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Just What is a Custom Configured Server?
djhanson wonders: "I just got back from a small claims court proceeding against Apple Computer. They successfully won their argument in front of the court that selecting additional memory and disk drives for a computer/server at the time of purchase, off of their website, constitutes a 'custom configured computer built to the customer's specifications'. Said computer is therefore not eligible under the company policy to be returned. Has anyone else heard of such a thing? As near as I can tell, Apple is the only company that has such a restrictive policy. I called both IBM and HP, and neither of those companies has such a policy. Am I the only one that thinks there is something terribly wrong with a policy like this?
Any opinions? Suggestions? Comments? Whatever?"
Sounds pretty dumb. But Apple policies are usually that way. You should see how they treat their employees.
Posting as AC because I work for Apple.
Horrific policy...makes me a bit ashmed of the iMac I'm typing this on.
I'm a fan of Apple designs, but I really hope they stay a niche in the market. If Apple ever overruns Redmond, we'll all look back on Microsoft as comparatively benevolent.
-Jerald Hams
on the (limited) information you've given it does seem a little unfair to you though, technically, the judgement was correct. You configured the machine, you are a customer, therefore it is a customer configured machine.
There should be a warning on their site when you do configure the machine yourself that you won't be able to do certain things.
an interesting point would be, what if you used the same customer configuration system to add in say some extra software or another battery for a laptop?
Where do you live that you have a small claims court open at quarter to six in the morning? Doesn't seem like anywhere in the USA or Canada, which may cause unforeseen errors in our legal advice.
Why not write about your experience in a place where thousands of geeks across the world could be disgusted by Apple's slimy business practices?
:)
My blog
Sounds like your computer does fit that description in its barest sense. Good on you for actually going to small claims court, though. Good use of the system. Hope it was a neat experience. Unfortunately, yeah, Apple does screw people in a couple of places. It's unfortunate, but they don't have huge margins for their hardware, and they are hell bent on turning a buck. As far as consumer rights go, you got screwed, but at the same time, you could have read the terms of the sale beforehand.
--
(sourceCode == freeSpeech)
Read the small print next time. I think it's reasonable for them to claim that it is a custom configuration, but refusing to support it when they have done the assembly is pretty disgraceful.
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
I have certainly returned custom apple systems in the past and have not had any issue whatsoever with it. How long had you had it before trying to return it? Where is your court docket? You are way to lite on details for me to consider this anything but false at this point. Feel free to prove me wrong however.
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
I won't be suprised at all to be reading a week from now about a recent loser of a court case against Apple being suddenly compensated anyway.
They might have been bastards here, but normally they watch the publicity front, too.
What other company that anyone knows of throws a beer bash with live bands and free beer for its employees?
Apple treats their employees great. if you dissagree, your one of those "the grass is greener in the desert because the internet told me so" people.
they do the same.
you WILL have the machine we sent...
--
martin
BTO machines have never been able to be returned.
this is cuz all the other machines are sold thru distributors. not directly by apple. so they don'thave to deal with the returns or anything. it's all someone elses hands.
Kenny Sabarese
www.kennysabarese.com
This may have changed, but Apple has (or had) the largest margins on their machines; something around 25-28% or so. This was the average along their entire line, with laptop having the top margins and iMacs eMacs having the lowest margins.
You are right that Apple's margins are in that range. According to Apple's Annual 10-K report, the company had a gross margin of 27.5%. But that is only their gross margin (the difference between the price of the item and the cost of the materials in that item). That figure leaves out a number of costs that Apple pays. Out of that 27.5% comes the 8.6% of sales that Apple spends on R&D. Another 19.5% of sales is spent on SG&A (Selling, general, and adminsitrative). Note that Apple's 27.5% is not even that high as the average across the S&P 500 is nearly 50%
This leaves Apple with a net profit margin of only 0.4% which works out to about $8 in profit on each of the 3 million computers they sold in 2003 (Compare that to Dell's 6% net margin to see who is really making money off their customers).
I won't excuse Apple for not warning customers about the return policy in more forceful terms. For custom configured purchases they really should have a bold-face warning in the purchase script that is triggered by what Apple considers "custom configured". Yet, nobody can claim that they make to much profit from their computers or fault them trying to contain costs.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
- What country/state are you in?
- WHY were you trying to return the computer? Was it defective or did you just not want it after you got it?
- How long did you have the computer before you asked Apple to accept a return? For that matter, DID you ask Apple to accept a return or did you just file suit?
- If you did ask Apple to accept a return, how far did you escalate the matter? Did you stop at the first person who told you "no" or did you ask for that person's supervisor?
If I was representing you in this matter, these are just the first of the questions I would be asking you, for two reasons: First, it is information that establishes whether you have a case. Second, they are the first questions the OTHER SIDE will ask you.Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
I must be missing something here. You bought a new computer, paid for the computer, took delivery of the computer, then later changed your mind and decided you don't want the computer. Why on earth would you expect them to give you your money back?
If the computer was damaged or malfunctioning, Apple have a warranty program that covers that, they'll repair or replace the computer at no charge to you. They even pay for the shipping.
Come on people, this isn't an abuse of consumer rights, it's an abuse of the court system because some guy couldn't make up his mind about what he wanted.
Sorry that you came off worse in this instance, but...
1. If you didn't want the machine, why did you order it?
2. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but their definition of a 'custom configured computer built to the customer's specifications' seems perfectly reasonable to me.
3. It seems reasonable for Apple not to want to take back a machine that was built to your specification -- hopefully they made you aware of this at the time of buying, but since you went to court, I guess this isn't so. I assume the machine worked -- I'd be dissapointed if they didn't accept a returned faulty machine.
"The noble art of losing face will one day save the human race"---Hans Blix
Got any other anecdotes we can use to bash "The Man" who still seems to just "keep us down?"
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
I bought a computer I don't want, I want my money back. I'll take you to court. Wahhhhhhh....
What are you 5? The ambigious nature of the info you gave us does not make me feel sorry for you at all. In fact it makes you look like a crybaby. Oh well. So how do you like your mac? I love mine....
