While not exactly the same thing, the Google Web Toolkit (GWT) lets you write your code in Java and then run it in the browser. The difference is that the GWT translates the Java into JavaScript instead of giving you a full JVM. I'm not sure what practical advantage having a full JVM gives you.
Yeah, OK. Apple removed all of the Flash elements from their website and it still looks just as "Flashy" (not to mention that Flash doesn't work on the iPhone). Go crawl back under that rock from which you came. Oh, and I know WTF an RIA is - you can make kick-ass RIAs using XHTML + CSS + JavaScript (how do you think Gmail works?). I will concede that video (and audio to a certain extent) is still the realm of Flash, at least for now. Did you miss the part where I said you could do "almost everything people use Flash for" using this technique? Oh, and we test our websites in 25 OS/browser combinations and apply the concept of graceful degradation. Remind me why I'm replying to an AC who obviously doesn't now WTF he's talking about?
We're not perfect by any measure, but we certainly give quite a bit of consideration to graceful degradation and accessibility. For example, we typically implement slideshow functionality as a definition list (dt is the image, dd is the description of the image) so a screen reader would be able to "see" all of the images (well, technically the images' alt attributes) and descriptions at once. This is because a timed slideshow makes no sense in the context of a screen reader.
This seems to be universal among web designers. They just aren't happy unless they're redesigning something to make it more complicated and less likely to work.
Hey, don't lump all web designers together. At our studio our focus is on standards-based design - valid XHTML combined with CSS for design and unobtrusive JavaScript (via jQuery) for behavior. We avoid Flash at all costs, not because we can't use it, but because it's non-standard and almost everything people use Flash for can be done using XHTML + CSS + JavaScript if you know what you're doing. Many design shops use the tools in the Adobe (formerly Macromedia) suite because it's "easier." That's partly why there are so many crappy web sites - most web designers don't really know how to design for the web. They get tools handed to them that "ease" the transition from print design and now they think they're web designers.
I honestly think a better analogy would be a chat room where you are permanently logged in.
An even better analog is that Twitter is like a car. You're driving in a "lane" and other drivers decide to follow you - until they get mad that you're driving 50mph in the fast lane and pass you on the right while flipping you off. That's what Twitter is like, sort-of.
Doing a course on design patterns last semester we were directed to the Head First Design Pattern books. I refused to open it as a matter of principle so I can't vouch for the quality. It's just impossible to concentrate with all that noise on the page.
I used the HFDP book to teach a class on design patterns and it was a great resource. I'd recommend it over a dry text book any day. My take is that most people who dismiss the HF books are intellectual snobs who think if learning isn't painful it means you're not learning. The HF books are based on solid learning principles and, IMHO, they work.
If you haven't seen the documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car? then I highly recommend you check it out. It explores the roles of automobile manufacturers, the oil industry, the US government, batteries, hydrogen vehicles, and consumers in limiting the development and adoption of the electric car.
Can you tell me a little bit more about your experience with eeeXubuntu? Does everything work? How hard was it to install and configure? Did you blow away the existing OS or install it to another drive? How easy is it to upgrade/patch? I'm considering getting an Eee PC when the 8.9" version comes out but I'm not crazy about the built-in Xandros OS. I was considering FreeBSD or PCBSD but it looks like there aren't drivers yet for all of the hardware so eeeXubuntu looks like the best bet.
Php has its place, and it's easy to develop in, but if you can do everything you ever need to do in php, you have pretty simple needs.
I don't claim to be able to do everything I ever need to do in PHP - washing the dishes certainly requires other tools. But seriously, when it comes to building web applications there aren't many web applications that can't be built in PHP. Just because you can doesn't mean you should so obviously you should pick the right tool for the job at hand. Even with that said PHP is a serious contender as a good tool choice for many web applications. Keep in mind that my original post was talking PHP + Zend Framework which brings to PHP quite a number of very useful library components. Can you give me some examples of types of web applications that PHP would not be a good choice for and why? I can certainly think of a few but I'm interested to hear what you come up with.
I tried looking something up about zend, but I can't seem to find any docs or tutorials on the zend website that would give me some idea of how they handle application logic.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here but it sounds like you're trying to figure out how to use Zend Framework MVC. If that's the case then check out the Zend Controller Quick Start. That will help you figure out the View and Controller aspects of MVC in Zend Framework. However, you may want to wait a bit until it's been updated with all the goodies in 1.5 like Zend_Layout. If you're trying to figure out how to create Models then that's a little harder because Zend Framework doesn't dictate what you're Model should look like. However, in many applications it will be Zend_Db.
MySQL supports clustering. Why are you limiting your database to run on a single server?
I am a fan and a user of MySQL (see my username). I am not an expert on tuning MySQL but my understanding is that it is very fast at reads and not as great at writes. The original author brought up contention issues a couple of times. MySQL clustering will help you with reads, but not so much with write contentions. My guess is this is what the original author was referring to and why he was trying to throw more hardware at the problem. His applications are probably very write heavy and so MySQL clustering doesn't buy him much. Someone who knows more about MySQL tuning please correct me if I'm wrong about the fact that MySQL clustering helps with reads, but not as much with writes.
