Well Mr Shill where are your studies showing how much more productive VS.NET is then Eclipse? I am still waiting for you to prove that statement you made way back.
"t was a misguided liberal jury in a civil tort (not a court ruling as you asserted) that awarded big money on an emotional sympathy vote."
Did you interview the jury to determine if they were liberal or is anybody who disagrees with you automatically liberal? Did you look at their voting records? Or perhaps you are merely talking out of your ass again?
Too bad McDOnalds didn't hire you though. You are Soooooooooo much smarter then those idiot lawyers they hired. Look at all the "evidence" you presented here!.
"Evil has a deliberate intent to cause pain and suffering to others, or a selfish desire combined with a brutal indifference as to the effects this causes on others. "
OK. Is there any reason to doubt that the pain and suffering to others Bush has caused is in any way not intentional?
"There is a big differnce in say, Saddam Hussain murdering people who get in his way, and president Jr. using illicit wiretapping to chase terrorists."
Of course there is, but why don't you compare the saddam murdering people to bush murdering people?
"If Saddam suspected a terrorist cell opperating, he would simply round up the suspects and anyone remotely connected with them, and have them tortured to death. No, president Jr. is simply a short sighted fool. "
Bush has also rounded up people and had them tortured to death.
Really what we are talking about here is a difference in numbers. Sure saddam had more people tortured to death but is that really anything to hang your moral superiority on? The cold hard fact is the both saddam and bush had people tortured to death. In all honesty we don't know how many either of them tortured to death, we can probably guess saddam had more people tortured to death though. That's a safe bet.
"Not everybody is a programmer. This is the first excuse that a lot of people run for, and it's weak."
Nope. But then again you don't have to be one to contribute.
"The whole point of an "open-source community" is the idea of people exchanging ideas to create really useful software for everybody."
No the whole point of the open source community is that everybody pitches in to create really useful software. Exchanging ideas is just a tiny part of that. The hard work is coding, helping users, contributing to the listserve, writing documents, debugging, testing, etc.
The problem is that people like you want to do nothing but want other people to create a clone of photoshop and give it to you for free. Worse yet you want to shit on them the whole time because they are not working fast enough or that what they create isn't good enough for you. If you are not willing the help the least you can do is not to shit on the people doing the work.
"One of the biggest complaints of the guy who cobbled together GimpShop was that all the resources were scattered around with no rhyme or reason, making tracking things down really hard to do."
Well there you go. You just found a defect in the system where you can help. Go to it.
"Yep, that's a sure-fire way to make the Gimp better. "Sure, our program sucks, but you don't have to use it.""
Who says it sucks? You? Maybe the some people think it's great.
"Might as well pack it in and call it quits with that kind of attitude."
It's better then "you guys suck, your software sucks, I don't use your program but I am going to tell everybody how much you suck and how much your software sucks. Photoshop is better, open source sucks. Hurry up and make your program exactly the same as photoshop so I can have a free copy of photoshop".
I'd say your attitude sucks way more.
"What we're talking about is the large majority of serious Photoshop users, not just one or two malcontents."
Large majority of photoshop users are people who pirated it and use to it touch up pictures. The people who pay for it are pros using macs they will never switch to linux and gimp.
"here are just a few basics that could be implemented that would make some serious waves in Gimp adoption, without turning the Gimp into some sort of bastardized Photoshop clone."
Well then keep shitting on the developers and the community, maybe they will get tired of you bitching at them and give you what you want.
"Finally, good usability requires huge amounts of humility."
No, good usability requires a tremendous amount of work. So the question is who is going to do the work, why, and how?
Since you are not willing to do the work, who is? And are those people going to be more motivated to make you happy while you are shitting on them or while you are helping them?
"Isn't it ironic (in the English sense of the word) that in this particular case Microsoft has that humility, whereas the open source community lacks it?"
I have lost a lot of karma for defending GIMP but here it goes anyway.
"If Microsoft has kept something crummy for six years, would it be reasonable for you to state that it's not a problem for most users, and thus nothing to complain about?"
MS has kept things crummy for six years but that's beside the point. This is not a "product". GIMP is not run by a corporation.
