"socialist" is pretty much anyone who's to the left of Reagan
Reagan was pretty socialist, for big businesses, the military, and law enforcement, but not for others. He was also friendly to the fossil fuel industries.
If you want electric cars to be delivered next year you just have to do one thing -- increase the price of fuel dramatically. Until that happens none of this matters and no efforts short of that to move to electric cars will work.
A Net Zero Fuel Tax has been proposed that would do that. Tax on fuel would be raised while people would get a cut in their income tax. If the average person's fuel cost increased $20 people would get a $20 income tax cut. This would encourage people to demand and buy more fuel efficient vehicles.
Not even half a gigabuck will convince Americans to ride bikes. *ducks*
I used to ride my bike 100 to 200 miles a week. That ended when I was hit while riding my bike. While in a coma the docs told my family it would be a miracle if I lived, instead my life has been a living hell. I wish I had died.
The state do not have to take the money from the government, they chose to do so. I fact, they don't have to pay many of the taxes to the feds that they do, they choose to. Usually becasue there is something for them in the deal.
If federal taxes weren't so high states could raise their own taxes instead of begging the federal government. And states don't pay taxes, the residents of the state do, and they have to otherwise IRS goon squads will show up with guns.
"ut 'everybody' seemed to be the ones either handing out the money or the politically connected people who were lining up to take the money"
as well as many actual experts not getting a single penny.
And there were other experts who opposed the bailouts. Those calling for the bailouts were from the Keynesian school of economics whereas some of those opposed were from the Chicago school of economics originated by Milton Friedman that called for free markets and free trade.
TARP may of been needed but if so then strings should have been placed on the funds, such as requiring banks to lend money instead of using it to buy competitors and hoarding the money. Money was given to banks because they were too big to fail, well now they're massive and when they crash again the government won't be able to bail them out.
The bailout also gave bad banks advantages over banks that were properly run and didn't make bad loans. Good banks and borrowers were made to pay for those who made bad loans and those who took out bad loans. In other words the government was choosing winners and losers instead of letting the markets do it.
Government was already fund Detroit. While I don't like government subsidies whereas 2 of the Detroit big 3 are bankrupt, Tesla looks to be profitable.
f cars like these get the same battery economy that would mean $25k every 5-7 years according to their FAQ.
After 5 year their batteries are supposed to hold 70% of their new charge capacity, so they really don't need to be replaced, unless the owner needs the range.
do you think that the people that like to buy $50-60k cars try to eke 200,000 miles out of them, or do they tend to be people that like to have a new car every few years?
If I could afford to buy new cars every few years, I'd still keep a car as long as I could. The only reason I'd buy a new one to replace the old one was because it was costing too much to keep. Instead of spending money on new toys, I'd rather invest the money. Or donate it.
You should be able to find a perfectly reliable, reasonably safe used car for just a few grand. It may not be pretty, but it will do fine.
When you buy a used car you're buying someone else's problems more than likely. Now I've bought 5 used cars, and one new car I still have after 9 years. Of those I have had to work on 4, one I had to rebuild one engine. Myself, the only think I could not do was bore out the cylinders so I took the engine block to a machine shop. Others I had to repair and replace the transmissions, starters and alternators, replace brakes and other things. Which was fine with me, I could only afford to buy cheap cars I could fix.
My complaint is that this is being done for a company *that is competing with U.S. owned companies* in a sector where we're struggling.
I could buy Nissan ADRs, American Depositary Receipts, on NASDAQ if I had the money. American Depositary Receipts are a method Americans can invest in foreign owned corporations.
However part of the reason that subsidies are needed is the horrendous amount of red tape involved in getting an operating permit.
Nuclear power isn't profitable in China, France, India, or Russia either and they don't have the paperwork and regulations the US does. The only reason nuclear power plants are built in those countries was because the government says what will be built, not a free market.
I put you in the camp of a libertarian, freedom without big government. Thanks ok, I used to be part of the L party myself.
Though a libertarian, I'm a small "l" not big "L" libertarian. I am registered as "No Party Preference". What I find weird is that politically speaking most people think Libertarians, both big and small, were Republicans first. Though I wasn't registered as one for years I voted mostly Democrat. I changed for the 1988 presidential election. At the tyme I was deputized to register voters and was curious about all of the registered political parties in the state, there were more than 40 of them. I checked into different parties and candidates when I came across Ron Paul running as the Libertarian candidate. After reading about the LP and learning of their platform I started supporting them.
