I'd be curious if you were talking about the consumer sonicwalls or the business class ones. Feature for feature the top 4 Sonicwalls outpace ZyXel's best. 100Ipsec connections? Not even gigabit access?
Of course if you're comparing it to a consumer grade product they aren't so bad.
This isn't the first wifi VOIP phone and I know this company has another model or two but how do they perform in a WDS environment?
I'm in a situation where we have a VOIP phone system in-house with between 3 and 7 APs across a 2 square mile radius. I'd be curious to know if it drops the call when it switches APs. I know most proxim cards don't if you're on a laptop but d-links do. I won't get into the quality of dlink wireless products. ugh
Anywho, with a standby time of 24 hours and a 4 hour talk time its not too bad. It doesn't look like the radio is very sensitive so I imagine this thing requires a quality signal but thats really to be expected.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Tripwire!
Best thing since sliced bread, only wish it was priced like it too on platforms other than Linux.
Course it begs the question, if you've been compromised and tripwire tells you can't you just restore and create a new baseline with the proper update? Seems like it would limit potential damage from malware although with an intrusion the damage would be done.
I would say I'm open to any evidence presented in front of me. Personally I don't believe in god because I believe god to be an undefined word. What can god do that a human with enough knowledge can't?
So it would depend on your view. I certainly believe that their are creatures in the universe than know more than we do.
I think most people expect evolution to answer the end question of where we came and it simply doesn't offer any evidence for this nor do I believe it should.
We've seen macro evolution happen even with our lifetimes. In fact there was an article about it a few days ago. Basically we that under certain conditions our biochemistry will dramatically shift causing mutation.
Intelligent Design I think does the least to explain where we came from for the very reasons you stated in your post. I also think the start point is completely rediculous. Nothing spontaneously grew and I think its rather pointless at this time to understand that far back.
Back to the discussion at hand though, I do think that this fundimental debate should have ended a long time ago. The whole evolution is theory crap we saw on the text books of Georgia were a true wakeup that people haven't gotten the message. Even if Intelligent Design somehow played a part in our origins evolution does occur and can be shown again and again in labs using accepted scientific practices. Let's move on and call it a law since as of yet there is no contradictory evidence and there has been a great deal of verified study.
This waiting for everyone to agree stuff is what is keeping the country at a stand still. At some point someone has to lay it out for them. The origins are not explained with evolution so stop trying to associate the two. Once we do that it will be accepted and we can move on to more prevalent research. Everything seems to be encountering the same resistence, stem cell and genetic research both see these same problems and in my mind that is where the next technological revolution will come from.
Unless you're giving the elder cli access and thats it, do you honestly think and 8 year old PC would run KDE okay? Especially the latest versions found in FC4?
That just seems silly. Now throwly RH 9 on there instead would make more sense, or even RH 7 if you're talking 8 years ago. They are starting to merge together for me so I don't remember which versions came out when.
At any rate, I don't see how any of this is really news. Win2k was fast for me even back when it was new, I beta tested it on a 486 100mhz box. It is fairly efficient and light when compared with XP which struggles on anything slower than 300mhz. Of course, XP is dramatically newer so I'm of the mind that is not so bad. In my mind Linux and Windows have led rather parallel lives in this regard.
Sorry, this is a weak point. Although I agree that DDOS is a bad solution it won't take down other people on the same box simply because of connection thresholds.
Apache, IIS, or any enterprise level web server allows you to specify the maximum number of connections a particular virtual host can serve. Thus, you will take down the site without effecting other virtual hosts on the same box.
So a measured response would be less detrimental to the system. However, I totally don't agree with two wrongs make a right. You would be utilizing your ISPs bandwidth possibly getting them into hot water with their provider.
In the end, I think more and more people will just go to a whitelist and post a form on their website so people can email them for the first time. As for me right now, I have a perimeter mail server which forwards mail back to my internal server. I configured the external server not to allow emails saying they are from my domain since no one uses that email server for outgoing emails. It reduced my spam by about 40%
I wish there was a simple solution for this problem. I think perhaps we need better connection tracking, mail servers need to enforce reverse dns lookup. Right now if all mail servers had a proper lookup record I could cut my spam almost completely. Of course there will always be new methods.
That is what Directory Services Repair mode is for, a reinstall was not required.
