"Wow, when did KDE get a 3D XML based programming and presentation layer, that uses hardware acceleration without letting the OS have OpenGL take over?"
Dude. Until you get a 3D XML based programming and presentation layer that used hardware acceleration without openGL you SUCK!. Anybody who does not have a 3D XML based programming and presentation layer is going to DIE.
"I'm trying to figure out how you own anything, yet can't afford anything. "
Have you even been to a poor person's house? They have things in them. Things like clothes, furniture, toys for the kids, etc. Of course these things are old, cheap, and undesirable. You can't just put them up on ebay and make yourself a few hundred dollars. The idea that they could sell all of their stuff to buy a bus ticket is kind of a joke.
"I also beleive there is no reason for being poor beyond personal choice."
As I said, most republicans agree with you. That's why the govt took no action when the poor were dying in NO.
"So rather than spend billions of US tax dollars of rebuilding a poor city, we should (if we are going to spend it) educate the peope so that they do not need to live in such poor conditions."
I think it's a wonderful idea to educate people. Alas that's seen as a socialist idea and this govt is not in favor of it so much.
"I can't say about the rest of the world, but the US is not socialist, though there are a few psuedo socialist programs. "
Nonsense. The largest portion of the US budget is "discretionary spending" meaning social security, medicare, medicaid etc. A country which spends more money on social welfare programs then any other program is a socialist country by any definition of the word. Add to that the fact that US builds and maintains roads, railways and other infrastucture, provides free education for kids, provides subsidies for farming, ranching, mining, and virtually every other industry known to man, after school programs, parks and recreation, etc and you will see that more then 75% of the us budget is spend on socialist programs.
If you judge by the amount spent the US is the largest socialist state in the world, if you measure by percentage then we are not the largest but we are in the top 50.
"Other socialist ideals are equality, and inability for ownership of personal property, two things we do not have in the US. I'd like to get further into this but this is not the place."
Yes US is less socialist then other countries but it's still a very socialist country. SOcialism is the most succesful form of govt and indeed the only form of govt that really works. Countries which have shied away from socialism have all ended up are cespools.
"A PHP application by itself can not cache. There is a big difference between writing your application so that it can use an external program as its "cache" and having something that is implemented in the language and can be set transparently."
And yet the end result is that a PHP application can cache. Strange how that works out huh?
"Additionally, you have to make EXTERNAL calls to an application running as a seperate daemon/process on your system. Not only is there a performance penalty in doing that (a pretty hefty one too if you're using something older than PHP 5), but it also means you're dependent on an outside process."
You mean as opposed to RMI, JMI and other socket based protocols right?
"Except they can't cache across multiple servers/instances."
Right. I already said that the only time Java will scale larger then php is when you spread your application across multiple servers. Since PHP can already store session data on shared storage or a database that's the only point at which java is more scalable. Up to that point PHP is as fast if not faster then java.
"Because that question depends on millions of variables. There's a big difference between me saying "In some cases PHP does not scale" and you asking for a specific number"
So you were full of shit when you said PHP can't scale. What you meant to say is that the choice of platform is just one of a million different variables which may get in the way of the scalibility of your application.
"I'll tell you right now, as I said about 30 times before, if you're doing something like collating numerous (10,20+) datafeeds (external/internal) that are customized for thousands of users, you'd be a fool to do it in PHP."
Why? Is it because "php doesn't have an IDE" or is it because "PHP can't cache". I don't think I will take your opinion on this. So please do tell us why it's not possible for PHP to handle more then 20 datafeeds that are customized for thousands of users. Exactly what about PHP prevents you from cutomizing feeds?
"So yea... go away "pro." Come back when you educate yourself about BOTH technologies instead of obviously blindly arguing one."
You made the assertion that PHP applications don't scale. I am still waiting for you to tell me at which point PHP applications fall down. That way we can both agree that any point below that line PHP is just as good if not better then Java.
"ou need to use something NOT written in php. You have to use an application that has NOTHING to do with PHP (other than PHP can use it.)"
Right. A PHP application can cache. Thanks for admitting that you were wrong again.
"That is why I've been arguing about caching this whole time. You need to use the database smartly, not hit it everytime somebody accesses the home page just for their first name."
Right, and you have also admitted that PHP applications can cache.
"Obviously if you don't store the session in the db that's ok... where do you store it? Do you know? Do you actually know internally what php does for sessions that are not db backed? I'll let you look that one up, I'm sick of giving you real information everytime I respond."
Either on disk or in memory, depends on how you wrote the application. I stored my on disk which was fine because I was only running on one machine.
"I'm not answering because its a stupid question. "
Really? You started this whole thread by stating that PHP applications don't scale. Now you refuse to state how far up they can scale.