'm sure these companies are looking out for their best interests, and probably don't want alternative fuels to compete with their product. This is normal business practices.
It is business as usual but if different people get together to fight for or against something I'd say it was a conspiracy. Not that one has to be bad.
But I'm guessing there isn't some huge, organized, push to quash all such technologies across the whole globe.
Agreed.
As much as a pick on the Libertarians here, I do believe that if there was a miracle fuel out there, someone would develop it and sell it,
Except established businesses and industries get large subsidies and they can use that money for PR to scare people or what have you. Of course some environmentalist do the same, however they depend on donations not government subsidies.
Right now there are some generally good ideas for making our national power scheme better. The problem remains cost, and the fact that what we have right now works good enough for most people.
According to the article "Rebuilding the Power Grid" in MIT's Tech Review "grid-related power outages and problems with power quality reportedly cost the nation $80 billion to $188 billion per year." I's say that was costly too.
I also would like to point out that this "smart" grid would have to be really "smart" to be able to create electricity when there is no wind.
One, with as bad as the grid is in the US is has to be rebuilt anyway. Currently "grid-related power outages and problems with power quality reportedly cost the nation $80 billion to $188 billion per year." The Northeast Blackout of 1965 and again the there one in 2003 as well as others have shown that the nation electrical grid needs to be upgraded and made smart. Next, once we have a smart grid, this link is to an update on Excel Energy's smart grid work, we can use a blend of energy sources. There are biomass, geothermal, solar, tidal, and wind energy sources available.
If we started looking at heating homes with electricity instead of natural gas, we'd be looking at yet another huge increase.
With proper insulation little energy is needed to heat or cool homes. Those who build Off the Grid do it all the tyme.
you're talking about putting these massive obelisks over a surface area larger than Europe. Fact is, this alone would be the largest engineering project in human history, even at 1/40th of the scale. The effects of construction would be felt world-wide.
And where is your science or applied data to support this?
IFR's. There are enough fissionable materials already mined for 100 years of energy production, the waste from IFRs are only a concern for 500 years vs 10,000 for once-thru reactors
I am not opposed to reprocessing waste that has already been created by the nuclear industry. But I am opposed to government subsidies. If businesses want to build and operate plants then they should have to get Wall Street bankers finance them, get private insurance, and deal with the resulting waste themselves. Of course they won't, without government subsidies nuclear power is not profitable.
And to be sure, it's not just the nuclear industry I don't want subsidized. I don't want coal, petroleum, or other sources of energy subsidized either. Farm subsidies, as are others, are bad as well.
Well... the problem with plastics is that they arn't bio degradable, so they are just accumulating in the biosphere.
Plastic is biodegradable. Plastic was originally made from plants. The cellulose in plants is what the plastic cellophane was made from. Kodak [pdf warning] used to make film from it as well.
They will however be weathered down into tiny particles over time, and animals will get them into their systems with yet unknown consequences
Yea, that's one problem with petroleum based plastics. They make up a lot of the garbage in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.
You're insane. Current temp (US zip 75501) is 100.8 with dew point at 73.4. This means sweating will only get you down to 99.8. You need active cooling in some areas, it's a necessity of life.
HAHA. I grew up in Florida which gets as warm and while I like air conditioning I didn't need it. Nor did I need it when I was in Panama. Then again I didn't need much heating when I spent part of winter in Alaska. And yes I was in both places, for three weeks. I was stationed at Fort Greely Alaska for Winter Warfare training and at Fort Sherman, Panama for Jungle Operations training.
Ammonia production(Critical for the human race to keep on eating) takes energy equivilent to one fifth of total world electricity generating capacity
If you're talking about using ammonia for fertilizer, it's not needed. I and others farm or garden without artificial fertilizers. Right now in my garden I am growing asparagus, blueberries, two different types of lettuce, mustard, onions, radish, rhubarb, strawberries, tomatoes, and tomatillos. I started corn but they didn't germinate and I have carrot sprouts that are now ready to plant. And I have not used one ounce of artificial fertilizers added.
