Being able to "Google" an answer is not the same thing as being able to understand and solve problems. Unfortunately many people today believe that Google = Intelligent at their own demise.
Having a university degree only proves that you are willing to do whatever busywork it takes to graduate, not that you actually know anything at all, that you paid attention in class, or even that you were smart in the first place
Thirty years ago I probably thought very similar, but today I don't hold those same beliefs.
Wisdom is being able to draw on, and use, an accumulation of knowledge. Schools like College add much to that pool. Language, Math, Science, it all ties together. If you don't get the language you can't communicate effectively. A huge percentage of people today can't communicate effectively. More, they don't write down what was done so you end up with lots of one off shit that you can't repeat in either problem or solution. "Bob said it didn't work" is not very scientific, where "When Bob had X application open and launched Y the system panicked" at least gives you a point to begin debugging.
Having the larger knowledge pool means that you can perform a job anywhere, not just do LAMP and Puppet as I see many administrators today claim.
The classical education system really does have value. The problem today is that we are in a hurry to make huge bucks, not be intelligent and productive members of a society. Much of that is societies fault mind you. We put huge price tags on education and emphasizing garbage collection over real knowledge. I.E. Miley and Fantasy Football are the "hot topics" at work, where intellectual conversation would be "nerd/geek talk". Of course another huge issue is that we don't use the classical education system, we use the industrial education system.
In fairness if "you" are discussing how "you" were required to take a technical writing course, expressing dismay at someone's writing abilities, I would expect much more caution in what was written.
Since you refuse to use paragraphs the rest is a different story and a bit more difficult to make into conversation.
Personally I think that one of the most important questions you need to consider is, did you look at the links I provided you, and if not, why not?
Why not post back to that thread instead of tossing out what could be a herring here?
To answer your questions "Yes", I have read evidence from both sides including the links you provided. Nothing is new, it's all rehash but the list was nice and tidy. Snopes is almost laughable since they debunk common theories, but don't address the scientific questions. I still read them, even though they don't change my statements. There is no reason to answer the second question.
Did you read everything on ae911truth.org and if not why not?
There is no meaningful consequence for being wrong in this thread, but being wrong about 9/11 is going to lead you to be tempted to hold positions held by cranks, and will negatively influence your views in a number of areas. If you haven't looked at those links yet I urge you to do so, and strongly urge you to rethink your position on 9/11.
What? Really? This is propaganda and bias in an amazing level. I'm not claiming that you are alone, hell the media has ignored anyone asking valid scientific questions for a dozen years, or branded them as "crazy conspiracy theorists". That branding does not change science, and you should really reconsider that perspective. Nobody has debunked the scientific questions or concerns, they simply cover them up with ad hominem. or pretend they don't exist.
Are you really for a mentality that believes in persecution of people pursuing valid scientific questions because it's not politically correct to do so? If not, why not defend those that are valid instead of turning a blind eye or telling people to ignore it?
The lack of "science" people have today is quite alarming. It's easier to believe a lie than seek the truth if you are fooled by the uncommon lie, but we are not living in a time where there is a whole lot of truth. Lies are so common that you should be questioning everything, or at least backing people that have valid questions.
What most Germans heard was how "Jewish Terrorists" were trying to destroy Germany. They did not hear that Hitler was trying to commit genocide. Ten years is less time than the US has been at war in the Middle East, all the while hearing about Muslims trying to destroy America.
Consider a similar scenario today, if the US started rounding up Muslims in the US. How many do you know? Even if you have a family living next door, if the cops start telling you "They were plotting to destroy your town" you would be happy they were all taken away.
I'm not claiming that happens mind you, I'm claiming that if the Government could control all media it would be simple and you would never know. In fact you would be happy that they got rid of those "terrorists" plotting to kill you.
Now consider that they already control the majority of media, and people have a right to be nervous. If not for the internet today, it's not hard to believe that the US could be on a similar path.
'm not sure what lead you to interject in this thread at this point, but let me provide you with a simplifying assumption you can make when you respond to my posts, especially it relates to warfare in general, and WW2 in particular. If you think I'm wrong, the most useful reaction for you to have initially is to wonder what is it about my post that you (s. petry) don't understand that would make you think that I (Cold Fjord) am wrong
What? Let me do this step by step.
