CZ. Have you paid off those student loans yet?
Actually, my parents decided their Consumer Loyalty Oath score was more important than their money (the bank didn't accept my repayment offer, which at the time was every dime not going to rent, food, gas, and other necessity.) I'm a free man now supporting myself in the private sector by my own strength and the grace of God.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Time to get into the mirror business! It's a lot easier to deflect protons than bullets, I'll tell you that.
That's strange considering that bullets, at least lead ones, are 40% protons by mass. It's also a real shame that you didn't tell us that before we designed the LHC - it would have been a lot easier to use mirrors to bounce the protons beams about the ring instead of using superconducting magnets. Perhaps you meant photons....
NEXT!
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
But what happens when you need to heat up your giant bag of popcorn?
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Hmmm. Just several years ago, these units did not have the power to run for multiple shots and would not be ready until after 2015. Now, it appears that we have solved the power issue. Chemical storage (batteries) can not do it (high energy, but not enough power). Likewise a chemical approach would not allow for lots of shots (it would be more like 10-20 shots; no more).
What changed? Is there a new supercap coming that has VERY HIGH power storage? Perhaps with high power AND high energy (charge it on the ground and then take the energy up)?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Call me when DARPA/NG get the solid state laser down to refrigerator size. Why? Because (generally) a solid state laser runs on electricity, no consumable liquid fuel. The F-35 JSF has the option of mounting a DE weapon bay where the lift fan goes, and using the engine shaft power normally diverted to the fan to drive a high speed generator. Thus the "ammo" for the laser is no longer limited by custom nasty liquid fuels, but by the available jet fuel in the plane, which already has an extensive refueling infrastructure readily available, aka a tanker refuel.
Though that brings up the ugly issue of energy management in a modern fighter with electric DE weaponry. The available number of shots is limited by the onboard jet fuel, so you have to balance flight mission range with offensive/defensive needs. Which either forces tankers to get closer to the action, or committing to a lot of back and forth runs to pick up more fuel and ultimately limiting the war load. Though this could easily be mitigated by using a cheaper UCAV fleet, which could be teamed with manned fighters directing the DE weaponry via something like Link16. You have this constantly shift rotating swarm fleet of drones that you can call down DE strikes at will. Cue SkyNet.
Looks at the facts: very high power, portable, limited firing time, unlimited range.
All you'd need is a big spinning mirror and you could vaporize a human target from space.
Seriously, how many times to I have to ask this. The Razer needs a total of SIX plasma cannons; two mounted on the tips of its wings and 4 along the hull. This prototype they've sent us will do for now, but what are lazers supposed to do againt giant frickin mechs? and don't get me started on projectile weaponry. With an aerial combat vehicle like this we get one shot at a stealth strike, and a one shot one kill weapon is the best we can hope for.
I ain't taking this on any test runs until you deliver me some real firepower.
(kudos to anyone who gets the reference)
If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
My city is so profitable I drive over two brand new bridges every day, and over or under 4 more that are less than 4 years old. Guess I'm safe.
If I recall correctly, the original plan was to put this in the F35. Take out the lift fan, and use the driveshaft to power a generator.
I read that as "I would like an elephant weapon from an more civilized age."
I thought, "What kind of weapon is an 'elephant weapon'? And before I could stop myself, I had a mental picture of an elephant slamming into a Mig fighter.
A dolphin with a laser taped to its head, nailed to an airplane?!!
THIS IS MADNESS!
5kg, 750 J? Seriously?
Wake me when 5kgs of marine mammal weapon systems produce 4.5E17 J.
(founded 95,000,000 yrs ago, very space opera)
is that it's a laser Canon, so it makes prints and copies too! Nothing like taking out your enemies with laser clarity, high resolution, and extreme prejudice.
Could a mirror deflect a laser cannon blast? Or should we just stick to the more conventional deflector shields? Full power to shields!
No, it does not.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
I think you nailed the key problem. Any laser energy hitting human skin is likely to be absorbed as heating water. The human body is 60% water, and water requires a great deal of energy to boil and do significant damage. Essentially, if the person remains still, the laser beam will cause serious surface burning. The natural reaction for a person being burned is to move. If the person moves, the laser may only do superficial damage. If the person is wearing clothes and moving, getting hit by a 750W laser might equate to a nasty soldering iron or welding burn. It might hurt, but it won't slow down an enemy soldier in combat.
Who wouldn't want a pool full?
That's the sound *mine* is going to make, I'll tell you that for sure right now however the the laser emitter itself will probably make something more like a quiet hum.
Would body armor for this weapon involve covering your self in something like tinsel to refract as much of the energy as possible? It would just be awesome to see a bunch of highly trained marines running around in Christmas Tree outfits.
neorush
The amount of energy imparted has little to do with actual weapon performance. What matters is how well that energy is imparted to the subject/target. This is why many consider the .45ACP (a cartridge which has relatively little energy) a better stopping caliber than, say, .223 Remmington/5.56 NATO (which has a relatively larger energy). The percentage of PE to energy imparted from the .45 is significantly higher than from the .223 (which tends to just pass on through) due to bullet design.
To get a laser cannon capable of "stopping power" (regardless of your target) you would need to, essentially, burn a crater into or a hole through the subject. I have no idea how much power is required for that, but if we're talking about kjoules, we haven't got nearly the technology for it. The article is pure fantasy: short of portable, weapon magazine ("clip") like nuclear power cells capable of short, multiple, controlled explosions, this won't be actionable for some time.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
More than that requires overpressure variants (P+, +P+) or lighter-than-normal bullets.