When I recently bought a Powerbook from my University's Computer Store, the sales person probably told me about three times, that since I was customizing the computer I couldn't return it. This was fine with me, since I knew what I wanted, but it was good of him to be that explicit about the return policy.
I haven't bought a computer from Apple's website, so I don't know how clear they are about the return policy. Whether or not you thin this is a good policy or not, this is an example of "caveat emptor". If your dropping big buck on a piece of hardware, you should probably read all that fine print.
It's not a great policy to have the default be no returns. It would be a more consumer friendly to reserve the right not to accept a return. Maybe this is how it's worded.
In germany, where i live, we have something called the "Fernabsatzgesetz" regarding purchases made by phone or internet.
The argument goes something like this: Since you have no way of testing the product before you buy it (since you ordered it through the internet) the law grants you the right to return the product within 14 days of your purchase without giving reasons why you'd returned it provided two conditions hold:
1. The product was not damaged by you since you opened it
and
2. The product was not costum built for you.
If either one of these conditions doesn't hold you will have to keep it. A product is custom built if it deviates from the basic or standard product in a way which cannot be undone. So simple upgrades like more memory or a better graphics-adapter don't count as custom built since theses modification can be undone by the vendor.
A personal engraving for your iPod on the other hand would count as custom built.
Of course since in your case it is not a law but only company policy you have to stick to their rules and Apple clearly states that any upgrade counts as custom built and makes the item exempt from the return policy.
So no it's not terrible wrong. Just because you were to lazy to read the terms of service doesn't make the apple bad.
Regards
Jeff
I guess Apple too is tired of retarded kids who order stuff for fun and then return it as they can't pay for it. Buying things is NOT a game. If you want to do funky purchases, try playing The Sims Goes Shopping.
Going to court was dumb too, their policy is stated very clearly on their website.
As if Apple's obscene prices for RAM weren't enough to make one avoid changing the base configuration.
I have bought computer components, installed them, removed them and brought them back.
The parts where fully functional, I just changed my mind and wanted an other part. It was -at the time - due to my limited knowledge about available software for the part. So I couldn't use it. The part I eventually bought was delivered with working software.
It was less than 7 days after purchase, so I got a full refund.
It's the law. A customer is allowed to change his mind, bring back the product and demand a refund. Within 7 days.
Then again, I live in europe and consumers have certain rights here.
20% SG&A??? Talk about wasteful overhead!! Or does that include executives' salaries and bonuses?
Repeal the DMCA!
If Apple has such a restrictive policy, maybe someone should inform them that having such a policy is likely to drive down their customer base. Not that they'll care until they actually *see* it.
I mean, if HP and IBM aren't so hell-bent on this, then wouldn't it be safe to assume that they're going to pick up some business?
Here's what everyone with a contract with Apple should do: Call up your rep, spec-out a "custom" system and then ask about the return policy. When they fess up and say that you can't, politely tell them you'll be calling HP or IBM and switching. The more that do this, the higher the probabiliy that they'll take notice.
Problem solved.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
If you go to apple's web store, they have preconfigured machine (memory and disk drives can be configured)and CTO ( when you want super fast video card , etc. with a special blue logo on the web page )config.
...it's already in the system and on it's way. Just decline the order when the shipment arrives.
Depends on which product config you select,it should determine whether this is a custom config or not.
However, customer satisfaction is important. they should make customer happy even if they want to return something.
I once bought a used Powermac g4 dual from CDW. At the end,I change my mind and did not want it.
I called Macwarehouse (nowCDW)and say, hey,can I cancel the order?
They told me
I did and I did not get charged. Since then, I bought shit load of stuff from Macwarehouse just because I have good experience with them.
however - it's a policy I've long since known about. It isn't secret but rather openly declared when you ordered the product. I can understand the policy to a certain extent; and after all, if you're bothering to custom configure the thing then you're obviously aware of what you're buying to such an extent that you shouldn't want to return it unless it's malfunctioning - in which case their warranty should cover repair/replacement.
Here is an idea for the future. Buy from a middle party that you can get better service from. I have used PCConnection for years, personally and on a corporate level. I have never had a problem returning custom configured equipment to them. Half the buying we did were Apple systems.
-==-
People have tried writing Steve Jobs, petitions, you name it. They do this all the time with notebooks. Their ram and HD upgrades are a ripoff anyway, I just add that stuff later. Apple won't take the machine back if there is a problem.
Worse, IMHO, is that there is no way to get Apple to send you a machine in the interim while yours is getting fixed. I make money with my hardware, and if I don't have a machine, that costs me a lot of money. So I have to have a backup machine just for that eventuality. Kinda stupid eh?
Hey Apple Executives, if you ever read anything here, FIX THIS BEFORE IT BITES YOU. This is one part of Apple that is really lacking, and coinidentally I'm sure, it's also one that Steve Jobs doesn't have a lot of personal expertise with.
I'm already paying a huge premium for Apple hardware. I would gladly pay a little more for the ability to get a hotswap done - Applecare does not offer this.
..don't panic
I have probably bought more than 200 hundred Macintoshes over the last 15+ years, direct from stores, from Apple, and from distributors, many for personal use, some part of business projects. In nearly every case, it was either explicitly or implicitly understood that "modifications" to the stock machine (modem cards, video cards, RAM, drives, etc.) were my responsibility; most of the time, it was clear that warranty issues were my headache with the manufacturer, and the seller was not going to handle them, let alone returns.
Apple's customizing, with warranty support, is a blessing for those who don't want to or know how to open the box and insert cards, etc.
As far as returns: in my experience, returning unwanted (as opposed to defective) components or machines can usually be done, regardless of the policy, if you handle the request diplomatically and demonstrate that you are a good and longstanding customer. I doubt small claims court accomplishes that.
Didn't Apple take Virginia Tech's PowerMac G5s back? I'm pretty sure those were "custom configured".
but if they have a notice posted doesn't that make you SOL?