You stated "Wake me up when there is official censorship of both personal mail and the media (newspapers, magazines, radio, television), a massive draft and the military expands by something like 20x, rationing is in place for food, gasoline, and other "luxury" goods, Civil Defense organizations police the use of electric lights at night, propaganda posters are everywhere, and so forth, like in WW2, and WW1 for that matter."
That statement sets up a scenario for living under fascism which you finalize with "Don't get me wrong, there are reasons for concern, areas where there needs to be vigilance, but the US isn't exactly squirming under the heels of the boots of fascism."
What I stated is that none of those things are required to live under fascism, and in fact people that were in Germany (my relatives) never saw the world as you and media portray living under a dictatorship or fascism.
My relatives from Germany are more worried about what's been happening in the US than anyone I know from the US because they lived through a regime. They never saw anti-Jew propaganda, they saw propaganda that "Jewish terrorists" were harming Germany. They never had blackouts, to them life was pretty normal until the bombings of Germany and the allied invasion. They knew there was a war, and they did have to give most food into Government but they were told that Germany was being attacked and needed to defend itself.
Now I agree with some of your point, just not how you get there. As mentioned already, to the citizens it does not take a whole lot of fooling to dupe a public into believing a false reality.
And I'm not claiming that there was no anti Jew propaganda, but the presentation was the the Jews were trying to destroy Germany, they were terrorists and bogey men to the regime. I mentioned concentration camps because even though Hitler killed millions of people, most people had no clue that there were camps designed for mass killings.
You should really talk to people from the era and check history. There were no electrical blackouts until near the end of the war. There were not massive amounts of propaganda everywhere. It was a subtle thing to most Germans who were fighting for patriotism. At the end of the war, US soldiers marched German citizens through concentration camps because they thought the US was lying about the mass killing of Jews.
Except it's not just to find out "why". Hell, in the Asiana airline crash they new "why". It's to validate that everything assumed is correct.
Look, maybe you are not sure how things work especially in a catastrophe so let me help, as when I was in the Army we had an event where 2 F-16s crashed during a mission. My battalion was sent out to the field to pick up every piece they could find within a 5K square area. We picked up every scrap, in addition to some very large engine pieces (head on collision at mach 1.2 had more engine debris than a 757 at 300mph), pilot helmets and cloth scrap were included. Neither pilot survived, and ATC knew which planes they were. That said, they pieced together the scraps to find what they could in order to validate that the planes that collided were what they already "knew".
It is not just the Military that does this, this is what the FAA does in _every_ other plane crash except for 9/11. This was done for every other terrorist act in history as well, so for 9/11 they broke the protocol. Not once mind you, but twice. They also broke protocol for the investigations of the buildings, so it's a whole debacle of protocol being broken in evidence gathering for scientific investigation.
As stated, I think the more obvious conclusion is that people were incompetent. That is of course a bare minimum statement, but that incompetence leads to dead ends of scientific investigation. Meaning that other questions can't be answered.
After 12 years, not a single frame of security video can be released to ensure that the plane that hit the Pentagon was in fact a plane? The 7 frames of video released show a small white plume of smoke, not a plane. Every security tape was confiscated from everything within range. The Government answer is "prove it wasn't a plane" which is a logical fallacy (proving a non-existent) and they should have the evidence to make all of the questions be answered.
If you compare what was reported from PA and the Pentagon, they don't match any other impact crash in history. There is a nice tidy Wiki page with every commercial airplane crash, including photographs. Most acts of terrorism also have photos. If you review those, and read experts in the field, they simply don't match.
Read ae911truth.org, they ask some very good questions for which there is no answer.
Claiming we are not given all the facts is not claiming that the Government did it. When the evidence was destroyed from those two crash sites, questions become doubled. The FAA, Military, etc.. have never gone in and cleaned up debris without an investigation. Look at how long the crashed plane sat on the runway in SF for example. They build tents around the debris and investigate, they photograph and analyze. Whereas at the Pentagon and PA, they had people walking around picking up pieces the same day and tossing them into trucks for immediate disposal.
The 911 commission did a hurry up job which did nothing to satisfy a real investigation. I think it's more likely that they were covering up incompetence than collusion, but both of those are speculations because we don't have enough facts. When over 3,000 architects, physicists, and engineers have questions it's more than "just a couple conspiracy theorists" as many people claim.
Why does it matter? If a couple of buildings fall from a fire, which is the first time a steel structure ever fell, they want to know what was wrong in the design to build safer buildings. An inferno hit a partially built structure in Spain, and not a single beam collapsed. Not only did the two main towers collapse at WTC, small buildings never touched like building 7 seemed to implode./p?