"In real life (which was what TFA was about) most people can't afford to "become part of the community" because they have real, actual work to do. I use at least ten applications on a very regular basis. I most certainly can't afford to "be part of the community" for all of those. In the real world, what counts is how well stuff actually works right now, not how good they could possibly become in the future if everybody would just help out. Sorry, but that's the way it is."
Well sorry but that's the way open source works. The project is responsive to it's community. If you refuse to join the community how can you expect it be responsive to you? Sorry but that's the say it is.
"TFA is about why people don't use the free stuff. That makes this comment a bit disingenious, don't you think?"
The TFA is about that, all the/. comments are nothing but bashing the GIMP developers for not giving them a free version of photoshop.
"It doesn't make sense to be oblivious to real user needs and, simultaneously, to bash real users for not using specific stuff."
Who is bashing the users for not using GIMP?
"I know I'm Captain Obvious for spelling this out, but it seems to be needed."
Point to me to a few articles bashing people for not using GIMP, until then you are merely full of shit. People who don't use GIMP are the ones bashing it. This doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like then use photoshop and be happy.
"Yes, both parties love spending tax dollars... but at least the red-staters are at least a little more squeamish about it than their more lefty-socialist counterparts."
That's odd because statistically they are bigger beneficieries of the taxpayers then their more secular and educated counterparts. In fact the blue states tend to be the "donor" states and the red states are the ones with their hands out collecting "welfare" (subsidies).
It is said that on his deathbed Neils Bohr said "when I die, I am going ask god about relativity and turbulence. I think he can tell me something about relativity".
"The point is to convince the makers of certain products to create linux versions so that companies who want to can switch to linux."
IT will never happen.
"It doesn't matter if it's 5% or 50%, if the rest has no critical apps, a lot of them or don't ever plan to switch then the survey is not for them"
YEs it does matter. If you have money and energy to spend then it's better to spend your resources going after 95% of the market rather then 5% of the market.
Novell needs to spend it's time making openexchange, outlook plug ins, evolution better. Every single company in the world uses email. Why spend even a day thinking about winning over Mac shops? It will never happen.
"I don't think a reasonable person could come to the conclusion that I'm a moron from anything I've written here, so I'll conclude that you have a problem with either reading comprehension or basic logic. David"
You still haven't told me how you were forced to install and use GIMP.
As for your moron status other people have pointed exactly how deep your ignorance runs.
"Also, the survey lists Desktop in one of the questions so I assume it means "what do you need to move your business to Linux.""
What percentage of businesses do their own graphic work? I would say less then 5%. Even in a windows shop that does their own graphics processing the graphics shop runs macs anyway.
"For a professional for whom the latter two factors are of greater importance, the "just as good as" argument isn't going to be very persuasive."
FOr a decade or more SQL server is/has-been inferior to Oracle. Everytime a flamewar flared up on usenet the MS fanboi crown always sang this tune. "It's good enough, it does what you need, you don't need those extra features, and it costs a hell of a lot less".
So there you go. Open office is not as good as MS office but it costs a hell of a lot less. It's up to your administration, CIO, CEO or whatever to actually justify paying for MS office when there is a product almost as good for free.
Some people are able to justify that, more and more people are realizing that they can't.
Before you bring up re-training and compatibility just remember your people will need to get re-trained at every upgrade of office and they will lose compatibility as well.
"Its pretty sad when its obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet its still the same thing after what, six years?"
It seems to me that if it hasn't been changed in six years then it's not that great of a problem for most users. Open source projects tend to be driven by the users and the developers and more precisely by "contributors". In most open source projects the user contributors vastly outnumber the developer contributors. They are the ones hanging out at IRC asking and answering questions, filing bug reports and helping the developers debug the application by repeatedly installing, patching, and compiling the unstable tree.
If the majority of the contributors don't see the tabbed interface as being a priority then it won't happen.
My suggestion to all the people bitching about how GIMP sucks and how much they hate using it (why are you using it then?) is to become a part of the community. Contribute and if enough of you contribute enough then your needs will probably be taken care of too. Failing that you could always take up a collection and offer a bounty.
I think it's a little unseemly to bash people who give you something for free. If you don't like it you are under no obligation to use it. Just steal photoshop like everybody else at/. does.
