Swedes Turn Against Cashlessness (theguardian.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: It is hard to argue that you cannot trust the government when the government isn't really all that bad. This is the problem facing the small but growing number of Swedes anxious about their country's rush to embrace a cash-free society. Most consumers already say they manage without cash altogether, while shops and cafes increasingly refuse to accept notes and coins because of the costs and risk involved. Until recently, however, it has been hard for critics to find a hearing. "The Swedish government is a rather nice one, we have been lucky enough to have mostly nice ones for the past 100 years," says Christian Engstrom, a former MEP for the Pirate Party and an early opponent of the cashless economy. "In other countries there is much more awareness that you cannot trust the government all the time. In Sweden it is hard to get people mobilized."

There are signs this might be changing. In February, the head of Sweden's central bank warned that Sweden could soon face a situation where all payments were controlled by private sector banks. The Riksbank governor, Stefan Ingves, called for new legislation to secure public control over the payments system, arguing that being able to make and receive payments is a "collective good" like defense, the courts, or public statistics. "Most citizens would feel uncomfortable to surrender these social functions to private companies," he said. "It should be obvious that Sweden's preparedness would be weakened if, in a serious crisis or war, we had not decided in advance how households and companies would pay for fuel, supplies and other necessities." The report mentions a recently-released opinion poll, which found that seven out of 10 Swedes wanted to keep the option to use cash, while just 25% wanted a completely cashless society.

Comments

Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty obvious

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Reverend Green]

If by "obvious" you mean "obviously stupid".

Re:Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Cryptocurrencies have no value.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "obvious" you mean "obviously stupid".

I think it's important to distinguish between "crypto" in the general sense of cryptography, although the GP probably was referring to blockchains, and specific applications of cryptography, as embodied in current blockchain implementations, like Bitcoin. It's easy enough to imagine a system that more closely duplicates our current paper or polymer bank note cash system with an option to issue free of charge by the government smart cards or other stored value cards with balances issued by the government or banks on behalf of the government and using cryptography to secure the balances while making transactions and maintaining anonymity with no centralized or even distributed copy of all transactions. Indeed, just such a system is described in Bruce Schneier's book Applied Cryptography which was first published in 1994. Using cryptography to improve and extend the cash system is not "obviously stupid" or at least it's not to me, but maybe there's a genius out there who could yet enlighten us all.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

And how about the Dollar? Yes there have been times where the US Dollar was secured by the corresponding amount of gold. But now due to some wars it's nothing more worth than the paper of a dollar bill. Every currency is build on trust. That is the ultimate level of security.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

But now due to some wars it's nothing more worth than the paper of a dollar bill.

Incorrect. It is worth more because it is backed by the US Government, which is very unlikely to default.

Also, what is the intrinsic value of gold? Gold fluctuates...

Re:Crypto is one solution

[AHuxley]

The government would know who used their classless card to buy what crypto.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlikely to default? Its completely unable to pay its bills, and only a fool would lend it more money.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

The "dollar" has something called "economy" backing it up... unlike any and all cryptocurrencies. And wrong on the "trust", every currency is built on "value" (again, dollar, euro, yen, krona, etc, have the value of the "economy" to back it up).

I find it so odd that people intelligent enough to know how to turn on a computer are so dumb to forget about such an obvious and important detail that separates traditional currencies from scam currencies like existing cryptocurrencies.

Re:Crypto is one solution

[TheRaven64]

It's important to differentiate the form of coinage from the backing medium. Coinage often has little or no intrinsic value. This is especially true of paper promissory notes, which cost a tiny fraction of their face value to produce and have few other possible uses (uncomfortable toilet paper, really tacky wallpaper, or a convenient object for arranging your cocaine in lines). Currencies are typically backed by some promise from an organisation to exchange them for something else. For example, the one Pound Sterling could originally be redeemed for one pound of sterling silver. Most modern currencies are established by fiat: a law requires that they can be used to settle any debt, including taxes, so their value is based on the number of people who have debts that can be settled by the currency.

A crypto currency simply provides an implementation mechanism that allows you to maintain a ledger recording transactions without a single central point of failure. This would address the concerns in TFA, where people are worried that if, for example, the Russians invaded they'd be able to shut down all commerce in a region by flipping a few config options in a computer.

Most crypto currencies have difficulties replacing real-world currency uses because they are entirely decoupled from any store of value in the real world. Ideally (gross oversimplifications follow), the monetary supply should reflect the economy. When more value is created in the economy, more money should be created to represent it. When value is removed from the economy, the money supply should contract by a corresponding amount. The money supply should expand slightly faster than the economy so that holding money is discouraged as a means of holding value (you want people to invest in things that improve productivity, not keep piles of cash under their bed).

Re: Crypto is one solution

[TheRaven64]

The US government accepts US dollars and only US dollars in payment for taxes. Last year, the Federal government received $2.3 trillion in income taxes. Assuming that the economy stays broadly the same size, that means this year people in the US will require around $2.3 trillion to be able to pay their taxes. That's what backs the US Dollar. The amount of tax that's paid reflects the health of the economy, so indirectly the US Dollar is backed by the health of the US economy.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

That's irrational. Like saying 'that pig is unable to brush it's teeth' or 'that truck is unable to change it's own oil.'

Re: Crypto is one solution

[vakuona]

The US could literally print $20 trillion dollars in $100 bills and pay off their bond holders as they fall due. Of course, this would cause inflation to shoot up, but the debt would be paid.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

'We could exchange Magic: The Gathering' cards, and you could have some of these potatos. Later, I can have some of your floor mats. If the value of the M:TG cards doesn't wildly fluctuate again, I won't be ripping you off again.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Ekrona is a Riskbank project thatâ(TM)s evaluating IOTA, Stellar, and other crypto technology (not the coins that have already been issued by these companies). DYOR

Re: Crypto is one solution

[kilfarsnar]

And how about the Dollar? Yes there have been times where the US Dollar was secured by the corresponding amount of gold. But now due to some wars it's nothing more worth than the paper of a dollar bill. Every currency is build on trust. That is the ultimate level of security.

Yes, trust is part of it. But the dollar is actually backed by two things: The faith and credit of the United States. We have already covered the "faith" part. That is the trust and agreement among everyone to use it as money. But what is "credit"? Credit is the ability to pay a debt. Because every dollar is loaned into existence, it must be paid back. And how do we make money to pay it back? We go to work! Well, most of us, anyway. So the US dollar is also backed by the fact that most of us go to work every day, and will continue to do so. Funny, eh?

Re: Crypto is one solution

[kilfarsnar]

Unlikely to default? Its completely unable to pay its bills, and only a fool would lend it more money.

You really don't understand how the US monetary system works, do you? The US government has literally infinite money. It is completely able to pay its bills.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. This quite typical of gold standard proponents. As is giving a link yo some weird youtube video... ;)

Re:Crypto is one solution

[AlwinBarni]

The money supply should expand slightly faster than the economy so that holding money is discouraged as a means of holding value (you want people to invest in things that improve productivity, not keep piles of cash under their bed).

I know that this is what economic books teach us, but my question is why? To be clear, I know the reason "to stimulate economy", just I am not familiar with any historical evidence to support it. Isn't it that there were economically stable times when currency had an intrinsic value, and quite to contrary - most big financial collapses happened under "modern" economy rules, and lastly isn't it the right of a human being to be rewarded for their work with something of intrinsic value and keep it under their bed if they chose so?

Re:Crypto is one solution

[TheRaven64]

To be clear, I know the reason "to stimulate economy", just I am not familiar with any historical evidence to support it.

Take a look at what happened when economies abandoned gold or silver standards. In several cases it was because their economies started to grow faster than their money supply, which led to recessions.

Isn't it that there were economically stable times when currency had an intrinsic value, and quite to contrary - most big financial collapses happened under "modern" economy rules

The Great Depression happened when most countries were on the gold standard.

lastly isn't it the right of a human being to be rewarded for their work with something of intrinsic value and keep it under their bed if they chose so?

That's an interesting philosophical question. Part of the problem is defining what such a thing should be. Let's say that we use gold. Now if I do some work but there's no gold available, what happens?

Re:Crypto is one solution

[Agronomist Cowherd]

Paper currency is for delivering the cocaine to your nose; it's plastic cards that arrange it into convenient lines.

Re:Crypto is one solution

[TheRaven64]

Hmm, isn't the point of the newer cellulose / plastic 'paper' money to combine the two uses into a simple tool?

Re:Crypto is one solution

[registrations_suck]

Pretty obvious

Yes, it is.

Now, what problem is it a solution to? That's the mystery.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[aliquis]

Backed how? They will buy it? No.

Re:Crypto is one solution

[lgw]

Isn't it that there were economically stable times when currency had an intrinsic value, and quite to contrary - most big financial collapses happened under "modern" economy rules,

No, that's not true. There were some pretty brutal problems before fiat currency. Specie currency is particularly bad. First because the economy grinds to a halt when there aren't enough coins in circulation to mediate barter (this is one factor in the collapse of the Roman Empire - trade deficits mean you run out of currency). Second because the government waters down the currency by coining less pure coins, which makes day-to-day commerce a real pain in the ass. When e.g. a shilling coin has no specific value, but each specific coin must be bartered as to the amount of silver it may or may not contain, well, shopping won't be fast or convenient.

And of course the Great Depression and the previous US economic bubbles (railway, canal) all happened with gold-backed currency.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[aliquis]

Because decrease the value of the dollar to half and the government would care so much if it got twice the amount of dollars instead.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[aliquis]

The paper bills are used to buy the cocaine and to make it easier to get it into your nose.

Now credit cards those are for ordering digital currency and to line up the coke.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[WorBlux]

Everything fluctuates. And while the Federal Reserve Note is unlikely to become worthless overnight, it can and has suffered huge shocks, and when nobody trusts the U.S. government to be solvent direct inflation if inevitable. The U.S. government is staring down a massive unfunded liability problem, and no individual congress-person has any incentive to fix it.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[orlanz]

lastly isn't it the right of a human being to be rewarded for their work with something of intrinsic value and keep it under their bed if they chose so?

Others have addressed your other points so I will focus on this one. The answer is No. Not to the intent of your question but due to the answers it would give to secondary questions which would be wrong

Every human should have the right to ask something in return for their time & effort. They also have the right to secure it how they see fit. However they do not have the right to have that "something" keep its value over time nor have others recognize that same value.

One has the right to ask for 50 jellybeans for 1 hour of labor. If accepted, they should get their 50 jellybeans, and be able to keep them secure. However they have no right to assume that others will labor for 1 hr for those same 50 jellybeans.

Even currency, people have no right to its original value. However, the social recognition of it and it's semi-stability is a collective bargain. A bargain that is more stable and better served with a widget whose production value & availability are negiligable completed to its transactional utility.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[WorBlux]

If it doubles the money supply, then every dollar is worth half as much. Do that even once, and anything else starts to look pretty attractive, the demand for FRN's drop, reducing value even more. Also a lot of the liabilities are tied to inflation. so they'd have to print even more next month to send out the SS checks.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[WorBlux]

"The economy" is just the decisions of individual actors. It can and has changed as so many currencies have proven time and again. Bad economic policies and government debt can and have driven many official currencies towards almost zero.

No cryptocoin is yet a currency, indeed you need to see more people buying if for later exchange for consumer goods then buying it hoping to exchange if for a currency later. But I think the tech is pretty promising, though a pure PoW system is probably fataly flawed in terms of getting a true circulation going.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[WorBlux]

Taxes are at least paid quarterly, (and corps get to set their own fiscal year) so as long as the government is spending taxes through the year, you don't need nearly so much.

Re:Crypto is one solution

[WorBlux]

Most of the great depression for the U.S at least happened after private ownership of gold was outlawed, and gold redemption clauses in contracts became unenforceable. A federal fractional reserve system had already been in place for a good while.

There were prior notable "panics though, a big example being 1876" cause in part due to inflationary silver minting from newly discovered deposits in the western states, the solution being to limit the coinage of silver, to the point rarity brought value back into line with official rates (more of a gold note printed on silver, rather than a silver coin on it's own). A bi-metallic standard definitely has disadvantages.

A government-backed paper standard would be just fine, if you could expect such government to carefully play by the rules and not manipulate the situation for their benefit. No government as of yet has proven trustworthy, the best that can be said is the smarter ones have limited their manipulation so that effects are slow enough that voters aren't outraged in the moment (diffuse and hide the costs, concentrate and advertise the benefits)

Re: Crypto is one solution

[WorBlux]

You'd have to pay such a huge premium to buy crypto in a reversible transaction, that offers very large quantities. (Remember the vendor is stuck with the cost of CC fruad)

Re: Crypto is one solution

[OrangeTide]

It is completely able to pay its bills.

There are exceptional situations where this is not true.

1. If can choose not to pay its bills. For example if austerity measures are necessary the government can refuse to pay interest on some debts. Now creditors will have difficulty selling such a debt. Buying and selling debt is a thing, and terms for borrowing money depend a lot on how you are rated with your current debts. The US is far away from being so poorly rated that they can't borrow money anymore, so it's probably not a realistic scenario.

2. The government could collapse due to war, civil unrest or overthrow. Usually the new country won't honor debts of the prior regime. The Confederacy had a lot of issues borrowing money in the last two years of the War. The first half of the war the CSA was so successful at raising money that the US was a bit unprepared as some assumed the rebellion couldn't last under to finance costly military action.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Darinbob]

The value is in the trust the general populace holds in the dollar. Same for other currencies. When trust is lost in some currencies then this can lead to massive inflation, something we've rarely seen in the USD. Cryptocurrencies have so extremely few users that I would so that the general populace trusts them.

Trust means more than "I trust that no one can steal my currency". It also means you can expect a reasonable level of stability in price, you can expect to be able to use it easily in your daily life, you don't have to convince a second party that your currency is good before you start a trade, and so forth. And cryptocurrencies are lacking in these. You can't walk down to the store and buy a loaf of bread with cryptocurrencies.

It is better that the dollar is not tied to the corresponding amount of gold, the economy greatly improved after these were untied from each other. The value is strengthened because we have a diverse economy with a very large population. This is similar to diversifying investments, a US state with a poor economy and one with a great economy all use the same dollar.

Re:Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

For the love of God, do NOT use cash to insufflate your drugs. Bills are incredibly dirty and you can wind up with something like Hepatitis C.

Post-it notes work just as well and there's an adhesive so it won't unroll on you.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[reanjr]

Credit is just a measure of trust to pay debts. It's still all faith.

Re:Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Say you have a problem. You add crypto to it. Now you have two problems.

Re: Crypto is one solution

[NewYork]

Since US dollar is Petrocurrency, inflation will be shifted to Oil importing nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re: Crypto is one solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlikely to default? Its completely unable to pay its bills, and only a fool would lend it more money.

You really don't understand how the US monetary system works, do you? The US government has literally infinite money. It is completely able to pay its bills

If you have literally infinite money, then you have nothing of worth and thus you have NO money. You might as well try to pay your bills with the empty space between planets.

Economic history has shown over and over again that you can not print your way to prosperity by printing endless money. The worst case was that of Germany in the post WW1 years: the attempt to do so would eventually result in total economic collapse leading to the takeover of the National Socialists (Nazis), a totalitarian police state, WW2, and the death of 55 million human beings - not to mention the spread of Communism and fifty years of Cold (and sometimes hot) War - with consequences that are still affecting us today.

This was the worst case, but there were many others in the latter half of the 20th century. Why is it so hard for people to learn from the mistakes of the past? Do that many people really sleep through all their history classes? Or do we need to make economic history a required class at the high school level?

Claims that government debt is harmless are an economic myth.

US government at all levels (federal,state,local) is already unable to pay for a lot of needed infrastructure work and maintenance: and if you don't do this sort of work in a timely manner, it gets more expensive to do later (the costs go up in a manner that considerably exceeds inflation). Germany tends to finish building things ten years before they're actually needed, in contrast, government in the US typically hasn't even started the work that was needed ten years ago because they don't have the funds (due to too much debt). They haven't even started building a third lane for the highway where I live, and they already need a fourth - and a mass transit system is long overdue. Taxes bring in sufficient money to do the work - but over half the budget goes to pay off debt and thus isn't available. Similar problems have affected every one of the many places that I have lived in the US. This debt is also one of the big reasons the US can't afford health care reform: there isn't money to pay for a single-payer system that would cover everybody.

Excessive government debt carries a very high price: there is substantial impact on human lives. It's like another regressive tax: everybody pays for it, one way or another, but the poor and the middle class pay the most, in the form of longer commutes, more accidents, more pollution, more expensive health care, and many other problems.

Government should be required to pay "cash on the barrelhead", except for major emergencies such as giant earthquakes, volcanic eruption, or world wars. Current generations should not in general be able to put future generations in debt. Further, there shouldn't be any form of pension plan funded by government, instead it should implement the same sort of retirement systems used by most of the private sector, systems where money is allocated towards retirement as it is earned, and thus is no longer part of the government budget or a future obligation against government.

Why would you want cashless?

[alvinrod]

Why would you want a cashless society? Having the ability to pay in cash doesn't require you to do so yourself. I can't wrap my head around the fact that there are some people who actively want fewer choices even when the alternative options require nothing from them in terms of action or cost. Even from a business owner's perspective, there's nothing that says your business has to accept cash payments, unless there's some obscure Swedish laws of which I'm unaware.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

Even from a business owner's perspective, there's nothing that says your business has to accept cash payments

But if few businesses accept cash, and you can't actually use cash to buy groceries, then you have a de facto cashless society.

For businesses, cash means crime. Both employee theft and robberies. Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs. Cashless self-checkout kiosks are cheaper and less error prone than those that handle cash.

I spent two months working in Shanghai last fall. I ate hundreds of meals, visited dozens of shops, and exchanged money with co-workers. Of all those transactions, this many involved cash: 0.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[willy_me]

One guess, it minimizes fraud. Cash payments made "under the table" take away from tax revenue resulting in increased tax rates for those who pay their taxes. It is sort of like shoplifting - costs just get passed on to those that do not steal / do pay their taxes. Worse yet, many of those who get paid discretely still try to benefit from the social safety net. This increases the cost to taxpayers even more.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the cashiers need to support both and the cashiees need to have both in case a cashier doesn't support both methods.

It's like supporting backwards compatibility, it's fine but not something you want to do indefinitely.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

A lot of people want "progress" because it's new and different. They also want self-driving cars that will make their cars illegal to drive (and they won't be afford). They seem unable to process that adding technology isn't always a good thing. Anyway, off to vote on a computer with no paper trail...

