I'll go along with that. Kernel configuration/build/install on FreeBSD is so non-intimidating compared to the Linux process. The kernel has grown quite a bit since the 4.x days; and I miss the old thorough LINT. It's still not an eternal drudge like answering a bzillion text-based questions or running a gui-based menu config process.
I think FreeBSD's popularity suffers from very subtle causes.
1) FreeBSD users are not evangelistic. They are happy but don't feel the need to proselytize. 2) Linux kind of got a jump-start as an alternative OS way back when BSD was in court with AT&T. 3) FreeBSD's name isn't all that catchy. It sounds like cussing. Linux has a cool-sounding name. That may sound trite; but how many of us have ever been in a conversation about operating systems. One guy says he likes Linux. Everybody nods. Somebody says, "How do you like it? My brother runs Linux and he really likes it." You say you run xxxBSD and you get glassy-eyed stares. Maybe a cricket chirps nearby. Somebody says, "What's that?"
Some of what you say I find interesting - implying
that the Gentoo community is more active than the FBSD
group. I know you didn't actually say that; and maybe
you didn't even imply as much; so you diserve the
benefit of the doubt.
There is not a free OS that "just works" with
everything I want to do. There are many things that
need a little customizing. If you are willing to
source-level tweak Gentoo you should be able to get
what you want done accomplished with FreeBSD.
I used Gentoo for a while - a year ago - for a couple
months. Here's what I liked:
The Linux Alsa audio system is pretty nice and works
with more audio equipment than you'll find working on
FreeBSD.
Portage is almost as nice and the FreeBSD ports
system.
More ported applications.
More current ports.
Here's what I didn't like:
The ports that attracted me to Linux (because they
are not ported to FreeBSD) are often unstable. For
example: I was attracted to the music composer
applications Brahms and Rosegarden-4. Both programs
constantly core-dumped on me. I couldn't get anything
accomplished. So far, a nice music composing
application doesn't seem to exist for 'nix. I'd be
willing to pay for a good one that doesn't require
winD'OH!s.
Console-land isn't nearly as elegant as is on
FreeBSD.
I never could get the hang of runlevels... but that's
just me (grin).
I'd like to comment on two other ways (besides OpenSSH) that I am going to benefit from OpenBSD - even though I do not directly use OpenBSD.
I have two computers - each running FreeBSD. One has an nVidia ethernet device that runs klunk-ily. It times out a lot and generally lags in its response time. The other has a cheap Realtek card that behaves the same way - although when it times out it never recovers - even if I unload and reload the driver module.
FreeBSD beat OpenBSD to the development of these drivers; but when OpenBSD had them ready for release (i.e., they were sufficiently proud of the result) they produced better code and (probably) tighter performance.
I fully expect the superior code for these devices to find its way into FreeBSD very shortly.
Notice the comment in the FreeBSD version that the driver is linked to the nVidia proprietary driver:...
* In accordance with the NVIDIA distribution license it is necessary to
* link this module against the nvlibnet.o binary object included in the
* Linux driver source distribution. The binary component is not modified in
* any way and is simply linked against a FreeBSD equivalent of the nvnet.c
* linux kernel module "wrapper".... The OpenBSD version is self-contained and open... obviously a far more desireable approach.
The comments in the FreeBSD version of the RealTek driver: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/s rc/sys/pci/if_rl.c?rev=1.145.2.4&content-type=text /plain...betray obvious programmer frustration:
* The RealTek 8139 PCI NIC redefines the meaning of 'low end.' This is
* probably the worst PCI ethernet controller ever made,...... and...
* You know there's something wrong with a PCI bus-master chip design
* when you have to use m_devget().
* Default to using PIO access for this driver. On SMP systems,
* there appear to be problems with memory mapped mode: it looks like
* doing too many memory mapped access back to back in rapid succession
* can hang the bus. I'm inclined to blame this on crummy design/construction
* on the part of RealTek.
I'd say you can support OpenSSH by supporting any of the BSDs. I may be wrong about that; but I have found code improvements migrate around the BSDs very efficiently.
I have benefitted personally so much from FreeBSD that I have started contributing to that cause.
I am very grateful to Theo for his work on OpenSSH but I have never really appreciated OpenBSD.
I hate to sound cold; but if OpenBSD folded, work would continue on SSH and other projects.
Slashdot Mirror
I'll go along with that.
Kernel configuration/build/install on FreeBSD is so non-intimidating compared to the Linux process.
The kernel has grown quite a bit since the 4.x days; and I miss the old thorough LINT. It's still not an eternal drudge like answering a bzillion text-based questions or running a gui-based menu config process.
