You need to learn how to read. I said that what clinton did was not perjury so therefore he did not commit a felony. I never said that perjury itself is not a felony.
Clinton was never charged with a felony. If he committed a felony he would have been charged. Since he was never charged with a felony he should not have been impeached. The impeachment was illegal and it turned out to very bad for the country and very good for osama bin laden.
Of course Bill Clinton should never been grilled about which hole his cock went into too. What kind a sick perverted fuck asks a question like that?
"According to this [cnn.com] CNN report, "The Arkansas Supreme Court's Committee on Professional Conduct initially called for Clinton's disbarment last year, saying he lied about his affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky.""
Nope Still not perjury try again.
"This is not simple "misleading" or "evasive" testimony. They recommended it because they said that he lied."
Nope still not perjury. Perjury is a crime. In order for somebody to be guilty of a crime they have to charged, tried, and found guilty. None of those things happened.
"If you continue reading in that last article, you will find that Clinton agreed to a settlement that involved him admitting to something less than perjury, but it's wholly disingenuous on your part to even fantasize that the real question was anything different. The fact that he was allowed to resort to legalese weasel words to avoid actually admitting the fact that he committed perjury doesn't change the reality that Clinton lied under oath."
As you said. NOT PERJURY.
"You also claim that perjury is not a felony."
I never said that. I simply told you truth (which you refuse to accept) that clinton was never charged with perjury, tried for perjury or found guilty of perjury.
"The man was guilty. Just admit it, and move along."
Guilty of what? Did I miss the trial? What was he charged with? What was the jury verdict?
Guilty implies there were charges and a trial. None of that happened. He was disbarred which is an administrative punishment NOT A CRIMINAL VERDICT.
NO HE WAS NOT. It was something like "not being 100% forthcoming" or "being evasive". It was not for perjury.
It is not a felony. He was never charged with a felony. He was never tried for a felony. He was never convicted of a felony.
Just because a right wing whacko freeper says it's a felony that does not make it one.
I still say you have to get over your obsession about Bill Clintons cock. You guys had no business asking which pussy his cock went into or whose mouth his cock entered into.
Here is an article from the christian science monitor you should read before going on about the sarin. here here is another one.
In a nutshell. Nobody knows if it's really sarin yet. There is considerable disagreement about how old the shell is. The weapons experts are saying that the sarin produced in the 80s (the supposed age of the shell) would have degraded by now.
Neither Kay, blix, bush, cheney, or rumsfeld claim that it's part of any arsenal.
I did some digging. He did mention once or twice in a wink-wink nudge-nudge way that he was doing it for humanitarian reasons. Nobody took him seriously though and for good reason because he didn't really believe it himself.
If he really wanted freedom for the Iraqis why did he wait till after 9/11? He said over and over again that there were ties between osama and saddam, that saddam had WMDs, that saddam was close to having nuclear weapons. All those were lies.
"Oh please. Describe for us then exactly what it was that induced the supreme court of Clinton's home state to recommend his disbarment if it wasn't for perjury."
Get it through you rthick skull. It was not perjury. He was never tried for perjury. He was never found guilty of perjury. The disbarment was a civil proceeding not a criminal one.
" Arguably the bar must be higher for people in such positions of responsibility."
No the law must treat everybody equally. A simple point which you don't seem to understand.
"You have a perverse notion of "civilized", if it doesn't include even a basic commitment to standards of truthfulness, decency, and marital fidelity (another form of truthfulness)."
Somewhere in that list is asking people about their cock don't you think? BTW if marital fidelity and truthfulness were criterea for being lawyers and politicians there would be none left.
"Perjury and suborning perjury are felonies. "
It was not perjury. He was never charged with perjury. He was never tried for perjury. He was never convicted of perjury.
"Nice evasion, but I'll bite. In the first place, I happen to agree that because Congress did not declare war, Bush's war in Iraq is unconstitutiional"
No just unconstitutional but against all forms of international law, human decency, common sense and rationality. He waged war for fun and profit.
"Assuming for the moment both that Bush knew what he was saying was untrue and that he deliberately misled the UN"
If he didn't know he should have. But then again he is pretty dumb and got played by the iranians pretty good.
"I still don't care, because the UN has not a scintilla of legal or judicial authority in this country."
