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100-Year-Old Electric Car Design Makes a Comeback
CNet's Green Tech Blog is reporting that Detroit Electric plans to release a small number of cars based around a car designed nearly 100 years ago. Detroit Electric is a joint venture between Santa Rosa, CA-based electric transportation specialist, Zap and China's Youngman motors. "Back in 1917, a Detroit Electric cost anywhere from $1,775 to $2,375--in other words, fit for the proletarian or plutocrat. The cars could go 65 miles to 100 miles on a battery charge, but only go at speeds ranging from 6 miles per hour to 25 mph."
I assume they're just using the aesthetics of the old car. But I didn't RTFA.
In the essay "Calvary in the Age of the Autarch" (collected in Castle of Days ) Gene Wolfe explains why in his far-future science-fiction epic The Book of the New Sun he had battles fought on horseback with some kind of genetically modified horse. They reproduce for you, they don't break down as stubbornly as machines (and can be used as dog chow), and they can graze instead of needing processed petrochemicals. I find that an intriguing notion, and I wonder when genetic engineering will get to the point that we can create new species to order.
Who Killed the Electric car??
Answer:
The great depression!
This was my Father's era and he was a "prole". Working as a logger he earned somewhere around $200-300/year. The earliest data for per capita income I could find was 1929 here:
http://www.census.gov/statab/hist/HS-33.pdf/but even then it was ~$700/year.
So how does a car that cost 3-4 years salary qualify as being "fit for the proletariotarian"?
In today's terms that car would cost ~$120,000!
Aside from a announcing a publicity stunt by a company cashing in on a green fad in visible and public low-carbonism (believe me the replica cars will *not* be for the proles!) this article is shamefully low on any actual news or facts.
Just a bit of hype.
Laborare Est Orare
If you haven't seen the documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car? then I highly recommend you check it out. It explores the roles of automobile manufacturers, the oil industry, the US government, batteries, hydrogen vehicles, and consumers in limiting the development and adoption of the electric car.
Bradley Holt
Maybe, the electric car is making a comeback... but it's making a very, very, very slooooooooooooow comeback.
Is it just me or is it tricky to tell if the car behind them in the photo is facing left or right - kinda looks the same both ways.
While the geek in me thinks this is kinda cool in a retro way - they thing will never pass modern safety tests or even corner at speed, so I'm guessing they are just using the brand name. Right? (Please tell me I'm right).
Lets hope this is the start of a new phase of electric vehicles, hydrogen cars just seem plain crazy to me. That is unless you are a car exec at which point they make perfect sense: maintenance, parts, control over the fuel source, engines need constant service and exchange of filters and so on.
http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
Can I still buy this car?
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.
Is like the equivalent of around $50k today, easily. Fords were selling for in the $250 range IIRC... So I think it is optimistic to say it was an 'affordable' vehicle.
Basically sounds like about the equivalent of a golf cart with a big battery load. Back then something like that would have been pretty cool, and 25MPH was about top speed on the roads of that day anyhow.
It is cute, but technologically? Not that interesting, lol.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
It should have only taken 90 years, tops. :)
Seriously, this is good news. Now if only Detroit would take non-petroleum vehicles seriously and make them, rather than giving lip-service saying that's what they want to do.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
The new company also has some new designs like the ZAP Alias(TM) a tricycle electric "car" shown in their photo album
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
The Zap electric scooters and skateboards are much less annoying than the gas-powered, noise-polluting versions. Also, I am given to understand that the Sparrow 3-wheeled EV is making a comeback.
Militant Agnostic: "I don't know, and damn it, neither do you!"
I'm not too hopeful at the moment, myself. Here is a review of a Zap vehicle produced in China (actually, a Chinese vehicle with a Zap badge):
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/reviews/2008-zap-xebra-review/
FTFA: ... (and not a drunkard, scalawag or reprobate among them!)
Sort of like an early version of Slashdot!
Personally I'm very skeptical about this... Zap is know for vaporware. Anyone else remember when they were supposedly going to be bringing the "Smart" cars stateside and Daimler Chrysler (smart's owners) was all like WTF no they aren't?
Probably another pump and dump so their exec's can make another quick buck.
