all of those examples are animals that live in intimate contact with each other. How do arctic flounder genes get into a tomato plant? That's a rather circuitous route.:P
Horizontal transfer does happen, just not from an Arctic fish to tomatoes.
GM crops with increased yield help no matter what the cause is.
Better transportation not GE is needed.
Famine though plant blight is common, and GE is the best way to get rid of it.
Not even, the best way to combat blight is with diversity. When a monoculture is hit by blight or something else the whole crop can be lost. But that's not true when fields are diverse. Take for instance cocoa, ScienceDaily has the article New Cocoa Varieties Needed to Secure World's Chocolate Supply. Scientists at University of Reading are working to "develop new cocoa varieties better suited to likely future climates." Meanwhile Nestle is supplying cocoa farmers with disease resistant cocoa varieties. With 4 main varieties of cocoa people are working to create hybrids.
That says nothing about genetic engineering. The 2 tymes "gene" is even mentioned is when it says they are looking for desired genes in resistant varieties of cassava. All that's needed is crossbreeding and hybrids. No fish genes need to be inserted.
But more importantly, there are many areas of the world where the problem isn't caloric, but nutritional. Golden rice is the poster child for this. Lack of vitamin A leads to blindness and death, so adding it to the rice in places where that is the staple diet can save many.
All that's needed for this is to eat crops that have the needed nutrients. For vitamin A, carrots. Carrots are filled with beta carotene which is a precursor to vitamin A. The NIH has more food sources for vitamin A. The percent of RDA is also included. And again as the BBC article GM 'golden rice' boosts vitamin A says "Not everyone believes golden rice is the best answer to Vitamin A deficiency."
For instance I am afraid Monsanto's Roundup Ready crops are creating superweeds [france24.com].
Pesticide use made that problem(if it turns out to be one), not GE. Without GE other pesticides would be used, and pesticide resistant plants would evolve.
That just goes to show how much you know. Pesticides had nothing to do with the creation of superweeds.
For those crops where they don't they might as well be, they sue you into oblivion if you save your seed for later.
Yes, because you sign a contract promising not to do that before you buy the seeds. They also sue you if you don't pay them - oh no!
They also sue if your non-GM crop is contaminated by another's GM crop. You did not sign a contract but you're sued anyway.
people who were concerned about gene spread got what they demanded
No we didn't. We got more genetic engineering not less.
I think heirloom growers should embrace GMOs.
Not at all, and you admit it yourself. The reason we don't see tomato varieties like Cherokee Purple or German Striped in supermarkets is because they don't all look or taste the same. Large scale growers want their products to have a uniform look and taste. If you want other varieties then coops, farmers markets, and roadside stands have them. Heck, look for orange or yellow tomatoes in chain grocery stores and more than likely you won't find them unless you go to Trader Joe's or Whole Foods. Looking in gardens though will increase your odds.
Finally, there is no need for GE crops. All they do is enrich the pockets of big agribusinesses.
On the other hand, one of the big dangers of run-off from agriculture is eutrophication of nearby lakes, rivers, tributaries, etc, caused by all the fertilizer sprayed on crops.
Except as GM crops expand, the Deadzone in the Gulf of Mexico is also growing.
The classic Free Markets ideology as practiced by Americans is to privatize the profit and socialize the costs and externalities. It's a form of welfare for the ruling class and their wealthy sponsors.
Free markets do not socialize externalities. Just because the current mixed systems do, which are not free markets, that does not mean free markets do.
GM crops are also a poison pill of sorts for farmers who are not Monsanto customers. Monsanto 'discovers' their GM crop on an unlicensed customer's fields next door to their customer then sues the farmer next door for intellectual property violations. GM in this case is being used as a trojan horse for all kinds of other nefarious (albeit legal) economic activity.
And in a free market Monsanto would not be allowed to get away with it.
He seems to be wrong. The NIH has no direct responsibility or authority over foodstuffs. They do regulate gene therapy for humans, but that's completely different thing.
Gene therapy is one area I fully support genetic engineering research, and application.
The FDA considers GM foods basically safe, and looks over safety tests performed by the company selling the product to ensure they have not overlooked potential dangers. In cases that new proteins or pesticide resistance the burden of proof is much higher then swapping genes already in foodstuff.
Is that the same FDA that approved drugs that were later found to be bad?
I disagree with him on the things that fall outside his expertise of biology and ecology.
I don't see what his qualifications or expertize is on the Google or on the Amazon page. His wiki entry has some info but it doesn't say what those qualifications are either. It says he studied design at an art institute but doesn't say what degree he got if any.
Having said that I like that he worked with The Whole Earth Catalog and started the WELL (which I wanted to join). I wonder what he thinks of (Sittin' On) The Dock of the Bay, I love that song.
For instance, I'm not as convinced nuclear power is our only hope.