Granted, yes it's a rather ridiculous policy. But, if you look at a definition of custom built their system falls under it. Also there IS that notice explaining their policies.
Buyers need to use sense. Especially tech buyers. It's not much tougher than that.
"It'll destroy you if you try to make it mean anything to anyone but yourself." - Henry Rollins
When I ordered my Ti Powerbook a few years ago, I had some additional RAM and a larger HD installed. When I opened the computer, I found that my new computer had three dead up pixels. The first thing I tried to do was to return the computer of course. The way I see it, people order vehicles with custom options and can expect to get a working product. Why can't a user? Customizations are fairly common. It's not like 100s of PBs with extra HD space and RAM weren't made just like mine that week. My computer could be easily resold as a refurbished unit. Needless to say, I spent the next year fighting Apple with Visa's help. I withheld payment on the grounds of a defective product. I ended up getting $200 from Apple, just to make me feel better.
I think there is something wrong with a policy like this. It's a technicality, and a bullshit one at that.
Yeah, I have a few suggestions/comments/whatever...if you can't live with their policies:
- Caveat emptor.
- Don't buy an Apple.
- Buy an IBM.
- Buy an HP.
I guess these suggestions look a little harsh, which was not my intention, but at this point you're probably better off cutting your losses and moving on.Nice work on smearing Apple's name in public to get what you feel is yours though. You may have done well to ensure that they've lost whatever revenue they've saved with their policy. Hey -- it worked (on a different level) for those iPod battery applesdirtysecret guys, right?
-Turkey
That only means Apple is a grossly inefficient company. 20% SG&A vs. 8% R&D? WTF?
What juridiction is this guy in? In my state, small claims court does not allow attorneys. You can still go to civil court for similar amounts and use an attorney, but not small claims. I can't imagine Apple going to court without an attorney. The usual tactic for big companies is to get the case moved to circuit court. This involves months of waiting to get on the docket and can be quite expensive. This story, if true, would be very odd.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(TM)
I can give a Credit Card for the down-- seeing as my CC Co. allows returns -- I got a big date this weekend and I'd like to 'impress' -- sure the car does not "meet my needs and I don't want to be forced to keep it" -- but it is so schweet... and I'm a lazy bastard who can't be bothered to go down to the Ferrari dealership and test drive the thing to realize it is not the right car for me...
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON
I don't know, ask your parents... or better yet, your minister... Hell why don't you just give it up, come to terms with your latent homosexual tendencies and be the ultimate 'switcher' that you know you are...
That's not entirely true - if the customer was to return the product damaged, the store can refuse to return it. ...just imagine a French guy walking into a pharmacist and saying "This condom wasn't to my satisfaction - I want to return it".
He purchased a computer, bought some other parts from somewhere else, installed them and wants to return the computer and these extra parts to Apple.
Why should you be able to do that? Notice the "off of their website" part? duhh.
that are too stupid to read (and understand) the point. The poster never claimed that Apple wouldn't give warantee support for a broken product. Apparently he got the product, didn't like it, and tried to send it back. Their web site clearly says they won't take it.
This is not just Apple. Buy anything in the whole store at CompUSA, for example, decide you don't like it, take it back. Guess what? They will take it but they will dock you 15% of the price.
Maybe if the poster was able to read he wouldn't have had this problem.
How else do you customize it? Tell Apple to build you a special graphics card with an all-new chip created just for you?
Yes, you are choosing a system that is not 'standard,' therefore you have customized it.
If I order a new car, but get a sunroof added, it is customized, even though the sunroof is a normal option that the dealer offers. If I get a car that has the sunroof included as part of a higher-end package, then it's not customized.
Likewise, if I order a 1.6GHz Power Mac G5, then upgrade the memory to 512MB, it's custom. If I order the Dual 1.8 that comes standard with 512MB, it's not custom.
If the 6-disc CD changer in the car is not part of any package, then adding it makes the car custom. If I add Bluetooth to my G5, it's custom. Any change that is *NOT* part of a preselected package makes the computer custom. It is very cut and dry.
Admittedly, the policy on Apple's part sucks, but it is their policy, and you agreed to it when you ordered the computer. Just sell the thing and be done with it. But don't come crying to us because you didn't read the contract all the way.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Though i think it would make more sense for them to make you pay a 15% restocking fee if you bought custom. Apple really doesn't like selling custom computers cause it's a nuiscense for them.
It's a cheap end run around warranty requirements and I'm pretty disappointed in Apple for doing it and for the court to uphold it - whether or not the OP (thats not me, BTW) was doing the correct thing in attempting the return at all is a totally different issue.
Since there are few details provided, its hard to say, but I wonder if there wuld have been better luck returning say a 20" iMac for an exchange on a G5 w/ Cinema Display setup.
Try anyone else - Dell, Gateway, etc. Customize the system, then try to return it for a non-warranty reason.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
Obviously, unlike a PC, a Mac computer "just works."
Therefore, it doesn't need a return policy.
But then again, we rarely do. We usually order what we want, configured how we need it. But at least a couple of times, recently, we sent back something in order to get something else.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
Let me see if I can summarize his post so even a dumbass like you can understand:
1) He bought a server from Apple's online store, and modified the configuration via Apple-installed RAM and drives.
2) For whatever reason he then decided to return this customized server to Apple.
3) Apple pointed out their written "no returns on customized machines" policy to him.
4) He sued in small claims court and rightfully lost.
5) He posted on here to whine about it.
As I'm sure you all know, even the submitter of the original question, this is all fairly typical behavior for Apple. It's the sort of behavior that's the reason why I've gone from having one Apple machine on my desktop as a college student, to having two rather old apples and two homebuilt PCs instead- while at the same time, I'd rather have a dual G5, if only I could afford one. (Which, technically, I suppose I could, if I'd been willing to stick with my 5400/120 for the last four years, and saved all the money I spent on computers in the meantime.) I still love Apple machines, and I still lust after the newest ones, but I still feel that, eventually, Apple is going to murder itself with nonsense like this, and with the iPod batteries.
