My father by most peoples definition is brilliant. He is a scientist, he speaks several languages, he is a published author of several highly regarded books both fiction and nonfiction.
Despite all this intelligence he refused to take care of himself, got obese, had several heart attacks and then a series of massive strokes. For decades his doctors told him to lose weight, to stop eating junk food, to drink more water, to exersize and he ignored not only his doctors but his family and friends too.
Now he can barely talk, his mobility is severly limited, he has problems reading and all he does is watch tv.
Was my dad smart or dumb? I used to think he was brilliant but now I realize that he was dumb. Too dumb to prioritize, to take care of the important things in life. The time he took to learn that one more language or to write that one more book should have been spent taking walks or something.
I know lots of "smart" people who are actually dumb like that.
IBM requested full discovery of all documents that mentio MS and SUN. There will be more lawsuits that IBM can initiate against MS from that pile. This gives IBM an excellent tool to leverage against sun and MS in the future.
This suit was a huge tactical mistake by MS. They already regret funding it and they will regret it even more in the future.
To me the main problem is that the judge can't ask questions. In a better "justice system" I would see a conversation like this.
SCO: They stole our code. IBM: Did not!. Judge: SCO, what code did they steal? SCO: Huh? Wha? We don't know. Did we say they stole code? No, they did not steal code, we meant they broke a contract. Judge: Which contract did they break? SCO: Well we don't really know and the contract wasn't signed with us.
Well since you failed the first test there is no need to discuss this any further.
Do me a favor though, say that the holocaust had nothing to do with the formation of israel one more time. That's so cute and makes me laugh every time.
"some of the people in gitmo are innocent. I'd even grant up to 10% (as I did in the parent post)."
And you are fine with torturing innocent people as long as it's only 10%.
"MOST of the people in gitmo were educated from childhood that I'm not human and they would celebrate at finding any way to kill me or hearing someone else had killed me."
How do you know this?
"Do you seriously believe that the vast majority of people in gitmo were picked up while shopping or doing innocuous activities and are completely innocent?"
The vast majority were turned over for bounty or picked up because they were males carrying guns in afghanistan. They were conscripts or trying to defend their country against the invaders.
NONE OF THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH 9/11
"Until the saudi's and others stop educating their 7 year olds that we are not human and deserve to die this is going to continue to be a problem."
Until then we are going to torture innocent people? How many at gitmo are saudis anyway?
"They have no moral restraint with regard to killing us because it was never put in them in the first place."
Mmmm. Sounds oddly like you.
"This has nothing to do with all the nasty shit america and others have done."
Nothing at all huh? Not even a little bit? Not even a smidgen? Nothing at all?
"We (and everyone else) have done lots of nasty shit to everyone- but we don't educate our children from birth to kill other people."
Sure we do. Why do think so many americans are favor of torturing arabs and turning iran and iraq into a nuclear wasteland? Ask a republican whether the US should kill millions of iranians by launching nukes and 30% of them will say yes.
"Yes, there was a widespread boycott campaign against south africa. Aside from that, there haven't been any except for Israel."
That makes sense because they are the only two countries which were (are) running an apartheid regime.
"Yes, Libya was bombed by the US military, and the US was condemned by many for doing that. Like I said, somehow I missed the divestment campaign where universities and churches are lobbied not to do business with Libya."
There was a worldwide sanctions against libya. Were you net aware of that? It was illegal to invest in the libyan economy in any way were you not aware of that?
Anyway bombing and sanctions are much worse then protests and calls for divestment.
"Really? There have been hundreds (if not thousands) of UN resolutions condemning Israel's human rights record, far more than any other country - that is an objective fact."
None have passed in the last couple of decades. People keep trying to raise the same issues over and over again but the resolutions never get past the US veto. That's why there are so many. Besides I don't see how you expect to run an apartheid regime for thirty years without expecting some scorn.
"I would call them hypocrites. Like most of those who condemn Israel."
Well then you are a hypocrite. Either way that's not too big a deal. In the grand scale of sins hypocracy rates pretty low in my book. Consistency is the hobgoblin of the small mind and all that jazz. Whenever I hear that word being thrown around it's by somebody who can not analyze complex situations and sees the world in black and white.
"Depends what you call "pretty good" - admittedly, it's a vague term. Arafat was offered 97% of the land he sought. My point was that instead of continuing to negotiate for the remaining 3%, the PA launched intifadah 2.0."