I've never had an issue getting Unix/Linux/OS X to talk to AD. Of course with OS X I have to turn off session signing because for some reason Apple crippled Samba.
I really think AD is easy to use for 90% of people and installs out there. Naturally it won't work for everybody because some people have truly unique needs.
We run a few auctions a year and each time I setup a WDS with six APs. I cover at the very least a square mile with these. They all have the same SSID and they are all on the same channel. So as far as any wireless device is concerned I just have one really nice AP.
This is one reason I can't comprehend how they come up with the figures the "report". All you need is a nice Orinico AP, a 1watt amp, and a nice antenna and you're good to go. The WDS system works very well especially if you have an onsite TFTP server so you can make updates to all of their configurations simultaneously minimizing administration.
Lot of options out there and yes, I find most consumer Wifi systems suck and have crap for range. Then again, placing the AP up higher usually fixes the problem. Maybe people just think it should work anywhere they choose to put the stuff? Bury it in your computer desk or put it behind a monitor. Yeah thats a great idea!
You're exactly right, at my company we were faced with a dilemma. Either buy MS SQL Enterprise and Cluster for about 50 grand or by Oracle Standard and Cluster for about 30 grand. Needless to say we chose Oracle.
Perhaps more importantly, Oracle allows you to test and develop for free. I can't imagine there are very many software companies out there that pirate it. That is one company that has got it right.
When mySQL or some similar come to a level playing ground with Oracle I can imagine there will be another switch, but I don't see that happening anything in the near future which is a good thing since we just purchased Oracle!
At any rate, EULA's and unsupported software with forced upgrades I believe are pushing the pirate angle. Realistically as a kid learning Photoshop I can't see paying for it until you are using it in a commercial setting. Maybe that's just me though.
Movies like reefer madness are great examples that always give me this feeling.
I'm not sure if you're joking or actually being serious since smoking pot would likely mean you're going too slow to hit the biker in the drive-thru but a lot of people seem to believe that some things are more harmful than others.
Its hard saying whether prohibition helps or hurts but in the majority of cases I'd say it is only hurting causing the loss of tons of tax dollars. Seems like it would be more beneficial to legalize it all and use the money to establish some treatment programs and some real education programs. I bet it would cost a lot less than what is spent fighting the war on drugs.
There will always be people who abuse anything. Same goes with file swapping. I think kids these days need to be taught more about what rights they do and do not have. I know when I was going through school it was just after most of the civics programs had been cut. I took it upon myself to learn as much as I can but it is really something that needs to be taught throughout the age groups. Too many people don't realize what the constitution really means and what the Bill of Rights does for everyone. That is why so much shit has happened like DMCA, PATRIOT Act, and several smaller policy changes.
I'm not sure if they are saying the security lapses exist because its popular but that they will be discovered because they are popular.
I don't think true evidence exists because its common sense. Its the whole reason people see open source projects such as Apache as superior. When you have a bunch of people looking at something one of them is very likely to discover a problem that others missed.
This is a tired argument, I've got a few hundred PCs in my network and none of them have ever spread a worm. The network has been around for 10 years and this has been the case.
Yes the OS makes it mighty easy to screw up but it also allows a user to take action to protect themselves.
It isn't perfect thats for sure but this argument needs to stop. All the machines properly setup particularly these days with SP2 and Firefox are generally about safe. Start running IE and you run into problems but if you lock it down and cripple it you can generally still keep yourself safe.
I think the reason why people refuse to believe OS X is fundimentally more secure is simply because Apple hasn't been in the networking business for very long. They really have no proven track record. They do however utilize bits and pieces of software that does. Whether or not it is inherently secure is up for debate. Last I checked Samba on OS X did not support signing.
We'll see, in addition to our PCs we also have a few Macs that also run flawlessly barring hardware issues like anything else.
Perhaps because the democratics aren't in a position to effect change as much as republicans?
I can't say what the parent truly meant, just what it looked like to me.
At any rate you're right. Neither party is guilt free, we've seen it with all kinds of policians regardless of party. It is the reason we need to restrict funding, convincing our representatives of that is exceedingly more difficult. Definitely isn't right but as long as people keep electing someone like Bush it will continue; in the U.S. at least.
I remember the CEO of BE complained to the DOJ about this. Toshiba had agreed to pick up BeOS but MS forced them down. The CEO has wanted to testify about that but it never came up in court for some reason. Boy he was pissed.
