out of interest... why? From a private developer's perspective, I really don't see the difference, unless you are trying to submarine patents in OS code (unlikely)
In essence their distribution will be forked at the current level.
It will be interesting to see which fork is more vigorous. The commercially viable GPLv2 fork, or the pure-but-commercially-useless GPLv3 fork. No company (not Microsoft, not Novell, not IBM, probably not even RedHat) is going to be able to live with GPLv3.
I wonder. 2 things.
the CPL which IBM unfortunately prefers seems (at least on a casual level, I am no expert) to be GPL+patent clauses. Not that far a step to GPLv3 really. Sun has openly considered GPLv3. Microsoft has no GPL code. I doubt Red Hat would really care as long as they get the best software for their clients (helping them selling more licenses). Novell, of course, is the exception here; but if that clause is included, they sort of have a win-win with GPLv3... they have a deal nobody else can make. That can't be bad for them, ignoring community effects.
Secondly, maintaining the GPLv2 fork could be costly indeed, provided that most GPLv2 or later changes to GPLv3 (or later) for just some major projects... in no special order examples are WINE, KDE, QT, Java and Firefox, GCC, Gnome (I assume we will have a LGPLv3, too). Much easier to play along; after all, the companies you mention (except Novell) will loose precious little... mostly, they won't be able to submarine a patent in GPL code and then sue (their own) customers. I'm sure they are loosing a lot of sleep over that one;).
So, in conclusion, whether GPLv3 flies mostly depends on the developers, the project leaders and the indirectly the companies who would care to dictate what license their employees must use and who employs opensource programmers... Red Hat, Trolltech, Novell et all. Much depend on the climate at the time though... a dramatic event might swing the tables, just as the recent warm winter has made all EU go totally green:)
From what I've gathered, porting the window manager is regarded as making "little sense". I don't have anything concrete to point at though, so regard it as a rumour.
Apps in the menus fails horribly when you have too many apps. I find in KDE or gnome that, 9 times out of 10, I start apps from the command line 'cos it's easier than digging through the menu to find them.
You might consider launching those apps with Katapult or the alt-F2 (KRunner). No, I don't use the menu much either, it's mostly useful for finding some app which I don't know the name of.
It goes to the last used element in that application where the menu resides... at least with KWin. This is with click-to-focus, this being KDE, you can probably have it any way you like it. That includes that awful Mac OS menubar:)
hibernate has to restore the entire state of RAM. It doesn't matter if you had 200MB or a 3 GB of applications, it's all gotta come back in before you start running the kernel.
Actually, it is only the application areas that has to come in... disk cache on so on doesn't. I sometimes wonder if there should be a "shutdown" signal in the XSMP setup that would enable applications to dump cached data that would probably be stale anyhow when the computer is brought back on line, such the browsing cache.
'Btw, did you know that linux support more hardware than any other OS out of the box?'
That is the impression I have had but I am unaware of anyone confirming it to be a fact. I have certainly noticed that in most cases all the hardware in a system is supported, detected, and installed under linux unless it is the latest hardware. You can find various people say so. Here is one from Novell. I think they are correct; Even the BSD people say they support less hardware, and windows/solaris/mac are not even close to linux.
I remember when it was only kudzu that seemed to work well for auto-detecting hardware with other detection systems like that used in Mandrake vastly inferior. Now it doesn't really seem to matter. Pick any modern distro and click through the graphical installer and at the end of the process your hardware will be loaded.
Even Debian does this automagically. I have to explicitly blacklist my sound module to stop the darn thing from loading all the time:o)
At around KDE 3.3.x linux surpassed windows in all counts.... At KDE 3.5.x linux came abreast with MacOS, and with KDE 4.0, linux will leave the shredded hulk of Mac OS in each it's waste, with wobbly windows, the beryl cube and other slick&useless features. And useful features, but since they never seem to matter...:O) The only reason to have windows now is if you are an avid adventure gamer or CRPG gamer; other gamers would be better served by PS3/XBox/Wii.
I really have no idea. The model was using a "tribes on a plain" sort of model, but I have no other details to share. Yet, an noted evolution biologist saying that the group selection effect is low or maybe very low does carry some weight for me:)
Saving 20 people in a small tribe would probably mean saving some of his own genes, so that might be advantageous. Also, should he survive, he might have easier access to females and thus breed his "saving people" genes. But this really isn't my field:) Living in big groups is relatively recent in evolutionary terms, and probably doesn't affect the gene pool much (yet).
I think I heard once from an evolutionary biologist that computer models shows that group selection is a very weak force compared to individual gene survival. If this is true, the group survival bonus is not an explanation.
I have room for about 30 applications in my taskbar... it is vertical, remember? So it has plenty room for all windows I have opened. If push comes to shove, it will group windows, but I have yet to see that happen. It is not small... it covers about 10% of the screen size when it is up. Not that you have to use one in KDE, of course... whether you want 0, 1 or 100 panels is, of course, configurable. Empowerment is the watchword. Not sure about new users, they are getting to be a rare species indeed.
Again you have a bunch of applications cramed into a taskbar with no way to identify them.