He was offered what's commonly refered as the 67 borders nation. That is he was offered a series of closed off reservations where palestenians were to live separated from their relatives by israeli controlled land and roads. These reservations were designed to make sure that all commerce and travel happened under the control of israel. In order to cross the street the palestenians had to go through an israeli checkpoint.
On top of that virtually all the water supplies were to be under israeli control. The palestenians at any time could be killed by israel simply shutting off the water supply.
Finally all of east jerusalem would remain under israeli control and of course the right of return was abolished.
This deal was "pretty good" for the israelis who would continue to enjoy their subjugation, humiliation and torture of the palestenians but it sucked for the palestenians themselves.
"Somehow I missed the divestment campaign where universities and churches are lobbied not to do business with Libya."
Did you miss the part where libya was bombed? Did you miss the part where south africa was boycotted and disvested?
The campaign against israel which although is noble is very weak because the israelis have very successfully deflected all critisim of this policies by calling people racist whenever they object.
"The vast majority of those who criticize Israel are silent on far, far worse abuses of human rights. The fact that they are silent on far worse abuses leads to only one conclusion: they are not motivated by human rights, but something else."
That's simply not true. By the way what do you call people who find a way to rationalize and excuse all behavior by israel?
"Guess I'm influenced unduly by the pictures of people jumping to their death from burning buildings."
In that case you are an idiot of the highest order. Let's try an intelligence test shall we? Who at guantanamo was responsible for the people jumping off of those buildings?
"Most of the people there were captured on the battle field or under suspicious circumstances."
1) How do you know? 2) What do mean "most"? How about the rest? 3) What do you mean "suspicious circumstances" and how do you know?
"But I do not believe that the military picked up a bunch of people from neutral locations and through them into Gitmo. I do believe most of them would slit my throat if I tried to help them and they would happily burn my daughter to death or behead her."
Why do you believe these things? Some people were let go from gitmo and they didn't slit anybodies throats. They were all tortured too even though they were innocent. Even the army had to admit eventually that they were innocent and let them go. Why would you believe an army which has admitted that it's making mistakes and torturing innocent people?
In that case israel needs to stop building on that land and needs to stop collecting taxes on the people living there.
"Arafat was offered a pretty good deal by Barak, "
No he wasn't. He was offered a deal but it was not "pretty good".
"You conceded in one of your earlier posts that there are many countries with far worse human rights records with Israel. "
Yes there are countries with worse human rights records.
"And yet, those other countries are not hated to the extent that Israel is."
That's not true. Countries with worse human rights records are hated as much if not more so then israel. North Korea, Sudan immediately come to mind. South africa when it was still running apartheid was also hated universally.
"By what rational basis can so many hate Israel and not hate others? There aren't any."
That question was an intelligence test and you failed it. Israel is hated for the same reason south africa was, sudan is, north korea is, libya was, etc. It's nation which treats humans worse then animals. It runs an apartheid regime. It has state supported torture policies. It locks up people without trials and charges.
"Ok, so who is representing the guy who lives paycheck to paycheck and would be homeless (along with his wife and children) if his job got outsourced?"
If he is a member of a union then his union is doing heavy lobbying. If he is not a member of a union then he is SOL. Those are the breaks. If you want to get anything done you need to get organized.
"While I didn't vote for Bush, I'm fairly conservative, against terrorism, agree many of the people there are scum."
The thing that bothers me most is that people are willing to accept that "many" of the people there are scum. How do you know? Honestly how does anybody know unless they are trusting the president 100%. He is the only arbiter, he points to a picture or a list of people, utters the phrase "bad men" and it's a done deal. No courts, no trials, no evidence, no nothing. The president says so and therefore it must be so.
Sigh arguing with an israel apoligist is always a futile experience, I don't even know why I try.
Anyway like I said. You war pigs will eventually die, your progeny will set things right.
"Third, you are using aparthied state in the wrong context. I know it sounds good and makes your look smart when you use big words like this. The problem is that it doesn't fit in the sence you are using. Israel is not an apartheid "state"."
That was Nelson Mandella who used that word. I think he might know a thing or two about apartheid.
"he only suggestion of segregation or racism is in the occupied territories not the state."
There are jewish only neighborhoods and jewish only roads in israel too but you are right I am talking about the 3.5 million people suffering under israeli occupation.
"This is significant in that territories are treated seperatly from the state."
Why?
"Also, security reasons might mandate this type of treatment in those territories."