Do you know how MS makes this determination? No, it doesn't get plucked out of a hat. I had an MS representative call me the other day asking about this kind of stuff.
They have a massive technet network along with MSDN. That gives them a semi-knowledgeable base to ask these kinds of questions to.
Further down the line they will show them betas and get feedback. Despite what you may think, most of the features MS implements are asked for by corporate America.
I am not defending Microsoft, this is issue is so tired I've about given up. Everyone keeps making assumption after assumption and it accomplishes nothing. So far almost everyone has tried to put words in my mouth and accuse me of defending a company when I'm merely trying to balance this out and put everything into perspective.
They made a mistake eight years ago, they repeated said mistake except this time a safeguard they put in place mitigated the risk. Its not a perfect solution obviously but it sure sounds better than just repeating the exact same thing again. No one acknowledges that this company has done any work and practically everyone seems to think they have to be perfect.
As for blaster, I manage 45 servers, 3 of them are MS SQL, 1 is Oracle, and 1 is mySQL. I run Solaris, Gentoo, and yes, lots of Windows. I see many problems universally. I don't care what platform they are, I care that they perform the task I give them. I haven't had a hiccup in 4 years and yes, I am connected to the Internet running fulltime with a website that has seen a few hits.
Lazy admins exist, MS makes the damage they can cause much greater but in the end I blame the admin for not properly securing their website. You do what you can to limit your risk and bashing a company that is trying to shift its focus on security is not going to help anybody.
I've spent far too much time defending my position. It is obvious that is has fallen on not only def, but hostile ears. It is most pointless for me to continue.
You did not state it was irrelevent, you asked me a further question to which I replied.
In addition to this, I stated why I said MS was two years old and it has nothing to do with anything you just said. Until 2 years ago MS did not consider security a priority and as such probably did not bother with regression testing or very much QA at all considering their past practices. Two years time is not a lot to create a management system that will do all of this automatically and I see it as an easy mistake to miss.
Also you are assuming MS actually fixed the problem 8 years ago. There is a difference between fixing an underlying issue and just adding a rule that states if packet meets conditions drop.
Software does however, degrade. Right here on slashdot we've seen how numorous OS's stand up against time. Adding software can and does break other servers, it can happen in any environment.
I never argued that this exploit was unfixable, merely that it is not as easy as everyone is making it out to be. I can't see how MS would have made it a priority with the numerous other exploits available that have no patch or fix of any kind.
You seem to be focused on this one specific issue rather than the issue as a whole. There are more than 300 million lines of combined code with extremely complex dependencies. You strip out the networking layer to say, insert new firewall and you neglect to put back an old patch because you've inserted said firewall negating the need to patch it in the code. Windows is more than an OS, it provides all kinds of services right or wrong that is what it does.
All that said, I can't say how MS fixed the problem initially, although I suspect it was more than just a packet rule. I can't say for certain that reinserting the fix wouldn't cause a problem for another part of Windows and I don't really think you can either. The problem seems simple, but there are always variables to complicate everything.
The last three replies all say the same thing so I will reply here.
I did not say that Microsoft was exempt from quality control on their coding. I said they are not a security company. You shouldn't expect the same level of competancy this soon. They will screw up from time to time, happened as a good when I was learning about it too. Still happens to this day. Expecting perfection from a 2 year old will not lead to the product you are looking for. I say a two year old because that is how long ago MS said it was going to make security one of its primary concerns. I genuinely believe they are trying but there are a ton of variables they face while trying to hold on to their existing customers.
I do find it most humorous that so many people have made this assumption though. How many years did it take for Ford to bring the Mustang back from the stinker they put it in?
Let's see you make a change to a networking object among 300 million lines of combined code and not miss a step.
So I take it you never got any defective seals? You can fix the pipe, check it, it won't leak. Then two weeks later it will start back up. Even worse, maybe the leak was caused because people were shoving large objects down there. Thus, fixing the one problem did not stop it from occuring again. Hell, maybe cold weather froze the pipes causing them to crack because someone poured boiling water down them.
I'm sorry you don't see how this relates to patching software as it is essentially the same task to the end user.