This makes me reconsider whether or not I should try to save $29 by not getting the 56 Kbps internal modem with a new Dual G5.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Why is it that people seem to think Apple's written policies simply do not apply to them? And if people act this way with other companies, why does it only seem to be newsworthy when Apple is involved?
First we've got the iPod retards, who apparently think there are at least eighteen months in a year. I mean, why else would they act like Apple owes them something under the terms of a one-year warranty when their battery dies eighteen months after purchase? Are they traveling at the speed of light? Do they use the Martian calendar? Who knows? They also seem to think that Apple told them the battery would never die, but that's another rant.
Now we've got this other tool posting his whine about not being allowed to return a customized machine. The link to Apple's written policy on that is only on the bottom of every page generated by the Apple Store web site, so it's easy to see how he failed to see it. So now he's trying to raise a public stink in the hopes Apple will make an exception for him to quash the bad publicity he's trying to generate.
These people who flagrantly ignore written policies and then get indignant about it must be the same type of people who park their hulking SUVs in spaces marked "Compact Only." I think the next time I see one of those, I'll key it to demonstrate my contempt.
~Philly
I just got back from expecting the world and all companies it encompasses to revolve around me, even though I spent a couple grand on a product without clicking a link to see the explicitly stated return policy, or lack thereof. Now heap sympathy on me. I am a victim, and I know you all hate big companies and will concur with my short-on-facts synopsis.
You know what?
You are lucky you live in the US where the laws allow idiot consumers taht spend too much money to simply change their mind and return used products. This is most especially true with cars when if you want a custom order from the factory that might not have good resale value if you return it, you have to jump through hoops to convince a dealer to do it.
As near as I can tell, Apple is the only company that has such a restrictive policy.
Because you called HP and IBM? So, as near I can tell Apple, HP, and IBM are the only computer manufactors in business, right?
This is just one more reason not to buy RAM or harddrives from apple. They're overpriced. Check dealram.com, dealmac.com, & pricewatch.com instead.
--
A little nonsense now and then is cherished by the wisest men. -Willy Wonka
If you had your order shipped to you, as you must have, you probably ordered it over the internet, correct? You will have then paid with a credit card. Both MasterCard and AmericanExpress (and others, I'm sure) guarentee items you purchase with your card. They state that if the merchant you bought something from won't take it back, they will. You might wanna give them a call to find out the details as they apply to your card.
Good luck!
If you wanted to make your net profits look smaller, where would you shift the money?
read the return policy before you buy the product.
i dont understand people who buy something without reading the return policy and bitch about the policy they agreed to by buying the product.
i dont think the return policy should be so strict, but i also dont think the customer should be so dense.
Why do I find it hard to believe those numbers? :-)
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Post it on SlashDot How it is a crock Want to dump your Mac Get your money back It's on eeee-Baaaaayyyy (I'd sing it for you, but I have a cold)
IANAL, but I happen to have one on staff. Major corporations, like Apple, almost never appear in small claims. They will either try to have the case moved to a higher court (a slow and expensive process, because it almost always requires that the consumer hire a lawyer), or they will simply not show up and pay whatever fine (the max is usually $5,000) the judge throws at them. Corporate lawyers are expensive. At the rate Apple has to pay its lawyers, it just doesn't make sense for them to show up in court.
-Shylock
Statistically speaking, there's a 99.998% chance that my IQ is higher than yours. Get over it.
Apple has numerous authorized resellers out there, next time look at buying your product from them. Most of the resellers I know of have much more leniant return policies and sometimes you can even get a better price. As long as the vendor doesn't advertise a lower price, that would violate the "minimum advertized pricing, but they can sell at a lower price. ...and remember, they're call "VALUE ADDED Resellers" for a reason, you just have to find the added value yourself.
I recently bought a car. There was no "return it for you money back if you don't like it" policy. In fact, the policy is simple: you bought it; you got it.
If I wanted to return it, I would have to sell it as used. Even if all I did was drive it out of the lot, around the block, and back in.
Apple's terms are stated on their website. They explain their return policy in the "returns" section on their website. The same website used to make the purchase. It's not hard; it just takes a minimum of effort to be informed as to the terms of the deal.
Just this past Christmas, I got to deal with this very issue.
:)
A long-time frustrated Windows user (who isn't?), I decided to finally take the plunge and get a 20" iMac.
Well, I got one with a stuck pixel (red) in the middle of the screen. I was incensed, but did my homework and read all about Apple's "tolerance" of such things. I also should note I upgraded the HD and memory when purchasing. Well, after three support calls where I was very inflexible (no yelling, though), I actually got them to take it back, beating both the stuck pixel policy and the "no returns on custom-configured systems" policy. Just stick to your guns, and you can get what you want. On a last note, the iMac they replaced it with has a stuck pixel as well, in a much less prominent place. So the real moral of the story might be "don't bother".
The most important right is choice. Allow the consumer to choose what to buy and where to buy it. Here in the US (I can't speak to Europe), a consumer has a lot of choices. However, in order to use these choices well, a consumer also has to ask questions and understand the terms of the deal. I can shop at a Mom & Pop, CompUSA, Best Buy, online, or eBay -- just to name a few choices. The terms are different in each circumstance.
Maybe I don't value the XX day change-my-mind warranty. In that case, I can shop someplace else that offers me lower prices or other things I value more.
Caveat emptor
Consumer Reports consistently ranks Apple #1 in lowest incidence of repair and best support among all computer manufacturers.
Most recent Consumer Reports report available on their web site (June 2003)
Most recent report, available to CR subscribers, referenced in News.com article (March 2004)
So if Apple's support is "horrible", then I guess everyone else is a lot worse (especially since Dell, the next closest to Apple, got the middle rating on 3 out of 4 support categories, while Apple got the top rating in all categories).
Alienware and several small time pc sellers take a similar stance on 'customized' hardware, even when the customization is just adding harddrives or ram. It's pretty bad that Apple is doing this though, what would happen is Dell acted like this, every pc they sell is customized based on this logic.
Include the $4bn in cash they're sitting on, earning interest. Then they get a little extra to become profitable.