If the Government grants that all people have the "right to pursue...", would the logical conclusion be that the same Government can not prevent nor can they hinder that pursuit? That statement is a restriction on the Government, not claiming "you can't have it" or "only in a perfect world".
Personally I am always amazed at the wording of our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence. The eloquence in simplicity is something lost on most today, where see politicians try to bury the real meaning under heaps of rhetoric.
I'll see your Adblock and raise you a NoScript and block all cookies. Still imperfect, but it seems to work very well.
That said, there is something rather disturbing to point out. Why do people buy things from these people? If people did not purchase from shitty telemarketers, they would simply vanish (and I hope they eventually do). But enough people buy the trash to keep the shitty business practices in business. The same is true with targeted ads on web pages.
I honestly have no clue why anyone would purchase something based on an advertisement. I won't buy pants because they are in a magazine or displayed on a sign, I buy them because I go to the store and have a tangible moment with the pants. I can inspect quality, fit, colors. I do the same with nearly everything (music is an exception, but generally I can sample music ahead of time).
Some people out there have a very different way of thinking. Enough people to support the advertisers obviously.
For posterity, I should add that you can believe that our social justice system is wrong and that yours is correct. That would make you a psychopath, sociopath, or some other form of what we would consider mental disorder. I'm claiming that you can't have _both_ beliefs held simultaneously as "right" or "correct" forms of justice.
The presumption of innocence applies to a trial, not public discussions.
What? No it does not! The presumption of innocence is a statement regarding Justice. Justice is not part of the courts or a trial, it's a responsibility for every member of society all of the time. To believe that you should publicly discuss a person by assuming guilt then have the court system have to do the opposite should cause you so much cognitive dissonance your head should explode.
Seriously, stop and think about what you just said really really hard. What you are stating is that you can firmly believe in a form of justice that is exactly the opposite of society's form of justice.
FYI I am using the definition of Justice provided by Socrates, which every society since has tried to follow.
While it's an obvious troll, again (oh gasp), that is a fact. There is no plane debris from the Pentagon, just like there is no plane debris from Pennsylvania. Read the Government reports and show me any evidence. You don't have to like reality, but it's still real. Stay in happy delusion land troll.
I never stated that no FDA employees were furloughed, I claimed that you were wrong in stating that they were _all_ furloughed. Inspectors that I'm positive were not furloughed were meat inspectors, which was validated in the link below.
In fairness, I used a generalization which I can not find validation for. It appears that only meats and poultry were being inspected, not _all_ inspectors.
That I was wrong in my generalization does not make your generalization correct. I admit my use was wrong, will you do the same?
Fair point, I'm digging further but already answered some. As to MSNBC vs. NBC it really makes little difference since the MSNBC logo is is displayed on the article you linked, and the owners are the same.
At the F.D.A., about 45 percent of the agency’s staff members are furloughed. “F.D.A. is doing what it can under this difficult situation to protect public health,” said Steven Immergut, the agency’s assistant commissioner for media affairs.
Which shows that the 60% number is flat out wrong, I'm still digging for the reports from day 2 which said the FDA inspectors would not be interrupted, but even according to the story on the 10th I linked above, meat plant inspection was never interrupted.
One other quick point: If Obama made sure enough park rangers got paid to harass WW II vets and barricade open air monuments, he could have made sure that the FDA was fully staffed.
I'm doubting the accuracy of your MSNBC report. MSNBC is just as bad as Fox when it comes to selling bullshit, so I'm going to do more digging. On the first Tuesday of the shutdown it was reported that the FDA would still be inspecting everything that needed inspection because the establishment was already using that as a "we're all doomed" vehicle. I do know that CA had FDA inspectors on site at the company selling bad chicken before any changes were made to the shut down, which backs my initial statement.
I just used your own evidence to show you were wrong, I won't claim that MSNBC presented facts.
From your source, not mine. Fox my ass, I don't get news from Fox either.
The Food and Drug Administration has 60 percent of its 1,602 investigators on furlough, according to an administration spokesman – and the effects on the country’s food supply may last well beyond the shutdown’s expiration date, whenever that may be, experts said.
The date is also the 8th, and was changed the following Monday due to issues in CA for which the FDA didn't even matter as the manufacturer in essence said "we don't care what the Government say's, we are not shutting down" which has nothing to do with the FDA but a legal matter.