My statement that Microsoft is not a security company does not mean that they care or don't care about security. Its that they are not experts in the field. They are new to the business and people seem to keep forgetting that they created OS's in the past designed to make work, then they made it pretty, and now they are in the process of trying to make it work right. That's a big job fixing all the past mistakes while trying to keep developing new products.
Your statement about security is correct, its hard! As such MS is going to make mistakes, its going to make a lot of them, people that use their products should know this before buying anything.
There is a reason large corporation use one firewall for their perimeter and then another right behind it from a different company. Everyone will make mistakes so you as the consumer take steps to mitigate those risks. Right or not, its the reality.
As for reintroducing an old problem, have you ever tried to fix a leaky pipe? Guess what? You're gonna spill some water while you try to fix it. What do you do to minimize this? You shut off the water to reduce the amount of water damage while you are repairing the leaky pipe.
You seem to think that they fixed the exploit 8 years ago rather than patching it. I'll bet that is exactly what happened. They remove a dependency which had a dependency which contained a dependency that fixed the exploit.
As for having the firewall on by default. I in know suggested that it was a shortcut, I merely stated that it was a temporary fix that they could retain while they fixed the problem. I don't what is wrong with this? Would you rather they keep every machine exposed while they fixed the issue?
Sorry but seems clear you don't grasp the size of the problem and yes it is a problem with security. Most of Microsoft's customers are corporate. They cannot and will not make a change to their operating system that will destroy functionality without providing an alternative. It won't happen, its not realistic to expect so.
As for security being a primary focus: What's your point here? You think they go from being network centric to security centric overnight? Seriously, 2 years is nothing in the grand scheme. There are several hundred million installs of Windows around the world so when you fix something its going to take quite a bit of work to make it perfect. I'd even go as far as saying they couldn't make it perfect, by the time they did the world would have moved on.
Slashdot Mirror
Of course if you're comparing it to a consumer grade product they aren't so bad.
I'm in a situation where we have a VOIP phone system in-house with between 3 and 7 APs across a 2 square mile radius. I'd be curious to know if it drops the call when it switches APs. I know most proxim cards don't if you're on a laptop but d-links do. I won't get into the quality of dlink wireless products. ugh
Anywho, with a standby time of 24 hours and a 4 hour talk time its not too bad. It doesn't look like the radio is very sensitive so I imagine this thing requires a quality signal but thats really to be expected.Best thing since sliced bread, only wish it was priced like it too on platforms other than Linux.
Course it begs the question, if you've been compromised and tripwire tells you can't you just restore and create a new baseline with the proper update? Seems like it would limit potential damage from malware although with an intrusion the damage would be done.So it would depend on your view. I certainly believe that their are creatures in the universe than know more than we do.
We've seen macro evolution happen even with our lifetimes. In fact there was an article about it a few days ago. Basically we that under certain conditions our biochemistry will dramatically shift causing mutation.
Intelligent Design I think does the least to explain where we came from for the very reasons you stated in your post. I also think the start point is completely rediculous. Nothing spontaneously grew and I think its rather pointless at this time to understand that far back.Back to the discussion at hand though, I do think that this fundimental debate should have ended a long time ago. The whole evolution is theory crap we saw on the text books of Georgia were a true wakeup that people haven't gotten the message. Even if Intelligent Design somehow played a part in our origins evolution does occur and can be shown again and again in labs using accepted scientific practices. Let's move on and call it a law since as of yet there is no contradictory evidence and there has been a great deal of verified study.
This waiting for everyone to agree stuff is what is keeping the country at a stand still. At some point someone has to lay it out for them. The origins are not explained with evolution so stop trying to associate the two. Once we do that it will be accepted and we can move on to more prevalent research. Everything seems to be encountering the same resistence, stem cell and genetic research both see these same problems and in my mind that is where the next technological revolution will come from.That just seems silly. Now throwly RH 9 on there instead would make more sense, or even RH 7 if you're talking 8 years ago. They are starting to merge together for me so I don't remember which versions came out when.
At any rate, I don't see how any of this is really news. Win2k was fast for me even back when it was new, I beta tested it on a 486 100mhz box. It is fairly efficient and light when compared with XP which struggles on anything slower than 300mhz. Of course, XP is dramatically newer so I'm of the mind that is not so bad. In my mind Linux and Windows have led rather parallel lives in this regard.Apache, IIS, or any enterprise level web server allows you to specify the maximum number of connections a particular virtual host can serve. Thus, you will take down the site without effecting other virtual hosts on the same box.
