....even the precious Mac, require some level of competency.....
Why does there have to be a special program or other fancy procedure to install an ordinary program on a computer. On a 'precious Mac' most programs just get dragged fron the source CD disk or disk image to wherever the user likes to have the program and then the program runs. That simplicity has not yet dawned on Linux programmers. Even MS office for the Mac is a simple drag and drop operation from the original CD disk. For the installation of hardware support there may be need for a special installer program, since the hardware drivers have to be located in special places where the system can find and access them. I just recently got a new laser printer. The whole installation thereof was just a single mouse click and the entering of a system admin password. Until ALL flavors of Linux are uniformly simple like this, the whole article this thread is based on is just a huge pile of sour grapes. The Linux camp has to agree on ONE SINGLE version that all hardware makers can support and that is SIMPLE to use for ordinary users. Until that day comes, Linux will remain a wonderful OS for nerds only.
.....Most of those $5000+ printers are bought by relatively large companies.....
Color laser printers are within the price range of small businesses and individuals these days. This means that the number of people using a given printer can be quite small, often only one or two persons. However, as these printers become more common and numerous, they'll also be bought and sold frequently and then tracing a particular printer will become more difficult and sometimes impossible. If I sell my old printer at a flea market for cash to someone, then it will be difficult for me to be blamed for some nefarious activity that printer was used for after I sold it. The buyer gets asked: "Where and from whom did you get that printer?" "At the flea market and I don't know the guy". Weapons used fore crime are not always traceable either.
.......Six months and one day later that printer is used for some kidnapping randsom note......
Hey here is an opportunity for a business! Start a printer laundering operation. Buy and sell printers, but promise to and do not keep records who buys what printers and their serial numbers. Someone who wished to be an anonymous conterfeiter could buy a printer from you that you had acquired from some other anonymous counterfeiter. After a few such trades, all the printers become untraceable. The Feds willl get the serial numbers from the dots, but unless they already have a suspect's printer, they won't know whose door to break in. They will have the serial numbers of every conterfeiter's printer, but have no way of knowing which counterfeiter counterfeited what and where they might find a counterfeiter without arresting every counterfeiter and checking out if the counterfeit came from a particular conterfeiters printer. Of course if this took off, it might become against the law to launder printers.
....and the theory holds up to all the available data, you act as if the theory were true and make decisions based on that.....
The problem is that the AVAILABLE data is insufficient to base far reaching policy decisions on. There is also a body of equally insufficient data that shows that the warming has other than human causes. The only reasonably certain part of the data so far is that it is getting warmer (by some fractions of degrees), but there is no way that there is enough data to conclusively prove or disprove that man is the cause of the slight warming we measure. Predicting tomorrows weather is uncertain often because of there is not enough data to put into the computer. This is even true more so for long term weather forecasting and doubly true for climate predictions. Any kind of "as if it were true" is not good enough to mess up the economy of the US or any other country, but only SURE knowledge is and we don't have that YET.
....means our climate models need to be heavily questioned and refined.....
Most people here at/. know about GIGO (garbage in- garbage out) concerning computers. Much of the data as well as the algorithms put into the computer models is either unknown guesswork or patently false. For example, as another poster (#13786304) pointed out, CO2 is NOT the most important greenhouse gas by far, but water vapor is.
When the atmosphere gets warmer, it can hold more water and therefore it is a much greater factor than CO2 in any possible warming. How is water vapor modelled in these climate predictions? Making important policy decisions on unknown and incomplete input of conjectured computer models is not a smart idea.
.....a period like the "little ice age" of a few centuries ago that disrupted worldwide weather patterns.....
Yeah, and all that was caused by the farts of cows and horses because automobiles and other fossil fuel burning modes of transport had not yet been invented.
Exactly. Just because it is getting warmer, that doesn't explain why. Also a fraction of a degree may not be all that significant in the long run.
From the Article: Many climatologists, along with policymakers in a number of countries, believe the rapid temperature rise over the past 50 years is heavily driven by the burning of fossil fuels.....
Making laws and screwing up the US and other industrial countries economy on what some or many scientist BELIEVE is gross foolishness. Believing I think is for religions, but then much of science is just another religion. Many, if not most scientific journals contain lots of what I call "faith" words. If we assume, it is generally thought that... and other similar constructs are common. A computer model that doesn't contain only all SURELY KNOWN DATA, but also some "guesses" in its input will produce an uncertain output upon which no political decisons affecting millions should be based. The fact is that there is just not enough known data on what causes the warming.
Policies and laws should based on sure, certain, uncontrovertibe KNOWLEDGE, not someone's or even everyone's BELIEF. At one time "reputable scientists" believed that light took no time to travel any distance and that the Earth was flat. It took 50 years before these "scientists" accepted Roemer's and others measurements that put a finite limit on how fast light moves. Science should not be based on the beliefs of the high priests of science and their assumptions, but on solid, measured observations and experimental, repeatable results. The interpretation of these results based on belief should not guide policy, only the results themselves.
.....why not ban all parents from being around their children....
It seems you are putting children and adults into the same bag. Presumeably, adults know things (or at least are supposed to) that children do not. I don't think that the government should ban children from the net either, but should educate parents to properly instruct and supervise their children in how to use the Internet safely as well as looking both ways before crossing a busy street. Why single out the Internet among the many dangers children as well as adults face in today's modern technological society?
....So yeah, I would say that the least safe place a lot of children could be is with their parents......
Yes of course it COULD be unsafe and often IS unsafe for children of unfit parents. In your original post though it sounded like you were advocating the removal of ALL (and you do use the word all) children from all parents as a matter of state policy. That's what I was referring to in my comment about "Brave New World".
...I have to wonder why we don't take children away from all parents....
So you subscribe to the "Brave New World" idea that all children are the property of the state and that parents (mothers mainly) are nothing more than baby factories making workers and soldiers for use of the state? Maybe sometime afterwards mothers will no longer be needed because babies are made in factories.