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone

I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut? And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?

I spent two months working in Shanghai last fall.

Of course the Chinese are going to have a system in place to track everything you do.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump will die in prison either way. And you're a moron.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[lucm]

It's a bank scam. They want to avoid a situation like Japan or Iceland where people started to buy safes to keep cash at home because negative interest rates meant that banks were charging fees for cash deposits.

The whole banking system in Europe is corrupt. From Ambrosiano to Libor scandals, from the Swiss hoarding nazi gold to HSBC laundering drug money, from Latvian banksters to Maltese murderers, it's a huge network of thieves and common criminals. Even Wells Fargo and their fake accounts don't come close to the level of European crooks.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

For businesses, cash means crime. Both employee theft and robberies. Cash transactions are also slower ...

I live in one of the world's leading countries for banking/payments tech. We've had contactless payments/Transport cards etc for years so effectively a cashless society. I get the whole convenience angle, and as a techy I love nothing more than efficiency, but I have real fears for the privacy trade-off. We've already had one case where leading supermarket chain has been caught tracking customer's spending habits illegally.

If you think that's all a bit tinfoil-hat paranoia then I suggest a visit to the Topography of Terror museum in Berlin. This level of data collection is not going to end well.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Khyber]

"Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs."

Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card, it takes about 15 seconds for the transaction. As a former cashier, I could've done the entire transaction in my head and had the change in the customer's hands in less than ten seconds.

Might be slower for you now because of all the clueless millennials in retail positions.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut?

I have no idea how it works in Sweden, but in China you use an app to scan the merchants QR-code, and then enter a 6 digit PIN and/or use finger/face ID to confirm the transaction. It typically takes about two seconds. I set up my phone to use fingerprint only for transactions under 100CNY ($15 USD) and require both PIN and fingerprint for larger amounts.

And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?

You can top-up your balance by linking your WeChat or AliPay app to your bank account. This requires an additional bank PIN. Or, if you don't have a Chinese bank account, you can ask a friend to send you a "hong bao" peer-to-peer transfer.

Of course the Chinese are going to have a system in place to track everything you do.

They already have that and there is no secret about it. I was just there to get my job done, so I go along with the system, obey the law, and keep out of trouble. They certainly aren't going to change their policies because I object. As an American, it is not my job to "fix" China.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[PopeRatzo]

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone

The downside is that anyone who pays by waving their phone looks like a total douche.

I'm not kidding. Has anyone seen a person pay by waving their phone and NOT thought, "That person looks like a total douche"?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[PopeRatzo]

in China you use an app to scan the merchants QR-code, and then enter a 6 digit PIN and/or use finger/face ID to confirm the transaction. It typically takes about two seconds.

That all sounds like it takes more than two second.

Do they not take cash in China?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Archfeld]

Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company, as well as a delay in getting paid, and the additional risk of credit card fraud. While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cashless is great! The government can accuse you of a crime, instantly freeze all your assets to ensure you can't pay for a lawyer to defend yourself - works great!

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you want a cashless society? Having the ability to pay in cash doesn't require you to do so yourself. I can't wrap my head around the fact that there are some people who actively want fewer choices even when the alternative options require nothing from them in terms of action or cost.

As an individual, no, you don't want that. Cash-in-hand carries some obvious risks like loss or theft, and a few less obvious ones, like (hyper)inflation and devaluation. Money-in-the-bank comes with a "we won't steal from you, honest"-promise that is usually a national scandal if it gets broken, but it does happen like when a bank goes AWOL or bust overnight. Then there's the loss of control ("Cyprus template"). The obvious problems and their mitigations are well-known and well-understood. The other stuff, much less so.

For businesses, especially those sitting on the interface between numbers in bank accounts and cash-in-hand, it's easy to pretend that cash is nothing but a business expense that one had best dispense with. This isn't necessarily true, but it's the fashionable pretence.

For governments, cashless means unprecedented control. You know, civil forfeiture with less smell of "the government is stealing from me!" Which is exactly why economists are creaming their pants at the idea. Bank problem? Just steal everybody's bank balances and done. Bank runs? Impossible because without cash nobody can get their money out. Monetary policy, no matter how onerous, becomes much easier to just force onto the population. And so on.

So cash vs. cashless is an indicator how much the people is beholden to the local government. Which in turn might well be beholden to some other organisation (ECB, FRB).

Even from a business owner's perspective, there's nothing that says your business has to accept cash payments

But if few businesses accept cash, and you can't actually use cash to buy groceries, then you have a de facto cashless society.

Yes. Which is not very good for ordinary citizens. As a business, you're more or less beholden to the banks and the tax man anyway.

For businesses, cash means crime. Both employee theft and robberies.

These are well-understood risks. Much moreso than "digital bank robberies", but hey, if the bank promises they'll replace all losses then we can pretend there's no risk at all, right? RIght up until you want to hold them to that promise, of course. Just like insurance companies, only worse.

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.

Right up until the bloody thing runs out of power, throws a hissy fit, you name it. Besides, "waving your phone" is one of many cashless payment methods, all different, and a relatively new one at that.

I pay everything cash, complete with adding a few coins to minimise total item exchange where possible, and I'm not slower than someone using chip-and-pin. A little practice goes a long way here. Plus it gives me a keen insight in just how much cash I have available. I don't have to risk my entire bank account's balance every time I stick that card in a reader. Do you know the balances on all your ready payment methods by heart? How do you check? How do you account, how do you control your expenses?

Cashless self-checkout kiosks are cheaper and less error prone than those that handle cash.

If you choose to pretend fraud suddenly ceases to exist.

I haven't checked but I really wonder what happens if suddenly a bunch of unknown-to-the-system unbanked illegal aliens barge in and take your entire inventory with them. Over here in Europe we have a lot of those coming in by the boatload, and our politicians are entirely too weak to do diddly squat about it.

I spent two months working in Shanghai last fall. I ate hundreds of meals, visi

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Jesus_666]

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.

Not in my experience. (Note that self-service kiosks aren't really a thing outside of vending machines where I live so my experience always involves cashiers.) For cashless you have to tell the cashier to use a card, wait for them to turn on the card/NFC terminal, wait for the terminal to recognize the card/device, wait for the server to issue a challenge, enter your pin and then wait for your response to be verified. Takes twenty seconds if everything goes well and up to a minute if something goes wrong and the cashier has to restart the transaction.

For cash you give your money to someone who spends half of their workday efficiently sorting currency into and out of an organized box, then take back the change. Ten seconds if you're lucky, thirty if you're really not.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

That all sounds like it takes more than two second.

It only takes more than 2 secs if you don't already have the WeChat app open. But that is rare in China. WeChat is like SMS, voice mail, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Skype, Facetime, PayPal, plus a lot more, all rolled into one app. If you see a pedestrian in America, there is maybe a 50% chance that they aren't watching where they are going because their eyes and attention are on their phone. In China, it is at least 90%.

Even if you don't already have WeChat open, you can open it while you wait in the checkout line, so by the time you get to front, all you have to do is scan and tap.

Do they not take cash in China?

Most merchants still take cash, but more and more do not. As cash users dwindle, it just isn't worth the hassle and risk for businesses to keep cash on hand. Any merchant can accept e-payments, even informal unregistered businesses. A farmer was selling apples out of a wagon on the street in front of my apartment ... with a WeChat QR-code sticker on his scale. Just weigh, scan, and go.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.

No, cash transactions don't raise costs, waving your phone lowers them (assuming that it does cost less). Don't forget which was in use first.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Pfhorrest]

It sounds like the motive for this "cashless" system is to keep the increasingly-widespread use of electronic payments from being completely controlled by private parties like banks. What doesn't make any sense to me is why the government can't just roll out a public electronic payment system, to compete with the private ones (with the advantage of not having to turn a profit doing so), which it can leave just as they are without shutting them down... and also continue having the public cash system as well. The problem they're concerned about doesn't require the solution they're naming. By all means, make a public electronic payment system to protect the public from private ones. Doesn't mean you have to shut down cash at the same time.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[PopeRatzo]

you can ask a friend to send you a "hong bao"

Is that with chicken, pork or beef?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[PopeRatzo]

Most merchants still take cash, but more and more do not. As cash users dwindle, it just isn't worth the hassle and risk for businesses to keep cash on hand. Any merchant can accept e-payments, even informal unregistered businesses. A farmer was selling apples out of a wagon on the street in front of my apartment ... with a WeChat QR-code sticker on his scale. Just weigh, scan, and go.

China sounds like a trip now. I was there in the 90s, studying martial arts in Wudang, and it was still pretty bare bones. I'd like to go again soon.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[LunaticTippy]

I'll bet few places in human history have changed more then China in the past 20 years.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card, it takes about 15 seconds for the transaction.

Countries currently going "cashless" are not doing it with chipped cards. You pay with your phone. Scan, tap, go.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you just cant comprehend that other societies work very differently to your own. As an expat living in Sweden for the last 10 years I can tell you that nobody thinks its weird to use your bank card and/or "swish" (using your smartphone app) to pay. That doesnt mean that all the problems with cashless societies dont exist, like the privacy concerns, risk to hacking, control ceding to government etc, but in the real world where people wake up, pick up their smart phone, jump on a bus to work, or head to the supermarket, or go shopping, almost everyone under "old giffer" age uses a card to pay, and NOBODY thinks its weird, in fact, most people think its nice to not have to fanny about withdrawing cash from machines or have wads of cash in their pockets.

It is the same kind of weird incredulity as to why people over here cannot understand why people in the USA get such a boner when anyone asks why would anyone want to live in a society where normal people can get guns

well I guess different cultures and societies are just different. Wow, who knew?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[LunaticTippy]

Are you sure? I was talking to some cannabis shop owners who claim that handling cash is about the same cost as handling plastic. You have to account for shrinkage, time spent counting, employees making deposits, etc.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company

I was in China for two months last fall, witnessed thousands of cashless transactions, and this is how many times I saw anyone use a credit card: 0.

Cashless payments ARE NOT BASED ON CREDIT CARDS.

as well as a delay in getting paid,

WeChat and AliPay are instant transfers.

... and the additional risk of credit card fraud.

Credit card fraud is an AMERICAN problem. In other countries I can't spend your money just by providing semi-public information. Only Americans believe that is "the way it is supposed to be".

While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.

Equipment needed to accept cashless payments in China: A sticker with a QR-code. Cost: 2 cents.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Swedish. We use chipped cards a lot. But here, they work properly.

What moved us towards cashlessness though was "Swish", an app for instant money transfer between any two users, regardless of which banks they have. iZettle is also pretty common in small businesses; it's a chip card reader that connects to an ordinary smartphone or tablet.

This shift was rapid. Three years ago I had 55000 sek (about 6500 us$) in cash to deposit after the annual skydiving boogie our club arranges. Last year there wasn't enough cash to pay back account balances.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[jpaine619]

Cash payments made "under the table" take away from tax revenue resulting in increased tax rates for those who pay their taxes.

Do you really think that's why tax rates increase? Really?

You don't think that if the government got 100% of all the tax it was due, that it wouldn't raise rates now and then to get more?

Governments ALWAYS expand and become corrupt. There is exactly ZERO moral obligation to pay taxes to a government that is going to waste them.

Nobody can deny that the US Federal Government is one of the most corrupt and wasteful organizations on the planet. Only the California State Government even comes close. (maybe New York too)

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no idea how it works in Sweden, [...]

Bank cards are the most common and Swish is advancing fast.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've read in that in the US, most banks charge businesses to deposit cash. Usually around 2-3%. Accepting credit cards averages around 2%. Accepting debit cards is usually $0.05 or less.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ISayWeOnlyToBePolite]

Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company, as well as a delay in getting paid, and the additional risk of credit card fraud. While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.

AFAIK cash is now more expensive to handle. Surcharges have decreased, chips has driven fraud close to zero (in over the counter retail), interest rates are practically nothing and terminals and network are cheap even for very small businesses. The cost of handling/storing/transporting cash is way up due to decreased volumes and higher safety standards (it's no longer socially acceptable that someone gets robbed due to their proffession). That's why in places like Sweden cash is disappearing fast. If you don't want a cashless society you'll have to go the legislative way.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[someoneOtherThanMe]

Equipment needed to accept cashless payments in China: A sticker with a QR-code. Cost: 2 cents.

How does the phone/bank/whoever know the amount I want to pay? I guess the shop needs a networked computer of some sorts after all, right?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card, it takes about 15 seconds for the transaction.

Chipped card is last decade bro.
My card has an NFC tag for purchases below $20.

I could've done the entire transaction in my head and had the change in the customer's hands in less than ten seconds.

You wouldn't even have the money in your hand by the time I am done with my purchase.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[AHuxley]

Governments get to know what your buying.
Governments get to stop tax avoidance on every transaction.

On some type of pension?
Governments get to set up no buy lists. No alcoholic beverages. No smoking. Buying magazines and publications gets totally restricted. No gambling on a pension. No holidays to other nations.
Spending on education gets more support. Stop attending approved education and the gov support stops.
The obligations to keep getting support on an allowance card start to become a long list.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do you live to have enough cash at home to pay for a lawyer? (Specific address would be helpful.)

Also, I'm pretty sure Sweden has a legal system that isn't pay to win.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[thegarbz]

Why would you want a cashless society? Having the ability to pay in cash doesn't require you to do so yourself.

Depends who you are. Having the ability to pay cash requires you to cover the expenses of handling cash. Businesses are proponents of cash-less systems as it reduces the cost of handling and banking cash, increases security through theft avoidance (both external and via employees), and also reduces time.

From a personal point of view I hate handling cash with a passion. I don't carry any on me unless I travel to a card-unfriendly country. The only cash I have around me is a few coins for the occasional parking meter. ... again not in my own country because there I pay for parking through a phone app. Choice is nice enough to have, but on the same token I don't want to subsidise it with my time and (in an ideal fairy land) the savings would be passed down to me too. The biggest benefit I saw going cashless is with public transport. It's amazing how buses started running on time when they stopped accepting money by completely eliminating a large variability in the time it took to board people.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[thegarbz]

As a former cashier, I could've done the entire transaction in my head and had the change in the customer's hands in less than ten seconds.

As a former cashier you're not normal. What happens in the real world is a person spends some 15 seconds fucking around with their wallet and counting out before handing it to a cashier who as a professional math whizz will have it counted and change returned in mere seconds.

Cashiers aren't the holdup.

By the way what the hell takes you 15 seconds? For transactions under €25 it takes me less than 3 seconds to pay including the delay it takes to authorise. For over €25 it takes maybe 6 seconds. The only time I've waited 15 seconds behind anyone cashless is if they managed type in the incorrect pin or their card was declined, and even then the former only on a system where the incorrect pin ends the transaction (i.e. not any supermarket lane).

There's a reason supermarkets introduced "cashless" lanes. They move MUCH faster.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Show card, cashier activates terminal -> 3 seconds. Hell this is pretty much the default here in Belgium.
Insert card, enter pin -> 5 seconds.
Transaction complete -> 2 seconds.

Total of 10 seconds. It's mostly the old farts that still pay cash here and it usually goes like this.

Hear the amount they need to pay, start grabbing their wallet -> 3 seconds.
Start looking for the right notes -> 3 seconds
Look for the exact and closest amount of change they have -> 15 seconds
realise they can't pay the exact amount and give the closest amount over -> 10 seconds
receive change -> 5 seconds.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[thegarbz]

Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company

Maybe in your country. In mine:

Having debit cards is essentially free. Having credit cards has a very tiny surcharge thanks to none of these stupid packages offered by every credit card company as a reward that are passed on to the shop which is passed back onto the consumer who thinks they got something out of the deal. The risk of credit card fraud is essentially zero with modern chip+pin and where it exists the consumer is 100% protected.

By comparison dealing with cash involves handling cash which involves auditing cash, maintaining a float, and the latest craze it costs money to actually visit the bank because now the bank needs to deal with it as well.

Cash is FAR more expensive.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

That tinfoil hat looks good on you!

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you want a cashless society? Having the ability to pay in cash doesn't require you to do so yourself. I can't wrap my head around the fact that there are some people who actively want fewer choices even when the alternative options require nothing from them in terms of action or cost. Even from a business owner's perspective, there's nothing that says your business has to accept cash payments, unless there's some obscure Swedish laws of which I'm unaware.

Ideology, I suppose, and a wish to be able to account for all financial transactions, even the smallest. Whether it is actually practical or desirable is another matter, of course. As for why people would want fewer choices, that is simple enough to answer: convenience. Nowadays, when you go to a supermarket in many places, all you need to do is wave your card at a card reader, which is obviously much easier than having to count out the correct number of coins and notes. And with payment methods like wechat (the only one I have experienced so far), where you scan a QR code and accept a payment, this is available even with no specialised terminal.

I think the two main reasons why people resist getting rid of cash are sentimentality - I still gets nostalgic about seeing coins from the good ol' days - but the main reason is distrust of the new. We don't feel entirely convinced that we can trust the operators of these rather opaque services, that we can't quite understand. I think most people see companies like Google, ebay, Apple and others like them as greedy and unscrupulous, even more so than banks; plus, on top, none of them offers a universal service, which means you can end up not being able to pay in some places. Only plastic cards are (almost) universally accepted, but they are not entirely geared towards micro-payments.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Government can shut down your existence with the flick of a switch.

And you cannot even take a taxi to the lawyer, let alone pay the lawyer.

Anyone who trusts the government so much to let them control all aspects of defense concerning physical, legal, regulatory threats against them has had ZERO history knowledge of the 19th century and / or is what we call the "sheeple". Unironically. Letting government control the means of defense against the government is a critical failure in rational thinking.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

On some type of pension?

Governments get to set up no buy lists. No alcoholic beverages. No smoking. Buying magazines and publications gets totally restricted. No gambling on a pension. No holidays to other nations.

Spending on education gets more support. Stop attending approved education and the gov support stops.

The obligations to keep getting support on an allowance card start to become a long list.

I feel sorry for you living in such a country. However, Sweden is not one of them.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

How does the phone/bank/whoever know the amount I want to pay?

At many shops, the price is embedded in a QR-code that appears on a LCD screen. You just scan it and tap to confirm. At low end shops, such as street stalls without electricity, there is a fixed QR-code sticker and the vendor just tells you the price. You key it in and tap your fingerprint to authorize.

I guess the shop needs a networked computer of some sorts after all, right?