I'm a long way from being convinced nuclear power is any hope for energy, instead I believe the oppose and believe that the money used in it's research can better be used in other research. As it is the nuclear power industry is Hooked on Subsidies. The SciAm article A Solar Grand Plan says "A massive switch from coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear power plants to solar power plants could supply 69 percent of the U.S.'s electricity and 35 percent of its total energy by 2050." And the NREL's Wind Energy Resource Atlas of the United States details the wind potential of different regions of the US. One analysis I read of it concluded the Rockies have enough potential to supply the 48 contiguous states with electricity.
The video you link to brought up one problem with alternative energy, the lack of a reliable baseload. However geothermal energy can supply some. And until storage technology is developed that is large scale, natural gas fired and nuclear power plants can be kept online. However which ever way it goes I want to see an end to subsidies whether it's the billion dollars alternative energy gets or the billions more coal, natural gas, nuclear power, and petroleum get. And that includes external costs such as pollution.
Falcon
Oh, on the FDA, I want it abolished. The NIH, which I'd like privatized, can take over some of what the FDA does. As for drug approvals, I believe people should be able to take whatever drug they want without a prescription.
"Green" campaigns against GM technology that is truely patent and licensing free, created by non-profits for the good of poor nations, is causing people to die of starvation and malnutrition.
Citation needed. You did include a quote from a doctor of plant pathology but does he consider non-GM answers? In a previous post I said how the problem of people starving isn't from lack of food but because of other reasons. For instance Zimbabwe used to to the breadbasket of southern Africa but since Robert Mugabe came to power it has been a basket case. Politics reduced Zimbabwe from a food exporter to a nation that needs food donations.
It is a good sign that the people who understand GM techniques are the least scared of GM food.
I disagree. Though no expert I understand GM techniques, and because I do I am scared of them. For instance I am afraid Monsanto's Roundup Ready crops are creating superweeds. I am afraid allergins will be introduced into food that does not contain it now. And I am concerned about the unforeseen. Asbestos used to be called the miracle mineral because of its acid and heat resistance. Well now we know how deadly it is.
I am not calling for an end to genetic engineering, I applaud it's medical potential. What I am calling for is more thorough research being done before it's released into the wild, which is not being done.
I used to think the same, until I learned otherwise. Hoizontal gene transfer, genes flowing from one species to an unrelated one, does happen. If you, generic not you specifically, look at the human gnome you will find lots of genes from bacterias and such.
The idea of non-"GM" food as natural and traditional is just wrong.
No, this is wrong. I garden and 3 years ago for the first tyme I allowed loose leaf lettuce and mustard I planted to bolt, go to seed. I have not had to plant more of either one in the two years since, they both naturally sprout from seeds that were produced the previous year. This is a bit more wild than what I normally do, intentionally save seeds.
"Heirloom" non-engineered produce is hard to come by unless you grow it yourself.
Again this is wrong. Visiting many garden centers or browsing seed catalogs you can find lots of heirloom varieties.
there aren't a whole lot of variants of "corn" or "wheat" or "soy" being planted
I don't personally know about wheat and soya, but I love gardening and I've grown Black Aztec Corn, which is black, and Inca Rainbow corn, which is rainbow coloured. Over the years the only "regular" corn varieties I've grown are sweet white varieties. Seed Savers Exchange has more varieties.
New GE plants are tested by the FDA, the NIH, and the EPA
That's what you think, but it in not true. As the NIH's Medline says "Genetically engineered foods are generally regarded as safe. There has been no adequate testing, however, to ensure complete safety. There are no reports of illness or injury due to genetically engineered foods. Each new genetically engineered food will have to be judged individually." Bold added by me.
There have been toxic chemicals found in food sold that have been "traditionally" engineered, but none that have been "on purpose" engineered in in what has become known as GE.
Really? So soya with brazil nut genes, which can cause serious allergy reactions including death, has not been found to be allergic as well? And the military hasn't spend a lot of money developing biological agents, such as anthrax?
GM food is safer then it's counterparts. I'll take the GM food, please..
Citation needed for the safety. As for taking it, go ahead and keep it. Just don't force it on me.
I recommend the Whole Earth Discipline. Where he talks about his expertise (he's an ecologist/biologist by training) he's spot on. I don't agree with him on all the topics included in the book
If his expertise is "spot on" why don't you agree with everything he says? After-all he's an expert. Because the rest doesn't agree with what you want?
Thanks. One place I was interested in is the Loft. However I went there years ago and it seems more for classes than simple writers meetings. In Florida I was a member of 3 writers groups, at the college I attended, at a Barnes and Noble, and at a public library. Each one was run differently but at all of them we could just talk or share what we were working on. I also attended meetings of other groups such as the local kingdom of the Society of Creative Anachronism, SCA. Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to the Renfest.
No we haven't been doing this, inserting foreign genes into species that doesn't naturally carry it.
Please read at least the very basics about that which you speak before ye spake it.
