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China Wants US-Owned Hotels to Censor Internet
jp_papin writes "The Chinese government is demanding that US-owned hotels there filter Internet service during the upcoming Olympic Games in Beijing, US Senator Sam Brownback has alleged. The Chinese government is requiring US-owned hotels to install Internet filters to 'monitor and restrict information coming in and out of China,' Brownback said Thursday. 'This is an insult to the spirit of the games and an affront to American businesses,' he said. 'I call on China to immediately rescind this demand.' US State Department spokesman Tom Casey said he wasn't aware of those specific requests from the Chinese government, but Brownback said he got the information on Internet filtering from 'two different reliable but confidential sources.' The State Department is apparently continuing dialog with China about freedom of expression."
A senator quoting "reliable but confidential" sources on the internet? It's most likely from his pal, the Nigerian Prince, and also that nice wife of Mbutu Seke-seke. I've gotten reliable but confidential email from them, too, but they asked me not to talk to anyone about it.
John
In fact, I know the name of the source. He is none other tha#$^&@%^@
NO CARRIER
I'm failing to see why this is a shock.
Do these US senators expect Chinese hotels in the US to follow US law? If so, then why the shock?
My Journal
So you're saying that the Chinese authorities wants the hotels that operate in China to follow Chinese laws and regulations? Shocking!
Next you're going to tell me that American citizens have their right to bear arms violated when they're in Europe.
And the Chinese have never really worried about foreigners with VPNs. Its the locals that need to be kept in control.
I think this senator got his information from the same reliable sources that found proof for Iraqi WMDs.
what did the US (and any other freedom loving person) expect when giving the Communist Chinese the Olympics?
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
...seeing stegonographic and other kinds of tools proliferate in China so that the whole censorship policy is rendered completely moot.
If they had some kind of translator to take a message and encode it in a Chinese version of rhyming slang, how nifty would that be?
Particularly if the product could appear pro-Communist. I guess pictograms would render such a project "non-trivial".
Loyal to the Group of 17 would be so proud of the Chinese government.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I'm sure the American government has never asked foreign owned businesses to do anything they wouldn't like. I love the smell of politics in the morning. It smells like hypocrisy.
The way I see it, someone didn't do a proper business risk review when they made an investment in China, and now they are seeking help because things are not working as they planned.
Their rules.
If you don't like it, then leave.
If you want somebody to blame, then direct it to the International Olympic Committee. Each country took a vote and China was selected.
Like or not....
Why not pull out our athletes out of the games until China adopts a default policy of Freedom and Liberty?
Fuck that Censorshit!
I'll take good old US Style Blanket Surveillance any-day!
Thanks AT&T! For keeping us safe by spying on us for the Bush Gang -- even if it is completely unlawful to do so!
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
How is that different from what's happening now? I stayed at the Hilton in Beijing (supposedly property of an American company) last year, and they of course filtered the net connection. No boobie pages, some political pages didn't work; even SSH connections were impossible for one whole day during my stay.
SoftMaker Office for Windows|Linux|Android
We're talking about China here. The Great Firewall of China. Ring any bells? Here, how about this one. Chinas first name: Communist. Anything? Still nothing?
Don't like it? Then don't do business there.
While I don't like censorship in the least, I also don't like US hegemony either -- either by the government or the businesses. China -- its people and its government -- need to work out their own issues with regards to privacy and censorship and freedom of access to information.
Oh well -- China has the US by its financial balls, so all I see coming out of this is a bunch of whining on the US part with little to no real action.
And of course, the question of what form any possible "action" would take, anyway? Pulling out of the Olympics? That's not fair to all those athletes who devoted a good portion of their lives preparing for this event.
Gotta love geo-politics.
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
Aren't all of these hotels behind the Great Firewall of China anyway? How are they getting their Internet connections if not? Something doesn't sound quite right about this. I don't see how they can NOT be filtered, even if they didn't want it.
Let's work on freedom of expression in the USA before we go telling China how to run their country. It's sick in this day and age that you can get arrested for flag burning, protesting outside of a "free speech zone", or because you criticize the rulers a little too loudly. Until we fix these things, I think a little Internet filtering in another country is the least of our worries.
Hell, a lot of hotels in the U.S. aren't even owned by U.S. companies, their owned by the Japanese. That's true, at least, of every single hotel in Hawaii.
Of course we expect these hotels to operate in accordance with U.S. law. Of course, the thing is that the Japanese tend to always seek excellenece in their endeavors -- and, in their view, excellence includes strict compliance with the law.
OTOH, many hotels owned by American companies and individuals don't operate in accordance with U.S. law -- cleanliness standards that aren't up to state and federal health codes, employing undocumented workers as housekeeping staff.
So uhh...what is it they're screaming and handwaving about again?
My blog
The press release can be read in its entirety on the official Sam Brownback site.
Seems a fair enough position for a politician to take, given that he sits on one or more subcomittees that are involved with international/human rights types of issues.
On the other hand, he is a Republican.
And he's from Kansas.
If you're not prepared to fill in your own joke, the Wikipedia article on him should give you some ideas.
what about Yahoo! a couple of years ago? isn't that a "US-owned" company?