"And your java experience must be awesome considering you basically admitted to not even knowing how to set a classpath (your "I'd have half the application done by the time you've set your classpath and xml files" comment)"
Once again. By the time you set your classpath and written your XML descriptors a good PHP programmer would be halfway to done.
"Wouldn't you know it, Greyhounds ticketing system is not working when I want to prove the fair to travel within the state of LA (I'm just saying move above sea level) is less the $25. Not only that if the people were afraid to risk losing everything than they would have even more reason to get out of New Orleans."
Leaving takes much more then a bus ticket. Like I said most people can not afford to leave everything they own behind. The upper class can because they are insured, they live in neighborhoods that are less likely to suffer from looting and theft, and worst comes to worst they make enough money to get back all their belonging given enough time.
Poor people don't have any of those options.
'I, and many others, was not born privilaged, nor where I live now. I was born on the other side of the country, about as far apart as you can get. But rather than deal with the threat of huriccans, earthquakes, floods and other natural disasters I moved to some place safe. I feel for the kids who's parents are too stupid to get there kids out of a bad area, but I don't feel for the adults. But sorry to say, I can't get my way, and so those poor kids will probably be sent back to live with their unfit parents in a dangerous land that no mater how you look at it was not intended for human life. But hey I can look on the bright side and be thankful that they are rebuild, so next years issue of "Girls Gone Wild" will have it's share of seens out of Mardi Gras."
Again many republicans agree with you. Since the govt is being run by republicans it just makes sense that they simply looked at the problem as being self inflicted and one not worthy of govt intervention. Only when the rest of the country was outraged did the govt act to actually help those people.
Most likely in a more socialist country (all of the first world are socialist contries some more then others) people would not be allowed to live in those areas. More socialist countries tend to have the govt taking a more active role in environmental protection and designation of liveable areas. A less socialist country like the US let's people live wherever they want.
By the way congratulations. If you are a socialist they you must be proud that it is the only succesful form of govt. Every single country in the first world and vast majority of the second world countries are socialist. Only the most dismal and rotten third world countries have no socialist policies in place and as a result are a festering breeding grounds of crime, disease and terrorism.
On the other hand conservation saves you money, and is easier on the atmosphere of your community.
When you think of it the only people that conservation hurts are the oil companies. Why wouldn't you conserve, carpool, walk more, bike more, drive a smaller car, turn off your lights, watch less TV etc, wear a sweater indoors etc.
"WTF, who is so unfortunate they can't move? seriouslly it cost $25 to get on a bus to move to higher land. You could probably hitch it for free. And finding a job paying minimum wage is pretty easy to do anywhere in this country."
Most of the people who died were destitute, old, or sick.
You need more then $25.00 (although that's hard to come by for a lot of people), you also need to be able move and to you need to be able to risk losing everything you have. It's not like these people were insured or anything.
"In the end, until the US is a socialist country, or the government mandates where you live, you have the choice to move and the government should not be responsible if you chose to live in a high risk area (like some where that you look up too see ships!)."
Many people agree with you. I think that's the number one reason the govt waited so long to react, they simply didn't think it was the job of the govt to help dying people. After all this is one of the core values of the republican party. The idea that people should be left to fend for themselves.
Having said that I am glad you finally admitted you were wrong on that.
"If you are using PHP you need to use OTHER technology in addition to PHP to make caching work."
Most people run apache (written in C) and mod_jk (also written in C). Again though it doesn't matter. You have now admitted that your original assertion about caching was wrong. A PHP application does have the ability to cache.
"You don't see how that's a problem? That if you scale the actual web server boxes up, you can't really scale the Database?"
The scalibility of the database is always the arbiter of the scalibity of your application. That's true of any language. If your database can't scale then you might as well pack it in.
Having said that I was able to take 2 to 20 hits per second without storing my session in the database and without multiple web servers. One server, one database that's it.
"Face it, YOU personally believe PHP gives you better ROI."
Well yes, I have experience with both and that's my experience.
I am now going to ask you once again the question you refuse to answer.
How big can a PHP application scale up? That's the thread topic here.
"By the way, if you hate ASP.NET you are going to loathe Avalon."
I have no plans to go anywhere near it. I was forced to use ASP.NET and VB.NET for a while and I quit after six months. Every day when I went to work I literally felt like sticking toothpics underneath my fingernails to mitigate the pain VB.net and ASP.NET were causing me. I would rather be shackled in a dungeon rather then go back to that house of horrors.
"There are IDEs for PHP. I like Jedit." Now maybe you didn't mean to imply that Jedit is an IDE, but it sure as hell sounded like it. (And JEdit's code complete is very basic... it can complete for loops, but it can't introspect packages for methods that are in the object [or maybe it now can, it couldn't a year ago"
First of all there was a reason I put a period between those two sentences. Once again (for the last time I hope). THERE ARE IDES FOR PHP. I use Jedit and used it for years for PHP development without ever once wishing I had something else.
