Sorry, I don't have the time to fully educate you...
Better do some research on these topics yourself.
BTW I was surprised you didn't ask proof for the Vietnam war...
Picture being worth a thousand words and all that.
It's called "a cover-up operation" which failed. The report by some military high ranked officer who reported the abuses before the leaking of the
pictures, and who referenced to the pictures. They had at least some of those pictures in their possession, yet they willingly failed to seek justice.
It's called proof. Claims of brutality are one thing. Proof of it is entirely different. Furthermore, proof that has gone beyond a close group who knew the truth to the matter.
Again those double standards... Where are the proofs for the Guantanamo Bay prisoners? And for the Iraq prisoners?
Justice isn't instantanious. It will take time to ferret out exactly what was going on and convict those who are charged - unless, of course, you don't believe in a fair trial.
Ehm, the whole time I've been accusing the US of not giving fair trials to its prisoners. Surely, you should have known by know that I strongly believe in a fair trail.
The problem here is, that either they knew what was going on, and where protecting those who did it, or directly commanded the soldiers to do it.
I do agree with one point, though. This obviously goes deeper than 6 junior enlisted.
So, at least we agree on one point.
Clinton did these acts. Directly.
Surely he did. But there's heaps of people acting like this. Which does not make it a good thing obviously, but I tend to see as a different kind of crime then ordering or allowing the torturing of human beings. I would have strongly prefered all commiters of crimes against humanity, to have been
unloyal to their wives instead.
And who are you referring to about "a guy appologizing"? Point to the person you claim is reponsible and show me the proof that they directly did it.
Apparantly your TV network did not broadcast Rumsfeld personal statement that he took full responsibility?
You might want to look in to exactly what the Geneva convention is all about. It involves signing countries to that document. And it involves combatants in wars between those countries. Spies, for example, are not covered.
I was not talking about spies, but about prisoners of war.
And that's the crux of the problem. I completely agree that whats going on at Guantanamo stinks.
Well, and here we come to the real problem the world has with the US. The US is not the great moral and ethical leader of the world they claim to be. In fact, Guantanamo bay and the Iraqi prisoners prove the opposite. Some severe immoral behavior is tolorated by the US government and population. If some non-US citizen might have done wrong they are punished for it. Without trial, without accusation. If a US citizen has done terrible things, he just apologizes or it is stated "yes, it stinks" and that the end of it.
However, keep in mind that "innocent until proven guilty" is concept belonging to the US and its citizens.
Surely, you must be kidding now... Do you also think the US invented democraty, freedom and justice? Please, read some non-US history book as I'm getting the impression, US-history books have been heavily distorted.
Perhapse you'd like to point out how many judicial systems throughout Europe follow the same concept?
You're kidding again right?
Just in case you were not: All EU countries do.
Guantanamo Bay holds US citizens too.
I have no knowledge about this, so it is merely a question: Are those US citizens of Causisian origin or are they American Arabs or African-Americans or American Muslims?
... holds US citizens too.
That, right there, I find even more scary.
Well, you shouldn't. It is about time the US saw all human beings as being equal instead of seeing US citizens as some kind of superior beings.
Hey, Nike is famous for using the enslaved young boys and girls to produce cheaper cloths and shoes.
So,your great capitalist country is using enslaved young communist boys to produce the shoes you're wearing. Go US!
The ability is there. If the people don't use it, they have only themselves to blame.
Actually, I don't really agree. They do have themselves to blame, but their ignorance affects the rest of the world. If their votes can elect a president who is enthousiastic about war, given the massive amount of military power the US has, then this is an extremely dangerous situation.
Their votes are important, yet they fail to educate themselves.
Here in Europe, we get television show in which policitians actually talk about their plans for the future, there are games on TV in which you can vote and they will compute how near your answers were with respect to the parties programs.
It would be nice if the US would have things like that, instead of the concerts of some artists, all the flagwaving and all the "God bless America's".
The answer I would expect is: "The US goverment , opposite to the communist goverments does not try to force some way of thinking on its population."
But, as I saw when I was in the US last year, people are fed with nationlism in the US; I saw a huge amount of flags, statements on the wall saying "Support our troops no matter what" , singing the national anthem everyday.
Needless to say, that especially, the "no matter what" part shocked me (and many others).
They are only being tried after the pictures were leaked to the press, weren't they?
How many pictures and videos were found, and how many soldiers are convicted? one is convicted and only about 6 other are being accused.