Why? Sure, it featured neat embedding in HTML before there were Python or Ruby templating engines that used Python or Ruby in HTML, but why would it be preferred now, for a new, ground-up web application, besides familiarity to the developer? (I'm not trying to be argumentative, just looking for perspectives on "why PHP?")
A few of the reasons:
proven scalability (Wikipedia, Yahoo!) - this is partly due to the "share nothing architecture"
great frameworks available (Zend Framework, CakePHP, Symfony)
lots of developers (and on the flip side, lots of jobs) - you could argue this is related to "familiarity to the developer" but from a practical point-of-view it is important
Technically you're talking about the available functions, not the "language" itself. But, semantics aside, I would argue that your complaint is being addressed. The Zend Framework I linked to and the SPL are PHP class libraries that you can use if you would prefer to work with PHP in OO way and (for the most part) forget about calling PHP functions outside of a class or object context.
I'm converting a PHP project slowly...I averaged beating my PHP estimate by 1/3rd
Perhaps you learned something the first time you solved the problem which helps you solve the same problem quicker the second time? Perhaps if you redid the project in PHP (I know this would be pointless, but for sake of argument) it would be just as fast as in Python?
Not being aware of the general criticisms of their chosen tools is another. (Which, if you're not a troll, you've proven my point.)
I'm not a troll, just wondering why there's so much bashing of PHP on Slashdot. I am aware of many of the criticisms of PHP. One of them you mentioned:
However, one of the biggest complaints about PHP programmers is that they're oblivious to a lot of important aspects of programing.
You'll see that I partly addressed that criticism with my "Zend is working hard to increase the level of professionalism of the PHP community" statement. I'm not going to go into a full length defense of PHP but if you are looking for such a defense I would suggest 10 PHP Myths Dispelled. I am not a PHP zealot, I just have a lot of experience with it and would prefer to build web applications using PHP over the alternatives that I've tried (Java/JSP, ASP.NET). I can't compare it to RoR or Python since I have tried neither. I've read about both and have seen nothing compelling to make me consider switching. I'm quite productive developing in PHP and am quite aware of both it's advantages and criticisms.
What's up with all the PHP haters on Slashdot? For building most web applications it's the place to be. Zend is working hard to increase the level of professionalism of the PHP community. I've recently started using Zend Framework and it's a really nice way to build web applications.
I am a small business owner and we use Junction Networks for our telephone system. Their services are standards based (e.g. SIP federation) and don't have stupid limitations like Vonage (who charge per line instead of just usage) or Skype (who don't federate with other SIP providers). The hosted PBX is pretty nice or you can use IAX trunking if you prefer to run your own Asterisk PBX. I am not affiliated with them - just a happy customer. If you're a small business I recommend you check them out.
Slashdot Mirror
While not exactly the same thing, the Google Web Toolkit (GWT) lets you write your code in Java and then run it in the browser. The difference is that the GWT translates the Java into JavaScript instead of giving you a full JVM. I'm not sure what practical advantage having a full JVM gives you.
Excellent, thanks for clearing that up for me!
Yeah, OK. Apple removed all of the Flash elements from their website and it still looks just as "Flashy" (not to mention that Flash doesn't work on the iPhone). Go crawl back under that rock from which you came. Oh, and I know WTF an RIA is - you can make kick-ass RIAs using XHTML + CSS + JavaScript (how do you think Gmail works?). I will concede that video (and audio to a certain extent) is still the realm of Flash, at least for now. Did you miss the part where I said you could do "almost everything people use Flash for" using this technique? Oh, and we test our websites in 25 OS/browser combinations and apply the concept of graceful degradation. Remind me why I'm replying to an AC who obviously doesn't now WTF he's talking about?
We're not perfect by any measure, but we certainly give quite a bit of consideration to graceful degradation and accessibility. For example, we typically implement slideshow functionality as a definition list (dt is the image, dd is the description of the image) so a screen reader would be able to "see" all of the images (well, technically the images' alt attributes) and descriptions at once. This is because a timed slideshow makes no sense in the context of a screen reader.
Hey, don't lump all web designers together. At our studio our focus is on standards-based design - valid XHTML combined with CSS for design and unobtrusive JavaScript (via jQuery) for behavior. We avoid Flash at all costs, not because we can't use it, but because it's non-standard and almost everything people use Flash for can be done using XHTML + CSS + JavaScript if you know what you're doing. Many design shops use the tools in the Adobe (formerly Macromedia) suite because it's "easier." That's partly why there are so many crappy web sites - most web designers don't really know how to design for the web. They get tools handed to them that "ease" the transition from print design and now they think they're web designers.
Yes, but it met the Slashdot requirement of being a car analogy.
An even better analog is that Twitter is like a car. You're driving in a "lane" and other drivers decide to follow you - until they get mad that you're driving 50mph in the fast lane and pass you on the right while flipping you off. That's what Twitter is like, sort-of.