I'd buy anything in the same price range and with similar atributes as my current car in order to get off of gas and onto an alternative energy source. I think the time is long past due to flood our scientific community with federal funds in order to create affordable alternatives to gas, which pollutes, is non-renewable and lines pockets of oil barons.
They go anywhere from 5-35mph depending on the weather and the engine equipped, they run on any type of food and they can cost less than $20. They bicycle has been around for a long time and needs to be taken seriously as a method of locomotion.
Plugins, hybrids, fuel cells, and so on... Each of these technologies has use cases for which it can excel, each has a place in our economy in the coming years. What I don't understand is why we need to even talk about an electric car design from 100 years ago. Since that little car was made there have been phenomenal advances in materials, magnetic motors, batteries and controls - anything designed today will be vastly superior to the car of 100 years ago. The ONLY bit of design I can see that is of even marginal interest is a quaint, retro look. Mike.
I saw it on The Lone Gunmen, and since they were right about 9/11 they must be right about Water Powers Cars too.
Part of the hardcore faithful who believed in Apple long before it was cool again to do so
$2,375 in 1917 has the same buying power as $38,600 in 2008.
A proletarian, i.e. one of the poorest class of people, can afford a $39,000 car?
The 2009 Phoenix SUV has a purchase price of $54,000, and has the following stats.
0-60 m.p.h.: Less than 10 seconds
Factory Set Top Speed: 95 m.p.h.
Range: 100+ miles per charge
Charging Time:
On-Board Vehicle 6.6KW Charger: 5 to 6 hours
Off-Board High-Power 250KW Charger: Under 10 min. to 95% SOC
http://www.austintxgensoc.org/calculatecpi.php
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/why-choose-phoenix/roi-calculator.php
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/vehicles/suv-specifications.php
used in Italy by many elderly since a license is not required. Also used as a "city" car since they are small and esy to park and the city traffic is so jammed that the speed is not that much of an issue:o)
The consumer price index says that $1,775 is about $30k today, a reasonable cost for a low-mid end car new -- try it here: http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/data/us/calc/
But you are right that $700/year was the average annual income back in the 20s. On the other hand, the average annual income today is $26k, so things do work out roughly (i.e., the car is still a larger-than-unity fraction of a year's income.) I think the distinction here needed is not average income, but average income per household (today that is more like $48k.) Of course, there's the mean/median/mode distinction as well, but this isn't a statistics class so I'll spare us all.
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Using this calculator, the car would be between $29897.66 and $40,003,01.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
NICE looking vehicle. Slow, but hey - it beats the fuck out of shlepping some gus guzzling death monster three blocks to pick ip a six pack and a pack of smokes... I'd drive what Leno's got. It looks like it could deal with some dodgey street conditions as well - and that'll be important because peak oil == peak asphalt. Sure: take your hydrogen powered Ferrari - it's not going to get very far when streets are dusty scrub-board horse tracks. Cars in 50 years will be lightweight with a high clearance, relatively narrow large wheels (think seriously heavy duty bike tires), and slow. And THAT'S if you actually own a car.
Most people won't - too expensive and not enough of a need.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Seriously, horses are a Really Bad Idea for general transportation. The reason they were abandoned for that purpose has far less to do with speed and far more to do with cost in money and cost in time to maintain horses, which is essentially what you said. Also, you need different breeds of horses for different types of work. You wouldn't use a shire horse for rapid transit, a dartmoor pony for heavy loads, or a modern racehorse for farming. That makes any kind of genetic engineering hard, as you now have to solve the problem potentially once for every breed, depending on the genetic distance between them.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Apparently in the mid to late 1910s there were a number of these on the market. Jay Leno owns a similarly balla-ass car, a 1915 Baker Electric with a drivetrain was designed by George Westinghouse himself.
Airplane Photos, Airline News, Planespotting Guides
The disasterous city-to-city races (in which driver and spectator fatalities tended to be high) showed what safety these cars had at any speed. In the Brighton historic run (cars later than 1906 not permitted), roughly 2/3rds of the cars finish a very gruelling race, which shows that reliability was respectable for the day but not at the level of modern cars. Borrowing ideas from the engine seems reasonable enough, but it would need to be heavily modernised.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The point of the movie is that the electric cars were never for sale, and even though the middle-income consumers who leased the cars thought they were fantastic, nobody was ever allowed to buy one . This was true even though the people who leased the cars absolutely loved them.
