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Bloatware Removal Threatens PC Industry Profits
Anti-Globalism sends along a piece on how a consumer-friendly service is not so good for PC manufacturers. "Before they ship PCs to retailers like Best Buy, computer makers load them up with lots of free software. For $30, Best Buy will get rid of it for you. That simple cleanup service is threatening the precarious economics of the personal computer industry. Software companies pay hundreds of millions of dollars to PC makers like Hewlett-Packard to install their photo tools, financial programs, and other products, usually with some tie-in to a paid service or upgrade. With margins growing thinner than most laptops, this critical revenue can make the difference between profit and loss for the computer makers, industry analysts say."
Thankfully, Linux comes pretty free of bloatware. I guess they don't like that artificially inflated revenues by shoving crapware in people's faces is now heading back towards "realistic revenues by giving people what they actually want"?
I seem to recall a time way back when some company actually installed gator with their pc's bloatware.
Well as a seasoned armchair economist I suggest they make better products.
On the one hand, I think this is a sleazy practice and I'll be happy to see it go.
On the other hand, it's simple enough for someone who knows what they're doing to just reformat the computer with a fresh install of their OS of choice, so the discount you get on your PC for it is pretty nice.
I suspect that if this practice does die out, it'll mean the big guys are on slightly less uneven footing with the little mom & pop PC shops, so I guess that's always a good thing.
The phrase 'Adapt or die' applies to corporations, too. The fact that people will pay $30 to have this crap removed should be telling you something.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The bloatware construes more advertising & product placement (literally, oddly) than a constructive service. This sounds a lot like getting a TiVo or the like in order to scrub commercials out of your favorite shows.
Do that many people really sign up for the full versions of the software that comes on their computers?
Maybe the computers these days are too cheap. If you're not making enough money and this software is pissing people off, just remove the software and raise the price. It's not like most people are going to start building their own computers.
Remove the crappy software, raise the price, and sell the computer as a "premium" edition. People aren't going to stop buying computers.
They don't load them with lots of free software. They load them up with lots of proprietary software, and pretty nasty stuff it is too. Even if you use 'free' to mean 'free of charge, gratis' that is not really accurate here, since the manufacturer is paid to install it on the PC. It's more like proprietary software that has a negative price.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
So why don't the PC makers charge you $30 to remove the crap instead? They probably don't make much more than that from the software makers.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
There is definitely something wrong when laptop or PC manufacturers depend on shoving crap down customers throats to turn a profit. Is it too much of a stretch to think that profit should be a result of quality products and services and differentiation instead of corporate deals that offer little or no advantage to the customer who is actually buying the product from the maker?
alias possession='chmod 666 satan && ls
this industry will fire all marketing dept and use the money on enginnering dept. they just need to do this to gain market.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
The current policy is extortion on non-savvy users. It's like a car dealership filling your new car with trash and charging you to take it out again!
Drop the gimmicks, and get into selling PCs as a business. Get the markup right, make a profit, and compete. If people WANT to buy computers that are $30 cheaper and full of crap, that's their decision. Don't regulate it either way - do what the market can stand.
Hopefully means that maybe Ma/Pa shops, and independants can start building custom PCs again! I can't compete w/ Dell on a (new)build till I hit the 2K+ mark in parts @ pricewatch "wholesale" prices, then I can take 5% max (not counting time). Has a new Alienware or Voodoo hasn't sprung up yet? Though if there is a good botique dealer out there that I don't know about, I'd be interested in looking @ their stuff (for research of course, I build all my own comps).
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
To PC Makers: If your business model's bottom line *depends on* installing bloatware/crapware/trialware please realize that you are the next fatality on the highway of making products that people want. (I do not LOOK FOR devices with pre-installed crapware, I look for quality components (hardware I want to use) and a great and human-voiced service department to backup the fat warranty.
NOTE: After the "Geek Squad" spy camera in the bathroom scandal and bulk copying customer's MP3 and JPG content scandals, (both done by individuals at the "Geek Squad") I do believe my opinion of Best Buy's "Geek Squad" is starting to raise...
On another note, I require car dealers to remove their advertising logos from all locations on the cars I purchase unless they agree to pay me an annual fee of $250 for my mobile advertising space on my new car. It works for NASCAR, it works for me... Talk about something the salesman has never heard before... Consumers need to stand up and justify being right.
I suspect that if this practice does die out, it'll mean the big guys are on slightly less uneven footing with the little mom & pop PC shops, so I guess that's always a good thing.