Physician heel thy self. "Classical plant breeding uses deliberate interbreeding (crossing) of closely or distantly related individuals to produce new crop varieties or lines with desirable properties." ie related plants were cross bred and not fish genes inserted into tomatoes.
Most people do know something about it.
No, most people do not. Go to China and ask. Go to Africa and ask.
The people doing the work know a lot about it...it seems to me that it is you who is ignorant.
Ah, that's why they have to run experiments, because they know everything. If they do it all then why the experiments. Experiments are run because they do not know everything, not even a small fraction.
Genes code for proteins. Genes don't care what organism they came from.
Genes do more than that. And they do care, well not genes themselves but people, if there are adverse reactions. There is also the concern of binary reactions between genes. Much like two chemicals can combine to form binary chemical weapons or binary explosives. Now take the chemical soup modern science has created with thousands of man made chemicals and the possibility for millions of genes.
I'd rather take the careful road, and in this case, that's GM.
GE/GM foods are guaranteed to have known mutations, in addition to potential random mutations, but they're heavily scrutinized by manufacturers and regulatory agencies.
Where are all these regulations of genetic engineering? Let's try Plant Genetic Engineering and Regulation in the United States [pdf]. It says "the United States chose to adapt existing legislation to accommodate new products derived from rDNA technology. An early study conducted by the National Research Council (NRC) for the National Academies of Science concluded that transgenic methods of plant breeding pose no new categories of risk (NRC 1989)." Subsequent studies reiterated that. So little new regulations.
No, the battle is GM vs non-GM. I will not buy GM food. Nor will many other people. How about this, have GM food labeled then see how many people buy it. Companies like Monsanto fight attempts to require labeling.
The push for profit has given us radical increase in agricultural yield over the past 80 years
One, for most of those 80 years foreign genes were not inserted into plants. Two, more than one thing accounts for increases in yield, And three, a lack of food is not the problem. The problems are political and armed conflicts. With neoliberal policies yields only went up modestly. Here's a story about millions of metric tons of wheat rotting away in a warehouse in India. Another one says how the supply chain is messed up, "Industry experts estimate more than 30% of all fresh produce is lost or spoils before it reaches the market." Many more stories like these can be found. How about in Africa? In the Democratic Republic of Congo looting of crops by armed groups and general insecurity has undermined farming. Or take Zimbabwe. Before Robert Mugabe came to power the country was a bread basket for southern Africa, ie a net food exporter. Food was the one of the biggest if not the biggest cash earner for Zimbabwe. After he came to power he forced white farmers off the farms then gave the land to his cronies, who do not know how to farm. Now Zimbabwe does not grow enough food for its own population.
Quite simply GM will not "fix" the problem of too little food. There's plenty of food so genetic engineering is not needed. To go further Infrastructure: The new gold explains how infrastructure is part of the problem. It blames the rotting food in India on the "country's creaky infrastructure".
Herbicide resistance can lead to less herbicide use because you can then apply one herbicide that kills everything but the one thing that is resistant rather than having to apply multiple chemicals depending on what weed you need to eradicate.
The same could be said for pesticide resistance, perhaps you can apply stronger chemicals but less often which may be safer than having to apply weaker stuff more often.
How about instead of using fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides that are natural gas or petroleum based use organic methods. Instead of planting the same crop year after year rotate crops. Instead of monocultures inter-plant different species, companion planting?
The problem isn't genetic modification--we've been doing that since Mendel, the only difference is the techniques.
No we haven't been doing this, inserting foreign genes into species that doesn't naturally carry it. However it does occasionally happen in nature, Horizontal gene transfer.
I'm surprised that there's so much FUD in this thread aimed at GM, though. I thought/. was supposed to be mostly pro-science nerds that don't confuse evil corporations with anti-science hippie propaganda.:-)
There's a big difference between FUD and running a world wide experiment most people know nothing about. Not even the scientists in the field know everything.
Slashdot had an article after the Iraqi invasion where Paul Bremer, who was appointed as the administrator of Iraq's Coalition Provisional Authority, made a law like this: Iraq law Requires Seed Licenses.
Well, the seed they sell you is sterile. Terminator crops will not reproduce so you can't save seed from last year for this year's planting.
Seed saving has been practiced by farmers for thousands of years.
Monsanto tout things like their "Golden Rice" (such a dream name, that one) as helping the poor third world. It's been engineered to have high levels of Vitamin D.
FYI vitamin A not vitamin D. At first look it may sound good, engineering rice to contain a nutrient needed for eyesight, but in fact those who need the vitamin need to eat other foods such as some of those listed here.
p>How very bizarre... I live in Minneapolis as well, in uptown in fact
Then you must know about the shops on Hennepin, Lyndale, Nicolet Mall, Lake St, and Lagoon. You don't know about all the shops on these streets? Or on Excelsior in St Louis Park? Well perhaps driving around blind you miss them, me I ride my bike in the area, it the area I live in too. Heck, you don't know Muddy Waters? Or Penn Cycle? Loon Grocery? Those are just the ones my bad memory can come up with right now. Oh and the Wedge, of which I am a member.