After the federal government sued the state of California to stop the mandating of zero emission vehicles, the cars were repossesed by the manufacturers and sent off to the crushers, even though the people who leased them were desperate to buy the cars and were holding vigils outside the lots where the cars were held, trying to get the manufacturers to sell the cars to them.
The cars were quiet, very well made, reliable, and very easy to fix (electric motors are very simple to work on) with no timing chains, dirty oil-covered parts, etc.
Since the average commute is only 20 miles, the 60-mile range of these cars was more than enough to go to work and back and get some groceries. The dealerships did not like to sell the cars because these cars did not need a lot of expensive maintenance (since they were mechanically so much simpler).
The movie showed that the auto companies were willing not to sell the cars and just throw them away, giving up millions in revenue, just so they could say that no one bought one. And so commenters like you can claim that very few people wanted one in the first place. Watch the movie, you'll be surprised.
No one will be able to live at 50 MPH! You won't be able to breathe at that speed. Best that they limit it to 25 MPH. If (insert favorite deity here) had meant for humans to go that fast, (deity) would have given them wings!
Unlike most hybrids, the Volt only has an electric motor. However it also has an internal gasoline generator for additonal range and power. And it is designed to charge from electric grid. It has the 250+ mile per-charge range most car dealers feel is necessary to be commercial.
GM usually has lots of "concept" cars. But I wondered if they humbled by Japanese hybrid success.
Which must have made stopping, er, interesting.
To be honest, I don't know if it's true either.
But one thing that kind of surprized my back when is that the patent to the tech is bought up by Chevron, who will not license it for cell sizes larger than D, or for specialized use in vehicles. You could still assemble large quantities of D cells into a single battery (which is what Prius does), but that's much more expensive and much less efficient.
Some states now are giving up their fleets of plug-ins because they cannot legally get replacement batteries...
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
This may have been pure coincidence, with two teams of engineers finding the same solution to the same problem, but the design of the Prius virtua "transmission" is similar to that of the 1911 Woods Dual Power Couple, an early hybrid.
I've got a better idea: make a great electric car for the present day.
This 100 year-old gimmic car is a waste of time and energy. If they really want to get noticed, show us a car of the future, not the past.
And also, so what these companies are telling us is: our products are based on 100 year-old technologies? Yeah, I want to buy a car from those people.
Health Insurance Quotes
More German troops froze to death and were killed by disease than were killed by bullets. They were riding on horses because Germany was having a hell of a time supplying them and they were getting their asses kicked by the Allies.
Let's move to the ecological paradise or the early 19th century, people in Europe and America weren't dying too much of disease and cold (at least if you could get clean water.) You were just walking though mud and horse shit up to you knees, or dying of cancer at 40 from a atmosphere constantly polluted by wood and coal smoke.
I'll take our media cluster-fuck-slash-ecological apocalypse anytime.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Circa 1900, Ferry Porsche developed what has been regarded as the world's first hybrid car. See: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/11/09/070253.html. The issues with Diesel are the glow plugs have to be used in colder weather starts when the combustion chamber cools for a longer period (requires more energy) and the torque required to turn over the engine (due to the high compression ratios used in diesel engines) is greater. This eats more electricity form the battery in conditions where lots of starts, stops are done.
"Question everything, including this!" - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/
Disneyland in Orlando and Tokyo will open "Yesteryearland" featuring a motorized parkway where people can drive their own open-air buggy around a closed track at speeds up to 25 miles per hour.
Just out of curiosity, what was the speed and range of gasoline powered cars in 1917?
You fail.
Woot! I'm already set, I have a Cyclopedia of Automobile Engineering from my grandfather and it covers repair and maintenance of early 1900s electric cars and trucks. The book was published in 1916 by the Chicago American Technical Society, and now it looks to back in tech style. :)
You clearly have never worked retail car sales, and felt that bonanza rush as a pair of stupidly grinning glassy-eyed 20-something newly weds ambled unsuspectingly through the door. Remember, if the girl is thin and blond and wearing "classy" clothes, all you have to do is insinuate that anything less than the most expensive thing you have is "economic", the code word for "lower class". Also remember, if they can't make the loan payments, you still get your commission.