No. In theory, the merchant can just look at your phone to see that the transaction completed. In practice, they will usually also have their cell phone which will display the completed transaction. Everything is cell phone based, and there is no wired network, nor even a need for electricity other than your cell battery.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[jenningsthecat]

For governments, cashless means unprecedented control. You know, civil forfeiture with less smell of "the government is stealing from me!" Which is exactly why economists are creaming their pants at the idea. Bank problem? Just steal everybody's bank balances and done. Bank runs? Impossible because without cash nobody can get their money out. Monetary policy, no matter how onerous, becomes much easier to just force onto the population. And so on.

This one argument alone is far more important and compelling than all your other ones put together. And it's ironic that some of us here who have been so against DRM, SaaS, Facebook and Google, are either blase about or actively support the demise of cash money. As far as I'm concerned they are all of a piece. They are all examples of the powerful extending their control further and further over every aspect of our lives. Ultimately, they all reduce our freedom and our autonomy. It seems that some here are equating convenience and flexibility with freedom. Please let me know how that works out for you when you reach the end of your leash - if you're not being choked so hard that all you can do is gasp.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[BadDreamer]

With cash you need physical security, fraud checks to make sure employers do not skim money, protection when transporting money to the bank, safes for overnight storage of cash registers.

Handling cash is extremely expensive. All you need for credit cards is a card reader and a phone.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

They recently added that you need to have a Unionpay card connected to your Wechat in order to do Hong Bao transfers which has prevented me from using this convenient form of payment :-/

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

Surcharges have decreased

In China, they have gone to zero. There are no cashless transaction fees as far as I can see. The amount received is alway exactly the same as the amount sent.

I guess they make money on the data, and on the float. If a billion users each have $1000 CNY ($150 USD) in their account, that is a trillion CNY ($150B USD) of float. The data must also be worth a lot. Google makes billion and billions, and knowing my search terms is a lot less useful than knowing what/when/where I buy. So the data collected by Tencent and Alibaba must be worth even more.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually went to my favorite store yesterday and there was a sign: "Computers down, Cash only".

I think that answers every question.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[mapkinase]

>Why would you want a cashless society?

Because it will cost money to society to support an option of cash

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[JaredOfEuropa]

You wouldn't even have the money in your hand by the time I am done with my purchase.

Isn't that called shoplifting?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

China did what after the places changed?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Hognoxious]

It's America's job to "fix" every country on the planet.

Don't exaggerate. Not every country.

Just the intersection of "has oil" and "complement of (has nukes)".

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a dog.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Hognoxious]

Of all those transactions, this many involved cash: 0.

Even the hookers, blow and blackjack?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Applehu Akbar]

Sure, that's why all the new point-of-sales terminals have the Look Like A Total Douche symbol on top so I know where to rest my iPhone. Much faster than using chip cards.

Meanwhile, what actually burns up time at the checkout is waiting for Greatest Generation Great Grandma to haul out her checkbook, laboriously write out her fiscal epistle, and get it approved by a manager.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure about swedish law specifically, but "legal tender" means that if I have a debt with you, I can settle it with legal tender (cash), and you have to accept it.

Businesses are free to accept credit cards or not, accept barter or not, but accepting cash is a must.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Daralantan]

Why would you want a cashless society?

I seem to recall a year or so ago India was talking about going cashless. A bunch of people at the time in various charity groups were worried this was their "attempt to wipe out the poor," or whatever because beggars couldn't get money, and volunteers at charity groups couldn't get paid daily via cash. I think at the time the worry about that also stemmed from India shutting down a small number of foreign run orphanages that were ran by various churches and charities basically saying "This isn't a service we are interested in," as the reason why. The main reason I remember there being shock about it was one of the orphanage groups was taking care of something near 2,000 children?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.

Not in my experience.

You should get a passport and expand your experiences. There are many things America does well. Consumer retail transactions are not one of them. The rest of the world is WAY ahead.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut? And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?

Not sure about Sweden, but in the UK most places now do contactless EMV transactions with either a phone or a card. If you use a card, you just put it on the terminal and about a second later it beeps and it's done. If you use a phone, it's the same thing but you have to touch the fingerprint sensor as well (for Apple Pay, I've never seen anyone use Google Pay). I prefer to have a separate physical token that doesn't have the ability to run malware, so I don't use the phone, but with the card it takes less time than for cash:

• Both need me to get my wallet out of my pocket.
• Both need me to get something out of my wallet.
• Only cash requires me to get out a quantity that differs depending on my final amount (so I can't get it out until that's calculated).
• Both require me to hand something over, but in the case of the card I just tap it on the reader for a second, for cash I hand it across the counter or feed it into a machine.
• Only cash requires someone to calculate change and give it to me.

My local convenience has self-service checkouts and it takes their UI a couple of seconds to step through the payment screen. I pop my card on the card reader before I tap the last step of the UI and it's done by the time I reach over to pick it up again.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

Let me guess, you live in the USA, which got the old and crappy contactless terminals that other countries had discarded and then connected them to an archaic banking network that was quickly overwhelmed. In the UK and everywhere I've been in Europe, you put the card on the reader, a second later it beeps, and you're done. It takes less time than handing over cash, so even if there's no change and the cashier puts it in the till instantly, it's still faster.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

Of all those transactions, this many involved cash: 0.

Even the hookers, blow and blackjack?

You have to go to Macau for blackjack. The hookers on Nanjing Lu (a huge pedestrian mall in downtown Shanghai) accept cashless transactions. Why not? Cash transactions are especially dangerous in their profession.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[tinkerton]

It's pretty simple. Cashless is convenience and if you trust the system that is good value. If you do not trust the system the current one or a possible future one, then cashless means relinguishing control, especially if you lose the option to freely use cashless (that is, with a low threshold, so it has to be easy). Multiple players love getting that control. It means having a record of all your transactions, and having the option to make money with them in all possible manners, including negative interests, and it means you can lock people out as well. There's a lot of power involved and the case of India has shown that the big players are willing to take draconian measures at the expense of a lot of people, hence the name 'the war on cash'.

My point of view is that on principle you need checks and balances to avoid large concentration of power and cash is part of that.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

There was an article about this on Slashdot a few years ago. It's not so clear cut. If you handle cash, there are a bunch of extra costs. You must store it securely, you must transport it securely to the bank, you must pay higher insurance premiums for cash on the premises, you must balance all of your tills, and so on. When the study was done, these costs are lower than the card surcharge for companies with a very low turnover, but I think the break-even point was around $100K, at which point taking cards became cheaper.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I don't trust contactless EMV cards' security, both with the ability to protect my cash and the ability of people to track my presence from afar with specialty readers. I do like chip cards over the magnetic stripe.

And certainly, securing a phone with a fingerprint, giving my fingerprints to Apple/Google, and having a phone capable of running malware (as opposed to being a phone) all seem stupid. To say nothing of making part of my day an unpaid minimum wage worker at a self-service checkout, as opposed to doing anything else, e.g. reading.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

Enabling the card reader is a single button press on most tills, and is now the default here on more modern ones, with the cashier having to press a 'cash payment' button if you want to take it. Tapping the card on the contactless reader means moving your hand less far towards the person than if you were handing them cash, because the reader is right next to you, and then it takes about a second to validate and you're done. If it's taking more than a second, that implies that the store is still using a modem to dial up. The long delays that we used to have that mostly went away 10-15 years ago were caused by the terminal having to dial a phone line to handle the authentication. If it's over £30, you need to put the card in and enter the PIN, but that only adds another 3-4 seconds (typical PINs are 4 digits, and take less than a second per digit to type, inserting the card maybe takes another second).

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[houghi]

So you are actually complaining about 5 seconds. My experience with cash and caslesss, be it ewith pin ir swiping, is about the same time. If they verify if money is real, money is much slower.
To me fasterst is pin, then cash then swiping. But these are not actually measured and the difference is small.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Kopp]

you're assuming that any kind of cashless transaction is always free, and will forever be. As far as i know, it is not. You need to pay for the equipment, then per transaction, or a percentage of the amount. Especially, once cash is out, what would prevent those prices from increasing ?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese woman I work with says the homeless there have dogs with "jackets" that have QR codes on so you can scan the dog to give the homeless some money.
Apparently mugging people for money in China is pointless now because of the lack of cash people carry.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wait. Once you have given such power to the government, it will be used.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[AmiMoJo]

The government encourages it too, because aside from the surveillance it also means that people pay sales tax.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[houghi]

Just went to a store. Swiping was much faster. Have been doing it wrong before. Swiping took about 2 seconds, if that. I just already held my card to the machine while the cashier was entering the two items I bought. He pressed enter. I got an OK in about 2 seconds (perhaps faster) and took my items.
With a pin I would have just put it in when I got the ok and enter the PIN. Total time about 10 seconds. With cash I need to hand over the money, vashier needs to take it, grab that change, hand that back. I check it.

PIN is mnuch faster. At least when you are not in the US where they have apparently a non-standard system compared to the rest of the world.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[houghi]

Cash requires time and money as well. If you are a store, you need to count the money at the end of the day. You need to bring it to a safer place (most likely a bank). Human error will be easier to happen. If a customer notices an error in his favour, you take the loss. If he sees am error in his disadvantage, you take the blame and it will cost extra time.
If you have a large store, you will be a higher target to holdups and that will cost money and to prevent it, security measures.
cash handeling is much more expensive than what you think.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

End well? We are far from the end and already all is far from well.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I can't wrap my head around" - you are another living proof of how stupid societies are...

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Trailer Trash]

Cash if FAR cheaper. Having to accept credit cards entails a hefty surcharge by the credit card company, as well as a delay in getting paid, and the additional risk of credit card fraud. While a debit card is faster and cheaper it still involves network fees and equipment rental and service.

Let me explain the free market to you. If you want to know how much cash costs, look at what credit card processors charge.

Cash isn't cheaper, it costs the same. The issues are employee theft (which is minimized by current cash registers), but more importantly theft in general. Then there's the issue of getting the cash to the bank. For a smaller store, that typically entails an employee putting it in a brown bag and trying to discretely walk to their car and then go dump it in the depository. They are prone to robbery. For larger stores, they have to pay an armored car service to deliver the cash to the bank. The chance of robbery is smaller but the armored car service costs money. And either way you go there's insurance to cover theft and robbery, which costs money.

So, no. Ironically, taking cash also costs money.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card, it takes about 15 seconds for the transaction.

Countries currently going "cashless" are not doing it with chipped cards. You pay with your phone. Scan, tap, go.

Maybe I'm old, or a luddite... but I don't trust that sort of technology on my phone. I will probably one of the last to adapt to that. I'm basically cashless already though, I almost never carry cash.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Chipped card is last decade bro.
My card has an NFC tag for purchases below $20.

Chipped cards only just arrived in the US a year or two ago. Last decade everywhere else, but the US tends to move slowly compared to other countries with technology like this.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[BlueStrat]

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone,

"Phone"?

What phone?

Mine is at home. It has AT&T stamped on it. It's plugged into the wall.

Do you mean a "smartphone"?

Can't afford one. Don't want one. I'm not some creature on "Animal Planet" to be fitted with a tracking device. I'm certainly not going to pay to become one.

I guess if/when the US goes "cashless" I'll go "criminal". Hijack a food truck, take what I need, and drive the truck and the rest of the food into the river. Rinse & repeat for clothing and other goods.

I'll be like the "Edgar Friendly" character, one of the "Scraps" from the Stallone film "Demolition Man".

And you all will be the 47 year-old virgins in gray pajamas soaking in a bubble bath, drinking a broccoli milkshake and singing "I wish I was an Oscar-Meyer Wiener" and thinking happy, happy thoughts.

Strat

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

and working internet connection and electricity

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Malc]

This is all great... once weâ(TM)re cashless youâ(TM)ll love the convenience of negative interest rates or addition transaction taxes or fees.

Iâ(TM)ve gone back to using cash. Itâ(TM)s really not that inconvenient. And if you choose human interaction instead of the checkout machines, not only will you be annoyed less by the irritating machine, youâ(TM)ll have time to pack your bag whilst somebody faster and more efficient scans it and have some fun calculating the perfect amount to get fewer coins back in your change. Oh, and a moment of human interaction.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think it's best that the government think for you stfu i don't care if you never use cash i do and cash does not = crime you twit cash = legal tender.
Utterly baffling how people want to trust credit card scum with not only every transaction but also to limit where you spend your money.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

If using a credit card, in my experience chip cards are slower in the US than in Europe. I've also seen Square take a really long time when swiping; I'm not sure why, but I'm assuming poor wireless signal or similar - in a typical retail location that's not an issue though.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry but this is wrong in Europe. Around here we use debit cards, not credit cards and our shop for example pays a grant total of.. 5 CENTS per transaction. If you are the kind of shop with less big and more small sales (we are a dive shop) there are monthly payments of around 50 euro for unlimited transactions. This part is the same in all of Europe.

Depositing cash, costs money here for companies unto business accounts this might be different in Sweden. That said I am against going cashless, I'd rather not be forced to have to trust a goverment that has proven it can be corrupt.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

securing a phone with a fingerprint, giving my fingerprints to Apple/Google

That's not how those readers work.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

ShanghaiBill's cellular network, backhaul, and towers run on rainbows.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ve3oat]

And what did you do when there was a flood or hurricane or other unexpected event and the power went off -- for more than just a few minutes? How did you buy stuff then?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Hognoxious]

I think there should be a "ummm, so I'm told" in there somewhere.

What does it show up on your statement as?

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[stabiesoft]

And everything about your transaction was tracked. Who bought, what you bought, what time, what location, and now that has been connected with everything else you have bought and where it was bought for your entire life with non-cash. At least with cash, they need to use some form of facial recognition system. Don't believe this info is valuable? Then why did/do so many companies have loyalty cards? I do not look forward to this 1984 everyone is so anxious to achieve.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen brother.

A cashless society is a slave society. This is especially true if it's based on Blockchain or something similar.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary, if you get social welfare support in Sweden, it includes the costs for such things as magazines and newspapers. If you want to buy a lottery ticket, that's no problem at all. Of course, if you are a addict going to casinos then you will be forced to seek professional help. Regarding pensions, the government cannot and does not limit what you do with it. It is considered income just like salary.

Sorry to hear that you live in a shithole country like Trump put it.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

I don't trust contactless EMV cards' security, both with the ability to protect my cash and the ability of people to track my presence from afar with specialty readers. I do like chip cards over the magnetic stripe.

The protocol has a few issues, but is not too bad. The physical security is potentially an issue, but all newer cards here support it so you can carry the card in a wallet that blocks the signal if you're paranoid and if you don't then not using it doesn't prevent anyone from scanning the card in your pocket. It's more secure against some threat models than using a chip and PIN, because now you're not entering anything into the merchant's terminal. Your card and the bank are communicating via the EMV protocol, and it's up to the protocol's security to worry about it.

From the perspective of liability, it's better because the burden of proof is 100% with the card issuer for contactless payments. If you contest a charge then they are required to reverse it immediately.

And certainly, securing a phone with a fingerprint, giving my fingerprints to Apple/Google, and having a phone capable of running malware (as opposed to being a phone) all seem stupid.

Not sure about Google, but the Apple implementation runs the EMV protocol and the fingerprint comparison in the Secure Element. This is a small ARM core with some private memory (which isn't addressable by the rest of the system) running a tiny microkernel OS and a small set of security services. When you put your fingerprint on the scanner, it's sent to the SE, which then simply returns true or false to the OS querying if things should be unlocked. If the payment application is running then all the code running on the application core on iOS is doing is telling the code on the SE to run an EMV transaction. The code on the SE will then run the entire EMV transaction, using keys that are not accessible to iOS or any software running on top of iOS.

To say nothing of making part of my day an unpaid minimum wage worker at a self-service checkout, as opposed to doing anything else, e.g. reading

I've no idea what this means.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, You mean Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Wall Street are clean?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card, it takes about 15 seconds for the transaction.

That's bizarre. Here (UK) it takes literally 1-2s for a contactless transaction (£30 or less) and less than 5s for a chip-and-pin transaction. You or your country are doing something seriously wrong...

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that's exactly what a crypto currency does.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[geoscodin]

$23.05? Hang on. I have a nickel here somewhere.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, don't you find that drastic change to be... odd?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad you higher criminals to work for you.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[houghi]

Uh, no. The store does not keep the cardnumber. So they have no way to link it and if they did, it will cost them a LOT of monies. The card companie knows where I bought, but not what. In Belgium they are not allowed to analyze this data. Both companies are not allowed to sell this data.

The reason they do have loyalty cards is so they are able to link your purchases to you as a customer because they can not do it otherwise.

I do not use a loyalty card for that reason.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Easier for you is not always better for you.

You need to remember there are TWO kinds of money.

Type 1 is Cash, and it includes bullion, credit cards, could even include chickens if you use them to buy things.

Type 2 is CONTROL. Power over services and people is exactly how people become Kings, Queens and Dictators. It's also how one establishes a monopoly resulting in a Central Bank, Single phone company, or utility company, or other essential service you must have in order to survive, but you now have to agree to their "terms and conditions".

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[ShanghaiBill]

I think there should be a "ummm, so I'm told" in there somewhere.

On Nanjing Lu the working girls can be pretty aggressive. If you are an obvious tourist, they will walk right up to you and ask if you want a "massage" in your hotel room. I usually reply "Wo mei you qian" (I have no money), to which they reply "You can pay with WeChat".

What does it show up on your statement as?

It would list her name, just like in any other peer-to-peer transaction.

Unlike in English, most Chinese names are not gender specific. Chinese pronouns also have no gender when spoken (but do when written), so it is common to have a long conversation about a third person and still have no idea if you are discussing a man or a woman. That is almost impossible in English.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, the old 'legal tender' crap.

OK, here we go. Legal tender applies (as you say) when you are in *debt*, for example, you have eaten a meal *before* paying.

It does *not* apply when buying goods at a till. There is no *debt* involved. You give them payment, and *then* the goods are yours. You are free to *offer* them cash, they are free to *refuse* and keep the the goods.
This is how legal tender works.

This means that *most* businesses are free to *refuse* cash.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we use those also, or just use a QR code via cell phone.

In a true cashless society, those that control the cashless currency can tack on any fees they want, set the tax rate to 99% if they want, or even double or triple a price on you just because you are not in your home town. And there is NOTHING you can do about any of it, all because you accepted cashless society.

But more and more Americans are waking up to the fact that cashless results in slavery to those that control the electronic cash, so we use cash more and more, and many of us now accept Gold or Silver bullion.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Whorhay]

You must have some fast terminals or networks in your area. Where I live the chip card transactions always feel like they take forever. A number of places I frequent actually reverted to the old system because it was holding up the line too much during the lunch rush.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.

