2.2 CUSTOMER agrees not to distribute the SOFTWARE in any form, other than for CUSTOMER's own internal, non-commercial, research purposes.
2.3 CUSTOMER agrees to refrain from and is expressly prohibited from reverse engineering, reverse compilation, disassembly or decomposition of the SOFTWARE.
But if this only applies to software that they completly own there is nothing wrong with it.
The original story indicates that there is incompatibility between copyright (protecting intellectual property) and GPL. In fact GPL is BUILT on copyright. It is the ownership of the copyright to source code under GPL that prevents anyone from violating the GPL. This is in fact what makes it different from public domain.
Mr. Shack: You know, I can't afford to give these things away if people are going to find non-shopping-at-radio-shack
uses for them.
Mr. Cat: No problem. My engineer* assure me that the device can only be used with the custom radio shack software. It
would take an infinite number of hackers on an infinite number of keyboards until the heat death of the universe to reverse
engineer a driver for it.
Mr. Shack: That's a relief. If someone came up with another way to use it, I would have to sue CatCo. out of existence!
Mr. Cat (to self):Oh, sh!t, there is a driver on freshmeat already!
Mr. Cat (to his law firm): You guys are down one client if you can't get that driver erased from the internet!
What do we learn from this? Nothing. We already knew that suits don't understand technology.
Well, from my point of view, having closed source software listening on an open port is unacceptable.
Protecting the database is clearly the cornerstone of any software of this type working. The way I do it is I keep the database on a (physically) write protected floppy. I have a cron job that runs the binary from this same floppy and emails the results to root. (I have even considered putting a second fdd in the system and physically cutting the WE line on the ribbon cable.)
Another alternative would be to burn the db out and then put it in a CD-ROM (note the "RO" in ROM.)
Or you could keep it on a floppy and check it by hand.
I use Aide (http://www.cs.tut.fi/~rammer/aide.html,) and it does the trick. It isn't all "gee whiz" but it is VERY configureable. (for instance use any or all of about a half a dozen checksums.)
It is GPL, so you can run it on commerical boxes for free, too;-)
So if you want to security policy to include "it should be an interesting [licensing] experiment" use this thing.
As much as we complain about bad legislation, we (in the US) are fortunate that market forces still dominate.
I think that the best shot we have at redemption from DMCA and other bad laws is to boycott "content" and pay for "art."
WE have the technology to bypass movie studios and record labels.
WE as geeks tend to have non-technology interests and talents, such as music and film making.
If WE distribute art (as opposed to banal "content") with express forfeiture of certain copyrights (like
prohibition of fair use) WE can ALL have our rights!
If we fuse napster and paypal functionality in an OPEN way, I think we will be will on our way to overthrowing "content
tyrants" and restoring both art and freedom in our society.
Sorry if this sounds over-the-top, but I am upset by all of this.
1. Can't stand nagware. Won't shell out for software unless it is pretty damn good (Opera is about an 8, I won't pay for less
than I 10) (Great, now I can never run for public office, because that will be quoted out of context.)
2. No Java. Now Java ain't no friend of mine, but I really can't get along without it at this point.
As someone who supported desktops for Dell I can testify that most users are dumbasses. There is, however, a significant
number of "non-hackers" (or whatever) who would be better off running Linux, but don't because PC magazine (which is
horribly misnamed) keeps saying that it is "not ready for the desktop."
So, if "desktop" is a euphemism for "dumbass" I apologize for being obtuse. If not, I can attest that in many cases installing
and using Linux (say, Red Hat or Mandrake) is easier than installing and using Windows.
I also have to say you picked a poor example with the VCR. I have managed to bang a "not ready" Linux distro into a quite
useable desktop system for me and for my wife (Jo Schmoe) yet my VCR insists that it is 12:00 (blink, blink) (I may have
found the only acceptable usage of the blink tag, but cant use it on slashdot! argh!)
They all suck ass. Netscape is SUCH a memory hog. I am very disappointed the way Mozilla has bloated. I just hope that
it will fork and someone will strip it down to a nice, standards based engine and a decent interface. Or maybe Konq will
save the world.
But as for IE, it is often prettier, and supports more crappy proprietary extensions, but it sure crashes a lot. I run it on Win2k
sometimes, Win2k is a lot more stable than Win98.