So a measured response would be less detrimental to the system. However, I totally don't agree with two wrongs make a right. You would be utilizing your ISPs bandwidth possibly getting them into hot water with their provider.In the end, I think more and more people will just go to a whitelist and post a form on their website so people can email them for the first time. As for me right now, I have a perimeter mail server which forwards mail back to my internal server. I configured the external server not to allow emails saying they are from my domain since no one uses that email server for outgoing emails. It reduced my spam by about 40%
I wish there was a simple solution for this problem. I think perhaps we need better connection tracking, mail servers need to enforce reverse dns lookup. Right now if all mail servers had a proper lookup record I could cut my spam almost completely. Of course there will always be new methods.I've never had an issue getting Unix/Linux/OS X to talk to AD. Of course with OS X I have to turn off session signing because for some reason Apple crippled Samba.
I really think AD is easy to use for 90% of people and installs out there. Naturally it won't work for everybody because some people have truly unique needs.This is one reason I can't comprehend how they come up with the figures the "report". All you need is a nice Orinico AP, a 1watt amp, and a nice antenna and you're good to go. The WDS system works very well especially if you have an onsite TFTP server so you can make updates to all of their configurations simultaneously minimizing administration.
Lot of options out there and yes, I find most consumer Wifi systems suck and have crap for range. Then again, placing the AP up higher usually fixes the problem. Maybe people just think it should work anywhere they choose to put the stuff? Bury it in your computer desk or put it behind a monitor. Yeah thats a great idea!Perhaps more importantly, Oracle allows you to test and develop for free. I can't imagine there are very many software companies out there that pirate it. That is one company that has got it right.
When mySQL or some similar come to a level playing ground with Oracle I can imagine there will be another switch, but I don't see that happening anything in the near future which is a good thing since we just purchased Oracle!At any rate, EULA's and unsupported software with forced upgrades I believe are pushing the pirate angle. Realistically as a kid learning Photoshop I can't see paying for it until you are using it in a commercial setting. Maybe that's just me though.
Movies like reefer madness are great examples that always give me this feeling.
I'm not sure if you're joking or actually being serious since smoking pot would likely mean you're going too slow to hit the biker in the drive-thru but a lot of people seem to believe that some things are more harmful than others.Its hard saying whether prohibition helps or hurts but in the majority of cases I'd say it is only hurting causing the loss of tons of tax dollars. Seems like it would be more beneficial to legalize it all and use the money to establish some treatment programs and some real education programs. I bet it would cost a lot less than what is spent fighting the war on drugs.
There will always be people who abuse anything. Same goes with file swapping. I think kids these days need to be taught more about what rights they do and do not have. I know when I was going through school it was just after most of the civics programs had been cut. I took it upon myself to learn as much as I can but it is really something that needs to be taught throughout the age groups. Too many people don't realize what the constitution really means and what the Bill of Rights does for everyone. That is why so much shit has happened like DMCA, PATRIOT Act, and several smaller policy changes.That's enough of my rant
I don't think true evidence exists because its common sense. Its the whole reason people see open source projects such as Apache as superior. When you have a bunch of people looking at something one of them is very likely to discover a problem that others missed.
Yes the OS makes it mighty easy to screw up but it also allows a user to take action to protect themselves.
It isn't perfect thats for sure but this argument needs to stop. All the machines properly setup particularly these days with SP2 and Firefox are generally about safe. Start running IE and you run into problems but if you lock it down and cripple it you can generally still keep yourself safe.I think the reason why people refuse to believe OS X is fundimentally more secure is simply because Apple hasn't been in the networking business for very long. They really have no proven track record. They do however utilize bits and pieces of software that does. Whether or not it is inherently secure is up for debate. Last I checked Samba on OS X did not support signing.
We'll see, in addition to our PCs we also have a few Macs that also run flawlessly barring hardware issues like anything else.I can't say what the parent truly meant, just what it looked like to me.
At any rate you're right. Neither party is guilt free, we've seen it with all kinds of policians regardless of party. It is the reason we need to restrict funding, convincing our representatives of that is exceedingly more difficult. Definitely isn't right but as long as people keep electing someone like Bush it will continue; in the U.S. at least.I remember the CEO of BE complained to the DOJ about this. Toshiba had agreed to pick up BeOS but MS forced them down. The CEO has wanted to testify about that but it never came up in court for some reason. Boy he was pissed.