I used the HFDP book to teach a class on design patterns and it was a great resource. I'd recommend it over a dry text book any day. My take is that most people who dismiss the HF books are intellectual snobs who think if learning isn't painful it means you're not learning. The HF books are based on solid learning principles and, IMHO, they work.
Sorry, just couldn't resist responding based on the title of your comment.
;-)
Nothing more to say, carry on
hint: read my slashdot username
Then could you please contact the film maker and ask them to send me my check? Thanks.
Did you ever consider the possibility that it's simply a good movie and when the topic comes up, people think to mention it?
If you haven't seen the documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car? then I highly recommend you check it out. It explores the roles of automobile manufacturers, the oil industry, the US government, batteries, hydrogen vehicles, and consumers in limiting the development and adoption of the electric car.
Can you tell me a little bit more about your experience with eeeXubuntu? Does everything work? How hard was it to install and configure? Did you blow away the existing OS or install it to another drive? How easy is it to upgrade/patch? I'm considering getting an Eee PC when the 8.9" version comes out but I'm not crazy about the built-in Xandros OS. I was considering FreeBSD or PCBSD but it looks like there aren't drivers yet for all of the hardware so eeeXubuntu looks like the best bet.
I don't claim to be able to do everything I ever need to do in PHP - washing the dishes certainly requires other tools. But seriously, when it comes to building web applications there aren't many web applications that can't be built in PHP. Just because you can doesn't mean you should so obviously you should pick the right tool for the job at hand. Even with that said PHP is a serious contender as a good tool choice for many web applications. Keep in mind that my original post was talking PHP + Zend Framework which brings to PHP quite a number of very useful library components. Can you give me some examples of types of web applications that PHP would not be a good choice for and why? I can certainly think of a few but I'm interested to hear what you come up with.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here but it sounds like you're trying to figure out how to use Zend Framework MVC. If that's the case then check out the Zend Controller Quick Start. That will help you figure out the View and Controller aspects of MVC in Zend Framework. However, you may want to wait a bit until it's been updated with all the goodies in 1.5 like Zend_Layout. If you're trying to figure out how to create Models then that's a little harder because Zend Framework doesn't dictate what you're Model should look like. However, in many applications it will be Zend_Db.
PHP + Zend Framework - seriously
Obama could use the Nader upgrade: Obama-Nader '08
If you're using Zend Framework then Zend_Layout gives you an implementation of the Two Step View pattern which sounds like what you're looking for.
OK, was I the only one who had to do a diff to spot it?
I am a fan and a user of MySQL (see my username). I am not an expert on tuning MySQL but my understanding is that it is very fast at reads and not as great at writes. The original author brought up contention issues a couple of times. MySQL clustering will help you with reads, but not so much with write contentions. My guess is this is what the original author was referring to and why he was trying to throw more hardware at the problem. His applications are probably very write heavy and so MySQL clustering doesn't buy him much. Someone who knows more about MySQL tuning please correct me if I'm wrong about the fact that MySQL clustering helps with reads, but not as much with writes.
A few of the reasons:
Technically you're talking about the available functions, not the "language" itself. But, semantics aside, I would argue that your complaint is being addressed. The Zend Framework I linked to and the SPL are PHP class libraries that you can use if you would prefer to work with PHP in OO way and (for the most part) forget about calling PHP functions outside of a class or object context.
Perhaps you learned something the first time you solved the problem which helps you solve the same problem quicker the second time? Perhaps if you redid the project in PHP (I know this would be pointless, but for sake of argument) it would be just as fast as in Python?
I'm not a troll, just wondering why there's so much bashing of PHP on Slashdot. I am aware of many of the criticisms of PHP. One of them you mentioned:
You'll see that I partly addressed that criticism with my "Zend is working hard to increase the level of professionalism of the PHP community" statement. I'm not going to go into a full length defense of PHP but if you are looking for such a defense I would suggest 10 PHP Myths Dispelled. I am not a PHP zealot, I just have a lot of experience with it and would prefer to build web applications using PHP over the alternatives that I've tried (Java/JSP, ASP.NET). I can't compare it to RoR or Python since I have tried neither. I've read about both and have seen nothing compelling to make me consider switching. I'm quite productive developing in PHP and am quite aware of both it's advantages and criticisms.
What's up with all the PHP haters on Slashdot? For building most web applications it's the place to be. Zend is working hard to increase the level of professionalism of the PHP community. I've recently started using Zend Framework and it's a really nice way to build web applications.
I am a small business owner and we use Junction Networks for our telephone system. Their services are standards based (e.g. SIP federation) and don't have stupid limitations like Vonage (who charge per line instead of just usage) or Skype (who don't federate with other SIP providers). The hosted PBX is pretty nice or you can use IAX trunking if you prefer to run your own Asterisk PBX. I am not affiliated with them - just a happy customer. If you're a small business I recommend you check them out.