The taskbar is Windows construct that needs to die. Maybe Expose isn't the answer but at
least I can get to just about any windows without the mouse, and with two button presses.
They are not crammed, and clearly labelled with content (like #planeshift for the IRC app) and dash - then the application name, "Konversation" in this case. Also an icon. I can get to any window with one mouse press.
The break down is wrong, as already mentioned. I hate hunting for the right window with expose, and am not a big fan of this feature, but if you want it, it is available on Linux. (Not using KWin yet, though, you will have to go to Beryl). Expose breaks down at about 16 windows, at which point the grid becomes hideously large. The taskbar could probably handle 60 with grouping, and 30 without.
Of course Linux has various copies and implmentations of what is on OS X. That's the point though I don't feel like messing with it anymore. In '95
it was alright, now I have other things to do.
Yes, as you say, linux have most of the features Mac OS X, plus a host more. I don't "mess" with those features, I just spend the 5 minutes it takes to set up the way I like it when I get a new installation.
Expose easily handles 20+ windows on my 13 inch MacBook. Plus I can instantly see what the windows are and I don't have to use a mouse to get to them.
I find the grid confusing and annoying when I got much more than 4x4. Using the mouse is of course only an option in KDE, without going into details about the many ways to not use a mouse and get to the window you want.
Again this is my main beef with KDGNOME. They simply freakin' copied Windows. I don't like working in Windows. It's anoying. WindowMaker was the high point of the Linux desktop. Fluxbox is pretty nice and has some good features. But KDEGNOME is simply a Windows interface on Linux. I don't see the point.
As you yourself pointed out, besides the features that windows offers, KDE adds some features of Mac OS X and some of it's own. I don't like Gnome much, finding it too much like a Mac OS X. But at least it is free&open. So if you don't see the point, you haven't been looking. Not that I am forcing you to, but if you don't know, and don't want to know, could you not spread wrong information about it?
Where do you drag and drop from? Drag&drop is another interface concept that I do not like much. It has some huge usability flaws, like not being discoverable.
There is nothing to discover. I drag an application from the developer supplied disk image to wherever I want it to live. That's it. None of this fourty seven different package manager crap to deal with.
This sounds very windows like. So you have to get a physical medium from the vendor? How quaint. I suppose you can download it from some developers too, if you trust them, and click to install? Sounds exactly like the windows you abhor. Myself, I prefer to have all applications nearly instantly available, without having to have anything but an internet connection. The source is trusted, and the package cryptographically signed by people I know care. It doesn't get much better than this.
This is just ridiculous. Where is the multiple desktops on windows? T
No obvious, configurable taskbar (Has to go to the right, be coverable, about 120px wide, pop to front if the
mouse hits the right lower left or I press a key).
Yep. Fundamental difference between Windows and OS X. I hate the taskbar.
Too small to represent the number of windows open at a given time or provide
useful information or features. It's slow, but I guess, easy to understand for new
users. Not really sure of the point. The fact that all Linux/BSD window managers except
WindowMaker copied this glaring flaw is lamentable.
I have room for about 30 applications in my taskbar... it is vertical, remember? So it has plenty room for all windows I have opened. If push comes to shove, it will group windows, but I have yet to see that happen. It is not small... it covers about 10% of the screen size when it is up. Not that you have to use one in KDE, of course... whether you want 0, 1 or 100 panels is, of course, configurable. Empowerment is the watchword. Not sure about new users, they are getting to be a rare species indeed.
This is nicely handled by Expose. One key-press and all applications
or windows within a single application are available and recognizable. Combined
with keyboard cycling of application groups and windows within application groups it
is easy to get where I need to go. Using 20+ windows at a time is easy. Taskbars
break down long before this point.
The break down is wrong, as already mentioned. I hate hunting for the right window with expose, and am not a big fan of this feature, but if you want it, it is available on Linux. (Not using KWin yet, though, you will have to go to Beryl). Expose breaks down at about 16 windows, at which point the grid becomes hideously large. The taskbar could probably handle 60 with grouping, and 30 without.
I need at least 4 desktops. 6 is ideal for me.
Virtual desktops are badly needed in OS X. Fortunately they will be in the
next release.
Heh. Yeah, next release.
The application menu was on the desktop. Not sure if this is configurable, but that is one horrible idea.
That means, to use a menu, you first have to activate the application, and then click the menu.
Sort of. In Windows if an application is minimized or otherwise obscured you will still have to activate or click
on it to get to the menu. Same with Gnome, KDE, fluxbox. But this is not really something worth arguing about.
Now that I'm used to it, it is quite nice especially if have a lot of windows open for a single
application, like terminals.
In KDE, you can have it either way, depending on preferences --- which is how I know I really hate this configuration. In Mac OS X, it's Apple's way or the high way. That you don't think it is worth arguing about is true... Mac OS clearly looses in on this one:)
The emphasis on icons rather than text. Icons are fine for browser buttons and decorations,
but it's the text that makes something instantanously recognisable.
I don't know what this means.
It means that the window manager should not rely on icons to convey meaning. Again, it is a personal thing, and again, KDE shines in that it gives you either or and both options.
