"In terms of how large can a PHP application scale? Is surviving a slashdotting a sufficient answer?"
No, we have seem java sites and.NET sited keel over on slashdotting too.
" it died because of a lack of connections since it was making lots of wasted database calls that aren't necessary."
I don't think that's right. In PHP you get to set an absolute limit and once that limit is reached then it stops. You can not presume the database pooling was misconfigured, it probably worked just like the author intended.
"The programmer productivity hit of using Java in a real IDE for something substantial isn't as big as you might think. "
Having done both I don't think I KNOW. I was at least two to three times more productive with PHP.
'Java just seems to have more of these that can scale well than PHP."
That's just your opinion, you have no read data to back that up. Oh also since PHP can call java classes all of those are available to PHP as well.
"Java just seems to have more of these that can scale well than PHP."
This is just misinformation. There is the zend IDE as well as few other PHP IDEs which let you debug your code line by line. Having said that I programmed for four years in PHP using Jedit and never once wished I had a better IDE. I built and maintained a very busy commerce site which made millions of dollars per month and worked like a charm on single low end dell server. I won't say it was as busy as ebay or anything but it was able to take two to 20 hits per second with only 1 or 2 percent CPU utilization and ran comfortably on 512 megs of ram (freebsd).
"Of course, you should always imagine the stuff you build will become as big as ebay or amazon!:)"
Perfect is the enemy of good. That's premature optimization.
"The upgrade cost to Vista, for most companies, is effectively $0 because it comes with new PCs."
Most companies have select licenses which means they pay for each copy of windows used no matter where it came from. In fact if it came with your PC then you pay for it twice, once when you buy the PC and once under your select license. There are exceptions to this for large companies like dell who won't charge you for your copy of windows and office but will charge your select license instead (so you only pay once).
As for the rest I don't think it's that crucial. i don't know too many corporations running their business on quickbooks, versacheck, photoshop and dreamweaver. That small minority of corporations probably can't switch until those companies decide to port their software over. Vendor lock sucks I guess but what can you do about it?
"THERE SHOULD BE ONLY ONE APPLICATION FOR EVERY TASK! "
Right, just like windows!. You should be able to use notepad, wordpad, microsoft word, and microfot publisher.
THERE SHOULD ONLY BE FOUR APPLICATIONS FOR EVERY TASK.
See because MS includes four applications to write a note (not countring outlook) nobody uses it. Windows will never take over the desktop until there is only one application for each task.
"The problem with most PHP applications is that they don't scale. "
I would like to know what you mean by "scale". Even if we stipulate everything you say as being true are they really that important in order to scale your application? Is ORM mandatory for large scale application? Certainly MS does not think so because they don't reccomend ORM for.NET applications.
Let me rephrase the question. How large can a PHP application scale? Presuming savvy programmers how much load can a PHP application take before it keels over and you have to use Java.
I think that's a very important question because if you don't expect your application to scale up to the level of ebay or amazon.com it might not be worth the programmer productivity hit you are going to get from java.
If I ask for a more humble us policy I am committing sedition. If I disagree with US policy I am bashing the US. If I point out that the leaders made horrible calculation and mistakes and lead to misery and death all over the world I am not "injecting contextual backing". And finally it's important to take your big dick out act like a man and kill lots of people otherwise the bad people will get you.
Typical republitard thinking.
Answer me this. How come nobody commits terrorists attacks against the canadians, swedes or new zealanders? How come their embassies don't get taken over? Could be because nobody has a bone to pick with them? Could be that they are by and large nice people who help rather then pricks who mess with internal affairs of other countries and take control over their natural resources?
Nah, it couln't be that. You see the terrorists hate us because we are free, not because we actually have ever done anything bad to anybody. No sir, not us, we are the good guys (and we have huge dicks too!).
"At some point, some major terrorist attack on the US was going to succeed, and the sitting president would have the choice of being either The Great War Leader Fighting to Preserve the American Way of Life,"
So it's just a coinky dink that the run up to the war happened just as an election was happening and the cheney said that if you don't vote for them the US will suffer from a nuklear attack.
