I never said anything was wrong with keeping the system in a main room. I questioned whether or not he trusted his kid to not buy things that he was told not to. So much that he expects OTHERS to be watching his kid and enforcing his rules.
Was it pointless to go to the mooon too? You also seem to ignore all the technology that came out of trying to put a person on the moon. What technology might come from getting people safely to Mars and back? We got a hell of a lot more than "a story" from our quest to the moon.
With that said, what is so difficult about presenting your identification?
In a free society, a free person shouldn't have to prove to his goverment that he is allowed to view some content.
Unless you carry cash everywhere, you should want to do it (for security reasons) when you make a credit card purchase or cut a check.
No one checks ID for credit cards, and i don't use checks because they are inconvient and slower than a check card. I don't have a worry about fraud, because I watch my statement and report any fraud to the police and my bank.
Do you also resent being carded to purchase alcohol or cigarettes?
Yes. Again, in a free society I should be able to purchase whatever substance and consume it without approval from the government.
I realize that video games (and movies) are a bit more innocuous with respect to the harm their misuse would cause, but the ratings system is designed to provide an easy to understand, FIRST ORDER of protection. It is meant to protect consumers as well as developers and publishers on the surface and without additional hoops to jump through, not censor them.
If we can't prove harm, then I think we have a problem right off the bat. Rating systems increase costs, besides being inconvient. Also, we do know that games / movies get cut to appease the ratings boards. I'm not sure what consumers you think are being protected; games being the cost they are, I doubt many just pick it one up on a whim, you probably have some idea what the game is already. Given that some of our Senators are STILL taking exception to Manhunt 2, I think one of the goals is censorship. They believe the game should never have been released at all, and that point has been made pretty clearly. Again, over something that has no proven harm when "consumed" by minors.
The GTA Hot Coffee issue comes to mind here. Had Rockstar revealed all of the features of their game, then the ESRB would have issued an initial AO rating instead of the M it received.
They effectively removed that content though. You have to change the program to access it. Would you sue an auto manufacter if you modified your car and it blew up as a result?
They circumvented the protection for the consumer in order to ensure the game's successful launch with all major retailers. With the AO rating, GTA would still be released (just as uncensored, mind you) but it wouldn't appear on the shelves of retailers who are more family oriented.
Which limits the audience severely. Do you really still have free speech if your audience is taken away by law or policy?
With respect to the ratings system in lieu of research, I'm reminded of a grandmother who bought GTA for her 14 year old grandson because that was what he wanted for his birthday (or Christmas). The ESRB Rating is clearly displayed on the front and back of each game box with a general description of the age appropriateness of the title. Now, in her defense maybe she didn't have time to read the rating in the corner, and maybe she isn't technically savvy enough to check out the background on the game at the developer's website, and maybe the clerk who helped her didn't realize that she was purchasing this title for someone else but even a non-technical person of low intelligence would be compelled to wonder why her grandson would want to play a game titled Grand..Theft..Auto. For titles that aren't as obvious, the rating system remains the most appropriate and unobtrusive measure.
Yet the ratings system failed to do what was intended. Without a ratings system, you still have this scenario. I'm left to wonder how effective it really is. It seems to me the costs (money and in terms of limiting free speech) outweight any benefits (of which we can't really prove that there are).
I'm not telling anyone how to raise their child. They are free to allow (or disallow) there child to play any game they want.
You're forcing them to buy something for their kid, which they would perfer having their kid purchase themself.
I'm sorry if you feel that a parent spending some time with their child is such an enormous effort.
When said "child" is 15 or 16, its natural that they become more independant. Your wish to force a rating system is forcing the kid to be more dependant that the parent wishes them to be. It has nothing to do with spending time with the kid. Stop with that drivel.
If my child asks me about something, then he/she is obviously ready to know at least somethig about it, and I welcome those conversations. I'm not pretending they're not going to be exposed to, I know at some point they will.
Yet you seem to be doing quite a bit (and requiring society to bend to your will) to prevent exposure.
