Well yeah, they're always recording everything you say, the wake word is just for show.
You still use the "wake word" to initiate the conversation. You just don't have to say it again at the beginning of each sentence during an ongoing conversation.
These home assistants use regular Wifi, and you can monitor the packets they transmit and receive. There is no evidence that they are "recording everything you say". If they were caught doing that (and they would almost certainly get caught), they would face ruinous criminal charges and civil penalties, along with a PR disaster that would far outweigh any possible benefit. Go find a better conspiracy theory to glom onto.
I think there should be a "ummm, so I'm told" in there somewhere.
On Nanjing Lu the working girls can be pretty aggressive. If you are an obvious tourist, they will walk right up to you and ask if you want a "massage" in your hotel room. I usually reply "Wo mei you qian" (I have no money), to which they reply "You can pay with WeChat".
What does it show up on your statement as?
It would list her name, just like in any other peer-to-peer transaction.
Unlike in English, most Chinese names are not gender specific. Chinese pronouns also have no gender when spoken (but do when written), so it is common to have a long conversation about a third person and still have no idea if you are discussing a man or a woman. That is almost impossible in English.
Of all those transactions, this many involved cash: 0.
Even the hookers, blow and blackjack?
You have to go to Macau for blackjack. The hookers on Nanjing Lu (a huge pedestrian mall in downtown Shanghai) accept cashless transactions. Why not? Cash transactions are especially dangerous in their profession.
Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.
Not in my experience.
You should get a passport and expand your experiences. There are many things America does well. Consumer retail transactions are not one of them. The rest of the world is WAY ahead.
In China, they have gone to zero. There are no cashless transaction fees as far as I can see. The amount received is alway exactly the same as the amount sent.
I guess they make money on the data, and on the float. If a billion users each have $1000 CNY ($150 USD) in their account, that is a trillion CNY ($150B USD) of float. The data must also be worth a lot. Google makes billion and billions, and knowing my search terms is a lot less useful than knowing what/when/where I buy. So the data collected by Tencent and Alibaba must be worth even more.
How do I give the 'vet' hanging out on the corner a couple of bucks for hamburger evey now and then.
You use your phone to scan the QR-code on his phone, or if he doesn't have a phone, you scan the QR-code sticker on the corner of his "Please Help" sign.
You really have no idea. Most bums in China accept both WeChat and AliPay. Likewise, most Swedish bums likely take Swish (never been to Sweden (not into blondes)). Peer-to-peer payments are trivial.
How does the phone/bank/whoever know the amount I want to pay?
At many shops, the price is embedded in a QR-code that appears on a LCD screen. You just scan it and tap to confirm. At low end shops, such as street stalls without electricity, there is a fixed QR-code sticker and the vendor just tells you the price. You key it in and tap your fingerprint to authorize.
I guess the shop needs a networked computer of some sorts after all, right?
No. In theory, the merchant can just look at your phone to see that the transaction completed. In practice, they will usually also have their cell phone which will display the completed transaction. Everything is cell phone based, and there is no wired network, nor even a need for electricity other than your cell battery.
Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company
I was in China for two months last fall, witnessed thousands of cashless transactions, and this is how many times I saw anyone use a credit card: 0.
Cashless payments ARE NOT BASED ON CREDIT CARDS.
as well as a delay in getting paid,
WeChat and AliPay are instant transfers.
... and the additional risk of credit card fraud.
Credit card fraud is an AMERICAN problem. In other countries I can't spend your money just by providing semi-public information. Only Americans believe that is "the way it is supposed to be".
While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.
Equipment needed to accept cashless payments in China: A sticker with a QR-code. Cost: 2 cents.
That all sounds like it takes more than two second.
It only takes more than 2 secs if you don't already have the WeChat app open. But that is rare in China. WeChat is like SMS, voice mail, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Skype, Facetime, PayPal, plus a lot more, all rolled into one app. If you see a pedestrian in America, there is maybe a 50% chance that they aren't watching where they are going because their eyes and attention are on their phone. In China, it is at least 90%.