Similar to M$ and their $52bn.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Yeah. I used to love this about Mac/MicroWarehouse & DataComm. They rocked, and they also had a great support policy. They would add a year of support for their products, so if the vendor support sucked you could contact them. But this is one of the reasons they went bankrupt as well, their great return, support, and service policies, didn't make them as much money as companies who refused the returns, limited support, etc.
CDW, while not a bad company, I swear one of their tech people was pretty much like "we don't support that" so na, na, na nahhh. I could practically hear the tech singing through the phone.
But Mac/Micro Warehouse was great. I've even ordered the wrong hardware, attempted to use it, call them back, and they exchange for the correct hardware, before receiving the old hardware back. (sigh) I miss them (tear).
Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative.
The purchase was a dual processor Xserve. I upgraded from 512MB of memory to 2GB and from 60GB of disk space to 480GB.
I was totally aware of Apples return policy before placing my order. My dispute is: Does selecting additional memory or disk drives really constitute a product that is "custom configured to your specifications". According to the defense that Apple used, even adding one stick of memory would have made it custom configured. My upgrades were selected from a standard menu on their website. I didn't call and ask for some esoteric tape drive or anything like that. In court someone brought up the analogy of buying a car. My response to that was, if I am buying a brand new car off the lot, and I ask for an automatic transmission (which usually costs more), I still have a stock car. No one is going to say that I bought a customized car. Knowing what I know now, I would order the hard drives and memory separately and install them myself after the 10-day evaluation period.
I appreciate the comment made by one poster regarding how the sales clerk made the return policy very clear. I think that Apple's website should be as clear. Maybe "Custom Configured" icons could be located next to the items that will affect the return policy. Apple's defense claimed that it states at the top of the web page "Configure your Xserve" and that this should be enough of an indicator. But, options included on this very same page also include the "Mac OS X Server Maintenance Program", "AppleCare Service and Parts Kits for Xserve" and AppleCare support Plans. Surely selecting these items wouldn't constitute a custom configured product. And at no other time during the purchase process, including my invoice receipt from Apple did it indicate that I was purchasing a custom configured product that could not be returned. I certainly don't think that Apple deliberately sets out to trap customers into purchasing items that can't be refunded. But, on the other hand their policies and procedures sure don't give the impression of being well thought out, or cohesive.
As for the concern about whether I was returning the product because I just changed my mind or it because it was broke. I'm not sure if the reason really matters, unless Apple wants to use the information to possibly make changes in their product or policies. After all, their policy does state "if you are not satisfied". It says nothing about have to give reasons. But, since people are curious .... The hardware worked without fail for the 10 days that we evaluated machine. In fact the hardware is the reason that we were attracted to the Xserve. The problems were related to the software. We found Apple's customized version of BSD Unix to be difficult to work with. We would add commonly used Open Source software and it would break some Apple proprietary interface, or vice versa. We really tried hard for the 10 days to make this machine work for us. And we found it frustrating every step of the way. I attribute this to Apple's proprietary way of doing things. But, the clincher for us was when we started with a clean install of OS 10, added Webmin (a commonly used remote admin program), and the server would crash when trying to remotely reboot it, from the shell prompt. This was very easily reproducible. And also totally unacceptable since the final destination for this box is a data center where hands-on reboots are a rare event. I know that I could have worked with Apple and probably gotten a patch for this issue. However, it seemed serious enough for me to decide to return the product, and look elsewhere.
I did give serious thought to installing Yellow Dog Linux on the machine and not even dealing with Apple's version of BSD Unix, but after havi
I bought a Saturn a couple of years ago from a Saturn dealership and I had a 'Return it if you hate it*' option.
That * is for 'up to 60 days' (I think), by the way.
fs
From apple store for French customers (same must apply in EU)
7. Votre droit de retourner les Produits
7.1 Si vous n'etes pas satisfait de l'un quelconque des Produits ou des termes de tout ordre de Services que vous nous avez achetes, vous pourrez nous retourner les Produit ou annuler cet ordre de Services, et obtenir le remboursement du prix du Produit retourne ou de l'ordre de Service si vous nous contactez dans les dix (10) Jours Ouvres a compter de la livraison du Produit ou dans les 10 Jours Ouvres de la conclusion de cet ordre de Services. Cependant, vous ne pourrez pas nous retourner un Produit et reclamer un remboursement si le Produit concerne est un Logiciel que nous vous avons livre dans un emballage ferme et inutilise et que vous avez ouvert l'emballage. Vous ne pourrez pas obtenir le remboursement de tout ordre de Service si vous avez commence a utiliser le Service.
7.2 Afin d'exercer votre droit de retourner un Produit ou d'un ordre de Service qui ne vous satisfait pas, vous devez nous telephoner au numero 0800 046 046 entre 9 heures et 22 heures du lundi au vendredi, pour definir les modalites concernant la restitution. Vous devez nous retourner les Produits dans leur emballage d'origine et le Produit doit etre intact. Vous devez obtenir et conserver une copie signee du document d'enlevement au moment de la reprise des Produits par le transporteur.
7.3 A condition que les Produits nous etant retournes soient intacts, nous vous rembourserons le prix paye pour les Produits retournes.
Basically, as long as the products are intacts, they are reinbursed 10 business days after delivery. The main exception is software sold in a sealed package and returned unsealed.
So, in France, Apple is more nice that the law (10 day instead of 7), no matter what the configuration is.
You purchased a machine and were unable to get it to work with your software modifications. So, you want to return it. Given the difficulty and complexity of the task you describe, I do not doubt for a second you knew very well that you were buying a customized with a no-BTO return policy. It is absolutely clear to me that you wanted to get out of the problem by means of a loophole.
One thing about judges is that they are trained to smell bullshit, and I have to say your story reeks to high heaven. There is no way you were unaware of the policy or of the fact that you were in fact ordering a BTO machine.
Sir, I hate to say it, but you are a fool.
If your employer is reading this, he or she would be wise to fire you immediately. If you are your own employer, have mercy on your employees and hire someone else to do tech purchasing.