Perhaps you were just giving partial facts to make your point and didn't mean For instance, the FDA was considered non-essential because the country could still function for a while without food inspection which indicates all of the FDA not at work? Giving partial facts to back your point instead of real facts is still dishonest isn't it?
Ahh yes, coming into a conversation at a convenient point always helps with putting a dig in where you want it correct?
I never said the same thing over and over, I showed how the writing is used to convey the point with as few words as possible. The wording is eloquent in both conservation and choice of words. The meaning is not vague as people claim, it's very specific.
Repeat much propaganda? Food inspectors were not on furlough. Those people were considered essential. Most DOD workers were not on furlough. Most contractors were not on furlough either, because contracts are all paid up front in Government work.
Go back and read what I stated, then go do some fact checking. Nothing I said is wrong, everything you claimed is wrong.
I was a federal employee for 3 years, but I left 6 months ago for the private sector because the benefits, pay, and stability of a federal job were terrible. I'll say that again, the benefits, pay, and stability of a federal job is significantly worse than in the private sector.
Strawman much? First, that is a complete load of bullshit because I worked in DOD for probably longer than you have had a career. I was also Military, so save your fallacy. More importantly, it does not change anything I stated or that you lied about.
Libertarian kookiness. You realize that gold doesn't have much intrinsic value, right? And look at how much volatility there is in gold by convincing other libertarians that the world is going to explode.
Why do you have to invent things like the world exploding to back your belief? You really think that gold (or any other limited material) has less value than someones imagination? Precious minerals _do_ have intrinsic value, I think you should check the dictionary next time you attempt to belittle someone's point.
Yeah yeah, the Federal reserve has paid people to spread their bullshit for nearly a century. You are absolutely convinced that nothing is worth way more than something. When someone calls a debt due and you have "nothing" in stock, they generally won't accept that as payment.
But hell, lets ignore every economist that has been right on nearly everything with regards to the economy and where Fiat would get us. Your opinion that imaginary money has massive value is way better than any facts proving the contrary.
Slashdot Mirror
Being able to "Google" an answer is not the same thing as being able to understand and solve problems. Unfortunately many people today believe that Google = Intelligent at their own demise.
Having a university degree only proves that you are willing to do whatever busywork it takes to graduate, not that you actually know anything at all, that you paid attention in class, or even that you were smart in the first place
Thirty years ago I probably thought very similar, but today I don't hold those same beliefs.
Wisdom is being able to draw on, and use, an accumulation of knowledge. Schools like College add much to that pool. Language, Math, Science, it all ties together. If you don't get the language you can't communicate effectively. A huge percentage of people today can't communicate effectively. More, they don't write down what was done so you end up with lots of one off shit that you can't repeat in either problem or solution. "Bob said it didn't work" is not very scientific, where "When Bob had X application open and launched Y the system panicked" at least gives you a point to begin debugging.
Having the larger knowledge pool means that you can perform a job anywhere, not just do LAMP and Puppet as I see many administrators today claim.
The classical education system really does have value. The problem today is that we are in a hurry to make huge bucks, not be intelligent and productive members of a society. Much of that is societies fault mind you. We put huge price tags on education and emphasizing garbage collection over real knowledge. I.E. Miley and Fantasy Football are the "hot topics" at work, where intellectual conversation would be "nerd/geek talk". Of course another huge issue is that we don't use the classical education system, we use the industrial education system.
In fairness if "you" are discussing how "you" were required to take a technical writing course, expressing dismay at someone's writing abilities, I would expect much more caution in what was written.
Since you refuse to use paragraphs the rest is a different story and a bit more difficult to make into conversation.
Personally I think that one of the most important questions you need to consider is, did you look at the links I provided you, and if not, why not?
Why not post back to that thread instead of tossing out what could be a herring here?
To answer your questions "Yes", I have read evidence from both sides including the links you provided. Nothing is new, it's all rehash but the list was nice and tidy. Snopes is almost laughable since they debunk common theories, but don't address the scientific questions. I still read them, even though they don't change my statements. There is no reason to answer the second question.
Did you read everything on ae911truth.org and if not why not?
There is no meaningful consequence for being wrong in this thread, but being wrong about 9/11 is going to lead you to be tempted to hold positions held by cranks, and will negatively influence your views in a number of areas. If you haven't looked at those links yet I urge you to do so, and strongly urge you to rethink your position on 9/11.