He also lied in the state of union in front of congress and all the people of the united states. Of course he has lied a lot to the american people and is careful not to have any of statements under oath available to the public. When he testified before the 9/11 commision he made sure his chaperone (cheney) was there and cheney made sure none of it would be recorded.
"it'll take a lot more than your word for me to believe anything."
History will show. All the mountain of documents that Bush is keeping secret will eventually come out. The truly evil nature of this administration will eventually come to light. Clinton may have been a playboy and liked to fuck but Bush likes to kill and torture people. Maybe that's the way he gets his erections who knows.
He was never tried for nor found guilty of perjury. Lying about your cock and which pussy you stuck your cock into in a deposition is pretty minor crime. Most people would be fined and that would be end of that.
The republicans were obsessed with Bill Clintons cock for a long time so when they had the opportunity they asked him about shape, size and the wehereabouts of his cock.
In a civilized society the question would not be asked in the first place.
Of course none of this is an impeachable ofense (hence the "silly" impeachment). Bush should be impeached for waging an illegal war and lying to the UN which are true high crimes IMHO.
History shows that the impeachment distracted the president enough for al quada to plan and execute attacks against the US. When Clinton hit back he was attacked by the republicans of wagging the dog. Rush limbaugh called him a murderer for example. Osama pwoned the US. He knew the republicans would attack clinton if clinton attacked osama. He took advantage of the situation.
The republicans got to publish detailed information about bill clintons cock on the internet but the US suffered on 9/11. I guess you take whatever victories you can get huh?
"You should do yours. The questioning was part of the case, to establish whether a pattern of such behavior existed. Clinton's lies weakened the case against him."
Pattern of what behavior? Consensual sex? Jones claimed that Clinton dropped his pants and asked for sex. She said no, He said OK and left. In what way was getting a blowjob from an intern relevant. The question was asked in order to trap clinton and it worked. If he admitted it then he would be smeared if the denied it then he would be smeared. It was a brilliant move by the republicans. In the end of course it did not work. Clinton got re-elected. In fact in the end it may have caused tremendeous harm to this country by distracting the white house with a silly impeachment process when Al-quada was gearing up to strike.
In either case Paula Jones was not denied her day in court. There is no way you can manke that claim.
I guess you should break out the links then. Before the war it was all about fighting terrorism, convincing the american people that saddam helped al quada, and how saddam was going to nuke the US. All of those were lies.
If they really cared about the iraqis they would have lifted the sanctions.
The sarin was probably brought into the country by Al quada to fight the US occupation. It's a well known fact they are actively pusuing chemical weapons.
If you are in boston and you vote for bush you might as well stay home. You are just wasting you vote anyway.
"If Bill Clinton had been doing something on his watch BESIDES getting a blowjob, the war and half trillion dollars would not have been necessary. 9/11 might not have happened."
Maybe the whole impeachment thing did turn out to be a distraction huh? I mean if he had a blow job it probably distracted him for like 10 minutes but the impeachment that's another story isn't it?
I also think that 9/11 would have been averted if bush hadn't told the palestenians to go fuck themselves but that's another story altogether. Bill Clinton was actually not hated by the arabs who felt that he at least tried to be fair with them.
"George Bush is one of the worst public speakers I've ever seen (for a President)."
My dog can speak better then him.
" But at least he's doing something."
Doing awful and wrong things is not better then doing nothing. He has fucked up this thing beyond all belief. All he can say now is. "I know it sucks, it's going to suck for a long time, don't look for things to get any better soon". I'd rather he did nothing.
"He's not stupid, much as a lot of you would like to make him out to be."
Oh yes he is. He got duped by the iranian intelligence. How much stupider do you have to be?
"You don't get to be President by being stupid."
Sure you, if your daddy was the president and the republican party backed you up and the corporations give you 200 million dollars.
'That will virutally guarantee that radical fundamentalist Islam does the same thing in Iraq that it did to Iran."
Saddam Hussein was a secular socialist you dumbfuck. He was hated by all religous fundamentalists. Osama referred to him as "the communist". Before the war did you ever see a picture of him in fundamentalist garb? Did you ever see a picture of him praying? Did you ever see him with a beard that all muslim fundamentalists wear? We deposed a secular socialist leader. Before the war Iraqi women were the most educated and highest paid women of all arab kingdoms.