You spent a year "fighting Apple with Visa's help"--you know, as though Visa was some ally in a war or something--instead of sending the unit to Apple for repair after they told you that custom-configured units aren't eligible for returns? (Forgetting that it says this on the Apple Store site, anyway.)
Honestly, man. A week or two, TOPS, and you would have had a brand-new display assembly (at the time you bought your PowerBook, Apple's LCD replacement policy was a minimum of three dead pixels or six dead sub-pixels, and I think it's at least similar today--I haven't had to check in a while).
It's not like Apple won't service a unit after you buy it CTO or anything. They treat them just the same as stock units. This article summary, like so many others, is a bit FUDish and misleading, I'm afraid.
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
I make my living with my computer.
..don't panic
Again, they still honor their warranty, this is only relating to someone who buys the machine, then decides he doesn't want it within his '30-day return' and tries to send it back.
And my car analogy was meaning a car with a factory-provided CD changer, but one that must be added separately. For example, my wife and I are planning on buying a Toyota Prius soon. It comes in one of 9 'packages'. A 6-disc CD changer is included in some packages, but not others. If we get a package without it, then have them add it, it's still being done by Toyota. But it is now 'custom'. To me, Apple's equivalent are the three 'main' configurations. 1.6, 2x1.8, and 2x2.0. If you want anything that's not one of those standard packages (including upgrading memory, or video card,) then it's custom.
Toyota will take my Prius back within 7 days if I don't like it. *IF* I choose one of the 9 packages. If I choose a low-level package, then have them add the CD changer, they won't take it back. Yes, it's still under full warranty (just like a custom Mac,) but I can't just return it because I decide I don't like it.
Again: CUSTOM COMPUTERS STILL HAVE FULL WARRANTY! (Sorry, lots of people seem to be missing this part.)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
You don't get any sympathy from me until I hear a bit more about why you were trying to return the system, and why you ended up in small claims.
Gets his ass kicked in court over something he should have known (rtfs - read the fscking site, bonehead) then he comes here to whine about it. Better call the whaaaaaaaambulance! It is kind of a harsh policy though. They could probably do better with something like a restocking fee if they have to take back something that is custom configured.
Get an attorney and seek a "trial de novo" in a "real" court. The Apple Co, cannot disclaim two of the implied warranties (fitness for an intended purpose and merchantability) for a certain period after purchase.
MOVE NOW!
Written on a 12" pBook
I ran into that very issue. However, I did not order my computer from the website, I talked to a rep on the phone who neglected to tell me of this policy. The coup de gras is that the when I approached Apple, they claimed that since it was on their website, I was informed. Apple is an extreme case of excellent engineering thwarted by arrogant and worthless management.
If your entire living is dependant on your computer and you don't have at least 1 extra computer and all of your files backed up, then you are very very foolish indeed. You could easily and legitimatly write off an extra computer as a buisiness expense. Also, what took a month to be serviced for your computer? The one time I had a problem Apple paid to have my computer overnighted both ways and I had it back within 4 days (including sunday).
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals."
How about the fact that they have a policy forbidding employees to:
* Post any "pictures, information, or commentary" about Apple "products, services, or initiatives" on my website on my own time. That means even saying "I love the new Mac I just bought. It's so fast and pretty," or "Look at this funny picture of me typing on my iBook while crammed into a Japanese subway car," or "My mom has an old Blueberry iMac. Boy does she love that old computer," in my blog would be grounds for freaking termination.
The sane policy Apple should have: Not allow employees to publish on their websites information, etc. about unreleased products. Also you can't post negative commentary about any Apple product/service/initiative in any way that can be linked to your identity or employment at the company.
* Post anything on any "Mac-related websites." This, I'm assuming, probably covers apple.slashdot.org, meaning that I'm not allowed to be writing this very post.
The sane policy Apple should have: Employees should be prohibited from (1) identifying themselves as an employee on said websites. (2) posting any information not publicly known outside the company. There should be nothing wrong with posting on MacNN or whatever to say "Hey, my PB 12" fan is on way too much. What's the name of that freeware app to fix that?" (3) Posting anything in threads about rumors.
These are just a couple of the several ridiculous policies that I was informed of when I started at the company that turned me from a Mac fanboy and Apple apologist to a cynical Apple-hater. I'm only staying there because I need the money right now. Apple thinks it's the freaking Pentagon, and frankly, their paranoid lawyer-drafted policies are offensive, inconvenient, and unrealistic.
> Employees are treated very well at Apple.
Every large corporation treats its $100,000 a year employees well. I'm sure Apple does what you described in terms of vacation for its "real" employees in California headquarters. Of course, those of us in Retail part-time receive no cushy benefits to make up for the stupid rules like the ones above (which I understand apply to you too). I'm not asking for benefits (no part-time job offers benefits really) but just pointing out that it sucks a whole lot more when you have a part-time job that offers no advantages over working at Kroger or Wal-Mart but regulates your online activities as if you're working for the NSA. Something you should know is that no rank-and-file Retail employee knows anything even remotely secret. It's policy not to tell us anything. (This is as it should be.) We learn about new products the same way everyone else (i.e. the public) does. Never sooner. Bearing this in mind, it's pretty stupid to put such tight controls on information. This is like telling the guy who empties the White House dumpster that he's not allowed to ever post about the President on his website, or post anything on politics websites.
If I worked for Corporate, I would still be a little bit annoyed by the tight info controls, but I would understand the justification much more since I'd actually know some classified things. I probably wouldn't complain though, because I'd be to busy counting my large wads of cash. So yes, the real issue here is that that company treats some segments of their employees poorly. Corporate is not one of those segments. With like 70 or so stores now, that's a significant group of employees being subjected to this. It's not as if there are just 12 of us out there, so apple should treat us well too.
Where do I sign up? What do you do? As long as the word "poop" isn't part of your job title, and you're not a photographer for goatse, I'd probably be willing.
The problem is that even Apple thinks their policies don't apply to them.