All told, I think they all suck more or less equally. But I am praying for the day something that doesn't suck comes along.
I think you thought that you were disagreeing with me when you said each has advantages and disadvantages. Actually
you were echoing my point. On desktops where Linux systems come out ahead in advantages, it is quite ready for the
desktop.
I have to disagree with the "average user" idea, though.
My Dad is an "average user," but he doesn't play games, and he doesn't watch video on his system.
He uses the browser, word processor, spreadsheet, a database manager (and several DBs) and SMB file and print
sharing. All of which can be done at least as well (and less expensively) on a GNU/Linux system.
Why doesn't he? Because the media (and now even Torvalds?!?) tells him he should keep shucking out the bucks to
Redmond!
He won't listen to me because "Open systems guys are a bunch of irresponsible longhairs."
Argh.
I think you also assume that I want Linux systems to "overtake Windows as a desktop OS". I don't want this any more
that I want Porsches to overtake minivans as highway vehicles. But I would object to them being portrayed as inferior, or
needing to "catch up" with minivans because of there lesser grocery toting ability. Especially if I drove one.
I also agree that "Linux" (actually XFree86) could stand to improve in performance related tasks (notably video and 3D)
This would make GNU/Linux (which, at this point might be better called GNU/Apache/XFree86/Linux) systems a more
well-rounded desktop. Not that it would benefit my Dad (the average user) any.
It is fundamentally untrue that "Linux is not ready for the desktop."
I use Linux as my primary desktop OS.
I am not a programmer.
I understand that it is not appropriate for most (l)users, but that does not make it "not ready."
My grandmother does not drive a Porsche, it would be too much for her, and wouldn't carry groceries well, but that doesn't make it "not ready for the highway."
In the same way, Linux does not make a good platform for Word and AOL, but that does not make it not ready.
This whole "not ready for the desktop" idea revolves around the assumption that there is some ideal desktop for everyone, and that Windows (or MacOS) is closer to this that "Linux" (really, KDE or GNOME or Windowmaker, or something) and that "Linux" has further to go towards this ideal.
I disagree. For me, customizability is king, and "Linux" takes the prize in this field. (note: BeOS might, but HW support is too weak -for me-)
I see what you are saying about names, and I did not do it thoughtlessly.
My post would have no potential to have any sort of positive impact without this information. I honestly believe that no one
else will be able to figure out who these people are.
Said another way, I would be okay with using full names if I were saying this stuff to anyone who could possibly figure out
who they are, based on the abbreviations I used.
Frankly, I truly believe that these people are harming Dell by there incompetence (or possibly failure to follow M. Dell's
direction) and, beyond forcing me out of the job, the are harming me, and my fellows, by dragging the stock down. This
being the case, they need to be called on the carpet. Clearly they would have to be called by name.
First, let me say that you aren't half as glad that I am no longer with Dell as I am.
I am not sure what you find unprofessional about my post. Unless you are working with the standard corporate
definition that "failing to toe the party line" is unprofessional.
I am very interested in what you have to say. I really hope that you reply, either here or by email, and explain
to me what was unprofessional about what I said.
The reason for my post was to reveal the hypocrisy in "positioning" Dell as a "Linux company" while the
underlings do things that are EXACTLY counter to this position.
I just quit Dell Server Support about a month ago. About two weeks later, a friend of mine, who was the only
other person in the department competent to do level 2 support for Linux quit.
Dell server support has plenty of Linux "boot camp" graduates, or people who suddenly realized it is "cool,"
but all of the real experience was driven out of the department. I, really, by Michael J. and I suspect my
friend really had to leave because of Gene B.
I hate to post this, because I am a stock holder, and I am losing my ass right now, but Dell is driving good
people away because they don't "fit the mold." I want to see Dell succeed (because when Dell does well I
make money) but I couldn't, in clear conscience, recommend a Dell server with Linux factory installed
because there is no one to support it.
It seems that today Dell as all "alliances" and no substance.
There are a couple of things here that are incorrect.
1. Windows 9X sits on top of DOS. While Win9X is closer to being an OS in its own right than Win 3.x, it is
still, really, a "bundle" of DOS and Windows.
2. That 32bit command prompt you refer to is IN A WINDOW. The GUI is, in fact, loaded, but it is running in VGA
mode without the Explorer interface.