I think we've also hit on one of the reasons Apple computers cost more than similar machines from Dell, HP, Lenovo, et al: Apple doesn't load down their Macs with a lot of third-party bloatware.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
I won't fly at all unless I'm flying to somewhere that I cannot reach by driving for 10 hours. This isn't because of the airlines; it's because of the federal government's insistence on security theatre. I'm tired of being treated like a potential criminal just because I want to get on an airplane.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
If their business model requires annoying customers and squeezing them for every dollar, then fuck them. They deserve to lose profits and die.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
So there's this thing that keeps on popping up every time I reboot my PC, it reads "Windows Boot Manager", can they get rid of that?
It is abusive for a company to take advantage of their otherwise simple business relationships with their customers.
When a company uses a customer's business relationship to gain even more money by selling that customer's information, by loaded unwanted software (that invariably kills the machine's performance), by inserting ads, or even subscribing them to mailing lists of "their partners," it all amounts to abuse of the business relationship outside of the desired results expected by the customer.
Any time a company annoys a customer, they risk losing that customer. Just because "everyone does it" is no excuse for doing so. Even my preferred vendors do this and while I have learned to live with it by not even powering on the computer in its default configuration in most cases, instead installing the OS from scratch, it is a lot of work that should be needless.
To be clear, the current culture of using or leveraging customers to make additional profits is bad for core business.
I bet the revenue made by BestBuy charging 30$ to remove the bloatware will be more than the revenue made from customers who actually pay for the full versions. If people are looking on the net for ways to remove it, why not do it right here and charge 30 bucks for it?
So they charge $30 to run PC Decrapifyer? http://pcdecrapifier.com/
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Hmmm... Best Buy charges $30 for the cleanup, customers are willing to pay that $30.
Computer companies are currently getting $30 per computer for bloatware.
If they can't include bloatware, that means... prices will rise by $30, but customers won't have to pay Best Buy $30 to remove it...
Where's the downside?
How is this going to affect the eternal "Macs are overpriced" debate if they start selling PC's at their "real" cost without all that crap on them? :)
Because desktop replacement laptops cost a fortune.
Mac's aren't "overpriced". Macs do cost more, but OS X is worth more than Windows Vista (if you don't agree, don't get a Mac, sheesh).
And a $30 change in the cost of a PC isn't going to make much difference.
I think it's a win/win. We got a laptop a lot cheaper than it would normally sell for, Lenovo, I'm sure, made out better, and sucky software makers got screwed.
When I look back at the lightweight Windowmaker/GNUstep environment I prefer, I'd say that the Gnome/KDE gigabytes of junk on most Linux desktops counts as "bloatware".
And there are still things that you can't do with a laptop.
A desktop is always ahead of a laptop when it comes to performance and extendability. Few laptops are able to support 3 monitors (as I use at home) at the same time.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
$30 is about 30 minutes work for an ordinary consultant. For a Geek Squad it may be an hour's work worth, all depending on the salary of that person.
Just do the math and see if it's worth it to provide the service. It may be that it's a bit subsidized, but not much. They probably have automated a lot of the cleaning so it should be a cost that's reasonable for that service.
What they really want is to sell things. Returning customers with problems is a cost, returning customers that buys more devices like an extra mouse is a bonus.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Most pc buyers hate that crapware that is installed on new computers. We all have our preference for apps unless we're completely new to computers, then Linux is for you.
I say stop pushing crapware down our throats to begin with.
They're using their grammar skills there.
I'm conflicted. Shovelware is an awful blight on the face of humanity. On the other hand, it makes computers cheaper, and I don't have to look at it, thanks to linux. So, in effect, it is a tax on the ignorant that goes right into my pocket. I'll be a little sad to see it go.
Xubuntu is a great environment based of XFCE. I use it. It even runs well on QEMU on a simulated Pentium II.
HaikuOS, which was inspired by BeOS, looks quite impressive. The footprint of the full distro is under 100 Meg, and it's very finely architected for responsiveness.
Sorry, the difference between Macs and PCs in price is too great to be just subsidized by this extra software.
I'm sorry, but what part of "one of the reasons" did I leave unclear?
I write sci-fi for metalheads
... to people still stuck with dialup speed access (to the internet or a BBS) or who need to have media mailed to them. Of course the reality today is that those with broadband access no longer need to have everything preloaded. The vendors adopted that model back when it was helpful to consumers. But like most big corporations, they are now stuck on something that no longer makes any sense.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
> delete that crap
> your monitor asplode
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
Welcome to the free market. You can adapt or join the RIAA in it's downward spiral.
That is horrible! Are you sure that was the Air conditioning? Because I think it's just a vent that recirculates air.
