Then you're doing it wrong. And if you had half as much experience as you claim to have in this and your other post, you would understand that.
Says you. While your opinion is interesting you haven't proved or disproved the value of anything here, just offered your opinion. There's a nonzero chance I've done more than you think.
You go on to further my point about you not really knowing what you're talking about when in other posts you talk about the x86 emulator written JavaScript as if thats supposed to be something to show how awesome it is. When you make that awesome emulator there out run my copy of QEMU without kmod, then perhaps I'll give you a listen, but you've got to be absolutely retarded to actually think JavaScript as a language has a technical reason for it to be faster than compiled C in reality, you being unable to write quality C withstanding.
I've written emulators and computer languages and interpreters. To be able to edit and compile and run a program in linux, running under emulation in a browser window in js it quite a piece of work. If you have never done something like this perhaps you don't know exactly what this implies.
But, i'll bite, show me the other language's implementation of exactly this. But there isn't one, is there? Why do you suppose that is? Do you really want to run linux under Perl? Or python? Ok, cool, make it so then I'll tell you how fast is is compared to the original unix on an 11/45. If you haven't done this how can you comments on it. It's like saying "oh apollo, pfft, it's just going to the moon" and trivializes quite an accomplishment, one that doesn't occur anywhere else and you can't do. It's just your opinion, and it's unsubstantiated.
Yes, decent Javascript can out run really really shitty C, but only if you stack the deck so that C doesn't have a chance first
I don't think you really get this. because while the above is true it's got nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Consider the impact on a multiuser system where programs are written in one of two languages, one had blocking i/o by default, one doesn't.
Cancer rates by country (Age-Standardised Rate per 100,000)
Highest 1 Denmark 326.1 2 Ireland 317.0 3 Australia 314.1 4 New Zealand 309.2 5 Belgium 306.8 6 France (metropolitan) 300.4 7 United States of America 300.2 8 Norway 299.1 9 Canada 296.6 10 Czech Republic 295.0 11 Israel 288.3 12 The Netherlands 286.8
Lowest 50 South African Republic 202.0 49 Albania 202.8 48 Montenegro 204.3 47 Romania 205.1 46 Argentina 206.2 45 Armenia 207.5 44 Barbados 207.9 43 Malta 211.4 42 Belarus 213.1 41 New Caledonia 218.5 40 Serbia 218.9
(yes, this is totally unrelated, and off topic; ceded.)
Edge case. FORTRAN is better than C for matrix multiplications. I'm not sure I'd want to code Nastran in any other language.
Of course you can find things where you really want to use the shorthand-for-assembly that C is, but you pretty much have to look at things like bitslice processors to do it. For the run of the mill microcontrollers two decades past the 8051, then sure, I'd use node.js in them in a heartbeat. What a pleasure that would be.
I was going to respond to this, but I can't really figure out what point you're making other than I haven't done what I actually did and that's obviously false. Let me ask you this, have you use both extensively?
Anybody who knows more than BASIC should be able to see the logic of the former. The latter just looks like fucking witchcraft or something I'd expect to see on the walls of the tomb of an ancient Egyptian king.
Oh I'm sorry, I forgot there are people that don't check their work. They should use Pascal or something; sloppy is as sloppy does.
And if you think goto's are harmful you'll really hate self modifying code. But, when you save a million instructions by doing that, it's gonna get done Dr. Whitetower.
Enumerate the properties of js. Now point to another language that has them. Oh look, null set.
Re:They should have gone with Python
on
Gnome Goes JavaScript
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Well, the first metric I saw when when a web server written in node was faster than Apache.
I know there's a lot of variables there, but still, when an interpreted language beats C for something like this, that's impressive.
TO be sure, you can do the kind of I/O js does in C, but it's a real pain and usually platform dependant in some way, even the difference between linux and bsd can start the ifdefs popping up, but js brings asynchronous I/O to the 10 GOTO 10 crowd. That, and the fact the js x86 emulator not only works but runs linux under which you can edit, compile a real program no slower than unix used to be on an 11/45 and you're doing this in a browser tab.
That's the metric I use for me to consider it fast. Obviously this is a contentious and complex topic, but as a rough approximation, I think it's fast.
Or at least it CAN be. The loops FB makes it jump through are insane and they manage to kill any js interpreter they throw at it and even the mighty V8 is now starting to strain so something will have to change there. But if they knew what they were doing it'd be as slick as it was performance wise 3 years ago, this isn't the fault of js, just bad (or no) performance profiling and tuning in Palo Alto.
So, while this may not mean any code you write will be fast, if you're used to real-time programming you'll love the language and the stuff you can do now with css3/html5 (gradients, css-masks) may not have the underpinnings of the next Pixar like NeXt did, there's still enough there to, say, keep the molbio crowd happy for the next decade with very fast real time renderings of molecules they can play with to cite one example.