In my opinion, buying a bundle of DOS and windows and expecting to be able to use the DOS portion is
neither "idiodic [sic]" nor "stupid."
I'm not a doctor, but I learned some basic first aid in the Boy Scouts, and the Army.
I'm pretty sure 3rd degree burns involve charring of the skin.
My point is, I am pretty sure that you can't get 3rd degree burns from what amounts to water. (Maybe coffee can get a bit higher due to its natural oils, etc. But you state it was 180 (I assume it was 180 F.)
Right? Fluid water (at one atmosphere) can't be more that 212F. I think that second degree burns (redness and significant blistering) are possible at this temp, but I am pretty confident that 3rd degree burns would not be possible.
Why the diatribe? Because it is my opinion that the burns were described as "3rd degree" to "spin" the story, and make the posters claims more "moving."
You know, I get tired of people blindly believing what they are told about foxes. Foxes are one of the most
trustworthy creatures in the animal kingdom!
<parody>
Hey, guy, I was making the statement that the government can't be trusted to monitor its self.
We could spend years citing period references, trying to figure out who's right.
But that's not the point. I was alluding to the popular conception of American history. Whether or not it is
accurate is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
I have just gotten out of tech support, so let me shed a little light from that perspective.
What you have to do to avoid finger pointing is ISOLATE the problem BEFORE you call.
For example, you have a problem with the tape drive on your RS\6000, using some non-IBM tape backup software. BEFORE you pick up the phone, try tar. Now you know who to call. Since it is IBM's tape, in IBM's system, with IBM's tar it is IBM's problem if it doesn't work. OTOH, if it works, when you call your backup (or DB) vendor and tell them their software is goofy. If (when) they try to point at IBM you tell them, "Hmm, works with tar."
See?
Again, from a tech support guys point of view, this is YOUR JOB. Using a single vendor makes your job easier, because you don't have to figure out who to call. But it is not the tech support guys fault if you just call the vendor who's product is exhibiting the SYMPTOM, if it is not the component that actually has the PROBLEM. You will be the victim of finger pointing as long as you don't believe it is your responsibility to isolate the problem before you pick up the phone.
Please don't interpret that last paragraph as "finger pointing is the customers fault." It is not. The vendor should say "It is possible, or even likely that the problem is in fooware. Here is how we can make sure our product, barsoft, is working correctly." Bad support techs don't do this. (Actually, this is a management problem, but that's another thread.)
The point is sometimes you will get bad tech support. Doing your homework is how you avoid finger pointing.
Unless you have "undefeatable" hardware protection, you can't stop people from copying a media stream.
It took, what, less than two days, for that MS music protection system to be completely defeated? Even if you can't defeat the format, if I can play it, I can record it.
Of course people should be able to set their own price fro their work. That is what a free market is all about. But just because something SHOULD be a certain way, does not mean that you should turn a blind eye to reality.
First, I am a feminist, so fuck you. I don't think that women are so weak that they are hurt by the use of words that are both masculine and neuter.
Second, I don't buy into "everyone does it so it is right." Using a plural pronoun is a poor solution to an imaginary problem.
Finally, I am at work, and I am using MS Word to spell check my posts then paste it into the comment box. Word "fixes" my quotes in the process. When I preview (in IE) it looks fine. So I suck for using MS. So I quit. Friday is my last day. Hopefully I will never have to use word again.
Actually I appreciate you pointing this out. (because I can take criticism without freaking out;-P )
The license is bad:
2.2 CUSTOMER agrees not to distribute the SOFTWARE in any form, other than for CUSTOMER's own internal, non-commercial, research purposes.
2.3 CUSTOMER agrees to refrain from and is expressly prohibited from reverse engineering, reverse compilation, disassembly or decomposition of the SOFTWARE.
But if this only applies to software that they completly own there is nothing wrong with it.
The original story indicates that there is incompatibility between copyright (protecting intellectual property) and GPL. In fact GPL is BUILT on copyright. It is the ownership of the copyright to source code under GPL that prevents anyone from violating the GPL. This is in fact what makes it different from public domain.
-Peter
Just which version of Doom came with a level editor?
-Peter
Mr. Shack: You know, I can't afford to give these things away if people are going to find non-shopping-at-radio-shack
uses for them.