"You figure out the consequences to the stability of our world if a major piece of the energy supply is suddenly controlled by a culture who would just as soon (and actively tries to) kill you as look at you. "
Saddam Hussein never attacked america. He had nothing to do with 9/11. He had no intention of ever attacking america. He was no threat to america even if he wanted to attack us.
"I would vote libertarian or someone independent, but a vote for anyone else is a vote for Kerry, and I can stand that less than I can Bush. OK"
Please don't vote until you do more research. You are woefully uninformed.
"Bill Clinton lied under oath in his testimony when charged with sexual harassment, denying the accuser her day in court."
The accuser was not denied her day in court. He lied when he was being asked about having sex with somebody else not the accuser. You should do some basic research before posting.
"The issue was always about whether he used his office as governor to engage in a pattern of illegal sexual harassment of NON-consenting partners,"
"Lied? Or believed the reports of the intelligence community that Sadam had NOT destroyed his weapons and was making more"
He was duped by Ahmed Chalabi who was working for the iranian intelligence. He got pwoned by the inranians. He did their bidding by getting rid of saddam hussein.
It was very easy to do because all you had to do was to tell GW anything that he already believed. If you told him Saddam Hussein ate babies for lunch he would have taken that the truth because he already believed it. It's a great way to haxor anybody of limited intelligence who does not read or keep up on current events. Just present him with lies that he is likely to believe and he won't question you.
"The world is now on notice that if knock the chip off the shoulder of the USA you just MIGHT find it accepts the challenge and you get pounded into the ground."
Who did we pound into the ground and why? It was osama who attacked us and iraq got pounded into the ground. This tells the world that they should strike at the US wnever possible because we are unable to keep focus on our enemies and attack random targets who have oil instead.
"And that if its troops screw up and start oppressing those under they control, the US will ADMIT it, INVESTIGATE it, REMOVE them from their posts and TRY them for crimes."
That's just a joke. First of all only 6 people will get tried even though the use of torture and rape of prisoners was widespread in cuba, afghanistan, kuwait and iraq. Secondly the punishment is a joke. One guy just got the maximum punishment which was a year in prison. A year for raping somebody. Is that punishment? Will anybody be tried for murder in the case of the 9 people who died in US prisons. Will they also get a year in prison for beating a guy to death? Who will go to jail for dripping 500 pound bombs into a crowded city like falujah and will they be tried ourside the mass grave that sits in what used to be a soccer field?
"I wish that were true. It would be a MAJOR improvement to the way we've been treated in the past."
Arabs in my town are afraid to go out. One has already been killed. Others have been threatened. Lots of property has been destroyed. How are they doing in your town?
Wow. Amazing. You found people who don't like michael moore and said bad things about him. Congratulations, I know how hard it is to find right wing commentators these days.
BTW. If he wants to make a profit of the downfall of america more power to him. That makes him a tru capitalist. I suggest you deny him profit by preventing the downfall of america in the first place. Start by voting Bush out.
"So tired of re-reading this wholey incorrect statement by so many people. From day one, humanitarian reasons have been stated."
No they were not. Simply saying so does not make it the truth. The run up to the war was all about 9/11 and the threat of mushroom clouds.
"He's now getting bitch-slapped for making that mistake."
He is a dunce. He got pwoned by the fucking iranians. He got duped about the WMDs. He is an idiot who believes things people tell him as long as what they tell him agrees with what god tells him.
The entire govt of the US was pwoned by the Iranians. What the fuck? Just how stupid is this administration? Didn't they do a fucking background check on this guy? Didn't they watch him? Didn't they keep track of his finances? They paid him millions!.
What a bunch of retards running this country. Thanks for the link.
First of all they are not important to me. They are just another country with which it may be beneficial to have cordial relations. I certainly would not risk one american to protect them from their enemies.
"What do they do for you? How do they help you?"
They supply us with oil a substance we sorely need. They have invested billions of dollars in the US economy. If the Saudis decided that they no longer will accept dollars for oil the value of the dollar would fall like a rock. They let us set up military bases on their land. They control the holiest site in the world for muslims (there are more muslims in the US then jews).
There I just gave you few of many reasons why we might want to be nice to the saudis.
Ok now it's your turn. Why are israelis so important to you? What have they done for you lately?
No. I would have supported the war if GW had said that he was going to fight opression all over the world. If he made an honest and sincere effort to end the suffering of millions of people who suffer horribly I would have supported this war 100%. Mind you I am a lifelong democrat. I will support any president who pledges to use the wealth and the power of this country to help free tibetians, palestenians, chechens, north korans, taiwanese, liberians, sudanese and everybody else who suffers mercilessly at the hands of evil governments.