I agree the success of is tied to the web, but so what, that's like saying the success of C was only because of Unix.
It only runs one program I've seen - Linux. It boots, I can vi, cc, run it and it's not slow. And it's doing all this in a browser tab. Or as many as you want.
Have a go doing this in python and let us know when we can compare the two.
If you're unclear why, watch the 8 hours of doug crockford's videos about and and you'll get it. there's a lot more academic rigor in js than most people have any idea about. it's good stuff.
I learned C when it was two years old and have touched the mimeograph Bell Labs C manual with dmr's penciled in notes (yes, I'm bragging). I did computer languages at Waterloo and have written a few at least one of which is still in use today. So I make a point of trying all these new languages that come out and I've tried them all from Snobol to Erlang. They're all fucking retarded.
JavaScript rawks. Utterly. Among my friends I've noticed they've all quietly moved to js and node.js independently, as I have. It's really that good, so this is an obvious and wise choice.
It's just a pity about the name, Java is so bad and JavaScript so good; ECMAscript doesn't exactly roll off the tongue though. It this point I think it would be most prudent to kill off the current Java (or rename it LarryScript) and rename Javascript as Java so Java can finally live up to it's promise.
That's two more users that sites that still use Java.
I shut it off years ago. Every year or so it whines about a missing plugin. But realistically, at this point nobody sane uses Java and there's so little out there it's not worth worrying about.
Slashdot Mirror
Then you're doing it wrong. And if you had half as much experience as you claim to have in this and your other post, you would understand that.
Says you. While your opinion is interesting you haven't proved or disproved the value of anything here, just offered your opinion.
There's a nonzero chance I've done more than you think.
You go on to further my point about you not really knowing what you're talking about when in other posts you talk about the x86 emulator written JavaScript as if thats supposed to be something to show how awesome it is. When you make that awesome emulator there out run my copy of QEMU without kmod, then perhaps I'll give you a listen, but you've got to be absolutely retarded to actually think JavaScript as a language has a technical reason for it to be faster than compiled C in reality, you being unable to write quality C withstanding.
I've written emulators and computer languages and interpreters. To be able to edit and compile and run a program in linux, running under emulation in a browser window in js it quite a piece of work. If you have never done something like this perhaps you don't know exactly what this implies.
But, i'll bite, show me the other language's implementation of exactly this. But there isn't one, is there? Why do you suppose that is?
Do you really want to run linux under Perl? Or python? Ok, cool, make it so then I'll tell you how fast is is compared to the original unix on an 11/45. If you haven't done this how can you comments on it. It's like saying "oh apollo, pfft, it's just going to the moon" and trivializes quite an accomplishment, one that doesn't occur anywhere else and you can't do. It's just your opinion, and it's unsubstantiated.
Yes, decent Javascript can out run really really shitty C, but only if you stack the deck so that C doesn't have a chance first
I don't think you really get this. because while the above is true it's got nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Consider the impact on a multiuser system where programs are written in one of two languages, one had blocking i/o by default, one doesn't.
Now do you get it?
I'm not seeing anything I can objectively rebut here, just your opinion. You don't like it. Ok.
Meanwhile the world moves to js.
One simple graphic in the page that's loading and it blows your rationale for terse code out the door.
I assert there's greater utility in the former example because it's more readable: more people can understand it.
Cancer rates by country (Age-Standardised Rate per 100,000)
Highest
1 Denmark 326.1
2 Ireland 317.0
3 Australia 314.1
4 New Zealand 309.2
5 Belgium 306.8
6 France (metropolitan) 300.4
7 United States of America 300.2
8 Norway 299.1
9 Canada 296.6
10 Czech Republic 295.0
11 Israel 288.3
12 The Netherlands 286.8
Lowest
50 South African Republic 202.0
49 Albania 202.8
48 Montenegro 204.3
47 Romania 205.1
46 Argentina 206.2
45 Armenia 207.5
44 Barbados 207.9
43 Malta 211.4
42 Belarus 213.1
41 New Caledonia 218.5
40 Serbia 218.9
(yes, this is totally unrelated, and off topic; ceded.)
You are aware Google's V8 interpreter compiles, right? That's the basis of node.js.
That says more about the people you work with than the language.
I've seen Ferarri's in rough shape too. Doesn't mean they're not fast.
Easier to write, and test. A richer language that lets you do more per line.
Non-blocking I/O by default. To be sure you can do this in C, but it's a pain and you don't even have to think about it in js.
Edge case. FORTRAN is better than C for matrix multiplications. I'm not sure I'd want to code Nastran in any other language.
Of course you can find things where you really want to use the shorthand-for-assembly that C is, but you pretty much have to look at things like bitslice processors to do it. For the run of the mill microcontrollers two decades past the 8051, then sure, I'd use node.js in them in a heartbeat. What a pleasure that would be.