What? Really? This is propaganda and bias in an amazing level. I'm not claiming that you are alone, hell the media has ignored anyone asking valid scientific questions for a dozen years, or branded them as "crazy conspiracy theorists". That branding does not change science, and you should really reconsider that perspective. Nobody has debunked the scientific questions or concerns, they simply cover them up with ad hominem. or pretend they don't exist.
Are you really for a mentality that believes in persecution of people pursuing valid scientific questions because it's not politically correct to do so? If not, why not defend those that are valid instead of turning a blind eye or telling people to ignore it?
The lack of "science" people have today is quite alarming. It's easier to believe a lie than seek the truth if you are fooled by the uncommon lie, but we are not living in a time where there is a whole lot of truth. Lies are so common that you should be questioning everything, or at least backing people that have valid questions.
What most Germans heard was how "Jewish Terrorists" were trying to destroy Germany. They did not hear that Hitler was trying to commit genocide. Ten years is less time than the US has been at war in the Middle East, all the while hearing about Muslims trying to destroy America.
Consider a similar scenario today, if the US started rounding up Muslims in the US. How many do you know? Even if you have a family living next door, if the cops start telling you "They were plotting to destroy your town" you would be happy they were all taken away.
I'm not claiming that happens mind you, I'm claiming that if the Government could control all media it would be simple and you would never know. In fact you would be happy that they got rid of those "terrorists" plotting to kill you.
Now consider that they already control the majority of media, and people have a right to be nervous. If not for the internet today, it's not hard to believe that the US could be on a similar path.
'm not sure what lead you to interject in this thread at this point, but let me provide you with a simplifying assumption you can make when you respond to my posts, especially it relates to warfare in general, and WW2 in particular. If you think I'm wrong, the most useful reaction for you to have initially is to wonder what is it about my post that you (s. petry) don't understand that would make you think that I (Cold Fjord) am wrong
What? Let me do this step by step.
You stated "Wake me up when there is official censorship of both personal mail and the media (newspapers, magazines, radio, television), a massive draft and the military expands by something like 20x, rationing is in place for food, gasoline, and other "luxury" goods, Civil Defense organizations police the use of electric lights at night, propaganda posters are everywhere, and so forth, like in WW2, and WW1 for that matter."
That statement sets up a scenario for living under fascism which you finalize with "Don't get me wrong, there are reasons for concern, areas where there needs to be vigilance, but the US isn't exactly squirming under the heels of the boots of fascism."
What I stated is that none of those things are required to live under fascism, and in fact people that were in Germany (my relatives) never saw the world as you and media portray living under a dictatorship or fascism.
My relatives from Germany are more worried about what's been happening in the US than anyone I know from the US because they lived through a regime. They never saw anti-Jew propaganda, they saw propaganda that "Jewish terrorists" were harming Germany. They never had blackouts, to them life was pretty normal until the bombings of Germany and the allied invasion. They knew there was a war, and they did have to give most food into Government but they were told that Germany was being attacked and needed to defend itself.
Now I agree with some of your point, just not how you get there. As mentioned already, to the citizens it does not take a whole lot of fooling to dupe a public into believing a false reality.
And I'm not claiming that there was no anti Jew propaganda, but the presentation was the the Jews were trying to destroy Germany, they were terrorists and bogey men to the regime. I mentioned concentration camps because even though Hitler killed millions of people, most people had no clue that there were camps designed for mass killings.
You should really talk to people from the era and check history. There were no electrical blackouts until near the end of the war. There were not massive amounts of propaganda everywhere. It was a subtle thing to most Germans who were fighting for patriotism. At the end of the war, US soldiers marched German citizens through concentration camps because they thought the US was lying about the mass killing of Jews.
Thanks for the info here, I had not known of the product until you pointed it out. I'll do some investigating and see how it works.
Except it's not just to find out "why". Hell, in the Asiana airline crash they new "why". It's to validate that everything assumed is correct.
Look, maybe you are not sure how things work especially in a catastrophe so let me help, as when I was in the Army we had an event where 2 F-16s crashed during a mission. My battalion was sent out to the field to pick up every piece they could find within a 5K square area. We picked up every scrap, in addition to some very large engine pieces (head on collision at mach 1.2 had more engine debris than a 757 at 300mph), pilot helmets and cloth scrap were included. Neither pilot survived, and ATC knew which planes they were. That said, they pieced together the scraps to find what they could in order to validate that the planes that collided were what they already "knew".