-undocumented workers
+illegal immigrants
There, fixed your doublespeak for you.
In China, even *Americans* must obey Chinese law! Gee, who would have thought?
Don't like it? Your options are:
1. Don't do business there.
2. Ask them to change their laws. Good luck with that.
3. The Iraq thing. Good luck with that too.
A hotel is not an embassy; Chinese law applies within its walls.
No matter how much you dislike the chinese government's position, what this is nevertheless is enforcing rules on them, in their own country. Who cares if the hotels in question are "US-owned"? Would you accept that "chinese-owned" factories in, say, Texas, operate according to chinese rules?
If you start a hotel in China, you know that you're in China, and that chinese laws and customs apply to you. You may not like them, for whatever reason. You may think they are inhuman and evil, but they are the law of the land.
If you don't like it, there's a simple solution: Don't do business there!.
But no, our corporate masters want to have it both ways. None of the large international corporations would want to leave the huge chinese market to the competitors.
I don't support the chinese government in their position on censorship, oppression or the liberal application of the death penalty, but I do support them on their strong stand towards international corporations and anyone else messing with their internal politics. I think right now China is the only government not falling over backwards when some RIAA or Microsoft comes calling, and instead reminding them just who owns the land and the tanks.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
At least that will be the case according to the official news sources.
Dutch MP's are demanding that the US lifts its ban on prostitutes, calling it an affront to capitalism's oldest profession. Film at 11
It seems rather hypocritical for US politicians to criticize censorship in China when they refuse to do anything to stop censorshop right here in the US and often support it. I am referring to the lack of action being taken on net neutrality and prohibuting corporations from censoring the internet. People think that because its a corporation its not a real threat, but it is. These corporations become de facto governments when they can control so many resources, such as major communications infrastructure, these corporations through their policies can have the same effect as government in effectively limiting free speech.This is why ISPs must be common carriers and required to carry all information over them verbatim.
Sometimes it seems the real reason the politicians criticize china is to cover up the fact that they allow censorship right here, and are representatives of the corporations that carry out this censorship. Politicians in the US take campaign donations from corporations, essentially the corporations elect them and they represent the corporations interest. Whoever has the best funding has the best chance of winning so corporations can control elections through who they give donations to. Add to that most of the US media is controlled by a few large corporate conglomerates who basically can filter and conspire to propogandise the ignorant and gullible public. People are not really the ones making the decisions anymore, the process is controlled by corporations and special interests, the american people are brainwashed into thinking they have a choice, when they really do not. You have a media which basically controls most of their information, and can tell them who to vote for, by excluding or including information you can control the available information they have to work with and thus their decision making. The way you make people think they have a choice is by giving them options, but controlling those options. A politicians campaign can easily be destroyed if their funding is withdrawn and the corporation and establishment can weed out those it does not like (like Kucinich, Paul, etc). The media simply ignores them or gives them a fraction of the attention of other preferred candidates.
We should walk out of China and not look back. All of this complaining by money making ventures will do no good.
News flash for those that don't know. This is old news.
The "westerners" only hotels in China are censored. It is a little less lax then normal Chinese hotels (for example you can watch BBC). But there is censorship and even other rules, for example the only chinese allowed on the hotels premises when I was there had to be working in the hotel.
The censorship is more directed at the population though rather then to external sources.
Lastly it is their country, even if like me you don't agree with this. If you don't like, then don't go to the country.
The shock comes from China's promise to bolster freedom of expression and human right during the Olympic Games when Beijing was chosen a few years ago.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
That's how we all start speaking chinese Firefly style. We say we aren't gonna obey censorship and fight to get the games somewhere else. They tell the Chinese public we hate all that is good(they won't even come into our wonderful country), they invade with the love and support of those they subjugate. That's how these things work.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
In February 2006, the Hotel Maria Isabel Sheraton hotel (a franchise of the Sheraton group) in Mexico City was ordered by the US Treasury Department to throw out a group of Cuban officials who were staying there, because their presence violated US law and the Sheraton Group was an American company. In complying with the requirement, the hotel broke local law and faced $500,000 fines before the situation was smoothed over.
I am reading from China, from a Chinese owned hotel and wonder how well that censorship is working...
IOC doesn't even pretend to care about freedom. All they care about is money, while pretending to care about sport. [ Quite unlike the US, which only cares about money, while pretending to care about freedom. ]
Well, what is interesting is that sending US and EU athletes and officials to the Games is also just a promise...
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Would the USA have allowed Nazi Germany to host the Olympic games? I DON'T THINK SO.
Athletes should be allowed to compete in these games without the interference of political entities. These are the WORLD games. the Protests of Chinese issues that hindered the torch running are a discrace....go protest at the Chinese Embassy..not block the runners. Politics and sports should be like Church and State..keep them seperated.
Why is this marked funny? Back in 2001 during their Beijing hosting bid, China promised precisely NOT to do this. They also promised total freedom of movement and reporting for international press, which they have also broken (see: Tibet.) China is hoping you all have short memories, but I forget nothing. I wish I could link to a news article with all the stuff they promised, but going back that far most sites charge for access.