Ah I see. The only way israel can secure it's population is by running an apartheid regime in the occupied territories.
It's amazing to me how the apologists will excuse any behavior no matter how vile when it's done by israel.
"That is quite different. Are the west bank and gaza part of Israel? "
Yes. Israel conquered that land during a war.
"Under the Oslo accords signed with Arafat, they are to be turned over to the Palestinian Authority with the eventual goal of establishing a Palestinian state."
That was supposed to happen a long time ago. Still hasn't and never will.
"Does Israel occupy Gaza? "
Yes. They control the borders, the airspace, they collect taxes, they control the ports, they control the water supplies. They recently turned off the electricity and started a campaign to starve the 1.2 million people living there. They have been very good at it too. The people over there are suffering unbelieavablly.
"As for the west bank, how did Israel come to control the area? "
Why is that question important? I say a better question to ask is "how come a democracy has been running an apartheid regime for thirty years and how long can they keep it up"?
"But Israel's neighbours have been at war with Israel since day 1, and they still are at war with Israel (aside from Egypt & Jordan). There are large numbers of well-funded Arabs & Muslims who try very hard every day to kill Israelis."
I agree with your that israel is hated by it's neighbors. In fact it's hated a billion muslims all over the world (a significant percentage of humanity). The only place where israel is liked is the US. The rest of the world eiterh hates them actively of merely dislikes them.
Maybe they should ask themselves why they are hated so passionately by so many people.
"In Israel, Arab citizens can freely vote, create political parties, and serve in the parliament. "
Nevertheless they can be denied housing, jobs, and even the right to drive down jerwish only roads. Anyway what about the arabs in the west bank and gaza?
"In Israel, Arabs enjoy the same freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of thought, and freedom of religion as everyone else"
And yet they are not allowed to live in jewish only neighborhoods, they are not allowed to buy land or houses in certain sections. Needless to say any of them can be grabbed at any time and jailed without a trial or charges.
"In Israel, Arabs can worship as they please. Try holding a Christian service in your private house in Saudi Arabia. You will be arrested, beaten, and thrown in jail. In many Arab states, a Muslim converting to another religion is sentenced to death."
Yes israel is better the saudi arabia. I am sure they are so proud of that.
"The fact that you call Israel an apartheid state without mentioning far, far worse abuses by other states in the middle east clearly identifies you as a hypocrite."
Maybe I expect more from them then being better then syria. I guess I am mistaken. They seem to be perfectly happy with being better then syria and saudi arabia and have stopped aiming too much higher then that.
"Well, don't forget to mention Hezbollah's rocket attacks wich escelated the situation to end up in what you mentioned. "
The rocket attacks started after israel bombed the airport killing lots of civillians.
"It isn't as if it was a responce only to "kidnapping two soldiers". "
That's what you said. Are you backtracking now?
"It makes one side look worse then the other by neglecting certain relevent facts. "
It certainly makes you look worse.
"the Israeli army. "
You consider them an unbiased and credible source?
"Wrong. There was no Palistine or Israel, "
Here let me make this simple for you. There was some land. There were people living on that land. That land was taken away from those people and given to israel.
"They both have the same right to exist and would be under the same control if it wasn't for the aggresion of one against the other."
Israel has not recognized the right of palestine to exist.
"It is fucking history not a personal belief. Jesus!."
Once again. Denying that the holocaust had nothing to do with the creation of israel is no different then denying that the holocaust never happened.
"And yes, I don't have any problem with a country keeping land captured in a war they didn't start. To the victors goes the spoils of war."
Civilized countries eventually make the people they conquer citizens. Even china!. Israel has instead chosen to run an aprtheid state. It will eventually give it up just like south africa did. Eventually all nations look in the mirror and face their ugliness. It has taken israel a long time and it will probably take another generation of war, torture, cruelty, and killing but it will eventually happen.
First people like you will need to grow old and die. The war pigs will all have to die but their children will set things right.
Maybe you are right. Either way they are ordinary people with ordinary needs and firefox seems to make them happy. So I don't see how your perceived memory problems will make any difference to them.
"I refuse to use Firefox due to its ridiculous memory usage."
The only place I hear this complaint is on/. I have installed firefox for dozens of people not one of them ever complained about memory usage or performance.
You can of course refuse to use it for whatever reason you want but that does not change the overall trend.
"This is something that people would be mocking IE for, but it's Firefox, so it's given a pass."