You may find that the fees for cashless transactions roughly cancel out that "advantage".

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

I don't disagree that there are reasons to prefer cash, but convenience is not one of them.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[PopeRatzo]

Meanwhile, what actually burns up time at the checkout is waiting for Greatest Generation Great Grandma to haul out her checkbook, laboriously write out her fiscal epistle, and get it approved by a manager.

If you get that upset about the time it takes an old woman to write a check, you seriously need to relax. Don't rush through life. If the pressure of your job has you depressed, try offering to carry that little grandma's groceries to her car. Talk to her. Be respectful of other people. You'll live longer.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

New AC. Just wanted to say that I appreciate your polite explanations of it all when everyone you are replying to probably already made up their mind about the whole thing before you ever said anything.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[chiefcrash]

Credit card fraud is an AMERICAN problem. In other countries I can't spend your money just by providing semi-public information. Only Americans believe that is "the way it is supposed to be".

Not really: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/c...

And then, when it comes to debit card fraud, the United States comes in fourth place with 20% of consumers there reporting fraud in the last five years. That's behind 25% in Mexico, 24% China and 21% in India. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2012/10/22/countries-with-the-most-card-fraud-u-s-and-mexico/#6adaafb14708)

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

That all sounds much more intrusive and time consuming than good ol' cabbage.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[stabiesoft]

So I just looked at a Frys receipt from yesterday, paid via chip cc. On the paper receipt is my name and last 4 digits of my cc. Hmm, do you think maybe Frys has my info? Would they have my info if I had paid cash?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, seems like we do things only because we can and never ask whether we should.

If it doesn't enhance my quality of life -- indeed, degrades it -- I don't want it.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Mjlner]

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone

I can just wave my phone? Do I have to flip it open, or can I leave it shut?

Flip open? You know, there hasn't been a phone you can (or need to) "flip open" on the Swedish market for ten years.

And how do I pay to refill the phone with the phone?

You don't need to refill your phone. The money does not reside in your phone, it's on your bank account.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

F^ck the banks. You want cashless? Use Bitcoin. Protect your privacy and cut those parasites out.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[CrimsonAvenger]

And what did you do when there was a flood or hurricane or other unexpected event and the power went off -- for more than just a few minutes? How did you buy stuff then?

Like Katrina, you mean? I got in my car, and drove up to my parents' house. Using a credit card to buy gas in northern Alabama, same place as I always buy gas when going to the parentals'.

Oddly enough, Katrina didn't knock out power in TN, so it wasn't really much of an issue...

Yeah, I suppose it's possible to find a situation where a power outage is so widespread that you can't just drive away from it. But I've never seen one in half a century plus....

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Khyber]

"What happens in the real world is a person spends some 15 seconds fucking around with their wallet "

This applies in any case, as the idiot customer fumbles around for the card they should've had in their fucking hands while approaching the register.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Khyber]

" less than 5s for a chip-and-pin transaction."

I'm guessing you've never run a register with elderly people in line.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[wyHunter]

And, why do you want to give banks some percentage of every transaction you make? And why do you want your personal info of what you've purchased to be data mine-able?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't sound very secure since possession of the card is all one needs to begin making purchases.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[F.Ultra]

Yep we have those in Sweden as well. Contactless VISA can be done without entering PIN if the amout is at or below 200 SEK (~19€). At some places it even takes sub-second to use contactless.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[F.Ultra]

Here in Sweden we have chipped cards, with PIN it takes less than 15 seconds and if the terminal supports contact less it takes even less, especially if the amount is below 200 SEK (roughly 19 EUR) you don't have to enter your PIN on contact-less. I have not used cash in years here, because card is so much easier and faster than cash.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[lgw]

We care less and less about oil these days. We'll probably exit the Trump years with minimal oil imports, possibly as a net exporter of oil (as we already are for other fossil fuels). That should bring a welcome change to our foreign policy priorities.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[oakgrove]

Well good for you and who gives a fuck? You people sure do like to crow about the most irrelevant shit in the tireless effort to sniff your own farts. More topically, when I go to Starbucks, they scan a QR code on my phone. It takes about a second. Same at chic-fi-la. When I get gas, there's an NFC reader on the pump and I just bump the tag on my keychain against it. Basically instant. The only place that's inexplicably slow is Target. Stick the card in the chip reader, wait for a ding. That probably takes 5 or 10 seconds. What makes everything slow more than anything else? The human factor of the person in front of me taking their sweet ass time. tl;dr Stick Europe up your ass.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you but I'm tired of having every move I make and every penny I spend tracked by the bank and by extension the government which among other very good reasons I stopped using plastic for everything and started using cash for everything I possibly can, which means everything I do in person. It's nobodys business where I get my groceries, where I fill the fuel tank of my vehicle, or where/when/what of anything I purchase. In the process I dramatically reduce my 'silhouette' so far as rampant data breaches go, therefore I'm far less likely to get my bank account drained because some fucktarded point-of-sale company couldn't secure their systems properly, and then there's the nice side benefit of balancing my checking account at the end of the month only takes about 5 minutes. As soon as I can find a way to buy things online without using my credit or debit card I'll add that to the mix too, reducing my silhouette down to basically zero.

Posted as AC because I don't need my inbox inundated with retarded comments about how I'm going to 'get robbed', 'am a luddite', or any of the other usual nonsense posts like this from me usually elicit.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[superdave80]

Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs.

The time difference between a 'wave your phone' transaction and a pay cash transaction is so minimal that I doubt you could ever measure the cost difference.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Jesus_666]

I'm from Germany, actually. Our cashiers are damn fast so there's not much of a speed bonus to going cashless. Maybe if you use your phone and have it auto-approve every transaction but we're still talking a few seconds here. I'll stick with cash.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[aliquis]

Same as with freedom of speech, information transparency, raising support for a political opinion and as such democracy itself.

With restrictions everywhere we aren't living in a democracy.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Jesus_666]

Single button press, yes. But then the till takes a few seconds each to enable the card reader and deal with the completion of the transaction because the POS system is, well, a POS. Like many POS systems are. Of course some stores are faster than that but, well, our cashiers are super fast already so even a substantial improvement over cash doesn't save a significant amount of time.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Sesostris III]

Both may be convenient, but cash is a lot easier to budget with. All I need to do is look at my wallet to see how much I've got left of may allocated weekly spend!

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

For businesses, storing, processing or transmitting credit cards or debit cards = crime.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

but all newer cards here support it so you can carry the card in a wallet that blocks the signal if you're paranoid

I thought all RFID cards could be blocked by the proper wallet. Certainly I certainly know they market a lot of blocking technology. But I consider those akin to ad-blockers on the browser - sure they protect me, but take some amount of effort on my part. And since I'm not sure what benefits EMV has (I'll follow below), I just seem them as an extra cost.

. It's more secure against some threat models than using a chip and PIN, because now you're not entering anything into the merchant's terminal. Your card and the bank are communicating via the EMV protocol, and it's up to the protocol's security to worry about it.

I thought the chip was securely communicating with the bank. Like, it was drawing power from the terminal and encrypting data on the card itself. (And signing the cost.) Therefore, unlike a magstripe, no reason to be wary about inserting it in the card into a terminal. And I like it because I have to insert it into the terminal to make it communicate, not just have it unprotected in near someone who wants to scan it.

From the perspective of liability, it's better because the burden of proof is 100% with the card issuer for contactless payments. If you contest a charge then they are required to reverse it immediately.

For once, the US wins on consumer protection. I have no liability (well, by law $50, but most providers don't even ask for that) on magstripe, chip or contactless. Unless I'm stupid enough to get a debit card.

I can see that being a valid reason to want to get an EMV, but not applicable to me.

the Apple implementation

I didn't know that. I do know that Apple is usually pretty good about privacy. That seems pretty secure.

I'm not sure if Google protects my fingerprint from themselves, but neither answer would surprise me (okay, the protection does.)

I don't like biometrics in general, and opt for passwords over biometrics whenever offered a choice. But I recognize its a choice that people disagree with me on.

To say nothing of making part of my day an unpaid minimum wage worker at a self-service checkout, as opposed to doing anything else, e.g. reading

I've no idea what this means.

I hate self-checkout. I'm doing a job that someone else could be doing, badly because they (rightly) don't trust their customers as much as their cashiers so make it more malice proof. Whereas with a cashier it takes a little longer, but they leave complimentary newspapers for me to read (or a book in my pocket) while someone else does the work. It's like being on a train over a driving to work - takes a little longer, but less mental effort. .And given the failure rates of the terminals, the "little longer" is not even something I really believe.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I will say (as the person he responded to) that my mind is probably pretty made up, but have changed it before. Usually in response to new information. And I've had long conversations on /. that got pretty interesting.

Also, get an account. Response notifications are good, and having a pseudonymous identity is good.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Hognoxious]

I wouldn't bet on it. As we speak someone's probably designing a V18 22l Hummer.

Because compacts are fer cormanusts and faggurts!

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

So in China (where they have no hackers), you're saying that nobody hacks wechat or cellphones or tries to hack wechat or cellphones?

Hmmmm. I'm not sure I find that very credible. Sorry not swallowing the YAY CHINA! propaganda.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Flip open? You know, there hasn't been a phone you can (or need to) "flip open" on the Swedish market for ten years.

And yet I can buy them today. It's sad that you have to run such a complex machine to get something as simple as phone service.

The money does not reside in your phone, it's on your bank account.

Well, I'm not going to text my bank data, it's not secure.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[lgw]

I did see a guy today clearly running errands while towing a boat. Not a problem as long as we drill, baby, drill. Though in reality hybrids and even full electric cars are becoming mainstream - fairly fast by the standards of change in the automotive world.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Cash has cost, but those costs are significantly lower than how high the plastic/EMV charges will become once cash isn't an option.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[thegarbz]

This applies in any case

Of course it does, but it takes a better class of idiot to be unable to handle a single piece of plastic compared to screwing around and counting bits of paper and small odd shaped pieces of coloured metal.

But regardless of what you (or I for that matter) *think*, the industry will speak for us. Cashless lanes are adopted primarily because they offer a much faster checkout process. They are adopted to reduce staff or in some stores to increase sales by increasing customer volume and preventing walkout.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Ichijo]

In the USA, civil forfeiture is a good argument for a cashless society.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear proles (lowercase intentional),

      Because "we're" all now totally cashless, and nobody can get mugged for their money, and our smartest computers take care of everything at lightning-speed so there's no waiting or errors, The State (uppercase MANDATORY) has determined that in the interests of a better, stronger, Mother Country (swedeland swedeland uber alles, and all) it is necessary for certain districts of the country to carry on commerce with just a slightly different currency valuation. There will also be slightly different valuations for particular levels of earning-power depending upon your occupation.

      We trust that you fully understand our reasons for this and look forward to participating in this Masterplan devised by Our Glorious Leaders. Should situations change, the new valuation rates may be posted on a website and it will be your responsibility to find the site and maintain awareness of such changes.

Kisses,
GOVERNMENT

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

but only one can pay a hooker without leaving a record for your wife.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[jwhyche]

I do the same thing with my bank balance open in a web browser and a spreadsheet. Doing a budget with cash doesn't make this any easier.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[jwhyche]

Countries currently going "cashless" are not doing it with chipped cards. You pay with your phone. Scan, tap, go.

I've been practically cashless for the last 10 years. I paid for everything with my debit card up until lately. I got the samsung pay app on my phone. I set it up just to try it out to see if it is more convenient. It is and now I pay for practically everything with a tap of my phone. It is faster and it is better.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[WorBlux]

A boat! HA!, sometimes I run errands with a 25,999 lb. vehicle... just don't tell the DOT I stopped and added 2 pounds of leather glove to my load.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[orlanz]

Sure but you will have multiple machines for one human cashier. If someone like this slows down that terminal, there are others to choose from, so the overall line isn't impacted.

The 4-8 machines + 1 human pump out far more shoppers than the 2 human express line at my local grocery stores. It's gotten to the point that people would rather join the 10 person self queue than the 2 person express queue.

The numbers are extremely in favor of cashless and self checkouts. Also, the stores can hire "clueless millennials" for cheap & high turnover rather than expert mathwizes.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't trust contactless EMV cards' security, both with the ability to protect my cash and the ability of people to track my presence from afar with specialty readers. I do like chip cards over the magnetic stripe.

And certainly, securing a phone with a fingerprint, giving my fingerprints to Apple/Google, and having a phone capable of running malware (as opposed to being a phone) all seem stupid. To say nothing of making part of my day an unpaid minimum wage worker at a self-service checkout, as opposed to doing anything else, e.g. reading.

I don't know about google, but on iPhone your fingerprint never leaves the Secure Enclave of the CPU. Never leaves the device, can never be queried or retrieved on the device whatsoever. The only possible software call is, "request fingerprint" and "did Secure Enclave say fingerprint is approved?"

Do you also not use a computer due to malware fears? I'd say iOS is even more secure than linux, and far far more secure than windows.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is all great... once weâ(TM)re cashless youâ(TM)ll love the convenience of negative interest rates or addition transaction taxes or fees.

Iâ(TM)ve gone back to using cash. Itâ(TM)s really not that inconvenient. And if you choose human interaction instead of the checkout machines, not only will you be annoyed less by the irritating machine, youâ(TM)ll have time to pack your bag whilst somebody faster and more efficient scans it and have some fun calculating the perfect amount to get fewer coins back in your change. Oh, and a moment of human interaction.

That sounds absolutely pathetically retarded. I've never been as annoyed by the self checkout machine as I am by the human cashier every single time I use one. Human cashiers are the worst.

I've never seen someone pack my groceries faster than I can.

Have fun calculating how to be a shit head and hold the line up for everyone behind you? I seriously hate seeing you old fucks whip out your coin purse and start counting pennies. Use a debit card so we can all get on with our lives.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[orlanz]

OMG, Target/ToyRUs/Sears, it just FEELS like you are shopping in the 1980s. Their system are so slow!!! And sometimes the reader has crashed so it asks you to fall back to swiping.

Walmart and CostCo used to be the same but are much faster these days. Even Kroger has upgraded their systems so you don't need to wait till the end of your checkout to authorize payment.

In the first two years it was horrible. You complete your checkout, wait, OK total, insert, swipe if they don't support it, wait, wait, pull, sign, wait, receipt... I don't know how any idiot thought that would be acceptable from a consumer view point.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[jwhyche]

By the way what the hell takes you 15 seconds? For transactions under â25 it takes me less than 3 seconds to pay including the delay it takes to authorise

That is been my experience. Most of the time when i pay for something with my phone. If it takes more than 10 seconds its because the cashier is staring at me wondering if I just paid for something with my phone.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[F.Ultra]

I think you really should stay away from the alt-right fake news mills, they have obviously taken their toll on you.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[jwhyche]

Cash requires time and money as well. If

But you can't stuff your mattress with cashless transactions and lay on it like old dragon. Also burying cashless transactions in old mason jars in the back yard is a pain in the ass. If you use a card then you have dig them all up every 2 or 3 years when they expire.

There is something to be said about a mattress stuffed with 100 dollar bills. Oddly, I can't think of any good ones at the moment.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Darinbob]

It means that when you give your grandkids a few euros for Christmas, it's going to be a lot less impressive. "Hej, Anders, I deposited twenty euros into your phone, God Jul!"

I did spend cash when I was in Finland. It has many advantages that a credit card does not have. It intrinsically limits your spending (a good thing). It's fast, faster than a credit card in m experience. There is no hidden 2% fee to use cash. Pulling out a credit card for a $2 purchase is just silly in my view. There are things credit cards are good for also, but I wouldn't want them to 100% supplant cash.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

What do people do when the government turns their money off?

If I'm holding cash you actually have to be physically present to pick my pocket. When there's no cash you can be robbed from across the World.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Darinbob]

What if you can't afford a phone? Smartphones are damn expensive.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[Darinbob]

But you have to trust these odd startup companies with your cash. I don't trust them. Everyone's spying on everyone, and since they're startups the security is abysmally bad. Too many people are just far too trusting with new technology. A little bit of Luddite paranoia is a good thing.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Darinbob]

In America these days, I am astounded by how many cashiers can't do the simple math of counting back change to you. These are very often part time minimum wage workers (because full time means you get union benefits). They've got a machine that tells them how much change to return and they follow that slavishly, even if they typed in the wrong amount and you have to argue to tell them that the machine is wrong and you should get back more than a dollar in change when you gave them a $20. I see cashiers even struggle counting the coins that I gave them.

They make mistakes, if I used a credit card they make mistakes on that also. Always get the receipt, if you just tap a phone and go, how do you knew whether it screwed up or not?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[lucm]

Oh, You mean Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Wall Street are clean?

Yes. Being greedy is not the same as being a criminal.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs."

Every place I go where they need me to use a fucking chipped card [...]

Are you in the US?

Because in a lot of other places contactless payments (for smaller amounts) have been around for quite a while. Heck, the US switched to chipped cards about a decade after Canada, and even we Canadians were late to the party compared to others.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[amiga3D]

I will not use an Android phone to do ANY financial transaction. It's not secure. All the people that get their accounts hacked where I work are the ones that like to wave their phone at a terminal. It works great I get it, until it doesn't and you have to call the bank because you got hit. No. I use a debit card for gas and big transactions. For all those under 20 bucks I've got cash.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Waccoon]

WeChat is like SMS, voice mail, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Skype, Facetime, PayPal, plus a lot more, all rolled into one app.

Sounds like the very definition of single point of failure. Do I really want my money, biometrics, family contacts, social media lumped together in one convenient database?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[darth.hunterix]

You sholdn't trust the magstripe - with every transaction it gives up all essential data and is immutable, so it's trivial to clone it. Meanwhile CTLS EMV uses RSA to uniquely sign every transaction, and transaction data includes unique random number, so even eavesdropping on communication between card and terminal is useless, because you cannot reuse the data (Assuming you own reasonably new card which supports DDA, old cards used SDA which is as shitty as magstripe, but SDA has been banned for years).

As for communicating with your card when it's not in use, while there are some attacks successfully performed in the lab, there hasn't been a single instance of executing them in real life, even against unprotected cards. And it's trivial to make communication with the card impossible: you can keep it wrapped in tinfoil (3 layers on both sides will suffice), buy fancy "card protector" lined with lead, or simply have two cards and keep them together. I worked with CTLS terminals for 5 years and I tested all 3 techniques and they all worked like a charm, fancy protector being the best and having two cards - the worst. Personally I use combination of second and third: I have two cards and each resides in fancy protector.