"The very fact that some people are arogant enough to try to shove tools onto people that WILL NOT DO THE JOB shows why it's hard to adopt Linux on the desktop."
BHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Shoving down your throat? Did the GIMP goon squad break into your house and make you install it holding a gun to your head?
"Of course, it also doesn't help that so many Linux people seem to take the attitude that the Linux desktop is fine, but artists and other non-technical types are just too stupid to use it."
I don't know about artists but you clearly are extremely stupid. Why don't you tell all of us how GIMP was shoved down your throat again?
Photoshop in the datacenter? Clearly this survey is messed up. Chances are 15 year olds just spammed the survey and put down what they wished for the most which is a free photoshop. I guess a free GIMP isn't good enough for them and they are tired of stealing photoshop.
"But even with a half-dozen of these so far, it's still way behind ASP.NET, schedule-wise, for midsized projects."
For it makes no sense to use ASP.NET or J2EE. FOr midisze projects you are much better off with ruby on rails or django or zope.
I am still waiting for that study showing how ASP.NET is more productive though. Oh and did you change your position? Is choice good now?
The problem with ms fanbois (like you) is that you guys seem to think the application development lifecycle consists only of first beta. You guys only measure the time it takes to slap some controls on the screen, type in an SQL statement into the control and go around slapping each other on the back about how fast you built an "application". I have news for you, bound controls are a bad idea. Debugging and refactoring takes more time then development. Deployment, documentation, testing, bugfixing, enhancing etc take up the vast majority of the development lifecycle.
Until VS 2005 the fanbois didn't even have a decent build system or refactoring!. But they didn't care about that shit, they were happy slapping databound grids on their forms and calling it done.
What's there to debate? It's not like McDOnald's can afford good lawyers. All the so called "evidence" you have provided was most likely presented in court. Unless you are some sort of a genious and located something on google that the mcDonalds lawyers did not during the long time leading up to the trial and the trial itself you simply full of shit.
There is nothing to debate here. You got your panties in a wad about this because according to your opinion the water was not too hot. Well despite the best defence money could buy a legal ruling said otherwise.
The fact that you are unable to accept that shows your immaturrity and your zealotry in this regard. Zealots can't be persuaded by reason or evidence.
A corporation burned somebody, they had to pay a little money and went on their way. Deal with it. It's not like anybody at McDonalds went to jail or was held personally responsible for their actions. That's why corporations were invented. To shirk personal responsiblity.
"Excuse me if I don't put 100% faith into the courts."
YOu can put your faith in anything you like. Even though I too do not have 100% faith in the US court system I certainly have more faith in that then I do on some schmuck on slashdot who got his panties in a wad because McDonalds had to pay a little money to an old woman they burned.
"And if they are, that just makes the point I addressed elsewhere -- Java has too damn many third party frameworks "
I am still waiting for you to produce some studies showing that.NET is productive then java.
While you are at it you can also prove why.NET is more productive then webobjects or tapestry.
For a bonus you can compare the relative strenghts of netbeans, IDEA, eclipse, java studio creator etc vs VS.NET. Also discuss why windows programmers have to learn an entirely new paradign every three years or so too.
I notice that most MS fan boi types seem to detest choice. That's their number one complaint about any competing technology. At the same time though they love to trumpet about how.NET gives you the choice of languages to program in. So what is it? Is choice bad or is choice good? The way I see it choice is good, there is no law saying you have to use all of them, pick one, learn it, use it, be happy. Better then getting some half assed bullshit being shoved down your throat by MS.
How is more productive? Is it more productive then tapestry? Wicket? Trails?
That's just FUD. Show some studies showing.NET is more productive so I can pick it apart.
Yes, slapping controls in a page and typing in SQL into them is more pdocutive then coding struts by hand. It's nowhere near as productive as webojects though. Not even close.
Slashdot Mirror
You said VS.NET is more productive. I am waiting for proof of that statement.
So if you are not a shill or a fan boi then you must be able to back up your claims.
Well Mr Shill where are your studies showing how much more productive VS.NET is then Eclipse? I am still waiting for you to prove that statement you made way back.
"t was a misguided liberal jury in a civil tort (not a court ruling as you asserted) that awarded big money on an emotional sympathy vote."