Both the real world and cyberspace have places children should not go. Their parents should decide which those are in both cases.
....As I look around my lounge, basically all of the high tech kit is Japanese, Korean or similar in origin....
Anybody that can supply cheap labor can make stuff that was designed in the USA, such as iPods and most other hi tech stuff, yours included. They make chips in those places also using technolgy that camee from here. The EU economy, especially Germany is already precarious and unemployment is high. If or when the US economy tanks, it'll even more surely drag the rest of the world with it than what happened in the 30s. You and lots of people on your tiny island will go hungry a lot sooner than a large country like the US. Your government is one of the few sensible ones around and stood by the US against the terrorists. Your nation also became a victim of terrorists recently because, unlike you apparently, there are still some people with backbone and fortitude to stand up and resist those evil cowards.
All nations, like the Roman, British and others, empires eventually collapse and there is no reason to believe that will not be the fate of the US. However, I believe the collapse of the US will lead to a World wide collapse. Out of the ashes of that immense crash and ensuing chaos, a new World order will come as foretold centuries ago in an enduring book called the Bible. Daniel and others were shown some of the things that would happen throughout time by the One who exists outside of time and sees it all as if it had already taken place.
That dictatorial World empire, controlling every aspect of human lives through technology, will finally bring the armies of the World into the last war of history with the culminating battle in the valley called Armageddon, in the country of Israel, just north of the bitterly contested city of Jerusalem. If God Himself would not personally intervene at the last moment, humans would use the weapons of mass destructions they have already created to extinguish all life on the planet. Only after that will the wonderful predictions also come true, such as man learning war no more and the lion lying down with the lamb. Jesus Christ Himself will be the ruler of the World and there will be peace on this tormented globe at last.
.....ever to actually use a weapon of mass destruction.......
You conveniently forget that the weapon was used against a despotic Emperor supported by a fantical military machine that attacked the US first. They had vowed to fight to the last man standing. The main reason they surrendered after getting nuked was that they did not know that the US only had two of those devices. The thought that if they did not give up, the US would make their entire country look like ground zero.....whether you believe that the US today still honours the principles of that constitution.....
Mostly yes the US does. In some of the countries you seem to admire and support, all UN members, terrorists, such as those in Gitanamo are summarily executed. Some of those prisoners, if returned to their countries would, filled with hatred as they are, would gladly commit suicide bombings and other terrorist acts......people have to work under those conditions.....
Maybe you are one of these that think that digging for roots and insects in the jungle are better working conditions that working in a factory making shoes or whatever. Is making war on the next village to gain a few of their resources better than working peacefully for a living?.....I have no problem with them stifling US commerce....
Exactly and neither do those at the UN that use junk science to try convince the western nations, including the US, that we are responsible for global warming and other environmental disasters. To destroy the US economic power is the main goal of that worthess piece of Kyoto toilet paper which thankfully Bush has refused to endorse.......there are active plans to construct an alternative GPS network as well.....
Fine, let them spend lots of their money to re-invent the wheel. While they are at it, they may as well build their own Internet, design and fabricate high performance microchips and write the software that runs on them, not using our patents and copyrights.....if you really want anyone to believe you....
I and millions of Americans don't really care even a tiny little bit whether you believe the truth or not. About 50 years ago, a book named " The Ugly American" came out. After all those years, in spite of what you and others of your ilk think, the whole world still uses our inventions and designs, sends their best and finest to our colleges and universities, still sends their immigrants, legal or not, over here, watches our movies and TV programs, eats Mc Donalds foods, flies in our airplanes. Now they have the gall to want to control the Internet technology the taxpayers of the US paid for. Maybe in the eyes of many who think like you, the average American is even uglier than back then, but many citizens of this world have voted and still vote with their wallets every single day for US originated technology and goods. Apparently they do believe in us and gladly put their money into American pockets.
......more of your citizens will suffer from terrorism......
Yeah our citizens, as well as those of Spain, Indonesia, various African countries, Kosovo, Kuwait, Britain and many others around the world. If you study history you will know that the Europeans have been killing each other for centuries and the US had to clean up the mess of two World wars. The oil rich, autocratic Arabs can't even take care of a few million Palestinians and have tried hard many times to destroy the tiny democratic nation of Israel and would try to do so again if they did not fear the shock and awe demonstrated to them in Iraq. Iran and the Moslem world have vowed to destroy Israel, and are arming themselves with nuclear weapons.
That expensive debating club called the UN was founded among other things to do something about terrorism and bloodshed but the US had to do it with help of Britain and token assistance from some other countries. The US government, like any other is run by fallible humans, but is still limited under a constitution that has stood the test of over 200 years. What other countries of the world can you name that have had the same democratic governmental system and authority for that long?
US businesses go into third world countries and create jobs for many. The jobs may be at low wages, but conditions are still better for people who then have SOME means of earning a living rather than having nothing or nearly so. People like you call that exploitation.
You are right in that a lot of evil people despise the US because we stand up against their evil ambitions toward their neighbors. It is a great honor and shows that we are doing the right thing when we are despised by the many evil doers around the world. The more that evil people hate you, the more it shows that you are good.
Now the incompetents at the UN want to run the Internet so they can try to stifle and control free expression and commerce. Why has the US, since it supposedly "controls" the Internet, not stamped out porn, spam, fraud, copyright and other crime committeed in cyberspace? As long as Mr. Bush is in the White House, those DNS servers are very safe in the US and will continue to do their job for the whole world for free. The US owned and run GPS system will also be safe and useable by others around the world for not so much as a single cent.
........to get votes so it can controll the DNS servers........
Who cares if every single country in the world votes to let the UN take over the Internet servers? How will they get them away from the US? The US has veto power in the UN and will use it and that will be the the end of it.
Exactly! And that is why the world hates the USA. We got the money and are not sharing it the way many would like. Money also gives power and we are not sharing that either. Most of the US bashing is just plain envy and jealously over money. Money buys oil and a arms and a lot of other things. The world is a neighborhood and we've just got a bunch of envious neighbors.
