* The recruiting agent has no idea what the job is, puts in an ad that does not specify required skills, doesn't know what is in the ad itself, and they server "a very useful purpose".
They serve a most useful purpose by cut a shortlist of many down to a shortlist of 5. I have no idea about the ad in question, but the concept IT recruiters in general don't have any clues about IT is ludicrous. Do you have a clue about your job? Yes? surprisingly enough, so do they.
* You are paying managers an effective rate of $1000/day. That is an effective salary of $365,000/yr. And, yet you are too busy being an hiring manager to review resumes, preferring to leave it to the hiring agent described above. Tell me, how much are you offering to pay?
Hell no. $1000 a day is what I charge a customer for them. At least. Its salary plus lots of costs plus a hefty markup. Salary typically makes up 30-45% of a charge out rate. Having a manager reading 50 CVs costs the organisation what we could be charging them out at. Its a concept called opportunity cost.
* The agent did not specify "Mac OS/X" as a needed skill and didn't know that OS/X little more than a version of UNIX. You should have done a better job hiring a recruiting agent, one that knows how to recruit for a technical position.
I'm sure Steve Jobs agrees with you about MacOS. However my customers don't necessarily. UNIX on a CV could mean any damn thing. I needed Mac OSX.
* "You're asking me for a job, please don't tell me its my fault for not guessing when you said UNIX you meant Mac OSX". No it is your fault for not specifing in the ad that Mac OS/X was a required skill, not reading the CV, not reading the cover letter, and in general not doing your job as a hiring manager.
Dude, you go read 50 CVs, or more, 30 or 40 times a year. The hiring guy didn't read this guys CV cos it didn't make it past the very necessary filter. Who knows what the Ad actually said, but regardless, I don't owe him a job. You appear to be suggesting its my problem I didn't hire him, but it's his. He's trying to sell himself to my company, and his advertising didn't get the job done. The responsiblity is on the wanna be employee. I hired the guy who did have MacOSX on his CV. His marketing got him an interview.
You may be able to teach anyone to be a LAN tech, but will they be a good LAN tech? Probably not.
Once they have experience, quite probably they will be, if they like the work. *smile*Whereas I'm sure you were a genius from day one, but lots of other people get taught their trade and then become good at it after doing it for sometime.
Your attitude of "Anyone can be trained to do that job" is part of the problem. You pay like it is true. If that were true, you would just go out and hire anyone off the street and train them.
If that includes hiring technical college grads straight out of finishing year, then, hell, we do that all the time. We pay quite well, but thats another debate.
As it is, you don't do that. You try to hire someone that can actually do the job.
Nope, we try to hire someone who has the aptitude. And the right attitude.
On the other hand, your job as you describe it: "Give employment agent some requirement, read the CVs they send, interview the people with the nicest CV and hire the ones you like." Anyone can do that.
I read every inch of the CVs that make it to me, and we put the candidates through several interview, technical, business, we even psych test them, poor things. But sure - if two guys come out more or less the same, I will hire the one I like. Who wants to work with people you don't like so much? Its a shame, but its quite a typical response you try to make: "how dare my personality have an impact on a job hire decision!". Decision making processes are by their very nature influenced by emotion.
I'm on the real world planet. Your post appears to be suggesting not only are all recruitment agents clueless about their chosen domains, but also I am so incompetent as to not be able to see this.
Both suggestions are in my experience far from the truth, and hey - lets not forget I'm bright enough to be in a hiring position....
We put our agents through an interview process themselves - in order to become our "preferred agents", we ask them many questions, in part to determine just how much they really know about IT. Usually, not all the time, but usually, they are extremely clued up.
And to be honest, it doesn't take much nous to determine the person who claims they are a Microsoft Applications expert, but clearly doesn't know where F7 is nor what it does, is perhaps faking it.
Last time I checked, Linux was an OS, not a programming language. So I'd guess the ad you quoted wanted a C++ or shell script programmer. And hey - how come my ad is cheap for not using enough of the right words, but your two liner is wonderful? *smile* not that it was my ad anyway.
Still - I feel my earlier point holds - people in my experience are hiring candidates primarily for their personality, not their skills. I wouldn't hire someone who's CV is unclear. And yes, I subcontract the mind numbingly tedious job of filtering 50 CVs to an agent. I'm not wanting the agent to verify your skills, I will do that. I am asking them to weed out people who don't have Mac OSX. If you have Mac OSX skills, say so. if you make the assumption everyone knows Mac OSX == UNIX (which one could argue it does not) then you get filtered.
I value a new staff members written clarity, I will be reading lots of their output in the coming months. And of course, if I send you into the server room to check the UNIX box, I don't want to find you searching aimlessly for an iBook! *grin*
Agents are useless non technical people, let me talk to the Network admin or the Sysadmin. At least then I won't be forced to try and translate my tech skills backwards to managerial speak to some business and marketing graduate..