You go downtown and you hardly can find any independent places, it's chains everywhere, and lest we not forget how awful the suburbs are!
I don't go downtown much but when I do more than likely I'm going to Natcam, National Camera Exchange. With 6 stores in the Twin Cities it's huge. NOT!!!
I really don't know anything about your business statistics...maybe they're a sign that Europe is following in our footsteps, which is sad, but what I'm talking about is only what I see when I walk down the street right now.
They're not my statistics they're the European Commission's or someone else's. As for walking I don't walk much, I ride my bike more.
Instead you've got an offie on every corner, with chippy or a kebab shop next to it, bakeries, grocers, butchers, you name it... We just don't get that here. Hardly saying it's perfect, but it's one of the biggest motivators for me to want leave this awful city and move over there!
While we don't have as many shops such as bakeries here as Germany had when I was there we do have them. Actually that is something I loved about it there. There are 2 big motivators for to leave, well three, here. One, it's too far away from either the Atlantic or Pacific. Two, the growing season is too short, at least without a greenhouse. And the third reason is I had to leave close friends when I moved up here. Normally I don't have trouble meeting new people but here I have. One person I did meet, born and raised in MN, told me that instead of the motto saying "Minnesota Nice" it should be "Minnesota Ice". Maybe it's just where I've been but I've had bad luck meeting people here, which is why I now spend hours online daily and don't get out much any more.
They can do more, one I had left me more than $1000 in debt, and that was more than 15 years ago.
I do not even have any live in girlfriends. I could do that at one time but now I've been a bachelor too long.
I never had a live-in girlfriend though I'm not opposed to it. While in some ways I could handle having any roommate in other ways I think it will be much harder. Because of my disability I've been living in isolation and do little socializing. However I'm hoping to change that, in the next few weeks I hope to be starting a back to work program.
There's a key difference between the USA de Tocqueville wrote about and the USA that Marx and Engels wrote about: The Industrial Revolution had begun to concentrate ownership of economic output in the hands of those who had the means of owning factories.
Yea and slavery was abolished. However abolitionists were fighting to stop slavery even before de Tocqueville came to the USA. In his original drafts of the Declaration of Independence Thomas Jefferson wrote of equal rights for everyone including Blacks and Women in the drafts. These were only removed because pro-slavery and paternalistic Founding Fathers would not sign the declaration unless they were removed. Carl Marx though published his The Communist Manifesto on 21 February 1848, before slavery was ended in the US. That also makes it 20 years after "Democracy in America" (DiA) was published. That's not that much tyme. More tyme went by between Independence was declared and DiA was published.
What's less understandable is that because my great-great-grandfather was a smart guy, I got a loan-free college education when most of my peers did not, so my income is effectively a good 10-15% higher than theirs.
It's also less understood that whereas back when only the wealthy could afford college most anyone in the US can go to college now. You used yourself as an example of getting a college education, well so will I. Neither of my parents were wealthy. My dad retired from the US Air Force as an enlisted person not an officer. My mom attended a technical school while working and raising my sisters and I to become a lab technician in a hospital.
However my mom raised my sisters and I to believe we could do whatever we wanted as long as we worked for it. After high school graduation my older sister and I enlisted in the US Army and after we were discharged we both went to college. My younger sister skipped the military and started college right after high school graduation. She paid for it with scholarships and working. My older sister is now a nurse and my younger sister earned her Masters, passed the test to become a CPA or Certified Public Accountant and now runs her own accounting business. Not only that but she also owns her own home and rental property. She owns the building my apartment is in.
As for me, while in college my major was Computer Engineering. However as a student I was hit in an accident and suffered a disability which derailed my educational and professional goals. Among other things my memory is bad and I have to use compensating techniques because of it. For instance I use both a paper based daily planner, in which I try to make lots of notes, and the software calendar based in my cellphone. I almost always carry both with me and when I make an appointment I'll enter it into both the planner and the cellphone calendar right then and there, if I don't I won't recall to do so later. I still have hopes and continue to work to again become independent.
Slashdot Mirror
all of those examples are animals that live in intimate contact with each other. How do arctic flounder genes get into a tomato plant? That's a rather circuitous route. :P
Horizontal transfer does happen, just not from an Arctic fish to tomatoes.
Falcon
GM crops with increased yield help no matter what the cause is.
Better transportation not GE is needed.
Famine though plant blight is common, and GE is the best way to get rid of it.
