I've seen some discussion here about open vs proprietary standards and protocols and whether having an app that talks microsoft's language will help linux become more widespread in terms of desktop usage, and I thought I'd throw in my.02.
I've also noticed that there seems to be a lot of concern based on the recent legislation making reverse engineering more difficult and such, and it seems to me that the windows world should be infiltrated with open source projects just as much as the linux world!
I think we need a development environment and a set of class libraries which work as translators to the various APIs available. Think about it: We've got win32, mac, gtk, and qt at least. How about the be kit in the mix as well, just for fairness sake. It doesn't seem logical to me that any project can expect a signifigant success by limiting itself to just running on GTK for example... we should have some libraries which work with say, XML files to translate "I want to play a 44khz sample" to esound, ksound, win32, etc. Quoth the wise: "There is more than one way to do things," and I think the real strength lies in tying the "more than one way" into "one way to do more than one way"
I also think the *nices (or the posixes) need to get together and figure out where vital system configuration stuff is going to live, how it's going to look, and such (perhaps reevaluate the standards already in place to which multiple vendors are applying themselves differently), so that as I saw in the Helix Gnome installer screenshot "RedHat 6.1 or newer" goes away and becomes "complies to standard x.x" or we'll end up with so much fragmentation in the free world that we'll be stumbling around with a bucket on our head and other more organized efforts will just race past us with their fancy goggles.
Anyway, what this is all pointing to, is that if we're able to roll out Evolution for free to the entire computing world, then we've just beat microsoft at the embrace-and-extend game, since we're embracing all the platforms, and we're extending them with our way of doing things, which should at least mean open source, if not free (personally I'm more of a free for noncom kinda guy myself, but I don't really care)
After all, millions are running Windows and Mac, and millions actually like it too, and to ignore them simply because they paid for their operating system is to ignore the value in value added user experience, which is what I feel all the commercial desktop os's are striving to provide. Want to compile your os from scratch and write a really cool app for it? Why make me suffer because I let someone else compile my OS for me?
Anyway, I'm done ranting. It's probably all off-topic anyway:)
Actually, I think the problem with the hampsterdance thing is that it is almost next to impossible to get the little "dee-dee-doo" song to play in the background on Linux. I can LOOK AT hampsterdance.com all day long, but fact is, I want to listen to the damn thing!
Actually, Alt-F4 or alt-spacebar-c will work in all applications which pop up in a window. Plus, I can navigate all but the worst written apps EXCLUSIVELY through my keyboard in windows, and I can't say that for the mac or X.
Boring game. Played it in the past, even got the t-shirt somewhere. Had to use it until the AWE32 drivers were done enough that I didn't have to use the dos utilities to initialize the card. Did it for a year or so, roughly. Anyway, the point remains the same: DOS happens well before windows ever pops up. And, from the evidence I've seen, the relationship between the two is still the same: Windows 9x is nothing but a shell which runs on top of DOS.
On a related note, a soundcard not supported by Windows can have its DOS drivers initialize it before Win9x loads. Or a disk controller, or a CD-ROM drive attached to a legacy soundcard, or whatever. Windows will call the DOS system calls to access said devices. But why are we arguing? Who cares?
The idea, though, you see, is to wrest control of the desktop away from any one company. This way, WE, the oss community, are in control of protocols, standards, and the like. We can fully and cleanly implement things which adhere to common industry standards without having to play second-fiddle to a company implementing things that only run on their products. It's about having more options to do more tasks more ways for whatever your time:money ratio is, without being restricted by a profit making entity in charge of user experiences.
I've thought about this for awhile, and I think I've proposed it a time or two but what I think needs to happen for installing software in linux is that we need to agree to disagree. Not all distro's are gonna use the same underlying package format, because they configure their system according to whatever standard they want. So what you do is build in a system configuration abstraction layer, with standard macros representing this distribution's file paths, etc, and then you build one package format that calls the standard macros. That way, it doesn't matter where your distribution keeps things, all I'm doing is installing my software based on a set of standard macros. I can uninstall software the same way -- I know what macros I sent the stuff through to install it, I can delete through those macros just as easily.
Unfortunately, this sounds hard and I don't want to do it, and most people I've talked to about it said "You're not using RedHat? We have RPMs these days." Redsoft, Microhat, whatever.
Shogo is fun! And it has a plot! And a kick-ass soundtrack, that changes tempo and things dependent on where you are in the game. Shogo is a great game, and it will be wonderful to see it ported over to Linux. Happy day.