Instead I use natural fertilizers, compost and mulch. Before planting I mixed compost into top soil, then after planting I covered the ground with mulch. This fall I'll rip out the dead plants and toss them into a compost bin. Then for next year I'll again mix compost with the top soil in my garden. And I compost everything I can. I toss kitchen scraps in a bin as well as ground bones, cat litter, and the leafs and grass that is raked up. The dirt in my garden is quite healthy, I can take a hand garden trowel and take one scoop of dirt out and find a number of worms which further breaks down organic matter for plant food.
Last year I grew enough tomatoes and tomatillos to make and can a bunch of salsa, sauces, and soups. I had enough lettuce to eat a salad a day for more than a month, actually most of the lettuce in my garden this year sprouted up from the seeds the lettuce spread around last year. While I'd like more space to garden, I started late otherwise I could have gotten a garden plot at one of the community gardens in my area, Minneapolis, MN. And there are a number of them, the local group Gardening Matters has a Google map of community gardens in the great Twin Cities area. Using two or three garden plots in different community gardens I could grow enough to eat or trade with others for what I don't grow for most if not all year. And as I implied above I know how to can and preserve food. I've canned, dehydrated, and smoked food as well as made beer, cheese, and wine.
Pure bull, if your read the EPRI studies EPRI specifically states the cost in building a windmill must not be part of the equation
And where did I say anything about EPRI studies in this thread? There were only two posts above mine and I didn't make either one.
That is why china is going Nuke, plans for over a 100 nuclear power plants to make fiberglass, they also use gas and oil to fire the furnace which this report knowingly ignores.
Slashdot Mirror
"socialist" is pretty much anyone who's to the left of Reagan
Reagan was pretty socialist, for big businesses, the military, and law enforcement, but not for others. He was also friendly to the fossil fuel industries.
Falcon
If you want electric cars to be delivered next year you just have to do one thing -- increase the price of fuel dramatically. Until that happens none of this matters and no efforts short of that to move to electric cars will work.
A Net Zero Fuel Tax has been proposed that would do that. Tax on fuel would be raised while people would get a cut in their income tax. If the average person's fuel cost increased $20 people would get a $20 income tax cut. This would encourage people to demand and buy more fuel efficient vehicles.
Falcon
Not even half a gigabuck will convince Americans to ride bikes. *ducks*
I used to ride my bike 100 to 200 miles a week. That ended when I was hit while riding my bike. While in a coma the docs told my family it would be a miracle if I lived, instead my life has been a living hell. I wish I had died.
Falcon
The state do not have to take the money from the government, they chose to do so. I fact, they don't have to pay many of the taxes to the feds that they do, they choose to. Usually becasue there is something for them in the deal.
If federal taxes weren't so high states could raise their own taxes instead of begging the federal government. And states don't pay taxes, the residents of the state do, and they have to otherwise IRS goon squads will show up with guns.
Falcon
"ut 'everybody' seemed to be the ones either handing out the money or the politically connected people who were lining up to take the money"
as well as many actual experts not getting a single penny.
And there were other experts who opposed the bailouts. Those calling for the bailouts were from the Keynesian school of economics whereas some of those opposed were from the Chicago school of economics originated by Milton Friedman that called for free markets and free trade.
Falcon
TARP may of been needed but if so then strings should have been placed on the funds, such as requiring banks to lend money instead of using it to buy competitors and hoarding the money. Money was given to banks because they were too big to fail, well now they're massive and when they crash again the government won't be able to bail them out.
The bailout also gave bad banks advantages over banks that were properly run and didn't make bad loans. Good banks and borrowers were made to pay for those who made bad loans and those who took out bad loans. In other words the government was choosing winners and losers instead of letting the markets do it.
Falcon
Government was already fund Detroit. While I don't like government subsidies whereas 2 of the Detroit big 3 are bankrupt, Tesla looks to be profitable.
The ideal and proper method for government grants
These are loans not grants and have to be repaid.
Falcon
You don't see Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, etc. building factories in the Bay Area
Toyota builds, or may build, the Prius in California. Honda has a factory in CA as well.
Falcon
f cars like these get the same battery economy that would mean $25k every 5-7 years according to their FAQ.
After 5 year their batteries are supposed to hold 70% of their new charge capacity, so they really don't need to be replaced, unless the owner needs the range.