Bush suddenly found love for the iraqi people after his main justifications for war were found to be lies. Of course he also gave about 10 other reasons depending on when he was giving the speech so it's hard to take him seriously about any excuse he gives now.
Right now he seems to be content to say. "It sucks, it's going to keep sucking, it's not going to get better so shut up and sitdown bitch. Oh yea you better vote for me or the terrorists win".
For all that are following this thread I urge you to read the some of the Iraqi bloggers. You are not getting a real picture of what is going on there if your only news source is American so called news outlets.
"Sure they can. What you mean is that you don't accept those arguments."
The arguments don't make any sense. How can any rational person accept that. Is it allowable to say "cos god told me to"?
"You have to start somewhere. "
You do? Why? If you start someplace then where is your plan? Who is next? Where does it end? Why hasn't the president made this argument? Why hasn't he said that the US will take out every opressive govt in the world and occupy their land and replace them with handpicked puppets. If he did that I might even vote for him!. I would love it if the US would free the chechnians, tibetians, palestenians, east timorese, taiwanese, north koreans and most of africa. The president should grow the balls to make a list of countries he will invade and in what order and why. He won't though because he doesn't give a shit about the opressed people of the world unless they have something he wants.
More importantly you have to make a cogent argument as to why this was the place. Why the Iraqis deserved freedom more then any other people on the planet.
"That question is just a stand-in for saying that you don't want to go to war anywhere, anytime, for anything, against anyone. It's a valid point of view, so why don't you just come right out and say it?"
I guess it's easier to argue the things I never said then the things I did say huh? It's a fun game I admit it. Make up something I didn't say, pretend I said it, and then argue it as if I said it.
It seems like you were duped by this administration too.
The iraqis will have "limited sovereignty". Basically that means that they will have no say over over the US military and the laws of iraq will not apply to the US military. It will also mean that they will not be able to control their oil fields any way they want (i.e they will not be able to privatise them). Finally they will under no circumstances be allowed to join OPEC.
In actuality they will not be able to make any decision with wich the US would disagree. Of course nobody is suggesting that a set of hand picked puppets is going to look out for the interest of iraqis over the interest of americans but they could'nt even if they wanted to.
It's pretty easy to use propaganda against us when we went into the war unjustly in the first place.
We are occupiers of millions of people. We have ahndpicked their govt and will hand over the reigns to our puppets who will have "limited sovereignty" which means we still control their military and oil.
There are now pictures of tortured prisoners and dozens of prisoners that died under our control.
There are now mass graves outside of falujia where hundreds of iraqis are buried.
To this day nobody can make a positive argument as to why we went there, why this was the only solution, or why we had to do it now.
The latest story is that we did it to get rid of saddam. What nobody has bothered to explain is why the iraqis deserved to be freed more then the palestenians, chechnians, taiwanese, chinese, tibetians, east timorese, north koreans or any other long suffering opressed people of the world.
W, Cheney, wolfowitz, rumsfeld, powell, CIA, FBI etc were all duped by Ahmed Chalabi. Chalabi fed the CIA "intelligence" about the trucks with chemical weapons factories in them and the aluminum tubes. The entire administration bought this line hook line and sinker so much that Powell risked his integrity to go before the world and present this as if it was fact.
It's astonishing that the secy of state would not pick up the phone and call up a weapons expert asking them if the aluminum tubes could actually be used in centirfuges (these ones could not) but he did not. He just believed what somebody told him.
This administration is truly a confederacy of dunces. They were duped by a guy who is probably a spy for the iranians and they paid him millions of dollars. They went into a war with no planning for what they would do after they took over the country. They changed their story 10 times as to why they went to war in the first place. Honestly could anybody else have fucked it up this bad?
Getting back to your point. Why would anybody believe anything W says? It's clear he is completely out of the loop on anything that's going on in his administration and he is supremely gullable. You could stick any random series of words in front of him and he'd read it to the cameras without checking first.
Slashdot Mirror
You need to learn how to read. I said that what clinton did was not perjury so therefore he did not commit a felony. I never said that perjury itself is not a felony.
Clinton was never charged with a felony. If he committed a felony he would have been charged. Since he was never charged with a felony he should not have been impeached. The impeachment was illegal and it turned out to very bad for the country and very good for osama bin laden.