I never did find the package manager. If I need an application, I want to bring up an app, and
search for the apps using keywords, tags or whatever. Then click to install.
Again, nonsensical. There is no need for packages because app installation removal is handled by
drag and drop. There are package management systems (fink/ports) if they are wanted/needed.
Where do you drag and drop from? Drag&drop is another interface concept that I do not like much. It has some huge usability flaws, like not being discoverable.
It's not that different in your country. In fact I'm not from the USA either, but please, tell me what country does not censor anything on TV, the press or anywhere else.
If by "country" you mean "government", Denmark is one example. We prefer to do our censorship using rabid Muslims instead. They are cheaper and more entertaining. Especially their vengeance. "We will draw your queen as a pig". Cute, are we supposed to be shocked by *that*? Not that I ever understood what Muslims have against pigs, they are quite charming creatures in their way:)
First, I do not want to use 3rd party apps on my desktop, so any solution that includes this is out. This is because I find that such apps tends to conflict in interesting ways, and the desktop is something you want steady-as-a-rock. So while some of the points below probably have 3rd-party "solutions", that won't help. Secondly, some of the below might be configurable, I never really found a centralized configuration utility... I didn't stay long. But from my experience, a quick random not-complete list of grievances:
No obvious, configurable taskbar (Has to go to the right, be coverable, about 120px wide, pop to front if the mouse hits the right lower left or I press a key).
I need at least 4 desktops. 6 is ideal for me.
The application menu was on the desktop. Not sure if this is configurable, but that is one horrible idea.That means, to use a menu, you first have to activate the application, and then click the menu.
The emphasis on icons rather than text. Icons are fine for browser buttons and decorations, but it's the text that makes something instantanously recognisable.
I never did find the package manager. If I need an application, I want to bring up an app, and search for the apps using keywords, tags or whatever. Then click to install.
Same, but upgrading all apps and libraries to the newest version.
I didn't see how to get buttons for "stay in front", "shade" and similar on the window decorations. That is of course, a must.
I didn't find an easy way to make any application fullscreen. I am pretty sure I just missed that one though, noone would make a desktop environment where this wasn't easy *somehow*.
Maybe it was an old version, but for some reason I couldn't get the background image to be an SVG. Of course, it might just have been a defective svg. Not that important, just a small thing.
I give thanks every time I return home to my Mac, after using Linux and Windows all day. I want something that works, works well, and doesn't need me to screw with some config file (Linux) or have 4 different malware programs running at all times just to have a semblance of safety (Windows)
I'm happy to hear it works for you. Not that I ever use windows, nor do I "screw" around with config files unless it takes my fancy to do so. I just find Mac OS X a very limiting desktop environment, and worse OS. It is true that everything just works, but you pay with both money, flexibility and power. Not worth the price, I find. Still, I occasionally recommend Mac OS to some people. As sort of like a Gnome, extreme edition:)
/me waits for the hordes of the OS X lovers to mod me down to oblivion:)
You must be new here. Bashing anything always gets modded up. It's positive comments that get buried.
Hmm. I can't use the new defense. But I admit I was quite wrong about being moderated into oblivion. Seems I am not quite alone in not liking Mac OS X (on a personal level, it's not like I want anyone else to stop using it if it works for you:) )
Perhaps the thing you are missing is that some of us thinks that OS X is a) horrible to use b) costly c) closed? Until those three issues are resolved, I don't see OS X on any of my desktops. Ask, and I shall explain any of those 3 grievances, and why e.g. KDE+linux (and who knows, maybe Beryl some day) does not have that flaw.
/me waits for the hordes of the OS X lovers to mod me down to oblivion:)
The price that a company like Dell gets on an OEM version of Windows XP Home is about $38. For smaller OEMs it's about $43-45. XP Pro must be around ten dollars over that (which is why I HATE IT when they charge almost $100 to upgrade, but that's hardly Microsoft's fault). Vista pushed up the OEM license prices by about three to five dollars for the XP equivalents, and possibly more for things like the Ultimate version (but probably didn't break the $55 barrier). Then add whatever margin Dell uses, and you will end up with something not completely unlike what I said, especially if you consider the prices in the respective countries.
In short, nothing that would justify twitter's claim that a PC that goes for $400 should go for $200 because of "M$" or whatever.
I agree. Maybe $349 might go for $299 or whatever. Significant, but not not 50%.
OT, I don't know what Microsoft charges for OEM licenses over there (Denmark?), but I hope it's a hell of a lot more, because the people who run the EU are a bunch of lawless protectionist sucktards that think it's double plus OK to nail Microsoft with petty demands using stupid claims of "unfair competition" by Real, who could not compete with WMP (bad as WMP is) if their life depended on it with their horrible cuasi-spyware "products" that no one in their right mind would use unless they're forced-bundled with new boxes.
Nothing personal =)
Glad you got that off your chest, then. I do believe that such laws are pretty much the same in the US.. in fact, I vaguely recall a settlement in the US. But out of interest... how can you be lawless and protectionist? Holding up ships at gunpoint and demand taxes upon arriving at a EU port?