....Next election, we are nearly guaranteed to have someone who's very different than Bush.....
I wouldn't hold my breath on that. We live in a fast moving world and any number of unforseen events can change that idea one way or another. We may get someone more to your liking, but then again there could be someone elected whom you may deem even worse that Bush. We live in a deeply divided country and world and there are may outside of the US that have hated the US for a long time. In the end it is money that rules the world and at this point the US still has the most of that. Money buys power, including military power. In the absence of love and respect, Mao is right. Power comes form the barrel of a gun and it takes money to buy that gun.
....Religions dwell in the unexplored and unknown places, which our reasoning mind is unable to explain....
Is that not that not also the quest of science? If someone from say ancient Rome could be time travelled to our time, would he not think that most of our technology is magic? Jesus turned water into wine. We can make wine from grapes, but not by the method He employed and so we call it a miracle. Is wine not, like everything else an arragement of atoms? Don't you think the One who made the atoms might know a few things about them that we don't YET? The Apostle Paul tells us "Now we see in a glass darkly, but then we shall know as we are also known by God..." Do not science and religion both seek truth, but by different methods? We call something we cannot explain or understand a miracle, but that is not so when we eventually DO undertand. I believe that the accounts in the Bible as written in the ORIGINAL language of Hebrew does not in any way contradict any scientific observations. It may contradict our explanation of either or both we give for the observation and the text. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that creation happened 6000 years or so ago, yet some have INTERPRETED it that way. The majestic opening verse of the Bible in no way contradicts our present understanding of the formation of the cosmos.
"In the beginning (time) God, (the agent) created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter-energy)"
Scientists now call this "The Big Bang"
In multiple places scripture mentions the idea of the heavens "stretched out" which corresponds to our present understanding of the tension of space that gives rise to its measureable properties.
In these same passages we are also told that the heavens (space) will one day be rolled up like a scroll and disappear. To roll something up, there has to be a dimension which it can be rolled up into. Cosmologists postulate and mathematically describe the existence for higher dimension than the present four we are familiar with. We are also told in the Bible that the things which are seen are made from that which cannot show up. Science did not discover that fact until relatively recently and millions are still spent in trying to figure out what "stuff" is made of.
Unlike the Gods of all other religions which are contained in or part of this time-space Universe (may the Force be with you) we find ourselves in, the God of the Bible is revealed to be "the One who inhabits eternity", that is transcendent, outside the walls of our existence.
All religions which have some kind of god, higher consciousness or whatever are all upward directed. Follow these rules etc. and live this or that way and you will attain the goal of this or that religion. Unfortunately, the Christians have also gone down this road even though the Bible teaches just the opposite. It is not that we by any kind of effort can approach or work toward the goal of reaching or understanding God, but that God came down here in human form to reach us and bring us into a relationship with Himself based on love.
To me science shows the awsomeness and majesty of God. In my 32 years at Stanford University, the research I participated in immeasureably strengthened my respect and immense admiration of the incredible mind that came up with all the things we discovered there.
Some scientists have gone so far as to state that the entire Universe may just be a thought or simulation in a super mind. The Bible also suggest this. The movie "The Matrix" played very creatively with that idea. The more we discover in science the more we find out how little we know. Every time we answer one question, a hundred other ones pop up.
In my mind, the truth of science and the truth revealed in the Bible are complementary, not contradictory. Since we don't have perfect knowlege of either science or all of what is revealed in the Bible, it is foolish to throw rocks into each other's houses. Both the discoveries of science and the texts of the Bible are subject to interpretation and it these interpretations that are often at odds.
....it's purpose is to promote discussion between nations....
Exactly, right now the UN is not much more than a very expensive, bureaucratic and corrupt debating club whose members largely have an irrational hatred of the tiny nation of Israel. However, all that debate has not prevented numerous wars all over the palnet or outrageous acts of terror in many places. Someday an outgrowth of the UN will assemble the armies of the world in the Armageddon valley of that postage stamp nation for the final and greatest war of history. Only the direct personal intervention of God himself will prevent mankind from total annihilation and finally bring real peace to this troubled, pain racked Earth.
...So as a condition of employment at my companie, you must hold a copywrite the company has ouchased and agree to never use it in any interest not aproved by the company. You also agree not to religuish these rights without my company's specific permision but will do so at my company's desire.....
Such contracts, like many contracts, should be illegal. As far as taking care of your "loved ones" after you die, do what others do. Buy some life insurance. Why should the state or anyone else take care of the ones you have left behind after you die, just because you wrote something yesterday or 10 years ago. For thousands of years humans have expressed their creativity, all to the free enjoyment of every person. Copyright is a recent invention that is being greatly abused to the detriment of all people everywhere. If copyright did not exist at all, artistic people would still express their talents for the sheer joy of being creative and bringing joy to others. Most of the great composers and painters of the past did not create because there was huge money in it or even a decent living. That said, it is good to reward artists and not allow others to make money at their expense. That is exactly what the present system does. Others get rich and the artists get a pittance. Copyright law needs to be re-worked so the creators, not other hangers on get rewarded. I don't see much chance of that happening because most of our legislators have been bought and paid for by corporations and others with large amounts of money.
.....As I said, your religious dogma demands that science be treated as a competing religion......
First off, I'd like to say that we've strayed far off the original theme of this thread of the UN wanting to run the Internet. But that's what makes/. an interesting place. Geeks and nerds are human and like to discuss human issues not always invoving only geeky subjects.
I don't think that faith and science are in competition, but are complementary. In our daily lives it is completely impossible to live without faith in things and people. When you get on an airplane, you have faith that the airplane is airworthy and that the mechanics and all the others involved with it have done their jobs faithfully. You don't KNOW if that plane will get you to your destination rather than crash somwhere. Experience with airplanes and faith and trust in the people running them teaches you that most of the time the plane will get you to where you want to go, even if sometimes your luggage goes elsewhere. You don't know or care about wings and engines because you have faith in the people that do know that stuff. Sometimes these things fail and planes DO crash. So you take a risk based on your faith. My example of airplanes applies to countless other situations each of us encounter every day.
