But he never said it was justified. Someone posting a followup mistakenly mischaracterized his response as justification (and somehow got modded 5 insightful for it). OP never said the crackdown was justified.
He didn't say it wasn't justified either. As for me mischaracterizing him, I didn't.
Pawlenty has been almost as bad a governor of our state as Bush has been a president.
Though I live in the Twin Cities I have to admit I don't know how well, good or bad, Pawlenty is doing as governor. I love it that Jessy Ventura is running for the Senate though. "Shake things up." I've said on/. before that he were to run for president I'd vote for him.
Honestly I'm an independent but I find myself voting against the republican party consistently because they continue to crusade to take away my rights as a human being and a citizen of this country.
I'm independent too, er in MN No Party Affiliation, however I lean towards liberalism but in today's climate libertarianism is a better description as "liberal" has been maligned. As I see it both Democrats and Republicans want to take away our rights. Democrats what to restrict people economically, tax people to death, and Republicans want to tell people what they can and can not do to their own bodies.
I know it is easy and fun to do but your ignoring a lot of things like this isn't the first time something like this has happened.
Wow, another mind reader. What am I thinking now?
The bottom line is that cops-officials were able to infiltrate these groups and after learning of intended wrong doing, they waited until they started putting plans together and swooped in.
Where's your proof anything illegal was being planned? Oh, that's right, you can read minds and don't need proof.
I can tell you it engenders a strong desire to smash shit belonging to the gassers.
That didn't happen to me or others I knew. While in the US Army my unit would have drills where we'd go into this room gas would be released into. Some of us would try to beat each other in how long we could stay in the room before we had to leave.
Am I 60? Can you add and subtract? If I was born in 1960, which would mean I lived through the '60s and '70s seeing as I'm still alive I'd only be 48, 47 if I haven't had my birthday yet this year. Actually though all I recall is how much people were scared, I recall some of the fear when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated.
You are full of it. Your Yahoo profile shows you to be 44.
Who's full of it, you? I haven't looked at my profile in a long tyme however even if I was 44 that means I was born in 1964 so I would have lived through more than half of the '60s and all of the'70s. However I am older than that.
You're changing whole story there. I said "OS X is not FreeBSD"
Maybe that's the problem. As I see it if someone takes FreBSD but modifies it it's still FreeBSD. Unless the mods are extensive. The different distros of Linux do the same but they're all still Linux.
If you're going to put words into my mouth and try and argue against something I never said, I gotta figure you're trolling me.
I'm not trying to troll, as I say above I don't have a problem calling OS X FreeBSD even if it has been modified some. The two of us, you and I, are using different definitions.
n the beginning, there was UNIX, First Edition.
Yea, I know. Unix was created by Brian W. C. Kernighan & Dennis M. Ritchie, who wrote C to program Unix. They did it while working at ATT Bell Lab.
Sixth Edition was also released outside AT&T as Version 6 UNIX. This was the first version of UNIX to be widely used outside AT&T.
That I didn't know, or recall. I thought the first major release of Unix outside of ATT was Berkeley Software Distribution, BSD, created at UC Berkeley.
Then Bill Gates fell in love with the Macintosh, and decided that Microsoft had to have their own macintosh, and dumped Xenix on a Microsoft spinoff called the Santa Cruz Operation, or SCO.
I may be wrong but I thought SCO, Santa Cruz Operation, was an independent company coming out of the hacker culture in California. Let me check wiki... According to wiki Santa Cruz Operation licensed Xenix from Microsoft in 1983 but Doug Michels founded the company in 1978. Is wiki wrong? Doing a quick search of "Doug Michels" "Santa Cruz Operation" I come up with the same thing. "1979: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. (SCO) is founded by Larry Michels and his son, Doug".
Thanks for the history on Unix, BSD, and OS X. I knew parts of it but not all you have here. I didn't mean to troll, I just didn't know all you seem to, then there's difference in definitions.
From TFA:
Deputies seized a variety of items that they believed were tools of civil disobedience: a gas mask, bolt cutters, axes, slingshots, homemade "caltrops" for disabling buses, even buckets of urine.