I agree w/ laptop situation, and for "US" it's no big deal, but the public, not so much. We have Comca$t and McAfee is decent and free w/ it.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
...Ubuntu has a real price advantage of roughly 110 Euros over a XP 32 bit "system builder" edition (in Germany). Except for games, it does most stuff quite nicely.
C - the footgun of programming languages
What part of the US marketplace doesn't try to exploit non-savvy users? Especially the auto industry.
You buy a car, they want to sell you that extended powertrain warranty, the dealership service contract, the upgraded rims, the alloy-something-or-another...all for "the good of the car".
The computer industry is no different. I used to work for a computer manufacturer ten years ago and even back then, the margins were razor thin on the actual machines. That's why they sold you bundles of software at a ridiculous price. To the buyer, it looked like a bargain because you got all these programs for a fraction of the store cost. To the person selling the machine, that software pack is pure profit, often tied directly into "spiffs" and bonuses. To the manufacturer, not only is it pure profit, but it's nothing to throw in a bunch of slightly outdated software you've negotiated for at a steal.
I beg to differ. Almost no hourly technician in a big box store gets $30. Hell, most of the time you're lucky to be in the teens. They profit from $30 for an hour of work, by a rather large margin actually. -Disclosure: I have worked as a technician for 2 major big box chains.
People are like slinkies; useless but fun to watch when you push them down the stairs
Slow news day FTW... This has been going on circa 1990s. It's not a Windows issue it is a manufacturer issue. Being a former BB tech let me tell you what $30 gets you... Add/Remove programs, remove orphaned shortcuts, clean up msconfig, if you're nice, set virtual mem... If you're using OEM Windows you are not a serious enough user to complain about the extras.
How about one of the first Airbus planes, with, I think, a senior Air France pilot at the controls, that crashed on a fly-by. IIRC, the pilot did have something set wrong, but he wanted to go back into the air, the computer insisted on setting down, and they "compromised." The plane flew in a nose-up attitude into the trees.
Plus, the damn things are squeaky as hell. At least, the ones used by NW that I have been on.
Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
Well, gee. The crapware business model for getting preloaded shitty tool software onto PCs doesn't work well when it can be simply uninstalled (paying $30 for this "service" is a small indicator that you don't have any business touching a keyboard or even staring at it for too long... that's another topic... I digress). Whodathunkit?
I mean, seriously, is that the depths of sinkage we're seeing here? Useless services and crap software are causing their providers to sink down the money pit simply because the user has the option to nuke it off the drive and we're supposed to feel bad about this, I guess?
The business model adopted here is astounding. Provide zero-value items and zero-value services, charge for them, and hope people are stupid enough to take "advantage" of them... then on top, whine when it doesn't work as well as you planned.
Here's a crazy thought. Make a good product or provide a good service. Something people want. Charge a fair price for it. And maybe, just maybe... there will be some (ZOMG!1!!!1) PROFIT!
Don't you love it when industries get upset about how they won't be able to make profit out of thin air anymore? Oh no, we can't charge $20/CD to distribute music now that the internet can do it for next to free! Oh no, we can't make money off of pre-populating people's computers with crap that they don't need or want!
If indeed the market for pre-installed software access goes down the drain, manufacturers will simply raise the price for consumers. Personally, I'm all for paying for what I get.
All that said, I find it hard to believe that BB will find that many customers willing to pay $30 for what they could do themselves when they get home.
When I purchase a new machine, the first thing I do is spend a couple hours scouring it, removing all this crap anyways.
What few things I don't remove, I try out, then end up removing anyways because they end up being demos or need to be paid for to unlock full utility.
As far as I am concerned, it is just another advertising channel and I do my best to snuff those out anyways.
Maybe the companies that spend "Hundreds of millions" would be better advised to spend that money perfecting their products and let the quality speak for itself.
In fact, now that the low cost small laptops are coming, the costs of the OS, and the time of dealing with security has added up. Ppl are figuring it out that Linux works.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I picked out a Dell Vostro laptop for a friend sadly with vista, it worked fine for 30 days. Then the crapware wireless appliation it came installed with shut down the wireless connection untill you ponied up 30$ for the full version. So it basically held the laptop hostage unless you knew to uninstall it and use the Windows networking instead. I'm sure there are plenty of people who come across this and have no idea what to do so they shell out the 30 bucks.
Tinfoil hat? Naa, I long since replaced it with a reinforced titanium alloy.