If you provided a specific, repeatable bug report I don't think anybody would give it a pass. It's been my experience that every bug report to firefox gets looked at pretty seriously even if it's a dupe or only occurs on one platform.
"If we all sit around and hope Firefox will magically continue to gain market share, that glass is ultimately going to evaporate. Unless Firefox actively competes, they are going to get trampled."
Except for the two hours it takes to move all your stuff to the new PC. It doesn't use something like rsync either it copies entire files over. God help you if the PC you are on does not have the exact same software installed either.
"yep, Hezbollah claims rights to the Shebbah Farms are but no respectably entity agrees with them. "
No they don't Syria does. UN agrees.
"His account also ommits that within a few hours of Hezbollah kidnapping Isreali soldiers, and before Isreal's counter attack,"
True, it also neglects to mention various incursions into lebanon by israel too. Ayway you are right. Israel killed a thousand people, displaced a million people, destroyed billions of dollars worth of infrastucture, dropped a million cluster bombs because hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers.
"Hezbollah contacted the UN asking for protection from Isreal. And some people say that the UN gave them help in the form of secure comunications proigramed with Isreali security codes taken from Isreal's participation in IFOR and other UN led humanitarian projects."
Some people say? Who. Let's see those links and judge whether that's a credible claim or not.
"No, It was the legue of nations who did it when they used the british submited Balfour Declaration. This was a remapping of countries and boundries of the ottman empire that was defeated durring WW1. Article 22 of the covenent of the legue of nations (wich is simular to a UN resolution unanimously agrees apon)"
Right. There was no israel. Then there was israel. The people who used to live there got their land taken away.
"No, WW2 and hitler was a major factor in the imegration into Isreal. This scared surrounding countries mostly for religious reasons and they presented Isreal with hostilities. You probably know what happened after that. If not, look it up because it doesn't make Isreal out to be the bad guy as ignorant people commonly suggest (not that Isreal hasn't ever done anything bad, it has)."
I suppose you could choose to believe that the holocaust had nothing to do with the formation of israel. That's your option. To me that makes you no better then a holocaust denier though.
Anyway yes israel got attacked. Yes Israel won. Then for the next thirty years they proceeded to run an apartheid state in palestine.
"So to recap, Paslitine, lebenon, syria and most of the other countries in that area only exist by the same rights Isreal does."
Only one of those states runs an apartheid regime. TO be fair they have many things in common too though. All of them torture people and all of them lock up people without trials or charges.
"Are your sure? or did someone just tell you this without telling you the entire story? "
Yes I am sure. Go look it up. Israel does indeed occupy palestine. Israel does indeed torture people in their prisons. Israel does indeed have tens of thousands of palestenians locked up without charges or trials.
I am shocked at your ignorance of the above. I take that back. You are not ignorant of those facts, you know them perfectly well. You just have found a way to justify that somehow. Somehow in your mind apartheid and occupation is OK in this case. Torture is OK in this case. Locking people up without charges or trials is OK in this case.
"Are you implying his defense is flawed? Or just that he posted anonymouslyt has some hidden meaning? I"
I didn't address his points because he as posting anonynously. There is no sense in trying to have a conversation with a coward.
The fact that he chose to defend israel anonymously does indeed have some meaning. Not hidden either.
"It apears that everything he said was true to some extent so the fact that he said it secretly shouldn't mean anything."
True to some extent?
"This idea of destroying Isreal or that they stole land is contrary to actual facts about the middle east in the way it is made up today."
They didn't steal the land. The UN stole the land and gave it to israel.
"Hell most people think Isreal was started because hitler killed some jews."
That was a major contributing factor for the creation of israel.
"And such is most the shit said about Isreal."
Thirty year occupation of 3.5 million people. A system of partheid. State sanctioned torture. Tens of thousands locked up without charges or trials including hundreds of childen. A couple of thousand people killed every year. Etc, etc, etc.
Slashdot Mirror
My father by most peoples definition is brilliant. He is a scientist, he speaks several languages, he is a published author of several highly regarded books both fiction and nonfiction.
Despite all this intelligence he refused to take care of himself, got obese, had several heart attacks and then a series of massive strokes. For decades his doctors told him to lose weight, to stop eating junk food, to drink more water, to exersize and he ignored not only his doctors but his family and friends too.
Now he can barely talk, his mobility is severly limited, he has problems reading and all he does is watch tv.
