BTW, Metroid Prime wasn't really an FPS; it was more of a first-person console adventure. And anyone who thinks that Halo was deep obviously hasn't played too many FPSes this year.
Well, the idea is that there's supposed to be a reason you're doing the puzzles beyond "so I can go to the next level." In Leisure Suit Larry, for example, you're doing the puzzles in order to get money, condoms, etc. so you can have sex. In Sokoban, on the other hand, there's no real reason why you're putting the boxes into their places besides "the game told me to."
Of course, this idea of what a computer adventure is has broken down since the blockbuster coming of Myst; now they're more like glorified puzzle games than ever.
I think he's referring to the evil console bastardization of it. Meanwhile, the former members of Black Isle Studios are huddling around a fire in a barrel somewhere. Merry Christmas, guys.
I'm not sure how you can describe Black and White and SimCity as abstract. They're both fairly straightforward; SimCity is especially concrete, though much more simplistic than real city-building would be. Tetris, on the other hand, is one of the most abstract games I can think of.
I don't care about Twin Snakes. Strike #1: It's for Gamecube. Strike #2: It has only one addition I really wanted to see. Strike #3: I've already seen it.
I'm looking forward to MGS3, though. I actually hope it's a remake of one of the Metal Gear games. A remake of Metal Gear 2 for the American audience would be awesome.
Your assertion that there is no difference between console games and PC games as regards story presentation, strategy, depth, etc. is false. The limited control scheme of consoles is in fact a major reason why this difference still exists even though consoles are otherwise just as powerful as PCs are today. The Scratchware Manifesto describes the problem thusly:
Death to Sony, Sega, and Nintendo! Your insistence on controlling every step of development, of ensuring that no product strays too far from your own blinkered twitch-game aesthetic, your absurdly high platform royalties, your gouging prices for development stations and SDKs, your boxes with the controllers wholly unsuited to a game of any depth make you irrelevant to anyone who wants to develop games of enduring merit.
BTW, console FPSes are indeed inferior to PC FPSes because of the default control scheme, just like how most fighting games on the PC suck because of the PC's default control scheme.
I'm glad Rockstar has this much respect for its gamers. They actually seem to realize that if they lose sales due to people's preference of their old games over their new ones, then it's a problem with the new games, not with the "cheap" people who don't want to play them.
Rob (Of course, I don't think Rockstar is in any danger of slipping into a creative slump, but still)
Computer adventures and console adventures are really parts of two different genres; why the moniker "adventure" was given to both types is hard to say. This is unlike RPGs, where the differences between console and PC are merely stylistic.
A computer adventure is a game that has little to no reflex-intensive gameplay to speak of; instead, it relies on puzzles. However, computer adventures are not puzzle games, because the puzzles are suspended within a story that progresses as you play, and those puzzles make sense within the story. (This is why I think Myst ruined the computer adventure genre; it barely has any justification to be in that genre in the first place.) Another criterion is the presence of an inventory system, which makes the puzzles of a much different flavor from those found in traditional puzzle games.
Console adventures are basically console RPGs without complex stats that can be upgraded in an undefined way. For instance, in Final Fantasy one can choose to go up to Level 99 at the beginning of the game (if he is really bored) or choose to beat the game at a very low level. In Zelda, on the other hand, stat gains (in the form of heart containers, in this case) come in a very rigid manner; you have to take the stat gain when the programmers decide to give it to you. The attack and defense stats in Zelda are also very coarse (get a certain sword and you get a 50% increase in attack, for example), while in Final Fantasy, they are much more subtle and in-depth. Console adventures also don't have experience systems, a very important difference between them and RPGs.
In that case, we can't use classifications for anything, since there will always be someone who disputes the accuracy of said classification.
It's not just the adventure genre that's difficult to classify. RPGs are quite difficult to categorize as well. And then you have games like GTA3 which fuse several genres together.
Anyway, a good first-approximation definition for "adventure" (at least in the PC sense) was given in an earlier post: An RPG which has no character building. It's slightly more complicated than that (and of course begs the question, "What is an RPG?") but it's a good rule of thumb.
Well, first of all, I never play MP (I don't find it the least bit interesting, especially considering the 14-year-olds that normally play online), so that's entirely irrelevant for me.
As for the singleplayer, well... if you ever played Privateer, Freelancer's spiritual predecessor, you'd understand. Freelancer, being a new game, should've had much, much more freedom and nonlinearity than that game had while still managing to give us an interesting universe that changes depending on one's actions. Instead, it was actually much less nonlinear and interesting than Privateer was.
To date, my favorite Elite-style space sim is still Tachyon: The Fringe. If you liked Freelancer's SP, you should definitely give it a try.
It's sad that Will Wright actually made good games once upon a time, but his most resounding success is a Tamagotchi clone that has been outsold only by the lifeless, pointless game that singlehandedly ruined the computer adventure genre (Myst).
I thought only people who had IQs below 80 and/or retrograde amnesia could possibly be disappointed by a Tomb Raider game in the year 2003. Freelancer would've been a much more appropriate nominee.
Slashdot Mirror
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
BTW, Metroid Prime wasn't really an FPS; it was more of a first-person console adventure. And anyone who thinks that Halo was deep obviously hasn't played too many FPSes this year.