Certification standards require that all such aircraft be able to withstand 150% of the highest allowable g-limit without structural failure. This is true for both Boeing and Airbus aircraft--and neither manufacturer is going to significantly overbuild their aircraft, because that adds weight. In fact, if tests show the structure is stronger than that, they will remove some to save weight.
And a properly-designed fly-by-wire system doesn't "trump pilot judgment." It puts in g-limits (so you don't rip the wings off) and an alpha limiter (so you don't stall the airplane; incidentally, this makes windshear recovery easier since you can just haul back on the stick). Almost any situation where you would possibly need to overstress the aircraft, or would get into a stall, is likely the result of poor judgment on the pilot's part.
I can think of only two incidents off the top of my head where aircraft crashed due to FBW-related problems... the aforementioned Airbus, and the recent B-2 crash.
I'm and engineer working on a fly-by-wire program, and a private pilot, fwiw.
The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
Software vendors, move along please. Application spam is all used up.
[-- Trust the Monkey --]
Bloatware Removal Threatens uncompetitive PC Industry Profits
There, much better.
It threatens HP, Dell, Lenovo and whoever else makes their margins on the bloatware. For the tens of thousands of honest mom & pop shops, bloatware is a non-event.
The funny thing is a lot of these small-time PC shops usually deliver a better machine at a better price than the big guys, while still making a modest but livable profit. They don't get Microsoft Payola, they don't have much buying power, but they still churn out millions of excellent PCs day after day, with no idiotic coupon-hunting or english-as-a-seventh-language tech support.
So the question is: how the hell can the big guys fail so hard while the nobodies are doing just fine ?
-Billco, Fnarg.com
It says margins are getting as thin as most laptops, but I don't think there's room to worry until they get MacBook Air thin!
Anything and Everything about the Net
Can't we just cut out the middle man? The hardware people sell a simple computer, and the "extra feature" people pay us users to install their crap? :-)
You say your are pleased with yours, but the DV6000 series is plagued with serious problems, related to heat primarily, but can also kill the slot used to hold the wireless card. Some discussion groups claim that as many as 1 in 7 have had serious issues requiring motherboard replacement.
Here is HP's page on the issues.
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&lang=en&docname=c01087277&product=1842155
If yours is under warranty, check your serial number. Either way, installing the latest BIOS update is highly recommended.
While Macs are not immune to quality control issues either, comparing one of their machines to this engineering nightmare isn't terribly fair.
I deeply resent paying the M$ tax for an inferior OS and then find that that this inferior OS can't even be installed in a reasonably "clean" manner b/c the OEM has chosen to contaminate both the original and restore image with crapware. This alone, is sufficient for me to consider wiping the entire image and installing Linux. It's just not worth the time and effort to bother trying to salvage a "minimalist" install of whatever WindoZ happend to be on the HDD...
I'm just justifying my position. In my case, having the capacity also means that when the the temp in my house (no or little AC use) goes over 80 degrees, I still have the 500W power I need when I am cranking UT3 / crysis as high as I can. w/ FAH running in the background (non graphical client now!) Which might be why my house goes over 80 degrees, but I digress...
Really the purchase decision was because I play a fair amount of games, and wanted a PSU that would grow w/ me so I don't have to replace it every two-4 years. The price was right as well. I originally intended SLI, but found that buying 1 great card was better than two good cards usually (via MPC reviews).
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Nothing worse than buying a new PC/Laptop and have either 60 day versions of stuff and/or worse, have crippedware or LE version as they often call it (limited editions).
For me, it's simple, I want either full versions or nothing.
The last laptop I purchased a few weeks ago, I spent a few hours cleaning out the "crapware".
Most people don't even pay attention and then, oops, 60 days later, it don't work!
If you a powerpoint type demo/presentation about software on a laptop, sure, why not?
But you know that 60 day license stuff, it really sucks! like for Norton or MS Office, etc...
Especially Office, because Norton, well, you do need to renew the sucker every year, but Office? People just forget about it.
What they should do, if they had any smarts, instead, is offer a discount when purchasing a full version, at the moment of purchasing the hardware.
So, MS Office, instead of say $400.00 for a version, offer it at $250.00 when buying your laptop or new PC. Give a rebate, a coupon, etc...
It's common sense, because of the following:
Without hardware, who cares about the software? And more to the point, the best time to get someone to spend is when they are getting a new PC, because, often, more than not, it's on credit anyways.
I didn't know, thanks for telling me. But I haven't noticed any heat issues at all to be honest. This laptop has been a lot cooler than the Macbook Pros I've used.
Only got it a few months ago.
I've had continious "logicboard" failures on Macs. Please don't start with quality control and Macs with me, I've had my fair share of issues.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Format, re-install, dual-boot XP/Linux.