Nobody, especially scientists understands everything they observe and measure, but whether we understand something or not makes it neither true nor false. The underlying assumption or faith of evolution is that everything in our world came about by probalistic impersonal processes and that no conscious thought went into anything. I happen to assume or believe that a supremely intelligent, conscious and wise mind put it all together and is pleased to allow us to explore His handiwork and the laws that control this universe. I believe that as we see the incredible complexity of the human body and other living things, an appreciation, wonder and awe might be in order. As to how or what originated God, who can say. Belief in a God who loves order and harmony is what prompted early scientists or actively explore His creation. Belief in a creative God doesn't influence the design of a car or a nuclear power plant, neither does belief in evolution.
You and every human on this planet is incurably religious, whether you like it or not. Religion is the one thing in kind, not just in degree that separates us from the animals. You may not worship a "god" in the traditional sense, but whatever or whoever is more important to you than anything else is your "god". For many in our culture the pursuit of posessions and power are the objects of their "worship". For some it is science and technology. For many it is self and pleasure. For some it is confidently asserting that there is "no God", such as militant atheists. If you are honest with yourself, you too can determine who or what is your "god".
....So by your definition, it is impossible to determine that the Sun's energy comes from thermonuclear ractions, neither it is possible to determine the aging process of stars, formation of galaxies and any other phenomena......
No, not at all! There is a basic difference between experimental, observational science and evolution based on unprovable underlying assumptions. Of course one can do experiments in fusion etc and they work the SAME each and every time with the same parameters. We can measure that an electron is exactly 1836 time less massive than a proton, but nobody can explain how or why it came to be exactly that and not some other ratio. We also know if it were not exactly that number we would not be here to measure it. What makes the speed of light what it is or the force of gravity its measured strength? How did all the laws by which evolution supposedly takes place came to be exactly as they are? To me all that originated in a mind.
Living things embody incredible amounts of INFORMATION in the digital codes of DNA. Where does the information stored in your computer as well as the computer itself come from? To have a working computer, the hardware and software have to be designed together by one or more human minds. What came first, the DNA that carries the software information needed to make protein or the hardware protein that makes the DNA? Does it not all come from a MIND? So why is it so preposterous to say that the information content in living things also comes from a mind? There is lots of disagreement as to the nature of this mind and that is the realm of religion. No man is without religion. God cannot be proved or disproved by any experiment or measurement.
What you term evolution in micro-organismas is only adaptation. A coccus type of bacteria will always be that and a fruit fly will always be one. You may adapt their characteristics, but all experimentation with them has never come up with anything but seemingly endless variations, but nevertheless still always ONLY fruit flies. Moths can adapt to a changing environment by adapting their dominant coloring or other characteristics, but will still ALWAYS be moths, never butterflies or bees. There are inumnerable kinds of ants, but they are still always ants.
Name me a transitional fossil say from a reptile to a mammal, a cat to a dog, or any other progression from one kind to another. All experiments and breeding have always PROVED that certain boundaries are NEVER crossed. These boundaries are not always what have been given the term "species". No EXPERIMENT was ever done anywhere to demonstrate that kind of evolution.
When complex weather or other models are made, there is often missing input which is then replaced by assumptions which may or may not be reasonable or correct. You know, garbage in, garbage out. Any time you don't absolutely KNOW a parameter and make a guess, albeit an educated one, I call that faith, reasonable faith maybe, but faith nevertheless. You call it "optimization" or fudging.
You can flip a coin a million times and there will be roughly 500,000 heads and about the same number of tails. Nobody has ever done this experiment and come up with 999,900 heads and 100 tails. If you did flip a coin and that happened, you better get a number of coins and repeat the experiment because that particular coin must be rigged in some way. To me, all scientific theory, before it can be accepted as "truth" must be proveable by experiments or objective measurements which can be done repeatedly and ALWAYS without exception have the same outcome. Any other "truth" is nothing else than faith and who is to say that your faith in evolution is any better than any other faith?
....While one can argue that the scientific method is a form of philosophy.....
The scientific method is not a philosophy if it confines itself to what can be verified in a lab. When two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen are combined chemically, it makes water EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is verifiable science, a repeatable experiment that can be done anywhere and by anyone and the outcome will ALWAYS be the same. What experiment has ever been done to show that a fish can evolve into a bird or whatever? What experiment has ever been done to create even a simple living cell from non-living matter? So far, fish have always made more fish and birds more birds. That is an observational fact. Adding large amounts of time doesn't change the OBSERVED record of the fossils either. No transitional life forms have ever been found because there are none.
Even in ordinary weather forecasting, to say nothing of long term global warming, many assumptions (faith) are input into the computer models and so the 'science' of metereology is really an art with a large measure of unknown conjecture and faith input. That is why some have shoveled a few feet of 'partly cloudy' off their driveways from time to time and hurricanes have gone off course from where the computer models predicted.
Like I wrote, scientific journals spouting evolution are filled with faith words, which makes that a religion, like any other. The difference is that the evolutionist believers have convinced most of us and themselves that their beliefs are not a religion and evolution has become the official religion of the USA and is taught as truth in our schools.
....You missed a possibility: we evolve into something better.....
Too bad history shows the opposite tendency. What indications can you come up with that shows humanity moving in the direction of lasting peace? You also assume evolution is true, rather than being only a key tenet in the religion of science.
All that has changed for humanity is that we now can kill each other using sophisticated remote controlled weapons and by the millions at once rather than one at a time with blades in close and personal combat. Your hope is wishful thinking unfortunately.
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....even the precious Mac, require some level of competency.....