LOL... And you don't get a job? Colour me stunned.
Customers, I'm sorry to break it to you, are most always 'useless non technical people'.
You'll be needing to translate to 'managerial speak' every hour, on the hour, 40 hours a week, often in trying circumstances.
As for that 'business and marketing graduate', she just gave our company a million dollars to do this work, so I'm very sorry, but could you tolerate her at least till the cheque clears?
Lastly, neither the network admin nor sysadmin gets a say in the hiring.
From a hiring managers point of view, recruitment agents serve a very useful purpose. They are there to weed out the 'probably not right for the job' candidates. Sometimes worthy candidates will get screened, but in the main, most applicants who don't get an interview were never likely to get the job.
When you run a decent size IT shop, you will get upwards of fifty CVs, minimum. At 20 minutes a read, thats 2 working days, or at a managers effective hourly rate, lets say $2000. We can pay an agent no money down to do this work for us - they are happy to, as the right candidate will earn them 10-20% of your annual salary. Suits me, I only want to think about the top 5 candidates - thinking about only them is a reasonable investment, anyone else and I'm losing time I could be billing to a customer, for no good reason.
A lot of IT candidates feel their technical skills are the only concern when we are hiring. This is usually far from the truth. I can teach most anyone to be a LAN tech or provide second level support for a client site.
What I can't teach them is attention to detail, an ability to spell, a polite, courteous manner, a positive proactive attitude, the list goes on. Your acronym list is not necessarily what the agent is bouncing your application for, its the spelling mistakes and the poor layout, or the fact it was two days late, or that you've never stayed in a job longer than one year.
"I classify those as UNIX skills; had you spent a little time picking up the telephone receiver and actually calling me, we could have gone through the CV together, clarifying any possibly misunderstandings"
When I read that, immediately I think 'troublesome, difficult, argumentative, was unable to translate technical terms into laymans dialect'. By now I'm sure the agent made the right decision. You're asking me for a job, please don't tell me its my fault for not guessing when you said UNIX you meant Mac OSX.
My advice, FWIW, is to focus on selling your personality, not your skills. Sure you need TLAs to get the job, but I'm primarily thinking about putting your personality into my awesome team. One negative influence (a.k.a. a 'bad hire') and I'm risking the really good environment I've set up for my existing staff, not to mention my customer relationships. I'm looking for 'positive, proactive, is going to fit in really well' and you can bet I've asked the agent to weed out anyone who doesn't come across like that.
One last thing - target a big shop, Infinity Solutions are one in Christchurch, find out who does the hiring, [hint: its on their website] try calling him and asking if you can have 10 minutes of his time to talk over any possible opportunities he might have in the future. Then make him like you as a person. He's going to hire the person he's most comfortable working with, 9 times out of 10, not the person with the most acronyms.
I recall the day the US military took out the "intentional inaccuracy" from GPS. I worked for the New Zealand Government at the time, helping develop software that painted the realtime location of deep sea fishing boats onto a GIS based desktop. The inaccuracy was obvious when boats were in port - some would be depicted as in the harbour by 15 metres, others would appear to be inland by 15 metres. The day the inaccuracy was removed, they all snapped neatly into line by the wharf, just like we could see them out our window. The best part was when the users rushed in to find out what we'd done to the system!
Slashdot Mirror
Do you have a clue about your job? Yes? surprisingly enough, so do they. Hell no. $1000 a day is what I charge a customer for them. At least. Its salary plus lots of costs plus a hefty markup. Salary typically makes up 30-45% of a charge out rate. Having a manager reading 50 CVs costs the organisation what we could be charging them out at. Its a concept called opportunity cost. I'm sure Steve Jobs agrees with you about MacOS. However my customers don't necessarily. UNIX on a CV could mean any damn thing. I needed Mac OSX. Dude, you go read 50 CVs, or more, 30 or 40 times a year. The hiring guy didn't read this guys CV cos it didn't make it past the very necessary filter. Who knows what the Ad actually said, but regardless, I don't owe him a job. You appear to be suggesting its my problem I didn't hire him, but it's his. He's trying to sell himself to my company, and his advertising didn't get the job done.
The responsiblity is on the wanna be employee. I hired the guy who did have MacOSX on his CV. His marketing got him an interview.
You may be able to teach anyone to be a LAN tech, but will they be a good LAN tech? Probably not.
Once they have experience, quite probably they will be, if they like the work. *smile*Whereas I'm sure you were a genius from day one, but lots of other people get taught their trade and then become good at it after doing it for sometime.If that includes hiring technical college grads straight out of finishing year, then, hell, we do that all the time. We pay quite well, but thats another debate. Nope, we try to hire someone who has the aptitude. And the right attitude. I read every inch of the CVs that make it to me, and we put the candidates through several interview, technical, business, we even psych test them, poor things. But sure - if two guys come out more or less the same, I will hire the one I like. Who wants to work with people you don't like so much? Its a shame, but its quite a typical response you try to make: "how dare my personality have an impact on a job hire decision!".