"I'm sure killing millions (by bombing N. Korea and the subsequent leveling of Seoul in return) would give a big bump in the polls."
DO you have even one iota of doubt that setting off nukes in north korea would get a republican elected? Americans love war, we love to kill. We love it so much we can't seem to go more then five or six years without unleashing bombs on some poor fuckers or another.
The uss cole was a military target. That's legitemate when you are fighting a war.
"At some point, some major terrorist attack on the US was going to succeed, and the sitting president would have the choice of being either The Great War Leader Fighting to Preserve the American Way of Life,"
Sigh.. Only if we had a president that actually did defend the american way of life rather then flush democracy down the drain.
North Korea has no intention of attacking the US even if they could. Bush wants to nuke north korea just in case the republicans are down in the polls. 9/11 was the best thing to ever happen to Bush and he knows it. He is the war president, without a war he is just an incompetent, incoherent, religous fundamentalist fool.
Just yesterday the federal court ruled that the US had the right to hold Jose Padilla (a US citizen) in custody without charges or a trial for ever and ever. We are not even allowed to know where he is being kept or even if he is still alive.
The president of the US now has to power to utter the name of any US citizen in anger and have that person disappear forever. That's all it takes people, one word from the president.
Yes but why would anybody want to hurt the US? We are such nice people. We don't ever bother anybody and we are such concerned and helpful world citizens!.
Nukes are old skool. The real problem is that billions of people all over the world want to see us suffer and die. You can't just keep making more enemies every day and not expect any consequences. Those billions of people who want to see you die will figure out a way to kill you or spend you into bankrupcy trying to defend yourself.
Unfortunately nobody in the good old U S of A has any interest in making nice with people. We are intent on making ourselves as obnoxious and dangerous as possible. Sooner or later it's going to bite us in the ass.
There is a reason US was attacked instead of Canada but nobody wants to think about that.
Notice that the french are declaring that they will use nukes in retaliation or self defense. Bush wants to use nukes in a first strike fashion.
This is really just a logical extention of his pre-emptive war doctrine. He simply reserves the right to attack anybody whenever he wants, for whatever reason he wants, using whatever weapons he wants.
Don't worry. MS is entering the CRM business. That's what this is all about. MS will introduce a product, integrate it with outlook, and make sure outlook does not work with anything else on the market.
Oracle is hoping that by buying peoplesoft and seiebel they can prevent MS from locking people out of outlook. Peoplesoft+siebel+oracle represents a large chunk of businesses that MS can't afford to alienate.
MS tried to buy SAP a while ago and it didn't go, my guess is that MS will kill SAP outright but oracle will be able to survive MS shoving their CRM down the throats of windows users.
Why would you run apache on windows? Why would you put windows on any server at all, especially if it's going to be exposed to the world?
Like I said, install windows on the users desktops where it belongs. WIndows does not belong in your server room. There are much better operating systems then that.
It's MS that throws roadblocks on interoperability not the the other way around.
I agree that not having a monoculture is troublesome but only if you throw windows into the mix. MS tries it's best to lock the client into their solutions so they make it very hard to have any software other then MS in any network.
If you are going to choose a monoculture then go with unix, just don't let any windows box anywhere near your server room. Keep the windows boxes in the desktops of the users where it belongs.
Is bad management 100% of the problem? I think even the biggest MS astro turfer has to admit that integrating windows with non microsoft platforms can be a huge headache.
Here is the license you need to agree just to read the spec. Imagine what you need to sign to implement it.
wake me up when MS thows away DRM and immunizes people against their own patent portfolio.