Falcon
Why is the United States government giving money to Nissan?
Because Nissan has US factories and employees Americans. Giving Nissan money keeps Americans employed.
Falcon
do you think that the people that like to buy $50-60k cars try to eke 200,000 miles out of them, or do they tend to be people that like to have a new car every few years?
If I could afford to buy new cars every few years, I'd still keep a car as long as I could. The only reason I'd buy a new one to replace the old one was because it was costing too much to keep. Instead of spending money on new toys, I'd rather invest the money. Or donate it.
Falcon
You should be able to find a perfectly reliable, reasonably safe used car for just a few grand. It may not be pretty, but it will do fine.
When you buy a used car you're buying someone else's problems more than likely. Now I've bought 5 used cars, and one new car I still have after 9 years. Of those I have had to work on 4, one I had to rebuild one engine. Myself, the only think I could not do was bore out the cylinders so I took the engine block to a machine shop. Others I had to repair and replace the transmissions, starters and alternators, replace brakes and other things. Which was fine with me, I could only afford to buy cheap cars I could fix.
Falcon
My complaint is that this is being done for a company *that is competing with U.S. owned companies* in a sector where we're struggling.
I could buy Nissan ADRs, American Depositary Receipts, on NASDAQ if I had the money. American Depositary Receipts are a method Americans can invest in foreign owned corporations.
Falcon
Only thing you need is electricity (which with most utilities you can get a time of use nighttime rate which is extremely cheap),
Most utilities in CA maybe but not in the US. CA is the only state I know that has different rates for different tymes of the day.
Falcon
should have been a 25K car cost cap.
As with computers early adopters will help finance more affordable cars.
In general I oppose subsidies but at least this money has to be repaid, and some of the money will be used to open a factory employing people.
Falcon
However part of the reason that subsidies are needed is the horrendous amount of red tape involved in getting an operating permit.
Nuclear power isn't profitable in China, France, India, or Russia either and they don't have the paperwork and regulations the US does. The only reason nuclear power plants are built in those countries was because the government says what will be built, not a free market.
Falcon
I put you in the camp of a libertarian, freedom without big government. Thanks ok, I used to be part of the L party myself.
Though a libertarian, I'm a small "l" not big "L" libertarian. I am registered as "No Party Preference". What I find weird is that politically speaking most people think Libertarians, both big and small, were Republicans first. Though I wasn't registered as one for years I voted mostly Democrat. I changed for the 1988 presidential election. At the tyme I was deputized to register voters and was curious about all of the registered political parties in the state, there were more than 40 of them. I checked into different parties and candidates when I came across Ron Paul running as the Libertarian candidate. After reading about the LP and learning of their platform I started supporting them.
Falcon
'm sure these companies are looking out for their best interests, and probably don't want alternative fuels to compete with their product. This is normal business practices.
It is business as usual but if different people get together to fight for or against something I'd say it was a conspiracy. Not that one has to be bad.
But I'm guessing there isn't some huge, organized, push to quash all such technologies across the whole globe.
Agreed.
As much as a pick on the Libertarians here, I do believe that if there was a miracle fuel out there, someone would develop it and sell it,
Except established businesses and industries get large subsidies and they can use that money for PR to scare people or what have you. Of course some environmentalist do the same, however they depend on donations not government subsidies.
Right now there are some generally good ideas for making our national power scheme better. The problem remains cost, and the fact that what we have right now works good enough for most people.
According to the article "Rebuilding the Power Grid" in MIT's Tech Review "grid-related power outages and problems with power quality reportedly cost the nation $80 billion to $188 billion per year." I's say that was costly too.
Falcon
I also would like to point out that this "smart" grid would have to be really "smart" to be able to create electricity when there is no wind.
One, with as bad as the grid is in the US is has to be rebuilt anyway. Currently "grid-related power outages and problems with power quality reportedly cost the nation $80 billion to $188 billion per year." The Northeast Blackout of 1965 and again the there one in 2003 as well as others have shown that the nation electrical grid needs to be upgraded and made smart. Next, once we have a smart grid, this link is to an update on Excel Energy's smart grid work, we can use a blend of energy sources. There are biomass, geothermal, solar, tidal, and wind energy sources available.