Not even, the best way to combat blight is with diversity. When a monoculture is hit by blight or something else the whole crop can be lost. But that's not true when fields are diverse. Take for instance cocoa, ScienceDaily has the article New Cocoa Varieties Needed to Secure World's Chocolate Supply. Scientists at University of Reading are working to "develop new cocoa varieties better suited to likely future climates." Meanwhile Nestle is supplying cocoa farmers with disease resistant cocoa varieties. With 4 main varieties of cocoa people are working to create hybrids.
http://www.africanagricultureblog.com/2010/01/gates-foundation-to-fund-cassava.html
That says nothing about genetic engineering. The 2 tymes "gene" is even mentioned is when it says they are looking for desired genes in resistant varieties of cassava. All that's needed is crossbreeding and hybrids. No fish genes need to be inserted.
But more importantly, there are many areas of the world where the problem isn't caloric, but nutritional. Golden rice is the poster child for this. Lack of vitamin A leads to blindness and death, so adding it to the rice in places where that is the staple diet can save many.
All that's needed for this is to eat crops that have the needed nutrients. For vitamin A, carrots. Carrots are filled with beta carotene which is a precursor to vitamin A. The NIH has more food sources for vitamin A. The percent of RDA is also included. And again as the BBC article GM 'golden rice' boosts vitamin A says "Not everyone believes golden rice is the best answer to Vitamin A deficiency."
For instance I am afraid Monsanto's Roundup Ready crops are creating superweeds [france24.com].
Pesticide use made that problem(if it turns out to be one), not GE. Without GE other pesticides would be used, and pesticide resistant plants would evolve.
That just goes to show how much you know. Pesticides had nothing to do with the creation of superweeds.
Bye
Falcon
For those crops where they don't they might as well be, they sue you into oblivion if you save your seed for later. Yes, because you sign a contract promising not to do that before you buy the seeds. They also sue you if you don't pay them - oh no!
They also sue if your non-GM crop is contaminated by another's GM crop. You did not sign a contract but you're sued anyway.
Falcon
You do realize that this has been going on for over a century, right? Farmers using hybrid seed, so they just buy new seed year after year.
Some do but many more save seeds.
people who were concerned about gene spread got what they demanded
No we didn't. We got more genetic engineering not less.
I think heirloom growers should embrace GMOs.
Not at all, and you admit it yourself. The reason we don't see tomato varieties like Cherokee Purple or German Striped in supermarkets is because they don't all look or taste the same. Large scale growers want their products to have a uniform look and taste. If you want other varieties then coops, farmers markets, and roadside stands have them. Heck, look for orange or yellow tomatoes in chain grocery stores and more than likely you won't find them unless you go to Trader Joe's or Whole Foods. Looking in gardens though will increase your odds.
Finally, there is no need for GE crops. All they do is enrich the pockets of big agribusinesses.
Falcon
On the other hand, one of the big dangers of run-off from agriculture is eutrophication of nearby lakes, rivers, tributaries, etc, caused by all the fertilizer sprayed on crops.
Except as GM crops expand, the Deadzone in the Gulf of Mexico is also growing.
Falcon
The classic Free Markets ideology as practiced by Americans is to privatize the profit and socialize the costs and externalities. It's a form of welfare for the ruling class and their wealthy sponsors.
Free markets do not socialize externalities. Just because the current mixed systems do, which are not free markets, that does not mean free markets do.
GM crops are also a poison pill of sorts for farmers who are not Monsanto customers. Monsanto 'discovers' their GM crop on an unlicensed customer's fields next door to their customer then sues the farmer next door for intellectual property violations. GM in this case is being used as a trojan horse for all kinds of other nefarious (albeit legal) economic activity.
And in a free market Monsanto would not be allowed to get away with it.
Falcon
New GE plants are tested by the FDA, the NIH, and the EPA.
I got this from "Whole Earth Discipline" by Stewart Brand, page 127. http://books.google.com/books?ct=result&id=1tTtAAAAMAAJ&dq=stewart+brand+whole+earth&q=national+institutes
He seems to be wrong. The NIH has no direct responsibility or authority over foodstuffs. They do regulate gene therapy for humans, but that's completely different thing.
Gene therapy is one area I fully support genetic engineering research, and application.
Here's the real story:
http://www.fda.gov/food/biotechnology/default.htm
The FDA considers GM foods basically safe, and looks over safety tests performed by the company selling the product to ensure they have not overlooked potential dangers. In cases that new proteins or pesticide resistance the burden of proof is much higher then swapping genes already in foodstuff.
Is that the same FDA that approved drugs that were later found to be bad?
I disagree with him on the things that fall outside his expertise of biology and ecology.
I don't see what his qualifications or expertize is on the Google or on the Amazon page. His wiki entry has some info but it doesn't say what those qualifications are either. It says he studied design at an art institute but doesn't say what degree he got if any.
Having said that I like that he worked with The Whole Earth Catalog and started the WELL (which I wanted to join). I wonder what he thinks of (Sittin' On) The Dock of the Bay, I love that song.
For instance, I'm not as convinced nuclear power is our only hope.