Even if you don't already have WeChat open, you can open it while you wait in the checkout line, so by the time you get to front, all you have to do is scan and tap.
Do they not take cash in China?
Most merchants still take cash, but more and more do not. As cash users dwindle, it just isn't worth the hassle and risk for businesses to keep cash on hand. Any merchant can accept e-payments, even informal unregistered businesses. A farmer was selling apples out of a wagon on the street in front of my apartment... with a WeChat QR-code sticker on his scale. Just weigh, scan, and go.
I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut?
I have no idea how it works in Sweden, but in China you use an app to scan the merchants QR-code, and then enter a 6 digit PIN and/or use finger/face ID to confirm the transaction. It typically takes about two seconds. I set up my phone to use fingerprint only for transactions under 100CNY ($15 USD) and require both PIN and fingerprint for larger amounts.
And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?
You can top-up your balance by linking your WeChat or AliPay app to your bank account. This requires an additional bank PIN. Or, if you don't have a Chinese bank account, you can ask a friend to send you a "hong bao" peer-to-peer transfer.
Of course the Chinese are going to have a system in place to track everything you do.
They already have that and there is no secret about it. I was just there to get my job done, so I go along with the system, obey the law, and keep out of trouble. They certainly aren't going to change their policies because I object. As an American, it is not my job to "fix" China.
Even from a business owner's perspective, there's nothing that says your business has to accept cash payments
But if few businesses accept cash, and you can't actually use cash to buy groceries, then you have a de facto cashless society.
For businesses, cash means crime. Both employee theft and robberies. Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs. Cashless self-checkout kiosks are cheaper and less error prone than those that handle cash.
I spent two months working in Shanghai last fall. I ate hundreds of meals, visited dozens of shops, and exchanged money with co-workers. Of all those transactions, this many involved cash: 0.
The solution is to do what other countries do. These are proven, working solutions. These data breaches, and CC fraud in general, are "American problems", because most other countries don't allow me to spend your money simply by providing semi-public information.
Schools are paid for with property tax, not social security taxes. Illegal aliens pay rent, which landlords use to pay property tax. So they are paying to educate their kids.
The justification for public funding of education is that we all benefit from an educated populace. The children of many illegals were born in American, and are American citizens. They have just as much right to go to school are your kids do. Even for children not born here, we are all better off with them in school and learning.
How many pristine, never used card numbers are actually left and when we will start reusing old numbers?
CC#s are 16 digits, so there are 10 quadrillion combinations. That is roughly 1.4 million numbers per person.
Only one of 10 of those numbers has a valid checksum, and there are some other restrictions (Visa always starts with "4", MC with "5", etc.), but there is no way we are ever going to run out of numbers.
Then we move into other information often lost due to this kind of negligence that need replacement mechanisms also - SSN, DL#...
There is no need to replace SSNs and DL#s. We just need to ban their use in authentication. Knowing an SSN should not be used to authenticate identity. It should just be an index number.
When my bank needs to authenticate my identity, they text a code to the cellphone linked to the account. That is not perfect, but it is WAY more secure than asking me for the last four digits of my SSN.
They need the CC# to do the refund. The customer might not have it with them, or might not remember which card they used. So the clerk needs to be able to retrieve the number.
Of course this is stupid, and other countries do it differently. For instance, in China, the transaction ID itself can be used for the refund, without any need for the CC#. In fact, the CC# is not even needed for the original purchase. You just need the cell phone linked to the account, along with a 6 digit PIN, and either your face or your fingerprint. CC fraud in China is nearly non-existent.
If that were actually true, America would have by far the world's lowest crime rates. It doesn't. In the developed world, it has one of the highest crime rates. You should read up on "evidence based reasoning".
the situation continues just the same as it has occured for years.
Then it should be obvious that we need to FIX THE PROBLEMS rather than just pounding harder on the defects.