So don't buy the game, or buy it online with a credit card. I don't really care. Your inconvienance is not my concern. Nor is how gaming companies choose to make their games. There are enough games out there making money that have hard core graphics and adult gameplay to convince me that a good game will still make a profit, even with higher ratings. So either blame the developers, or blame the stores that won't carry them, its not the rating system's fault
Really? My inconvience isn't your concern? You realize I can say the same thing about you having to go to the mall, not having any ratings, then having to go home and research and possibly going back later right? Go fuck yourself, you arrogent prick. Last I checked, censorship is a bit more than in inconvience, much more so than you spending more time buying a game.
How about this; we get rid of the ratings system, and you don't even buy your kid a gaming system until he's 18? That will leave you more time to spend with your kid.
Yup, I did choose to have kids. Everyone that does affects everyone around them. That's the nature of society. Deal with it.
Fine, then I'm going to choose to break into your house and steal your TV. Crime is part of the nature of society, so deal with it.
I see movies being released all the time that minors aren't allowed to see. Same with magazines. The porn industry certainly isn't being censored. If you're going down the slippery slope path, at least come up with some evidence to back it up.
Because so far no one has said DVDs can't be used for porn. The fact that there is less censorship on one kind of media doesn't mean there isn't more on the other. Where are the AO rated console games?
At any rate, forgetting porn, you do realize that many movies have scenes cut out to appease the ratings board, correct? If you read some of the directors' take on this, sometimes it forces them to cut what would be a very powerful scene. Unrated DVDs help this somewhat, but I don't think art should be forced to be cut up to be seen in a theater.
I never said I'd rather not, in fact I said given the opportunity I would do the research ahead of time and make an informed decision. I'll even go with my child to buy the game if its rated too high for him/her to purchase alone. I don't appreciate you pushing a system that allows any minor to view any content, regardless of its obvious suitability for that age.
If you're willing to do the research, then we shouldn't need a rating system. Where does a kid get money for a game anyway? Either from the parent (which gives you a chance to do the research) or from a job (which probably means they are mature enough for the content they purchase).
Its really funny, because I grew up prior to any ratings systems, and games just as violent. My entire generation did. Yet we turned out fine.
If you choose to exercise that control over your kids, that's fine, but I don't think myself or parents that don't have an issue with g
Plenty of animals survive without herd dynamics. Not all animals travel in packs.
Regarding the person that replied to your post; I'm by no means well off financially, although much of that is the heavy taxes taken out of my paycheck to pay for people sitting in a trailer park. In other words, I'm being dragged down by those that, if we look at group animals, would be left behind.
Ya, certificates are VERY expensive to buy. And you have to keep buying them over and over again every time you sign! Oh wait, neither of those are true.
At any rate, searching the MSDN content online is what I was refering to as free.
Released doesn't matter too much; they were already working on the idea well before any open sourcers even attempted a go at it. Or are you claiming that a nearly done product needs to catch up with one just completed somehow?
Are you sure its a release too? Releases usually have a 1.x marker, not a 0.6.
Who are you to tell another person how they should be raising their child? If another parent feels comfortable enough to let their kid make their own decision about what game to get, what gives you the right to force them to do more effort?
As far as watching my kid 24/7, you're taking a very literal approach to what I said. Of course I don't expect to, or even want to watch my children every moment of their lives, but I do have a desire to protect them and only introduce certain parts of life to them when they are ready, regardless of age.
Well those were your words, not mine. It seems to me that if a child should stumble upon something, you'd be able to talk to them about it, thus making them more ready then pretending they're not going to get exposed to something you dislike and not talking about it.
Seems most of the people who are against the rating system fit into one of two categories. Kids who are not old enough to purchase the game without a parent around, or the parents who couldn't be bothered to go down with their child to purchase the game that they deem is appropriate, regardless of the rating.
I'm neither. I do resent though be carded to buy a game. I also resent that games are toned down to fit into some box, and that other games are never even created at all because of console maker rules. You chose to have kids, yet more and more that choice is affecting my life and freedom. Ratings systems lead to censorship, I don't appreciate that. Nor do I apprecate having to jump through hoops because you would rather a ratings system so you don't have to research. What's worse is that you are willing to do the work, you'd just rather not.