"They do in terms of development'
There are IDEs for PHP.
"They do in terms of development. I wasn't arguing performance scability at that point, I was arguing reinventing the wheel everytime (validating code, parameter check code, database connection pooling code, insert sql statements for object code, caching code.)"
Wow. This is so stunningly weird I don't know what to say. None of that has anything to do with an IDE. None of it.
"Sorry... I assumed you knew what those products were. They're not parts of PHP (certainly memcached isn't... it's AN ENTIRELY SEPERATE DAEMON APPLICATION that can be used in ANY language.) They're other APPLICATIONS that you can use with PHP to store stuff in resident memory (since PHP can't DO THAT by itself without a bytecode compiler.) Your response is insane. It's like saying "Man, PHP can totally play Sam & Max because I can run SCUMMVM in Unix and Php runs in Unix too!""
Again weird. Jboss is a separate product, apache is a separate product, mod_jk is a separate product, hibernate is a separate product, eclipse is a separate product, resin is a separate product. What's your point again?
"It will certainly be more scalable than PHP without some bytecode optimizations or some inmemory cache products like memcached."
Bullshit.
OK, let's start from the beginning.
What is the upper limit of how large a PHP application can scale? I say a PHP application can easily handle 100 hits per second and can easily be divided to run on multiple web servers with session info stored in databases.
If you are writing an application that is going to handle 100 hits per second or less then use PHP. You will get a faster ROI from a PHP app.
Instead of taking an open spec like XUl and joining it, bettering it, and implementing it they chose to go their own way. Nothing to see here, runalong now and leave the evil people to their own devices.
i will explain it to you. ASP.NET attempts to morph the web development paradigm into the desktop development paradigm and in doing so adds a horribly complicated and inelegant structure to the whole process.
Compare ASP.NET to webobjects, tapestry, Ruby on rails etc and you will be struck by their elegance, coherence and beauty. Compared to them ASP.NET is indeed a pile (to my eyes anyway).
ASP.NET is basically aimed at VB developers who are used to working with a certain paradigm.
Dude MS is making a flash killer. It's gonna KILL flash. Macromedia is as good as dead now. So nobody better buy macromedia products or use flash or nothing. MS is going to kill flash. I know because Ballmer threw a chair across the room! MS is going to kill macromedia right after they kill borland, novell, google, oracle, SAP, Sony, Nintendo, and AOL.
"I think anyone that's done commerce-quality network programming for a while can see the real "pile" in your opinion."
Mmmm. Are you saying there are no commerce quality network programs written in webobjects? Perhaps you should take a look at the itunes store.
"From my own experience, RoR scales horribly both traffic-wise and when attempting to incorporate existing infrastructres with it, i.e. the "plays well with others" factor."
I don't doubt that this is your opinion knowing that you are a ASP.NET fan. They are so vastly different I don't think you would like anything about it.
One of the first things I do when I install a linux box is to check the entire/etc directory into CVS. I can't even begin to tell you how many times that simple act saved my ass.
I find asp.net awkward and kludgy. They tried to make web development like desktop development and in the process made it into an overly complicated, ugly, ungraceful stinking pile of cow feces.
I much prefer webobjects or even ruby on rails. ASP.NET is a pile.
You can configure apache with perl. You can just type perl code into the config file too. Most people with complex apache sites do it with perl programs that are included from the apache config file.
If you want a lighter weight editor which is very customizable and extendable I would also reccomend Jedit. I am especially fond of the XML/XSL plugins but I have more then 10 plug ins loaded at this time. Jedit is the first thing I load on any computer anymore, it's a great all around tool.
"Repeat after me. JEdit is NOT an IDE. In fact, JEdit doesn't even refer to itself as an IDE (it calls itself a "programmer's text editor.") You either don't know what an IDE is or have never used one. It's a text editor with syntax highlighting. Does it do autocomplete? No. Does it do debugging/tracing? No. Does it have integration with CVS or other source code management software? No. (Let me guess, you don't need that either!) Do you know what an IDE is? "
I never claimed that Jedit is an IDE for PHP. I simply said I used Jedit. There are IDEs for PHP though. More then one. Get that through your thick skull. Stop saying what you know is to be false. There are IDEs for PHP.
Having said that Yes Jedit integrates with CVS, yes it has code completion (depending on the language), and yes it integrates with various debuggers.
Finally IDEs have nothing to do with the scalibility of PHP.
"It's NOT lightweight if you are doing complex things. There's more to load than CPU utilization. What about number of connections that your application spawns or uses? What about the number of threads it executes? Do you even know these answers?"
I was doing complex things, as I said it was a very large and heavily used e-commerce site for a business with SOAP services, XML transforms, complex reporting etc. I was able to set how many connections it uses, how many applications it spaws all from either the apache configuration or PHP configuration. There was no threading, I was using apache1.3 with pre-forks. It worked like a charm and made millions of dollars a month.