"The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said."
you topple a leader, even an evil one, and there are a lot of ramifications. In this case, our leaders felt it was the lesser evil and had to play politics with him for the greater good.
As if there was no one who believed in democracy and human rights perhaps?
As regards the Kurds, during World War I in return for helping the Allies the fight against the Germans and Ottoman Empire the Kurds were promised their own country, homeland, in the Treaty of Sevres. But once the war was over the West reneged on the pledge. The west allowed Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the Father of Turkey to reject the treaty and crush Kurdish uprisings. Kurdistan would have constituted a good chunk of Turkey, and parts of Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Armenia. That same treaty also created Iraq, Syria and Kuwait though. Looking at Iraq today, Iraqi Kurdistan is the most stable part of Iraq. The Ba'athists and Saddam weren't any friendlier to the Marsh Arabs. "Numbering some 250,000 people as recently as 1991, the Marsh Arabs today are believed to number fewer than 40,000 in their ancestral homeland." So much for a stable Iraq under Saddam.
What is all Bush's fault? If you mean Saddam, no it's not all his fault. Actually Reagan is more at fault. If it's not Saddam I have no idea what you mean.
I'm not sure how your "two wrongs don't make a right" got modded insightful, since the OP and GP had a disagreement over magnitude, not sign.
I don't know why either. However I replied with "two wrongs don't make a right" because GP said "the crackdown on civil rights has been tame". Just because it's "tame" does not justify it. Now if GP didn't mean to justify it then he could have said that.
Let's make this a short dance: Call me a "fascist", run away and brag to your comrades about "standing up to a pig."
That's a short dance, I don't have comrades.
Dodo would be more accurate.
Don't you mean you're the dodo? But don't let that stop you.
Try this another way, here you said "We had college-aged, playtime anarchists" howeveronly two of thearticles linked to says anything about anarchists, and that was the sheriff calling them "self-styled anarchists". Nowhere does it say the protesters themselves call themselves anarchists. However at least one of them says "both journalists and lawyers -- in addition to protesters -- have been detained and arrested even though not a single violent or criminal act has occurred."
The/. summary kind of cherry-picks the bits that it mentions. If you read the Star-Tribune article, you'll note that the protesters had buckets of urine at the ready
Who's cherry picking now? If you read the Star-Tribune article you would have read how there was only one bucket of urine, and it was in an apartment without a toilet where a illegal occupant was. And you would have read who that person had nothing to do with the protesters.
in addition to the slingshots, bow and arrows, and gun that police seized
I used to own at least one of each of these as well as a rifle and a blow-gun. Does that mean I was planning something illegal? In that case my dad was a criminal because he gave me the rifle when I was young. And the person who sold me the gun was one too even though we were both in the US Army when he sold it to me.
It's pretty clear that whatever protest these people were planning was going to go beyond peaceful words, unless someone has a better (serious) explanation for the buckets of urine.
It's clear to whom? To you? Maybe you don't need much information as I need to decide guilt.
It also notes that these informants were working on the inside of the protest groups for quite some time, to minimize any doubt that these folks were up to no good.
And those informants were getting paid, but they only got paid if there was an arrest. Let's see, if I became an informant and I knew I would only get paid if the info I gave led to an arrest but there was nothing being planned that was illegal, would I tell the truth and not get paid or would I lie so I would be paid?
So, in other words, the cops were doing their job
No, so either you don't have enough info or you're trolling.
And guess who supported Saddam and the Ba'athists in Iraq in the 1980s?
I think governments retain the right to change their political relationships with countries.
With better information I'd hope a government would changes it's mind if that's what the data suggests. However in the case of Reagan and Bush Sr supporting Saddam, they both kept supporting him even after it came out he was using chemical weapons. Inside Iraq itself. Chemical weapons were used against the Kurds in 1988. At that tyme congress tried to pass a bill that would impose economic sanctions against Iraq for using chemical weapons against the Kurds. Reagan's admin tried to stop those sanctions. Read TFA I linked to above, it might open your eyes.
The catch with it all in the US system, is most of the egregious behaviour falls to the State Governor to ensure the principles of law and justice are adhered to within the state excluding of course the political involvement of the FBI which is of course a federal abuse.