I got a Macbook Pro 12 months ago. At the tyme I was thinking of installing Ubuntu on it as a dualboot but after thinking about a while I decided not to. I can do almost everything on it now as I could with Ubuntu. I have X11 installed along with MacPort which allows me to install RPMs and Fink which installs apt-get and .deb packages.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
They COSTS $30 for the company, it's not what they are paid.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
You're right in that I'm willing to sacrifice convenience for freedom, but I don't pay to have bloatware removed. I'm a Mac user.
What, you didn't get any bloatware installed on your Mac? I'm typing this on my Macbook Pro, and while I wouldn't exactly call all of them bloatware there are a number of programs installed I don't want. The first, which is bloatware, is MS Office 2004 for Mac Test Drive. Most of the iApps I don't use either, though I admit many others do. Aperture is there along with GarageBand. I might of tried Aperture, I'm a photographer, but I'm afraid it's trialware. But I don't work with music so GarageBand isn't something I need.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
One of the first things I do with an OEM is uninstall, run removers, get rid of the trash. I get rid of all the free trial software at the start. Norton lasted exactly two days, till it was replaced with something that actually works, does it's job, doesn't cost anything, and isn't loaded down with bloat. Adobe reader same thing, going right through the list of programs that are well known for bloat, replacing them with third party, mostly free, that does a better job with the resources.
There are no computer stores in this small town. So it is either Walmart or mail order. That's a no choice really but I needed a computer, not in three days but that day. Other than that, I too will build my own. As mentioned, it isn't rocket science. When the warranty is gone, so is the hard drive. I will take it out, put another in, to preserve the Vista in case I ever need it again. Other than that, it will see no more use except as a backup OS to have on hand, just in case. As much for spyware, phone homes, and bloat, as anything will be why it will be removed.
Any time a dumb computer user knows that the bloat in the OS on an OEM needs to be removed, it speaks tons for the customary practice of bloating a new computer. If the corporation can' t figure out what needs to be charged to pay for it's componets, then it is not the customers problem. If they can't figure out treating their customers like so much of a commodity makes the customer consider other makers or even making their own, it also speaks for a glimmer of what their future is going to entail.
The major automakers in the states went that route as well. Not caring so much about what the customer wanted and at what price. They went from global #1 in sales downwards and it hasn't gotten better in that direction in 20 some years. They are outsold by Toyota that makes a better product for the price and leaves the customer with a greater satisfaction with the product. You tee your customers off at your own risk. It is when you will pay the price for that treatment, not if. Major media is starting to see that same practice effecting their bottom line.
They're all surprised when they find out it's not rocket science, and they end up with a better pc than they'd get at Best Buy for a fraction of the cost, custom built to their needs and sans bloatware.
Where are these parts coming from? The last tyme I checked prices in all the local stores I knew of, it was cheaper to buy a prebuilt PC than build my own. And the reason I looked in stores in my area is because of something is wrong I want to be able to go to the store and get an exchange quickly, I don't want to wait days if not a week. So ordering from Newegg is out.
I'd rather build my own, but because of today's prices unless I had specific hardware requirements, I'd just buy a prebuilt system.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I wouldn't mind if my pc came with lots of free software. Frankly I think its a shame that most computers today don't come with any useful tools installed (graphical diff program, GnuPG, newsreader, Inkscape, ...) but do come with dozens of crappy little applets and things that usually don't do anything useful (and if they do, nothing that can't be done better using a free alternative), are difficult to uninstall and conflict with practically everything.
If you buy a new Mac there's always a bunch off stuff included in the /Applications folder that isn't part of a standard OS install, typically it includes a trial of Micro$oft Office, Apple's own Office suite, one or two apps from the guys at the omnigroup and a game or two.
Some of them are fully functional but the productivity apps are always of the "give us extra cash" kind.
(wow the captcha is psychic, I've just been hacking on the anaconda code base and my captcha: "anaconda"... freaky)
it's simple enough for someone who knows what they're doing to just reformat the computer with a fresh install of their OS of choice
Ah, that's the key, knowing how to reformat and install an OS. Not many know how, heck when people buy a PC from Best Buy they can have software installed for them right there. I bet other big box chains also will install software for people.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The last tyme I had hardware die on me was a year ago. I only had the PC 10 months when it started acting up. So I took it down to the store for service. They told me the motherboard died and had to be replaced. That was the third PC the mobo had to be replaced on a new PC within a year of buying new. Of 4 PCs I bought new only one didn't have hardware problems in the first year.