"The point is these options exist and are written by professionals who probably know more about this stuff than you (just because you can't know more about everything than the experts in those fields.) I feel confident using software written by the Apache Group or the JBoss group... and you know what, I can write an entire database application without ANY SQL... and that's just great."
How does that make your application more scalable? I told you that my application scaled to 20 hits per second without breaking a sweat. I calculated that it could probably do 100 hits per second but we never even came close to that.
"Ah... so you don't know Java. Ok..."
I know java very well thank you.
"Because you can't implement an in-memory caching solution in PHP without something like the Zend Optimizer since PHP spawns independent threads for each access of a page. Hell, without paying money for things like Zend Optimzer/ZendCache, PHP has to COMPILE THE BYTECODE ON EVERY HIT. But unless you use something like PEAR cache, you ain't getting in memory caches with PHP."
Right, so what's your beef? You can get caching with PHP. Zend charges for theirs but there are free ones too. Hell I wrote one my self with a handful of code, it was easy!.
On the one hand you say PHP can't cache on the other hand you list products which enable PHP to cache. Where are you going with this?
This has got the most insane conversation I have ever had. How can you simultaniously claim that PHP is unable to cache and then list one free and one paid product that enable you to cache?
"No. That's just hiring someone who doesn't know shit about the language you're coding in. If you get an experienced java programmer that is used to a framework like Struts or Tapestry or JSF, they can easily output pages at a rate that is equal to or not faster than a professional PHP developer (I've done both professionally.) With PHP you are almost always starting from scratch (and rewriting (or cut and pasting) parameter validation code, authentication code/engines, connection pooling, etc)"
That's just a flat out lie. By the time you get your classpath figured out and your XML written the PHP application will be halfway to done. How? Just go visit the PEAR library and see for yourself.
"I don't mean an entire enterprise javabean application, i mean an application that uses the standard JDBC, and some messaging too."
That application will not be more scalable then PHP. The only time Java is more scalable then PHP is when you have to distribute your application server amongst multiple servers.
"To say that you don't "need an IDE" is great. I can use vi to code my stuff to. The point is, it is NICE to have. "
Right. ANd PHP has IDEs. Stop putting this strawman up. There are IDEs for PHP. I happen to use and like Jedit.
"And, as I said before, good luck profiling a PHP app. Need to know which method is taking up most of your execution time? For all you know, one xml transformation can be accounting for 60% of your execution time... can you find that out in PHP? Sure, you can put in lots of time printouts that print to the screen or console but its certainly not as efficient as something like Eclipse Profiler."
Somehow during my years of programming in PHP I never needed it. Maybe that's because the combination of PHP and Apache is so lightweight. As I said I was averaging less then two percent CPU utilization taking 2 to 20 hits per second.
"Notice how all the stuff that I mentioned so far is free? Zend is $300 per license (and that's not the all-incompassing package)"
So? How much does intelliJ or Jbuilder cost? I am glad you are now changing your argument though. you went from "there are no PHP IDEs" to "PHP IDEs cost more then eclipse" at least we are making progress.
"Additionally, yes there real packages to back up my statements. Nothing out for PHP is as powerful as Hibernate, or as AspectJ, or as the profiler above or as JMS, or etc, etc..."
Let's presume you are right. So? Does any of that make PHP less scalable and if so by how much? That's the real question. Somehow my company was able to make millions of dollars per month without those things on a PHP based web site. Go figure!
"You might have been more productive in PHP. How much more productive? 10%? 50%? 80%? Is it enough to compensate for the possibility that you must rewrite if your application grows dramatically?"
I already said I was 200 to 300% more productive in PHP. And yes it was worth the price. Why? because it ended up that PHP was perfectly suitable for our application. WE NEVER HAD TO REWRITE IT. The application never got so big that it needed java.
"Great, that's stupid. If the absolute limit for database connections is TWO, it should still not crash on the home page. My problem isn't the connection pooling, its the fact that a wasted database hit is being made for EVERY access to the home page"
How is that the fault of PHP?
"And trust me, I doubt ANY author would intend for their site to just "die." If that's how you intend to react to heavy load, you're just a bad author. That's isn't "premature optimization," it's obvious smart optimization."
Premature optimization is writing your application in J2EE because you hope one day the application will need to be the size of amazon.com and taking two years to develop something that could have been on the market in six months.
Slashdot Mirror
"Wow, when did KDE get a 3D XML based programming and presentation layer, that uses hardware acceleration without letting the OS have OpenGL take over?"
Dude. Until you get a 3D XML based programming and presentation layer that used hardware acceleration without openGL you SUCK!. Anybody who does not have a 3D XML based programming and presentation layer is going to DIE.
