I appreciate the suggestions to get recourse through the credit card company. However, Apple does not offer credit card purchases for the Xserve. So, the same Apple web pages that I used to purchase the Xserve, also suggested that I apply for credit through MBNA to purchase the Xserve. So, I did. Unfortunately, for me, this "Apple Loan" from MBNA does not offer the same protections that a credit card purchase does.
Just one more reason not to do business with either MBNA or Apple.
To answer your question: I will probably sell the XServe. I just want to make sure that I've exhausted all posibilities of getting a refund. I think the only alternative I have left, is a lawsuit in district court. Not sure if I can afford that.
I appreciate your well thought out comments and suggestions.
This was my first purchase and experience with Apple computers. I started out being overly impressed by both the quality of the hardware, and the quality of support from technical support. I even mentioned this to one of the support engineers I was working with.
But, my experience with customer service was mostly a negative experience that has probably turned me away from Apple forever. Not only because their definition of "custom configured" seems very restrictive, but also because they come across as be somewhat arrogant. I heard from at least three different people (1 in customer support, 1 in technical support, and 1 from the executive office) that I should have done more research before purchasing the server. Hearing it from so many sources almost leads me to believe that its part of the company training.
My position is that I did research the product before I bought it. However, the purpose of a 10-day trial period is to do more intensive hands-on evaluation that cannot be replaced by reading sales info, or internet postings.
The XServe has been sitting in the box untouched since day 11. I've been waiting until I thought I had exhausted all possibilities for obtaining a refund. Now, that I've done that, I will most likely sell the it.
Good point, Trevor, on the car analogy not holding up.
Granted, it would cost Apple to process my return. I would have gladly paid a restocking fee and they would have had a happy customer, if they would have chosen that option.
After evaluating the server we determined it would not work for our needs. I assume that is what the 10 day trial period is for.
10 days. Talked to Apple employees on over 10 different occassions before filing suit.
I asked for an escalation on the second call regarding the return. Took them 3 days to call back, and only after a second call from me. Then letters and calls to the Executive Office of Steve Jobs.
More details in my posting later in this thread: Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS
Sorry for the slim details in the original posting. But, let me try to fill in the blanks, and clarify my position.
Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative.
The purchase was a dual processor Xserve. I upgraded from 512MB of memory to 2GB and from 60GB of disk space to 480GB.
I was totally aware of Apples return policy before placing my order. My dispute is: Does selecting additional memory or disk drives really constitute a product that is "custom configured to your specifications". According to the defense that Apple used, even adding one stick of memory would have made it custom configured. My upgrades were selected from a standard menu on their website. I didn't call and ask for some esoteric tape drive or anything like that. In court someone brought up the analogy of buying a car. My response to that was, if I am buying a brand new car off the lot, and I ask for an automatic transmission (which usually costs more), I still have a stock car. No one is going to say that I bought a customized car. Knowing what I know now, I would order the hard drives and memory separately and install them myself after the 10-day evaluation period.
I appreciate the comment made by one poster regarding how the sales clerk made the return policy very clear. I think that Apple's website should be as clear. Maybe "Custom Configured" icons could be located next to the items that will affect the return policy. Apple's defense claimed that it states at the top of the web page "Configure your Xserve" and that this should be enough of an indicator. But, options included on this very same page also include the "Mac OS X Server Maintenance Program", "AppleCare Service and Parts Kits for Xserve" and AppleCare support Plans. Surely selecting these items wouldn't constitute a custom configured product. And at no other time during the purchase process, including my invoice receipt from Apple did it indicate that I was purchasing a custom configured product that could not be returned. I certainly don't think that Apple deliberately sets out to trap customers into purchasing items that can't be refunded. But, on the other hand their policies and procedures sure don't give the impression of being well thought out, or cohesive.
As for the concern about whether I was returning the product because I just changed my mind or it because it was broke. I'm not sure if the reason really matters, unless Apple wants to use the information to possibly make changes in their product or policies. After all, their policy does state "if you are not satisfied". It says nothing about have to give reasons. But, since people are curious.... The hardware worked without fail for the 10 days that we evaluated machine. In fact the hardware is the reason that we were attracted to the Xserve. The problems were related to the software. We found Apple's customized version of BSD Unix to be difficult to work with. We would add commonly used Open Source software and it would break some Apple proprietary interface, or vice versa. We really tried hard for the 10 days to make this machine work for us. And we found it frustrating every step of the way. I attribute this to Apple's proprietary way of doing things. But, the clincher for us was when we started with a clean install of OS 10, added Webmin (a commonly used remote admin program), and the server would crash when trying to remotely reboot it, from the shell prompt. This was very easily reproducible. And also totally unacceptable since the final destination for this box is a data center where hands-on reboots are a rare event. I know that I could have worked with Apple and probably gotten a patch for this issue. However, it seemed serious enough for me to decide to return the product, and look elsewhere.
