...but the pervasive monitoring doesn't help to solve any crimes? ...the fact remains that CCTVs only help with 3% of all street robberies I have no respect or time for articles when they make blatantly contradictory claims such as these, even if they are from separate sources.
Strictly speaking, American != USA. Though they are commonly equivalent, not all people consider them so - some consider America == {North, Central, South} America.
(because all nations fabricate their past, though some more than others),....because the PRC is not known for reliable statistics. If you want proof, I point you to this on the BBC website
LOL ROFL
Long term, the assimilation of Tibet by China will lead to higher living standards there,
For the poor, yes, but not for the previous leaders.
but the methods used are as brutal
Like what? Also, I don't suppose they're nearly as brutal as the methods used by the Tibetan leadership. I laughed out loud when my mother claimed they were a peaceful people.
To offer more prospects to a country and its people does not excuse trying to wipe out the national identity and culture.
Not even if that 'culture' is responsible for the brutal treatment of the majority of the population, all the while enriching the leaders?
Given the situation, I'd expect there to be a lot of reverse migration into China, what's wrong with that?
Nothing at all. That was my point. People move around for all sort of reasons - not because the government is forcing them to. It's all the same country to these people, so they go where the work is (and there's lots to be had in Tibet now the railway is open).
but I do mind people being mistreated and feel others should speak out on it.
...and yet you're quite happy to ignore the appalling way the Tibetans were being treated by their own leadership?
and no news is being allowed out of the province.
Funny, we get plenty of news about it here.
That was not terrorism, and you're demeaning the term by calling low-key protests that.
You think people weren't *terrified* by the protests/etc even likely to the point where they decided not to carry the torch?
Demeaning or not, it is violent and terrorism. It's only because she was protected by the authorities (Chinese, mostly) that she wasn't hurt.
...they would not be tolerated in China.
They were tolerated in Tibet and in Tiananmen square until things got violent.
You're trying to use the term because you think it has lots of emotional weight; terrorism is a paramilitary tactic, not a civilian protest, or even a civilian riot.
On the contrary, I am using it because that's what it is - it terrorises; induces terror. Others use it because it has 'weight'. I don't even think there's anything inherently wrong with terrorism - well not any more than any other kind of violent conflict - and see little difference between it and what organisations with well defined identity perpetrate (eg (mostly) US army in Iraq).
Reporters go there all the time. It was only *during* the riots that they couldn't go there.
Really, that's funny because the last I heard the only thing reporters were allowed to do was to go on carefully choreographed tours, where monks protested anyway (and probably suffered dearly for it).
So, you're agreeing with me then, albeit using biased terms like 'choreographed tours', and stating other biased assumptions.
People don't riot spontaneously,
What? Are you saying they *plan* riots?
Oh, I think you're saying they don't do it on demand, or when the cameras are pointing at them. Well, of course not.
and when they do there are usually profound discontents involved.
Unless they're planned or incited to riot. That is what the Chinese gov. claim, isn't it? Did you even consider that it's true? I bet not.
Solve the discontents and you remove the reasons for rioting, try to clamp down on them and the central government will have peace for another 10 years.
...and of people start burning the place down...just sit back and do nothing?
I notice my opinion being pushed more towards the Chinese 'side' by the blatantly biased opinions I read here and otherwise. I wonder why that is, and why I can't maintain a balanced position which is probably where my real opinion lies.
Extreme positions seem to breed opposingly extreme positions. That can't be a good thing, imo.
the fundamental human rights issues Like what?
Why the hell do we need to be flooded with 80 billion tons of poorly made crap? (OK, I just made that statistic up.) Yeah, all those poorly made Apple products can go for a start.
I call BS on that - at least partly....I live in BJ and in a non-western part too (ironically, in the west of Beijing), and as of about a month ago, all the web sites I wanted to visit that were previously inaccessible are now accessible. I had a whole list I pushed through a VPN tunnel, but now I don't use the tunnel at all.
Well, the USA doesn't have much of a say, does it?
They could refuse to attend, but IINM the USA was a supporter of Nazi Germany, for at least some time at least, so why would they do that?...or had the USA been forced into the war at that point?
Interesting and it sounds authoritative. However, I have stayed at a few youth hostels and they're quite reasonably price. They're not always very satisfactory condition-wise, which makes me wonder why anyone would want to stay in the sort of places the reported is talking about (not that I have any experience of such, though I can imagine) - I might prefer to sleep on the street or in the station, like he ended up doing.
Actually, I've been on a few of their sleeper trains - they can be really quite acceptable (esp. the better classed ones). Way better than flying anyway, IMO.
Probably changed since then. I *know* Chinese people who have stayed in one of the 'Friendship Hotel's in Beijing.
I've been in Beijing for several years and I've never heard of shops where non-nationals weren't allowed. Of course, there are places where Chinese won't go because the foreigners will all pay way too much and the Chinese won't be able to bargain to such a low price - I have still asked my Chinese friends to go an buy me stuff there though, and they still get a price a lot lower than I could. I sometimes feel like I'm an 'inflation bubble', since some of my Chinese friends notice that even they can't get low prices when I'm around.