It is not just the Military that does this, this is what the FAA does in _every_ other plane crash except for 9/11. This was done for every other terrorist act in history as well, so for 9/11 they broke the protocol. Not once mind you, but twice. They also broke protocol for the investigations of the buildings, so it's a whole debacle of protocol being broken in evidence gathering for scientific investigation.
As stated, I think the more obvious conclusion is that people were incompetent. That is of course a bare minimum statement, but that incompetence leads to dead ends of scientific investigation. Meaning that other questions can't be answered.
After 12 years, not a single frame of security video can be released to ensure that the plane that hit the Pentagon was in fact a plane? The 7 frames of video released show a small white plume of smoke, not a plane. Every security tape was confiscated from everything within range. The Government answer is "prove it wasn't a plane" which is a logical fallacy (proving a non-existent) and they should have the evidence to make all of the questions be answered.
If you compare what was reported from PA and the Pentagon, they don't match any other impact crash in history. There is a nice tidy Wiki page with every commercial airplane crash, including photographs. Most acts of terrorism also have photos. If you review those, and read experts in the field, they simply don't match.
Read ae911truth.org, they ask some very good questions for which there is no answer.
Claiming we are not given all the facts is not claiming that the Government did it. When the evidence was destroyed from those two crash sites, questions become doubled. The FAA, Military, etc.. have never gone in and cleaned up debris without an investigation. Look at how long the crashed plane sat on the runway in SF for example. They build tents around the debris and investigate, they photograph and analyze. Whereas at the Pentagon and PA, they had people walking around picking up pieces the same day and tossing them into trucks for immediate disposal.
The 911 commission did a hurry up job which did nothing to satisfy a real investigation. I think it's more likely that they were covering up incompetence than collusion, but both of those are speculations because we don't have enough facts. When over 3,000 architects, physicists, and engineers have questions it's more than "just a couple conspiracy theorists" as many people claim.
Why does it matter? If a couple of buildings fall from a fire, which is the first time a steel structure ever fell, they want to know what was wrong in the design to build safer buildings. An inferno hit a partially built structure in Spain, and not a single beam collapsed. Not only did the two main towers collapse at WTC, small buildings never touched like building 7 seemed to implode./p?
If the Government grants that all people have the "right to pursue ...", would the logical conclusion be that the same Government can not prevent nor can they hinder that pursuit? That statement is a restriction on the Government, not claiming "you can't have it" or "only in a perfect world".
Personally I am always amazed at the wording of our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence. The eloquence in simplicity is something lost on most today, where see politicians try to bury the real meaning under heaps of rhetoric.
I'll see your Adblock and raise you a NoScript and block all cookies. Still imperfect, but it seems to work very well.
That said, there is something rather disturbing to point out. Why do people buy things from these people? If people did not purchase from shitty telemarketers, they would simply vanish (and I hope they eventually do). But enough people buy the trash to keep the shitty business practices in business. The same is true with targeted ads on web pages.
I honestly have no clue why anyone would purchase something based on an advertisement. I won't buy pants because they are in a magazine or displayed on a sign, I buy them because I go to the store and have a tangible moment with the pants. I can inspect quality, fit, colors. I do the same with nearly everything (music is an exception, but generally I can sample music ahead of time).
Some people out there have a very different way of thinking. Enough people to support the advertisers obviously.
For posterity, I should add that you can believe that our social justice system is wrong and that yours is correct. That would make you a psychopath, sociopath, or some other form of what we would consider mental disorder. I'm claiming that you can't have _both_ beliefs held simultaneously as "right" or "correct" forms of justice.
The presumption of innocence applies to a trial, not public discussions.
What? No it does not! The presumption of innocence is a statement regarding Justice. Justice is not part of the courts or a trial, it's a responsibility for every member of society all of the time. To believe that you should publicly discuss a person by assuming guilt then have the court system have to do the opposite should cause you so much cognitive dissonance your head should explode.
Seriously, stop and think about what you just said really really hard. What you are stating is that you can firmly believe in a form of justice that is exactly the opposite of society's form of justice.
FYI I am using the definition of Justice provided by Socrates, which every society since has tried to follow.