TL;DR: CTLS is superior to magstripe. You cannot secure magstripe - you can secure CTLS.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[thegarbz]

if you just tap a phone and go, how do you knew whether it screwed up or not?

Tapping the phone does not preclude you from looking at the EFTPOS machine to see how much you are about to be charged.

Re: Why would you want cashless?

[darth.hunterix]

Card number is stored in secure memory encrypted by AES and merchant has no way to access it. Last four number are gave up before encryption for your convenience, so you can link the receipt wit your card. You are right with the name, though, but most payment terminals I've encountered never even ask the card for that info. I worked in the industry for 5 years and generally speaking consumers consider having their name on the terminal or receipt "creepy", so it's not used. It's optional data anyway, not needed to complete the transaction.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[darth.hunterix]

Some transactions can be processed offline and send to the bank in batch once a day. Most common form are contactless transactions below certain limit There are other options, which are allowed by EMV standard, but I've never seen them in the field. Of course ignorance is not a proof, so they may be out there :)

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

No more insecure than cash. If someone steals my wallet, they can use the card for small purchases or the cash. The difference is that the with the cash it's gone, with contactless it's the bank's liability and they will refund any transactions. It's also limited to a relatively small number of transactions per day and to £30 per transaction. The bank system may also decline contactless and require a PIN if they detect unusual purchase patterns.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

I thought the chip was securely communicating with the bank. Like, it was drawing power from the terminal and encrypting data on the card itself. (And signing the cost.) Therefore, unlike a magstripe, no reason to be wary about inserting it in the card into a terminal. And I like it because I have to insert it into the terminal to make it communicate, not just have it unprotected in near someone who wants to scan it.

Two issues. The first is that there are some flaws in the EMV protocol. The most glaring is that, whereas the card authenticates itself to the bank, the bank does not authenticate itself to the card. That makes it possible for the terminal to launch MITM attacks. The card reader is not intended to be a trusted part of the system, but that means that you're entering the PIN into an untrusted device. That means that a thief can use a modified card reader to record your PIN, then steal the card. There are also some vulnerabilities in specific EMV implementations, for example some terminals use a simple incrementing counter for the 'unpredictable number.' This means that if you run one transaction you can predict the secret used in the next one and perform a replay attack.

I'm not sure if Google protects my fingerprint from themselves, but neither answer would surprise me (okay, the protection does.)

Google's problem is that they don't control the hardware. A few Android devices have something roughly similar to Apple's Secure Element (typically using TrustZone rather than a separate core), but most don't, and because the code that runs on it is provided by the vendor it doesn't integrate well with the OS.

I hate self-checkout. I'm doing a job that someone else could be doing, badly because they (rightly) don't trust their customers as much as their cashiers so make it more malice proof.

That depends on the shop. For example, Waitrose in the UK doesn't perform any of the weight checking that many of them use. This means that it's very quick. You might have more competent cashiers than I'm used to, but here they often don't pack things in a sensible order and they're not good at packing things into backpacks or pannier bags.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

My bank and credit card companies let me download my full transaction log, including amounts, times, and locations, so that I can see exactly where I have spent money. They let me download in the same format as my bank, so I can also see recurring payments in the same format. That makes budgeting a lot easier.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[darth.hunterix]

The only legal system that isn't pay to win is trial by combat. Naked.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Anonymous Coward]

your carelessness about a great many things, suggests to me that you were using an iPhone in China.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[mjwx]

Even from a business owner's perspective, there's nothing that says your business has to accept cash payments

But if few businesses accept cash, and you can't actually use cash to buy groceries, then you have a de facto cashless society.

For businesses, cash means crime. Both employee theft and robberies. Cash transactions are also slower than just waving your phone, which raises costs. Cashless self-checkout kiosks are cheaper and less error prone than those that handle cash.

That quote only shows you've never owned a business. For a business, cash is profitability. The problem with electronic payments is that they cost money. Yes, the bank charges you a fee for processing the transaction and if it was on credit, a percentage of the transaction. This can also delay the funds from reaching your account for several days. This means you need to raise your prices to compensate for the lost revenue which in turn causes a loss in revenue from higher prices.

Electronic transactions are by no means safe. If there is any ambiguity in the transaction, it's the merchant who has to wear all the costs.

Cash on the other hand is cheaper, less prone to chargebacks (errors in cash handling are rarer than chargebacks). All in all, it carries less risk.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[mjwx]

... and the additional risk of credit card fraud.

Credit card fraud is an AMERICAN problem. In other countries I can't spend your money just by providing semi-public information. Only Americans believe that is "the way it is supposed to be".

Incorrect. Electronic Transaction (card) fraud is a worldwide problem. Its not just limited to cards, but any form of transaction.

However American banks do make it easier.

Equipment needed to accept cashless payments in China: A sticker with a QR-code. Cost: 2 cents.

Asinine statements like this only demonstrate that you've drunk the cool-aid. I guarantee that you need more than a QR code and that someone is charging a fee for facilitating it. I can demonstrate this by asking... how do you get the electronic payment out of the QR code... Seeing as all you need is a QR code and not say... some kind of account.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[david_thornley]

You're naive. There's plenty more corrupt organizations out there. The US Federal Government is one of the less corrupt governments around. You pay what you're required to, and you get certain services.

Historically, taxes have gone up and down. If the government was always getting more, we wouldn't get any of that "down" stuff. Learn some history.

You have zero justification for violating the law because you choose to call some spending wasted. There's going to be some level of waste in any large organization (and most small ones), and people have a tendency to pick out spending they don't like and call it waste without further justification.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Archfeld]

Pot shops are not your average example. They can't deal with a bank as that is a federal entity and in the US despite state legalization the feds still call it illegal and any FDIC insured institution risks running afoul of federal regulation and fines.
The biggest problem a cannabis shop has is what to do with the cash.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[dcw3]

It's America's job to "fix" every country on the planet.

Don't exaggerate. Not every country.

Just the intersection of "has oil" and "complement of (has nukes)".

Oh, you mean like Vietnam, Korea, Grenada, Panama...

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[LunaticTippy]

Nope. These were talking about how happy they were that they can accept credit cards now. The merchant fees are cheaper than handling cash.

I also see a lot of new businesses that don't have cash registers and are plastic/phone payment only. The owners say it saves a lot of time/money.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[Archfeld]

I wonder if accepting credit cards and using the network might run afoul of federal wire fraud laws should the feds ever go back to actively pursuing cannabis crimes in states that have legalized or decriminalized pot ?

http://time.com/4685414/jeff-s...

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[RockDoctor]

Only cash requires me to get out a quantity that differs depending on my final amount (so I can't get it out until that's calculated).

You don't total up your shopping bill as you're going around the shop?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[TheRaven64]

Depends on how much I'm buying, but generally if it's more than a few items then no - I'll do a rough estimate, but I can't be bothered to count all the pennies.

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[jpaine619]

Nativity is the guy with his fingers in his ears pretending he can't hear reality.

How many hundreds of billions of dollars need the Pentagon "lose"?

How about insider trading? Are you aware that Congress specifically exempted itself from insider trading laws? i.e. if you approach your Congressman and ask him to push your business towards the Pentagon (for example), he can run out, but a shit load of your stock, "suggest" that the Pentagon gives you a nice fat juicy contract, and then when your stock price goes up, he can dump the stock for huge profits with no legal ramifications whatsoever.

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOT CORRUPT? If you or I did that, it's a trip straight to the big house (like Martha Stewart)

I suggest you read this if you don't believe me: https://www.techdirt.com/artic...

Only a complete idiot or tool thinks there is anything, at all, noble about our CURRENT government. yeah, a while ago, it was way less bad, but it gets worse year by year..

Remember the whole check kiting scandal of the 80's?

Re:Why would you want cashless?

[jpaine619]

Also, I gave you a moral argument and you respond with "legal". Legal is not moral and vice versa. Slavery was legal.. it was never right.

Forcing me to pay taxes that will be wasted is IMMORAL.

And don't give me this bullshit about "some waste". It's fucking endemic and epedemic to the system. The Pentagon (I like to pick on them, 'cause they are an easy target) can't account for $2.3 TRILLION. How the hell is that "some"?

Was it wasted? Who knows.. They sure as shit can't account for it.. So they can't say where it went.. This is not a small amount of money, it's quite nearly equal to the entire federal budget for a year.

To quote:

"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/t...

$2.3 trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America. Yeah.. that's "some"

Trusting the governement

[nonBORG]

Putting trust in the government is obviously flawed as we have historically seen that Governments even democratically elected governments can turn into crazy authoritarian socialist extremes trying to control everything especially all the people. I think I saw it in a movie a number of times too.

The government you have now is not the same as what you will have in the future, so get your guns, your cash and get ready!

Re: Trusting the governement

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash is not immune to government idiocy, as we've seen time and time again. Is it more resilient than electronics? Probably.

All cars are Ubers

[Anonymous Coward]

And all cars are Ubers because I was in [place] and only used Ubers....
And all accomodation are hotels, because I was in [place] and only used hotels....

The logic doesn't follow. Sure, if you stick to malls and public transport and so on, you can use Wepay or Alipay, LinePay etc. But its not as popular as cash and never likely will be.

Smaller business are run by their owners, and those business won't turn away customers with cash and lose those actual sales for some hypothetical loss of sales that doesn't affect their business because they are the owners.

Network outage? Out of business.
Customer has Wepay and you only accept Alipay and LinePay? Lost sale.
Customer has cash, lost sale.

Re:All cars are Ubers

[Martin Blank]

On the contrary, most small business that I see starting up are going cashless. This includes restaurants, a cheese shop, and a bakery. The hassle of storing, protecting, counting, and depositing cash are worth less than the potential lost sales. Almost everyone uses plastic now, and even the rare person who prefers cash usually has plastic to fall back on. Stores don't have to do much other than sell product and have the money deposited automatically into their accounts. The data feeds into accounting software automatically, further reducing their workload.

Network outages still occur, but are less of a factor as networks improve. It's been a long time since I've seen a down network in any of my travels. In those times, stores have to make a choice if the customer has been consumed the product, like at a restaurant. I imagine many of them will just ask people to pay the next time, trusting them to do so. Not all will, but enough will that the hit won't be too bad. They can also stop taking orders if they know that the network will be down for a while. Most stores can take a couple of hours of downtime, and those that can't weren't just on the cusp of making enough money to survive.

Globalists want cashless

[Anonymous Coward]

Because digitigal currency gives them easier control over the people. Cash is private. It's a good idea to use cash as much as possible. Unfortunately, stupid laws don't always make that possible, but for most purchases it certainly is.

Those levying the tax are the thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

Not paying a tax is not theft.

Those levying taxes are the thieves. They are highway robbers.

People pay taxes under coercion, like you would give a mugger your wallet.

Re:Those levying the tax are the thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

No, tax is something that we (society) agreed upon in exchange for other services. That is, we pooled some of our assets together to be able to build roads, hospitals and schools. Sure, some like this agreement more than others, and some, like you, don't like it at all. The mystery is why nutjobs like you don't move to some uninhabited corner of the world and live off the grid, only interacting with other nutjobs. Now let us, the rest of society, to be in peace, not needing to hear your tinfoil, paranoia-filled rants.

Re:Those levying the tax are the thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

The mystery is why nutjobs like you don't move to some uninhabited corner of the world and live off the grid, only interacting with other nutjobs.

If you're an American it doesn't matter where you live in the world, you still owe Uncle Sam taxes payable in US dollars. Technically speaking this is true even if you live on a ship in international waters year round and you and your fellow nutjobs conducted all transactions by bartering. Yes, bartering. The IRS considers relative value gained on a bartering transaction to be taxable, even if no cash changed hands. So we would perfectly happy to leave in peace and not bother you but you and your fellow citizens will not let us.

Re:Those levying the tax are the thieves

[Pfhorrest]

People don't go live off-grid because they're even more likely to get robbed there and even less likely to get anything in return for what's taken from them.

Giving someone something they didn't ask for after forcibly taking their money doesn't make it not theft. Even if it's something that they would have given money for voluntarily. The lack of choice is what makes it theft. By that standard, taxes are theft, because you don't get to decide that you would rather not have the services, and then get out of paying for them.

But that doesn't mean that we should immediately abolish all taxes and the government that depends on them, because in the absence of a government, another government would immediately spring up out of the power vacuum, and those are the worse kinds of governments: the kind made up of whoever is most powerful, who don't ask the governed for their opinion on anything and doesn't think they need to do anything to appease those governed.

But governments that want to stick around for a long time eventually figure out that giving the governed some say in things, and giving them some things in return, will help that government stay in power longer. It's still ultimately a group of people exercising violence to control other people. It's still not in and of itself good. But if that moderate evil is the only thing keeping a much worse evil from springing up out of the power vacuum, then far better to play along with the moderate evil.

And if that moderate evil can slowly be made less and less evil while still keeping the greater evils at bay, eventually you get a stable anarchy. Anarchy is the limit (in the mathematical sense) of good governance: what better and better governance converges toward. Part of figuring out how to achieve that will involve figuring out how to fund it without demanding the funds from people on threat of violence, i.e. without taxes. But until we can figure that out, paying taxes to support a somewhat decent government is a better compromise than going out where the figurative wolves will figuratively eat you alive.

Re:Those levying the tax are the thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

In that case, give up your US citizenship, and done!

Re:Those levying the tax are the thieves

[david_thornley]

"Theft" is not a useful word here. In a democracy, taxes are voluntarily imposed by the people of the country, so it's us enforcing our own rules on ourselves. If you don't like them, you're free to campaign against them. You don't actually have to pay taxes, but apparently you think it worthwhile to live in something like mainstream society and accept the benefits thereof.

Re:Those levying the tax are the thieves

[Pfhorrest]

It's not "voluntary" when some people make decisions for other people. The People collectively are not a person who can makes unitary decisions about only himself that can rightly be called voluntary.

As for moving somewhere else to not pay taxes, you seem to have missed the whole point of my post, which was that you can't. States tend to spring up wherever there are no states, and those states tend to tax. Even somewhere you might say has "no government" like Somalia, has a lot of small governments: every warlord was established his own little state, because warlords are the primitive form of states, and you bet your ass they tax their subjects, because that's what warlords do. The only choice anyone has is whether to live under that kind of state and accept the taxes they impose in exchange for nothing, or to live under this kind of state and accept the taxes that they at least use to buy gifts for their subjects (and even ask them what they want, how nice!) to appease them. The latter is clearly better than the former, but a choice between a brutal thief and a gentle thief still leaves no option but to get robbed.

Re:Those levying the tax are the thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you be robbed "off grid" when you are fully capable of using your own wits and strength to protect "your stuff" and not require some community paid (by taxes by another name) protection force, making it not theft to tax you for services, even when you don't need them.

Re:Those levying the tax are the thieves

[Pfhorrest]

You can be robbed "off grid" by whoever is more powerful than you, just like you can be robbed "on grid" by the more-powerful state. For almost everyone, anywhere they go there will be someone more powerful than them, and people who hold power over others almost always use that to steal from others, unless another power stops them, but then that power will be doing the stealing. It's virtually impossible to get away from theft, or violence in general, but some violent thieving overlords will be gentler than others, and if they're also keeping the more vicious ones away by their presence, they're the best option for most people.

Cash is king

[Khyber]

No matter what anyone says, when power goes out and communications infrastructure goes to shit or gets attacked, regular hard currency will still work until the human race forgets how to add and subtract.

Re:Cash is king

[Corbets]

until the human race forgets how to add and subtract.

Have you been to America lately?

Re:Cash is king

[Anonymous Coward]

If they manage to open their shops. It's amazing how many shops nowadays have roller shutters that they can't open or close without electricity.

Re: Cash is king

[Anonymous Coward]

Or until government prints too much, or falls apart, and your government issued money becomes worthless.

Re:Cash is king

[Actually, I do RTFA]

There was someone on slashdot who had invested heavily in bitcoin. He lived in Puerto Rico. He signed on shortly after the hurricane and had no way to buy goods (or maybe he had a little cash, but was very worried.).

Re:Cash is king

[Anonymous Coward]

No matter what anyone says, when power goes out and communications infrastructure goes to shit or gets attacked, regular hard currency will still work until the human race forgets how to add and subtract.

Without power the cash registry won't open.
It is still possible to jot down the card information and deal with it later since legit customers won't contest the charge. (Although a lot of shopkeepers doesn't know how this works.)

Re:Cash is king

[Trailer Trash]

No matter what anyone says, when power goes out and communications infrastructure goes to shit or gets attacked, regular hard currency will still work until the human race forgets how to add and subtract.

You apparently haven't used cash lately. The human race has pretty much forgotten how to add and subtract.

It's funny because, being old school, I have a pocket full of change and bills, and if I don't have exact change I typically give some change to minimize the change given back. About half of everyone under 30 just gives you a blank look or tries to explain that you screwed up the change when you do that.

Re:Cash is king

[Cro Magnon]

regular hard currency will still work until the human race forgets how to add and subtract.

I've seen stores close when their cash registers weren't working. I think the human race has already forgotten how to add and subtract.

Re:Cash is king

[Gilgaron]

When I was in school working fast food we only accepted cash. The "career" staff 30 and up could count back change easily, but anyone younger generally called upon myself or the other college/college bound staff for math help if they keyed in the wrong amount into the POS computer and had to figure out how much change to give back. The older folks tried to teach them how to count it back, the others of us were hard pressed to train them how to help themselves since we just did the math in our heads...some people the math curriculum just utterly fails, I guess. I'm sure it is worse now with less cash use.

Re:Cash is king

[Calydor]

That's what a locked box is for, along with the pen and paper you'd use ANYWAY.

At least then you have the cash on hand. Imagine the potential for credit card abuse with the power out and shops just taking down card numbers.

Re:Cash is king

[Mjlner]

No matter what anyone says, when power goes out and communications infrastructure goes to shit or gets attacked, regular hard currency will still work until the human race forgets how to add and subtract.

...or until the human race wakes up to realise that those pieces of paper are just pieces of paper.

Re:Cash is king

[Khyber]

"Without power the cash registry won't open."

Most registers still use a mechanical release for the drawer. Failing that, they have key unlocking mechanisms.

Re:Cash is king

[Anonymous Coward]

We own a small retail store in the US. We actually give customers that use cash or checks a discount because the fees to us for customers using a credit card are outrageous and built into all of our prices now. I also agree that all the autopay things available have problems - what happens when our internet connection goes down? We have to dig around for the old paper slide processor and use that or write down their card information and process it later.