Did you interview the jury to determine if they were liberal or is anybody who disagrees with you automatically liberal? Did you look at their voting records? Or perhaps you are merely talking out of your ass again?
Too bad McDOnalds didn't hire you though. You are Soooooooooo much smarter then those idiot lawyers they hired. Look at all the "evidence" you presented here!.
"Evil has a deliberate intent to cause pain and suffering to others, or a selfish desire combined with a brutal indifference as to the effects this causes on others. "
OK. Is there any reason to doubt that the pain and suffering to others Bush has caused is in any way not intentional?
"There is a big differnce in say, Saddam Hussain murdering people who get in his way, and president Jr. using illicit wiretapping to chase terrorists."
Of course there is, but why don't you compare the saddam murdering people to bush murdering people?
"If Saddam suspected a terrorist cell opperating, he would simply round up the suspects and anyone remotely connected with them, and have them tortured to death. No, president Jr. is simply a short sighted fool. "
Bush has also rounded up people and had them tortured to death.
Really what we are talking about here is a difference in numbers. Sure saddam had more people tortured to death but is that really anything to hang your moral superiority on? The cold hard fact is the both saddam and bush had people tortured to death. In all honesty we don't know how many either of them tortured to death, we can probably guess saddam had more people tortured to death though. That's a safe bet.
"Kind of misses the point of free software. "
Yup, you missed the point entirely.
"Not everybody is a programmer. This is the first excuse that a lot of people run for, and it's weak."
Nope. But then again you don't have to be one to contribute.
"The whole point of an "open-source community" is the idea of people exchanging ideas to create really useful software for everybody."
No the whole point of the open source community is that everybody pitches in to create really useful software. Exchanging ideas is just a tiny part of that. The hard work is coding, helping users, contributing to the listserve, writing documents, debugging, testing, etc.
The problem is that people like you want to do nothing but want other people to create a clone of photoshop and give it to you for free. Worse yet you want to shit on them the whole time because they are not working fast enough or that what they create isn't good enough for you. If you are not willing the help the least you can do is not to shit on the people doing the work.
"One of the biggest complaints of the guy who cobbled together GimpShop was that all the resources were scattered around with no rhyme or reason, making tracking things down really hard to do."
Well there you go. You just found a defect in the system where you can help. Go to it.
"Yep, that's a sure-fire way to make the Gimp better. "Sure, our program sucks, but you don't have to use it.""
Who says it sucks? You? Maybe the some people think it's great.
"Might as well pack it in and call it quits with that kind of attitude."
It's better then "you guys suck, your software sucks, I don't use your program but I am going to tell everybody how much you suck and how much your software sucks. Photoshop is better, open source sucks. Hurry up and make your program exactly the same as photoshop so I can have a free copy of photoshop".
I'd say your attitude sucks way more.
"What we're talking about is the large majority of serious Photoshop users, not just one or two malcontents."
Large majority of photoshop users are people who pirated it and use to it touch up pictures. The people who pay for it are pros using macs they will never switch to linux and gimp.
"here are just a few basics that could be implemented that would make some serious waves in Gimp adoption, without turning the Gimp into some sort of bastardized Photoshop clone."
Well then keep shitting on the developers and the community, maybe they will get tired of you bitching at them and give you what you want.
"Finally, good usability requires huge amounts of humility."
No, good usability requires a tremendous amount of work. So the question is who is going to do the work, why, and how?
Since you are not willing to do the work, who is? And are those people going to be more motivated to make you happy while you are shitting on them or while you are helping them?
"Isn't it ironic (in the English sense of the word) that in this particular case Microsoft has that humility, whereas the open source community lacks it?"
MS has humility? Since when?
I have lost a lot of karma for defending GIMP but here it goes anyway.
/. comments are nothing but bashing the GIMP developers for not giving them a free version of photoshop.
"If Microsoft has kept something crummy for six years, would it be reasonable for you to state that it's not a problem for most users, and thus nothing to complain about?"
MS has kept things crummy for six years but that's beside the point. This is not a "product". GIMP is not run by a corporation.