Because they are obliged to not censor during the Olympics. This would actually be one of the things that would get the EU and the US to reconsider their participation in the games, Tibet certainly won't. The Olympic committee (I believe it may be one of those preconditions of holding the games) is obliging China to not restrict (at least) journalists.
To be honest they should just wait until the games begin, then censor everyone themselves. Which they already can and do.
We'll censor our athletes, cause we're helpful like that. And we don't want any ungrateful comments about that smog, making us seem like bad losers. (Us being the UK)
If this were really happening, what would you think?
Or just bring your own satellite dish, Chinese firewalls can't block that ;-)
Looking forward to the day that public spectrum wireless technologies can be propogated for 10's or 100's of miles. Then China's boarders will have Internet leaking in from every corner. They're facing a losing, not to mention, stupid and expensive battle. Only a question of time.. tick, tock, tick, tock.
And trying ot hack other countries? That is seriously stupid. Wait till the Russians and Israilies get wind of that, j00'll be begging for mercy.
No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
The west could boycott THIS. While I did not like the idea of boycotting over Tibet (that is a LONG standing issue and really the west should not interfer in it), this is a different matter. When China was awarded the Oylpmics, there was no censoring going on. More importantly, it appeared to many in the west that China would continue to open up. Now they pop this in over the last few years.
I do have to say, that I am not a fan of boycotts. We use them far too often.
You see, this could all have been avoided if the IOC had chosen Toronto for 2008 rather than Beijing. Then we could all have had a nice, predictable Olympics games.
ArsTechnica has an article on this topic, and they point out that the allegations don't make any sense - Internet access in China is already filtered at the ISP level.
Unless these hotels are buying direct connections to a provider outside of China (and why would they?), they are already behind the Chinese Great Firewall and subject to its filtering.
Conversely, for China to honor its agreement about allowing unfettered Internet access during the Olympics, they will need to open up the wall for these hotels.
The whole story smells like fud.
Unless the hotels are bypassing Chinese infrastructure (direct satellite uplinks?), it's not like they have a choice as to whether their internet communications are filtered or not.
I'm not taking a position for or against Sam, his statement, this bill, Yahoo, Google, the Chinese, the US, or any of that. I'm just surprised that a forum that has been so critical of cooperation with censorship would also be so critical of an attempt to give these companies some air cover, so to speak.
What do you see as the essential differences between the alleged request made of the hotels, and say, Cisco?
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
"The State Department is apparently continuing dialog with China about freedom of expression."
Yea... like the US is in any position to talk these days.
[an error occurred while processing this sig]
Since the issue of net filtering and censorship in China is largely a non-topic, I asked myself why should the Olympics make any difference when discussing individual Countries Law and expecting exceptions to those Laws. In short, what is so great about the present day Olympics?
- Tradition? Seems to me the original spirit of the games has long been lost. It's all about advertising, ratings, and the almighty dollar bill. $10 hot dog, anyone?
- Bragging rights? Aren't there 'World organizations' for this stuff already? Don't the best of the best already compete against each other?
- Excitement? Watching some muscle-head lob a 15 pound aerodynamic (sortof) rock downrange just doesn't have the same pizazz as watching CNN-cam on the front end of a Sat-Killer. Ditto on the ice thing with rocks and brooms (not the vulcanized rock, the other one).
- Nationalism? If they were proud of their country, why do some come to the USA to get professionally paid only to be shipped back home to wear a different uniform for a few weeks? Seems hypocritical.
- Achievement? Oh joy of joys, yet another feel good story about how a gymnast with a hangnail toughed it out. Compare that to the tanks 'guarding' parking lot, I'm uninspired.
- Pride? My valuable medals. 'Nuff said.
The shock comes from the fact that the US is home to like 20 million Chinese...the shock comes from the fact that they are welcome to live and monopolize and own as they please here in the states. The shock is from the fact they can own and operate businesses here in the states free from all equal opportunity laws. (ever see a white, black or Spanish person working at a small Chinese business?) So yea, now the US wants and rightfully deserves a little carte blanche during the games.
Cisco bends over for China to sell routers, and Slashdot criticizes China and Cisco and says "don't do business there".
Hotels bend over for China to rent rooms, and Slashdot criticizes China and the hotels and says "don't do business there".
What exactly is this difference that you're demanding an explanation for?
This isn't a shock. It's called putting pressure on the Chinese to grant basic human rights to their citizens by using the Olympics. Sorry that you don't feel it's important.
Feudal Theocracy.
If they'd have had oil, they'd have been declared an axis of evil by now.
Deleted
Oh yeah? What color is my tie?
MABASPLOOM!
I've seen this argument a lot, and it is terrible. It goes like this:
"We expect foreign businesses to follow our rules. Therefore we can't criticize anyone else's rules."
I hope the flaw is apparent. We ALWAYS have the right to complain about nasty rules -- including our own nasty rules! That's right, if we force foreign businesses to do awful things then we SHOULD be criticized for it. Likewise, we have the right and duty to call out other countries when they pull this stuff.
Unless these hotels are in diplomatic missions or a particular hotel room serves a diplomat, it's their country, their rules.