Was my dad smart or dumb? I used to think he was brilliant but now I realize that he was dumb. Too dumb to prioritize, to take care of the important things in life. The time he took to learn that one more language or to write that one more book should have been spent taking walks or something.
I know lots of "smart" people who are actually dumb like that.
IBM requested full discovery of all documents that mentio MS and SUN. There will be more lawsuits that IBM can initiate against MS from that pile. This gives IBM an excellent tool to leverage against sun and MS in the future.
This suit was a huge tactical mistake by MS. They already regret funding it and they will regret it even more in the future.
To me the main problem is that the judge can't ask questions. In a better "justice system" I would see a conversation like this.
SCO: They stole our code.
IBM: Did not!.
Judge: SCO, what code did they steal?
SCO: Huh? Wha? We don't know. Did we say they stole code? No, they did not steal code, we meant they broke a contract.
Judge: Which contract did they break?
SCO: Well we don't really know and the contract wasn't signed with us.
Judge: Case dismissed.
Well since you failed the first test there is no need to discuss this any further.
Do me a favor though, say that the holocaust had nothing to do with the formation of israel one more time. That's so cute and makes me laugh every time.
"I can understand your frustration when the fact doesn't support the claims."
The problem is that I am dealing with a person who has no perception of reality. Lets start here.
True or false.
1) At one time there was no israel.
2) Then there was israel.
3) The people who lived in the land that israel occupies lost their land.
Let's see if you can answer that. If you can then we can go into all the rest.
"I find most of what israel has done to be more justified then what thier oposition has done. "
Yes. You are an apologist for a nation which keeps 3.5 million people under occupation.
"some of the people in gitmo are innocent. I'd even grant up to 10% (as I did in the parent post)."
And you are fine with torturing innocent people as long as it's only 10%.
"MOST of the people in gitmo were educated from childhood that I'm not human and they would celebrate at finding any way to kill me or hearing someone else had killed me."
How do you know this?
"Do you seriously believe that the vast majority of people in gitmo were picked up while shopping or doing innocuous activities and are completely innocent?"
The vast majority were turned over for bounty or picked up because they were males carrying guns in afghanistan. They were conscripts or trying to defend their country against the invaders.
NONE OF THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH 9/11
"Until the saudi's and others stop educating their 7 year olds that we are not human and deserve to die this is going to continue to be a problem."
Until then we are going to torture innocent people? How many at gitmo are saudis anyway?
"They have no moral restraint with regard to killing us because it was never put in them in the first place."
Mmmm. Sounds oddly like you.
"This has nothing to do with all the nasty shit america and others have done."
Nothing at all huh? Not even a little bit? Not even a smidgen? Nothing at all?
"We (and everyone else) have done lots of nasty shit to everyone- but we don't educate our children from birth to kill other people."
Sure we do. Why do think so many americans are favor of torturing arabs and turning iran and iraq into a nuclear wasteland? Ask a republican whether the US should kill millions of iranians by launching nukes and 30% of them will say yes.
"Yes, there was a widespread boycott campaign against south africa. Aside from that, there haven't been any except for Israel."
That makes sense because they are the only two countries which were (are) running an apartheid regime.
"Yes, Libya was bombed by the US military, and the US was condemned by many for doing that. Like I said, somehow I missed the divestment campaign where universities and churches are lobbied not to do business with Libya."
There was a worldwide sanctions against libya. Were you net aware of that? It was illegal to invest in the libyan economy in any way were you not aware of that?
Anyway bombing and sanctions are much worse then protests and calls for divestment.
"Really? There have been hundreds (if not thousands) of UN resolutions condemning Israel's human rights record, far more than any other country - that is an objective fact."
None have passed in the last couple of decades. People keep trying to raise the same issues over and over again but the resolutions never get past the US veto. That's why there are so many. Besides I don't see how you expect to run an apartheid regime for thirty years without expecting some scorn.
"I would call them hypocrites. Like most of those who condemn Israel."
Well then you are a hypocrite. Either way that's not too big a deal. In the grand scale of sins hypocracy rates pretty low in my book. Consistency is the hobgoblin of the small mind and all that jazz. Whenever I hear that word being thrown around it's by somebody who can not analyze complex situations and sees the world in black and white.
If there was no nuclear test why would there be sanctions?
I ask that in all seriousness. If there is no nuclear test then why would anybody need to do anything different then last week?