Decision making processes are by their very nature influenced by emotion.
yep, i guess thats possible.
*grin*unlikely, but possible.
maybe the original jobless posters could learn from that too? as could you.
I'm on the real world planet. Your post appears to be suggesting not only are all recruitment agents clueless about their chosen domains, but also I am so incompetent as to not be able to see this.
Both suggestions are in my experience far from the truth, and hey - lets not forget I'm bright enough to be in a hiring position....
We put our agents through an interview process themselves - in order to become our "preferred agents", we ask them many questions, in part to determine just how much they really know about IT. Usually, not all the time, but usually, they are extremely clued up.
And to be honest, it doesn't take much nous to determine the person who claims they are a Microsoft Applications expert, but clearly doesn't know where F7 is nor what it does, is perhaps faking it.
Last time I checked, Linux was an OS, not a programming language. So I'd guess the ad you quoted wanted a C++ or shell script programmer. And hey - how come my ad is cheap for not using enough of the right words, but your two liner is wonderful? *smile* not that it was my ad anyway.
Still - I feel my earlier point holds - people in my experience are hiring candidates primarily for their personality, not their skills.
I wouldn't hire someone who's CV is unclear. And yes, I subcontract the mind numbingly tedious job of filtering 50 CVs to an agent. I'm not wanting the agent to verify your skills, I will do that. I am asking them to weed out people who don't have Mac OSX. If you have Mac OSX skills, say so. if you make the assumption everyone knows Mac OSX == UNIX (which one could argue it does not) then you get filtered.
I value a new staff members written clarity, I will be reading lots of their output in the coming months. And of course, if I send you into the server room to check the UNIX box, I don't want to find you searching aimlessly for an iBook! *grin*
Customers, I'm sorry to break it to you, are most always 'useless non technical people'.
You'll be needing to translate to 'managerial speak' every hour, on the hour, 40 hours a week, often in trying circumstances.
As for that 'business and marketing graduate', she just gave our company a million dollars to do this work, so I'm very sorry, but could you tolerate her at least till the cheque clears?
Lastly, neither the network admin nor sysadmin gets a say in the hiring.
When you run a decent size IT shop, you will get upwards of fifty CVs, minimum. At 20 minutes a read, thats 2 working days, or at a managers effective hourly rate, lets say $2000. We can pay an agent no money down to do this work for us - they are happy to, as the right candidate will earn them 10-20% of your annual salary. Suits me, I only want to think about the top 5 candidates - thinking about only them is a reasonable investment, anyone else and I'm losing time I could be billing to a customer, for no good reason.
A lot of IT candidates feel their technical skills are the only concern when we are hiring. This is usually far from the truth. I can teach most anyone to be a LAN tech or provide second level support for a client site.
What I can't teach them is attention to detail, an ability to spell, a polite, courteous manner, a positive proactive attitude, the list goes on. Your acronym list is not necessarily what the agent is bouncing your application for, its the spelling mistakes and the poor layout, or the fact it was two days late, or that you've never stayed in a job longer than one year. When I read that, immediately I think 'troublesome, difficult, argumentative, was unable to translate technical terms into laymans dialect'. By now I'm sure the agent made the right decision. You're asking me for a job, please don't tell me its my fault for not guessing when you said UNIX you meant Mac OSX.
My advice, FWIW, is to focus on selling your personality, not your skills. Sure you need TLAs to get the job, but I'm primarily thinking about putting your personality into my awesome team. One negative influence (a.k.a. a 'bad hire') and I'm risking the really good environment I've set up for my existing staff, not to mention my customer relationships. I'm looking for 'positive, proactive, is going to fit in really well' and you can bet I've asked the agent to weed out anyone who doesn't come across like that.
One last thing - target a big shop, Infinity Solutions are one in Christchurch, find out who does the hiring, [hint: its on their website] try calling him and asking if you can have 10 minutes of his time to talk over any possible opportunities he might have in the future. Then make him like you as a person. He's going to hire the person he's most comfortable working with, 9 times out of 10, not the person with the most acronyms.
I recall the day the US military took out the "intentional inaccuracy" from GPS. I worked for the New Zealand Government at the time, helping develop software that painted the realtime location of deep sea fishing boats onto a GIS based desktop. The inaccuracy was obvious when boats were in port - some would be depicted as in the harbour by 15 metres, others would appear to be inland by 15 metres. The day the inaccuracy was removed, they all snapped neatly into line by the wharf, just like we could see them out our window.
The best part was when the users rushed in to find out what we'd done to the system!
Everytime someone submits the licensing paperwork to Microsoft, someone at Microsoft must spend time (and therefore money) to process it.
:-)
Let the slashdotting begin!
"Business at the Speed of Thought" by Bill Gates devotes a lot of pages to having all business processes automated.
All slashdotting will do is help test the scalability of their systems