The problem with this is that the state governor is a member of the same political party as the protesters were going to protest against. Before Republican presidential candidate McCain picked his running mate there was even talk about the governor being his running mate. His office is even in the same city.
Deputies seized a variety of items that they believed were tools of civil disobedience: a gas mask, bolt cutters, axes, slingshots, homemade "caltrops" for disabling buses, even buckets of urine.
From another article by the same newspaper, the Star-Tribune:
"The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said."
As for the rest you list, when were they made illegal?
I'm not saying it's right to raid their houses and arrest them just for having it, but I'm having a hard time coming up with legal ways to protest using buckets of urine and equipment for disabling buses.
One bucket of urine in an illegally occupied apartment, the occupant of which had nothing to do with the protest group. And again, when was the other stuff made illegal?
All the police did was do exactly what the NORNC people had planned.
I call bullshit. Where's your evidence the protesters planned anything that would violate others' rights? Information from informants who only got paid if there was an arrest?
Perhaps you should of read more. For instance here's a good read:
"The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said."
allowing people to run around with weapons
Unlike Australia in the USA we have the constitutional right to own and bare firearms.
Slashdot Mirror
But he never said it was justified. Someone posting a followup mistakenly mischaracterized his response as justification (and somehow got modded 5 insightful for it). OP never said the crackdown was justified.
He didn't say it wasn't justified either. As for me mischaracterizing him, I didn't.
Falcon
Pawlenty has been almost as bad a governor of our state as Bush has been a president.
Though I live in the Twin Cities I have to admit I don't know how well, good or bad, Pawlenty is doing as governor. I love it that Jessy Ventura is running for the Senate though. "Shake things up." I've said on /. before that he were to run for president I'd vote for him.
Honestly I'm an independent but I find myself voting against the republican party consistently because they continue to crusade to take away my rights as a human being and a citizen of this country.
I'm independent too, er in MN No Party Affiliation, however I lean towards liberalism but in today's climate libertarianism is a better description as "liberal" has been maligned. As I see it both Democrats and Republicans want to take away our rights. Democrats what to restrict people economically, tax people to death, and Republicans want to tell people what they can and can not do to their own bodies.
Falcon
I know it is easy and fun to do but your ignoring a lot of things like this isn't the first time something like this has happened.
Wow, another mind reader. What am I thinking now?
The bottom line is that cops-officials were able to infiltrate these groups and after learning of intended wrong doing, they waited until they started putting plans together and swooped in.
Where's your proof anything illegal was being planned? Oh, that's right, you can read minds and don't need proof.
Falcon
I can tell you it engenders a strong desire to smash shit belonging to the gassers.
That didn't happen to me or others I knew. While in the US Army my unit would have drills where we'd go into this room gas would be released into. Some of us would try to beat each other in how long we could stay in the room before we had to leave.
Falcon
So that makes you what about 60 years old?
Am I 60? Can you add and subtract? If I was born in 1960, which would mean I lived through the '60s and '70s seeing as I'm still alive I'd only be 48, 47 if I haven't had my birthday yet this year. Actually though all I recall is how much people were scared, I recall some of the fear when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated.
Falcon
You are full of it. Your Yahoo profile shows you to be 44.
Who's full of it, you? I haven't looked at my profile in a long tyme however even if I was 44 that means I was born in 1964 so I would have lived through more than half of the '60s and all of the'70s. However I am older than that.
Falcon
Everyone knows that throwing bottles and breaking windows is a signal to escalate a protest to a riot.
No I don't. Without knowing the broader context I'd think it was vandalism.
Falcon
You're changing whole story there. I said "OS X is not FreeBSD"
Maybe that's the problem. As I see it if someone takes FreBSD but modifies it it's still FreeBSD. Unless the mods are extensive. The different distros of Linux do the same but they're all still Linux.
If you're going to put words into my mouth and try and argue against something I never said, I gotta figure you're trolling me.
I'm not trying to troll, as I say above I don't have a problem calling OS X FreeBSD even if it has been modified some. The two of us, you and I, are using different definitions.
n the beginning, there was UNIX, First Edition.