"In real life (which was what TFA was about) most people can't afford to "become part of the community" because they have real, actual work to do. I use at least ten applications on a very regular basis. I most certainly can't afford to "be part of the community" for all of those. In the real world, what counts is how well stuff actually works right now, not how good they could possibly become in the future if everybody would just help out. Sorry, but that's the way it is."
Well sorry but that's the way open source works. The project is responsive to it's community. If you refuse to join the community how can you expect it be responsive to you? Sorry but that's the say it is.
"TFA is about why people don't use the free stuff. That makes this comment a bit disingenious, don't you think?"
The TFA is about that, all the
"It doesn't make sense to be oblivious to real user needs and, simultaneously, to bash real users for not using specific stuff."
Who is bashing the users for not using GIMP?
"I know I'm Captain Obvious for spelling this out, but it seems to be needed."
Point to me to a few articles bashing people for not using GIMP, until then you are merely full of shit. People who don't use GIMP are the ones bashing it. This doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like then use photoshop and be happy.
"I'm not defending president Jr.'s actions in any way. But let's keep the conversation rational. He is stupid, but he isn't evil."
Define evil such that Bush does not fit the definition.
How does that saying go? The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he doesn't exist.
Since most credit cards also charge a 3% currency conversion fee you end up paying anywhere between six to ten percent more when paying with paypal.
No thanks.
"Yes, both parties love spending tax dollars... but at least the red-staters are at least a little more squeamish about it than their more lefty-socialist counterparts."
That's odd because statistically they are bigger beneficieries of the taxpayers then their more secular and educated counterparts. In fact the blue states tend to be the "donor" states and the red states are the ones with their hands out collecting "welfare" (subsidies).
It is said that on his deathbed Neils Bohr said "when I die, I am going ask god about relativity and turbulence. I think he can tell me something about relativity".
"The point is to convince the makers of certain products to create linux versions so that companies who want to can switch to linux."
IT will never happen.
"It doesn't matter if it's 5% or 50%, if the rest has no critical apps, a lot of them or don't ever plan to switch then the survey is not for them"
YEs it does matter. If you have money and energy to spend then it's better to spend your resources going after 95% of the market rather then 5% of the market.
Novell needs to spend it's time making openexchange, outlook plug ins, evolution better. Every single company in the world uses email. Why spend even a day thinking about winning over Mac shops? It will never happen.
LOL. So how was it shoved down your throat again?
"I don't think a reasonable person could come to the conclusion that I'm a moron from anything I've written here, so I'll conclude that you have a problem with either reading comprehension or basic logic. David"
You still haven't told me how you were forced to install and use GIMP.
As for your moron status other people have pointed exactly how deep your ignorance runs.
"Also, the survey lists Desktop in one of the questions so I assume it means "what do you need to move your business to Linux.""
What percentage of businesses do their own graphic work? I would say less then 5%. Even in a windows shop that does their own graphics processing the graphics shop runs macs anyway.
This survey cleary messed up.
"For a professional for whom the latter two factors are of greater importance, the "just as good as" argument isn't going to be very persuasive."
FOr a decade or more SQL server is/has-been inferior to Oracle. Everytime a flamewar flared up on usenet the MS fanboi crown always sang this tune. "It's good enough, it does what you need, you don't need those extra features, and it costs a hell of a lot less".
So there you go. Open office is not as good as MS office but it costs a hell of a lot less. It's up to your administration, CIO, CEO or whatever to actually justify paying for MS office when there is a product almost as good for free.
Some people are able to justify that, more and more people are realizing that they can't.
Before you bring up re-training and compatibility just remember your people will need to get re-trained at every upgrade of office and they will lose compatibility as well.
"Its pretty sad when its obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet its still the same thing after what, six years?"
/. does.
It seems to me that if it hasn't been changed in six years then it's not that great of a problem for most users. Open source projects tend to be driven by the users and the developers and more precisely by "contributors". In most open source projects the user contributors vastly outnumber the developer contributors. They are the ones hanging out at IRC asking and answering questions, filing bug reports and helping the developers debug the application by repeatedly installing, patching, and compiling the unstable tree.
If the majority of the contributors don't see the tabbed interface as being a priority then it won't happen.