Why does there have to be a special program or other fancy procedure to install an ordinary program on a computer. On a 'precious Mac' most programs just get dragged fron the source CD disk or disk image to wherever the user likes to have the program and then the program runs. That simplicity has not yet dawned on Linux programmers. Even MS office for the Mac is a simple drag and drop operation from the original CD disk. For the installation of hardware support there may be need for a special installer program, since the hardware drivers have to be located in special places where the system can find and access them. I just recently got a new laser printer. The whole installation thereof was just a single mouse click and the entering of a system admin password. Until ALL flavors of Linux are uniformly simple like this, the whole article this thread is based on is just a huge pile of sour grapes. The Linux camp has to agree on ONE SINGLE version that all hardware makers can support and that is SIMPLE to use for ordinary users. Until that day comes, Linux will remain a wonderful OS for nerds only.
.....Most of those $5000+ printers are bought by relatively large companies.....
Color laser printers are within the price range of small businesses and individuals these days. This means that the number of people using a given printer can be quite small, often only one or two persons. However, as these printers become more common and numerous, they'll also be bought and sold frequently and then tracing a particular printer will become more difficult and sometimes impossible. If I sell my old printer at a flea market for cash to someone, then it will be difficult for me to be blamed for some nefarious activity that printer was used for after I sold it. The buyer gets asked: "Where and from whom did you get that printer?" "At the flea market and I don't know the guy". Weapons used fore crime are not always traceable either.
.......Six months and one day later that printer is used for some kidnapping randsom note......
Hey here is an opportunity for a business! Start a printer laundering operation. Buy and sell printers, but promise to and do not keep records who buys what printers and their serial numbers. Someone who wished to be an anonymous conterfeiter could buy a printer from you that you had acquired from some other anonymous counterfeiter. After a few such trades, all the printers become untraceable. The Feds willl get the serial numbers from the dots, but unless they already have a suspect's printer, they won't know whose door to break in. They will have the serial numbers of every conterfeiter's printer, but have no way of knowing which counterfeiter counterfeited what and where they might find a counterfeiter without arresting every counterfeiter and checking out if the counterfeit came from a particular conterfeiters printer. Of course if this took off, it might become against the law to launder printers.
....and the theory holds up to all the available data, you act as if the theory were true and make decisions based on that.....
The problem is that the AVAILABLE data is insufficient to base far reaching policy decisions on. There is also a body of equally insufficient data that shows that the warming has other than human causes. The only reasonably certain part of the data so far is that it is getting warmer (by some fractions of degrees), but there is no way that there is enough data to conclusively prove or disprove that man is the cause of the slight warming we measure. Predicting tomorrows weather is uncertain often because of there is not enough data to put into the computer. This is even true more so for long term weather forecasting and doubly true for climate predictions. Any kind of "as if it were true" is not good enough to mess up the economy of the US or any other country, but only SURE knowledge is and we don't have that YET.
....means our climate models need to be heavily questioned and refined.....
/. know about GIGO (garbage in- garbage out) concerning computers. Much of the data as well as the algorithms put into the computer models is either unknown guesswork or patently false. For example, as another poster (#13786304) pointed out, CO2 is NOT the most important greenhouse gas by far, but water vapor is.
Most people here at
When the atmosphere gets warmer, it can hold more water and therefore it is a much greater factor than CO2 in any possible warming. How is water vapor modelled in these climate predictions? Making important policy decisions on unknown and incomplete input of conjectured computer models is not a smart idea.
.....a period like the "little ice age" of a few centuries ago that disrupted worldwide weather patterns.....
Yeah, and all that was caused by the farts of cows and horses because automobiles and other fossil fuel burning modes of transport had not yet been invented.
....Correlation is not causation....
Exactly. Just because it is getting warmer, that doesn't explain why. Also a fraction of a degree may not be all that significant in the long run.
From the Article:
Many climatologists, along with policymakers in a number of countries, believe the rapid temperature rise over the past 50 years is heavily driven by the burning of fossil fuels.....
Making laws and screwing up the US and other industrial countries economy on what some or many scientist BELIEVE is gross foolishness. Believing I think is for religions, but then much of science is just another religion. Many, if not most scientific journals contain lots of what I call "faith" words. If we assume, it is generally thought that... and other similar constructs are common. A computer model that doesn't contain only all SURELY KNOWN DATA, but also some "guesses" in its input will produce an uncertain output upon which no political decisons affecting millions should be based. The fact is that there is just not enough known data on what causes the warming.
Policies and laws should based on sure, certain, uncontrovertibe KNOWLEDGE, not someone's or even everyone's BELIEF. At one time "reputable scientists" believed that light took no time to travel any distance and that the Earth was flat. It took 50 years before these "scientists" accepted Roemer's and others measurements that put a finite limit on how fast light moves. Science should not be based on the beliefs of the high priests of science and their assumptions, but on solid, measured observations and experimental, repeatable results. The interpretation of these results based on belief should not guide policy, only the results themselves.
.....why not ban all parents from being around their children ....
It seems you are putting children and adults into the same bag. Presumeably, adults know things (or at least are supposed to) that children do not. I don't think that the government should ban children from the net either, but should educate parents to properly instruct and supervise their children in how to use the Internet safely as well as looking both ways before crossing a busy street. Why single out the Internet among the many dangers children as well as adults face in today's modern technological society?
....So yeah, I would say that the least safe place a lot of children could be is with their parents......
Yes of course it COULD be unsafe and often IS unsafe for children of unfit parents. In your original post though it sounded like you were advocating the removal of ALL (and you do use the word all) children from all parents as a matter of state policy. That's what I was referring to in my comment about "Brave New World".
.......The religious nut job act pretty much gave you away, but nicely trolled, sir.....
I sincerely hope you live long enough to see it all happen.
...I have to wonder why we don't take children away from all parents....
So you subscribe to the "Brave New World" idea that all children are the property of the state and that parents (mothers mainly) are nothing more than baby factories making workers and soldiers for use of the state? Maybe sometime afterwards mothers will no longer be needed because babies are made in factories.