Mr. Cat: No problem. My engineer* assure me that the device can only be used with the custom radio shack software. It
would take an infinite number of hackers on an infinite number of keyboards until the heat death of the universe to reverse
engineer a driver for it.
Mr. Shack: That's a relief. If someone came up with another way to use it, I would have to sue CatCo. out of existence!
Mr. Cat (to self):Oh, sh!t, there is a driver on freshmeat already!
Mr. Cat (to his law firm): You guys are down one client if you can't get that driver erased from the internet!
What do we learn from this? Nothing. We already knew that suits don't understand technology.
*MCSE
No need to reboot, but I do say damn the uptime and reboot if you've seriously just changed every piece of code in the box ;-}
Ahh, grasshopper. It is time to reveal the secret of uptime.
init 1
init 4
Well, from my point of view, having closed source software listening on an open port is unacceptable.
Protecting the database is clearly the cornerstone of any software of this type working. The way I do it is I keep the database on a (physically) write protected floppy. I have a cron job that runs the binary from this same floppy and emails the results to root. (I have even considered putting a second fdd in the system and physically cutting the WE line on the ribbon cable.)
Another alternative would be to burn the db out and then put it in a CD-ROM (note the "RO" in ROM.)
Or you could keep it on a floppy and check it by hand.
-Peter
I use Aide (http://www.cs.tut.fi/~rammer/aide.html,) and it does the trick. It isn't all "gee whiz" but it is VERY configureable. (for instance use any or all of about a half a dozen checksums.)
;-)
It is GPL, so you can run it on commerical boxes for free, too
So if you want to security policy to include "it should be an interesting [licensing] experiment" use this thing.
I'll stick to Aide, thanks.
-Peter
You misunderstand.
I must rely on the key of the person I am sending to to protect the message I send, for instance, IN TRANSIT!
Of course I can't stop the contents of the message from being under your control if I send it to you!!!
-Peter
I really hate having to reply to my own post.
I missed the part "As it is gnuPG doesn't honor ADK requests"
Nevermind . . .
-Peter
I don't know squat about cryptography, but it seems like key generation is only half the problem.
The other half is that a reliable PGP implimentation should refuse ENcrypt using a public key with unsigned ADKs.
I am pretty concerned about this, because I have to rely on SOMEONE ELSES (possibly compromised) key to protect what I say.
Or am I off base here?
-Peter
It is really up to us.
As much as we complain about bad legislation, we (in the US) are fortunate that market forces still dominate.
I think that the best shot we have at redemption from DMCA and other bad laws is to boycott "content" and pay for "art."
WE have the technology to bypass movie studios and record labels.
WE as geeks tend to have non-technology interests and talents, such as music and film making.
If WE distribute art (as opposed to banal "content") with express forfeiture of certain copyrights (like
prohibition of fair use) WE can ALL have our rights!
If we fuse napster and paypal functionality in an OPEN way, I think we will be will on our way to overthrowing "content
tyrants" and restoring both art and freedom in our society.
Sorry if this sounds over-the-top, but I am upset by all of this.
-Peter
I've used opera a few times.
Couple of problems.
1. Can't stand nagware. Won't shell out for software unless it is pretty damn good (Opera is about an 8, I won't pay for less
than I 10) (Great, now I can never run for public office, because that will be quoted out of context.)
2. No Java. Now Java ain't no friend of mine, but I really can't get along without it at this point.
3. As you say, UNIX versions suck.
-Peter
As someone who supported desktops for Dell I can testify that most users are dumbasses. There is, however, a significant
number of "non-hackers" (or whatever) who would be better off running Linux, but don't because PC magazine (which is
horribly misnamed) keeps saying that it is "not ready for the desktop."
So, if "desktop" is a euphemism for "dumbass" I apologize for being obtuse. If not, I can attest that in many cases installing
and using Linux (say, Red Hat or Mandrake) is easier than installing and using Windows.
I also have to say you picked a poor example with the VCR. I have managed to bang a "not ready" Linux distro into a quite
useable desktop system for me and for my wife (Jo Schmoe) yet my VCR insists that it is 12:00 (blink, blink) (I may have
found the only acceptable usage of the blink tag, but cant use it on slashdot! argh!)
Let's talk browsers.