One, you are theorizing that "M$" adds hundreds of dollars to the cost of a PC. Would you care to back that claim up for us? Do you actually claim that the $200 computer does not exist because of "M$"?
Excuse me for throwing water on that nice bonfire of a discussion;) But in this country, many biggish (that is, big in the national picture) vendors sell desktop boxes with and without windows preinstalled. The price difference is about 80 euro, or 65 euro or so before taxes. This is across multiple vendors and configuration, so I think this is a fair take on the price hit that windows occurs, at least in this country.
By that logic, moving to Linux would be the perfect move... all choices available both hardware and software. Unsatisfied with Novel support? Just move to Ubuntu. No wonder we almost exclusively see Linux in the workplace;)
The highest educated populations in the western world are the Scandinavian countries. There, motherhood, childcare, and educational professions are looked upon as great callings that have a huge influence on the future prosperity of the country. Therefore, it's easy to justify paying them well.
Eh. I live here. In Denmark. Teacher's base pay is a little above unskilled worker's, though it raises slightly more quickly. Childcare, less so. Motherhood? These are the countries of equal opportunity. At best, motherhood is regarded as a nice hobby if you don't overindulge. (Fatherhood, I'm pleased to say, is getting increased respect these days --- at this rate, it might approach the mother ditto in 30 or 40 years).
However, there is no shortage of teachers or childcarers in most regions, the exception being areas where housing prices are too high for them to live (unless they marry someone better paid, of course). But math teachers are in high demand, as is male teachers and especially child care professionals. The pay is the same, though:p
Not that I complain much about my education. Oh, it went too slowly much of the time, but that is just the way it is, I suppose.
Generics are really the important feature. Replacing "Map" with "Map<String, List<MyDetail>>" is really significant for being able to tell what the code is supposed to be doing and making it work correctly and reliably.
Of course, this depends on figuring out how all your current code actually works, which can be a major undertaking.
Yep, this is a step in the right direction. Then we just need the rest of the C++ template features, and we might be approaching something that approaches being a nice language. Like not throwing out half the types during runtime... how silly is that? Getting rid of that terrible Collection framework and replacing it with something STL like (improving the STL interface with a Range class) would be a nice bonus. Oh, and I can have a lambda function, too? And operator overloading. And ruby like setters/getters? Multiple inheritance, or at least mixins, too. And if it could actually make coffee..?
Man, Java
is just so damn LIMITING!
Yes, I love that quote. Describes so much software I dislike:D
The answer, no matter whether I spend 30 minutes in Linux or 7 days, is always the same. It's not a solution and won't be for a very very long time nor do I see it ever becoming a real solution unless considerable changes are made not only in the current state of these distros, but in what the Linux community considers a "real solution/alternative".
You don't say what you want to change, so I assume that is hot air --- I'm not psychic. But it certainly took me longer than 7 days to be reasonable productive when I first had to use windows, or linux for that matter. Just finding the command line completion character in windows (2000, it was then) took me several months, as did the short cut to paste in a console window. (It can't be changed, and it is alt-space e p... puts emacs to shame, I thought).
I won't be switching anytime soon or in the next ten years. In the 7 years that I've experimented with Linux, it's never served any purpose at a satisfactory level for me and I do everything with a PC you can possibly imagine from graphics, video, games, programming, web design, chat, email, office tasks, research, etc. Windows is an always has been better, just as stable or more stable (yes, Linux will crash on you, contrary to what everyone is led to believe - and will do so on occasion after the first 30 minutes of being installed) and this is especially true with the release of XP and now Vista.
It is true that you can crash linux, especially running the proprietary drivers. I find linux generally more stable than windows... say, maybe a crash every month instead of 2-3 days with windows. This was back in the windows 2000 days, I never tried XP (as it didn't support my hardware enough to install).
Another truth is that anyone having issues with XP or Vista, usually (almost always) lack very basic knowledge of how to use a computer -- CONTRARY to what they will CLAIM. I personally have never had more than a few problems with XP or Vista. I've used Vista since the day it was released without a single issue, except with manufacturer's lack of ability to release drivers in a more than sufficient time frame. As I said I do everything in Windows and it all works. It's always stable. [...]
I do no lack basic knowledge with a computer... go ahead, challenge me to any non-OS specific question... yet I have had severe problems with windows. Not that it was those intermittent problems that turned me away, it was that it was so "damn limiting" to paraphrase a colorful character.
It works. It does the job. It does it well. It's not ugly like every distro of Linux. It's not very hindering in day to day activities and it works for me.
Ugly... I don't see that from here (using Beryl/aqaumarine, but nor did I when I was using KWin). Breathtakingly beautiful at times, especially the water effects, maybe. Windows lacks some tools (2 random examples that always spring to mind: valgrind, bash, oprofile. Yes that was a M.P. reference, I can't help it).
If it doesn't work for you, your problem isn't your operating system, it's you.
And that is an outright lie. You can use windows, and I won't say you are a fool, especially if it works for you... (my distant cousing who just ditched windows after losing his homework to a virus didn't like windows much at the time)... but saying that so many people who have ditched windows are just bad people are a bit over the line, don't you think?