They have a massive technet network along with MSDN. That gives them a semi-knowledgeable base to ask these kinds of questions to.
Further down the line they will show them betas and get feedback. Despite what you may think, most of the features MS implements are asked for by corporate America.They made a mistake eight years ago, they repeated said mistake except this time a safeguard they put in place mitigated the risk. Its not a perfect solution obviously but it sure sounds better than just repeating the exact same thing again. No one acknowledges that this company has done any work and practically everyone seems to think they have to be perfect.
As for blaster, I manage 45 servers, 3 of them are MS SQL, 1 is Oracle, and 1 is mySQL. I run Solaris, Gentoo, and yes, lots of Windows. I see many problems universally. I don't care what platform they are, I care that they perform the task I give them. I haven't had a hiccup in 4 years and yes, I am connected to the Internet running fulltime with a website that has seen a few hits.Lazy admins exist, MS makes the damage they can cause much greater but in the end I blame the admin for not properly securing their website. You do what you can to limit your risk and bashing a company that is trying to shift its focus on security is not going to help anybody.
I've spent far too much time defending my position. It is obvious that is has fallen on not only def, but hostile ears. It is most pointless for me to continue.In addition to this, I stated why I said MS was two years old and it has nothing to do with anything you just said. Until 2 years ago MS did not consider security a priority and as such probably did not bother with regression testing or very much QA at all considering their past practices. Two years time is not a lot to create a management system that will do all of this automatically and I see it as an easy mistake to miss.
Also you are assuming MS actually fixed the problem 8 years ago. There is a difference between fixing an underlying issue and just adding a rule that states if packet meets conditions drop.I never argued that this exploit was unfixable, merely that it is not as easy as everyone is making it out to be. I can't see how MS would have made it a priority with the numerous other exploits available that have no patch or fix of any kind.
All that said, I can't say how MS fixed the problem initially, although I suspect it was more than just a packet rule. I can't say for certain that reinserting the fix wouldn't cause a problem for another part of Windows and I don't really think you can either. The problem seems simple, but there are always variables to complicate everything.
I did not say that Microsoft was exempt from quality control on their coding. I said they are not a security company. You shouldn't expect the same level of competancy this soon. They will screw up from time to time, happened as a good when I was learning about it too. Still happens to this day. Expecting perfection from a 2 year old will not lead to the product you are looking for. I say a two year old because that is how long ago MS said it was going to make security one of its primary concerns. I genuinely believe they are trying but there are a ton of variables they face while trying to hold on to their existing customers.
I do find it most humorous that so many people have made this assumption though. How many years did it take for Ford to bring the Mustang back from the stinker they put it in?Let's see you make a change to a networking object among 300 million lines of combined code and not miss a step.
I'm sorry you don't see how this relates to patching software as it is essentially the same task to the end user.
We were talking about this scaring people with production servers and I was stating the issue is moot for most setups, granted, not all, but most.
Your statement about security is correct, its hard! As such MS is going to make mistakes, its going to make a lot of them, people that use their products should know this before buying anything.
There is a reason large corporation use one firewall for their perimeter and then another right behind it from a different company. Everyone will make mistakes so you as the consumer take steps to mitigate those risks. Right or not, its the reality.You seem to think that they fixed the exploit 8 years ago rather than patching it. I'll bet that is exactly what happened. They remove a dependency which had a dependency which contained a dependency that fixed the exploit.
As for having the firewall on by default. I in know suggested that it was a shortcut, I merely stated that it was a temporary fix that they could retain while they fixed the problem. I don't what is wrong with this? Would you rather they keep every machine exposed while they fixed the issue?Sorry but seems clear you don't grasp the size of the problem and yes it is a problem with security. Most of Microsoft's customers are corporate. They cannot and will not make a change to their operating system that will destroy functionality without providing an alternative. It won't happen, its not realistic to expect so.
As for security being a primary focus: What's your point here? You think they go from being network centric to security centric overnight? Seriously, 2 years is nothing in the grand scheme. There are several hundred million installs of Windows around the world so when you fix something its going to take quite a bit of work to make it perfect. I'd even go as far as saying they couldn't make it perfect, by the time they did the world would have moved on.