Cash provides for instant trust as well. I don't need to ask for an ID to make sure someone isn't using a stolen card and I don't have to get their life history to process a credit application for a major purchase on credit. In middle America, I have never run into a business that will not take my cash. Next time ask a business if they will give you a discount on a large purchase for using cash. I bet you get one.

Re:Cash is king

[Fetko]

The ones that tell them cashier how much to charge for the goods and tracks what is sold?

Re:Cash is king

[Anonymous Coward]

I do that just to screw with the kids at the mcdonalds counter.

Your total is $6.18

Here is $11.43 ;-)

Re:Cash is king

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

Same experience here. Give a cashier $21 for a $15.30 charge and it's amazing how many want to hand that dollar back before making change.

Re:Cash is king

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US maybe. Cash registers in Sweden aren't mechanical things. They are for the most part just a computer.

Warning

[Anonymous Coward]

For the Swedes (and opponents of a cashless society in any countriy): If you don't immediately stop using cashless transactions where there's (still) a cash alternative, you will have a cashless society in no time.

Re:Warning

[dromgodis]

Many of us are aware and anxious about that. However, like with Facebook, Google etc, the convenience is just too compelling.

We use a credit/debit card in shops, and phone (via a system called "Swish") for transactions between people (and, increasingly, to shops). Even street beggars and children selling stuff for charity or their class trip accept Swish.

Some store chains have tried their own phone payment solutions, but they are - just as Apple pay and the likes - completely ignored.

There is also the possibility of electronic 'cash'

[master_p]

Cash doesn't have to be paper. An electronic unit with a battery that can hold an electronic counter can function perfectly as an electronic version of cash, without involving banks and going through bank transactions each time.

It seems this option is totally ignored by everyone though.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Archfeld]

So who is going to buy me a smart phone, and pay for a data plan ? I don't have one and I don't want one. My simple dumb Trac phone with just text and phone service is cheap easy and my choice. I have a visa/debit card that I keep for emergency use only, and I have to remind myself to use it for an inquiry once every 90 days or the damn credit union suspends it. As a contractor I am paid by certified check thru my contracting office rather than by the current employer. I use and cash for almost everything except monthly bills which are paid out of my checking account via automatic withdrawal. Does my dope dealer have to pay square or some vendor to stay in business ? How do I give the 'vet' hanging out on the corner a couple of bucks for hamburger evey now and then. Uncle Sam is up in my grill enough with having every dollar I choose to spend analyzed by them.

Re:There is also the possibility of electronic 'ca

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not a target for hacking at all.

cashless not the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sweden could soon face a situation where all payments were controlled by private sector banks".

That is the issue.

Transitioning to cashless is not the issue, it is transitioning to privately controlled currency.

The government could transition to cashless, without outsourcing the e-currency to private companies.

It just means the government would need to own and control the e-currency. It's a blockchain currency or government issued currency cards. Does not matter.

How can businesses refuse cash?

[93 Escort Wagon]

That part of the submission confused me - if payment is offered and If it’s the coin of the realm, how can they legally decline it? It’s not like “cashless” transactions aren’t using the same currency.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash handling by securitas etc. has become prohibitively expensive and very few bank locations actually handle cash anymore so taking it to the bank yourself isn't really viable either.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[DrTJ]

There are plenty of shops and restaurants in Swden that have signs with "we are cash free".

They have the right to accept or decline anyone as a customer, so they just think they can live without the customers who insist on using cash.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[dwywit]

It says on many currencies "good for debts public and private", but if there's a decently-readable "No Cash" sign on the front door (before your transaction begins, i.e. before you incur the debt), then the business is within its rights to specify how they will accept payment.

If that information isn't made available before the debt is incurred, e.g. no sign, and they've already made your coffee, then you can offer cash, and no reasonable magistrate is going to convict you (even if the police could be bothered to arrest you) because you offered a legal means to settle the debt.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

How does a tourist pay for anything?

But wait....my phone was stolen, lost, or broken...now what? Go get another phone, but how do I pay for THAT?

Or I'm only there for 2 days and a night, I don't need a phone to do what I need. Is there something else that can do the electronic transfer that isn't a phone (and should be super cheap)?

I forget my wallet with cash and stuff all the time...or leave it behind for safety)...no problem, stop by a bank branch and get some cash for a day or two (or at least dinner).

Having only 1 way to do anything is a recipe for disaster.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[AHuxley]

Currency is changed to a cashless card. Only money is slowly and then fully removed after education and a change over.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

VISA or Mastercard.

Paying by an app is uncommon in Sweden, we have companies that developed solutions for it early, but uptake in shops have been slow.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

they invented this thing while you were in hibernating in your cave for the last 100 years called travel cards, debit cards and credit cards.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

But wait....my phone was stolen, lost, or broken...now what? Go get another phone, but how do I pay for THAT?

A less common scenario than having your wallet stolen. Also gives you less problems.

Keep your passport in a separate place so that you have some means of identification. That way you can sort it out with your bank.
Notice how paying with cash doesn't make you independent of the bank, it only obfuscates the specific purchase.
(As long as you pay with coins only. Bills have a serial number so when you get them from the ATM they know who has those bills and when the store puts the money back into the bank they know what you bought.)

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

It says on many currencies "good for debts public and private"

The currencies in my walled doesn't say that, but by the time you are reading this I could have scribbled it down on a piece of paper.
The government could also brand pigs with "good for debts public and private", but that doesn't mean that I need to accept them or have the facilities needed to keep them alive and safe until I can trade them for something more convenient.

But yes. If you don't pay in advance and offer cash as a payment the store will probably have to accept the payment.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[hankwang]

And on many currencies it doesn't say "good for debts public and private". I checked the law for the Netherlands (Euro zone, unlike Sweden) some time ago. Here: "legal tender" mostly means means that you're not allowed to copy it. There is no rule that someone has to accept banknotes or coins even for settling a debt. Try paying your phone bill using one-cent coins... many smaller (MVNO) providers don't even have a physical store.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[thegarbz]

if payment is offered and If it’s the coin of the realm, how can they legally decline it?

Just because something exists doesn't make it a legal mandate. You're probably confused because you don't understand the legal mandate, even in the USA.

Just because something is legal tender does not mean it needs to be accepted for services rendered. All it means is that legally the *government* and a registered creditor must accept is as a method of extinguishing debt. i.e. the only people who care about legal tender are the government collecting fees and taxes, and your bank which legally must if requested accept or give out payment via legal tender.

Your government has an FAQ on this: https://www.federalreserve.gov...

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the UK you can decline any transaction you wish that isn't payment of a debt (in the case of a debt E&W say you can't refuse legal tender and Scotland says you cannot refuse any reasonable offer to settle the debt). There are some restrictions i.e. it can't be because of race/gender/sexuality that you decline.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

Typically coins are considered legal tender only below some quantity threshold determined by local law, specifically so that creditors aren't forced to accept a truckload of one-cent coins as payment for debts.

Re: How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

I donâ(TM)t know about Sweden, but in the US âoelegal tenderâ status of US notes and coin only means that they must be accepted for debts already incurred. A good or service at some shop, on the other hand, is only offered with the âoeinvitation to treatâ, and so, they can refuse cash altogether or in particular forms, like say, large notes or buckets of coins.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[turp182]

Solution via annoyance:

Locate any store that doesn't accept physical currency, have cash on hand for full very large transaction.

Select a massive amount of stuff and head to register.

Oh what, you don't take physical currency, restock your shelves.

Make sure to take only one of everything, and from all about the store. Especially frozen stuff, it has be be put back quickly or discarded.

Open a soda to drink while you are shopping. Oh wait, you won't even accept payment for it? Thanks!

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Turmio]

Handling small but valuable physical objects (coins, notes) is expensive (transport, local storage, theft). Proper secure processes related to the said assets is not the core business of any company. That's why you want to get rid of it. It's not the name of the currency that matters, it's the burden of maintaining various channels required to handle the different kinds of transactions using the same currency. While not free, the electronic channels are cheaper business expense than physical. This may not be self-evident from the US point of view considering how different things are over there.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here: "legal tender" mostly means means that you're not allowed to copy it

No, legal tender means what it has always meant:

• IF you incur a debt (e.g. "No cash" sign -> refuse to serve customer wanting to pay cash -> no debt incurred)
• AND the creditor wants their money back (if they release you from the debt without payment... more fool them)
• BUT the creditor refuses any payments you offer (if they accept pogs, and you're willing to pay them pogs... debt settled)
• AND takes you to court and wins the judgement that you have to pay them
• THEN they MUST ACCEPT legal tender

As a business, you can refuse all forms of payment, including legal tender, right up to the point you get a court order forcing the debtor to pay you. The court will not leave the debtor in the trap of "you must pay but the creditor refuses all your payment methods". The court will insist LEGAL TENDER is accepted.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

Generally speaking* the only people who must accept legal tender are the government. If I want payment in apples, but you want to pay in dollars, you are out of luck.

If it was a pay-after-you-eat restaurant, you only had cash and they wouldn't accept it, then you might have a defense* if they sued you for it. But they would be well within their rights not to serve you if it was a pay-in-advance restaurant or shop*.

* Undoubtedly varies wildly by jurisdiction. IANAL in your jurisdiction. This is not legal advice. Don't forget to floss. Talk to your family more often. Everybody should own one well-tailored suit. Vote. Wear sunscreen in the sun, earplugs when it's loud and PPE when in a dangerous work environment. Your mileage may vary. Follow the money. Cults, scams and pyramid schemes always say that they aren't. Know thyself. Ninety percent of people are decent human beings; nine percent of people got decency wrung out of them by the one percent who are sociopaths. The best time to start was years ago; the second best is now. There is no such thing as average, but there is such a thing as median. Everyone has biases; learn yours and watch out for them. Don't worry about the future; do something about it instead. Be kind. Don't ignore weird car noises, warning lights, strange lumps or persistent coughs. Leave a plan for when you are gone; those who are closest to you will be in the worst place to make a bunch of decisions. Live for today, learn from yesterday, plan for tomorrow. Do ignore anyone who says that economic problems are caused by people with no money. Everyone is unique, but only those who use their uniqueness to effect the world are special. If you are an ass when you drink/smoke/etc and you keep doing it, you're just an ass. The scientific consensus is sometimes wrong, but not for long. Forgiveness of others is a gift you give yourself. Know where your towel is.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to ship a package via UPS and my cash payment was refused. I was told that UPS no long accepts cash, but my credit card would be accepted. However, this transaction took place in Massachusetts, and UPS' behavior appears to be illegal. Refer to Massachusetts General Law Part III, Title IV, Chapter 255D, Section 10A, at this website: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIII/TitleIV/Chapter255D/Section10A. The law reads as follows.

Section 10A. No retail establishment offering goods and services for sale shall discriminate against a cash buyer by requiring the use of credit by a buyer in order to purchase such goods and services. All such retail establishments must accept legal tender when offered as payment by the buyer.

I'm sure somebody will quibble over the term "retail establishment" and whether or not UPS meets that definition. I reported UPS to the Massachusetts Attorney General, via their website, but I doubt that anything will be done.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

Official Euro zone rule is that you have to accept 50 coins and an unlimited number of paper bills to settle any debt. Why else would a state go to the trouble of making money if anybody could just refuse it?

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Hey, that was quite interesting - thanks for the link!

It’s also interesting to discover that states *can* pass laws requiring the acceptance of cash, if they choose to do so.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[BadDreamer]

Nobody is obliged to sell you anything, unless a contract has been entered into. If you provide payment in a form I do not approve of, you can not force me to sell to you anyway.

I doubt that is different anywhere else.

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't assume that legal tender in the US means exactly the same thing in the Euro-zone.
https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/euro/use-euro/euro-legal-tender_en

Re: How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/euro/use-euro/euro-legal-tender_en

"This means that in the absence of an agreement of the means of payment, the creditor is obliged to accept a payment made in euro which subsequently discharges the debtor from his payment obligation."

Re:How can businesses refuse cash?

[Anonymous Coward]

Open a soda to drink while you are shopping. Oh wait, you won't even accept payment for it? Thanks!

That is called shoplifting.

Tracking of Taxable Income

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the prime motivator, while tax authority has an ever increasing difficulty to go after big corporations due to the cost involved. It is ever more appealing for them to look for many small sources. The Swedish tax authority for example made a new law in regards to the cash registry where it for intent and purpose is "linked" to the tax authority. See https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassaapparat and https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassaregisterlagen (use google for translation). If they now could also link all transactions even the smallest little sale you do as a private entity has be declared if it's profitable. While it's not nice with tax evasion, this zeal to collect is starting to look like in the Diseny Robin Hood movie where honest working Swedes are robbed blind of every little penny they have extra. I'm Swedish and I really distrust this move, it's bad as it is with every single thing tracked and in public view. E.g. you spot a nice car, call transportstyrelsen (VOSA/DMV) and you will get the address, phone number and all of the ower, call the tax authority and you will get said persons declared income so you know if its a good idea to bring a big truck when you want to rob the place, while you at the same time steal the car. Sweden has become a stalkers paradise and the main stalker is the Tax Authority.

Re:Tracking of Taxable Income

[Anonymous Coward]

Plenty of high profile robberies of cash transportation in sweden the last few years (perhaps not so much last year, but the removal of cash payment has been going on for a while) have sent the cost of cash transport service skyrocketing.

The Securitas and G4Ss simply dont want to handle cash anymore and makes it prohibitively expensive for small businesses to use cash.

Re:Bring in more Diversity

[Anonymous Coward]

Normal swedes with the means are already emigrating.

Sweden has gone off the deep end of late.

[AbRASiON]

A country once to envy, now, I'd be inclined to avoid most things they say and do. Total head in the sand people over there.

Re:Sweden has gone off the deep end of late.

[Darkling-MHCN]

I don't see how desiring anonymous payment processes is backward. At present cash is the only anonymous scalable transaction system. You might suggest crypto currencies but at present they're not practical as a mass consumer market payment system. There are exchanges offering Visa cards, but this isn't any better than a normal Visa card, all your transactions go through the Visa card system and are tracked!

Do you really want everything you buy, the quantity you purchase it in, the time you purchase it and the location you purchase these items from to be recorded and used by a 3rd party? Sweden says no

You may see no value in privacy, but I'm sure one day you will.

Re:Sweden has gone off the deep end of late.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweden gets dragged through the mud as part of the US (and as an extension, the anglosphere) culture wars. I think it's more likely that your perception of them has changed rather than them actually changing that much.

Re:Sweden has gone off the deep end of late.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Swede living in Sweden.
His perception hasn't even scratched the surface of the real change.
The coming 10-30 years in Sweden will be a cautionary tale for everyone.

Re:Sweden has gone off the deep end of late.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Norwegian I propose a Wall, and get the Swedes to pay for it.

Hey, it worked "over there"!

Seriously, if you start questioning authority at every turn, you can take back your freedom again. You failed horribly when the Nazi's came, but it's still not too late.
Authority being anyone claiming ownership over definitions and "truth", two powerful narratives that have fooled people for millenia already (this nothing new).

Re:Sweden has gone off the deep end of late.

[Anonymous Coward]

He's referring to far-right propaganda about immigration.

Re:Sweden has gone off the deep end of late.

[AbRASiON]

I've read a bit of what's going on over there, it's horrific. Or rather, it's going to slowly, consistently get worse, until it's utterly horrific. The place sounds like terrifying to live in, knowing your future safety is in likely jeopardy.

I expect to see Swedes to start leaving more and more in the coming decades.

Re:Sweden has gone off the deep end of late.

[Anonymous Coward]

This shows how little you know about Sweden (my country), its history and its people. Worry about your own problems.

Banks are pushing. Swedes are feeble creatures.

[xpiotr]

Normally a superior solution (like a bank card) would out phase another, but what is happening here is that the banks are working hard to to make cashless "fashionable modern".
Swedish people hate to not be "modern" and embrace it without any second thought.
There are shops not accepting cash and this is considered a "Good Thing".
Most bank offices are "cashless"
I have heard swedes argue that we must remove the cash, because it costs to much.
Banks have done a good PR job.
There needs to be better regulation for protecting against this.

Re:Banks are pushing. Swedes are feeble creatures.

[Anonymous Coward]

Cost of cash handling by security companies have gone up a lot, combined with as you say fewer and fewer bank offices actually handling cash. For a small business it is neither affordable or practical to accept cash anymore.

Re:Banks are pushing. Swedes are feeble creatures.

[Anonymous Coward]

Introduction of electronic payment systems allows central control of charges to be increased without you seeing it and for introducing other nasty accounting tricks.

For example, all our public transport and tolls have gone electronic. Guess what ... you now pay in advance for everything by 'topping up your card' and deduct from that. So, on average, they have half your top-up amount as a free loan.
If you do not automatically 'top up', then you are hit with a fee or higher prices per trip.

On top of that, the costs can change in a much more quiet way.

Re:Banks are pushing. Swedes are feeble creatures.

[ElitistWhiner]

Swede's are right to protect monetary convenience if not their privacy to maintain some semblance of choice in their world.

Payments platforms process "cashless" transactions. A platform receives a % of each cashless transaction to complete an exchange. This contributes bottom-line profit directly to the platform. As opposed to cash for which banks are either ' not a party' to a cash transaction or are a ' non-vested' witness in cash transactions that a bank may facilitate by cash withdrawal of money. SO banks are incentivized toward cashless payments processing. Banking transactions where the two parties to an exchange are known is what banks do.

Banking 1st Principle "Know you customer" intrinsically makes every bank hostile to cash that facilitates privacy and secret transactions. Cashless Society is being stood-up as a technological advance on its record of safety, efficiency, secure and friction-less record without implicating that its your right to privacy that is lost in this exchange.

Once fiat cash is no longer a viable medium of exchange or store of value, your ONLY choice is digital cash. Swede's woke-up...

Tourists...

[Bert64]

The problem with the various cashless options is that a lot of them are country or region specific, so when you have tourists visiting it's often difficult for them to make use of the local payment systems,especially since many such systems disallow registration from users outside of the country.

Re:Tourists...

[Anonymous Coward]

Only American tourists have trouble because of their fixation with cash.

Tourists from other parts of the world have wonderful things called credit cards, debit cards, and understand how to use them.

Re:Tourists...

[will_die]

You have obviously have not traveled much.
The issue with cash mainly hits Europeans and Asians. In lots of those countries credit card acceptance is very low because people are still in the habit of using cash for everything because most place don't accept any credit/debit cards.
If you ever travel around Germany, France, most of the middle east, and most of Asia and are outside of the major cities you better carry cash or you will be not be purchasing everything you want.