I think FreeBSD's popularity suffers from very subtle causes.
1) FreeBSD users are not evangelistic. They are happy but don't feel the need to proselytize.
2) Linux kind of got a jump-start as an alternative OS way back when BSD was in court with AT&T.
3) FreeBSD's name isn't all that catchy. It sounds like cussing. Linux has a cool-sounding name. That may sound trite; but how many of us have ever been in a conversation about operating systems. One guy says he likes Linux. Everybody nods. Somebody says, "How do you like it? My brother runs Linux and he really likes it." You say you run xxxBSD and you get glassy-eyed stares. Maybe a cricket chirps nearby. Somebody says, "What's that?"
Some of what you say I find interesting - implying that the Gentoo community is more active than the FBSD group. I know you didn't actually say that; and maybe you didn't even imply as much; so you diserve the benefit of the doubt.
Anyway, I have never seen documentation as thorough (although still somewhat incomplete) as:h andbook/index.html
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/
The mailing lists are really helpful:
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo
And there is usually very good help to be found at usenet:b sd.misc?hl=en
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.unix.bsd.free
There is not a free OS that "just works" with everything I want to do. There are many things that need a little customizing. If you are willing to source-level tweak Gentoo you should be able to get what you want done accomplished with FreeBSD.
I used Gentoo for a while - a year ago - for a couple months. Here's what I liked:
- The Linux Alsa audio system is pretty nice and works
with more audio equipment than you'll find working on
FreeBSD.
- Portage is almost as nice and the FreeBSD ports
system.
- More ported applications.
- More current ports.
Here's what I didn't like:I'd like to comment on two other ways (besides OpenSSH) that I am going to benefit from OpenBSD - even though I do not directly use OpenBSD.
s rc/sys/dev/pci/if_nfe.c?rev=1.53&content-type=text /plains rc/sys/dev/nve/if_nve.c?rev=1.7.2.8&content-type=t ext/plain
... ...
s rc/sys/pci/if_rl.c?rev=1.145.2.4&content-type=text /plain ...betray obvious programmer frustration: ... and ...
s rc/sys/dev/pci/if_rl_pci.c?rev=1.12&content-type=t ext/plain
I have two computers - each running FreeBSD. One has an nVidia ethernet device that runs klunk-ily. It times out a lot and generally lags in its response time. The other has a cheap Realtek card that behaves the same way - although when it times out it never recovers - even if I unload and reload the driver module.
FreeBSD beat OpenBSD to the development of these drivers; but when OpenBSD had them ready for release (i.e., they were sufficiently proud of the result) they produced better code and (probably) tighter performance.
I fully expect the superior code for these devices to find its way into FreeBSD very shortly.
The OpenBSD nVidia code is here:
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/~checkout~/
and the FreeBSD version is here:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/
Notice the comment in the FreeBSD version that the driver is linked to the nVidia proprietary driver:
* In accordance with the NVIDIA distribution license it is necessary to
* link this module against the nvlibnet.o binary object included in the
* Linux driver source distribution. The binary component is not modified in
* any way and is simply linked against a FreeBSD equivalent of the nvnet.c
* linux kernel module "wrapper".
The OpenBSD version is self-contained and open... obviously a far more desireable approach.
The comments in the FreeBSD version of the RealTek driver:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/
* The RealTek 8139 PCI NIC redefines the meaning of 'low end.' This is
* probably the worst PCI ethernet controller ever made,...
* You know there's something wrong with a PCI bus-master chip design
* when you have to use m_devget().
It's still nice looking code.
The OpenBSD device driver:
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/~checkout~/
is real tight. The programmer agrees with the FreeBSD device programmer but he makes no excuses.
* Default to using PIO access for this driver. On SMP systems,
* there appear to be problems with memory mapped mode: it looks like
* doing too many memory mapped access back to back in rapid succession
* can hang the bus. I'm inclined to blame this on crummy design/construction
* on the part of RealTek.
I'd say you can support OpenSSH by supporting any of the BSDs. I may be wrong about that; but I have found code improvements migrate around the BSDs very efficiently. I have benefitted personally so much from FreeBSD that I have started contributing to that cause. I am very grateful to Theo for his work on OpenSSH but I have never really appreciated OpenBSD. I hate to sound cold; but if OpenBSD folded, work would continue on SSH and other projects.
"Insightful"? Funny, maybe. Insightful?
Dude. These are not all that "work safe." ... at least not in *this* office.
He also said that BASH and TCSH are befaults in FreeBSD. 'Frade not.