Both the real world and cyberspace have places children should not go. Their parents should decide which those are in both cases.
....As I look around my lounge, basically all of the high tech kit is Japanese, Korean or similar in origin. ...
Anybody that can supply cheap labor can make stuff that was designed in the USA, such as iPods and most other hi tech stuff, yours included. They make chips in those places also using technolgy that camee from here. The EU economy, especially Germany is already precarious and unemployment is high. If or when the US economy tanks, it'll even more surely drag the rest of the world with it than what happened in the 30s. You and lots of people on your tiny island will go hungry a lot sooner than a large country like the US. Your government is one of the few sensible ones around and stood by the US against the terrorists. Your nation also became a victim of terrorists recently because, unlike you apparently, there are still some people with backbone and fortitude to stand up and resist those evil cowards.
All nations, like the Roman, British and others, empires eventually collapse and there is no reason to believe that will not be the fate of the US. However, I believe the collapse of the US will lead to a World wide collapse. Out of the ashes of that immense crash and ensuing chaos, a new World order will come as foretold centuries ago in an enduring book called the Bible. Daniel and others were shown some of the things that would happen throughout time by the One who exists outside of time and sees it all as if it had already taken place.
That dictatorial World empire, controlling every aspect of human lives through technology, will finally bring the armies of the World into the last war of history with the culminating battle in the valley called Armageddon, in the country of Israel, just north of the bitterly contested city of Jerusalem. If God Himself would not personally intervene at the last moment, humans would use the weapons of mass destructions they have already created to extinguish all life on the planet. Only after that will the wonderful predictions also come true, such as man learning war no more and the lion lying down with the lamb. Jesus Christ Himself will be the ruler of the World and there will be peace on this tormented globe at last.
.....ever to actually use a weapon of mass destruction.......
....whether you believe that the US today still honours the principles of that constitution.....
.....people have to work under those conditions .....
.....I have no problem with them stifling US commerce....
......there are active plans to construct an alternative GPS network as well.....
....if you really want anyone to believe you....
You conveniently forget that the weapon was used against a despotic Emperor supported by a fantical military machine that attacked the US first. They had vowed to fight to the last man standing. The main reason they surrendered after getting nuked was that they did not know that the US only had two of those devices. The thought that if they did not give up, the US would make their entire country look like ground zero.
Mostly yes the US does. In some of the countries you seem to admire and support, all UN members, terrorists, such as those in Gitanamo are summarily executed. Some of those prisoners, if returned to their countries would, filled with hatred as they are, would gladly commit suicide bombings and other terrorist acts.
Maybe you are one of these that think that digging for roots and insects in the jungle are better working conditions that working in a factory making shoes or whatever. Is making war on the next village to gain a few of their resources better than working peacefully for a living?
Exactly and neither do those at the UN that use junk science to try convince the western nations, including the US, that we are responsible for global warming and other environmental disasters. To destroy the US economic power is the main goal of that worthess piece of Kyoto toilet paper which thankfully Bush has refused to endorse.
Fine, let them spend lots of their money to re-invent the wheel. While they are at it, they may as well build their own Internet, design and fabricate high performance microchips and write the software that runs on them, not using our patents and copyrights.
I and millions of Americans don't really care even a tiny little bit whether you believe the truth or not. About 50 years ago, a book named " The Ugly American" came out. After all those years, in spite of what you and others of your ilk think, the whole world still uses our inventions and designs, sends their best and finest to our colleges and universities, still sends their immigrants, legal or not, over here, watches our movies and TV programs, eats Mc Donalds foods, flies in our airplanes. Now they have the gall to want to control the Internet technology the taxpayers of the US paid for. Maybe in the eyes of many who think like you, the average American is even uglier than back then, but many citizens of this world have voted and still vote with their wallets every single day for US originated technology and goods. Apparently they do believe in us and gladly put their money into American pockets.
......more of your citizens will suffer from terrorism......
Yeah our citizens, as well as those of Spain, Indonesia, various African countries, Kosovo, Kuwait, Britain and many others around the world. If you study history you will know that the Europeans have been killing each other for centuries and the US had to clean up the mess of two World wars. The oil rich, autocratic Arabs can't even take care of a few million Palestinians and have tried hard many times to destroy the tiny democratic nation of Israel and would try to do so again if they did not fear the shock and awe demonstrated to them in Iraq. Iran and the Moslem world have vowed to destroy Israel, and are arming themselves with nuclear weapons.
That expensive debating club called the UN was founded among other things to do something about terrorism and bloodshed but the US had to do it with help of Britain and token assistance from some other countries. The US government, like any other is run by fallible humans, but is still limited under a constitution that has stood the test of over 200 years. What other countries of the world can you name that have had the same democratic governmental system and authority for that long?
US businesses go into third world countries and create jobs for many. The jobs may be at low wages, but conditions are still better for people who then have SOME means of earning a living rather than having nothing or nearly so. People like you call that exploitation.
You are right in that a lot of evil people despise the US because we stand up against their evil ambitions toward their neighbors. It is a great honor and shows that we are doing the right thing when we are despised by the many evil doers around the world. The more that evil people hate you, the more it shows that you are good.
Now the incompetents at the UN want to run the Internet so they can try to stifle and control free expression and commerce. Why has the US, since it supposedly "controls" the Internet, not stamped out porn, spam, fraud, copyright and other crime committeed in cyberspace? As long as Mr. Bush is in the White House, those DNS servers are very safe in the US and will continue to do their job for the whole world for free. The US owned and run GPS system will also be safe and useable by others around the world for not so much as a single cent.
........to get votes so it can controll the DNS servers........
Who cares if every single country in the world votes to let the UN take over the Internet servers? How will they get them away from the US? The US has veto power in the UN and will use it and that will be the the end of it.
.....Follow the money.....
Exactly! And that is why the world hates the USA. We got the money and are not sharing it the way many would like. Money also gives power and we are not sharing that either. Most of the US bashing is just plain envy and jealously over money. Money buys oil and a arms and a lot of other things. The world is a neighborhood and we've just got a bunch of envious neighbors.