A solid desktop would be a nice start, though, and I think that's 6-8 months off at the very least.
Re:Here goes Katz again
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Or are you saying that you're the half of the population who isn't affected by advertising?
Hi, I'm not him, but this got me to thinking, it would make an interesting lil' survey-ish type thing, right in the middle of Slashdot, even if I was the only respondant.;)
What kind of soda did you drink today?
RC Cola - 2 cans Dr Pepper - 1 regular fountain drink
What kind of car were you in last week?
Well, last week I was in a lot of taxis, but this week I've been almost exclusively in my Yugo.
What brand name clothing do you own?
Well, I have a pair of Airwalks that I didn't pay for, a couple pairs of Levi's and the rest all comes from the Target Clearance Rack, independent of advertising.
And for the record, I make it a point to encourage sheep to not be sheep, only up until the point where it becomes pointless. And I set my mom, a never-used-a-computer-user up with a dialup connection to a local ISP. With time, patience, perseverance, and such, you can get yourself and those in your local sphere of influence pretty much off the mainstream cultural grid, and making decisions based on what it is they want, not what someone is telling them they want.
I mean, seriously - if I wanted microsoft I'd use windows 2000! And I agree - slap a Penguin on there and tell 'em what kernel or higher they need to have to use the hardware. Define Linux!
Well if it is after 1985 and when they were hired they were notified that their email could be read by anyone at anytime, then there isn't really (a) anything you can do about it and (b) any reason to have consideration for an employee receiving email with porn in it who's not cleaning up after itself.
Don't worry - anyone smart enough has it all archived and off your mail server anyway, and the rest deserve what they get:)
Why must we constantly measure our computer peckers against one another by pulling this ridiculous bullshit that would get us all laughed out of any other sane community?
Because many of us went through HELL and back to be able to do what we do with our systems - we're not the kind of people who look at 2 years learning to figure out how to really use Linux well as a waste of time. We consider that 2 years an investment in our future - because we know how things work. In our eyes, any program which tries to hide it's inner workings from us is a problem - which is precisely why we're saying "no" to Windows for servers at least.
And I think anybody needing to tweek bad enough would figure out a way to get water boiled and beans ground. I consider not knowing how to boil water to be a serious lack of ability for the average human over 10 years old, don't you?
For the record, I really like packages... I think having the ability to download and install a package easily is a really handy thing to be able to do. I'm annoyed at the fact that each package format seems to be heavily laden with distro specifics - here's what I think would be a dandy thing to do:
[ GNU PACKAGE MANAGER ] - [ SYSTEM FILE TRANSLATION LAYER ] - [ ACTUAL SYSTEM FILES/DIRECTORIES ]
Now each package contains a file which references MACROS... the macros being configurable things we can expect on any GNUPM system. The translation layer, which is accessible to the package manager, deals with how all the macros translate into the real details of the operating system. The translation layer could easily consist of a bunch of scripts, which deal with things like updating library paths and suchlike.
Why would this be handy? Well, first of all, it would be a project by a bunch of people rather than a specific distribution. This would be a fine thing in and of itself. Second, it would be by its very nature designed to hook into any operating system. Third, you could build any kind of front end for it you wished; and fourth, the init file structure and the binary location structure and the everything else structure you've come to know and love remains consistent - merely you now have a mechanism for automatically installing software.
I could see each of the distros jumping on the bandwagon as well since it would help unite the community in making all distros handle packages in the same way relative to their own structure
Someone asked for a "Why Slackware" type advocacy thing, and here's my lame and feeble attempt at such a thing.
Let me begin saying that in 1996 I first started messing with Linux based on a couple of books, an unleased book and Linux Configuration and Installation. LC&I was written by Pat Volkerding, the creator of Slackware, and at that time at least Slack was the predominant Linux distribution.
The case to be made for Slack is quite simple really - once you learn where stuff is, you know where to find stuff. It's the old Windows versus Linux argument all over again - with Slack I can fix my system when it breaks, because I've gone through enough Pain And Suffering (tm) learning about it to know where stuff goes. Now I can make my system sit up and beg. I pity the po' fools who get themselves a copy of redhat to "mess with linux" and end up using Windows a week after because they were unable to accomplish anything with their new OS.
The case to be made for using Slack is the case to be made for using Linux.