I'm a long way from being convinced nuclear power is any hope for energy, instead I believe the oppose and believe that the money used in it's research can better be used in other research. As it is the nuclear power industry is Hooked on Subsidies. The SciAm article A Solar Grand Plan says "A massive switch from coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear power plants to solar power plants could supply 69 percent of the U.S.'s electricity and 35 percent of its total energy by 2050." And the NREL's Wind Energy Resource Atlas of the United States details the wind potential of different regions of the US. One analysis I read of it concluded the Rockies have enough potential to supply the 48 contiguous states with electricity.
The video you link to brought up one problem with alternative energy, the lack of a reliable baseload. However geothermal energy can supply some. And until storage technology is developed that is large scale, natural gas fired and nuclear power plants can be kept online. However which ever way it goes I want to see an end to subsidies whether it's the billion dollars alternative energy gets or the billions more coal, natural gas, nuclear power, and petroleum get. And that includes external costs such as pollution.
Falcon
Oh, on the FDA, I want it abolished. The NIH, which I'd like privatized, can take over some of what the FDA does. As for drug approvals, I believe people should be able to take whatever drug they want without a prescription.
Interesting how the farmers are not the ones against Monsanto.
Except there are many farmers who oppose Monsanto, or visa versa.
"Green" campaigns against GM technology that is truely patent and licensing free, created by non-profits for the good of poor nations, is causing people to die of starvation and malnutrition.
Citation needed. You did include a quote from a doctor of plant pathology but does he consider non-GM answers? In a previous post I said how the problem of people starving isn't from lack of food but because of other reasons. For instance Zimbabwe used to to the breadbasket of southern Africa but since Robert Mugabe came to power it has been a basket case. Politics reduced Zimbabwe from a food exporter to a nation that needs food donations.
It is a good sign that the people who understand GM techniques are the least scared of GM food.
I disagree. Though no expert I understand GM techniques, and because I do I am scared of them. For instance I am afraid Monsanto's Roundup Ready crops are creating superweeds. I am afraid allergins will be introduced into food that does not contain it now. And I am concerned about the unforeseen. Asbestos used to be called the miracle mineral because of its acid and heat resistance. Well now we know how deadly it is.
I am not calling for an end to genetic engineering, I applaud it's medical potential. What I am calling for is more thorough research being done before it's released into the wild, which is not being done.
Falcon
There is no way in nature, without the intervention of human beings, that an antifreeze gene from an arctic flounder can find its way into the germline of an tomato plant
I used to think the same, until I learned otherwise. Hoizontal gene transfer, genes flowing from one species to an unrelated one, does happen. If you, generic not you specifically, look at the human gnome you will find lots of genes from bacterias and such.
Falcon
The idea of non-"GM" food as natural and traditional is just wrong.
No, this is wrong. I garden and 3 years ago for the first tyme I allowed loose leaf lettuce and mustard I planted to bolt, go to seed. I have not had to plant more of either one in the two years since, they both naturally sprout from seeds that were produced the previous year. This is a bit more wild than what I normally do, intentionally save seeds.
"Heirloom" non-engineered produce is hard to come by unless you grow it yourself.
Again this is wrong. Visiting many garden centers or browsing seed catalogs you can find lots of heirloom varieties.
Falcon
there aren't a whole lot of variants of "corn" or "wheat" or "soy" being planted
I don't personally know about wheat and soya, but I love gardening and I've grown Black Aztec Corn, which is black, and Inca Rainbow corn, which is rainbow coloured. Over the years the only "regular" corn varieties I've grown are sweet white varieties. Seed Savers Exchange has more varieties.
Falcon
New GE plants are tested by the FDA, the NIH, and the EPA
That's what you think, but it in not true. As the NIH's Medline says "Genetically engineered foods are generally regarded as safe. There has been no adequate testing, however, to ensure complete safety. There are no reports of illness or injury due to genetically engineered foods. Each new genetically engineered food will have to be judged individually." Bold added by me.
There have been toxic chemicals found in food sold that have been "traditionally" engineered, but none that have been "on purpose" engineered in in what has become known as GE.
Really? So soya with brazil nut genes, which can cause serious allergy reactions including death, has not been found to be allergic as well? And the military hasn't spend a lot of money developing biological agents, such as anthrax?
GM food is safer then it's counterparts. I'll take the GM food, please..
Citation needed for the safety. As for taking it, go ahead and keep it. Just don't force it on me.
I recommend the Whole Earth Discipline. Where he talks about his expertise (he's an ecologist/biologist by training) he's spot on. I don't agree with him on all the topics included in the book
If his expertise is "spot on" why don't you agree with everything he says? After-all he's an expert. Because the rest doesn't agree with what you want?
Falcon
meetup.com
Thanks. One place I was interested in is the Loft. However I went there years ago and it seems more for classes than simple writers meetings. In Florida I was a member of 3 writers groups, at the college I attended, at a Barnes and Noble, and at a public library. Each one was run differently but at all of them we could just talk or share what we were working on. I also attended meetings of other groups such as the local kingdom of the Society of Creative Anachronism, SCA. Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to the Renfest.