Yea, I know. Unix was created by Brian W. C. Kernighan & Dennis M. Ritchie, who wrote C to program Unix. They did it while working at ATT Bell Lab.
Sixth Edition was also released outside AT&T as Version 6 UNIX. This was the first version of UNIX to be widely used outside AT&T.
That I didn't know, or recall. I thought the first major release of Unix outside of ATT was Berkeley Software Distribution, BSD, created at UC Berkeley.
Then Bill Gates fell in love with the Macintosh, and decided that Microsoft had to have their own macintosh, and dumped Xenix on a Microsoft spinoff called the Santa Cruz Operation, or SCO.
I may be wrong but I thought SCO, Santa Cruz Operation, was an independent company coming out of the hacker culture in California. Let me check wiki... According to wiki Santa Cruz Operation licensed Xenix from Microsoft in 1983 but Doug Michels founded the company in 1978. Is wiki wrong? Doing a quick search of "Doug Michels" "Santa Cruz Operation" I come up with the same thing. "1979: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. (SCO) is founded by Larry Michels and his son, Doug".
Thanks for the history on Unix, BSD, and OS X. I knew parts of it but not all you have here. I didn't mean to troll, I just didn't know all you seem to, then there's difference in definitions.
Falcon
Deal with the threat before it can strike.
Move to North Korea, don't turn my country into it.
Benjamin Franklin:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Falcon
I have 3 pocket knives, of different sizes, and I almost always carry the smallest one with me.
Falcon
From TFA:
Deputies seized a variety of items that they believed were tools of civil disobedience: a gas mask, bolt cutters, axes, slingshots, homemade "caltrops" for disabling buses, even buckets of urine.
From another article by the same newspaper:
"The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said."
When was all the rest of those items outlawed?
Falcon
you topple a leader, even an evil one, and there are a lot of ramifications. In this case, our leaders felt it was the lesser evil and had to play politics with him for the greater good.
As if there was no one who believed in democracy and human rights perhaps?
As regards the Kurds, during World War I in return for helping the Allies the fight against the Germans and Ottoman Empire the Kurds were promised their own country, homeland, in the Treaty of Sevres. But once the war was over the West reneged on the pledge. The west allowed Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the Father of Turkey to reject the treaty and crush Kurdish uprisings. Kurdistan would have constituted a good chunk of Turkey, and parts of Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Armenia. That same treaty also created Iraq, Syria and Kuwait though. Looking at Iraq today, Iraqi Kurdistan is the most stable part of Iraq. The Ba'athists and Saddam weren't any friendlier to the Marsh Arabs. "Numbering some 250,000 people as recently as 1991, the Marsh Arabs today are believed to number fewer than 40,000 in their ancestral homeland." So much for a stable Iraq under Saddam.
Falcon
What is all Bush's fault? If you mean Saddam, no it's not all his fault. Actually Reagan is more at fault. If it's not Saddam I have no idea what you mean.
Falcon
So in response to that "bogus" threat, they plan on throwing bottles, breaking windows, and other acts of douchebaggery?
Where's your evidence any of this has or will happen?
Falcon
So because they have worse riots other places, it's OK to break windows of innocent local businesses in St. Paul and Seattle?
What windows were broken in St Paul? I live right across the river in Minneapolis and I haven't heard of any broken windows.
What a load of bullshit.
Who's speaking shit?
Falcon
I'm not sure how your "two wrongs don't make a right" got modded insightful, since the OP and GP had a disagreement over magnitude, not sign.
I don't know why either. However I replied with "two wrongs don't make a right" because GP said "the crackdown on civil rights has been tame". Just because it's "tame" does not justify it. Now if GP didn't mean to justify it then he could have said that.
Falcon
Let's make this a short dance: Call me a "fascist", run away and brag to your comrades about "standing up to a pig."
That's a short dance, I don't have comrades.
Dodo would be more accurate.
Don't you mean you're the dodo? But don't let that stop you.