Reusing my case and pc P&C 750W psu saves me real $
Before I got that last PC I checked into upgrading the components on the PC I had then, and the new one cost less than upgrading the old one would have cost. The new one came with Linux preinstalled and without the Microsoft tax cost $250. A new mobo and CPU cost just about as much. Now it only came with a 40GB hdd and 256MB RAM, so I bought 1GB of RAM for $100 and added a 750GB hdd as a second drive for $300. Even after buying more RAM and a bigger hdd it was still cheaper than upgrading my old PC.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I think we've also hit on one of the reasons Apple computers cost more than similar machines from Dell, HP, Lenovo, et al:
Have you compared prices of Macs to Windows PC in the last few years? The price of Macs are pretty comparable to the price of PC with comparable configurations. Unfortunately you can't start with a PC and configure a Mac to the same specs though, you have to start with a Mac then configure the PC. I did that before I got the Macbook Pro I'm typing this on. I tried out a few PC OEMs and a Dell with similar specs cost $200 more and an HP cost about the same. I don't recall the other prices but they were about the same or more. Another unfortunate thing is that you won't find a low priced Mac that is expandable. The only Macs that are expandable are the Mac Pros and the XServers. Even their prices are comparable though.
Mac Pro
Price = $3,298.00
Dell Prescision T7400
Price = $4,173 (with $150 instant savings)
The Dell cost almost $1000 more, and the Mac comes with a 10 client OS whereas I don't see a server OS available for the Dell, unless that version of Vista is a server version. Everything else I got as close to being comparable as I could.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
By that stance, every retailer is responsible for every defect in the manufacturer's product, no matter what it may be. If I buy a new microwave from Wal-Mart, and it's nicked? Their fault!
The retailer is responsible, for 30 days. I bought a new DVD player from Best Buy and when it didn't work properly I returned it for a full refund. A couple of days later I got another one and it wouldn't connect to my TV, after I spent half hour or so talking to an employee about it, so I returned that one to Best Buy as well, also for a full refund. Before the 30 days are up it's the retailer's responsibility to return defective or marred items to their distributor or the manufacturer for credit, exchange, or refund.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Why not buy online vs a Box store? Compare Best Buy's customer service (eek) to Newegg's
Best Buy - only a few miles away, Newegg - I have no idea how far away. If I have a problem with an item I bought from Best Buy I can put it in my car and drive there to have them fix it. While I might have to wait a week, I did once when the motherboard in my HP PC died, there were other tymes I was able to take something home the same day fixed.
Now, when I get a new monitor I might buy from Newegg. However it will be a second monitor and I could get away without having it for a few days.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I bought a Thinkpad T61 a year ago, to find out that it was chock full of crapware.
Fortunately the only crapware I got on my new Macbook Pro a year ago was Office 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Ryanair isn't bad to be honest, you just pay for the service you receive. I just flew with them yesterday and for â38 I flew from Cork to EastMidlands.
I only took hand luggage with me, so could check in online and print my boarding card. This meant all ryanair did on the ground for me was check my boarding pass as I got on.
Luggage is a major cost in flying and Ryanair encourages you not to take luggage in the Hold. Really its up to you what you take with you but travelling light isnt too bad the case i had was about twice the size most people go with but it was within the dimensions allowed. Another 15kg in the hold is an additional £12 each way. (plus the delay in checking in and retrieving the bag)
The alternative to flying with ryanair would be â109 for the same journey.
Getting to and from Airports costs the same however much you pay for the ticket
cheapest way is to get a shuttle bus for Cork thats â2.50 and EastMidlands to Nottingham £5 (and they run 24hours a day). It really is up to you how much you pay to get to an airport.
Limited Connections from the Airports well thats true of most Airports. Taxi, hire car, train, and bus or your own transport or friends and family are the usual options. Every airport has a shuttle bus to the nearest main transport links.
Rural Airports, most Airports are rural. The biggest Airport in the UK is Heathrow and thats outside the M25 to get to anywhere from there usually would involve getting into London somehow.
Ryanair do make terrible coffee and tea, however I'm not willing to pay at least double the flight cost to hope to get better coffee (yes its extra).
Ryanair is good at what it does without any unneeded extra services. :)
Just like Linux it works for me. The Stewardesses on Ryanair are cute too
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
An industry based on providing useless bloat to consumers. No wonder Apple and Linux are gaining market share.
About the thinning margins - I have no sympathy at all. They should never have adjusted their business to the point where profit/loss is decided by cramming tonnes of mostly unwanted crap onto peoples PC's.