If we as a country don't like it, we are free to boycott the Olympics, ban American travel to China, require that American hotel chains divest themselves of Chinese holdings, or take other steps to tell China that America wants no part of censorship.
I don't see any of this happening.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_299.pdf
THEME 16: COMMUNICATIONS
AND MEDIA SERVICES
Concept & Communication
The Beijing communications strategy is based on
a desire to provide greater opportunities for more
people to share the excitement of the Olympic
Games.
It was confirmed to the Commission that there
will be no restrictions on media reporting and
movement of journalists up to and including
the Olympic Games.
I could easily see media companies getting together and being willing to pay a premium to a willing hotel so that their reporters could have unfettered access to the Internet during their stay. I could also see how China might get wind of this and decide they don't like it.
I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
Rather than a country's athletes boycotting the games, why don't the media boycott it instead? China spends billions hosting the games and the only coverage they get (apart from that of the torch relay, which has been a PR disaster for them) is a couple of column inches reporting who won each event. No opening ceremony, no 'look at the country' type reports. Nothing.
If there is one thing that reporters really don't like it is having their ability to speak and report freely curtailed. You can bet your bottom dollar that if China follows through with this policy then they will be called out on it by western journalists during the games and reminded of their previous assurances. The 2008 Beijing Olympics are shaping up to be the most politically charged games in a generation, even the Moscow games of 1980 and the subsequent Soviet boycott of the Los Angeles games in 1984 did not draw as much world wide attention and controversy as the upcoming Beijing games have. The Chinese are proving to the world once again that they have a tin ear for international public relations with their handling of the torch relay and the Tibet issue.
In Soviet China the (censored)!
Because at some point, fuck the law.
Given that the very act of a torch relay (not the use of the Torch itself, but the relay) came about as Nazi propaganda for the 1936 Olympics, I think it's a bit short-sighted to say that the political protests surrounding this year's relay are a "disgrace." I think that the athletes should be able to compete all they want, free of political pull, but the relay is historically a political act.
China - Love it or Leave It!
Censorship isn't free!
The Hilton in Oahu too?
The only way to get rid of a totalitarian system is to bankrupt it. Be it communism or something that we see in China. Helping their government by developing their economy and making them richer will only strengthen their grip. Thinking that it may make people more aware and demand freedoms was naive and shortsighted at best and IMO it was a plain lie produced by (mostly american) corporate drones. It was an excuse to make better profits in exchange to feeding one of the most bloody regimes in the world. In a totalitarian state people care less about freedom if a regime makes their economic situation better over time. In such conditions, regime can easily strengthen its grip in exchange of a better material situation of state's citizens. It can easily squash any opponents - citizens won't mind see them killed.
When I was a child in 80's, we had communism here in Poland. There were bad times in terms of both freedoms and economy (virtually everything was limited - including such basic products as butter, sugar or milk) - there was nearly nothing in stores and if there was something, you could buy only limited amount of it. People were staying hours in queues to buy a piece of meat and one adult person could buy some around 1kg a month, no more. People were VERY angry, so communist government decided to waive their powers in exchange to a convenient and fairly safe retirement. Basically - in exchange for freedom and hopes of better economical situation, people agreed to forgive communists' past actions (including many illegal imprisonments, kills and other things regime did in the past) and not to harras them anymore. Many people think that it was a big mistake to let them go away unpunished but I think it was a great achievment to get rid of communism in such a peaceful way, without a single shot. The sole reason of communism fall was its bankrupcy. The same worked in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Eastern Germany, Russia, baltic lands and other countries. Some countries did well and now enjoying freedoms in Western Europe style). Some did not so well and have fallen back into regime (say Russia, Bielarus). But we shared one thing in common - we all bankrupted. In some countries, like Romania, people were starving and their desperacy caused them to revolt and kill regime leaders.
And now look at those RICH regimes - as China or Russia. Their governments don't have ANY inventive to give away their powers. Officials running those countries don't have the same level of empathy that, say, slashdot crowd has (in general). They are damn cold blooded suckers committed to kill everyone standing in their way. On the other hand people also have no incentive to fight with regime - as long as one doesn't complain about government, one does well. At the point one gets in conflict, one gets into a big, bad trouble.
Back to China. Compared to communist Poland from '80s, they have very good economic situation (which Poland lacked) and a BIG MESS in terms of human rights. As I read stories about their practices of imprisoning, torturing and killing people, I doubt we had such a mess in Poland - even in stalinism times, in '50s. Imprisoning and killing someone just to have replacement organs for some f*ck'n official's wasn't seen in Poland since Nazi camps in '40s. Torturing and killing political opponents in such a grand scale also hasn't been seen in most of communist states since '50s. And it is common in China in 2008.
Summary:
- good economy will only strenghten regime, not weaken it; the only way to get rid of a regime is to bankrupt it and let them voluntary give away their powers;
- we should thank our corporate drones for strenghtening chineese regime to the point it got unstoppable and IMO became direct danger to all of us;
- I'm avoiding chineese products as much as possible, I won't go to China and I won't leave a single dime there; I won't watch olympic games in China;
The first copy of this post got disappered, so I'm posting it again. If both will show up, sorry.