I had a friend who bought an iBook. 3-4 days after it arrived, the new iBooks were announced. Because she ordered it ground UPS, it took a while to get to her- almost a week, I believe. Now- pay close attention here- Apple's policy is that you have ten days from when you RECEIVED IT. Not when you ordered it. Fair, right?
Would be, if they honored that. Instead, they told her she couldn't return it because "it was shipped to you over ten days ago". She read the policy right off the Apple Store website, and demanded to know why the policy on the site wasn't being followed. They eventually hung up on her.
Sorry, but my experience over the years has been that their customer support/service is piss-poor. I actually got screamed at by one of their Customer Care Advocates, a department(which no longer exists) which was supposed to be a sort of "level 2" if you weren't happy with how you got treated. Why? Because after 2 repair attempts my brand-new(at the time) powerbook 1400 wasn't working properly. The only time I've ever been pleased with apple service was when I wasn't dealing with actual Apple employees. I once broke the bezel on my 8500, a few months after i bought it. I walked into an Apple dealer, asked if I could order a replacement. "Is it under warranty? Oh wait, you said 8500- they have to be under warranty. [click click click click] OK, come back in a few days, we'll have it". In college, when the 1400 lost a screen clutch cover, the resident apple-certified tech said "oh sure, I can get those", and a few days later he had a bag of 6; I got two for free.
I think the next time I see one of those, I'll key it to demonstrate my contempt.
To turn your quote back on yourself, "why is it that people think they're above the law and can damage other people's property in some lame-ass attempt at vigilantism?"
Please help metamoderate.
Yeah, CompUSA will take it back. That's the point. Likewise, as people point out in this thread, many other server vendors will take a return, while charging a restocking fee. Restocking fees are fair. According to the OP, Apple won't take it back at all. That sucks. The OP didn't say it was an undisclosed policy. He just indicated that it sucked.
Look on the bright side- you have unreturnable APPLE kit.
You should have no trouble getting most of your money back unloading it on Ebay.
He never mentioned bricks or mortar. Perhaps he meant Apple's online store at store.apple.com, which is called, coincidentally, "The Apple Store."
It's offtopic, but Google has a define keyword. Try http://www.google.com/search?q=define:Caveat emptor
I purchased a G5 through Apple last year at Christmas time. I customized it and all, blah blah blah. Because I had moved to a new state in the meantime, MBNA cancelled the order and had it shipped back to apple the day it was supposed to arrive It just suddenly appeared on the tracking information that the package was to be returned. After fighting wiht MBNA for about an hour, I finally decided to just let them win and sever my relationship with them. I'd just go and get a Mac in a couple of months instead of getting it on credit. The problem was NO ONE KNEW WHERE THE PACKAGE WAS. Not fedex, not MBNA, not Apple, and they refused to credit my account until they found out where it was. Nevermind that I wasn't the one who returned it, they were holding me liable for a product that I never received. Apple and MNBA were particularly nasty about it saying that they could do nothing. They kept claiming that they would not charge me for something that I never received, but when I asked them to credit my account, they were still adamant about not crediting it to my account. For a full month, NO ONE KNEW WHERE THE 3000 USD computer was. Apple still refused to credit my account even though they couldn't find the computer. MBNA was STILL CHARGING ME INTEREST telling me not to worry everything was all right. Needless to say I no longer want a G5 and I no longer want to do business with MBNA. I learned an important lesson that day. Even potentially loayal customers do not have a chance in this environment. I went back to building my own PC, where at least I have less risk of losing money and I control my own tech support. It may be more work, but I don't have to beg Corporations to be reasonable each time I have a legitimate grievance with them.
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
I *do* find the reasoning behind the return - if as clear as the writter makes it - to be reasonable.
The POINT of a 10 day eval is to do just what the writer did - evaluate the unit, in this case the 3rd party software compatibility.
I would agree that if there are "add-ons" available during the buying process, they should be noted as "customizations". To further the car analogy, usually "dealer installed options" and "manufacturer options" are differentiated on the window sticker (dealer options are often a smaller sticker to the right of the large dealer window sticker in my experiences).
In either case, I am disappointed that Apple would refuse a return configured only with appel memory and apple hard drive options.
I do love Apple, but i have found their sales and returns policies to be in need of improvement in my own personal experience.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
oh and BTW it had memory and a airport card added by me, if you look at their website your allowed to add these things, it even has a section for user installed parts. Custom orders are getting a superdrive in a computer that doesnt normally have it, in which case its very understandable why they wont take it back... what the hell are they going to do with it once it gets there, cant resell it as new, take too long to pull the superdrive out of it. A very fair policy IMHO
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Well, knowing my experience with Dell and Fujitsu, anything you change from what they offer on the website is considered custom.
I bought my Dell a long time ago, but I remember fujitsu's. When I opped to have more memory installed, there was a disclaimer on the bottom stating that it's a custom configuration and that returns are not possible [cash return].
Just think of it as some assembly line piecing the same ol stuff together [or several highly trained monkeys]. Once someone asks for something different, it'd have to go to a different person who knows what needs to be done.
Easy example, go to one of Dell's offered PCs that go for a few hundred. Once you touch anything in the configuration menu, that price will jump up! Even if you switch it back to the original configuration!
Nowhere on the page does it say "Warning: changing any of these drop-down lists from the default configuration constitutes ordering a custom-built computer, which you won't be able to return"
What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht
Apple has horrible customer support - accept it
No.
So far, I've had several problems with my Powerbook. First, I dropped it, causing the bottom part of the case to warp; they fixed it in the Apple store in 20 minutes even though it was pretty obvious it was not a manufacturing problem. Second, I dropped it again, (yes I know, I'm a klutz) this time bending the power adapter, making it difficult to get it to stay in the machine. Again, 20 minutes at the Apple store, and I had not only a new power adapter, but also an extension for it (for those who don't know, this usually involves buying a new $80 power adapter to get) just by asking "Hey, you think I could have an extension?". Again, this was pretty obviously my fault.
I can't speak for their phone support, but their in-store support is among the best I've ever seen.