OS X doesn't get you as good an OS as FreeBSD
OS X is FreeBDS underneath. I have X11 installed. I also have Fink to install Debian packages dpkg and apt-get as well as MacPorts which installs rpm packages.
it gets you a WAY better OS than Vista, and WAY more software than any free UNIX.
Of the unices (unixes), OS X, and Windows you get the most from OS X. You can install Unix and Windows software as well as OS X software. With Unix you get Unix and Windows software but not OS X software. The same with Windows. If that's not enough you can actually run all three OSes on a Mac.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
OS X is not FreeBSD underneath. It is more like Tru64, or 4.4 Lites. The kernel is a fairly typical Mach-based 4BSD single-server implementation, which has considerably higher overhead than the FreeBSD monolithic kernel. It also does not support all the features of FreeBSD: the lack of standard UNIX SCSI tape support, the lack of Jails, and the more complex execution environment, are all things I have run into in the past. FreeBSD is smaller, faster, tighter, and more stable.
I am glad, speaking as someone who was part of the FreeBSD project for a decade, and one of the original 386BSD "patchkit" effort that led to the development of Net/Free/OpenBSD, that OS X has incorporated so much of the code that resulted from that work. I find OS X a much more comfortable environment than Linux... let alone Windows... but that doesn't mean it hasn't got its problems.
how many times have I suffered from weird defects/software issues that many people experience, but Apple completely chooses to ignore there is an issue entirely?
Too many, and I've owned, too many of their machines. So many, that, I think I have had a very good sample of quality of Apple machines in Europe.
Different people have different experiences with both Macs and PCs. I'm typing this on my first new Mac, a Macbook Pro. I've had it a year and in that tyme I've had two problems with it. the first isn't really a problem with the Mac but with software I ordered with it. When I ordered it I also ordered TechTools Pro. The disk I was sent was an old one and wouldn't bootup and run diagnostics. The other problem, I don't know if it's hardware or software but it sometimes does not wakeup when I reopen the lid. Occasionally I have to close and reopen it a number of tymes to get it to wakeup. Perhaps if I take it down to a Genius Bar in an Apple store, there are 3 within 15 to 20 minutes drive from where I am but it hasn't aggravated me enough yet, they may be able to fix it.
I have bought 2 other Macs though both were used when I bought them. The first was a Mac SE30 I bought in 1992. Because it did not have the superdrive capable of reading or writing double sided double density PC floppies I think it was made in 1988. The first problem, other than the inability to expand it, I had with it was in 2000 when the floppy drive died. A few months later I bought a used PowerPC Mac 7300/200. The first and only problem I had with it was when it would not bootup for me in 2006. They both lasted me several years without problems.
I wish I could say the same about PCs but I can't. I've bought 3 new Windows PCs, a factory reconditioned Windows laptop, and one new Linux PC. All three new PCs I had to replace the motherboard within a year. One was a Gateway laptop, another an HP tower and the third's a no name tower with Linux preinstalled. Within a year I also had to replace the hard disk in the Gateway and the HP as well. While the Linux PC ran fine until the motherboard had to be replaced all three Windows PC had to have Windows reinstalled a number of tymes.
Oh, and the new PC I didn't mention, it caused me the least hardware and the most software problems. It's CPU's a DEC Alpha and I couldn't get much software installed on it. Otherwise it's hardware was good. So whereas you've had problems with Macs I've had them with PCs.
When was the last time I saw a Mac outside of my home? Well, uh... A year I think? That's how common they are.
When I get out, which because I'm disabled and don't work isn't much, I see more Windows laptops than Macbook/Pros but I do see them. The last tyme was when I was walking to a store a few blocks from me a week or so ago, someone on a sidewalk in front of a cafe had one.
Mac or PC, Windows or Linux, it really depends on the person. I like Linux, and love open source, and I like Macs, but maybe because of my experiences with it I don't like Windows. It boils down to what hardware and OS will get the job a person needs done.
Oh, btw my favorite computer was the Amiga.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
That there are "unbloated" linux distros doesn't change the point that the popular Linux distros are pretty damn bloated.
So, given that a lot of users seem to like certain kinds of bloat... I think a better name than "bloatware" needs to be applied to the crippled shareware that the original article was about. We used to call this stuff "crippleware". Why not keep using it?
Are you saying Apple is lying? It says it right on that Apple page OS X is "built on Mach 3.0 and FreeBSD 5"
It also does not support all the features of FreeBSD: the lack of standard UNIX SCSI tape support, the lack of Jails, and the more complex execution environment, are all things I have run into in the past. FreeBSD is smaller, faster, tighter, and more stable.