"Depends what you call "pretty good" - admittedly, it's a vague term. Arafat was offered 97% of the land he sought. My point was that instead of continuing to negotiate for the remaining 3%, the PA launched intifadah 2.0."
He was offered what's commonly refered as the 67 borders nation. That is he was offered a series of closed off reservations where palestenians were to live separated from their relatives by israeli controlled land and roads. These reservations were designed to make sure that all commerce and travel happened under the control of israel. In order to cross the street the palestenians had to go through an israeli checkpoint.
On top of that virtually all the water supplies were to be under israeli control. The palestenians at any time could be killed by israel simply shutting off the water supply.
Finally all of east jerusalem would remain under israeli control and of course the right of return was abolished.
This deal was "pretty good" for the israelis who would continue to enjoy their subjugation, humiliation and torture of the palestenians but it sucked for the palestenians themselves.
"Somehow I missed the divestment campaign where universities and churches are lobbied not to do business with Libya."
Did you miss the part where libya was bombed? Did you miss the part where south africa was boycotted and disvested?
The campaign against israel which although is noble is very weak because the israelis have very successfully deflected all critisim of this policies by calling people racist whenever they object.
"The vast majority of those who criticize Israel are silent on far, far worse abuses of human rights. The fact that they are silent on far worse abuses leads to only one conclusion: they are not motivated by human rights, but something else."
That's simply not true. By the way what do you call people who find a way to rationalize and excuse all behavior by israel?
rome wasn't built in a day. It will happen eventually. Good enough and cheaper always wins.
My guess would be that 100% of the fortune 500 has at least one linux server someplace. It will eventually happen.
"Guess I'm influenced unduly by the pictures of people jumping to their death from burning buildings."
In that case you are an idiot of the highest order. Let's try an intelligence test shall we? Who at guantanamo was responsible for the people jumping off of those buildings?
"Most of the people there were captured on the battle field or under suspicious circumstances."
1) How do you know?
2) What do mean "most"? How about the rest?
3) What do you mean "suspicious circumstances" and how do you know?
"But I do not believe that the military picked up a bunch of people from neutral locations and through them into Gitmo. I do believe most of them would slit my throat if I tried to help them and they would happily burn my daughter to death or behead her."
Why do you believe these things? Some people were let go from gitmo and they didn't slit anybodies throats. They were all tortured too even though they were innocent. Even the army had to admit eventually that they were innocent and let them go. Why would you believe an army which has admitted that it's making mistakes and torturing innocent people?
"the West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel. "
In that case israel needs to stop building on that land and needs to stop collecting taxes on the people living there.
"Arafat was offered a pretty good deal by Barak, "
No he wasn't. He was offered a deal but it was not "pretty good".
"You conceded in one of your earlier posts that there are many countries with far worse human rights records with Israel. "
Yes there are countries with worse human rights records.
"And yet, those other countries are not hated to the extent that Israel is."
That's not true. Countries with worse human rights records are hated as much if not more so then israel. North Korea, Sudan immediately come to mind. South africa when it was still running apartheid was also hated universally.
"By what rational basis can so many hate Israel and not hate others? There aren't any."
That question was an intelligence test and you failed it. Israel is hated for the same reason south africa was, sudan is, north korea is, libya was, etc. It's nation which treats humans worse then animals. It runs an apartheid regime. It has state supported torture policies. It locks up people without trials and charges.
All of these things are immoral and wrong.
"Ok, so who is representing the guy who lives paycheck to paycheck and would be homeless (along with his wife and children) if his job got outsourced?"
If he is a member of a union then his union is doing heavy lobbying. If he is not a member of a union then he is SOL. Those are the breaks. If you want to get anything done you need to get organized.
"While I didn't vote for Bush, I'm fairly conservative, against terrorism, agree many of the people there are scum."
The thing that bothers me most is that people are willing to accept that "many" of the people there are scum. How do you know? Honestly how does anybody know unless they are trusting the president 100%. He is the only arbiter, he points to a picture or a list of people, utters the phrase "bad men" and it's a done deal. No courts, no trials, no evidence, no nothing. The president says so and therefore it must be so.
Sigh arguing with an israel apoligist is always a futile experience, I don't even know why I try.
Anyway like I said. You war pigs will eventually die, your progeny will set things right.
"Third, you are using aparthied state in the wrong context. I know it sounds good and makes your look smart when you use big words like this. The problem is that it doesn't fit in the sence you are using. Israel is not an apartheid "state"."