The only way to get rid of a totalitarian system is to bankrupt it. Be it communism or something that we see in China. Helping their government by developing their economy and making them richer will only strengthen their grip. Thinking that it may make people more aware and demand freedoms was naive and shortsighted at best and IMO it was a plain lie produced by (mostly american) corporate drones. It was an excuse to make better profits in exchange to feeding one of the most bloody regimes in the world. In a totalitarian state people care less about freedom if a regime makes their economic situation better over time. In such conditions, regime can easily strengthen its grip in exchange of a better material situation of state's citizens. It can easily squash any opponents - citizens won't mind see them killed.
When I was a child in 80's, we had communism here in Poland. There were bad times in terms of both freedoms and economy (virtually everything was limited - including such basic products as butter, sugar or milk) - there was nearly nothing in stores and if there was something, you could buy only limited amount of it. People were staying hours in queues to buy a piece of meat and one adult person could buy some around 1kg a month, no more. People were VERY angry, so communist government decided to waive their powers in exchange to a convenient and fairly safe retirement. Basically - in exchange for freedom and hopes of better economical situation, people agreed to forgive communists' past actions (including many illegal imprisonments, kills and other things regime did in the past) and not to harras them anymore. Many people think that it was a big mistake to let them go away unpunished but I think it was a great achievment to get rid of communism in such a peaceful way, without a single shot. The sole reason of communism fall was its bankrupcy. The same worked in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Eastern Germany, Russia, baltic lands and other countries. Some countries did well and now enjoying freedoms in Western Europe style). Some did not so well and have fallen back into regime (say Russia, Bielarus). But we shared one thing in common - we all bankrupted. In some countries, like Romania, people were starving and their desperacy caused them to revolt and kill regime leaders.
And now look at those RICH regimes - as China or Russia. Their governments don't have ANY inventive to give away their powers. Officials running those countries don't have the same level of empathy that, say, slashdot crowd has (in general). They are damn cold blooded suckers committed to kill everyone standing in their way. On the other hand people also have no incentive to fight with regime - as long as one doesn't complain about government, one does well. At the point one gets in conflict, one gets into a big, bad trouble.
Back to China. Compared to communist Poland from '80s, they have very good economic situation (which Poland lacked) and a BIG MESS in terms of human rights. As I read stories about their practices of imprisoning, torturing and killing people, I doubt we had such a mess in Poland - even in stalinism times, in '50s. Imprisoning and killing someone just to have replacement organs for some f*ck'n official's wasn't seen in Poland since Nazi camps in '40s. Torturing and killing political opponents in such a grand scale also hasn't been seen in most of communist states since '50s. And it is common in China in 2008.
Summary:
- good economy will only strenghten regime, not weaken it; the only way to get rid of a regime is to bankrupt it and let them voluntary give away their powers;
- we should thank our corporate drones for strenghtening chineese regime to the point it got unstoppable and IMO became direct danger to all of us;
- I'm avoiding chineese products as much as possible, I won't go to China and I won't leave a single dime there; I won't watch olympic games in China;
You'll still get one in 2012.
1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
You are wearing a red and white club tie in a half-windsor knot.
Way to go IOC...
I thought you had gotten China to agree to have _Chinese_ hotels have unfiltered Internet access(and hadn't considered there might not be that many). Now I hear you didn't even get an exemption from chinese laws, while claiming you won concessions from the Chinese...
Were they just that much better at the negotiating table than you, or were the human rights issue an issue of everyone but the negotiators...
It's still not too late to cancel the Beijing games...
Except for the journalists working for companies owned by Rupert Murdoch (he really doesn't want to upset China - in the past, he's done things like kicking a BBC TV station off a satellite in the region he owns because it's annoying the Chinese government). Then there's the ones working for mega-corporations with interests in China - they'll have pressure on them to not do anything too controversial.
I suspect most/all of the US TV news stations have reasons not to upset the Chinese government. The newspapers won't be quite as bad, nor will non-US news, but it's still fairly significant.
Back when Jimmy Carter was president, a good number of countries boycotted the 1980 Moscow Olympic games over the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The athletes at the time, as I recall, were devastated.
It would be nice to see some countries put their money where their mouth is (including the US) and boycott the China Olympics.
Not just over this Internet censorship thing; I'm more interested in the fundamental human rights issues than I am in whether they censor the Internet for visiting foreigners. As a basic fundamental principal and statement of support for human rights, events of worldwide importance and recognition should not be held in countries run by oppressive governments.
I assume there's also some sort of preferred trading status between China and the US; that should go too. Why the hell do we need to be flooded with 80 billion tons of poorly made crap? (OK, I just made that statistic up.)
Unfortunately, as so many other posters has said, the US no longer stands for principles and freedom. We stand for profit.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Yes.
My blog
2010 will be in Vancouver
Website Just Down For Me? Find out
Why, the whole Olympics is a political thing, 1990 was the first modern olympic games without anybody not-turning up through protest. Most of the modern Olympic games symbolism is from the 1936 games (a.k.a Hitler propaganda stunt)
Politics & International competitions never have, are not and never will be separate.