Of course Bill Clinton should never been grilled about which hole his cock went into too. What kind a sick perverted fuck asks a question like that?
"According to this [cnn.com] CNN report, "The Arkansas Supreme Court's Committee on Professional Conduct initially called for Clinton's disbarment last year, saying he lied about his affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky.""
Nope Still not perjury try again.
"This is not simple "misleading" or "evasive" testimony. They recommended it because they said that he lied."
Nope still not perjury. Perjury is a crime. In order for somebody to be guilty of a crime they have to charged, tried, and found guilty. None of those things happened.
"If you continue reading in that last article, you will find that Clinton agreed to a settlement that involved him admitting to something less than perjury, but it's wholly disingenuous on your part to even fantasize that the real question was anything different. The fact that he was allowed to resort to legalese weasel words to avoid actually admitting the fact that he committed perjury doesn't change the reality that Clinton lied under oath."
As you said. NOT PERJURY.
"You also claim that perjury is not a felony."
I never said that. I simply told you truth (which you refuse to accept) that clinton was never charged with perjury, tried for perjury or found guilty of perjury.
"The man was guilty. Just admit it, and move along."
Guilty of what? Did I miss the trial? What was he charged with? What was the jury verdict?
Guilty implies there were charges and a trial. None of that happened. He was disbarred which is an administrative punishment NOT A CRIMINAL VERDICT.
"He was disbarred for committing perjury"
NO HE WAS NOT. It was something like "not being 100% forthcoming" or "being evasive". It was not for perjury.
It is not a felony. He was never charged with a felony. He was never tried for a felony. He was never convicted of a felony.
Just because a right wing whacko freeper says it's a felony that does not make it one.
I still say you have to get over your obsession about Bill Clintons cock. You guys had no business asking which pussy his cock went into or whose mouth his cock entered into.
Here is an article from the christian science monitor you should read before going on about the sarin. here
here is another one.
In a nutshell. Nobody knows if it's really sarin yet. There is considerable disagreement about how old the shell is. The weapons experts are saying that the sarin produced in the 80s (the supposed age of the shell) would have degraded by now.
Neither Kay, blix, bush, cheney, or rumsfeld claim that it's part of any arsenal.
So don't pin your hopes on this shell.
I did some digging. He did mention once or twice in a wink-wink nudge-nudge way that he was doing it for humanitarian reasons. Nobody took him seriously though and for good reason because he didn't really believe it himself.
If he really wanted freedom for the Iraqis why did he wait till after 9/11? He said over and over again that there were ties between osama and saddam, that saddam had WMDs, that saddam was close to having nuclear weapons. All those were lies.
"Oh please. Describe for us then exactly what it was that induced the supreme court of Clinton's home state to recommend his disbarment if it wasn't for perjury."
Get it through you rthick skull. It was not perjury. He was never tried for perjury. He was never found guilty of perjury. The disbarment was a civil proceeding not a criminal one.
" Arguably the bar must be higher for people in such positions of responsibility."
No the law must treat everybody equally. A simple point which you don't seem to understand.
"You have a perverse notion of "civilized", if it doesn't include even a basic commitment to standards of truthfulness, decency, and marital fidelity (another form of truthfulness)."
Somewhere in that list is asking people about their cock don't you think? BTW if marital fidelity and truthfulness were criterea for being lawyers and politicians there would be none left.
"Perjury and suborning perjury are felonies. "
It was not perjury. He was never charged with perjury. He was never tried for perjury. He was never convicted of perjury.
"Nice evasion, but I'll bite. In the first place, I happen to agree that because Congress did not declare war, Bush's war in Iraq is unconstitutiional"
No just unconstitutional but against all forms of international law, human decency, common sense and rationality. He waged war for fun and profit.
"Assuming for the moment both that Bush knew what he was saying was untrue and that he deliberately misled the UN"
If he didn't know he should have. But then again he is pretty dumb and got played by the iranians pretty good.
"I still don't care, because the UN has not a scintilla of legal or judicial authority in this country."
He also lied in the state of union in front of congress and all the people of the united states. Of course he has lied a lot to the american people and is careful not to have any of statements under oath available to the public. When he testified before the 9/11 commision he made sure his chaperone (cheney) was there and cheney made sure none of it would be recorded.