"I'm trying to figure out how you own anything, yet can't afford anything. "
Have you even been to a poor person's house? They have things in them. Things like clothes, furniture, toys for the kids, etc. Of course these things are old, cheap, and undesirable. You can't just put them up on ebay and make yourself a few hundred dollars. The idea that they could sell all of their stuff to buy a bus ticket is kind of a joke.
"I also beleive there is no reason for being poor beyond personal choice."
As I said, most republicans agree with you. That's why the govt took no action when the poor were dying in NO.
"So rather than spend billions of US tax dollars of rebuilding a poor city, we should (if we are going to spend it) educate the peope so that they do not need to live in such poor conditions."
I think it's a wonderful idea to educate people. Alas that's seen as a socialist idea and this govt is not in favor of it so much.
"I can't say about the rest of the world, but the US is not socialist, though there are a few psuedo socialist programs. "
Nonsense. The largest portion of the US budget is "discretionary spending" meaning social security, medicare, medicaid etc. A country which spends more money on social welfare programs then any other program is a socialist country by any definition of the word. Add to that the fact that US builds and maintains roads, railways and other infrastucture, provides free education for kids, provides subsidies for farming, ranching, mining, and virtually every other industry known to man, after school programs, parks and recreation, etc and you will see that more then 75% of the us budget is spend on socialist programs.
If you judge by the amount spent the US is the largest socialist state in the world, if you measure by percentage then we are not the largest but we are in the top 50.
"Other socialist ideals are equality, and inability for ownership of personal property, two things we do not have in the US. I'd like to get further into this but this is not the place."
Yes US is less socialist then other countries but it's still a very socialist country. SOcialism is the most succesful form of govt and indeed the only form of govt that really works. Countries which have shied away from socialism have all ended up are cespools.
"A PHP application by itself can not cache. There is a big difference between writing your application so that it can use an external program as its "cache" and having something that is implemented in the language and can be set transparently."
And yet the end result is that a PHP application can cache. Strange how that works out huh?
"Additionally, you have to make EXTERNAL calls to an application running as a seperate daemon/process on your system. Not only is there a performance penalty in doing that (a pretty hefty one too if you're using something older than PHP 5), but it also means you're dependent on an outside process."
You mean as opposed to RMI, JMI and other socket based protocols right?
"Except they can't cache across multiple servers/instances."
Right. I already said that the only time Java will scale larger then php is when you spread your application across multiple servers. Since PHP can already store session data on shared storage or a database that's the only point at which java is more scalable. Up to that point PHP is as fast if not faster then java.
"Because that question depends on millions of variables. There's a big difference between me saying "In some cases PHP does not scale" and you asking for a specific number"
So you were full of shit when you said PHP can't scale. What you meant to say is that the choice of platform is just one of a million different variables which may get in the way of the scalibility of your application.
"I'll tell you right now, as I said about 30 times before, if you're doing something like collating numerous (10,20+) datafeeds (external/internal) that are customized for thousands of users, you'd be a fool to do it in PHP."
Why? Is it because "php doesn't have an IDE" or is it because "PHP can't cache". I don't think I will take your opinion on this. So please do tell us why it's not possible for PHP to handle more then 20 datafeeds that are customized for thousands of users. Exactly what about PHP prevents you from cutomizing feeds?
"So yea... go away "pro." Come back when you educate yourself about BOTH technologies instead of obviously blindly arguing one."
You made the assertion that PHP applications don't scale. I am still waiting for you to tell me at which point PHP applications fall down. That way we can both agree that any point below that line PHP is just as good if not better then Java.
If i was a musician every song I wrote would be about freedom. That way all my songs would end up in commercials.
Why bother. It's going to be shoved down the throats of everybody who buys a PC anyway.
I don't know why they spend even one dollar on advertising really.
"ou need to use something NOT written in php. You have to use an application that has NOTHING to do with PHP (other than PHP can use it.)"
Right. A PHP application can cache. Thanks for admitting that you were wrong again.
"That is why I've been arguing about caching this whole time. You need to use the database smartly, not hit it everytime somebody accesses the home page just for their first name."
Right, and you have also admitted that PHP applications can cache.
"Obviously if you don't store the session in the db that's ok... where do you store it? Do you know? Do you actually know internally what php does for sessions that are not db backed? I'll let you look that one up, I'm sick of giving you real information everytime I respond."
Either on disk or in memory, depends on how you wrote the application. I stored my on disk which was fine because I was only running on one machine.
"I'm not answering because its a stupid question. "
Really? You started this whole thread by stating that PHP applications don't scale. Now you refuse to state how far up they can scale.
"And your java experience must be awesome considering you basically admitted to not even knowing how to set a classpath (your "I'd have half the application done by the time you've set your classpath and xml files" comment)"
Once again. By the time you set your classpath and written your XML descriptors a good PHP programmer would be halfway to done.