Come on bush just grow the balls that Starkozy & even Brown have got and dont turn up to the opening ceremony.
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
Actually, there's more to it than that. There was an interesting article in Private Eye about the IOC president at the time China was given the Olympics, Juan Antonio Samaranch. Basically, he's a fascist who was a strong supporter of China's bid for the 2000 Olympics a couple of years after Tiananmen Square. (He even did a photo-op cycling around the square as part of his support. He also gave the highest IOC honour to Chen Xitong, the leader of the 2000 bid, then-mayor of Beijing, and the person responsible for sending in the troops at Tiananmen Square.)
Of course, Private Eye does have a tendency to get successfully sued for libel, but they also tend to be accurate (often even *when* someone has successfully sued them for libel over the claims in question). Besides, this seems to mostly check out.
Look at who americans chose as their president. Probably their senators aren't that smart either and don't know that China isn't part of USA
I was going to Beijing to compete in the beer drinking competition. They are going to filter Internet traffic now? Great, so now I won't be able to look at Internet pr0n after the competition while I am shitfaced? Forget it! I'm staying home!
Kickass Cheap Web Hosting
Yeah or have all their system setup with openDNS and proxies to avoid the firewall, as has been stated many times avoiding the firewall is about as difficult as geting around your school firewall!
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
And herein is the first lesson of the politician: Once you're in, all bets and promises are off. GW Bush did this, and his father was forced into breaking a very famous (and very foolish) promise; many politicians make big sweeping promises that they can or will never keep, because that's what gets them into a position where they can call the shots.
What the IOC should have done is look at the entire history of Communist China, especially how it treats dissidents, and told them, "Thanks for applying! Here are a few things you can work on before we can consider your application..." Instead, they followed the money, knowing that China's economy was going to explode, and wanted a piece of the action (they'll deny this publicly, of course, if a discussion on All Things Considered is any clue-- and the IOC representative then sounded sickeningly like a propaganda agent). In many ways they're like the ISO, and China like Microsoft; it's great when everyone plays by the rules, but one pigheaded bully can spoil it for everyone.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
This news sounds bogus to me, exactly because the Chinese government is already doing the censoring:
While I dislike China's censorship, I think this type of news looks bogus, attempts to get media attention, and has the exact purpose of exaggerating the situation.
I seem to recall reading that most of the foreign-owned hotels in China provide less-censored internet access, mainly for the benefit of foreign visitors.
I just was not so naive as to really believe china would hold that type of promise. And why should they ? From what i can see, except a few incensed rant on new broadcast / blog / newpaper, nobody willc are, economy will not change, contract will be signed. The US and my own country, would not hold any freaking promise if they can get away with the benefits , without having to pay a price. Get real.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It is easier to work around censorship, then to escape blanket surveillance, in the actual state of technology. Surveillance is forever. If needed they can store it for later checks. And surveillance include SELF-censorship "if I say that, it will be saved on tape by NSA/Governement/private firm/whoever and can land me in gitmo or 5 feet under earth". It only cost them storage in a sense. I really really prefer censorship to a blanket surveillance society.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
And they most certainly CAN leave.
They didn't mention the indigenous chinese, YOU did.
Oh, I am, am I?
Is that what you think?
Well if that's what you think, I have something to tell you...
Something which may shock and discredit you...
And that thing is as follows...
I'm not wearing a tie at all.
MABASPLOOM!
Grow up.
You've been given the chance to host the worlds most premier games, to participate in the grand community of olympic nations - and you still behave like an irrational child.
I vote veto the games - Even though they're becoming corporateized and anal-retentiviesed, they shouldn't be Chinaized!
Well most of the idiots in the country don't remember what the U.S. Government did to them yesterday, and what it is doing to them today. Why would they remember some promise from China 7 year ago? Hell most idiots in this country don't remember what they had for diner last night.
Yet another douchebag in the senate that is more worried about the freedom of people in china then in this country.
Clean your guns, it's time for the revolution.
The correct term is "Illegal Aliens".
This is hypocrisy at its finest given that this will be the first year athletes are allowed to blog at all during the games and that the Olympic committee places gigantic restrictions on what they're allowed to write about, and what kind of photos they're allowed to publish (practically none.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
As I said, "We'll censor our athletes". The difference is that whatever restrictions are placed on the athletes (I remember a Scottish skier couldn't have a Scottish flag died into his hair because it was "a nationalist flag"), the journalists (and hopefully the attending world public) do not have any restrictions. Hypocritical it may be but there is a difference between getting your participants to toe the line and allowing people to report on the event. Nothing would be more damaging to the games (and a little bit to China) than journo's coming home and writing up after the event on what they couldn't do.
If this were really happening, what would you think?
It's funny because what kind of idiot would actually believe them and their promises to allow freedom of press, expression, etc.? If the Soviet Union had hosted the Olympics under Stalin, and he made promises like this, would anyone have believed him? Next thing you know, North Korea's going to make a bid to host the Olympics, and Kim Jong Il will make grand promises like this, and everyone will believe him too. Then the Taliban will want to host the Olympics too, and will promise to allow female athletes to wear normal, skintight costumes or swimwear with no hoods over their faces, and people will believe them.