Our current CC system is DESIGNED to be insecure, because Visa and MasterCard have no incentive to fix it, and actually benefit from additional fees for chargebacks. Blaming the merchants (who bear much of the cost of fraud) and/or end users (who also bear part of the cost) is silly.
... back to work waiting until the next breach.
You are completely missing the point. With a proper 2FA or 3FA system, disclosure of CC#s DOES NOT MATTER, because there would no longer be any reason to pretend they are "secret". In fact, the CC#s themselves would matter so little, that we could just print them directly on the cards.
The CEO of these companies are going to have to face some prison time.
No, that is not the solution. America already imprisons far more people than any other country, four times more than China, Russia, or Iran. If we are going to start imprisoning people for incompetence, we will need to vastly expand our already bloated prison system and raise taxes to pay for that.
I understand that it feels good to say "lock em up" every time we have a social problem, but if you think that is actually "the" solution, then you need to grow up.
Here is the solution: Get rid of the idiotic CC system that relies on the same information being both widely known and secret. There is no way that mere knowledge of a CC# and exp-date should be enough to use it to buy stuff. The CVV helps a little, but not much since it is printed on the card. . These CEOs didn't design this retarded system. The bankers did. How about we lock them up?
Slashdot Mirror
Design one that will penetrate even the most robust faraday cage.
So when AQ deploys a killbot on Wall Street, are we going to self-nuke NYC?
First law of war on the battlefield...
Modern wars are not fought on "battlefields".
blast an EMP over enemy lines. take out central command.
There are no "lines" and there is no "central command".
You play way too many video games.
Well yeah, they're always recording everything you say, the wake word is just for show.
You still use the "wake word" to initiate the conversation. You just don't have to say it again at the beginning of each sentence during an ongoing conversation.
These home assistants use regular Wifi, and you can monitor the packets they transmit and receive. There is no evidence that they are "recording everything you say". If they were caught doing that (and they would almost certainly get caught), they would face ruinous criminal charges and civil penalties, along with a PR disaster that would far outweigh any possible benefit. Go find a better conspiracy theory to glom onto.
I think there should be a "ummm, so I'm told" in there somewhere.
On Nanjing Lu the working girls can be pretty aggressive. If you are an obvious tourist, they will walk right up to you and ask if you want a "massage" in your hotel room. I usually reply "Wo mei you qian" (I have no money), to which they reply "You can pay with WeChat".
What does it show up on your statement as?
It would list her name, just like in any other peer-to-peer transaction.
Unlike in English, most Chinese names are not gender specific. Chinese pronouns also have no gender when spoken (but do when written), so it is common to have a long conversation about a third person and still have no idea if you are discussing a man or a woman. That is almost impossible in English.
What would they need to do on an iPad, really?
iPads are used by most schools for kindergarten and 1st grade. They use them for basic tap-and-drag apps like phonics and single digit arithmetic.
Of course a Chromebook will be better for older kids, but not for the very young. They can't use a keyboard if they haven't learned the alphabet.
Likely all those guys are under non competes/non disclosure agreements.
Non-compete agreements are unenforceable in California.
Even the hookers, blow and blackjack?
You have to go to Macau for blackjack. The hookers on Nanjing Lu (a huge pedestrian mall in downtown Shanghai) accept cashless transactions. Why not? Cash transactions are especially dangerous in their profession.
Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.
Not in my experience.
You should get a passport and expand your experiences. There are many things America does well. Consumer retail transactions are not one of them. The rest of the world is WAY ahead.
Surcharges have decreased
In China, they have gone to zero. There are no cashless transaction fees as far as I can see. The amount received is alway exactly the same as the amount sent.
I guess they make money on the data, and on the float. If a billion users each have $1000 CNY ($150 USD) in their account, that is a trillion CNY ($150B USD) of float. The data must also be worth a lot. Google makes billion and billions, and knowing my search terms is a lot less useful than knowing what/when/where I buy. So the data collected by Tencent and Alibaba must be worth even more.