Try this another way, here you said "We had college-aged, playtime anarchists" however only two of the articles linked to says anything about anarchists, and that was the sheriff calling them "self-styled anarchists". Nowhere does it say the protesters themselves call themselves anarchists. However at least one of them says "both journalists and lawyers -- in addition to protesters -- have been detained and arrested even though not a single violent or criminal act has occurred."
So, who's talking shit?
Falcon
The /. summary kind of cherry-picks the bits that it mentions. If you read the Star-Tribune article, you'll note that the protesters had buckets of urine at the ready
Who's cherry picking now? If you read the Star-Tribune article you would have read how there was only one bucket of urine, and it was in an apartment without a toilet where a illegal occupant was. And you would have read who that person had nothing to do with the protesters.
in addition to the slingshots, bow and arrows, and gun that police seized
I used to own at least one of each of these as well as a rifle and a blow-gun. Does that mean I was planning something illegal? In that case my dad was a criminal because he gave me the rifle when I was young. And the person who sold me the gun was one too even though we were both in the US Army when he sold it to me.
It's pretty clear that whatever protest these people were planning was going to go beyond peaceful words, unless someone has a better (serious) explanation for the buckets of urine.
It's clear to whom? To you? Maybe you don't need much information as I need to decide guilt.
It also notes that these informants were working on the inside of the protest groups for quite some time, to minimize any doubt that these folks were up to no good.
And those informants were getting paid, but they only got paid if there was an arrest. Let's see, if I became an informant and I knew I would only get paid if the info I gave led to an arrest but there was nothing being planned that was illegal, would I tell the truth and not get paid or would I lie so I would be paid?
So, in other words, the cops were doing their job
No, so either you don't have enough info or you're trolling.
Falcon
And guess who supported Saddam and the Ba'athists in Iraq in the 1980s?
I think governments retain the right to change their political relationships with countries.
With better information I'd hope a government would changes it's mind if that's what the data suggests. However in the case of Reagan and Bush Sr supporting Saddam, they both kept supporting him even after it came out he was using chemical weapons. Inside Iraq itself. Chemical weapons were used against the Kurds in 1988. At that tyme congress tried to pass a bill that would impose economic sanctions against Iraq for using chemical weapons against the Kurds. Reagan's admin tried to stop those sanctions. Read TFA I linked to above, it might open your eyes.
Falcon
The catch with it all in the US system, is most of the egregious behaviour falls to the State Governor to ensure the principles of law and justice are adhered to within the state excluding of course the political involvement of the FBI which is of course a federal abuse.
The problem with this is that the state governor is a member of the same political party as the protesters were going to protest against. Before Republican presidential candidate McCain picked his running mate there was even talk about the governor being his running mate. His office is even in the same city.
Falcon
From TFA:
Deputies seized a variety of items that they believed were tools of civil disobedience: a gas mask, bolt cutters, axes, slingshots, homemade "caltrops" for disabling buses, even buckets of urine.
From another article by the same newspaper, the Star-Tribune:
"The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said."
As for the rest you list, when were they made illegal?
I'm not saying it's right to raid their houses and arrest them just for having it, but I'm having a hard time coming up with legal ways to protest using buckets of urine and equipment for disabling buses.
One bucket of urine in an illegally occupied apartment, the occupant of which had nothing to do with the protest group. And again, when was the other stuff made illegal?
Falcon
All the police did was do exactly what the NORNC people had planned.
I call bullshit. Where's your evidence the protesters planned anything that would violate others' rights? Information from informants who only got paid if there was an arrest?
Falcon
I think you might be confusing probable cause with reasonable suspicion.
You're right I did. To get the search warrant you need probable cause.
Falcon
Perhaps you should of read more. For instance here's a good read:
"The alleged urine, Nestor maintained, was actually three buckets, two of which contained dirty water used to flush toilets while conserving water. The third was seized from an illegal apartment occupied by someone not connected to the RNC protests. There was no bathroom in the illegal apartment and urine was collected in a bucket, Nestor said."
allowing people to run around with weapons
Unlike Australia in the USA we have the constitutional right to own and bare firearms.
Falcon
To search a residence you need probable cause AND you have to serve the warrant when you go.
No, to search a residence you have to have probable cause or a search warrant.
Falcon