Don't bet too hard. My last computer can't install windows XP. Doesn't recognize the hard drives. I am told that the drivers can be slipstreamed, which is a quite complicated process judging from the docs, or I could buy a disk drive for the sole purpose of installing windows, and move the drivers there using linux. But I only used it for a few games, and very seldom at that. So now I just play atitd:)
I really, really dislike Java, but nevertheless: Debian unstable has Sun's Java in it's repositories; I know since I have to use that mess too often at work. Not sure what the "default" install is, but I'm sure it will hit Debian stable in 5 or 6 years;)
Slashdot Mirror
out of interest... why? From a private developer's perspective, I really don't see the difference, unless you are trying to submarine patents in OS code (unlikely)
It will be interesting to see which fork is more vigorous. The commercially viable GPLv2 fork, or the pure-but-commercially-useless GPLv3 fork. No company (not Microsoft, not Novell, not IBM, probably not even RedHat) is going to be able to live with GPLv3.
I wonder. 2 things.
the CPL which IBM unfortunately prefers seems (at least on a casual level, I am no expert) to be GPL+patent clauses. Not that far a step to GPLv3 really. Sun has openly considered GPLv3. Microsoft has no GPL code. I doubt Red Hat would really care as long as they get the best software for their clients (helping them selling more licenses). Novell, of course, is the exception here; but if that clause is included, they sort of have a win-win with GPLv3... they have a deal nobody else can make. That can't be bad for them, ignoring community effects.
Secondly, maintaining the GPLv2 fork could be costly indeed, provided that most GPLv2 or later changes to GPLv3 (or later) for just some major projects... in no special order examples are WINE, KDE, QT, Java and Firefox, GCC, Gnome (I assume we will have a LGPLv3, too). Much easier to play along; after all, the companies you mention (except Novell) will loose precious little... mostly, they won't be able to submarine a patent in GPL code and then sue (their own) customers. I'm sure they are loosing a lot of sleep over that one ;).
So, in conclusion, whether GPLv3 flies mostly depends on the developers, the project leaders and the indirectly the companies who would care to dictate what license their employees must use and who employs opensource programmers... Red Hat, Trolltech, Novell et all. Much depend on the climate at the time though... a dramatic event might swing the tables, just as the recent warm winter has made all EU go totally green :)
From what I've gathered, porting the window manager is regarded as making "little sense". I don't have anything concrete to point at though, so regard it as a rumour.
Plays just fine here, using no illegal software, hoops or anything else. Was installed by default, I believe.
Of course, I have no doubt that the software is illegal somewhere, but then, what isn't?
You might consider launching those apps with Katapult or the alt-F2 (KRunner). No, I don't use the menu much either, it's mostly useful for finding some app which I don't know the name of.
It goes to the last used element in that application where the menu resides... at least with KWin. This is with click-to-focus, this being KDE, you can probably have it any way you like it. That includes that awful Mac OS menubar :)
Actually, it is only the application areas that has to come in... disk cache on so on doesn't. I sometimes wonder if there should be a "shutdown" signal in the XSMP setup that would enable applications to dump cached data that would probably be stale anyhow when the computer is brought back on line, such the browsing cache.
That is the impression I have had but I am unaware of anyone confirming it to be a fact. I have certainly noticed that in most cases all the hardware in a system is supported, detected, and installed under linux unless it is the latest hardware. You can find various people say so. Here is one from Novell. I think they are correct; Even the BSD people say they support less hardware, and windows/solaris/mac are not even close to linux.
I remember when it was only kudzu that seemed to work well for auto-detecting hardware with other detection systems like that used in Mandrake vastly inferior. Now it doesn't really seem to matter. Pick any modern distro and click through the graphical installer and at the end of the process your hardware will be loaded.
Even Debian does this automagically. I have to explicitly blacklist my sound module to stop the darn thing from loading all the time :o)
At around KDE 3.3.x linux surpassed windows in all counts.... At KDE 3.5.x linux came abreast with MacOS, and with KDE 4.0, linux will leave the shredded hulk of Mac OS in each it's waste, with wobbly windows, the beryl cube and other slick&useless features. And useful features, but since they never seem to matter... :O) The only reason to have windows now is if you are an avid adventure gamer or CRPG gamer; other gamers would be better served by PS3/XBox/Wii.
All of this is in my humble opinion, of course. :)
Probably the ones who takes stability over 3D acceleration. Remember, your kernel is unsupported with those nvidia/fglrx drivers loaded.
Of course, if you want 3D, the drivers are necessary for all nvidia and all newer ATI (after 9x00?)
Btw, did you know that linux support more hardware than any other OS out of the box? :)
I really have no idea. The model was using a "tribes on a plain" sort of model, but I have no other details to share. Yet, an noted evolution biologist saying that the group selection effect is low or maybe very low does carry some weight for me :)
Saving 20 people in a small tribe would probably mean saving some of his own genes, so that might be advantageous. Also, should he survive, he might have easier access to females and thus breed his "saving people" genes. But this really isn't my field :) Living in big groups is relatively recent in evolutionary terms, and probably doesn't affect the gene pool much (yet).