They all suck ass. Netscape is SUCH a memory hog. I am very disappointed the way Mozilla has bloated. I just hope that
it will fork and someone will strip it down to a nice, standards based engine and a decent interface. Or maybe Konq will
save the world.
But as for IE, it is often prettier, and supports more crappy proprietary extensions, but it sure crashes a lot. I run it on Win2k
sometimes, Win2k is a lot more stable than Win98.
All told, I think they all suck more or less equally. But I am praying for the day something that doesn't suck comes along.
Let me downlaod HotJava . . .
-Peter
I agree with nearly everything you said.
I think you thought that you were disagreeing with me when you said each has advantages and disadvantages. Actually
you were echoing my point. On desktops where Linux systems come out ahead in advantages, it is quite ready for the
desktop.
I have to disagree with the "average user" idea, though.
My Dad is an "average user," but he doesn't play games, and he doesn't watch video on his system.
He uses the browser, word processor, spreadsheet, a database manager (and several DBs) and SMB file and print
sharing. All of which can be done at least as well (and less expensively) on a GNU/Linux system.
Why doesn't he? Because the media (and now even Torvalds?!?) tells him he should keep shucking out the bucks to
Redmond!
He won't listen to me because "Open systems guys are a bunch of irresponsible longhairs."
Argh.
I think you also assume that I want Linux systems to "overtake Windows as a desktop OS". I don't want this any more
that I want Porsches to overtake minivans as highway vehicles. But I would object to them being portrayed as inferior, or
needing to "catch up" with minivans because of there lesser grocery toting ability. Especially if I drove one.
I also agree that "Linux" (actually XFree86) could stand to improve in performance related tasks (notably video and 3D)
This would make GNU/Linux (which, at this point might be better called GNU/Apache/XFree86/Linux) systems a more
well-rounded desktop. Not that it would benefit my Dad (the average user) any.
It is fundamentally untrue that "Linux is not ready for the desktop."
I use Linux as my primary desktop OS.
I am not a programmer.
I understand that it is not appropriate for most (l)users, but that does not make it "not ready."
My grandmother does not drive a Porsche, it would be too much for her, and wouldn't carry groceries well, but that doesn't make it "not ready for the highway."
In the same way, Linux does not make a good platform for Word and AOL, but that does not make it not ready.
This whole "not ready for the desktop" idea revolves around the assumption that there is some ideal desktop for everyone, and that Windows (or MacOS) is closer to this that "Linux" (really, KDE or GNOME or Windowmaker, or something) and that "Linux" has further to go towards this ideal.
I disagree. For me, customizability is king, and "Linux" takes the prize in this field. (note: BeOS might, but HW support is too weak -for me-)
Windows is not ready for MY desktop.
-Peter
Thank you for following up.
I see what you are saying about names, and I did not do it thoughtlessly.
My post would have no potential to have any sort of positive impact without this information. I honestly believe that no one
else will be able to figure out who these people are.
Said another way, I would be okay with using full names if I were saying this stuff to anyone who could possibly figure out
who they are, based on the abbreviations I used.
Frankly, I truly believe that these people are harming Dell by there incompetence (or possibly failure to follow M. Dell's
direction) and, beyond forcing me out of the job, the are harming me, and my fellows, by dragging the stock down. This
being the case, they need to be called on the carpet. Clearly they would have to be called by name.
-Peter
First, let me say that you aren't half as glad that I am no longer with Dell as I am.
I am not sure what you find unprofessional about my post. Unless you are working with the standard corporate
definition that "failing to toe the party line" is unprofessional.
I am very interested in what you have to say. I really hope that you reply, either here or by email, and explain
to me what was unprofessional about what I said.
The reason for my post was to reveal the hypocrisy in "positioning" Dell as a "Linux company" while the
underlings do things that are EXACTLY counter to this position.
-Peter
I just quit Dell Server Support about a month ago. About two weeks later, a friend of mine, who was the only
other person in the department competent to do level 2 support for Linux quit.
Dell server support has plenty of Linux "boot camp" graduates, or people who suddenly realized it is "cool,"
but all of the real experience was driven out of the department. I, really, by Michael J. and I suspect my
friend really had to leave because of Gene B.
I hate to post this, because I am a stock holder, and I am losing my ass right now, but Dell is driving good
people away because they don't "fit the mold." I want to see Dell succeed (because when Dell does well I
make money) but I couldn't, in clear conscience, recommend a Dell server with Linux factory installed
because there is no one to support it.