"Wouldn't you know it, Greyhounds ticketing system is not working when I want to prove the fair to travel within the state of LA (I'm just saying move above sea level) is less the $25. Not only that if the people were afraid to risk losing everything than they would have even more reason to get out of New Orleans."
Leaving takes much more then a bus ticket. Like I said most people can not afford to leave everything they own behind. The upper class can because they are insured, they live in neighborhoods that are less likely to suffer from looting and theft, and worst comes to worst they make enough money to get back all their belonging given enough time.
Poor people don't have any of those options.
'I, and many others, was not born privilaged, nor where I live now. I was born on the other side of the country, about as far apart as you can get. But rather than deal with the threat of huriccans, earthquakes, floods and other natural disasters I moved to some place safe. I feel for the kids who's parents are too stupid to get there kids out of a bad area, but I don't feel for the adults. But sorry to say, I can't get my way, and so those poor kids will probably be sent back to live with their unfit parents in a dangerous land that no mater how you look at it was not intended for human life. But hey I can look on the bright side and be thankful that they are rebuild, so next years issue of "Girls Gone Wild" will have it's share of seens out of Mardi Gras."
Again many republicans agree with you. Since the govt is being run by republicans it just makes sense that they simply looked at the problem as being self inflicted and one not worthy of govt intervention. Only when the rest of the country was outraged did the govt act to actually help those people.
Most likely in a more socialist country (all of the first world are socialist contries some more then others) people would not be allowed to live in those areas. More socialist countries tend to have the govt taking a more active role in environmental protection and designation of liveable areas. A less socialist country like the US let's people live wherever they want.
By the way congratulations. If you are a socialist they you must be proud that it is the only succesful form of govt. Every single country in the first world and vast majority of the second world countries are socialist. Only the most dismal and rotten third world countries have no socialist policies in place and as a result are a festering breeding grounds of crime, disease and terrorism.
On the other hand conservation saves you money, and is easier on the atmosphere of your community.
When you think of it the only people that conservation hurts are the oil companies. Why wouldn't you conserve, carpool, walk more, bike more, drive a smaller car, turn off your lights, watch less TV etc, wear a sweater indoors etc.
What is harm in any of that?
"WTF, who is so unfortunate they can't move? seriouslly it cost $25 to get on a bus to move to higher land. You could probably hitch it for free. And finding a job paying minimum wage is pretty easy to do anywhere in this country."
Most of the people who died were destitute, old, or sick.
You need more then $25.00 (although that's hard to come by for a lot of people), you also need to be able move and to you need to be able to risk losing everything you have. It's not like these people were insured or anything.
"In the end, until the US is a socialist country, or the government mandates where you live, you have the choice to move and the government should not be responsible if you chose to live in a high risk area (like some where that you look up too see ships!)."
Many people agree with you. I think that's the number one reason the govt waited so long to react, they simply didn't think it was the job of the govt to help dying people. After all this is one of the core values of the republican party. The idea that people should be left to fend for themselves.
"Fine... one decent commercial for pay IDE."
Nope look further. There are more then one.
Having said that I am glad you finally admitted you were wrong on that.
"If you are using PHP you need to use OTHER technology in addition to PHP to make caching work."
Most people run apache (written in C) and mod_jk (also written in C). Again though it doesn't matter. You have now admitted that your original assertion about caching was wrong. A PHP application does have the ability to cache.
"You don't see how that's a problem? That if you scale the actual web server boxes up, you can't really scale the Database?"
The scalibility of the database is always the arbiter of the scalibity of your application. That's true of any language. If your database can't scale then you might as well pack it in.
Having said that I was able to take 2 to 20 hits per second without storing my session in the database and without multiple web servers. One server, one database that's it.
"Face it, YOU personally believe PHP gives you better ROI."
Well yes, I have experience with both and that's my experience.
I am now going to ask you once again the question you refuse to answer.
How big can a PHP application scale up? That's the thread topic here.
DUDE!. MS Will KILL XUL. MS r0x0rs. Stop using firefox NOW!. If you are programming in xul U will die when xaml comes out!.
"By the way, if you hate ASP.NET you are going to loathe Avalon."
I have no plans to go anywhere near it. I was forced to use ASP.NET and VB.NET for a while and I quit after six months. Every day when I went to work I literally felt like sticking toothpics underneath my fingernails to mitigate the pain VB.net and ASP.NET were causing me. I would rather be shackled in a dungeon rather then go back to that house of horrors.
"There are IDEs for PHP. I like Jedit." Now maybe you didn't mean to imply that Jedit is an IDE, but it sure as hell sounded like it. (And JEdit's code complete is very basic... it can complete for loops, but it can't introspect packages for methods that are in the object [or maybe it now can, it couldn't a year ago"
First of all there was a reason I put a period between those two sentences. Once again (for the last time I hope). THERE ARE IDES FOR PHP. I use Jedit and used it for years for PHP development without ever once wishing I had something else.