That was Nelson Mandella who used that word. I think he might know a thing or two about apartheid.
"he only suggestion of segregation or racism is in the occupied territories not the state."
There are jewish only neighborhoods and jewish only roads in israel too but you are right I am talking about the 3.5 million people suffering under israeli occupation.
"This is significant in that territories are treated seperatly from the state."
Why?
"Also, security reasons might mandate this type of treatment in those territories."
Ah I see. The only way israel can secure it's population is by running an apartheid regime in the occupied territories.
It's amazing to me how the apologists will excuse any behavior no matter how vile when it's done by israel.
"That is quite different. Are the west bank and gaza part of Israel? "
Yes. Israel conquered that land during a war.
"Under the Oslo accords signed with Arafat, they are to be turned over to the Palestinian Authority with the eventual goal of establishing a Palestinian state."
That was supposed to happen a long time ago. Still hasn't and never will.
"Does Israel occupy Gaza? "
Yes. They control the borders, the airspace, they collect taxes, they control the ports, they control the water supplies. They recently turned off the electricity and started a campaign to starve the 1.2 million people living there. They have been very good at it too. The people over there are suffering unbelieavablly.
"As for the west bank, how did Israel come to control the area? "
Why is that question important? I say a better question to ask is "how come a democracy has been running an apartheid regime for thirty years and how long can they keep it up"?
"But Israel's neighbours have been at war with Israel since day 1, and they still are at war with Israel (aside from Egypt & Jordan). There are large numbers of well-funded Arabs & Muslims who try very hard every day to kill Israelis."
I agree with your that israel is hated by it's neighbors. In fact it's hated a billion muslims all over the world (a significant percentage of humanity). The only place where israel is liked is the US. The rest of the world eiterh hates them actively of merely dislikes them.
Maybe they should ask themselves why they are hated so passionately by so many people.
"In Israel, Arab citizens can freely vote, create political parties, and serve in the parliament. "
Nevertheless they can be denied housing, jobs, and even the right to drive down jerwish only roads. Anyway what about the arabs in the west bank and gaza?
"In Israel, Arabs enjoy the same freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of thought, and freedom of religion as everyone else"
And yet they are not allowed to live in jewish only neighborhoods, they are not allowed to buy land or houses in certain sections. Needless to say any of them can be grabbed at any time and jailed without a trial or charges.
"In Israel, Arabs can worship as they please. Try holding a Christian service in your private house in Saudi Arabia. You will be arrested, beaten, and thrown in jail. In many Arab states, a Muslim converting to another religion is sentenced to death."
Yes israel is better the saudi arabia. I am sure they are so proud of that.
"The fact that you call Israel an apartheid state without mentioning far, far worse abuses by other states in the middle east clearly identifies you as a hypocrite."
Maybe I expect more from them then being better then syria. I guess I am mistaken. They seem to be perfectly happy with being better then syria and saudi arabia and have stopped aiming too much higher then that.
"Well, don't forget to mention Hezbollah's rocket attacks wich escelated the situation to end up in what you mentioned. "
The rocket attacks started after israel bombed the airport killing lots of civillians.
"It isn't as if it was a responce only to "kidnapping two soldiers". "
That's what you said. Are you backtracking now?
"It makes one side look worse then the other by neglecting certain relevent facts. "
It certainly makes you look worse.
"the Israeli army. "
You consider them an unbiased and credible source?
"Wrong. There was no Palistine or Israel, "
Here let me make this simple for you. There was some land. There were people living on that land. That land was taken away from those people and given to israel.
"They both have the same right to exist and would be under the same control if it wasn't for the aggresion of one against the other."
Israel has not recognized the right of palestine to exist.
"It is fucking history not a personal belief. Jesus!."
Once again. Denying that the holocaust had nothing to do with the creation of israel is no different then denying that the holocaust never happened.
"And yes, I don't have any problem with a country keeping land captured in a war they didn't start. To the victors goes the spoils of war."
Civilized countries eventually make the people they conquer citizens. Even china!. Israel has instead chosen to run an aprtheid state. It will eventually give it up just like south africa did. Eventually all nations look in the mirror and face their ugliness. It has taken israel a long time and it will probably take another generation of war, torture, cruelty, and killing but it will eventually happen.
First people like you will need to grow old and die. The war pigs will all have to die but their children will set things right.
Maybe you are right. Either way they are ordinary people with ordinary needs and firefox seems to make them happy. So I don't see how your perceived memory problems will make any difference to them.