It seems that today Dell as all "alliances" and no substance.
-Peter
There are a couple of things here that are incorrect.
1. Windows 9X sits on top of DOS. While Win9X is closer to being an OS in its own right than Win 3.x, it is
still, really, a "bundle" of DOS and Windows.
2. That 32bit command prompt you refer to is IN A WINDOW. The GUI is, in fact, loaded, but it is running in VGA
mode without the Explorer interface.
In my opinion, buying a bundle of DOS and windows and expecting to be able to use the DOS portion is
neither "idiodic [sic]" nor "stupid."
-Peter
I'm not a doctor, but I learned some basic first aid in the Boy Scouts, and the Army.
I'm pretty sure 3rd degree burns involve charring of the skin.
My point is, I am pretty sure that you can't get 3rd degree burns from what amounts to water. (Maybe coffee can get a bit higher due to its natural oils, etc. But you state it was 180 (I assume it was 180 F.)
Right? Fluid water (at one atmosphere) can't be more that 212F. I think that second degree burns (redness and significant blistering) are possible at this temp, but I am pretty confident that 3rd degree burns would not be possible.
Why the diatribe? Because it is my opinion that the burns were described as "3rd degree" to "spin" the story, and make the posters claims more "moving."
-Peter
> like a fox watching the hen house.
You know, I get tired of people blindly believing what they are told about foxes. Foxes are one of the most
trustworthy creatures in the animal kingdom!
<parody>
Hey, guy, I was making the statement that the government can't be trusted to monitor its self.
We could spend years citing period references, trying to figure out who's right.
But that's not the point. I was alluding to the popular conception of American history. Whether or not it is
accurate is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
So, take your history fetish elsewhere, okay?
-Peter
I for one have faith in King George. Why would he want to harm his loyal subjects?
Government, by its very nature, will exploit and trample the rights of its people. Therefore, people must actively and vigorously defend their rights.
-Peter
I have just gotten out of tech support, so let me shed a little light from that perspective.
What you have to do to avoid finger pointing is ISOLATE the problem BEFORE you call.
For example, you have a problem with the tape drive on your RS\6000, using some non-IBM tape backup software. BEFORE you pick up the phone, try tar. Now you know who to call. Since it is IBM's tape, in IBM's system, with IBM's tar it is IBM's problem if it doesn't work. OTOH, if it works, when you call your backup (or DB) vendor and tell them their software is goofy. If (when) they try to point at IBM you tell them, "Hmm, works with tar."
See?
Again, from a tech support guys point of view, this is YOUR JOB. Using a single vendor makes your job easier, because you don't have to figure out who to call. But it is not the tech support guys fault if you just call the vendor who's product is exhibiting the SYMPTOM, if it is not the component that actually has the PROBLEM. You will be the victim of finger pointing as long as you don't believe it is your responsibility to isolate the problem before you pick up the phone.
Please don't interpret that last paragraph as "finger pointing is the customers fault." It is not. The vendor should say "It is possible, or even likely that the problem is in fooware. Here is how we can make sure our product, barsoft, is working correctly." Bad support techs don't do this. (Actually, this is a management problem, but that's another thread.)
The point is sometimes you will get bad tech support. Doing your homework is how you avoid finger pointing.
-Peter
I thought we had put this to rest.
Unless you have "undefeatable" hardware protection, you can't stop people from copying a media stream.
It took, what, less than two days, for that MS music protection system to be completely defeated? Even if you can't defeat the format, if I can play it, I can record it.
Of course people should be able to set their own price fro their work. That is what a free market is all about. But just because something SHOULD be a certain way, does not mean that you should turn a blind eye to reality.
-Peter
First, I am a feminist, so fuck you. I don't think that women are so weak that they are hurt by the use of words that are both masculine and neuter.
;-P )
Second, I don't buy into "everyone does it so it is right." Using a plural pronoun is a poor solution to an imaginary problem.
Finally, I am at work, and I am using MS Word to spell check my posts then paste it into the comment box. Word "fixes" my quotes in the process. When I preview (in IE) it looks fine. So I suck for using MS. So I quit. Friday is my last day. Hopefully I will never have to use word again.
Actually I appreciate you pointing this out. (because I can take criticism without freaking out