May I humbly suggest that the systems you mention are no longer the defacto standards? I'm all for any system which lets me tab and alt-tab through the day and let's me alt-whatever any underlined action. I think windows did a fairly nifty job of implementing a consistent set of hotkeys - OS/2 did a better job - you could minimize and move windows with ALT-FKey combos... but to think of emacs, vi, and wordstar as the be all end all hotkey references is not neccessarily the best way o' thinkin', I think (but, if those hotkeys came into being as the defactos for modern GUIs, I would learn them. I'm not picky - I just like to be able to use my keyboard for ANYTHING.)
Slashdot Mirror
I've seen some discussion here about open vs proprietary standards and protocols and whether having an app that talks microsoft's language will help linux become more widespread in terms of desktop usage, and I thought I'd throw in my .02.
:)
I've also noticed that there seems to be a lot of concern based on the recent legislation making reverse engineering more difficult and such, and it seems to me that the windows world should be infiltrated with open source projects just as much as the linux world!
I think we need a development environment and a set of class libraries which work as translators to the various APIs available. Think about it: We've got win32, mac, gtk, and qt at least. How about the be kit in the mix as well, just for fairness sake. It doesn't seem logical to me that any project can expect a signifigant success by limiting itself to just running on GTK for example... we should have some libraries which work with say, XML files to translate "I want to play a 44khz sample" to esound, ksound, win32, etc. Quoth the wise: "There is more than one way to do things," and I think the real strength lies in tying the "more than one way" into "one way to do more than one way"
I also think the *nices (or the posixes) need to get together and figure out where vital system configuration stuff is going to live, how it's going to look, and such (perhaps reevaluate the standards already in place to which multiple vendors are applying themselves differently), so that as I saw in the Helix Gnome installer screenshot "RedHat 6.1 or newer" goes away and becomes "complies to standard x.x" or we'll end up with so much fragmentation in the free world that we'll be stumbling around with a bucket on our head and other more organized efforts will just race past us with their fancy goggles.
Anyway, what this is all pointing to, is that if we're able to roll out Evolution for free to the entire computing world, then we've just beat microsoft at the embrace-and-extend game, since we're embracing all the platforms, and we're extending them with our way of doing things, which should at least mean open source, if not free (personally I'm more of a free for noncom kinda guy myself, but I don't really care)
After all, millions are running Windows and Mac, and millions actually like it too, and to ignore them simply because they paid for their operating system is to ignore the value in value added user experience, which is what I feel all the commercial desktop os's are striving to provide. Want to compile your os from scratch and write a really cool app for it? Why make me suffer because I let someone else compile my OS for me?
Anyway, I'm done ranting. It's probably all off-topic anyway
Actually, I think the problem with the hampsterdance thing is that it is almost next to impossible to get the little "dee-dee-doo" song to play in the background on Linux. I can LOOK AT hampsterdance.com all day long, but fact is, I want to listen to the damn thing!
Actually, Alt-F4 or alt-spacebar-c will work in all applications which pop up in a window. Plus, I can navigate all but the worst written apps EXCLUSIVELY through my keyboard in windows, and I can't say that for the mac or X.
On a related note, a soundcard not supported by Windows can have its DOS drivers initialize it before Win9x loads. Or a disk controller, or a CD-ROM drive attached to a legacy soundcard, or whatever. Windows will call the DOS system calls to access said devices. But why are we arguing? Who cares?
The idea, though, you see, is to wrest control of the desktop away from any one company. This way, WE, the oss community, are in control of protocols, standards, and the like. We can fully and cleanly implement things which adhere to common industry standards without having to play second-fiddle to a company implementing things that only run on their products. It's about having more options to do more tasks more ways for whatever your time:money ratio is, without being restricted by a profit making entity in charge of user experiences.
Unfortunately, this sounds hard and I don't want to do it, and most people I've talked to about it said "You're not using RedHat? We have RPMs these days." Redsoft, Microhat, whatever.
Shogo is fun! And it has a plot! And a kick-ass soundtrack, that changes tempo and things dependent on where you are in the game. Shogo is a great game, and it will be wonderful to see it ported over to Linux. Happy day.
A solid desktop would be a nice start, though, and I think that's 6-8 months off at the very least.
Hi, I'm not him, but this got me to thinking, it would make an interesting lil' survey-ish type thing, right in the middle of Slashdot, even if I was the only respondant. ;)
What kind of soda did you drink today?
RC Cola - 2 cans Dr Pepper - 1 regular fountain drink
What kind of car were you in last week?
Well, last week I was in a lot of taxis, but this week I've been almost exclusively in my Yugo.