My suggestion to all the people bitching about how GIMP sucks and how much they hate using it (why are you using it then?) is to become a part of the community. Contribute and if enough of you contribute enough then your needs will probably be taken care of too. Failing that you could always take up a collection and offer a bounty.
I think it's a little unseemly to bash people who give you something for free. If you don't like it you are under no obligation to use it. Just steal photoshop like everybody else at
"The very fact that some people are arogant enough to try to shove tools onto people that WILL NOT DO THE JOB shows why it's hard to adopt Linux on the desktop."
BHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Shoving down your throat? Did the GIMP goon squad break into your house and make you install it holding a gun to your head?
"Of course, it also doesn't help that so many Linux people seem to take the attitude that the Linux desktop is fine, but artists and other non-technical types are just too stupid to use it."
I don't know about artists but you clearly are extremely stupid. Why don't you tell all of us how GIMP was shoved down your throat again?
Photoshop in the datacenter? Clearly this survey is messed up. Chances are 15 year olds just spammed the survey and put down what they wished for the most which is a free photoshop. I guess a free GIMP isn't good enough for them and they are tired of stealing photoshop.
"But even with a half-dozen of these so far, it's still way behind ASP.NET, schedule-wise, for midsized projects."
For it makes no sense to use ASP.NET or J2EE. FOr midisze projects you are much better off with ruby on rails or django or zope.
I am still waiting for that study showing how ASP.NET is more productive though. Oh and did you change your position? Is choice good now?
The problem with ms fanbois (like you) is that you guys seem to think the application development lifecycle consists only of first beta. You guys only measure the time it takes to slap some controls on the screen, type in an SQL statement into the control and go around slapping each other on the back about how fast you built an "application". I have news for you, bound controls are a bad idea. Debugging and refactoring takes more time then development. Deployment, documentation, testing, bugfixing, enhancing etc take up the vast majority of the development lifecycle.
Until VS 2005 the fanbois didn't even have a decent build system or refactoring!. But they didn't care about that shit, they were happy slapping databound grids on their forms and calling it done.
What's there to debate? It's not like McDOnald's can afford good lawyers. All the so called "evidence" you have provided was most likely presented in court. Unless you are some sort of a genious and located something on google that the mcDonalds lawyers did not during the long time leading up to the trial and the trial itself you simply full of shit.
There is nothing to debate here. You got your panties in a wad about this because according to your opinion the water was not too hot. Well despite the best defence money could buy a legal ruling said otherwise.
The fact that you are unable to accept that shows your immaturrity and your zealotry in this regard. Zealots can't be persuaded by reason or evidence.
A corporation burned somebody, they had to pay a little money and went on their way. Deal with it. It's not like anybody at McDonalds went to jail or was held personally responsible for their actions. That's why corporations were invented. To shirk personal responsiblity.
"Excuse me if I don't put 100% faith into the courts."
YOu can put your faith in anything you like. Even though I too do not have 100% faith in the US court system I certainly have more faith in that then I do on some schmuck on slashdot who got his panties in a wad because McDonalds had to pay a little money to an old woman they burned.
"And if they are, that just makes the point I addressed elsewhere -- Java has too damn many third party frameworks "
.NET is productive then java.
.NET is more productive then webobjects or tapestry.
.NET gives you the choice of languages to program in. So what is it? Is choice bad or is choice good? The way I see it choice is good, there is no law saying you have to use all of them, pick one, learn it, use it, be happy. Better then getting some half assed bullshit being shoved down your throat by MS.
I am still waiting for you to produce some studies showing that
While you are at it you can also prove why
For a bonus you can compare the relative strenghts of netbeans, IDEA, eclipse, java studio creator etc vs VS.NET. Also discuss why windows programmers have to learn an entirely new paradign every three years or so too.
I notice that most MS fan boi types seem to detest choice. That's their number one complaint about any competing technology. At the same time though they love to trumpet about how
I think he got it messed up though. You are supposed to stop inflicting pain once somebody says the safe word.
How is more productive? Is it more productive then tapestry? Wicket? Trails?
.NET is more productive so I can pick it apart.
That's just FUD. Show some studies showing
Yes, slapping controls in a page and typing in SQL into them is more pdocutive then coding struts by hand. It's nowhere near as productive as webojects though. Not even close.