If you take gullibility too far, you're just plain stupid.
When in the host country, you obey the laws there, period. An tourist convicted of theft in a country that uses maiming as a sentence gets his hand cut off, and a tourist in China gets his internet filtered.
This is not an excuse for whining and trying to get a special dispensation from the country to make an exception to their laws... it is a *reason* not to sponsor the event at all.
They made their choices. They are going. No whining about the pesky laws in that totalitarian regime. Lie with dogs, rise with fleas.
> Their rules.
> If you don't like it, then leave.
I don't let people say that about foreigners vs. ridiculous rules we citizens don't have to adhere to in the US (our immigration laws are ridiculous), so I won't say that about China either.
Whenever people act xenophobic, or use "it's our country" as an excuse--especially when fellow US citizens do it--I tell them to shove it.
Which reminds me: shove it.
P.S. They promised not to do this when they bid for the Olympics, so they're breaking their promise, too. But they have to with the way they're lying to their people about Tibet.
why do we even host the olympics in different cities. It seems like such a waste of resources for each city to bid ridiculus amounts of money and then later even more just for the luxury of hosting it. Its retarded in my opinion imagine how much more water certain farmers could have in one country and all the unnecessary metals used to build additional structures. It just seems more responsible of a people to just have them in one location and save a lot of headaches and wastefulness. Me I don't really watch the olympics anyway so maybe my view is a little scewed.
What does Tibet have to do with the Olympics? I really find it difficult to fault China for breaking a promise to the IOC over Tibet.
Q.
Damn, all I hear lately is China wants this,China wants that.China wants a humanistic fascade,China wants Taiwan,China wants protesters to shut up,China wants people to keep buying its low grade crap from Wal~Mal.China wants Tibet to bend over and cooperate.
How about China man up and take care of its own sh*t for a change? How about if it wants a positive image it act that way instead of the same old commie sluts they continue to act as.
Well I for one am not gonna take it anymore.
China can want in one hand and sh*t in the other just to see which hand fills up first.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
We can's do both at the same time?
Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt your rant with some sense, carry on...
Bah, they did the same thing for that war criminal Tony Blair, who got the olympics in 2012. Stay fair.
OTOH I think the big surprise here is that the Chinese government doesn't filter the internet themselves at the ISP level. Why do they even need to ask for the hotel's cooperation on this? I was under the impression that the Great Firewall is implemented at the ISP level? Interesting... if this is not the case than what is preventing bootleg ISPs from selling unrestricted access at premium prices in order to turn a profit off of this government imposed censorship? I guess penalty of death would be a good deterrent there. The only reason for censoring your people is for fear that they will become educated to "the outside", realize how good it could be, and stage a Coup d'état. If I were the Chinese government I'd think twice about this and many other policies that inhibit human rights.
Whats the point of having a hegemony if you don't use it.
Serious btw...
What I have seen and heard are BBC reports on the army laying down their weapons, protesters picking them up, and also seen BBC video of protesters burning soldiers alive. You don't tend to hear that side of the story so much in the western 'media'... Of course, Private Eye does have a tendency to get successfully sued for libel, but they also tend to be accurate (often even *when* someone has successfully sued them for libel over the claims in question). Besides, this seems to mostly check out. So, it could well be rubbish then....quoting 'private eye'...what a joke. At least you recognised is as potential rubbish...
Max.
Every previous case where we gave host ship to a nation of ill repute like Nazi Germany Soviet Russia Dictatorial Korea has ended badly so why did anybody expect anything different from the most oppressive dictatorial nation on the face of the earth who has done same for longer than any other nation with no different results than it has had over the last 5000 years (repressive and negative evolutionary results).
Really seriously you think that they will shape up now that media attention has been focused on a nation that ignored and buried a video recorded case of a Chinese tank running over an innocent unarmed Chinese student?
Ok so they didn't really bury it so much as refuse to acknowledge its existence and make every other business and news organization basically not talk about it by whatever way they could.
To conclude me for my part to state my opinion I will not view or take part in any way shape or for in the Communist Chinese imperialistic excuses for an Olympics games.
The rest of you can do as you please but you have to live with your own choice of weather or not to support this inhuman monstrous oppresionistic excuse for an Olympics games if you can even laughingly call it that.
But don't stand their for one second and try to convince the rest of us here that it's anything other than what it is. You can force thoughts living under thoughts conditions that it is that (or die) but to expect anybody else to laughingly say so is just plain insane.
Really grow a brain or at least try.
Bottom Line this Olympics games is nothing other than A joke and a platform for communist china to spew more of its oppressive communistic rhetoric.
Coward? Coward! Thems fighten words!!
The Olympics may once have been about international co-operation and peace, but the cynic in me doubts it. Regardless, today what it's about is is making money by getting people to rally around their sports stars and using IP law in every possible way to screw every possible cent out of every last person the IOC can get crazed enough to spend up big. Gold and doing your best and achieving to the limit my left nut! Gold digging more like. The athletes are often within fractions of a second of each other, achieving just about to the limit of human endurance (or at the very least within about 5% of it). The actions, rules and behaviour of the IOC clearly shows they're interested in money and not in any noble or virtuous cause!