What brand name clothing do you own?
Well, I have a pair of Airwalks that I didn't pay for, a couple pairs of Levi's and the rest all comes from the Target Clearance Rack, independent of advertising.
And for the record, I make it a point to encourage sheep to not be sheep, only up until the point where it becomes pointless. And I set my mom, a never-used-a-computer-user up with a dialup connection to a local ISP. With time, patience, perseverance, and such, you can get yourself and those in your local sphere of influence pretty much off the mainstream cultural grid, and making decisions based on what it is they want, not what someone is telling them they want.
I mean, seriously - if I wanted microsoft I'd use windows 2000! And I agree - slap a Penguin on there and tell 'em what kernel or higher they need to have to use the hardware. Define Linux!
Well if it is after 1985 and when they were hired they were notified that their email could be read by anyone at anytime, then there isn't really (a) anything you can do about it and (b) any reason to have consideration for an employee receiving email with porn in it who's not cleaning up after itself.
:)
Don't worry - anyone smart enough has it all archived and off your mail server anyway, and the rest deserve what they get
We've all got things we're working on I betcha, but I'm gonna at least draft a spec. Check my site for more information (www.psychodeli.com)
:)
I'm gonna go work on that right now
Why must we constantly measure our computer peckers against one another by pulling this ridiculous bullshit that would get us all laughed out of any other sane community?
Because many of us went through HELL and back to be able to do what we do with our systems - we're not the kind of people who look at 2 years learning to figure out how to really use Linux well as a waste of time. We consider that 2 years an investment in our future - because we know how things work. In our eyes, any program which tries to hide it's inner workings from us is a problem - which is precisely why we're saying "no" to Windows for servers at least.
And I think anybody needing to tweek bad enough would figure out a way to get water boiled and beans ground. I consider not knowing how to boil water to be a serious lack of ability for the average human over 10 years old, don't you?
Blink.
For the record, I really like packages... I think having the ability to download and install a package easily is a really handy thing to be able to do. I'm annoyed at the fact that each package format seems to be heavily laden with distro specifics - here's what I think would be a dandy thing to do:
[ GNU PACKAGE MANAGER ]
- [ SYSTEM FILE TRANSLATION LAYER ]
- [ ACTUAL SYSTEM FILES/DIRECTORIES ]
Now each package contains a file which references MACROS... the macros being configurable things we can expect on any GNUPM system. The translation layer, which is accessible to the package manager, deals with how all the macros translate into the real details of the operating system. The translation layer could easily consist of a bunch of scripts, which deal with things like updating library paths and suchlike.
Why would this be handy? Well, first of all, it would be a project by a bunch of people rather than a specific distribution. This would be a fine thing in and of itself. Second, it would be by its very nature designed to hook into any operating system. Third, you could build any kind of front end for it you wished; and fourth, the init file structure and the binary location structure and the everything else structure you've come to know and love remains consistent - merely you now have a mechanism for automatically installing software.
I could see each of the distros jumping on the bandwagon as well since it would help unite the community in making all distros handle packages in the same way relative to their own structure
Someone asked for a "Why Slackware" type advocacy thing, and here's my lame and feeble attempt at such a thing.
Let me begin saying that in 1996 I first started messing with Linux based on a couple of books, an unleased book and Linux Configuration and Installation. LC&I was written by Pat Volkerding, the creator of Slackware, and at that time at least Slack was the predominant Linux distribution.
The case to be made for Slack is quite simple really - once you learn where stuff is, you know where to find stuff. It's the old Windows versus Linux argument all over again - with Slack I can fix my system when it breaks, because I've gone through enough Pain And Suffering (tm) learning about it to know where stuff goes. Now I can make my system sit up and beg. I pity the po' fools who get themselves a copy of redhat to "mess with linux" and end up using Windows a week after because they were unable to accomplish anything with their new OS.
The case to be made for using Slack is the case to be made for using Linux.
May I humbly suggest that the systems you mention are no longer the defacto standards? I'm all for any system which lets me tab and alt-tab through the day and let's me alt-whatever any underlined action. I think windows did a fairly nifty job of implementing a consistent set of hotkeys - OS/2 did a better job - you could minimize and move windows with ALT-FKey combos... but to think of emacs, vi, and wordstar as the be all end all hotkey references is not neccessarily the best way o' thinkin', I think (but, if those hotkeys came into being as the defactos for modern GUIs, I would learn them. I'm not picky - I just like to be able to use my keyboard for ANYTHING.)