I think I heard once from an evolutionary biologist that computer models shows that group selection is a very weak force compared to individual gene survival. If this is true, the group survival bonus is not an explanation.
I have room for about 30 applications in my taskbar... it is vertical, remember? So it has plenty room for all windows I have opened. If push comes to shove, it will group windows, but I have yet to see that happen. It is not small... it covers about 10% of the screen size when it is up. Not that you have to use one in KDE, of course... whether you want 0, 1 or 100 panels is, of course, configurable. Empowerment is the watchword. Not sure about new users, they are getting to be a rare species indeed.
Again you have a bunch of applications cramed into a taskbar with no way to identify them. The taskbar is Windows construct that needs to die. Maybe Expose isn't the answer but at least I can get to just about any windows without the mouse, and with two button presses.
They are not crammed, and clearly labelled with content (like #planeshift for the IRC app) and dash - then the application name, "Konversation" in this case. Also an icon. I can get to any window with one mouse press.
The break down is wrong, as already mentioned. I hate hunting for the right window with expose, and am not a big fan of this feature, but if you want it, it is available on Linux. (Not using KWin yet, though, you will have to go to Beryl). Expose breaks down at about 16 windows, at which point the grid becomes hideously large. The taskbar could probably handle 60 with grouping, and 30 without.
Of course Linux has various copies and implmentations of what is on OS X. That's the point though I don't feel like messing with it anymore. In '95 it was alright, now I have other things to do.
Yes, as you say, linux have most of the features Mac OS X, plus a host more. I don't "mess" with those features, I just spend the 5 minutes it takes to set up the way I like it when I get a new installation.
Expose easily handles 20+ windows on my 13 inch MacBook. Plus I can instantly see what the windows are and I don't have to use a mouse to get to them.
I find the grid confusing and annoying when I got much more than 4x4. Using the mouse is of course only an option in KDE, without going into details about the many ways to not use a mouse and get to the window you want.
Again this is my main beef with KDGNOME. They simply freakin' copied Windows. I don't like working in Windows. It's anoying. WindowMaker was the high point of the Linux desktop. Fluxbox is pretty nice and has some good features. But KDEGNOME is simply a Windows interface on Linux. I don't see the point.
As you yourself pointed out, besides the features that windows offers, KDE adds some features of Mac OS X and some of it's own. I don't like Gnome much, finding it too much like a Mac OS X. But at least it is free&open. So if you don't see the point, you haven't been looking. Not that I am forcing you to, but if you don't know, and don't want to know, could you not spread wrong information about it?
Where do you drag and drop from? Drag&drop is another interface concept that I do not like much. It has some huge usability flaws, like not being discoverable.
There is nothing to discover. I drag an application from the developer supplied disk image to wherever I want it to live. That's it. None of this fourty seven different package manager crap to deal with.
This sounds very windows like. So you have to get a physical medium from the vendor? How quaint. I suppose you can download it from some developers too, if you trust them, and click to install? Sounds exactly like the windows you abhor. Myself, I prefer to have all applications nearly instantly available, without having to have anything but an internet connection. The source is trusted, and the package cryptographically signed by people I know care. It doesn't get much better than this.
This is just ridiculous. Where is the multiple desktops on windows? T
No obvious, configurable taskbar (Has to go to the right, be coverable, about 120px wide, pop to front if the mouse hits the right lower left or I press a key).
Yep. Fundamental difference between Windows and OS X. I hate the taskbar. Too small to represent the number of windows open at a given time or provide useful information or features. It's slow, but I guess, easy to understand for new users. Not really sure of the point. The fact that all Linux/BSD window managers except WindowMaker copied this glaring flaw is lamentable.
I have room for about 30 applications in my taskbar... it is vertical, remember? So it has plenty room for all windows I have opened. If push comes to shove, it will group windows, but I have yet to see that happen. It is not small... it covers about 10% of the screen size when it is up. Not that you have to use one in KDE, of course... whether you want 0, 1 or 100 panels is, of course, configurable. Empowerment is the watchword. Not sure about new users, they are getting to be a rare species indeed.
This is nicely handled by Expose. One key-press and all applications or windows within a single application are available and recognizable. Combined with keyboard cycling of application groups and windows within application groups it is easy to get where I need to go. Using 20+ windows at a time is easy. Taskbars break down long before this point.
The break down is wrong, as already mentioned. I hate hunting for the right window with expose, and am not a big fan of this feature, but if you want it, it is available on Linux. (Not using KWin yet, though, you will have to go to Beryl). Expose breaks down at about 16 windows, at which point the grid becomes hideously large. The taskbar could probably handle 60 with grouping, and 30 without.
I need at least 4 desktops. 6 is ideal for me.
Virtual desktops are badly needed in OS X. Fortunately they will be in the next release.
Heh. Yeah, next release.
The application menu was on the desktop. Not sure if this is configurable, but that is one horrible idea. That means, to use a menu, you first have to activate the application, and then click the menu.