"They do in terms of development'
There are IDEs for PHP.
"They do in terms of development. I wasn't arguing performance scability at that point, I was arguing reinventing the wheel everytime (validating code, parameter check code, database connection pooling code, insert sql statements for object code, caching code.)"
Wow. This is so stunningly weird I don't know what to say. None of that has anything to do with an IDE. None of it.
"Sorry... I assumed you knew what those products were. They're not parts of PHP (certainly memcached isn't... it's AN ENTIRELY SEPERATE DAEMON APPLICATION that can be used in ANY language.) They're other APPLICATIONS that you can use with PHP to store stuff in resident memory (since PHP can't DO THAT by itself without a bytecode compiler.) Your response is insane. It's like saying "Man, PHP can totally play Sam & Max because I can run SCUMMVM in Unix and Php runs in Unix too!""
Again weird. Jboss is a separate product, apache is a separate product, mod_jk is a separate product, hibernate is a separate product, eclipse is a separate product, resin is a separate product. What's your point again?
"It will certainly be more scalable than PHP without some bytecode optimizations or some inmemory cache products like memcached."
Bullshit.
OK, let's start from the beginning.
What is the upper limit of how large a PHP application can scale? I say a PHP application can easily handle 100 hits per second and can easily be divided to run on multiple web servers with session info stored in databases.
If you are writing an application that is going to handle 100 hits per second or less then use PHP. You will get a faster ROI from a PHP app.
"XAML" Microsoft for "XUL".
Instead of taking an open spec like XUl and joining it, bettering it, and implementing it they chose to go their own way. Nothing to see here, runalong now and leave the evil people to their own devices.
i will explain it to you. ASP.NET attempts to morph the web development paradigm into the desktop development paradigm and in doing so adds a horribly complicated and inelegant structure to the whole process.
Compare ASP.NET to webobjects, tapestry, Ruby on rails etc and you will be struck by their elegance, coherence and beauty. Compared to them ASP.NET is indeed a pile (to my eyes anyway).
ASP.NET is basically aimed at VB developers who are used to working with a certain paradigm.
Notice that I said nothing about visual studio. why are you blathering on about that?
Dude MS is making a flash killer. It's gonna KILL flash. Macromedia is as good as dead now. So nobody better buy macromedia products or use flash or nothing. MS is going to kill flash. I know because Ballmer threw a chair across the room! MS is going to kill macromedia right after they kill borland, novell, google, oracle, SAP, Sony, Nintendo, and AOL.
"I think anyone that's done commerce-quality network programming for a while can see the real "pile" in your opinion."
Mmmm. Are you saying there are no commerce quality network programs written in webobjects? Perhaps you should take a look at the itunes store.
"From my own experience, RoR scales horribly both traffic-wise and when attempting to incorporate existing infrastructres with it, i.e. the "plays well with others" factor."
I don't doubt that this is your opinion knowing that you are a ASP.NET fan. They are so vastly different I don't think you would like anything about it.
One of the first things I do when I install a linux box is to check the entire /etc directory into CVS. I can't even begin to tell you how many times that simple act saved my ass.
I find asp.net awkward and kludgy. They tried to make web development like desktop development and in the process made it into an overly complicated, ugly, ungraceful stinking pile of cow feces.
I much prefer webobjects or even ruby on rails. ASP.NET is a pile.
You can configure apache with perl. You can just type perl code into the config file too. Most people with complex apache sites do it with perl programs that are included from the apache config file.
If you want a lighter weight editor which is very customizable and extendable I would also reccomend Jedit. I am especially fond of the XML/XSL plugins but I have more then 10 plug ins loaded at this time. Jedit is the first thing I load on any computer anymore, it's a great all around tool.
"Repeat after me. JEdit is NOT an IDE. In fact, JEdit doesn't even refer to itself as an IDE (it calls itself a "programmer's text editor.") You either don't know what an IDE is or have never used one. It's a text editor with syntax highlighting. Does it do autocomplete? No. Does it do debugging/tracing? No. Does it have integration with CVS or other source code management software? No. (Let me guess, you don't need that either!) Do you know what an IDE is?
"
I never claimed that Jedit is an IDE for PHP. I simply said I used Jedit. There are IDEs for PHP though. More then one. Get that through your thick skull. Stop saying what you know is to be false. There are IDEs for PHP.
Having said that Yes Jedit integrates with CVS, yes it has code completion (depending on the language), and yes it integrates with various debuggers.
Finally IDEs have nothing to do with the scalibility of PHP.
"It's NOT lightweight if you are doing complex things. There's more to load than CPU utilization. What about number of connections that your application spawns or uses? What about the number of threads it executes? Do you even know these answers?"