-------------Begin License---------------
Microsoft Corporation Technical Documentation License Agreement for the specification code named "Metro"
READ THIS! THIS IS A LEGAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN MICROSOFT CORPORATION ("MICROSOFT") AND THE RECIPIENT OF THE ABOVE REFERENCED MATERIALS, WHETHER AN INDIVIDUAL OR AN ENTITY ("YOU"). IF YOU HAVE ACCESSED THIS AGREEMENT IN THE PROCESS OF DOWNLOADING THESE MATERIALS ("MATERIALS") FROM A MICROSOFT WEB SITE, BY CLICKING "I ACCEPT", DOWNLOADING, USING OR PROVIDING FEEDBACK ON THE MATERIALS, YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS ATTACHED TO MATERIALS, BY ACCESSING, USING OR PROVIDING FEEDBACK ON THE ATTACHED MATERIALS, YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS, YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO ACCESS, DOWNLOAD, USE OR REVIEW THE MATERIALS.
For good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are acknowledged, You and Microsoft agree as follows:
1. You may review these Materials only (a) as a reference to assist You in planning and designing Your product, service or technology ("Product") to interface with a Microsoft product, specification, service or technology ("Microsoft Product") as described in these Materials; and (b) to provide feedback on these Materials to Microsoft. All other rights are retained by Microsoft; this Agreement does not give You rights under any Microsoft patents. You may not (i) duplicate any part of these Materials, (ii) remove this Agreement or any notices from these Materials, or (iii) give any part of these Materials, or assign or otherwise provide Your rights under this Agreement, to anyone else.
2. These Materials may contain preliminary information or inaccuracies, and may not correctly represent any associated Microsoft Product as commercially released. All Materials are provided entirely "AS IS." To the extent permitted by law, MICROSOFT MAKES NO WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, DISCLAIMS ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED AND STATUTORY WARRANTIES, AND ASSUMES NO LIABILITY TO YOU FOR ANY DAMAGES OF ANY TYPE IN CONNECTION WITH THESE MATERIALS OR ANY INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IN THEM.
3. If You are an entity and (a) merge into another entity or (b) a controlling ownership interest in You changes, Your right to use these Materials automatically terminates and You must destroy them.
4. You have no obligation to give Microsoft any suggestions, comments or other feedback ("Feedback") relating to these Materials. However, any Feedback you voluntarily provide may be used in Microsoft Products and related specifications or other documentation (collectively, "Microsoft Offerings") which in turn may be relied upon by other third parties to develop their own products, services or technology ("Third Party Products"). Accordingly, if You do give Microsoft Feedback on any version of these Materials or the Microsoft Offerings to which they apply, You agree: (a) Microsoft may freely use, reproduce, license, distribute, and otherwise commercialize Your Feedback in any Microsoft Offering; (b) You also grant third parties, without charge, only those patent rights necessary to enable Third Party Products to use, implement or interface with any specific parts of a Microsoft Product that incorporate Your Feedback; and (c) You will not give Microsoft any Feedback (i) that You have reason to believe is subject to any patent, copyright or other intellectual property claim or right of any third party; or (ii) subject to license terms which seek to require any Microsoft Offering incorporating or derived from such Feedback, or other Microsoft intellectual property, to be licensed to or otherwise shared with any third party.
5. Microsoft has no obligation to maintain the confidentiality of any Microsoft Offering, or the confidentiality of Your Feedback, including Your identity as the source of such Feedback
So let me get this straight. Your entire argument can be summed up as....
"is not!".
I am sure that works great in the Rush Limbaugh amen corner at your local diner but I am afraid you will need better arguments here where people know how to read and have access to information that does not originate from Fox News or talk radio.
Slashdot Mirror
"In terms of how large can a PHP application scale? Is surviving a slashdotting a sufficient answer?"
.NET sited keel over on slashdotting too.
:)"
No, we have seem java sites and
" it died because of a lack of connections since it was making lots of wasted database calls that aren't necessary."
I don't think that's right. In PHP you get to set an absolute limit and once that limit is reached then it stops. You can not presume the database pooling was misconfigured, it probably worked just like the author intended.
"The programmer productivity hit of using Java in a real IDE for something substantial isn't as big as you might think. "
Having done both I don't think I KNOW. I was at least two to three times more productive with PHP.
'Java just seems to have more of these that can scale well than PHP."
That's just your opinion, you have no read data to back that up. Oh also since PHP can call java classes all of those are available to PHP as well.
"Java just seems to have more of these that can scale well than PHP."