How do I give the 'vet' hanging out on the corner a couple of bucks for hamburger evey now and then.
You use your phone to scan the QR-code on his phone, or if he doesn't have a phone, you scan the QR-code sticker on the corner of his "Please Help" sign.
You really have no idea. Most bums in China accept both WeChat and AliPay. Likewise, most Swedish bums likely take Swish (never been to Sweden (not into blondes)). Peer-to-peer payments are trivial.
How does the phone/bank/whoever know the amount I want to pay?
At many shops, the price is embedded in a QR-code that appears on a LCD screen. You just scan it and tap to confirm. At low end shops, such as street stalls without electricity, there is a fixed QR-code sticker and the vendor just tells you the price. You key it in and tap your fingerprint to authorize.
I guess the shop needs a networked computer of some sorts after all, right?
No. In theory, the merchant can just look at your phone to see that the transaction completed. In practice, they will usually also have their cell phone which will display the completed transaction. Everything is cell phone based, and there is no wired network, nor even a need for electricity other than your cell battery.
Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company
I was in China for two months last fall, witnessed thousands of cashless transactions, and this is how many times I saw anyone use a credit card: 0.
Cashless payments ARE NOT BASED ON CREDIT CARDS.
as well as a delay in getting paid,
WeChat and AliPay are instant transfers.
... and the additional risk of credit card fraud.
Credit card fraud is an AMERICAN problem. In other countries I can't spend your money just by providing semi-public information. Only Americans believe that is "the way it is supposed to be".
While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.
Equipment needed to accept cashless payments in China: A sticker with a QR-code. Cost: 2 cents.
Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card, it takes about 15 seconds for the transaction.
Countries currently going "cashless" are not doing it with chipped cards. You pay with your phone. Scan, tap, go.
That all sounds like it takes more than two second.
It only takes more than 2 secs if you don't already have the WeChat app open. But that is rare in China. WeChat is like SMS, voice mail, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Skype, Facetime, PayPal, plus a lot more, all rolled into one app. If you see a pedestrian in America, there is maybe a 50% chance that they aren't watching where they are going because their eyes and attention are on their phone. In China, it is at least 90%.
Even if you don't already have WeChat open, you can open it while you wait in the checkout line, so by the time you get to front, all you have to do is scan and tap.
Do they not take cash in China?
Most merchants still take cash, but more and more do not. As cash users dwindle, it just isn't worth the hassle and risk for businesses to keep cash on hand. Any merchant can accept e-payments, even informal unregistered businesses. A farmer was selling apples out of a wagon on the street in front of my apartment ... with a WeChat QR-code sticker on his scale. Just weigh, scan, and go.
I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut?
I have no idea how it works in Sweden, but in China you use an app to scan the merchants QR-code, and then enter a 6 digit PIN and/or use finger/face ID to confirm the transaction. It typically takes about two seconds. I set up my phone to use fingerprint only for transactions under 100CNY ($15 USD) and require both PIN and fingerprint for larger amounts.
And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?
You can top-up your balance by linking your WeChat or AliPay app to your bank account. This requires an additional bank PIN. Or, if you don't have a Chinese bank account, you can ask a friend to send you a "hong bao" peer-to-peer transfer.
Of course the Chinese are going to have a system in place to track everything you do.
They already have that and there is no secret about it. I was just there to get my job done, so I go along with the system, obey the law, and keep out of trouble. They certainly aren't going to change their policies because I object. As an American, it is not my job to "fix" China.
Even from a business owner's perspective, there's nothing that says your business has to accept cash payments
But if few businesses accept cash, and you can't actually use cash to buy groceries, then you have a de facto cashless society.
For businesses, cash means crime. Both employee theft and robberies. Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs. Cashless self-checkout kiosks are cheaper and less error prone than those that handle cash.
I spent two months working in Shanghai last fall. I ate hundreds of meals, visited dozens of shops, and exchanged money with co-workers. Of all those transactions, this many involved cash: 0.