Falcon
If we started looking at heating homes with electricity instead of natural gas, we'd be looking at yet another huge increase.
With proper insulation little energy is needed to heat or cool homes. Those who build Off the Grid do it all the tyme.
you're talking about putting these massive obelisks over a surface area larger than Europe. Fact is, this alone would be the largest engineering project in human history, even at 1/40th of the scale. The effects of construction would be felt world-wide.
And where is your science or applied data to support this?
Falcon
IFR's. There are enough fissionable materials already mined for 100 years of energy production, the waste from IFRs are only a concern for 500 years vs 10,000 for once-thru reactors
I am not opposed to reprocessing waste that has already been created by the nuclear industry. But I am opposed to government subsidies. If businesses want to build and operate plants then they should have to get Wall Street bankers finance them, get private insurance, and deal with the resulting waste themselves. Of course they won't, without government subsidies nuclear power is not profitable.
And to be sure, it's not just the nuclear industry I don't want subsidized. I don't want coal, petroleum, or other sources of energy subsidized either. Farm subsidies, as are others, are bad as well.
Falcon
Well... the problem with plastics is that they arn't bio degradable, so they are just accumulating in the biosphere.
Plastic is biodegradable. Plastic was originally made from plants. The cellulose in plants is what the plastic cellophane was made from. Kodak [pdf warning] used to make film from it as well.
They will however be weathered down into tiny particles over time, and animals will get them into their systems with yet unknown consequences
Yea, that's one problem with petroleum based plastics. They make up a lot of the garbage in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.
Falcon
You're insane. Current temp (US zip 75501) is 100.8 with dew point at 73.4. This means sweating will only get you down to 99.8. You need active cooling in some areas, it's a necessity of life.
HAHA. I grew up in Florida which gets as warm and while I like air conditioning I didn't need it. Nor did I need it when I was in Panama. Then again I didn't need much heating when I spent part of winter in Alaska. And yes I was in both places, for three weeks. I was stationed at Fort Greely Alaska for Winter Warfare training and at Fort Sherman, Panama for Jungle Operations training.
Ammonia production(Critical for the human race to keep on eating) takes energy equivilent to one fifth of total world electricity generating capacity
If you're talking about using ammonia for fertilizer, it's not needed. I and others farm or garden without artificial fertilizers. Right now in my garden I am growing asparagus, blueberries, two different types of lettuce, mustard, onions, radish, rhubarb, strawberries, tomatoes, and tomatillos. I started corn but they didn't germinate and I have carrot sprouts that are now ready to plant. And I have not used one ounce of artificial fertilizers added.
Instead I use natural fertilizers, compost and mulch. Before planting I mixed compost into top soil, then after planting I covered the ground with mulch. This fall I'll rip out the dead plants and toss them into a compost bin. Then for next year I'll again mix compost with the top soil in my garden. And I compost everything I can. I toss kitchen scraps in a bin as well as ground bones, cat litter, and the leafs and grass that is raked up. The dirt in my garden is quite healthy, I can take a hand garden trowel and take one scoop of dirt out and find a number of worms which further breaks down organic matter for plant food.
Last year I grew enough tomatoes and tomatillos to make and can a bunch of salsa, sauces, and soups. I had enough lettuce to eat a salad a day for more than a month, actually most of the lettuce in my garden this year sprouted up from the seeds the lettuce spread around last year. While I'd like more space to garden, I started late otherwise I could have gotten a garden plot at one of the community gardens in my area, Minneapolis, MN. And there are a number of them, the local group Gardening Matters has a Google map of community gardens in the great Twin Cities area. Using two or three garden plots in different community gardens I could grow enough to eat or trade with others for what I don't grow for most if not all year. And as I implied above I know how to can and preserve food. I've canned, dehydrated, and smoked food as well as made beer, cheese, and wine.
Falcon
Pure bull, if your read the EPRI studies EPRI specifically states the cost in building a windmill must not be part of the equation
And where did I say anything about EPRI studies in this thread? There were only two posts above mine and I didn't make either one.
That is why china is going Nuke, plans for over a 100 nuclear power plants to make fiberglass, they also use gas and oil to fire the furnace which this report knowingly ignores.
Except China is one of the world's biggest if not the biggest market for wind turbines.
Falcon