This is just misinformation. There is the zend IDE as well as few other PHP IDEs which let you debug your code line by line. Having said that I programmed for four years in PHP using Jedit and never once wished I had a better IDE. I built and maintained a very busy commerce site which made millions of dollars per month and worked like a charm on single low end dell server. I won't say it was as busy as ebay or anything but it was able to take two to 20 hits per second with only 1 or 2 percent CPU utilization and ran comfortably on 512 megs of ram (freebsd).
"Of course, you should always imagine the stuff you build will become as big as ebay or amazon!
Perfect is the enemy of good. That's premature optimization.
"The upgrade cost to Vista, for most companies, is effectively $0 because it comes with new PCs."
Most companies have select licenses which means they pay for each copy of windows used no matter where it came from. In fact if it came with your PC then you pay for it twice, once when you buy the PC and once under your select license. There are exceptions to this for large companies like dell who won't charge you for your copy of windows and office but will charge your select license instead (so you only pay once).
As for the rest I don't think it's that crucial. i don't know too many corporations running their business on quickbooks, versacheck, photoshop and dreamweaver. That small minority of corporations probably can't switch until those companies decide to port their software over. Vendor lock sucks I guess but what can you do about it?
"THERE SHOULD BE ONLY ONE APPLICATION FOR EVERY TASK! "
Right, just like windows!. You should be able to use notepad, wordpad, microsoft word, and microfot publisher.
THERE SHOULD ONLY BE FOUR APPLICATIONS FOR EVERY TASK.
See because MS includes four applications to write a note (not countring outlook) nobody uses it. Windows will never take over the desktop until there is only one application for each task.
"The problem with most PHP applications is that they don't scale. "
.NET applications.
I would like to know what you mean by "scale". Even if we stipulate everything you say as being true are they really that important in order to scale your application? Is ORM mandatory for large scale application? Certainly MS does not think so because they don't reccomend ORM for
Let me rephrase the question. How large can a PHP application scale? Presuming savvy programmers how much load can a PHP application take before it keels over and you have to use Java.
I think that's a very important question because if you don't expect your application to scale up to the level of ebay or amazon.com it might not be worth the programmer productivity hit you are going to get from java.
WOW that's amazing.
If I ask for a more humble us policy I am committing sedition. If I disagree with US policy I am bashing the US. If I point out that the leaders made horrible calculation and mistakes and lead to misery and death all over the world I am not "injecting contextual backing". And finally it's important to take your big dick out act like a man and kill lots of people otherwise the bad people will get you.
Typical republitard thinking.
Answer me this. How come nobody commits terrorists attacks against the canadians, swedes or new zealanders? How come their embassies don't get taken over? Could be because nobody has a bone to pick with them? Could be that they are by and large nice people who help rather then pricks who mess with internal affairs of other countries and take control over their natural resources?
Nah, it couln't be that. You see the terrorists hate us because we are free, not because we actually have ever done anything bad to anybody. No sir, not us, we are the good guys (and we have huge dicks too!).
Notice I said "billions of people all over the world" Not "billions of people in one country".
But hey don't let that get in the way of you burying your head in the sand.
"At some point, some major terrorist attack on the US was going to succeed, and the sitting president would have the choice of being either The Great War Leader Fighting to Preserve the American Way of Life,"
So it's just a coinky dink that the run up to the war happened just as an election was happening and the cheney said that if you don't vote for them the US will suffer from a nuklear attack.
"I'm sure killing millions (by bombing N. Korea and the subsequent leveling of Seoul in return) would give a big bump in the polls."
DO you have even one iota of doubt that setting off nukes in north korea would get a republican elected? Americans love war, we love to kill. We love it so much we can't seem to go more then five or six years without unleashing bombs on some poor fuckers or another.
" Have you forgotten the USS Cole?"
The uss cole was a military target. That's legitemate when you are fighting a war.
"At some point, some major terrorist attack on the US was going to succeed, and the sitting president would have the choice of being either The Great War Leader Fighting to Preserve the American Way of Life,"
Sigh.. Only if we had a president that actually did defend the american way of life rather then flush democracy down the drain.