I tend to think that if you want to shelter your kids, its your choice to create and maintain that bubble. It shouldn't be societies cost to help you do it though.
Besides the printer not working at all? Sound card would just stop functioning (IIRC the KDE sound daemon or whatever would die). KMail would suddenly show up with no messages in my inbox, even though I had over 2000. This was due to its index file corrupting; deleting said file "fixed" things. GNUCash would crash occasionally. There were other odd crashes too. That's nothing to say that administering it was much more difficult.
Regarding your zip file.. I'm not sure that.filename is really supported on Windows. Yes, you can create them, but explorer doesn't let you. At any rate, you could use 7zip, which is free and on Windows, so you don't HAVE to pay for file compression. Free software exists for Windows too. You could even roll your own; there's a free.Net library (SharpZip) you could use.
Any other examples?
Ofcourse, an informed user would buy hardware after verifying software compatibility.
With Windows though, you don't even really have to check. If you're buying a new piece of hardware, it will have drivers for the latest version of Windows, and likely past versions too. I've never bought hardware and had it not work with Windows or come with the drivers.
A Lexmark X4200 series 4in1. It failed to do anything at all.
RE: OSX. I hate one button mice (no, I'm not going to buy a mouse for a machine I don't own). I hate that closing the window doesn't close the application. Its still running in Finder. The window sizing you discuss is also irritating. I don't care for the fact that the menu bar is always up top and not attached to the application I'm using.
Nothing. You can search MSDN content online for nothing. At any rate, if you're a professional shop, what would you be doing without an subscription? At least sign up for the magazine!
UAC is a fine approach; it doesn't launch seven message boxes IF you've done your job properly, which you haven't. Signing your binaries is one of those steps. FWIW, UAC will prompt for a password if the user isn't part of the Administrators group. Again, if you paid more attention and read up on UAC, you'd know this as well.
Given the large number of other apps that manage only ONE prompt, I don't see how you can possibly blame Vista.
So, you just don't want to do the research? Nevermind that your kid probably knows before you leave what game he'd want. What about parents who have kids in the 14-17 range? Should they have to buy the game for their kid, even if they don't mind their kids playing an M game?
I also see a problem with you wanting to watch your kid 24/7. You don't trust your kid? You don't think you would have done a good enough job raising them? You can't let them outside their bubble, so that maybe they see the world isn't just like their little neighborhood and that they must be able to think on their own?
You release that they begin work on the next version of the OS soon after they launch the one they just completed, right? Aero was being worked on at least as early as 2003. Horrid linux UI (or lack thereof) is one of the reasons I dropped Linux.
Tell that to my Lexmark x4200 series printer. I have no idea what you're talking about googling for Windows drivers either, THEY COME ON A DISK WITH THE HARDWARE. Reboot? Who cares? Oh, and if I want to play games on my computer that's perfectly valid, dispite your typical snobby elitist remark. You may think that computers are for spreedsheets only, but that's just your (worthless) opinion.
You really don't know what the hell you're doing if your application is causing that may popups. I've downloaded other software from the web, and get ONE UAC prompt. Perhaps you should try signing your binaries, and then get on MSDN to figure out what else you're doing wrong.
To be fair, other people in the audience may also have shelled out $14, and intend to record the film and sell the crap quality version on the street at $5 a pop...
It's poorly presented because it has problems with backward compatibility and support for older software. I don't consider this a "problem" except that Microsoft did not adequately warn the public of this issue.
Sorry, I have to take issue with that. They released a while ago a tool that will check your hardware AND software for compatability issues. Its pretty comprehensive.
Slashdot Mirror
I never said anything was wrong with keeping the system in a main room. I questioned whether or not he trusted his kid to not buy things that he was told not to. So much that he expects OTHERS to be watching his kid and enforcing his rules.
Ahh, so politicians know better than scientists on how to conduct research. I see.