First you say OS X doesn't include all the things FreeBDS does then you say FreeBSD is smaller. It seems to me that if OX S doesn't include everything then it would be lighter, unless Apple includes more that's not in FreeBSD. And of course it does, there's Aqua for instance. So if you leave out the GUI, sure FreeBSD has less but many people want a GUI, you sit them down in front of a command line and they'll be lost.
I find OS X a much more comfortable environment than Linux... let alone Windows... but that doesn't mean it hasn't got its problems.
There is no perfect OS. Everybody has different expectations, needs, and wants. Every OS has problems, including FreeBSD, NetBSD, Standard BSD, and yes OS X.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The funny thing is a lot of these small-time PC shops usually deliver a better machine at a better price than the big guys ...
So the question is: how the hell can the big guys fail so hard while the nobodies are doing just fine ?
No, my question is, are they doing just fine? When my last Windows PC, an HP PC, was in it's death throws I figured I'd upgrade the components so I went price shopping. To get just a mobo and cpu cost about $200, and that was on the low end. While out looking I found a prebuilt PC with Linux preinstalled for $250. A Windows PC right next to it was only $100 more. While they weren't major brands they were the store's brand which is a chain not a mom and pop shop.
Should there be a Law?
I can't help feeling there's some way to connect this with the "windows tax". In both cases, someone is paying for something which he does not or cannot use or benefit from.
Come on guys -- there's got to be a joke hiding in there somewhere...
You buy a car, they want to sell you that extended powertrain warranty, the dealership service contract, the upgraded rims, the alloy-something-or-another...all for "the good of the car".
Years ago, I wanted a right side mirror on a new car. Oh, no -- you could only get it delivered that way as part of the $300 "visibility package", consisting of right side mirror, striping, extra under-dash and door-edge lights, none of which I wanted. I bought the car without the package, then stopped at the parts department when the car was delivered, picked up the mirror for $50 and installed it in five minutes after getting home. What crap!
Prove it. The evidence also shows that the FDR was
tampered with/swapped after the crash.
A person who uses a PC at work and who's employer pays an IT staff to take care of, fix, and install software on PCs doesn't have any business touching a keyboard?
Probably not. Nevertheless, 'tis the way of the world. I suppose if the IT department locks it down enough such that they can only run Word and play Doom, I guess it's OK.
Now if you're done taking everything so literally such that any attempt at humor is a wasted effort...
It is beside the point because IT staffs usually roll out images or hand-load them, buying a PC from a supplier of specific models and installing the software as appropriate.
Perhaps you haven't realized it but OEMs install bloatware on new PCs to keep their costs down not to jack it up.
Actually, I was referring to the bloatware manufacturers offering zero-value items and zero-value services. Nevertheless, I find it difficult to believe that installing bloatware is significantly holding down the cost of PCs, that is, unless there is a significant amount of digital "payola" being passed from hand to hand here. At least not so much so that the cost of a PC loaded with the preloaded software you may have ordered (OS, business application packages, etc.) would be of significantly greater cost than one with that plus a load of bloatware. Now it could very well be that manufacturers of bloatware are giving away this crap in the hopes that someone buys an upgrade, a service, etc., but there is no fiscal reason for an OEM to install it on a machine they are shipping unless they were receiving some sort of monetary incentive to do so (assuming that the bloatware manufacturer is not the computer manufacturer/assembler itself... which is another topic).
Dare I say most people don't know what a good computer is, yeap I said it. Those same people don't know what a good price is. And if they are going to buy a new PC in today's economy they want something cheap, so they look around at prices, and maybe a name they recognize.
I'm getting the feeling that either you don't know what my point is, or you seem quite obstinate about reframing it so that you have something to respond to.
Anyway, since you bothered...
Most people don't know what a good computer is... Hmm... On face I'd agree, because I guess two things are missing, "the criteria", and "the evidence that the criteria is backed with". A "good PC" at least by my definition is one that runs the software you choose to run on it as fast as you need it to run. So pretty much any PC will do as "good" so long as it runs the shit you want to run on it.
But as per your penchant for misinterpretation, the PC itself has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The zero-value services and products are what I was referring to, and whether a user is capable of determining whether the PC is "good" (whatever you or I may think THAT means) being neither here nor there, if they get a piece of shit piece of software on it that is functionally near useless without an upgrade, that they don't need or want, or just plain stinks, THAT is something that I believe "most people" can detect. Now if this stuff was worthwhile... it might be a different story, but it invariably ain't worth the bytes it's taking up.