"When IE7 comes out, that will change."
/. I have installed firefox for dozens of people not one of them ever complained about memory usage or performance.
I guess time will tell.
"I refuse to use Firefox due to its ridiculous memory usage."
The only place I hear this complaint is on
You can of course refuse to use it for whatever reason you want but that does not change the overall trend.
"This is something that people would be mocking IE for, but it's Firefox, so it's given a pass."
If you provided a specific, repeatable bug report I don't think anybody would give it a pass. It's been my experience that every bug report to firefox gets looked at pretty seriously even if it's a dupe or only occurs on one platform.
"If we all sit around and hope Firefox will magically continue to gain market share, that glass is ultimately going to evaporate. Unless Firefox actively competes, they are going to get trampled."
Firefox is gaining, IE is losing.
What's your point again?
Except for the two hours it takes to move all your stuff to the new PC. It doesn't use something like rsync either it copies entire files over. God help you if the PC you are on does not have the exact same software installed either.
"yep, Hezbollah claims rights to the Shebbah Farms are but no respectably entity agrees with them. "
No they don't Syria does. UN agrees.
"His account also ommits that within a few hours of Hezbollah kidnapping Isreali soldiers, and before Isreal's counter attack,"
True, it also neglects to mention various incursions into lebanon by israel too. Ayway you are right. Israel killed a thousand people, displaced a million people, destroyed billions of dollars worth of infrastucture, dropped a million cluster bombs because hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers.
"Hezbollah contacted the UN asking for protection from Isreal. And some people say that the UN gave them help in the form of secure comunications proigramed with Isreali security codes taken from Isreal's participation in IFOR and other UN led humanitarian projects."
Some people say? Who. Let's see those links and judge whether that's a credible claim or not.
"No, It was the legue of nations who did it when they used the british submited Balfour Declaration. This was a remapping of countries and boundries of the ottman empire that was defeated durring WW1. Article 22 of the covenent of the legue of nations (wich is simular to a UN resolution unanimously agrees apon)"
Right. There was no israel. Then there was israel. The people who used to live there got their land taken away.
"No, WW2 and hitler was a major factor in the imegration into Isreal. This scared surrounding countries mostly for religious reasons and they presented Isreal with hostilities. You probably know what happened after that. If not, look it up because it doesn't make Isreal out to be the bad guy as ignorant people commonly suggest (not that Isreal hasn't ever done anything bad, it has)."
I suppose you could choose to believe that the holocaust had nothing to do with the formation of israel. That's your option. To me that makes you no better then a holocaust denier though.
Anyway yes israel got attacked. Yes Israel won. Then for the next thirty years they proceeded to run an apartheid state in palestine.
"So to recap, Paslitine, lebenon, syria and most of the other countries in that area only exist by the same rights Isreal does."
Only one of those states runs an apartheid regime. TO be fair they have many things in common too though. All of them torture people and all of them lock up people without trials or charges.
"Are your sure? or did someone just tell you this without telling you the entire story? "
Yes I am sure. Go look it up. Israel does indeed occupy palestine. Israel does indeed torture people in their prisons. Israel does indeed have tens of thousands of palestenians locked up without charges or trials.
I am shocked at your ignorance of the above. I take that back. You are not ignorant of those facts, you know them perfectly well. You just have found a way to justify that somehow. Somehow in your mind apartheid and occupation is OK in this case. Torture is OK in this case. Locking people up without charges or trials is OK in this case.
"Are you implying his defense is flawed? Or just that he posted anonymouslyt has some hidden meaning? I"
I didn't address his points because he as posting anonynously. There is no sense in trying to have a conversation with a coward.
The fact that he chose to defend israel anonymously does indeed have some meaning. Not hidden either.
"It apears that everything he said was true to some extent so the fact that he said it secretly shouldn't mean anything."
True to some extent?
"This idea of destroying Isreal or that they stole land is contrary to actual facts about the middle east in the way it is made up today."
They didn't steal the land. The UN stole the land and gave it to israel.
"Hell most people think Isreal was started because hitler killed some jews."
That was a major contributing factor for the creation of israel.
"And such is most the shit said about Isreal."
Thirty year occupation of 3.5 million people. A system of partheid. State sanctioned torture. Tens of thousands locked up without charges or trials including hundreds of childen. A couple of thousand people killed every year. Etc, etc, etc.