Apart from price, the only 'organised' discrimination was when I wasn't allowed in to a show at the People's Hall - that night was for Chinese only. The previous nights were fine, just not that night. Not sure if anything would have been different or if it was just to allow more Chinese to see the show.
Oh, one other time I recall. I was waiting to use a cash point (US:ATM) and some Chinese people came up to wait too, but didn't get behind be to form a line - they just hung around. When the ATM became free, they went to use it, but an official stopped them and beckoned me to go first. Of course, I thought that was how it should be because I was there first, but my Chinese friend said afterwards that the official had said that he allowed me to go first because I was a westerner - company policy or something. Infuriating, to say the least.
IINM, they used to have something similar...but now there are these things called 'WOFE's (pronounced like a dog would say it) - wholly owned foreign enterprises.
one of his children is adopted from China. he puts his money where his mouth is sometimes, and I respect him for that sometimes. I don't see your logic...adoption is putting his money where his mouth is...how, exactly?
I think you mean they could shoot the satellites down, rather than the connections, but still...satellite dishes are common here, but IINM they are not allowed so much as tolerated.
Which is good for you, because the cops would seize and smash both your computers, and your body.
And perhaps lock you up for 10 years.
Just like the DMCA here, working around intentional brokenness is illegal (unlike the old school, "it's just broken" brokenness) and thus dangerous. Albeit we are currently less brutal, our courts will only take and sell off everything you own and only give you 5 years. People use VPN all the time. In fact, one Chinese gov. official said the firewall was all just networking problems, so I doubt the firewall is 'law' as such - certainly not like the DMCA is - and working around it isn't illegal so much as what you are doing when you work around it.
Of course, I'm just speculating and have no intention of trying to test it.
If China stops giving us lead contaminated toys and cheap knockoffs of good products, yeah, the US would have higher prices, Don't blame China for poor QA by US companies.
There are plenty of good quality products made in China - all it takes is some corporate responsibility and decent QA.
it's a multinational corporation and has no right to call itself an "American" company. I don't think most really want that label anyway - it opens them up for general ridicule, or worse, terrorism. I no longer fly on 'US' airlines specifically because of that reason - I even think twice about using UK ones, especially if flying to the US.
Now imagine saying something equally anti-government about the Chinese regime in China... Imagine all you want. I expect you don't *know* what you're talking about - all you know is what people tell you.
Slashdot Mirror
...but the pervasive monitoring doesn't help to solve any crimes?Strictly speaking, American != USA. Though they are commonly equivalent, not all people consider them so - some consider America == {North, Central, South} America.
I assume that's intended to hurt my feelings.
It didn't.
Ok, well, I've never been in there - it's the one out by yong an li (close to the embassy area), I guess....perhaps there are more than one.
I know there are some stores that are duty free and are only for embassy people. Perhaps it's something like that.
(because all nations fabricate their past, though some more than others), ....because the PRC is not known for reliable statistics. If you want proof, I point you to this on the BBC website
LOL ROFL
Long term, the assimilation of Tibet by China will lead to higher living standards there,
For the poor, yes, but not for the previous leaders.
but the methods used are as brutal
Like what? Also, I don't suppose they're nearly as brutal as the methods used by the Tibetan leadership. I laughed out loud when my mother claimed they were a peaceful people.
To offer more prospects to a country and its people does not excuse trying to wipe out the national identity and culture.
Not even if that 'culture' is responsible for the brutal treatment of the majority of the population, all the while enriching the leaders?
Given the situation, I'd expect there to be a lot of reverse migration into China, what's wrong with that?
Nothing at all. That was my point. People move around for all sort of reasons - not because the government is forcing them to. It's all the same country to these people, so they go where the work is (and there's lots to be had in Tibet now the railway is open).
but I do mind people being mistreated and feel others should speak out on it.
and no news is being allowed out of the province.
Funny, we get plenty of news about it here.
That was not terrorism, and you're demeaning the term by calling low-key protests that.
You think people weren't *terrified* by the protests/etc even likely to the point where they decided not to carry the torch?
Demeaning or not, it is violent and terrorism. It's only because she was protected by the authorities (Chinese, mostly) that she wasn't hurt.
...they would not be tolerated in China.
They were tolerated in Tibet and in Tiananmen square until things got violent.
You're trying to use the term because you think it has lots of emotional weight; terrorism is a paramilitary tactic, not a civilian protest, or even a civilian riot.
On the contrary, I am using it because that's what it is - it terrorises; induces terror. Others use it because it has 'weight'. I don't even think there's anything inherently wrong with terrorism - well not any more than any other kind of violent conflict - and see little difference between it and what organisations with well defined identity perpetrate (eg (mostly) US army in Iraq).