I did give serious thought to installing Yellow Dog Linux on the machine and not even dealing with Apple's version of BSD Unix, but after havi
Why is there a 10-day trail period? Its not to make sure that everything is working. (Thats what the warranty is for.) It is to evalute the product to determine if it meets certian needs/requirements. And if it doesn't meet the needs then I should be allowed to return it, right?
Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative.
I called them on the 10th day. They had no problem with the timing.
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I appreciate the suggestions to get recourse through the credit card company. However, Apple does not offer credit card purchases for the Xserve. So, the same Apple web pages that I used to purchase the Xserve, also suggested that I apply for credit through MBNA to purchase the Xserve. So, I did. Unfortunately, for me, this "Apple Loan" from MBNA does not offer the same protections that a credit card purchase does.
Just one more reason not to do business with either MBNA or Apple.
To answer your question: I will probably sell the XServe. I just want to make sure that I've exhausted all posibilities of getting a refund. I think the only alternative I have left, is a lawsuit in district court. Not sure if I can afford that.
This was my first purchase and experience with Apple computers. I started out being overly impressed by both the quality of the hardware, and the quality of support from technical support. I even mentioned this to one of the support engineers I was working with.
But, my experience with customer service was mostly a negative experience that has probably turned me away from Apple forever. Not only because their definition of "custom configured" seems very restrictive, but also because they come across as be somewhat arrogant. I heard from at least three different people (1 in customer support, 1 in technical support, and 1 from the executive office) that I should have done more research before purchasing the server. Hearing it from so many sources almost leads me to believe that its part of the company training.
My position is that I did research the product before I bought it. However, the purpose of a 10-day trial period is to do more intensive hands-on evaluation that cannot be replaced by reading sales info, or internet postings.
The XServe has been sitting in the box untouched since day 11. I've been waiting until I thought I had exhausted all possibilities for obtaining a refund. Now, that I've done that, I will most likely sell the it.
Granted, it would cost Apple to process my return. I would have gladly paid a restocking fee and they would have had a happy customer, if they would have chosen that option.
More details in my posting later in this thread: Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS
Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative.
The purchase was a dual processor Xserve. I upgraded from 512MB of memory to 2GB and from 60GB of disk space to 480GB.
I was totally aware of Apples return policy before placing my order. My dispute is: Does selecting additional memory or disk drives really constitute a product that is "custom configured to your specifications". According to the defense that Apple used, even adding one stick of memory would have made it custom configured. My upgrades were selected from a standard menu on their website. I didn't call and ask for some esoteric tape drive or anything like that. In court someone brought up the analogy of buying a car. My response to that was, if I am buying a brand new car off the lot, and I ask for an automatic transmission (which usually costs more), I still have a stock car. No one is going to say that I bought a customized car. Knowing what I know now, I would order the hard drives and memory separately and install them myself after the 10-day evaluation period.
I appreciate the comment made by one poster regarding how the sales clerk made the return policy very clear. I think that Apple's website should be as clear. Maybe "Custom Configured" icons could be located next to the items that will affect the return policy. Apple's defense claimed that it states at the top of the web page "Configure your Xserve" and that this should be enough of an indicator. But, options included on this very same page also include the "Mac OS X Server Maintenance Program", "AppleCare Service and Parts Kits for Xserve" and AppleCare support Plans. Surely selecting these items wouldn't constitute a custom configured product. And at no other time during the purchase process, including my invoice receipt from Apple did it indicate that I was purchasing a custom configured product that could not be returned. I certainly don't think that Apple deliberately sets out to trap customers into purchasing items that can't be refunded. But, on the other hand their policies and procedures sure don't give the impression of being well thought out, or cohesive.
As for the concern about whether I was returning the product because I just changed my mind or it because it was broke. I'm not sure if the reason really matters, unless Apple wants to use the information to possibly make changes in their product or policies. After all, their policy does state "if you are not satisfied". It says nothing about have to give reasons. But, since people are curious .... The hardware worked without fail for the 10 days that we evaluated machine. In fact the hardware is the reason that we were attracted to the Xserve. The problems were related to the software. We found Apple's customized version of BSD Unix to be difficult to work with. We would add commonly used Open Source software and it would break some Apple proprietary interface, or vice versa. We really tried hard for the 10 days to make this machine work for us. And we found it frustrating every step of the way. I attribute this to Apple's proprietary way of doing things. But, the clincher for us was when we started with a clean install of OS 10, added Webmin (a commonly used remote admin program), and the server would crash when trying to remotely reboot it, from the shell prompt. This was very easily reproducible. And also totally unacceptable since the final destination for this box is a data center where hands-on reboots are a rare event. I know that I could have worked with Apple and probably gotten a patch for this issue. However, it seemed serious enough for me to decide to return the product, and look elsewhere.
I did give serious thought to installing Yellow Dog Linux on the machine and not even dealing with Apple's version of BSD Unix, but after havi
Why is there a 10-day trail period? Its not to make sure that everything is working. (Thats what the warranty is for.) It is to evalute the product to determine if it meets certian needs/requirements. And if it doesn't meet the needs then I should be allowed to return it, right?
Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative. I called them on the 10th day. They had no problem with the timing.