"Then how do YOU know what's going on?"
How do I know that the president has the power to lock people up forever without charges or a trial? THe federal court said so.
"Oh right you're making shit up."
Am I making up the fact that the president has the right to make people disappear without a trial or charges?
North Korea has no intention of attacking the US even if they could. Bush wants to nuke north korea just in case the republicans are down in the polls. 9/11 was the best thing to ever happen to Bush and he knows it. He is the war president, without a war he is just an incompetent, incoherent, religous fundamentalist fool.
What did the terrorist take? Did they steal something? Were they motivated by greed?
The terrorists were all middle class well educated arabs. They all lived pretty nice lives in their cells in Germany, Italy and elsewhere in Europe.
Just yesterday the federal court ruled that the US had the right to hold Jose Padilla (a US citizen) in custody without charges or a trial for ever and ever. We are not even allowed to know where he is being kept or even if he is still alive.
The president of the US now has to power to utter the name of any US citizen in anger and have that person disappear forever. That's all it takes people, one word from the president.
Yes but why would anybody want to hurt the US? We are such nice people. We don't ever bother anybody and we are such concerned and helpful world citizens!.
Nukes are old skool. The real problem is that billions of people all over the world want to see us suffer and die. You can't just keep making more enemies every day and not expect any consequences. Those billions of people who want to see you die will figure out a way to kill you or spend you into bankrupcy trying to defend yourself.
Unfortunately nobody in the good old U S of A has any interest in making nice with people. We are intent on making ourselves as obnoxious and dangerous as possible. Sooner or later it's going to bite us in the ass.
There is a reason US was attacked instead of Canada but nobody wants to think about that.
Notice that the french are declaring that they will use nukes in retaliation or self defense. Bush wants to use nukes in a first strike fashion.
This is really just a logical extention of his pre-emptive war doctrine. He simply reserves the right to attack anybody whenever he wants, for whatever reason he wants, using whatever weapons he wants.
"Microsoft *is* moving to an open format. That it is not as patent-free as you would like doesn't change that."
I can prove you to be liar with a very simple test.
1) Install office 2003.
2) Try to open up C:\Program Files\Microsoft Office\OFFICE11\1033\protplv.ppt in open office.
Voila! You are liar!.
"The fact is that choosing ANY file type narrows the field somewhat and whatever type is selected will give preference to someone."
Why? What is preventing MS from being able to read and write OO docs in Office?
I don't see how you can make the assertion that it will give preference to someone when anybody can implent the document spec.
Better yet why buy it when there are more and more SIP based services every day.
SIP is the future not some proprietary skype protocol.
Don't worry. MS is entering the CRM business. That's what this is all about. MS will introduce a product, integrate it with outlook, and make sure outlook does not work with anything else on the market.
Oracle is hoping that by buying peoplesoft and seiebel they can prevent MS from locking people out of outlook. Peoplesoft+siebel+oracle represents a large chunk of businesses that MS can't afford to alienate.
MS tried to buy SAP a while ago and it didn't go, my guess is that MS will kill SAP outright but oracle will be able to survive MS shoving their CRM down the throats of windows users.
Why would you run apache on windows? Why would you put windows on any server at all, especially if it's going to be exposed to the world?
Like I said, install windows on the users desktops where it belongs. WIndows does not belong in your server room. There are much better operating systems then that.
It's MS that throws roadblocks on interoperability not the the other way around.
I agree that not having a monoculture is troublesome but only if you throw windows into the mix. MS tries it's best to lock the client into their solutions so they make it very hard to have any software other then MS in any network.
If you are going to choose a monoculture then go with unix, just don't let any windows box anywhere near your server room. Keep the windows boxes in the desktops of the users where it belongs.
Is bad management 100% of the problem? I think even the biggest MS astro turfer has to admit that integrating windows with non microsoft platforms can be a huge headache.
You got it down my friend. That's right out of the MS astro turfing school.
You could have thrown in the old "I am no MS fan but..." thing but really that's just a nitpick.