I have the last four digits from one company, and the first four digits from another.
The first four digits identify the issuing bank.
What are the odds of guessing the full number?
There are 16 digits, and you know 8, then that leaves 8. But only one in ten has a proper checksum, so there are 10^7 possibilities.
The solution is to do what other countries do. These are proven, working solutions. These data breaches, and CC fraud in general, are "American problems", because most other countries don't allow me to spend your money simply by providing semi-public information.
that's all i want to say as a supportive example.
A better example is North Sentinel Island. They REALLY don't like immigrants.
Kids go to school? Yes.
Schools are paid for with property tax, not social security taxes. Illegal aliens pay rent, which landlords use to pay property tax. So they are paying to educate their kids.
The justification for public funding of education is that we all benefit from an educated populace. The children of many illegals were born in American, and are American citizens. They have just as much right to go to school are your kids do. Even for children not born here, we are all better off with them in school and learning.
Lol slashdot cuts the url at just the right length to know it's a partisan site.
Nitpicking at someone else's citation, while providing none of your own, is tantamount to admitting that you lost the argument.
How many pristine, never used card numbers are actually left and when we will start reusing old numbers?
CC#s are 16 digits, so there are 10 quadrillion combinations. That is roughly 1.4 million numbers per person.
Only one of 10 of those numbers has a valid checksum, and there are some other restrictions (Visa always starts with "4", MC with "5", etc.), but there is no way we are ever going to run out of numbers.
Then we move into other information often lost due to this kind of negligence that need replacement mechanisms also - SSN, DL#...
There is no need to replace SSNs and DL#s. We just need to ban their use in authentication. Knowing an SSN should not be used to authenticate identity. It should just be an index number.
When my bank needs to authenticate my identity, they text a code to the cellphone linked to the account. That is not perfect, but it is WAY more secure than asking me for the last four digits of my SSN.
No CC number need be exposed.
They need the CC# to do the refund. The customer might not have it with them, or might not remember which card they used. So the clerk needs to be able to retrieve the number.
Of course this is stupid, and other countries do it differently. For instance, in China, the transaction ID itself can be used for the refund, without any need for the CC#. In fact, the CC# is not even needed for the original purchase. You just need the cell phone linked to the account, along with a 6 digit PIN, and either your face or your fingerprint. CC fraud in China is nearly non-existent.
No crime, no punishment, no solution
If that were actually true, America would have by far the world's lowest crime rates. It doesn't. In the developed world, it has one of the highest crime rates. You should read up on "evidence based reasoning".
the situation continues just the same as it has occured for years.
Then it should be obvious that we need to FIX THE PROBLEMS rather than just pounding harder on the defects.
Our current CC system is DESIGNED to be insecure, because Visa and MasterCard have no incentive to fix it, and actually benefit from additional fees for chargebacks. Blaming the merchants (who bear much of the cost of fraud) and/or end users (who also bear part of the cost) is silly.
... back to work waiting until the next breach.
You are completely missing the point. With a proper 2FA or 3FA system, disclosure of CC#s DOES NOT MATTER, because there would no longer be any reason to pretend they are "secret". In fact, the CC#s themselves would matter so little, that we could just print them directly on the cards.
The CEO of these companies are going to have to face some prison time.
No, that is not the solution. America already imprisons far more people than any other country, four times more than China, Russia, or Iran. If we are going to start imprisoning people for incompetence, we will need to vastly expand our already bloated prison system and raise taxes to pay for that.
I understand that it feels good to say "lock em up" every time we have a social problem, but if you think that is actually "the" solution, then you need to grow up.
Here is the solution: Get rid of the idiotic CC system that relies on the same information being both widely known and secret. There is no way that mere knowledge of a CC# and exp-date should be enough to use it to buy stuff. The CVV helps a little, but not much since it is printed on the card. . These CEOs didn't design this retarded system. The bankers did. How about we lock them up?