"it'll take a lot more than your word for me to believe anything."
History will show. All the mountain of documents that Bush is keeping secret will eventually come out. The truly evil nature of this administration will eventually come to light. Clinton may have been a playboy and liked to fuck but Bush likes to kill and torture people. Maybe that's the way he gets his erections who knows.
He was never tried for nor found guilty of perjury. Lying about your cock and which pussy you stuck your cock into in a deposition is pretty minor crime. Most people would be fined and that would be end of that.
The republicans were obsessed with Bill Clintons cock for a long time so when they had the opportunity they asked him about shape, size and the wehereabouts of his cock.
In a civilized society the question would not be asked in the first place.
Of course none of this is an impeachable ofense (hence the "silly" impeachment). Bush should be impeached for waging an illegal war and lying to the UN which are true high crimes IMHO.
History shows that the impeachment distracted the president enough for al quada to plan and execute attacks against the US. When Clinton hit back he was attacked by the republicans of wagging the dog. Rush limbaugh called him a murderer for example. Osama pwoned the US. He knew the republicans would attack clinton if clinton attacked osama. He took advantage of the situation.
The republicans got to publish detailed information about bill clintons cock on the internet but the US suffered on 9/11. I guess you take whatever victories you can get huh?
"You should do yours. The questioning was part of the case, to establish whether a pattern of such behavior existed. Clinton's lies weakened the case against him."
Pattern of what behavior? Consensual sex? Jones claimed that Clinton dropped his pants and asked for sex. She said no, He said OK and left. In what way was getting a blowjob from an intern relevant. The question was asked in order to trap clinton and it worked. If he admitted it then he would be smeared if the denied it then he would be smeared. It was a brilliant move by the republicans. In the end of course it did not work. Clinton got re-elected. In fact in the end it may have caused tremendeous harm to this country by distracting the white house with a silly impeachment process when Al-quada was gearing up to strike.
In either case Paula Jones was not denied her day in court. There is no way you can manke that claim.
I guess you should break out the links then. Before the war it was all about fighting terrorism, convincing the american people that saddam helped al quada, and how saddam was going to nuke the US. All of those were lies.
If they really cared about the iraqis they would have lifted the sanctions.
You are either for good or for evil. You are either with us or against us.
If you vote for Bush you vote for evil. I am for good. A big part of the mission of the good is the defeat of evil.
The sarin was probably brought into the country by Al quada to fight the US occupation. It's a well known fact they are actively pusuing chemical weapons.
If you are in boston and you vote for bush you might as well stay home. You are just wasting you vote anyway.
"If Bill Clinton had been doing something on his watch BESIDES getting a blowjob, the war and half trillion dollars would not have been necessary. 9/11 might not have happened."
Maybe the whole impeachment thing did turn out to be a distraction huh? I mean if he had a blow job it probably distracted him for like 10 minutes but the impeachment that's another story isn't it?
I also think that 9/11 would have been averted if bush hadn't told the palestenians to go fuck themselves but that's another story altogether. Bill Clinton was actually not hated by the arabs who felt that he at least tried to be fair with them.
"George Bush is one of the worst public speakers I've ever seen (for a President)."
My dog can speak better then him.
" But at least he's doing something."
Doing awful and wrong things is not better then doing nothing. He has fucked up this thing beyond all belief. All he can say now is. "I know it sucks, it's going to suck for a long time, don't look for things to get any better soon". I'd rather he did nothing.
"He's not stupid, much as a lot of you would like to make him out to be."
Oh yes he is. He got duped by the iranian intelligence. How much stupider do you have to be?
"You don't get to be President by being stupid."
Sure you, if your daddy was the president and the republican party backed you up and the corporations give you 200 million dollars.
'That will virutally guarantee that radical fundamentalist Islam does the same thing in Iraq that it did to Iran."
Saddam Hussein was a secular socialist you dumbfuck. He was hated by all religous fundamentalists. Osama referred to him as "the communist". Before the war did you ever see a picture of him in fundamentalist garb? Did you ever see a picture of him praying? Did you ever see him with a beard that all muslim fundamentalists wear? We deposed a secular socialist leader. Before the war Iraqi women were the most educated and highest paid women of all arab kingdoms.
"You figure out the consequences to the stability of our world if a major piece of the energy supply is suddenly controlled by a culture who would just as soon (and actively tries to) kill you as look at you. "
Saddam Hussein never attacked america. He had nothing to do with 9/11. He had no intention of ever attacking america. He was no threat to america even if he wanted to attack us.