I was going to respond to this, but I can't really figure out what point you're making other than I haven't done what I actually did and that's obviously false. Let me ask you this, have you use both extensively?
I scoff at your testing methodologies, Sir, I find them wanting.
If you aren't sure exactly what your code is doing and not doing then you aren't really done.
This isn't rocket science. Oh wait, actually it is if you do it right.
That property is true of every computer language.
Fast, quickly done, understandable. Pick any two.
Anybody who knows more than BASIC should be able to see the logic of the former. The latter just looks like fucking witchcraft or something I'd expect to see on the walls of the tomb of an ancient Egyptian king.
Oh I'm sorry, I forgot there are people that don't check their work. They should use Pascal or something; sloppy is as sloppy does.
And if you think goto's are harmful you'll really hate self modifying code. But, when you save a million instructions by doing that, it's gonna get done Dr. Whitetower.
Enumerate the properties of js. Now point to another language that has them. Oh look, null set.
Well, the first metric I saw when when a web server written in node was faster than Apache.
I know there's a lot of variables there, but still, when an interpreted language beats C for something like this, that's impressive.
TO be sure, you can do the kind of I/O js does in C, but it's a real pain and usually platform dependant in some way, even the difference between linux and bsd can start the ifdefs popping up, but js brings asynchronous I/O to the 10 GOTO 10 crowd. That, and the fact the js x86 emulator not only works but runs linux under which you can edit, compile a real program no slower than unix used to be on an 11/45 and you're doing this in a browser tab.
That's the metric I use for me to consider it fast. Obviously this is a contentious and complex topic, but as a rough approximation, I think it's fast.
Or at least it CAN be. The loops FB makes it jump through are insane and they manage to kill any js interpreter they throw at it and even the mighty V8 is now starting to strain so something will have to change there. But if they knew what they were doing it'd be as slick as it was performance wise 3 years ago, this isn't the fault of js, just bad (or no) performance profiling and tuning in Palo Alto.
So, while this may not mean any code you write will be fast, if you're used to real-time programming you'll love the language and the stuff you can do now with css3/html5 (gradients, css-masks) may not have the underpinnings of the next Pixar like NeXt did, there's still enough there to, say, keep the molbio crowd happy for the next decade with very fast real time renderings of molecules they can play with to cite one example.
I agree the success of is tied to the web, but so what, that's like saying the success of C was only because of Unix.
They said the same thing about Assembler, C, Perl and PhP.
If you have a clear mind and know what you're dong, js is a godsend. No computer language will help the lazy though.
Ok, maybe BASIC will, but you get the point.
" But I would never call JS elegant. "
When you do, then you can grab the stone from my hand, grasshopper.
Most of the world disagrees with you. I disagree with you and am of the opinion you haven't surveyed the landscape properly.
It is a pain to understand and get used to, but when you do I haven't found it to be a problem. The only way to fail is to give up. Keep at it.
Does that mean you've never written a serious app in js? If so what makes you qualified to compare?
Have you see the x86 emulator written in javascript?
http://bellard.org/jslinux/tech.html
It only runs one program I've seen - Linux. It boots, I can vi, cc, run it and it's not slow. And it's doing all this in a browser tab. Or as many as you want.
Have a go doing this in python and let us know when we can compare the two.
Or do this: http://osjs.0o.no/
Unlike the languages that encourage you to wrote easily maintainable code like:
I'm one of the first C programmers and I've switched to js and node.js. it's better and faster than C.
If you don't know why that is true, instantly, you have a bit of reading to do.
If you're unclear why, watch the 8 hours of doug crockford's videos about and and you'll get it. there's a lot more academic rigor in js than most people have any idea about. it's good stuff.
I learned C when it was two years old and have touched the mimeograph Bell Labs C manual with dmr's penciled in notes (yes, I'm bragging). I did computer languages at Waterloo and have written a few at least one of which is still in use today. So I make a point of trying all these new languages that come out and I've tried them all from Snobol to Erlang. They're all fucking retarded.
JavaScript rawks. Utterly. Among my friends I've noticed they've all quietly moved to js and node.js independently, as I have. It's really that good, so this is an obvious and wise choice.
It's just a pity about the name, Java is so bad and JavaScript so good; ECMAscript doesn't exactly roll off the tongue though. It this point I think it would be most prudent to kill off the current Java (or rename it LarryScript) and rename Javascript as Java so Java can finally live up to it's promise.
No, it was a security hole big enough to drive a truck though. You think they wanted to do this?
Android isn't really Java. It's similar, but so are a lot of IL code languages going back 30 years.
That's two more users that sites that still use Java.
I shut it off years ago. Every year or so it whines about a missing plugin. But realistically, at this point nobody sane uses Java and there's so little out there it's not worth worrying about.