Falcon
No we haven't been doing this, inserting foreign genes into species that doesn't naturally carry it.
Please read at least the very basics about that which you speak before ye spake it.
Physician heel thy self. "Classical plant breeding uses deliberate interbreeding (crossing) of closely or distantly related individuals to produce new crop varieties or lines with desirable properties." ie related plants were cross bred and not fish genes inserted into tomatoes.
Most people do know something about it.
No, most people do not. Go to China and ask. Go to Africa and ask.
The people doing the work know a lot about it...it seems to me that it is you who is ignorant.
Ah, that's why they have to run experiments, because they know everything. If they do it all then why the experiments. Experiments are run because they do not know everything, not even a small fraction.
Educate thyself about Norman Borlaug
When did I say anything about him? Or is this FUD and misdirection? Bye.
Falcon
Genes code for proteins. Genes don't care what organism they came from.
Genes do more than that. And they do care, well not genes themselves but people, if there are adverse reactions. There is also the concern of binary reactions between genes. Much like two chemicals can combine to form binary chemical weapons or binary explosives. Now take the chemical soup modern science has created with thousands of man made chemicals and the possibility for millions of genes.
I'd rather take the careful road, and in this case, that's GM.
HAHA!!! GE is not safe.
Falcon
GE/GM foods are guaranteed to have known mutations, in addition to potential random mutations, but they're heavily scrutinized by manufacturers and regulatory agencies.
Where are all these regulations of genetic engineering? Let's try Plant Genetic Engineering and Regulation in the United States [pdf]. It says "the United States chose to adapt existing legislation to accommodate new products derived from rDNA technology. An early study conducted by the National Research Council (NRC) for the National Academies of Science concluded that transgenic methods of plant breeding pose no new categories of risk (NRC 1989)." Subsequent studies reiterated that. So little new regulations.
No, the battle is GM vs non-GM. I will not buy GM food. Nor will many other people. How about this, have GM food labeled then see how many people buy it. Companies like Monsanto fight attempts to require labeling.
The push for profit has given us radical increase in agricultural yield over the past 80 years
One, for most of those 80 years foreign genes were not inserted into plants. Two, more than one thing accounts for increases in yield, And three, a lack of food is not the problem. The problems are political and armed conflicts. With neoliberal policies yields only went up modestly. Here's a story about millions of metric tons of wheat rotting away in a warehouse in India. Another one says how the supply chain is messed up, "Industry experts estimate more than 30% of all fresh produce is lost or spoils before it reaches the market." Many more stories like these can be found. How about in Africa? In the Democratic Republic of Congo looting of crops by armed groups and general insecurity has undermined farming. Or take Zimbabwe. Before Robert Mugabe came to power the country was a bread basket for southern Africa, ie a net food exporter. Food was the one of the biggest if not the biggest cash earner for Zimbabwe. After he came to power he forced white farmers off the farms then gave the land to his cronies, who do not know how to farm. Now Zimbabwe does not grow enough food for its own population.
Quite simply GM will not "fix" the problem of too little food. There's plenty of food so genetic engineering is not needed. To go further Infrastructure: The new gold explains how infrastructure is part of the problem. It blames the rotting food in India on the "country's creaky infrastructure".
Falcon
Herbicide resistance can lead to less herbicide use because you can then apply one herbicide that kills everything but the one thing that is resistant rather than having to apply multiple chemicals depending on what weed you need to eradicate.
Quite the contrary, plants are made herbicide resistant so the plant can be drenched by the herbicide. And as herbicide resistance spreads to the wild even more herbicides or more power herbicides are needed. As it is herbicide resistant weeds were discovered in the early 1970s.
The same could be said for pesticide resistance, perhaps you can apply stronger chemicals but less often which may be safer than having to apply weaker stuff more often.
How about instead of using fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides that are natural gas or petroleum based use organic methods. Instead of planting the same crop year after year rotate crops. Instead of monocultures inter-plant different species, companion planting?
Falcon
Monsanto doesn't have anything to do with Golden Rice? Then you'd better tell CBS they are wrong. And Monsanto.
Falcon
The problem isn't genetic modification--we've been doing that since Mendel, the only difference is the techniques.
No we haven't been doing this, inserting foreign genes into species that doesn't naturally carry it. However it does occasionally happen in nature, Horizontal gene transfer.
I'm surprised that there's so much FUD in this thread aimed at GM, though. I thought /. was supposed to be mostly pro-science nerds that don't confuse evil corporations with anti-science hippie propaganda. :-)
There's a big difference between FUD and running a world wide experiment most people know nothing about. Not even the scientists in the field know everything.
Falcon
Slashdot had an article after the Iraqi invasion where Paul Bremer, who was appointed as the administrator of Iraq's Coalition Provisional Authority, made a law like this: Iraq law Requires Seed Licenses.
Well, the seed they sell you is sterile. Terminator crops will not reproduce so you can't save seed from last year for this year's planting.