Was it pointless to go to the mooon too? You also seem to ignore all the technology that came out of trying to put a person on the moon. What technology might come from getting people safely to Mars and back? We got a hell of a lot more than "a story" from our quest to the moon.
Honestly though, why should Congress get to decide that? NASA's main purpose is space exploration, I think that covers going to Mars.
With that said, what is so difficult about presenting your identification?
In a free society, a free person shouldn't have to prove to his goverment that he is allowed to view some content.
Unless you carry cash everywhere, you should want to do it (for security reasons) when you make a credit card purchase or cut a check.
No one checks ID for credit cards, and i don't use checks because they are inconvient and slower than a check card. I don't have a worry about fraud, because I watch my statement and report any fraud to the police and my bank.
Do you also resent being carded to purchase alcohol or cigarettes?
Yes. Again, in a free society I should be able to purchase whatever substance and consume it without approval from the government.
I realize that video games (and movies) are a bit more innocuous with respect to the harm their misuse would cause, but the ratings system is designed to provide an easy to understand, FIRST ORDER of protection. It is meant to protect consumers as well as developers and publishers on the surface and without additional hoops to jump through, not censor them.
If we can't prove harm, then I think we have a problem right off the bat. Rating systems increase costs, besides being inconvient. Also, we do know that games / movies get cut to appease the ratings boards. I'm not sure what consumers you think are being protected; games being the cost they are, I doubt many just pick it one up on a whim, you probably have some idea what the game is already. Given that some of our Senators are STILL taking exception to Manhunt 2, I think one of the goals is censorship. They believe the game should never have been released at all, and that point has been made pretty clearly. Again, over something that has no proven harm when "consumed" by minors.
The GTA Hot Coffee issue comes to mind here. Had Rockstar revealed all of the features of their game, then the ESRB would have issued an initial AO rating instead of the M it received.
They effectively removed that content though. You have to change the program to access it. Would you sue an auto manufacter if you modified your car and it blew up as a result?
They circumvented the protection for the consumer in order to ensure the game's successful launch with all major retailers. With the AO rating, GTA would still be released (just as uncensored, mind you) but it wouldn't appear on the shelves of retailers who are more family oriented.
Which limits the audience severely. Do you really still have free speech if your audience is taken away by law or policy?
With respect to the ratings system in lieu of research, I'm reminded of a grandmother who bought GTA for her 14 year old grandson because that was what he wanted for his birthday (or Christmas). The ESRB Rating is clearly displayed on the front and back of each game box with a general description of the age appropriateness of the title. Now, in her defense maybe she didn't have time to read the rating in the corner, and maybe she isn't technically savvy enough to check out the background on the game at the developer's website, and maybe the clerk who helped her didn't realize that she was purchasing this title for someone else but even a non-technical person of low intelligence would be compelled to wonder why her grandson would want to play a game titled Grand..Theft..Auto. For titles that aren't as obvious, the rating system remains the most appropriate and unobtrusive measure.
Yet the ratings system failed to do what was intended. Without a ratings system, you still have this scenario. I'm left to wonder how effective it really is. It seems to me the costs (money and in terms of limiting free speech) outweight any benefits (of which we can't really prove that there are).
I'm not telling anyone how to raise their child. They are free to allow (or disallow) there child to play any game they want.
You're forcing them to buy something for their kid, which they would perfer having their kid purchase themself.
I'm sorry if you feel that a parent spending some time with their child is such an enormous effort.
When said "child" is 15 or 16, its natural that they become more independant. Your wish to force a rating system is forcing the kid to be more dependant that the parent wishes them to be. It has nothing to do with spending time with the kid. Stop with that drivel.
If my child asks me about something, then he/she is obviously ready to know at least somethig about it, and I welcome those conversations. I'm not pretending they're not going to be exposed to, I know at some point they will.
Yet you seem to be doing quite a bit (and requiring society to bend to your will) to prevent exposure.