The Olympics are for suckers.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Who needs rights anyway just obey your chinese overmasters and do what they tell you to! After all USA is 500 billion+ in their dept... Not like USA uses the constition anyway...
Have you seen this huge Russian Missile?
Go here....take a look...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7383897.stm
"We do not threaten anyone and do not intend to do so," Putin said.
Hello, Mr.Putin....eh....how about those Russian troops that are in Georgia now and those that are stationed along the border of Ukraine?
I remember Hitler once gave a speech to his people after entered Rhineland...."We pledge that we have no territorial demands to make in Europe.".....Then he entered Sudetenland.....then it was history...
Scary...
The most scary part is that...the news media tend to ignore the Russian Georgia conflict. Those neo-con ( NewsMax, etc...including DrudgeReport, Townhall...whatever...) don't wanna talk about it. If you want to know more about what Russia is doing to threaten the freeworld...you have to read BBC! Surprises...surprises...It sure makes you kind of wondering how much influences Russia has on our left and right media...
China built a freaking big harbor for their naval and submarine base. We can all see it from above. Then come this big article on..."Secret China submarine base" in the DrudgeReport. Secret?...
It is not the reporting of China that bothers me. It is the non-reporting on Russian threat that bother me. We are now very close to a Russia invasion of Georgia and Ukraine...unless they submit....and the world seem to have not noticed a thing there....
The Chinese satellite interceptor system has absolutely no ability to intercept our warheads...but can intercept a post boost vehicle launched from Russia or India. Did anyone report this?....No...they all make it sounds like China is threatening us....Of course China is threatening us...but their ability is still limited...it is the Russia that is now threatening the independence of Ukraine and Georgia...and the three little Baltic countries...Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. Belarus is obviously on the side of the Russian.
Beside...who sold that freaking nuclear reactor to Iran?...Hello...?...Anyone listening?....How about those centrifuges...?....
Beware of internal enemies....my friend....beware....
Have a nice day anyway...
Have you seen this huge Russian Missile?
Go here....take a look...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7383897.stm [bbc.co.uk]
"We do not threaten anyone and do not intend to do so," Putin said.
Hello, Mr.Putin....eh....how about those Russian troops that are in Georgia now and those that are stationed along the border of Ukraine?
I remember Hitler once gave a speech to his people after entered Rhineland...."We pledge that we have no territorial demands to make in Europe.".....Then he entered Sudetenland.....then it was history...
Scary...
The most scary part is that...the news media tend to ignore the Russian Georgia conflict. Those neo-con ( NewsMax, etc...including DrudgeReport, Townhall...whatever...) don't wanna talk about it. If you want to know more about what Russia is doing to threaten the freeworld...you have to read BBC! Surprises...surprises...It sure makes you kind of wondering how much influences Russia has on our left and right media...
China built a freaking big harbor for their naval and submarine base. We can all see it from above. Then come this big article on..."Secret China submarine base" in the DrudgeReport. Secret?...
It is not the reporting of China that bothers me. It is the non-reporting on Russian threat that bother me. We are now very close to a Russia invasion of Georgia and Ukraine...unless they submit....and the world seem to have not noticed a thing there....
The Chinese satellite interceptor system has absolutely no ability to intercept our warheads...but can intercept a post boost vehicle launched from Russia or India. Did anyone report this?....No...they all make it sounds like China is threatening us....Of course China is threatening us...but their ability is still limited...it is the Russia that is now threatening the independence of Ukraine and Georgia...and the three little Baltic countries...Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. Belarus is obviously on the side of the Russian.
Beside...who sold that freaking nuclear reactor to Iran?...Hello...?...Anyone listening?....How about those centrifuges...?....
Beware of internal enemies....my friend....beware....
Have a nice day anyway...
Oooohh!
Fuck You China.
It does look like some of the healthiest and fittest are prospering upon the backs upon those who have little or no choice in the matter. But then I and sure, it has nothing to do with bloated egos and massive endorsement contracts, it all about team work, good sportsmanship, a fair go for all, 'er' yeah, 'um' right, 'meh' whatever ;).
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Actually you can be in the USA legally but without a permit to work, like on a tourist visa or even certain student visa's. In which case you'd also be an undocumented worker.
That's entirely not true, my friends own a hotel there and they're Chinese by ethnicity, though they're American citizens.
The implicit condition for being chosen to host the Olympics was that China would try to act like a modern, free first world democracy at least until after the Olympics were over.
Don't have mod points, but if I did I'd give you +1 brownie points. ...and while I'm dreaming, I wish I had millions upon millions of pre-inflation dollars.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
someone didn't do a proper business risk review when they made an investment in China
They didn't investigate where their business intersected the one aspect of China that you can't bribe your way out of: saving face. Although with the amount of anti-American sentiment going around in China right now, they might be lucky simply to avoid having their hotels "liberated for the good of the people".
We are all just people.
i agree. i am not surprised at all. lets talk human rights issues with Tibet instead. - Darrin J Viccione
Darrin J Viccione