"I would vote libertarian or someone independent, but a vote for anyone else is a vote for Kerry, and I can stand that less than I can Bush. OK"
Please don't vote until you do more research. You are woefully uninformed.
"Bill Clinton lied under oath in his testimony when charged with sexual harassment, denying the accuser her day in court."
The accuser was not denied her day in court. He lied when he was being asked about having sex with somebody else not the accuser. You should do some basic research before posting.
"The issue was always about whether he used his office as governor to engage in a pattern of illegal sexual harassment of NON-consenting partners,"
"Lied? Or believed the reports of the intelligence community that Sadam had NOT destroyed his weapons and was making more"
He was duped by Ahmed Chalabi who was working for the iranian intelligence. He got pwoned by the inranians. He did their bidding by getting rid of saddam hussein.
It was very easy to do because all you had to do was to tell GW anything that he already believed. If you told him Saddam Hussein ate babies for lunch he would have taken that the truth because he already believed it. It's a great way to haxor anybody of limited intelligence who does not read or keep up on current events. Just present him with lies that he is likely to believe and he won't question you.
"The world is now on notice that if knock the chip off the shoulder of the USA you just MIGHT find it accepts the challenge and you get pounded into the ground."
Who did we pound into the ground and why? It was osama who attacked us and iraq got pounded into the ground. This tells the world that they should strike at the US wnever possible because we are unable to keep focus on our enemies and attack random targets who have oil instead.
"And that if its troops screw up and start oppressing those under they control, the US will ADMIT it, INVESTIGATE it, REMOVE them from their posts and TRY them for crimes."
That's just a joke. First of all only 6 people will get tried even though the use of torture and rape of prisoners was widespread in cuba, afghanistan, kuwait and iraq. Secondly the punishment is a joke. One guy just got the maximum punishment which was a year in prison. A year for raping somebody. Is that punishment? Will anybody be tried for murder in the case of the 9 people who died in US prisons. Will they also get a year in prison for beating a guy to death? Who will go to jail for dripping 500 pound bombs into a crowded city like falujah and will they be tried ourside the mass grave that sits in what used to be a soccer field?
"I wish that were true. It would be a MAJOR improvement to the way we've been treated in the past."
Arabs in my town are afraid to go out. One has already been killed. Others have been threatened. Lots of property has been destroyed. How are they doing in your town?
NO!. that's the bailiwick of fox news and rush limbaugh!. How dare he infringe on their territory.
Wow. Amazing. You found people who don't like michael moore and said bad things about him. Congratulations, I know how hard it is to find right wing commentators these days.
BTW. If he wants to make a profit of the downfall of america more power to him. That makes him a tru capitalist. I suggest you deny him profit by preventing the downfall of america in the first place. Start by voting Bush out.
"So tired of re-reading this wholey incorrect statement by so many people. From day one, humanitarian reasons have been stated."
No they were not. Simply saying so does not make it the truth. The run up to the war was all about 9/11 and the threat of mushroom clouds.
"He's now getting bitch-slapped for making that mistake."
He is a dunce. He got pwoned by the fucking iranians. He got duped about the WMDs. He is an idiot who believes things people tell him as long as what they tell him agrees with what god tells him.
Oh man that's rich.
The entire govt of the US was pwoned by the Iranians. What the fuck? Just how stupid is this administration? Didn't they do a fucking background check on this guy? Didn't they watch him? Didn't they keep track of his finances? They paid him millions!.
What a bunch of retards running this country. Thanks for the link.
"Why are saudis so important to you?"
First of all they are not important to me. They are just another country with which it may be beneficial to have cordial relations. I certainly would not risk one american to protect them from their enemies.
"What do they do for you? How do they help you?"
They supply us with oil a substance we sorely need.
They have invested billions of dollars in the US economy.
If the Saudis decided that they no longer will accept dollars for oil the value of the dollar would fall like a rock.
They let us set up military bases on their land.
They control the holiest site in the world for muslims (there are more muslims in the US then jews).
There I just gave you few of many reasons why we might want to be nice to the saudis.
Ok now it's your turn. Why are israelis so important to you? What have they done for you lately?