So don't buy the game, or buy it online with a credit card. I don't really care. Your inconvienance is not my concern. Nor is how gaming companies choose to make their games. There are enough games out there making money that have hard core graphics and adult gameplay to convince me that a good game will still make a profit, even with higher ratings. So either blame the developers, or blame the stores that won't carry them, its not the rating system's fault
Really? My inconvience isn't your concern? You realize I can say the same thing about you having to go to the mall, not having any ratings, then having to go home and research and possibly going back later right? Go fuck yourself, you arrogent prick. Last I checked, censorship is a bit more than in inconvience, much more so than you spending more time buying a game.
How about this; we get rid of the ratings system, and you don't even buy your kid a gaming system until he's 18? That will leave you more time to spend with your kid.
Yup, I did choose to have kids. Everyone that does affects everyone around them. That's the nature of society. Deal with it.
Fine, then I'm going to choose to break into your house and steal your TV. Crime is part of the nature of society, so deal with it.
I see movies being released all the time that minors aren't allowed to see. Same with magazines. The porn industry certainly isn't being censored. If you're going down the slippery slope path, at least come up with some evidence to back it up.
Because so far no one has said DVDs can't be used for porn. The fact that there is less censorship on one kind of media doesn't mean there isn't more on the other. Where are the AO rated console games?
At any rate, forgetting porn, you do realize that many movies have scenes cut out to appease the ratings board, correct? If you read some of the directors' take on this, sometimes it forces them to cut what would be a very powerful scene. Unrated DVDs help this somewhat, but I don't think art should be forced to be cut up to be seen in a theater.
I never said I'd rather not, in fact I said given the opportunity I would do the research ahead of time and make an informed decision. I'll even go with my child to buy the game if its rated too high for him/her to purchase alone. I don't appreciate you pushing a system that allows any minor to view any content, regardless of its obvious suitability for that age.
If you're willing to do the research, then we shouldn't need a rating system. Where does a kid get money for a game anyway? Either from the parent (which gives you a chance to do the research) or from a job (which probably means they are mature enough for the content they purchase).
Its really funny, because I grew up prior to any ratings systems, and games just as violent. My entire generation did. Yet we turned out fine.
If you choose to exercise that control over your kids, that's fine, but I don't think myself or parents that don't have an issue with g
Plenty of animals survive without herd dynamics. Not all animals travel in packs.
Regarding the person that replied to your post; I'm by no means well off financially, although much of that is the heavy taxes taken out of my paycheck to pay for people sitting in a trailer park. In other words, I'm being dragged down by those that, if we look at group animals, would be left behind.
Ya, certificates are VERY expensive to buy. And you have to keep buying them over and over again every time you sign! Oh wait, neither of those are true.
At any rate, searching the MSDN content online is what I was refering to as free.
Well, you could say the same about the guy that wants to be hung but is denied.
Released doesn't matter too much; they were already working on the idea well before any open sourcers even attempted a go at it. Or are you claiming that a nearly done product needs to catch up with one just completed somehow?
Are you sure its a release too? Releases usually have a 1.x marker, not a 0.6.
Yup. They should have to. That's the point.
Who are you to tell another person how they should be raising their child? If another parent feels comfortable enough to let their kid make their own decision about what game to get, what gives you the right to force them to do more effort?
As far as watching my kid 24/7, you're taking a very literal approach to what I said. Of course I don't expect to, or even want to watch my children every moment of their lives, but I do have a desire to protect them and only introduce certain parts of life to them when they are ready, regardless of age.
Well those were your words, not mine. It seems to me that if a child should stumble upon something, you'd be able to talk to them about it, thus making them more ready then pretending they're not going to get exposed to something you dislike and not talking about it.
Seems most of the people who are against the rating system fit into one of two categories. Kids who are not old enough to purchase the game without a parent around, or the parents who couldn't be bothered to go down with their child to purchase the game that they deem is appropriate, regardless of the rating.
I'm neither. I do resent though be carded to buy a game. I also resent that games are toned down to fit into some box, and that other games are never even created at all because of console maker rules. You chose to have kids, yet more and more that choice is affecting my life and freedom. Ratings systems lead to censorship, I don't appreciate that. Nor do I apprecate having to jump through hoops because you would rather a ratings system so you don't have to research. What's worse is that you are willing to do the work, you'd just rather not.