Worse, IMHO, is that there is no way to get Apple to send you a machine in the interim while yours is getting fixed.
Customer: "My Powerbook is broken."
Apple: "OK, here's an iBook you can use while we fix it. Now send in your powerbook."
*6 weeks later*
Customer: "Whoops, forgot to send in the powerbook!"
*6 months later*
Customer: "Whoops, forgot to send in the powerbook!"
Oh yes. Brilliant business plan.
So I have to have a backup machine just for that eventuality.
Get a friend to loan you a machine.
I've got more mod points and GMail invi
I had absolutely no trouble returning my Belkin Tunecast for a new one. Mine was completely DOA. I was very worried that they would do exactly what you describe, but they did not.
They respond to government bids with a price so low you can't refuse, lock you in to a year, or multi-year agreement and then a month later that special part number cheap system is 'discontinued' and you come back with a system where they make money.
The "life" of most portable devices is determined by how long the battery lasts. Apple just stated it the other way around... still means the same thing.
I've got more mod points and GMail invi
Just kidding...
i get 27% off ...... you are correct in saying that it is 1 system a year. I can also get 17 % 3 systems for family and friends each year.
The moment you changed the basic config, the computer became custom config, something that the customer (you) specified. What is so hard to understand here?
Did you have problems with the computer? If not, I have to side with Apple on this one. If you have had a problem, and Apple had refused to deal with your problem, then Apple would have been wrong. Judging by the court's decision, probably Apple is right.
This was small claims court... not a big precedent.. and the result is not surprising.
.. it's a valid question.
First.. before you state "Oh, everyone else takes them back!"... With the exception of certain types of items in certain states, like cars, homes, etc... the sale of a consumer item is automatically final unless stated otherwise. I'm not talking about implied warrantees or anything like that... obviously if the thing you bought was sold under false pretense, or misrepresented, or is just plain broken, the retailer must take it back.
If, however, the device was sold properly, and functions as it was supposed to, the retailer is under no obligation to take it back. If I sell you something at the grocery store, I don't have to take a returned item just because you didn't open it.
Now, as a matter of good customer service, most large vendors DO take unopened returns... the cost to them is minimal, and it generates goodwill...
At issue here was whether apple's own policy was being violated.
It's more to protect the costumers against unwanted deals.
Pushing, annoying door to door salesman or sales which turn out to be unfair to the costumer or things that don't do what were advertised to do. Or when you are "tricked" into buying things, you don't actually need.
Having 7 days to return something or to cancel a deal is valid for every transaction. It's not something certain stores do and others don't. it's everyone, or should be everyone by law.
Not everyone is an informed costumer. Or is as cunning not to be tricked.
The thing that you have to realize when using OS X server, is NOT to fight the native tools. Don't use WebMin to reboot an XServe remotely, use Apple's server admin tool. Why? Because WebMin isn't designed to administer OS X Server machines, and Server Admin is.
This is the biggest stumbling block that old-time UNIX weenies will have with Macs in the next few years. On the mac, DO NOT pop a terminal window and start editing the config files by hand unless you know what you're doing. I know that you like doing it that way on other UNIX/UNIX-like systems, but that's because the GUI admin tools for those systems are seriously lame, as a rule.
Note that knowing how to do a similar operation on Solaris or Linux is NOT the same thing as knowing what you're doing on the Mac. If you insist on treating it like a generic UNIX box, you're just going to fuck it up.
Apple's support people are some of the best I've ever seen once you get past the 'warm body' level. Apple like everyone else is dealing with uncountable swarms of people who are unable to read dialog boxes.
Frankly though, if you spend the time looking through Apple's knowledge base, don't find a fix and call them (and explain the steps you've performed) you'll move 'up the ladder' much more quickly.
I appreciate the suggestions to get recourse through the credit card company. However, Apple does not offer credit card purchases for the Xserve. So, the same Apple web pages that I used to purchase the Xserve, also suggested that I apply for credit through MBNA to purchase the Xserve. So, I did. Unfortunately, for me, this "Apple Loan" from MBNA does not offer the same protections that a credit card purchase does.
Just one more reason not to do business with either MBNA or Apple.
Whenever I am late on a credit card bill and I damned well know it, I don't waste time or energy trying to argue my way out of a late fee because I know I won't win. On the other hand, I've won a few small one-offs here and there from Apple and other companies... and I take them as they come, but I don't come to expect them. Why not? Because I accept responsibility for the agreements into which I enter.
Next time, I would check to see if any Apple Care plans extend the warranty coverage to items you had them install. Note that the Apple Care coverage doesn't cover your own modifications performed by yourself... but it may very well cover modifications installed by Apple... presumably the coverage applies if the coverage purchased is for the MODIFIED package, and not the express or implied warranties associated with the separate components.
The challenge here comes in the definition of a product. Say I have product A and product B... Product A has a warranty... Product B has a warranty. Now I put Product A and Product B... legally, neither manufacturer of A or B is required to provide a warranty of mercantability guaranteeing the functionality of the products put together, nor are they required to protect against damages incurred by the combining of the products.
It is their right, however, to offer a service coverage for the combined product (Let's call it "AB".), apart from the legally-required warranties of mercantability. This is why there are extended warranties... partly... not just because they make extra money, but because a warranty of mercantability will only go as far as it's legally required to go... Logically...
How many people drive below the speed limit, as opposed to at the speed limit? When you understand why everyone tends to push all the way to the speed limit, then you'll understand why companies don't offer free coverages that they aren't legally required to... and why should they?
More legislation won't fix this, either. Why? When companies are forced to spend more on R&D and RMA processes to satisfy such legislation, they will do it... and pass the increased costs on to every consumer... whereas extended warranties or service plans allow the costs to pass on to only those customers who think they might benefit from it.
Litigation also pours gasoline on the fire... the increased legal costs are passed on to the customer base, as well. So, next time you buy a product... read the fine print. If the company doesn't offer what you want... don't waste time complaining, go to a company that does.
That type of consumer accountability is what forces companies to be more competitive in their offerings.