Here is the license you need to agree just to read the spec. Imagine what you need to sign to implement it.
wake me up when MS thows away DRM and immunizes people against their own patent portfolio.
-------------Begin License---------------
Microsoft Corporation Technical Documentation License Agreement for the specification code named "Metro"
READ THIS! THIS IS A LEGAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN MICROSOFT CORPORATION ("MICROSOFT") AND THE RECIPIENT OF THE ABOVE REFERENCED MATERIALS, WHETHER AN INDIVIDUAL OR AN ENTITY ("YOU"). IF YOU HAVE ACCESSED THIS AGREEMENT IN THE PROCESS OF DOWNLOADING THESE MATERIALS ("MATERIALS") FROM A MICROSOFT WEB SITE, BY CLICKING "I ACCEPT", DOWNLOADING, USING OR PROVIDING FEEDBACK ON THE MATERIALS, YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS. IF THIS AGREEMENT IS ATTACHED TO MATERIALS, BY ACCESSING, USING OR PROVIDING FEEDBACK ON THE ATTACHED MATERIALS, YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS, YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO ACCESS, DOWNLOAD, USE OR REVIEW THE MATERIALS.
For good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are acknowledged, You and Microsoft agree as follows:
1. You may review these Materials only (a) as a reference to assist You in planning and designing Your product, service or technology ("Product") to interface with a Microsoft product, specification, service or technology ("Microsoft Product") as described in these Materials; and (b) to provide feedback on these Materials to Microsoft. All other rights are retained by Microsoft; this Agreement does not give You rights under any Microsoft patents. You may not (i) duplicate any part of these Materials, (ii) remove this Agreement or any notices from these Materials, or (iii) give any part of these Materials, or assign or otherwise provide Your rights under this Agreement, to anyone else.
2. These Materials may contain preliminary information or inaccuracies, and may not correctly represent any associated Microsoft Product as commercially released. All Materials are provided entirely "AS IS." To the extent permitted by law, MICROSOFT MAKES NO WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, DISCLAIMS ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED AND STATUTORY WARRANTIES, AND ASSUMES NO LIABILITY TO YOU FOR ANY DAMAGES OF ANY TYPE IN CONNECTION WITH THESE MATERIALS OR ANY INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IN THEM.
3. If You are an entity and (a) merge into another entity or (b) a controlling ownership interest in You changes, Your right to use these Materials automatically terminates and You must destroy them.
4. You have no obligation to give Microsoft any suggestions, comments or other feedback ("Feedback") relating to these Materials. However, any Feedback you voluntarily provide may be used in Microsoft Products and related specifications or other documentation (collectively, "Microsoft Offerings") which in turn may be relied upon by other third parties to develop their own products, services or technology ("Third Party Products"). Accordingly, if You do give Microsoft Feedback on any version of these Materials or the Microsoft Offerings to which they apply, You agree: (a) Microsoft may freely use, reproduce, license, distribute, and otherwise commercialize Your Feedback in any Microsoft Offering; (b) You also grant third parties, without charge, only those patent rights necessary to enable Third Party Products to use, implement or interface with any specific parts of a Microsoft Product that incorporate Your Feedback; and (c) You will not give Microsoft any Feedback (i) that You have reason to believe is subject to any patent, copyright or other intellectual property claim or right of any third party; or (ii) subject to license terms which seek to require any Microsoft Offering incorporating or derived from such Feedback, or other Microsoft intellectual property, to be licensed to or otherwise shared with any third party.
5. Microsoft has no obligation to maintain the confidentiality of any Microsoft Offering, or the confidentiality of Your Feedback, including Your identity as the source of such Feedback
So let me get this straight. Your entire argument can be summed up as....
"is not!".
I am sure that works great in the Rush Limbaugh amen corner at your local diner but I am afraid you will need better arguments here where people know how to read and have access to information that does not originate from Fox News or talk radio.
I tried to open up the powerpoint files that come with office 2003 in open office. I could not because they are protected by DRM.
I am afraid the only conclusion I can arrive from that is that you are a typical lying MS shill.