I tend to think that if you want to shelter your kids, its your choice to create and maintain that bubble. It shouldn't be societies cost to help you do it though.
Besides the printer not working at all? Sound card would just stop functioning (IIRC the KDE sound daemon or whatever would die). KMail would suddenly show up with no messages in my inbox, even though I had over 2000. This was due to its index file corrupting; deleting said file "fixed" things. GNUCash would crash occasionally. There were other odd crashes too. That's nothing to say that administering it was much more difficult.
.filename is really supported on Windows. Yes, you can create them, but explorer doesn't let you. At any rate, you could use 7zip, which is free and on Windows, so you don't HAVE to pay for file compression. Free software exists for Windows too. You could even roll your own; there's a free .Net library (SharpZip) you could use.
Regarding your zip file.. I'm not sure that
Any other examples?
Ofcourse, an informed user would buy hardware after verifying software compatibility.
With Windows though, you don't even really have to check. If you're buying a new piece of hardware, it will have drivers for the latest version of Windows, and likely past versions too. I've never bought hardware and had it not work with Windows or come with the drivers.
A Lexmark X4200 series 4in1. It failed to do anything at all.
RE: OSX. I hate one button mice (no, I'm not going to buy a mouse for a machine I don't own). I hate that closing the window doesn't close the application. Its still running in Finder. The window sizing you discuss is also irritating. I don't care for the fact that the menu bar is always up top and not attached to the application I'm using.
Nothing. You can search MSDN content online for nothing. At any rate, if you're a professional shop, what would you be doing without an subscription? At least sign up for the magazine!
UAC is a fine approach; it doesn't launch seven message boxes IF you've done your job properly, which you haven't. Signing your binaries is one of those steps. FWIW, UAC will prompt for a password if the user isn't part of the Administrators group. Again, if you paid more attention and read up on UAC, you'd know this as well.
Given the large number of other apps that manage only ONE prompt, I don't see how you can possibly blame Vista.
So, you just don't want to do the research? Nevermind that your kid probably knows before you leave what game he'd want. What about parents who have kids in the 14-17 range? Should they have to buy the game for their kid, even if they don't mind their kids playing an M game?
I also see a problem with you wanting to watch your kid 24/7. You don't trust your kid? You don't think you would have done a good enough job raising them? You can't let them outside their bubble, so that maybe they see the world isn't just like their little neighborhood and that they must be able to think on their own?
Because its pronounced Redding, not Reading. See also Reading, PA. Notice the pronunciation.
Hmm, perhaps you should have done your research BEFORE you drained your life savings. All I can see is Darwin at work here..
You release that they begin work on the next version of the OS soon after they launch the one they just completed, right? Aero was being worked on at least as early as 2003. Horrid linux UI (or lack thereof) is one of the reasons I dropped Linux.
Tell that to my Lexmark x4200 series printer. I have no idea what you're talking about googling for Windows drivers either, THEY COME ON A DISK WITH THE HARDWARE. Reboot? Who cares? Oh, and if I want to play games on my computer that's perfectly valid, dispite your typical snobby elitist remark. You may think that computers are for spreedsheets only, but that's just your (worthless) opinion.
My point was that you claimed MS was the one playing catch up though. Certainly doesn't seem that way.
Verizon != Verizon Wireless. They are two seperate companies.
You really don't know what the hell you're doing if your application is causing that may popups. I've downloaded other software from the web, and get ONE UAC prompt. Perhaps you should try signing your binaries, and then get on MSDN to figure out what else you're doing wrong.
Huh? I found this on Compiz Fusion: First stable release of Compiz Fusion is 0.6.0 released on October 20 2007.
To be fair, other people in the audience may also have shelled out $14, and intend to record the film and sell the crap quality version on the street at $5 a pop...
It's poorly presented because it has problems with backward compatibility and support for older software. I don't consider this a "problem" except that Microsoft did not adequately warn the public of this issue.
Sorry, I have to take issue with that. They released a while ago a tool that will check your hardware AND software for compatability issues. Its pretty comprehensive.