Seed saving has been practiced by farmers for thousands of years.
Monsanto tout things like their "Golden Rice" (such a dream name, that one) as helping the poor third world. It's been engineered to have high levels of Vitamin D.
FYI vitamin A not vitamin D. At first look it may sound good, engineering rice to contain a nutrient needed for eyesight, but in fact those who need the vitamin need to eat other foods such as some of those listed here.
Falcon
Then you must know about the shops on Hennepin, Lyndale, Nicolet Mall, Lake St, and Lagoon. You don't know about all the shops on these streets? Or on Excelsior in St Louis Park? Well perhaps driving around blind you miss them, me I ride my bike in the area, it the area I live in too. Heck, you don't know Muddy Waters? Or Penn Cycle? Loon Grocery? Those are just the ones my bad memory can come up with right now. Oh and the Wedge, of which I am a member.
You go downtown and you hardly can find any independent places, it's chains everywhere, and lest we not forget how awful the suburbs are!
I don't go downtown much but when I do more than likely I'm going to Natcam, National Camera Exchange. With 6 stores in the Twin Cities it's huge. NOT!!!
I really don't know anything about your business statistics...maybe they're a sign that Europe is following in our footsteps, which is sad, but what I'm talking about is only what I see when I walk down the street right now.
They're not my statistics they're the European Commission's or someone else's. As for walking I don't walk much, I ride my bike more.
Instead you've got an offie on every corner, with chippy or a kebab shop next to it, bakeries, grocers, butchers, you name it... We just don't get that here. Hardly saying it's perfect, but it's one of the biggest motivators for me to want leave this awful city and move over there!
While we don't have as many shops such as bakeries here as Germany had when I was there we do have them. Actually that is something I loved about it there. There are 2 big motivators for to leave, well three, here. One, it's too far away from either the Atlantic or Pacific. Two, the growing season is too short, at least without a greenhouse. And the third reason is I had to leave close friends when I moved up here. Normally I don't have trouble meeting new people but here I have. One person I did meet, born and raised in MN, told me that instead of the motto saying "Minnesota Nice" it should be "Minnesota Ice". Maybe it's just where I've been but I've had bad luck meeting people here, which is why I now spend hours online daily and don't get out much any more.
Falcon
They can do more, one I had left me more than $1000 in debt, and that was more than 15 years ago.
I do not even have any live in girlfriends. I could do that at one time but now I've been a bachelor too long.
I never had a live-in girlfriend though I'm not opposed to it. While in some ways I could handle having any roommate in other ways I think it will be much harder. Because of my disability I've been living in isolation and do little socializing. However I'm hoping to change that, in the next few weeks I hope to be starting a back to work program.
Falcon
There's a key difference between the USA de Tocqueville wrote about and the USA that Marx and Engels wrote about: The Industrial Revolution had begun to concentrate ownership of economic output in the hands of those who had the means of owning factories.
Yea and slavery was abolished. However abolitionists were fighting to stop slavery even before de Tocqueville came to the USA. In his original drafts of the Declaration of Independence Thomas Jefferson wrote of equal rights for everyone including Blacks and Women in the drafts. These were only removed because pro-slavery and paternalistic Founding Fathers would not sign the declaration unless they were removed. Carl Marx though published his The Communist Manifesto on 21 February 1848, before slavery was ended in the US. That also makes it 20 years after "Democracy in America" (DiA) was published. That's not that much tyme. More tyme went by between Independence was declared and DiA was published.
What's less understandable is that because my great-great-grandfather was a smart guy, I got a loan-free college education when most of my peers did not, so my income is effectively a good 10-15% higher than theirs.
It's also less understood that whereas back when only the wealthy could afford college most anyone in the US can go to college now. You used yourself as an example of getting a college education, well so will I. Neither of my parents were wealthy. My dad retired from the US Air Force as an enlisted person not an officer. My mom attended a technical school while working and raising my sisters and I to become a lab technician in a hospital.
However my mom raised my sisters and I to believe we could do whatever we wanted as long as we worked for it. After high school graduation my older sister and I enlisted in the US Army and after we were discharged we both went to college. My younger sister skipped the military and started college right after high school graduation. She paid for it with scholarships and working. My older sister is now a nurse and my younger sister earned her Masters, passed the test to become a CPA or Certified Public Accountant and now runs her own accounting business. Not only that but she also owns her own home and rental property. She owns the building my apartment is in.
As for me, while in college my major was Computer Engineering. However as a student I was hit in an accident and suffered a disability which derailed my educational and professional goals. Among other things my memory is bad and I have to use compensating techniques because of it. For instance I use both a paper based daily planner, in which I try to make lots of notes, and the software calendar based in my cellphone. I almost always carry both with me and when I make an appointment I'll enter it into both the planner and the cellphone calendar right then and there, if I don't I won't recall to do so later. I still have hopes and continue to work to again become independent.
Falcon