Re:Tourists...

[Anonymous Coward]

You have obviously have not traveled much.

The issue with cash mainly hits Europeans and Asians. In lots of those countries credit card acceptance is very low because people are still in the habit of using cash for everything because most place don't accept any credit/debit cards.

If you ever travel around Germany, France, most of the middle east, and most of Asia and are outside of the major cities you better carry cash or you will be not be purchasing everything you want.

"most of the middle east" If you willingly go there, you deserve the headache... There's nothing of value on the surface of those places.

Re:Tourists...

[Anonymous Coward]

ALWAYS go with cash. Only SOMETIMES with cards. A couple of personal examples:

In mainland China, none of my credit cards were accepted in a large luxury department store, in a mid level city...had to use cash.

A few years ago, suddenly, without warning, the tax department decided to freeze my bank accounts. We were having a dispute over a past assessment. Cheques started bouncing, bills unpaid, etc. They destroyed my life for a couple of months. They didn't care. Couldn't even get cash out of ATM machines. I was travelling at the time...GO WITH CASH, don't let the government have the ultimate say over your assets, accounts, etc. The power tripping unaccountable bureaucrats will mess up your life severely if you don't have some cash. I am not the only one, incidently, of this kind of government abuse.

Even small vendors, small shops, street markets, etc., only use cash, cards not accepted. Etc., etc., etc.

ALWAYS have and GO with CASH!

Re:Tourists...

[Anonymous Coward]

Try paying for a meal with a credit card in Nepal. Unless it is a high-end place, forgetaboutit. There are places that do take credit cards in Nepal, BTW.

Just try to use a credit card in Patagonia outside a hotel. Cash is king there, especially outside the major cities.

I've had my credit cards refused in Spain, Turkey, and at Shipol Airport. The issue was EMV + pin. I haven't been to Europe in a few years.

BTW, I do travel a bunch, but still use cash for trivial expenses. Why should I risk the hassles of stolen cards/numbers over a beer or small plate of tapas?

Also, a travel buddy had his wallet and 2 smartphones stolen when in Europe. He couldn't get them replaced while we were there because the CC replacement services were usually only available in capitol cities and on weekdays. Our plans had us in capitols only on weekends. Don't get me started about how stupid he was to have ALL his payment methods in a single place. I split them up into multiple places and don't leave any electronics out while doing the "tourist" things.

I do not pay for anything using a smartphone. I know too much about computer security to do that. If you load **any** 3rd party apps, you've just broken security.

Re:Tourists...

[Bert64]

Credit cards aren't so widely accepted in many countries...
While mastercard and visa are the two most widely accepted and issued types of cards there are various others... Some places won't issue visa/mc, and some places won't take them.

Several times i've travelled to countries only to find that they have a type of payment that's popular locally but simply doesn't exist in other countries, and there will usually be some places which only accept these local payment methods and don't take visa or mastercard.

You end up having to take cash when you travel because it's easier acquiring country-specific cash than it is gaining access to a country-specific payment system, but for most things cash is horribly inconvenient.

Re:Is the Swedish Government really nice?

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason for the no go zones is that the government were too nice to the criminals in the area for about 30 years.

There is also the idiotic tolerance that foreigners aren't expected to live up to the standards ethnic swedes are held by and thus they get away with rape and other things because "they didn't understand that what they did was wrong".

center bank

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha... when the CENTRAL BANK, tells you to not trust PRIVATE BANKS.... Well we live in an age, where you can't trust anyone anymore. Your government lets in criminals, lets criminal go free. Punishes the innocents, CENTRAL BANK is the source of lots of conspiracy theories.... You can't trust anyone anymore, but unfortunately you don't have much of a choice anymore...

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Viol8]

" I got a check once. NEVER again. The amount of effort it took to actually convert that into money was incredible."

Go to bank, hand over check and card, wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account? Thats incredible effort is it? Jeez, another bone idle millenial no doubt.

"Yay tax avoidance. That's what you meant right?"

Obviously privacy issues are a bit beyond your comprehension. Here's an analogy your lonely braincell might understand - why do you have blinds or curtains on your windows, are you doing anything illegal inside? No. But you want them anyway right because privacy has a value? Perhaps now you get it.

Re:There is also the possibility of electronic 'ca

[dromgodis]

We tried that in Sweden. It was even called "Cash", and was an added function on your credit/debit card. The banks forced all shops etc to replace their card terminals at great expense. Nobody understood what the point was, so it was completely ignored. Now it is gone and the embarrassment forgotten.

As a Swede

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me try to shine a light on the situation.

Most Swedes do not want to use cash as it requires you to carry around something of value to a mugger. Sure, you can steal a debit or credit card, but those are always "protected" by both PIN and the bank itself (if you report the theft).

For a couple of years now we have been using a money transmission solution called Swish. It allows individuals to transmit money from a bank account to another bank account without delay, as the Swish solution is owned and maintained by a collaboration between the major banks. You can't usually use it in a grocery store, but you can often use it to pay your hairdresser, the local food truck, etc.

You can pay by debit or credit card pretty much anywhere in Sweden. Buses or trains usually requires you to have a specific payment card (RFID) for the region and interoperability is indeed a problem. But then again, the whole "trains" and "busses" thing in Sweden, is just what it is...

"Cash in hand" is not often a thing in Sweden, unless you are getting paid under the table.

The only time cash shines in Sweden today, is when the technology fails. A couple of weeks back I walked into a local bookstore, found something of interest and when I tried to pay for it using my debit card. But the second before I inserted my card into the terminal, the display informed me that it was performing a software upgrade. An upgrade which caused all of the terminals to stop working. I ended up having to leave the store and find a cash machine to withdraw some money. The store did not accept Swish payment, by the way.

Swedes want the payment solution that requires the least effort. Could we go full "sci-fi" and pay using our palm print, then we would do that. It has nothing to do with trusting the government or technology, just plain old laziness. With a fair bit of; "I don't want to carry around something valuable".

Re:As a Swede

[OrangeTide]

Most Swedes do not want to use cash as it requires you to carry around something of value to a mugger.

Why are Swedes getting mugged? It is not San Francisco.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[ShanghaiBill]

How do I give the 'vet' hanging out on the corner a couple of bucks for hamburger evey now and then.

You use your phone to scan the QR-code on his phone, or if he doesn't have a phone, you scan the QR-code sticker on the corner of his "Please Help" sign.

You really have no idea. Most bums in China accept both WeChat and AliPay. Likewise, most Swedish bums likely take Swish (never been to Sweden (not into blondes)). Peer-to-peer payments are trivial.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[jafffacake]

Go to bank? That's a 40 mile round trip right there for me. Not a good start! I can post a cheque to my bank, but i must use special envelopes, and a special credit slip which must be correctly filled out. Then i have to pay for a stamp, and find a postbox (only a mile, yay). Finally, delay while the cheque gets to the bank, and more delay while it clears. No, thanks!

US Governemt does not control USD

[hlavac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:US Governemt does not control USD

[mysidia]

The Constitution provides the US government the right to Coin the money, so through legislative action, they could in fact print more money.

Re:US Governemt does not control USD

[WorBlux]

Coin =/= print. Reading between the lines there is room for the federal government is issue securities and pass legal tender laws. But when the fundamental currency is not defined by a weight of metal, legal tender laws have little to no weight (pun intended) behind them. Yes you can be force me accept a dollar for any debt denominated in dollars, but next time I'll just raise the price in dollars and peg to contract to inflation. They can't force the security to be accepted at the same rate as the metal if the metal isn't the officially pegged to the note.

And note that this right to coin money is not an exclusive right, and securities and bills of credit are only prohibited to the states (individuals can and have issues such written instruments)

Re:US Governemt does not control USD

[dcw3]

Actually, it's the Fed that decides. No legislative action needed.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[JaredOfEuropa]

Go to bank, hand over check and card, wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account?

You lost me at "go to bank". In the past 10 years I've set foot in a bank perhaps 3 times or so, to open a business account, to get a mortgage, and to discuss a business loan. I wouldn't want to have to go there every time I receive money from someone.

In the past I went more often: to cash checks, withdraw and deposit money, etc... Can't say I miss it.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[GuB-42]

Go to bank, hand over check and card, wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account? Thats incredible effort is it? Jeez, another bone idle millenial no doubt.

I don't know which country you are in but did you ever went to a bank?
Banks are typically open only during business hours, which seriously reduce your options if you have a regular job. The rare time where you can find a slot where the bank is opened and you are available, chances are that it is the same for everyone else and the lines are huge. Furthermore, low level bank employees (i.e. the ones you hand the check to) seem to be there only to tell you how to do things by yourself and getting yelled at for things that are beyond their control. There isn't much they can do that you can't do by yourself.
I consider "going to the bank" incredible effort (and banks make sure it is). I won't do it unless I'm negotiating a mortgage or something like that. Thankfully, banks usually accept checks by mail, but that's still much more effort than most other transactions.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[houghi]

The problem on the technical side seems to be solved in Europe. (Not talking about the social side of using cashless)
I have both credit and debit cards. I use the credit card as a debit card as I pay full at the end of the month, so no interests.Both work identical with payments and I mix them up as I feel like it.
I also have a backup card that I must use once every 2 years or so, before it expires. I have another debit card that will never expire and I never use.
For small amounts I just swipe my card. For larger payments, I just put my card in the slot and type in my pin. Takes a few seconds. About the same time as waiting for change.

Next there is the part of security. The store will not keep the credit card number, so unless I have a store card, they will not be able to link sales to me (Yes, theoretically they could break the law and do it) The credit card company will see the store and know the store type, but will have no idea if you bought diapers or milk or whiskey in a supermarket. They will see you spend X amount at an airline, but will not know where you went to. On top of that, in Belgium it is not even allowed to analyze that data (yes, they could break the law. They don't. Not worth the risk)

Next there is money transfers. When I need to give money to a friend, I will transfer it to them via an app, a website or any other means. As soon as the amount is above 10.000EUR, the bank has to ask where the money came from. If they think it is fraudulent, they will inform the authorities. If not (e.g. just from one account to another) nobody cares.

As I have not bought drugs in a long time, I have no idea what the situation will be there. If I where to pay him cashless, I will not be in trouble as they do not really care about me smoking some joints.

As giving the vet some extra cash? I do not. There are plenty of places these people can go to in Belgium. Social security and all such things. I already pay them by paying taxes.

Re:There is also the possibility of electronic 'ca

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem was that it was too "secure". It didn't add any convenience over regular cards.

Since you could control how much money was available on the card there was no real need for a pin code.
Just don't put more money on it than you can afford to have stolen and there is no need for extra security.

Why would you let your country/culture die?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Swede living in Sweden.
His perception hasn't even scratched the surface of the real change

The coming 10-30 years in Sweden will be a cautionary tale for everyone.

I always want to ask the Swedes this one question:

Why are you letting your country / culture die?

Sweden, the country, and Swede, the culture, are marching towards a certain country/culturalcide

Why are Swedes so willingly let their culture / country commit suicide?

Re: Why would you let your country/culture die?

[Anonymous Coward]

A conclusion by the far left that whites are utterly evil and need to pass from the earth, in order to have true social justice. They built the wonderful world we have today but are not allowed to live in it. Fortunately whites are recessive genes and any mixing with darker people eliminates them.

Wait, what?

[SCVonSteroids]

while shops and cafes increasingly refuse to accept notes and coins because of the costs and risk involved.

Isn't notes and coins the LEAST costly, and by some extension, less risk involved than most other payments?
Aren't there transaction fees to most payment methods to begin with? What am I missing here?

Re:Wait, what?

[Anonymous Coward]

It costs something to handle cash. You have to have secure-ish cash registers, maintain a float to start the day, balance the till at the end of each day or each check handover, count/bag and bank proceeds daily (many banks charge businesses to deposit cash), handle situations of running out of cash to make change... You risk theft by staff, loss through counterfeit notes, hold-ups.

The cost to handle cash, particularly in large quantity, is precisely how banks/CC companies justify fees and commissions on card transactions.

Re:Wait, what?

[SCVonSteroids]

That makes sense. I posted before reading through the comment section and a bunch of valid points were brought up.
Regardless, getting RID of cash completely seems like a sketchy prospect.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Viol8]

"I don't know which country you are in but did you ever went to a bank?"

I work about 300m from a branch of my bank so I'm there pretty often yes.

"Banks are typically open only during business hours, which seriously reduce your options if you have a regular job"

Depends on the bank. Mine is open saturdays along with most others in the UK.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[TheRaven64]

I'm not sure where either you or the grandparent live, but in the UK you can at least avoid the interacting with a human step in most banks. You grab an envelope from a stand, fill in your account details on the back, put the cheques inside, and then drop it in a post box in the bank and they'll process it that day.

Apparently a bunch of US banks now provide a phone app that lets you take a photograph of a cheque to process it. This leads to some slightly surreal experiences where the fastest way for one person to hand money to another is to write a cheque, have the other photograph it, and then rip it up.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Viol8]

"That's a 40 mile round trip right there for me"

Its your choice to live in the middle of nowhere. I imagine other services are equally inconvenient for you.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[TheRaven64]

The store will not keep the credit card number, so unless I have a store card, they will not be able to link sales to me

Note that they are not allowed to store the card number, but they are allowed to store a cryptographic hash of the card number and they are allowed to store the last few digits. A typical card number is about 53 bits, so storing a 256-bit hash means that the probability of a collision is so close to zero that they have an effectively unique identifier. Oh, and I think that they're also allowed to store the name on the card.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[thegarbz]

Go to bank, hand over check and card, wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account?

Let's go through this shall we:

Go to the bank:
- 15min walk to the branch, get a ticket, stand in line for 15minutes.
Hand over check and card:
- Aside from the very confused looks I got last time I did this it then resulted in the teller getting paperwork out, opening the account, trying to upsell me on shit like a savings account, fill out the paperwork, check it, sign it.
Wait for cashier to pay cheque into your account.
- And wait I did. Some furious typing and several minutes later I was finally free of this drain on my existence along with a useless receipt. 40minutes of my time wasted.

Now let's look at the alternative shall we:
.
Done. I got a text message telling me I received income.

Obviously privacy issues are a bit beyond your comprehension.

No obviously privacy issues didn't make it through all that tin foil on your hat.

why do you have blinds or curtains on your windows

I don't to keep the light out when watching TV. I leave my curtains open at all other times including at night. So no, I don't get it. And neither does anyone else, because guess what: you're not as interesting as you think you are, and people aren't standing outside your window just dying to get a peak at your junk.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[SCVonSteroids]

Most banks accomodate at least one day a week (and sometimes Saturdays, oh my gosh!) where they are open during extended hours so their customers with regular jobs don't need to worry.

I can't speak for your country's situation, but in Canada, if your bank doesn't have a similar setup, you're with the wrong institution and should consider switching if this actually poses a problem for you.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a young manager i go quite often. 20mins by car, withdrew some 20k cash to bring over to the money changer to bring back to my country. Why? The forex rate via bank transfer is 4 to 5%. This way its about 1.5%

I also need to do this twice (buying a car at the end of the year. Cash. Avoids the 4-5% p.a. Interest for loans)

This saves me some 1500 up front for forex, and some 5000 in interest fees for 3 years.

While its not USD40,000 the amount of time to get that amount would have been same were I a usa citizen. Imagine that kind of savings by going to the bank. Would you not also do it?

Too late

[Anonymous Coward]

Cashless was always about introducing an extra tax by negative interest rates. When cash was available, people could always keep their notes. Now, deposits can be taxed and there is nothing Swedes can do about it. You will get your negative rates and will like it.

Re:There is also the possibility of electronic 'ca

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember it.

At that time there was still interest rates on your normal bank account, but if you put money in the "cash" account there was no interest rate so people didn't use it.

These days the interest rate in your normal bank account is close to 0, so it would probably have been more successful.

Apathetic, not Clueless.

[Anonymous Coward]

And I've run into lots of Gen Xers who were the same way. I mean fuck, wasn't Clerks about exactly that?

The biggest problem is the lack of employee retention and proof of goodwill between employer and employee. When you stop treating employees like chattel they will be more likely to invest themselves in their jobs, especially if they know there is advancement they can strive towards. Today, and for the past decade or longer, neither of those things are true.

What the hell?

[Anonymous Coward]

"It is hard to argue that you cannot trust the government when the government isn't really all that bad."

Genociding your own people isn't "all that bad"? You are mentally ill.

Re:What the hell?

[Anonymous Coward]

What genocide?

Re:What the hell?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you really have to ask, you are lost beyond help...

Cash fails safe, electronic payments don't.

[sabbede]

That's a major advantage. The only way cash can break is for the government backing it to fail completely. Electronic funds have many more points of failure, plus somebody is quietly taking a cut of every transaction.

Re:Cash fails safe, electronic payments don't.

[PPH]

Cash has it's drawbacks. Get held up in front of an ATM and see how safe it is. Sweden needs a concealed carry right.

Re:Cash fails safe, electronic payments don't.

[sabbede]

Stealing cash is generally less complex than stealing electronic funds, yes, but only to a point. From a purely financial perspective, I'd rather be physically robbed than electronically. A mugger can only get what cash you have on your person. A hacker or identity thief can get everything you have and more.

Re:Cash fails safe, electronic payments don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Whereas someone can hold you up and take your wallet with your cashless payment and steal ALL your money, since you have all your cash there, whereas if you're held up at an ATM, you're limited to what you got out or how much your withdrawal limit is. And if it's not at gunpoint, you can rob a million people just as easily as one.

Stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard of

[Anonymous Coward]

So Visa, Mastercard makes a ton of money off your back. Oh, and as a citizen, you are forcibly restricted. Can't buy food if your poor and can't afford a tracking system of payments? Well if we can't track what you buy, you can't buy anything?

Not only Orwellian, creepy and messed up. Nothing like screwing your citizens. Papers please!

Re:Stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard of

[OrangeTide]

Every nation in the world will eventually require citizens to provide identification on demand in order to travel or purchase anything. I don't think there is any way to but the brakes on that.

Regional Currency?

[coofercat]

I wonder if Sweden has any regional currencies?

When I lived in Brixton (an area of South London) they started the Brixton Pound: http://brixtonpound.org/ (which has paper notes, no coins and an SMS based mobile payment solution). The Americans I worked with at the time really couldn't understand how such a thing was possible, but the UK has a couple of them. I'm told there are are a couple of unofficial ones across Europe as a way to 'beat the Euro', but that's a slightly different proposition.

Re:Regional Currency?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

The Americans I worked with at the time really couldn't understand how such a thing was possible, but the UK has a couple of them.