While it's an obvious troll, again (oh gasp), that is a fact. There is no plane debris from the Pentagon, just like there is no plane debris from Pennsylvania. Read the Government reports and show me any evidence. You don't have to like reality, but it's still real. Stay in happy delusion land troll.
I never stated that no FDA employees were furloughed, I claimed that you were wrong in stating that they were _all_ furloughed. Inspectors that I'm positive were not furloughed were meat inspectors, which was validated in the link below.
In fairness, I used a generalization which I can not find validation for. It appears that only meats and poultry were being inspected, not _all_ inspectors.
That I was wrong in my generalization does not make your generalization correct. I admit my use was wrong, will you do the same?
Fair point, I'm digging further but already answered some. As to MSNBC vs. NBC it really makes little difference since the MSNBC logo is is displayed on the article you linked, and the owners are the same.
From this.
At the F.D.A., about 45 percent of the agency’s staff members are furloughed. “F.D.A. is doing what it can under this difficult situation to protect public health,” said Steven Immergut, the agency’s assistant commissioner for media affairs.
Which shows that the 60% number is flat out wrong, I'm still digging for the reports from day 2 which said the FDA inspectors would not be interrupted, but even according to the story on the 10th I linked above, meat plant inspection was never interrupted.
One other quick point: If Obama made sure enough park rangers got paid to harass WW II vets and barricade open air monuments, he could have made sure that the FDA was fully staffed.
I'm doubting the accuracy of your MSNBC report. MSNBC is just as bad as Fox when it comes to selling bullshit, so I'm going to do more digging. On the first Tuesday of the shutdown it was reported that the FDA would still be inspecting everything that needed inspection because the establishment was already using that as a "we're all doomed" vehicle. I do know that CA had FDA inspectors on site at the company selling bad chicken before any changes were made to the shut down, which backs my initial statement.
I just used your own evidence to show you were wrong, I won't claim that MSNBC presented facts.
This one? If not, be more specific and I'll help you with a Google search.
From your source, not mine. Fox my ass, I don't get news from Fox either.
The Food and Drug Administration has 60 percent of its 1,602 investigators on furlough, according to an administration spokesman – and the effects on the country’s food supply may last well beyond the shutdown’s expiration date, whenever that may be, experts said.
The date is also the 8th, and was changed the following Monday due to issues in CA for which the FDA didn't even matter as the manufacturer in essence said "we don't care what the Government say's, we are not shutting down" which has nothing to do with the FDA but a legal matter.
Perhaps you were just giving partial facts to make your point and didn't mean For instance, the FDA was considered non-essential because the country could still function for a while without food inspection which indicates all of the FDA not at work? Giving partial facts to back your point instead of real facts is still dishonest isn't it?
Ahh yes, coming into a conversation at a convenient point always helps with putting a dig in where you want it correct?
I never said the same thing over and over, I showed how the writing is used to convey the point with as few words as possible. The wording is eloquent in both conservation and choice of words. The meaning is not vague as people claim, it's very specific.
Repeat much propaganda? Food inspectors were not on furlough. Those people were considered essential. Most DOD workers were not on furlough. Most contractors were not on furlough either, because contracts are all paid up front in Government work.
Go back and read what I stated, then go do some fact checking. Nothing I said is wrong, everything you claimed is wrong.
I was a federal employee for 3 years, but I left 6 months ago for the private sector because the benefits, pay, and stability of a federal job were terrible. I'll say that again, the benefits, pay, and stability of a federal job is significantly worse than in the private sector.
Strawman much? First, that is a complete load of bullshit because I worked in DOD for probably longer than you have had a career. I was also Military, so save your fallacy. More importantly, it does not change anything I stated or that you lied about.
Libertarian kookiness. You realize that gold doesn't have much intrinsic value, right? And look at how much volatility there is in gold by convincing other libertarians that the world is going to explode.
Why do you have to invent things like the world exploding to back your belief? You really think that gold (or any other limited material) has less value than someones imagination? Precious minerals _do_ have intrinsic value, I think you should check the dictionary next time you attempt to belittle someone's point.
Yeah yeah, the Federal reserve has paid people to spread their bullshit for nearly a century. You are absolutely convinced that nothing is worth way more than something. When someone calls a debt due and you have "nothing" in stock, they generally won't accept that as payment.
But hell, lets ignore every economist that has been right on nearly everything with regards to the economy and where Fiat would get us. Your opinion that imaginary money has massive value is way better than any facts proving the contrary.