Sort of. In Windows if an application is minimized or otherwise obscured you will still have to activate or click on it to get to the menu. Same with Gnome, KDE, fluxbox. But this is not really something worth arguing about. Now that I'm used to it, it is quite nice especially if have a lot of windows open for a single application, like terminals.
In KDE, you can have it either way, depending on preferences --- which is how I know I really hate this configuration. In Mac OS X, it's Apple's way or the high way. That you don't think it is worth arguing about is true... Mac OS clearly looses in on this one :)
The emphasis on icons rather than text. Icons are fine for browser buttons and decorations, but it's the text that makes something instantanously recognisable.
I don't know what this means.
It means that the window manager should not rely on icons to convey meaning. Again, it is a personal thing, and again, KDE shines in that it gives you either or and both options.
I never did find the package manager. If I need an application, I want to bring up an app, and search for the apps using keywords, tags or whatever. Then click to install.
Again, nonsensical. There is no need for packages because app installation removal is handled by drag and drop. There are package management systems (fink/ports) if they are wanted/needed.
Where do you drag and drop from? Drag&drop is another interface concept that I do not like much. It has some huge usability flaws, like not being discoverable.
I didn't see how to get buttons for "s
If by "country" you mean "government", Denmark is one example. We prefer to do our censorship using rabid Muslims instead. They are cheaper and more entertaining. Especially their vengeance. "We will draw your queen as a pig". Cute, are we supposed to be shocked by *that*? Not that I ever understood what Muslims have against pigs, they are quite charming creatures in their way :)
First, I do not want to use 3rd party apps on my desktop, so any solution that includes this is out. This is because I find that such apps tends to conflict in interesting ways, and the desktop is something you want steady-as-a-rock. So while some of the points below probably have 3rd-party "solutions", that won't help. Secondly, some of the below might be configurable, I never really found a centralized configuration utility... I didn't stay long. But from my experience, a quick random not-complete list of grievances:
No obvious, configurable taskbar (Has to go to the right, be coverable, about 120px wide, pop to front if the mouse hits the right lower left or I press a key).
I need at least 4 desktops. 6 is ideal for me.
The application menu was on the desktop. Not sure if this is configurable, but that is one horrible idea.That means, to use a menu, you first have to activate the application, and then click the menu.
The emphasis on icons rather than text. Icons are fine for browser buttons and decorations, but it's the text that makes something instantanously recognisable.
I never did find the package manager. If I need an application, I want to bring up an app, and search for the apps using keywords, tags or whatever. Then click to install.
Same, but upgrading all apps and libraries to the newest version.
I didn't see how to get buttons for "stay in front", "shade" and similar on the window decorations. That is of course, a must.
I didn't find an easy way to make any application fullscreen. I am pretty sure I just missed that one though, noone would make a desktop environment where this wasn't easy *somehow*.
Maybe it was an old version, but for some reason I couldn't get the background image to be an SVG. Of course, it might just have been a defective svg. Not that important, just a small thing.
I give thanks every time I return home to my Mac, after using Linux and Windows all day. I want something that works, works well, and doesn't need me to screw with some config file (Linux) or have 4 different malware programs running at all times just to have a semblance of safety (Windows)I'm happy to hear it works for you. Not that I ever use windows, nor do I "screw" around with config files unless it takes my fancy to do so. I just find Mac OS X a very limiting desktop environment, and worse OS. It is true that everything just works, but you pay with both money, flexibility and power. Not worth the price, I find. Still, I occasionally recommend Mac OS to some people. As sort of like a Gnome, extreme edition :)
You must be new here. Bashing anything always gets modded up. It's positive comments that get buried.
Hmm. I can't use the new defense. But I admit I was quite wrong about being moderated into oblivion. Seems I am not quite alone in not liking Mac OS X (on a personal level, it's not like I want anyone else to stop using it if it works for you :) )
Perhaps the thing you are missing is that some of us thinks that OS X is a) horrible to use b) costly c) closed? Until those three issues are resolved, I don't see OS X on any of my desktops. Ask, and I shall explain any of those 3 grievances, and why e.g. KDE+linux (and who knows, maybe Beryl some day) does not have that flaw.
/me waits for the hordes of the OS X lovers to mod me down to oblivion :)
In short, nothing that would justify twitter's claim that a PC that goes for $400 should go for $200 because of "M$" or whatever.
I agree. Maybe $349 might go for $299 or whatever. Significant, but not not 50%.
OT, I don't know what Microsoft charges for OEM licenses over there (Denmark?), but I hope it's a hell of a lot more, because the people who run the EU are a bunch of lawless protectionist sucktards that think it's double plus OK to nail Microsoft with petty demands using stupid claims of "unfair competition" by Real, who could not compete with WMP (bad as WMP is) if their life depended on it with their horrible cuasi-spyware "products" that no one in their right mind would use unless they're forced-bundled with new boxes.
Nothing personal =)
Glad you got that off your chest, then. I do believe that such laws are pretty much the same in the US.. in fact, I vaguely recall a settlement in the US. But out of interest... how can you be lawless and protectionist? Holding up ships at gunpoint and demand taxes upon arriving at a EU port?