The US has quite a few of them. The federal government has a few rules regarding naming (mostly to avoid naming confusion with actual USD).

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of good points. (I also use a TracPhone and even the minimum 60 minutes every 3 months is far more than I need.)

But there's also one more, glaring aspect to this that many people just don't seem to get: Credit/debit payments involve an unnecessary fee to an unnecessary middleman. A debit card merely does cash transfer. The middleman bank, with it's fee to the vendor, is a completely unnecessary step. Square also charges fees. Millennial utopians don't seem to realize that, preferring to view cashless as "futuristic" when it's really just a parasitic banking trend.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to bank? That's a 40 mile round trip right there for me. Not a good start!

I can post a cheque to my bank, but i must use special envelopes, and a special credit slip which must be correctly filled out. Then i have to pay for a stamp, and find a postbox (only a mile, yay).

Finally, delay while the cheque gets to the bank, and more delay while it clears.

No, thanks!

Do you live in the backwoods of Montana or something? Even rural towns usually have at least one bank and many banks have allowed you to electronically deposit the check with them by simply taking a damn photo of it with your phone for many years now.

Fake news

[Anonymous Coward]

I am Swedish and bitcoin is all I use now and all my friends are too. Everything we buy here in Sweden is avalable with bitcoin and bitcoin is the future of money. Anyone even considering not using bitcoin is a idiot.

Re:Fake news

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right! wooosh!

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

hey employee we insist you get paid into the bank each month using this service- this costs us money from now on each employee will pay a 5% surcharge to get paid each month .

Or you ages will be deposited onto this company payment system of course you can withdraw all of it and place it in a bank , however its not our fault their is a 30% surcharge for that.

Don't like it - well it's employment at will - find another job.

Pirate Party? LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Sweden bow to US orders and changed its liberal copyright laws as dictated by World Emperor and Most Beloved Leader, Barack Hussein Obama (hail!)? Didn't the Pirate Party lose any meaning to its existence in a moment without even being able to oppose the deal most wanted and enforced by World Emperor and Most Beloved Leader, Barack Hussein Obama (hail!)? Doesn't the government of Sweden have to obey the EU (hail! hail! hail!)? Why are they still around? LOL

Internal exile

[jbmartin6]

My concern with cashless is that it enables a lot of totalitarian control without all the cost and bother of prisons and arrests. Just look at where China is going with their 'social credit' system. I read an SF novel once where a convicted criminal wasn't jailed or even arrested, but a consortium of big businesses just refused to do business with him. So he couldn't pay to use any services like taxis, even elevators. Had to walk down a thousand flights of stairs or something. Just look at China, only two payment systems, WeChat and Alipay, are around. And more and more places only accept these and will not take cash. Now what if you made some online post criticizing the government (or in the US, any statement disliked by the Internet lynch mob du jour). Bang, you are banned from these services and now can't even buy a cup of coffee anywhere. But there are no human rights abuses right? You are still free to move about and such. But you are effectively in exile.

7/10 Swedes want to keep cash; 25% want cashless

[AdamStarks]

The remaining half a Swede could not be reached for comment.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[geoscodin]

I was paid by check one time and stopped next door at the bank from which the check was written. They wanted to charge me a $7 fee because I did not have an account at that bank. Insanity! Instead I took a photo and deposited it into my own back via the app. I had to wait a day for it clear, but there was no way I was paying a fee for a bank to cash their own check.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[houghi]

In Belgium that is a no-no. The information they have is the transaction information. That they will give to the company that handles their tranasctions (mostl likely World Online) and those will then see who is the company behind the card (most likely some bank)

Yes, I am very well aware thatit is technically possible to do a lot of things. That does not make it legal and the fines will be pretty high and could cost the company their license to do business. Much cheaper to lure the cutomers with loyalty cards. That will not only give them a legal ability to analyze the data. It gives them the ability to send marketing stuff as well as do customer binding. People with a loyalty card are much more brand loyal than those without one.

People will gladly pay 10EUR more, just so they can get 0.10EUR in bonus points. Yes, I do have experience in the field on a professional level.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[MrTester]

Note to self: Ignore people who are incapable of responding without an insult.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sure he's the one screaming for city mandated internet access, paid for by anyone but him.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[thegarbz]

and should consider switching if this actually poses a problem for you.

I think the GP's point was that it doesn't pose a problem to him because in modern countries you don't go to the bank, ever. It's where grandma's hang out with their account books because they don't have internet.

Me, I last went to the bank 3 years ago and that's only because I needed to show ID when transferring my homeloan to another bank (incidentally I've never been to the new bank, the application of the homeloan was done online). I wouldn't even know where the nearest branch is.

Ask the Cypriots and Greeks what they think

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask their fellow-EU citizens, the Cypriots and the Greeks, what they think about a cashless society, where the government can suddenly restrict all cash withdrawals to 50 CHF. I'm sure that they're not very enthusiastic about it.

Lucky.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Germans were lucky to have good government until the 1900's. The Swedes of the next generation might find that someone uses the freedoms this generation gives up to seize more freedoms and become monsters. An ounce of prevention and all that.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats, you are one of those people everyone hates to deal with

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[SCVonSteroids]

That's a fair point.
Personally I'd rather deal with people face to face when it comes to big loans, like a mortgage for example. There's probably no difference from what you get in the end in both scenarios, but it is simple preference.

I go to my bank once every two weeks to get my cash spending money (cafeteria at work doesn't take anything else and the ATM gouges you), and I've recently got a CC with tap functionality (holy it's convenient...) as it was recommended by the mortgage broker I spoke with so I could build up some credit, as I didn't have much in terms of loans at the time. Plus it gives me a little back, so hey, why not.

Physical branches are dwindling every year though, so surely I'll be forced to adapt sooner than later.

You don't need cash, banks or crypto

[jd]

Cards with electronic cash that need no central bank have existed since the 90s.

Handle it like cash, no central control, so it's equal to cash. It's in a real currency, not a pretend one.

By using strong PKI, provable software and tamper-proof electronics, such systems are more secure than Blockchain and don't have the latency.

They aren't used much because the 90s was a time when crypto was under attack and nobody trusted new gizmos.

However, this approach eliminates the need for credit card companies, central control and physical cash.

What's more, thus style of system is in Neuromancer and we all know the final system is one predicted in a sci-fi novel.

Re:You don't need cash, banks or crypto

[WorBlux]

"Tamper-proof electronics" No such thing, especially when there's million to be had if you can crack it. modern so-called "security processors" are cracked on a regular basis. Tamper-resistant and tamper-evident are hard, but at least possible standards to achieve.

"strong PKI" is only as strong as the central private key, and even then you need some sort of central system to prevent double-spending. and re-issue tokens to the card. This was the big deal about the bitcoin white-paper, a way to prevent double spending without a central trusted party.

If the money is stuck on the card, yes you technically made an electronic cash that can be loaded in any denomination, but there's no real advantage over cash, you've just exchanged on big complicated, secretive, and very, very expensive printing press for an even more complicated, just as reliant in a few secrets, and even more expensive because you've made every payee need complex proprietary electronic to accept such e-cash.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Whorhay]

There is definitely a cost burden to using electronic forms of payment. However there is also costs associated with accepting cash. We are usually oblivious to that cost simply because it has traditionally always been the baseline. Checks, Credit, and Debit have been viewed as add-ons. Now however they can be used as a baseline alternative. So which form of payments a vendor supports comes down purely to what their customers are willing to use and which is affordable for the vendor.

The costs of using cash that I can think of are:
Time, making deposits.
Time, withdraws for change.
Time, to process transaction (this can vary depending on technology).
Time, to process end of day activities like counting out tills.
Money, employee theft.
Exposure to robberies, and associated risk of violence.

Now I'm not saying that the real costs of accepting cash out weighs that of other forms of payment in all situations. I would wager though that depending on circumstances taking only electronic payments could work out to be cheaper, and quite likely safer. The fees associated with electronic payments are not pure profit for a middleman as they pay for fraud protection and such.

many reason

[aepervius]

Because cash is a pita for both client and shop. You need change, you need to secure it (you can be robbed either as shop or client), if stolen you cant secure it : it is gone, you need to withdraw cash so you lose time going to an atm and during long week end money can be absent etc... i was a cash believer but as i got older i found cash to become a nuisance.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[CrimsonAvenger]

I don't know which country you are in but did you ever went to a bank?

USA.

My bank is open Saturdays. I have never seen more than three people in line (this ignoring the zero to five people already talking to one of the four to five tellers), and have never had to wait more than five minutes to get to a teller.

That said, I go to a bank fewer than ten times a year. Fewer than six most years....

I consider "going to the bank" incredible effort (and banks make sure it is).

Your bank, as they used to say, doth well and truly sucketh. I'd suggest switching to one that actually wants your business....

forget it

[aepervius]

By the time something so catastrophal happen the chance you find a shop filled with goods are nil. They will be looted ir sold out and not reshelved. If infrastructure is gone then your cash is also worthless.

Re:7/10 Swedes want to keep cash; 25% want cashles

[Anonymous Coward]

Do submarines have cashless payment options?

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Archfeld]

You have a pretty high opinion of yourself. I've never had anyone vendor or otherwise biatch or at least had the nerve to biatch to my face about a transaction. Here in Yuma most of the gas stations still offer two prices, one for credit, and a cheaper more preferred price for cash.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where the fuck do you live? I live in zomburbia in a midwestern urban sprawl and it's no more than 3 miles to a bank.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[thegarbz]

Personally I'd rather deal with people face to face when it comes to big loans, like a mortgage for example. There's probably no difference from what you get in the end in both scenarios, but it is simple preference.

This may be localised but in the country where I got my homeloan you don't go to the bank, ever. Mortgage brokers almost universally get you a far better rate. When I got my first home loan I even went to the bank I was at since I was a child and they still gave me a worse rate than through the mortgage broker, same bank, same situation, but I almost felt like I was being punished for being a long term customer. Anyway another bank came in cheaper yet again and then my original bank was genuinely confused as to why I closed my accounts and moved money elsewhere. The teller had a serious case of foot in mouth when he asked why I was moving after being "loyal" for so long and I told him that I could only take so much punishment. :-)

and the ATM gouges you

Another locality difference. I'm currently in the Netherlands (well technically I spend more time in Germany) but by law they can't charge me at an ATM, and by extension my bank doesn't charge anywhere within the EU. I not so fondly remember doing the dance back in Australia looking for an ATM with my bank logo on it to avoid a $2 fee.

Physical branches are dwindling every year though

Just for shits and giggles I looked up where my nearest branch is. The website I got said that my nearest one was formerly 2km away from home. ... Key word: Formerly. Apparently it closed late last year and now I would need to go downtown for the next one. It was replaced with a pharmacy, far more useful :)

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most bums in China accept both WeChat and AliPay.*

*May incure Social Rating System point reduction. Reduction may deny you access to essential goods and services. Not applicable to members of the Party. Some restrictions apply. See your local Party representative for more details.

Emergencies?

[laie_techie]

I like having a cache of money to use in case of emergencies. What do you do in a power outage and merchants can't take electronic payment? What do you do if your phone's battery dies or if your phone gets stolen? What do you do when you want to make a purchase you don't want tracked?

No

[Anonymous Coward]

I like it without cash... ....this must be a minority report. My friends do too.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

In several European countries, banks have stopped cashing checks in the past few years.

Before that, cashing a check would cost tens to hundreds of dollars and would take weeks, as the bank actually snail-mailed the check to their US partner (because checks always originated in USA). Also, you could not initiate the process in just any branch office, as the tellers would not be trained to deal with such an extraordinary situation. You'd need to go to the main office to cash a check.

But yeah, those days are over. No more cashing checks around here.

Off topic nitpick

[jwhyche]

This is all great... once weÃ(TM)re cashless youÃ(TM)ll love the convenience of negative interest rates or addition transaction taxes or fees.

I respect the fact that some of you like to run your posts through word or librewrite before you post. I do the same thing on some of my longer posts. But when you do post, please make sure you copy and paste as pure ascii text. Slashdot isn't smart enough to figure out smart quotes and other shit word and writer will stick in there.

Thank you, drive through.....

cash works just fine

[mad7777]

I just had this great idea for a fabulous new technology! I'm calling it CASH. Here are some of its features:

• Transactions are unhackable. No need to worry about who stole your credit card info every time a retailer suffers a security breach.
• Transactions not stored in any bank's database forever, to be sold to unknown third parties at any time in the future, for any purpose.
• No middleman taking a percentage of every transaction, cleverly hidden from the consumer, generating a 2% drain on the economy.
• Does not rely on any network or other technology - works even when the internet goes down.
• Always know exactly how much money you have and how much you are spending, and never be in debt.
• Fast as pulling a bill out of your wallet. Never wait for an overloaded network.
• And, obviously, cash is private and anonymous. Your transactions are nobody's business but yours and your counterparty's.

Re:There is also the possibility of electronic 'ca

[BadDreamer]

We had that in Sweden, only without battery. A "cash card" which you charged with cash or from a bank account, and then used for payments. It could be completely anonymous, if you wanted it to be.

It failed completely. Nobody used it, or wanted it.

Solution to the immigrant problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Cashless society is a very good way to get rid of those pesky immigrants. You can keep all the illegals from getting paid cash under the table. A cashless society is a means of complete and total control by the authorities. Welcome the boot smashing your face for the next thousand years.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

So who is going to buy me a smart phone, and pay for a data plan ? I don't have one and I don't want one. My simple dumb Trac phone with just text and phone service is cheap easy and my choice. I have a visa/debit card that I keep for emergency use only, and I have to remind myself to use it for an inquiry once every 90 days or the damn credit union suspends it. As a contractor I am paid by certified check thru my contracting office rather than by the current employer. I use and cash for almost everything except monthly bills which are paid out of my checking account via automatic withdrawal. Does my dope dealer have to pay square or some vendor to stay in business ? How do I give the 'vet' hanging out on the corner a couple of bucks for hamburger evey now and then. Uncle Sam is up in my grill enough with having every dollar I choose to spend analyzed by them.

I know you are either just trolling or are woefully uneducated or incredibly old or something, but does your debit card require a data plan?

No it does not. Shockingly, the NFC chip in your phone does not require a data plan either. You can use Apple Pay with NO CONNECTION whatsoever!

Amazing huh? Just get your phone out and double tap the home button next to the reader. Your fingerprint serves as your pin. Your fingerprint never leaves the device, your payment information never leaves the device. It just establishes a TLS encrypted connection with the terminal and then transmits your number.

One that also changes every time it is used. Similar to how 2FA works(if you can comprehend it, I am sure you are probably 100 years old and don't understand the benefit). It also does not require internet access.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's a 40 mile round trip right there for me"

Its your choice to live in the middle of nowhere. I imagine other services are equally inconvenient for you.

Not peer to peer digital payments. I even transfer money to my wife this way.

Just another clueless boooomer that thinks his way was the best possible way ever.

All Hail the New World Order

[OrangeTide]

The US is merely the headquarters of the world plutocracy but there are many vassal states that bow to our corporate masters.

All of Western Europe orbits around the US. And rather than trying to throw off the shackles of oppression they are vying to claim the crown as capital nation of plutocracy.

Re:There is also the possibility of electronic 'ca

[Anonymous Coward]

They where like giftcards, but they worked everywhere. Charge it with $50 and you could only lose/spend $50.

Frankly, god idea, but poor implementation. You couldn't use them in regular card terminals, and the cards were personal/non-transferable so you couldn't give a friend some "cash" for your half of a pizza.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

My credit union is 150 miles away. I just mail the few checks I receive to them along with a deposit slip. There are several post boxes on my daily route, but the post office is only 6 blocks away (~1.5 miles). I used to pay my rent with a check, but these days it's all ACH transactions, cash and credit.

Some banks here allow you to deposit a check by taking a picture of it using a smartphone application.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Archfeld]

Home button ? It doesn't have a home button, the wonderful LG vn-251s does not have a touch screen or a reader or have QR support. In fact it just has a slide out keyboard and makes phone calls. But even if it did I don't want auto payment, I don't want my anonymous phone associated with my bank account or debit card or anything to do with Apple. Just like I don't want cashless transactions that leave a trail a nose less dog could follow. I like the anonymity of using cash. I don't even use my debit card except when I can't possibly avoid it. The convenience is not worth the sacrifice in my opinion. As for what I can comprehend, I understand you are a pretentious ass with an inflated view of your self and your assumption that what you want is what everyone wants shows your ignorance.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Martin Blank]

Some banks can be a giant PITA about it. A few years ago, I got a check for an account at Wells Fargo and, because I needed the money right then and didn't have the same amount of cash in my account, I went to cash it at the local Wells Fargo. They wanted ID (of course), but they also wanted thumbprints and a $5 service charge for cashing the check drawn on an account at their bank. Because I needed the cash, I did it, but it was one of a long string of issues that made me despise them.

Now, I just use the app on my phone to deposit most checks I get. It's kind of tedious, but it's not horrible. If I know I'm going to be near my bank, I'll deposit them there just so they're not laying around my office for a couple of weeks while I make sure the deposit goes through.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[darth.hunterix]

Not quite. The can either have one secure file encrypted with AES where they store all card numbers (with possibility of having last 4 digits in separate not-encrypted file) OR store unique tokens generated with SALTED card number (last 4 digits are in that case forbidden). You can't have both. And salting the hashes gives you full benefit of 256-bit entropy.

Name is indeed allowed, but considered bad business practice, as most customers find it creepy. Most companies responsible for terminal software don't use that option for this reason.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Viol8]

"Not peer to peer digital payments. I even transfer money to my wife this way."

Why, has she left you so you can't just give her cash?

"Just another clueless boooomer that thinks his way was the best possible way ever."

Soryr, wrong generation, try again. Not everyone under the age of 40 is in love with tech for its own sake.

It's discriminating against foreigners

[Anonymous Coward]

It's discriminating against foreigners. Swedish banks will not let you open an account without a Swedish Personnummer. My foreign bank card charges a small % with every payment abroad. Swedes should vote with their wallets if they really are against a cashless society!

Irrational paranoia

[DaveV1.0]

It is hard to argue that you cannot trust the government when the government isn't really all that bad

Basically, a bunch of dipshit so-called anarchists like to whine about the government and having to follow laws. They never consider that people like me exist who would kill them for being rude, annoying, and stupid.

Re:Why would you want any other way ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt a bank employee would know what to do with a cheque if you presented one in 2018. If they are under 40, they may not even know these things ever existed.