....Next election, we are nearly guaranteed to have someone who's very different than Bush.....
I wouldn't hold my breath on that. We live in a fast moving world and any number of unforseen events can change that idea one way or another. We may get someone more to your liking, but then again there could be someone elected whom you may deem even worse that Bush. We live in a deeply divided country and world and there are may outside of the US that have hated the US for a long time. In the end it is money that rules the world and at this point the US still has the most of that. Money buys power, including military power. In the absence of love and respect, Mao is right. Power comes form the barrel of a gun and it takes money to buy that gun.
....Religions dwell in the unexplored and unknown places, which our reasoning mind is unable to explain....
Is that not that not also the quest of science? If someone from say ancient Rome could be time travelled to our time, would he not think that most of our technology is magic? Jesus turned water into wine. We can make wine from grapes, but not by the method He employed and so we call it a miracle. Is wine not, like everything else an arragement of atoms? Don't you think the One who made the atoms might know a few things about them that we don't YET? The Apostle Paul tells us "Now we see in a glass darkly, but then we shall know as we are also known by God..." Do not science and religion both seek truth, but by different methods? We call something we cannot explain or understand a miracle, but that is not so when we eventually DO undertand. I believe that the accounts in the Bible as written in the ORIGINAL language of Hebrew does not in any way contradict any scientific observations. It may contradict our explanation of either or both we give for the observation and the text. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that creation happened 6000 years or so ago, yet some have INTERPRETED it that way. The majestic opening verse of the Bible in no way contradicts our present understanding of the formation of the cosmos.
"In the beginning (time) God, (the agent) created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter-energy)"
Scientists now call this "The Big Bang"
In multiple places scripture mentions the idea of the heavens "stretched out" which corresponds to our present understanding of the tension of space that gives rise to its measureable properties.
In these same passages we are also told that the heavens (space) will one day be rolled up like a scroll and disappear. To roll something up, there has to be a dimension which it can be rolled up into. Cosmologists postulate and mathematically describe the existence for higher dimension than the present four we are familiar with. We are also told in the Bible that the things which are seen are made from that which cannot show up. Science did not discover that fact until relatively recently and millions are still spent in trying to figure out what "stuff" is made of.
Unlike the Gods of all other religions which are contained in or part of this time-space Universe (may the Force be with you) we find ourselves in, the God of the Bible is revealed to be "the One who inhabits eternity", that is transcendent, outside the walls of our existence.
All religions which have some kind of god, higher consciousness or whatever are all upward directed. Follow these rules etc. and live this or that way and you will attain the goal of this or that religion. Unfortunately, the Christians have also gone down this road even though the Bible teaches just the opposite. It is not that we by any kind of effort can approach or work toward the goal of reaching or understanding God, but that God came down here in human form to reach us and bring us into a relationship with Himself based on love.
To me science shows the awsomeness and majesty of God. In my 32 years at Stanford University, the research I participated in immeasureably strengthened my respect and immense admiration of the incredible mind that came up with all the things we discovered there.
Some scientists have gone so far as to state that the entire Universe may just be a thought or simulation in a super mind. The Bible also suggest this. The movie "The Matrix" played very creatively with that idea. The more we discover in science the more we find out how little we know. Every time we answer one question, a hundred other ones pop up.
In my mind, the truth of science and the truth revealed in the Bible are complementary, not contradictory. Since we don't have perfect knowlege of either science or all of what is revealed in the Bible, it is foolish to throw rocks into each other's houses. Both the discoveries of science and the texts of the Bible are subject to interpretation and it these interpretations that are often at odds.
....it's purpose is to promote discussion between nations....
Exactly, right now the UN is not much more than a very expensive, bureaucratic and corrupt debating club whose members largely have an irrational hatred of the tiny nation of Israel. However, all that debate has not prevented numerous wars all over the palnet or outrageous acts of terror in many places. Someday an outgrowth of the UN will assemble the armies of the world in the Armageddon valley of that postage stamp nation for the final and greatest war of history. Only the direct personal intervention of God himself will prevent mankind from total annihilation and finally bring real peace to this troubled, pain racked Earth.
...So as a condition of employment at my companie, you must hold a copywrite the company has ouchased and agree to never use it in any interest not aproved by the company. You also agree not to religuish these rights without my company's specific permision but will do so at my company's desire.....
Such contracts, like many contracts, should be illegal. As far as taking care of your "loved ones" after you die, do what others do. Buy some life insurance. Why should the state or anyone else take care of the ones you have left behind after you die, just because you wrote something yesterday or 10 years ago. For thousands of years humans have expressed their creativity, all to the free enjoyment of every person. Copyright is a recent invention that is being greatly abused to the detriment of all people everywhere. If copyright did not exist at all, artistic people would still express their talents for the sheer joy of being creative and bringing joy to others. Most of the great composers and painters of the past did not create because there was huge money in it or even a decent living. That said, it is good to reward artists and not allow others to make money at their expense. That is exactly what the present system does. Others get rich and the artists get a pittance. Copyright law needs to be re-worked so the creators, not other hangers on get rewarded. I don't see much chance of that happening because most of our legislators have been bought and paid for by corporations and others with large amounts of money.
.....As I said, your religious dogma demands that science be treated as a competing religion......
/. an interesting place. Geeks and nerds are human and like to discuss human issues not always invoving only geeky subjects.
First off, I'd like to say that we've strayed far off the original theme of this thread of the UN wanting to run the Internet. But that's what makes
I don't think that faith and science are in competition, but are complementary. In our daily lives it is completely impossible to live without faith in things and people. When you get on an airplane, you have faith that the airplane is airworthy and that the mechanics and all the others involved with it have done their jobs faithfully. You don't KNOW if that plane will get you to your destination rather than crash somwhere. Experience with airplanes and faith and trust in the people running them teaches you that most of the time the plane will get you to where you want to go, even if sometimes your luggage goes elsewhere. You don't know or care about wings and engines because you have faith in the people that do know that stuff. Sometimes these things fail and planes DO crash. So you take a risk based on your faith. My example of airplanes applies to countless other situations each of us encounter every day.