No. I would have supported the war if GW had said that he was going to fight opression all over the world. If he made an honest and sincere effort to end the suffering of millions of people who suffer horribly I would have supported this war 100%. Mind you I am a lifelong democrat. I will support any president who pledges to use the wealth and the power of this country to help free tibetians, palestenians, chechens, north korans, taiwanese, liberians, sudanese and everybody else who suffers mercilessly at the hands of evil governments.
Bush suddenly found love for the iraqi people after his main justifications for war were found to be lies. Of course he also gave about 10 other reasons depending on when he was giving the speech so it's hard to take him seriously about any excuse he gives now.
Right now he seems to be content to say. "It sucks, it's going to keep sucking, it's not going to get better so shut up and sitdown bitch. Oh yea you better vote for me or the terrorists win".
And maybe .001% of windows programmers use the .net command line compilers. The rest of them wouldn't know what to do with a command line compiler.
For all that are following this thread I urge you to read the some of the Iraqi bloggers. You are not getting a real picture of what is going on there if your only news source is American so called news outlets.
"Sure they can. What you mean is that you don't accept those arguments."
The arguments don't make any sense. How can any rational person accept that. Is it allowable to say "cos god told me to"?
"You have to start somewhere. "
You do? Why? If you start someplace then where is your plan? Who is next? Where does it end? Why hasn't the president made this argument? Why hasn't he said that the US will take out every opressive govt in the world and occupy their land and replace them with handpicked puppets. If he did that I might even vote for him!. I would love it if the US would free the chechnians, tibetians, palestenians, east timorese, taiwanese, north koreans and most of africa. The president should grow the balls to make a list of countries he will invade and in what order and why. He won't though because he doesn't give a shit about the opressed people of the world unless they have something he wants.
More importantly you have to make a cogent argument as to why this was the place. Why the Iraqis deserved freedom more then any other people on the planet.
"That question is just a stand-in for saying that you don't want to go to war anywhere, anytime, for anything, against anyone. It's a valid point of view, so why don't you just come right out and say it?"
I guess it's easier to argue the things I never said then the things I did say huh? It's a fun game I admit it. Make up something I didn't say, pretend I said it, and then argue it as if I said it.
It seems like you were duped by this administration too.
The iraqis will have "limited sovereignty". Basically that means that they will have no say over over the US military and the laws of iraq will not apply to the US military. It will also mean that they will not be able to control their oil fields any way they want (i.e they will not be able to privatise them). Finally they will under no circumstances be allowed to join OPEC.
In actuality they will not be able to make any decision with wich the US would disagree. Of course nobody is suggesting that a set of hand picked puppets is going to look out for the interest of iraqis over the interest of americans but they could'nt even if they wanted to.
It's pretty easy to use propaganda against us when we went into the war unjustly in the first place.
We are occupiers of millions of people. We have ahndpicked their govt and will hand over the reigns to our puppets who will have "limited sovereignty" which means we still control their military and oil.
There are now pictures of tortured prisoners and dozens of prisoners that died under our control.
There are now mass graves outside of falujia where hundreds of iraqis are buried.
To this day nobody can make a positive argument as to why we went there, why this was the only solution, or why we had to do it now.
The latest story is that we did it to get rid of saddam. What nobody has bothered to explain is why the iraqis deserved to be freed more then the palestenians, chechnians, taiwanese, chinese, tibetians, east timorese, north koreans or any other long suffering opressed people of the world.
Look at it this way.
W, Cheney, wolfowitz, rumsfeld, powell, CIA, FBI etc were all duped by Ahmed Chalabi. Chalabi fed the CIA "intelligence" about the trucks with chemical weapons factories in them and the aluminum tubes. The entire administration bought this line hook line and sinker so much that Powell risked his integrity to go before the world and present this as if it was fact.
It's astonishing that the secy of state would not pick up the phone and call up a weapons expert asking them if the aluminum tubes could actually be used in centirfuges (these ones could not) but he did not. He just believed what somebody told him.
This administration is truly a confederacy of dunces. They were duped by a guy who is probably a spy for the iranians and they paid him millions of dollars. They went into a war with no planning for what they would do after they took over the country. They changed their story 10 times as to why they went to war in the first place. Honestly could anybody else have fucked it up this bad?
Getting back to your point. Why would anybody believe anything W says? It's clear he is completely out of the loop on anything that's going on in his administration and he is supremely gullable. You could stick any random series of words in front of him and he'd read it to the cameras without checking first.