Excuse me for throwing water on that nice bonfire of a discussion ;) But in this country, many biggish (that is, big in the national picture) vendors sell desktop boxes with and without windows preinstalled. The price difference is about 80 euro, or 65 euro or so before taxes. This is across multiple vendors and configuration, so I think this is a fair take on the price hit that windows occurs, at least in this country.
By that logic, moving to Linux would be the perfect move... all choices available both hardware and software. Unsatisfied with Novel support? Just move to Ubuntu. No wonder we almost exclusively see Linux in the workplace ;)
The highest educated populations in the western world are the Scandinavian countries. There, motherhood, childcare, and educational professions are looked upon as great callings that have a huge influence on the future prosperity of the country. Therefore, it's easy to justify paying them well.
Eh. I live here. In Denmark. Teacher's base pay is a little above unskilled worker's, though it raises slightly more quickly. Childcare, less so. Motherhood? These are the countries of equal opportunity. At best, motherhood is regarded as a nice hobby if you don't overindulge. (Fatherhood, I'm pleased to say, is getting increased respect these days --- at this rate, it might approach the mother ditto in 30 or 40 years).
However, there is no shortage of teachers or childcarers in most regions, the exception being areas where housing prices are too high for them to live (unless they marry someone better paid, of course). But math teachers are in high demand, as is male teachers and especially child care professionals. The pay is the same, though :p
Not that I complain much about my education. Oh, it went too slowly much of the time, but that is just the way it is, I suppose.
Of course, this depends on figuring out how all your current code actually works, which can be a major undertaking.
Yep, this is a step in the right direction. Then we just need the rest of the C++ template features, and we might be approaching something that approaches being a nice language. Like not throwing out half the types during runtime... how silly is that? Getting rid of that terrible Collection framework and replacing it with something STL like (improving the STL interface with a Range class) would be a nice bonus. Oh, and I can have a lambda function, too? And operator overloading. And ruby like setters/getters? Multiple inheritance, or at least mixins, too. And if it could actually make coffee..?
Man, Java
is just so damn LIMITING!Yes, I love that quote. Describes so much software I dislike :D
You don't say what you want to change, so I assume that is hot air --- I'm not psychic. But it certainly took me longer than 7 days to be reasonable productive when I first had to use windows, or linux for that matter. Just finding the command line completion character in windows (2000, it was then) took me several months, as did the short cut to paste in a console window. (It can't be changed, and it is alt-space e p... puts emacs to shame, I thought).
I won't be switching anytime soon or in the next ten years. In the 7 years that I've experimented with Linux, it's never served any purpose at a satisfactory level for me and I do everything with a PC you can possibly imagine from graphics, video, games, programming, web design, chat, email, office tasks, research, etc. Windows is an always has been better, just as stable or more stable (yes, Linux will crash on you, contrary to what everyone is led to believe - and will do so on occasion after the first 30 minutes of being installed) and this is especially true with the release of XP and now Vista.It is true that you can crash linux, especially running the proprietary drivers. I find linux generally more stable than windows... say, maybe a crash every month instead of 2-3 days with windows. This was back in the windows 2000 days, I never tried XP (as it didn't support my hardware enough to install).
Another truth is that anyone having issues with XP or Vista, usually (almost always) lack very basic knowledge of how to use a computer -- CONTRARY to what they will CLAIM. I personally have never had more than a few problems with XP or Vista. I've used Vista since the day it was released without a single issue, except with manufacturer's lack of ability to release drivers in a more than sufficient time frame. As I said I do everything in Windows and it all works. It's always stable. [...]I do no lack basic knowledge with a computer... go ahead, challenge me to any non-OS specific question... yet I have had severe problems with windows. Not that it was those intermittent problems that turned me away, it was that it was so "damn limiting" to paraphrase a colorful character.
It works. It does the job. It does it well. It's not ugly like every distro of Linux. It's not very hindering in day to day activities and it works for me.Ugly... I don't see that from here (using Beryl/aqaumarine, but nor did I when I was using KWin). Breathtakingly beautiful at times, especially the water effects, maybe. Windows lacks some tools (2 random examples that always spring to mind: valgrind, bash, oprofile. Yes that was a M.P. reference, I can't help it).
If it doesn't work for you, your problem isn't your operating system, it's you.And that is an outright lie. You can use windows, and I won't say you are a fool, especially if it works for you... (my distant cousing who just ditched windows after losing his homework to a virus didn't like windows much at the time)... but saying that so many people who have ditched windows are just bad people are a bit over the line, don't you think?
Don't bet too hard. My last computer can't install windows XP. Doesn't recognize the hard drives. I am told that the drivers can be slipstreamed, which is a quite complicated process judging from the docs, or I could buy a disk drive for the sole purpose of installing windows, and move the drivers there using linux. But I only used it for a few games, and very seldom at that. So now I just play atitd :)
I really, really dislike Java, but nevertheless: Debian unstable has Sun's Java in it's repositories; I know since I have to use that mess too often at work. Not sure what the "default" install is, but I'm sure it will hit Debian stable in 5 or 6 years ;)