I was doing complex things, as I said it was a very large and heavily used e-commerce site for a business with SOAP services, XML transforms, complex reporting etc. I was able to set how many connections it uses, how many applications it spaws all from either the apache configuration or PHP configuration. There was no threading, I was using apache1.3 with pre-forks. It worked like a charm and made millions of dollars a month.
"The point is these options exist and are written by professionals who probably know more about this stuff than you (just because you can't know more about everything than the experts in those fields.) I feel confident using software written by the Apache Group or the JBoss group... and you know what, I can write an entire database application without ANY SQL... and that's just great."
How does that make your application more scalable? I told you that my application scaled to 20 hits per second without breaking a sweat. I calculated that it could probably do 100 hits per second but we never even came close to that.
"Ah... so you don't know Java. Ok..."
I know java very well thank you.
"Because you can't implement an in-memory caching solution in PHP without something like the Zend Optimizer since PHP spawns independent threads for each access of a page. Hell, without paying money for things like Zend Optimzer/ZendCache, PHP has to COMPILE THE BYTECODE ON EVERY HIT. But unless you use something like PEAR cache, you ain't getting in memory caches with PHP."
Right, so what's your beef? You can get caching with PHP. Zend charges for theirs but there are free ones too. Hell I wrote one my self with a handful of code, it was easy!.
On the one hand you say PHP can't cache on the other hand you list products which enable PHP to cache. Where are you going with this?
This has got the most insane conversation I have ever had. How can you simultaniously claim that PHP is unable to cache and then list one free and one paid product that enable you to cache?
"No. That's just hiring someone who doesn't know shit about the language you're coding in. If you get an experienced java programmer that is used to a framework like Struts or Tapestry or JSF, they can easily output pages at a rate that is equal to or not faster than a professional PHP developer (I've done both professionally.) With PHP you are almost always starting from scratch (and rewriting (or cut and pasting) parameter validation code, authentication code/engines, connection pooling, etc)"
That's just a flat out lie. By the time you get your classpath figured out and your XML written the PHP application will be halfway to done. How? Just go visit the PEAR library and see for yourself.
"I don't mean an entire enterprise javabean application, i mean an application that uses the standard JDBC, and some messaging too."
That application will not be more scalable then PHP. The only time Java is more scalable then PHP is when you have to distribute your application server amongst multiple servers.
" Normally you have to release something before it can mature. OTherwise its called development..."
Maybe in a corporate environment. That's not the way it works in open source.
"To say that you don't "need an IDE" is great. I can use vi to code my stuff to. The point is, it is NICE to have. "
Right. ANd PHP has IDEs. Stop putting this strawman up. There are IDEs for PHP. I happen to use and like Jedit.
"And, as I said before, good luck profiling a PHP app. Need to know which method is taking up most of your execution time? For all you know, one xml transformation can be accounting for 60% of your execution time... can you find that out in PHP? Sure, you can put in lots of time printouts that print to the screen or console but its certainly not as efficient as something like Eclipse Profiler."
Somehow during my years of programming in PHP I never needed it. Maybe that's because the combination of PHP and Apache is so lightweight. As I said I was averaging less then two percent CPU utilization taking 2 to 20 hits per second.
"Notice how all the stuff that I mentioned so far is free? Zend is $300 per license (and that's not the all-incompassing package)"
So? How much does intelliJ or Jbuilder cost? I am glad you are now changing your argument though. you went from "there are no PHP IDEs" to "PHP IDEs cost more then eclipse" at least we are making progress.
"Additionally, yes there real packages to back up my statements. Nothing out for PHP is as powerful as Hibernate, or as AspectJ, or as the profiler above or as JMS, or etc, etc..."
Let's presume you are right. So? Does any of that make PHP less scalable and if so by how much? That's the real question. Somehow my company was able to make millions of dollars per month without those things on a PHP based web site. Go figure!
"You might have been more productive in PHP. How much more productive? 10%? 50%? 80%? Is it enough to compensate for the possibility that you must rewrite if your application grows dramatically?"
I already said I was 200 to 300% more productive in PHP. And yes it was worth the price. Why? because it ended up that PHP was perfectly suitable for our application. WE NEVER HAD TO REWRITE IT. The application never got so big that it needed java.
"Great, that's stupid. If the absolute limit for database connections is TWO, it should still not crash on the home page. My problem isn't the connection pooling, its the fact that a wasted database hit is being made for EVERY access to the home page"
How is that the fault of PHP?
"And trust me, I doubt ANY author would intend for their site to just "die." If that's how you intend to react to heavy load, you're just a bad author. That's isn't "premature optimization," it's obvious smart optimization."
Premature optimization is writing your application in J2EE because you hope one day the application will need to be the size of amazon.com and taking two years to develop something that could have been on the market in six months.