Rob
Well, the idea is that there's supposed to be a reason you're doing the puzzles beyond "so I can go to the next level." In Leisure Suit Larry, for example, you're doing the puzzles in order to get money, condoms, etc. so you can have sex. In Sokoban, on the other hand, there's no real reason why you're putting the boxes into their places besides "the game told me to."
Of course, this idea of what a computer adventure is has broken down since the blockbuster coming of Myst; now they're more like glorified puzzle games than ever.
Rob
Just not a very good RPG. I feel really sorry for those guys who spent $50 on an oversimplified version of Nethack.
Rob
I think he's referring to the evil console bastardization of it. Meanwhile, the former members of Black Isle Studios are huddling around a fire in a barrel somewhere. Merry Christmas, guys.
Rob (Why, Interplay, why?)
I like Rez and other abstract games, but that doesn't make cel-shading any good. Especially in Wind Waker, yuck. I can't wait for that fad to go away.
Rob
I'm not sure how you can describe Black and White and SimCity as abstract. They're both fairly straightforward; SimCity is especially concrete, though much more simplistic than real city-building would be. Tetris, on the other hand, is one of the most abstract games I can think of.
BTW, that professor's theory is bunk.
Rob
I don't care about Twin Snakes. Strike #1: It's for Gamecube. Strike #2: It has only one addition I really wanted to see. Strike #3: I've already seen it.
I'm looking forward to MGS3, though. I actually hope it's a remake of one of the Metal Gear games. A remake of Metal Gear 2 for the American audience would be awesome.
Rob
Your assertion that there is no difference between console games and PC games as regards story presentation, strategy, depth, etc. is false. The limited control scheme of consoles is in fact a major reason why this difference still exists even though consoles are otherwise just as powerful as PCs are today. The Scratchware Manifesto describes the problem thusly:
Death to Sony, Sega, and Nintendo! Your insistence on controlling every step of development, of ensuring that no product strays too far from your own blinkered twitch-game aesthetic, your absurdly high platform royalties, your gouging prices for development stations and SDKs, your boxes with the controllers wholly unsuited to a game of any depth make you irrelevant to anyone who wants to develop games of enduring merit.
BTW, console FPSes are indeed inferior to PC FPSes because of the default control scheme, just like how most fighting games on the PC suck because of the PC's default control scheme.
Rob
I'm glad Rockstar has this much respect for its gamers. They actually seem to realize that if they lose sales due to people's preference of their old games over their new ones, then it's a problem with the new games, not with the "cheap" people who don't want to play them.
Rob (Of course, I don't think Rockstar is in any danger of slipping into a creative slump, but still)
Computer adventures and console adventures are really parts of two different genres; why the moniker "adventure" was given to both types is hard to say. This is unlike RPGs, where the differences between console and PC are merely stylistic.
A computer adventure is a game that has little to no reflex-intensive gameplay to speak of; instead, it relies on puzzles. However, computer adventures are not puzzle games, because the puzzles are suspended within a story that progresses as you play, and those puzzles make sense within the story. (This is why I think Myst ruined the computer adventure genre; it barely has any justification to be in that genre in the first place.) Another criterion is the presence of an inventory system, which makes the puzzles of a much different flavor from those found in traditional puzzle games.
Console adventures are basically console RPGs without complex stats that can be upgraded in an undefined way. For instance, in Final Fantasy one can choose to go up to Level 99 at the beginning of the game (if he is really bored) or choose to beat the game at a very low level. In Zelda, on the other hand, stat gains (in the form of heart containers, in this case) come in a very rigid manner; you have to take the stat gain when the programmers decide to give it to you. The attack and defense stats in Zelda are also very coarse (get a certain sword and you get a 50% increase in attack, for example), while in Final Fantasy, they are much more subtle and in-depth. Console adventures also don't have experience systems, a very important difference between them and RPGs.
Rob
In that case, we can't use classifications for anything, since there will always be someone who disputes the accuracy of said classification.
It's not just the adventure genre that's difficult to classify. RPGs are quite difficult to categorize as well. And then you have games like GTA3 which fuse several genres together.
Anyway, a good first-approximation definition for "adventure" (at least in the PC sense) was given in an earlier post: An RPG which has no character building. It's slightly more complicated than that (and of course begs the question, "What is an RPG?") but it's a good rule of thumb.
Rob
Well, first of all, I never play MP (I don't find it the least bit interesting, especially considering the 14-year-olds that normally play online), so that's entirely irrelevant for me.
As for the singleplayer, well... if you ever played Privateer, Freelancer's spiritual predecessor, you'd understand. Freelancer, being a new game, should've had much, much more freedom and nonlinearity than that game had while still managing to give us an interesting universe that changes depending on one's actions. Instead, it was actually much less nonlinear and interesting than Privateer was.
To date, my favorite Elite-style space sim is still Tachyon: The Fringe. If you liked Freelancer's SP, you should definitely give it a try.
Rob
It's sad that Will Wright actually made good games once upon a time, but his most resounding success is a Tamagotchi clone that has been outsold only by the lifeless, pointless game that singlehandedly ruined the computer adventure genre (Myst).
Rob
Tomb Raider?
I thought only people who had IQs below 80 and/or retrograde amnesia could possibly be disappointed by a Tomb Raider game in the year 2003. Freelancer would've been a much more appropriate nominee.
Rob (At least MOO3 was on there...)