This sounds like an excellent research opportunity for the Japanese to investigate horse/whale hybrids. It's the logical progression after cow/whale research.
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
No problem. That seems to be about the same top speed as most of the Cadillacs weaving around my town.
Have gnu, will travel.
Reminds me of Seinfeld's take on the subject.
It's take some crazy amount of training to get a horse to stand quietly by when a .50 cal unexpectedly opens up from 10 feet away. Or maybe these genetically engineered super-horses are deaf?
I, for one, welcome our... oh forget it.
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View the new models Here
The MiEV looks like a concept which is actually intended to make a successful electric car, rather than just try to get makreting inches. The fact that Mitsubishi have produced several thousand gasoline-powered test beds with a conventional auto transmission, presumably as mobile test beds that people will actually pay for, shows they are taking it very seriously. And yes, banking crises aside, I plan to buy one of the first ones as a commuter vehicle. I can't be the only person who makes journeys almost entirely of 12 miles or less, and can easily live with recharging two or three times a week.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Well, excuse me. Maybe I should have included a link to an analysis of bicycle fuel efficiency in order to catch the average Slashdot reader's attention.
include $sig;
1;
Even using the CPI metric, how on earth could anyone call a $40k car "proletarian" today?
A $2995 used Taurus is a "proletarian" car in 2008. A $2375 car in 1917 would be the equivalent of a new BMW 135 with leather seats and all the options today.
I'm afraid I must conclude that this article's author has no idea what he's talking about economically.
Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
What about prior to 2005?
Posting about the use of horses against the Nazis brings out the grammar Nazis...:)
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
..this model is Grandma Ducks car. Check in the Wikipedia for 'Detroit Electric'.
Jay Wrote a column in Popular Mechanics about electric cars from the turn of the century mid last year:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/4215940.html
In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
The thing is, electric vehicles may prove practical from a technological perspective, but it's unlikely they'll ever be usable on a significant scale. Put it this way: if you're pro-electric-vehicles, you'd best be pro-nuclear as well, because that's about the only way we're going to get enough power to run a nation full of electric cars. Not that the United States' power grid (or the grid of any major industrial power) could handle the load without a massive buildout of new infrastructure. Either that, or a major reworking of our society so that we don't need to travel as much. I can't see either happening in the near future: America is too broke to make any such major investments: hell, we can't even maintain what we already have.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
...only go at speeds ranging from 6 miles per hour to 25 mph If I can't stop, I don't think this car will cut it for me. 100 years ago they must have had a different standard for robustness.The ZAP Alias is going to be one of the first new cars to sport the old "Detroit Electric" brand. It's a three-wheel sports car EV. ZAP may enter it in the Automotive X Prize! For more information, check out the xprize cars page ZAP Alias
augment your senses: http://sensebridge.net/
Nope. nuh uh. Not gonna happen. Why?
The second largest source of CO2 after automobile manufacture is cement. you use it to make concrete. We need to curtail cement manufacture.
So, no asphalt, no cement, so no concrete. what's left?
What some posters described: slave labour making roads of stone. You're not goign to run a high intensity trucking based infrastructure on cobblestone roads. The asphalt will get pot holes. They won't get fixed. The road will get torn up. The remaining asphalt will be ground up and mixed with dirt to make a hardened (but not hard) surface suitable for lightweight low speed vehicles and bicycles. Eventually, those will give way to dirt roads, just like we've had for the past unpteen thousand years.
Industrial society was an anomaly. It's fun being alive now, but it's anomalous.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Jamais_Contente
I'm glad to see that Detroit is serious about creating a replacement for the gasoline engine.
That last statement brought to you by, Sarcasm.
Seriously, WTF? What good is a car that can go 65-100 miles at 25mph? Don't we have these already? Isn't anyone working on a car that can do 500 miles on a charge at 100mph? Or one that will work effectively in the cold of winter?
Damn it, now I'm gonna be pissed off all day.
Anything that cost $1,775 in 1917 was not considered cheap, affordable, or even attainable by most people.
The average income in 1917 in the US was $917 - this car cost nearly 2 years income for the average worker.
Ken