Nobody, especially scientists understands everything they observe and measure, but whether we understand something or not makes it neither true nor false. The underlying assumption or faith of evolution is that everything in our world came about by probalistic impersonal processes and that no conscious thought went into anything. I happen to assume or believe that a supremely intelligent, conscious and wise mind put it all together and is pleased to allow us to explore His handiwork and the laws that control this universe. I believe that as we see the incredible complexity of the human body and other living things, an appreciation, wonder and awe might be in order. As to how or what originated God, who can say. Belief in a God who loves order and harmony is what prompted early scientists or actively explore His creation. Belief in a creative God doesn't influence the design of a car or a nuclear power plant, neither does belief in evolution.
You and every human on this planet is incurably religious, whether you like it or not. Religion is the one thing in kind, not just in degree that separates us from the animals. You may not worship a "god" in the traditional sense, but whatever or whoever is more important to you than anything else is your "god". For many in our culture the pursuit of posessions and power are the objects of their "worship". For some it is science and technology. For many it is self and pleasure. For some it is confidently asserting that there is "no God", such as militant atheists. If you are honest with yourself, you too can determine who or what is your "god".
....So by your definition, it is impossible to determine that the Sun's energy comes from thermonuclear ractions, neither it is possible to determine the aging process of stars, formation of galaxies and any other phenomena......
No, not at all! There is a basic difference between experimental, observational science and evolution based on unprovable underlying assumptions. Of course one can do experiments in fusion etc and they work the SAME each and every time with the same parameters. We can measure that an electron is exactly 1836 time less massive than a proton, but nobody can explain how or why it came to be exactly that and not some other ratio. We also know if it were not exactly that number we would not be here to measure it. What makes the speed of light what it is or the force of gravity its measured strength? How did all the laws by which evolution supposedly takes place came to be exactly as they are? To me all that originated in a mind.
Living things embody incredible amounts of INFORMATION in the digital codes of DNA. Where does the information stored in your computer as well as the computer itself come from? To have a working computer, the hardware and software have to be designed together by one or more human minds. What came first, the DNA that carries the software information needed to make protein or the hardware protein that makes the DNA? Does it not all come from a MIND? So why is it so preposterous to say that the information content in living things also comes from a mind? There is lots of disagreement as to the nature of this mind and that is the realm of religion. No man is without religion. God cannot be proved or disproved by any experiment or measurement.
What you term evolution in micro-organismas is only adaptation. A coccus type of bacteria will always be that and a fruit fly will always be one. You may adapt their characteristics, but all experimentation with them has never come up with anything but seemingly endless variations, but nevertheless still always ONLY fruit flies. Moths can adapt to a changing environment by adapting their dominant coloring or other characteristics, but will still ALWAYS be moths, never butterflies or bees. There are inumnerable kinds of ants, but they are still always ants.
Name me a transitional fossil say from a reptile to a mammal, a cat to a dog, or any other progression from one kind to another. All experiments and breeding have always PROVED that certain boundaries are NEVER crossed. These boundaries are not always what have been given the term "species". No EXPERIMENT was ever done anywhere to demonstrate that kind of evolution.
When complex weather or other models are made, there is often missing input which is then replaced by assumptions which may or may not be reasonable or correct. You know, garbage in, garbage out. Any time you don't absolutely KNOW a parameter and make a guess, albeit an educated one, I call that faith, reasonable faith maybe, but faith nevertheless. You call it "optimization" or fudging.
You can flip a coin a million times and there will be roughly 500,000 heads and about the same number of tails. Nobody has ever done this experiment and come up with 999,900 heads and 100 tails. If you did flip a coin and that happened, you better get a number of coins and repeat the experiment because that particular coin must be rigged in some way. To me, all scientific theory, before it can be accepted as "truth" must be proveable by experiments or objective measurements which can be done repeatedly and ALWAYS without exception have the same outcome. Any other "truth" is nothing else than faith and who is to say that your faith in evolution is any better than any other faith?
....While one can argue that the scientific method is a form of philosophy.....
The scientific method is not a philosophy if it confines itself to what can be verified in a lab. When two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen are combined chemically, it makes water EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is verifiable science, a repeatable experiment that can be done anywhere and by anyone and the outcome will ALWAYS be the same. What experiment has ever been done to show that a fish can evolve into a bird or whatever? What experiment has ever been done to create even a simple living cell from non-living matter? So far, fish have always made more fish and birds more birds. That is an observational fact. Adding large amounts of time doesn't change the OBSERVED record of the fossils either. No transitional life forms have ever been found because there are none.
Even in ordinary weather forecasting, to say nothing of long term global warming, many assumptions (faith) are input into the computer models and so the 'science' of metereology is really an art with a large measure of unknown conjecture and faith input. That is why some have shoveled a few feet of 'partly cloudy' off their driveways from time to time and hurricanes have gone off course from where the computer models predicted.
Like I wrote, scientific journals spouting evolution are filled with faith words, which makes that a religion, like any other. The difference is that the evolutionist believers have convinced most of us and themselves that their beliefs are not a religion and evolution has become the official religion of the USA and is taught as truth in our schools.
....You missed a possibility: we evolve into something better.....
Too bad history shows the opposite tendency. What indications can you come up with that shows humanity moving in the direction of lasting peace? You also assume evolution is true, rather than being only a key tenet in the religion of science.
All that has changed for humanity is that we now can kill each other using sophisticated remote controlled weapons and by the millions at once rather than one at a time with blades in close and personal combat. Your hope is wishful thinking unfortunately.
.... It has been involved in preventing several wars which may have ultimately resulted in the deaths of every American citizen, however.....
Where did you get THAT? What wars has the UN prevented?