Reporters go there all the time. It was only *during* the riots that they couldn't go there.
Really, that's funny because the last I heard the only thing reporters were allowed to do was to go on carefully choreographed tours, where monks protested anyway (and probably suffered dearly for it).
So, you're agreeing with me then, albeit using biased terms like 'choreographed tours', and stating other biased assumptions.
People don't riot spontaneously,
What? Are you saying they *plan* riots?
Oh, I think you're saying they don't do it on demand, or when the cameras are pointing at them. Well, of course not.
and when they do there are usually profound discontents involved.
Unless they're planned or incited to riot. That is what the Chinese gov. claim, isn't it? Did you even consider that it's true? I bet not.
Solve the discontents and you remove the reasons for rioting, try to clamp down on them and the central government will have peace for another 10 years.
...and so are
I notice my opinion being pushed more towards the Chinese 'side' by the blatantly biased opinions I read here and otherwise. I wonder why that is, and why I can't maintain a balanced position which is probably where my real opinion lies.
Extreme positions seem to breed opposingly extreme positions. That can't be a good thing, imo.
Well, that would be better than all the negative and biases press they're getting at the moment. I expect they'd be in favour of it.
I call BS on that - at least partly....I live in BJ and in a non-western part too (ironically, in the west of Beijing), and as of about a month ago, all the web sites I wanted to visit that were previously inaccessible are now accessible. I had a whole list I pushed through a VPN tunnel, but now I don't use the tunnel at all.
I was interested, so I did a quick search...
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Trading_Enemy_excerpts.html
http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/bibliographies/trade-with-third-reich.html
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/waryearsp5.html
Looks like I have some reading to do....
Well, the USA doesn't have much of a say, does it?
...or had the USA been forced into the war at that point?
They could refuse to attend, but IINM the USA was a supporter of Nazi Germany, for at least some time at least, so why would they do that?
Interesting and it sounds authoritative. However, I have stayed at a few youth hostels and they're quite reasonably price. They're not always very satisfactory condition-wise, which makes me wonder why anyone would want to stay in the sort of places the reported is talking about (not that I have any experience of such, though I can imagine) - I might prefer to sleep on the street or in the station, like he ended up doing.
Actually, I've been on a few of their sleeper trains - they can be really quite acceptable (esp. the better classed ones). Way better than flying anyway, IMO.
I've been in Beijing for several years and I've never heard of shops where non-nationals weren't allowed. Of course, there are places where Chinese won't go because the foreigners will all pay way too much and the Chinese won't be able to bargain to such a low price - I have still asked my Chinese friends to go an buy me stuff there though, and they still get a price a lot lower than I could. I sometimes feel like I'm an 'inflation bubble', since some of my Chinese friends notice that even they can't get low prices when I'm around.
Apart from price, the only 'organised' discrimination was when I wasn't allowed in to a show at the People's Hall - that night was for Chinese only. The previous nights were fine, just not that night. Not sure if anything would have been different or if it was just to allow more Chinese to see the show.
Oh, one other time I recall. I was waiting to use a cash point (US:ATM) and some Chinese people came up to wait too, but didn't get behind be to form a line - they just hung around. When the ATM became free, they went to use it, but an official stopped them and beckoned me to go first. Of course, I thought that was how it should be because I was there first, but my Chinese friend said afterwards that the official had said that he allowed me to go first because I was a westerner - company policy or something. Infuriating, to say the least.
IINM, they used to have something similar...but now there are these things called 'WOFE's (pronounced like a dog would say it) - wholly owned foreign enterprises.
satellite dishes are a bit obvious, but what about using one of those satellite phones as a modem....
one of his children is adopted from China. he puts his money where his mouth is sometimes, and I respect him for that sometimes. I don't see your logic...adoption is putting his money where his mouth is...how, exactly?
Well, perhaps because people won't bother listening to you if you do the same things yourself?
I think you mean they could shoot the satellites down, rather than the connections, but still...satellite dishes are common here, but IINM they are not allowed so much as tolerated.
Which is good for you, because the cops would seize and smash both your computers, and your body.
And perhaps lock you up for 10 years.
Just like the DMCA here, working around intentional brokenness is illegal (unlike the old school, "it's just broken" brokenness) and thus dangerous. Albeit we are currently less brutal, our courts will only take and sell off everything you own and only give you 5 years. People use VPN all the time. In fact, one Chinese gov. official said the firewall was all just networking problems, so I doubt the firewall is 'law' as such - certainly not like the DMCA is - and working around it isn't illegal so much as what you are doing when you work around it.
Of course, I'm just speculating and have no intention of trying to test it.
If China stops giving us lead contaminated toys and cheap knockoffs of good products, yeah, the US would have higher prices, Don't blame China for poor QA by US companies.
There are plenty of good quality products made in China - all it takes is some corporate responsibility and decent QA.
I don't understand why they would do this when they can do it at the national level....
or port 80...
I would rate that post 'interesting' or perhaps 'insightful'.