P+/+P+ loads impose more wear and tear on the frame/slide, so I say using them is madness. Many use these in IPSC to achieve greater "power factor."
'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
Cue the Former US president. He would be all smiles.
Star Wars was his idea after all. Of course, I'm talking about Ronald Ray-Gun.
You need to keep the laser right on the same spot for almost one second to place the same energy as a 9mm ?
Then it is unusable by humans. Need a robot and static targets to work.
the US taxpayer money is obviously hard at work again. The Taliban must be shaking in their boots when they hear of this... "A jetfighter with a laser?!?! How much rock can it penetrate?".
The laser is nailed to the head, so that it won't fall off during high speed maneuvers and the fish* is taped to the airplane so that it can be dropped on commando raids deep behind enemy lines - granted, they just sorta flop around on the ground afterward, but anyone walking by is likely to get quite a sunburn.
*Yes, we've been *told* they are mammals, but I believe its all a conspiracy started by the "late"** Douglas Adams to ensure that they wouldn't be seen as cannibals during the pre-release marketing for his fourth book in the trilogy.
**I put late in quotes because we know that he's just gone home.***
***OK, I've got nothing... POPCORN!
We are agents of the free
Lets put that into terms every slashdotter will understand.
And then you go using centimeters instead of inches. FOR SHAME.
Alex Jones? Is that you in there?
Over 350 comments and no one has mentioned Stormtroopers (from 40k) carrying hellguns or made jokes about the AP value of these new weapons? For shame, Slashdot, for shame.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Erik
Stealth Harrier Armored Ray Kannon or S.H.A.R.K. is the latest is fighter laser technology!
sry the best I could do on short notice... you do better, I dare you!
There has to be some way to put Frickin into an acronym for the shark laser. That way it truly would be sharks with F.R.I.C.K.I.N. lasers on their heads. I guess you could lose the C if needed.
I've seen you mention taking a gun into the grocery store multiple times. I really feel sorry for anyone who lives (or shops) in such a bad area that they have to take a gun to the grocery store.
"Well, time to get the groceries. Come on honey, get the kids in the van! Whoops, better take my large-caliber handgun. In case I have to kill someone....while getting groceries..."
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
We need shorter expirations on war crimes treaties.
Am the only one to percieve the heading like this ?
yes, but what if that energy is focused on a 1 sq cm area? then you would be heating 1ml of tissue by about 170 degrees C. If you managed to do that in, say 1/10 of a second then you would have explosive vaporization of that tissue, the shock-wave of which causing damage to the surrounding tissues. Maybe not quite as bad as a bullet wound, but still a severe injury.
I can't get the article to load, but that claim sure underwhelms me. So the author thinks it would be useful to put something that emits the equivalent of the muzzle energy of a 9mm (presumably Parabellum) pistol round per second? Even if that meant the beam had the destructive potential of such a round, it would be a ridiculous weapon for a very expensive, very fast fighter plane—they have automatic cannon that fire armor-piercing, tank killing shells, they have electric "gatling guns" that can fire thousands of rounds a second, they have missiles that can kill or destroy at great distances. And we're supposed to think it's a good idea to mount the equivalent of a pistol on such a plane? As for blinding enemies...well sure it might work for that. But why not just obliterate them?
In any case, comparing the kinetic energy of a projectile to the energy of a laser beam is not useful. While energy is pretty much irrelevant in pistol calibers (they are just good for making holes), the kinetic energy of a 5.56 NATO round can cause considerable damage if it tumbles inside you. A tungsten or depleted uranium 2cm cannon projectile has a lot more energy, and does correspondingly more damage. The problem with a laser is that unless you can deliver a lot of energy in a very small amount of time, you will wind up spreading that energy over a large surface area as your beam moves over your target, which is presumably not holding still and offering itself for frying. Then there are other factors that mitigate the effects of lasers as weapons; for example, if you manage to vaporize some metal on your target, the cloud of vapor may diffuse your beam, thus preventing it from doing further damage. A laser is also going to have trouble shooting through clouds, fog, or even rain.
I'm not saying we're never going to get science fictional blasters, but this is a long way from a useful weapon. By the way, does the 5kg include the battery? How many seconds of continuous fire is the battery good for? Dang, wish I could get the article to load.
Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
OK, lets do the calcs a different way -- it takes 2500 J/g to heat water from 37'C and vaporize it at atm pressure (100'C). So the 703 J will flash 0.275 g of water (about 5 drops) which will occupy about 440 mL as steam. Hardly explosive on a macroscale. Still, very nasty on the retinas.
Laser cauterize wounds. We need a laser that leaves you bleeding!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
I think of a time when I can leave the room, flick a switch, come back, and sweep up the dead bugs and feed them to my fish.
-- Each tock of the Planck clock is a new world and here we are still life. --
I imagine that these type laser weapons will first be seen in UAV's anyway. They are kind of perfect when you think about it because they can attack soft targets so well. Like say a group of miscreants planting a roadside bomb. You just fire the laser and if there is something explosive, it blows up in the face of the person planting it.
Awwww. He fall down and go boom.
You can't use dolphin strength to estimate shark strength. Dolphins are larger (than most types of sharks) and have greater power. The move their fins up and down, not side to side like sharks. sheesh! We'll never get freakin lasers on sharks!
If only it were possible for a person to tell the difference, oh flaming philosopher!..
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.