When Clinton had an affair, they were trying to bring him down. So, do you really call this a scandle now? A guy apologizing and then going on without punishment? I call that a joke.
Furthermore, Amnesty International has been accusing way before these pictures were shown to the public. They US ignored them.
And more, the US keeps mistreating the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, actively violating the Geneva conventions.
I thought the US was a little more civilised, and am therefor shocked, as are a lot of other people in this world -except for the US citizens apparantly.
Innocence until proven guilty and all that doesn't count anymore? That only counts for US citizens right?
You should be embracing history and teaching how certain views lead to the near destruction of your cultures.
Then it doesn't matter if some idiot stands up and starts trying to spread "the truth" as he sees it.
Strange then, that Bush got elected and still has massive following in the US. That Rumsfeld is still not punished for his crimes. That Sharon while he has been convicted for crimes against humanity -in his own country- still is leading his troops to cause death and destruction in Gaza.
People are like sheep. They do follow stupid leaders. If you looked at history, you should have noticed this. It has happened again and again.
And the media most succesfull in reaching the entire population -TV-, is not really educating people.
You're missing the point. US involvement in world affairs has a very strong historical precedent.
That's because you are only considering WWII.
Consider the treatement of the blacks in the US. (And by no means am I trying to imply that Europe treated black better or worse)
The treatement of the north american original population is also a very strong historical precedent.
Be that as it may.... it is not some peaceful minority sitting around criticizing US and allied policy.
No, it is a peaceful majority who's sitting around criticizing US policies. It's the minority who's using violence because they saw that using conversation lead to nothing. The US is famous for using its veto power in the U.N. f.e. to protect Israel nomatter what.
These are people who commit acts of violence... yes... even terrorism (for what worth the word has these days).
I find it annoyingly strange, that the US and Israel seem to think that violence and murder validated by a group of persons who call them selves goverment, are less evil then any other violence or murders.
If a GI rapes and shoots a beloved one, or a terrorist, I don't see the difference.
Actually there is a difference, if the GI does not get punished while he is getting the support of his countries citizens and president, it's worse.
Don't try to paint them as innocents.
Terrorism does not happen just like that. The fact that they are all targetting the US and its allies should make something clear.
Obviously, the US should have come up with reasons to absorb Canada and most of South America by now.
The US is more subtle then China, no doubt about it. But they did support several dictators for as long as their control of power was benificial for the US.
And actually, you did absorb a big part of middle America not that long ago.
Furthermore, if you look around you, you might notice that the population of the US have this strange European look. They don't seem to have Indian roots at all. Which might mean that this country indeed was captured from some other population, where the invading people apparantly performed a genocide on the natives.
So, in whatever timescale you look, the US has blood on its hands,and aparantly, just like the kolonists thought they had the right to kill Indians because they were merely beasts, the new US population thinks they have the right to decide the worlds future.
You've forgotten to mention US involvement in Europe and Japan.
Okay, US treaded Europe very well 50 years ago. This proves nothing about their current worldpolitics.
I agree. Foolish rhetoric that was uncalled for.
Indeed, implying that anyone refusing to join US wars unsupported by the UN a terrorist-supporting country is plain evil. They're using policital, economical and military pressure to force other countries into their insane wars.
And if this angers even the population of your NATO allies, you can imagine how other countries feel towards the US.
Mr. Bush is breeding hatred al around the world, even among the people who once were full of enthousiasm about the US. You should know that not that long ago, the people of (certainly West) Europe, were extremely enthousiastic about the US. The way this has changed the recent years, especially during the latest Bush reign is shocking. We, who once saw the US as some kind of leader to follow, are now appalled by the prejudice shown by the US with regard to f.e. the Israel-Palestine conflict. Obviously, at this moment, some US-citizens couldn't care less about how the rest of the world feels, because of the US's massive military power. But, this is even more disturbing for the population of the rest of the world. We see the US today as a country respecting nothing but its flag, its amendments which count only for its own citizens, their lack of regard to the Kyoto agreements, their openly ignoring of the Geneva conventions in prisons, the barbaric usage of the deathpenalty, the right to carry guns but not see titties on TV,...
Spying is largely a civil crime. There are stiff penalties in all countries for such activities. Although in practice, thos penalties take a back seat to politics.
Yes, but that's enerving a lot of people outside of the US. Seeing the US goverment demand that a US spy be returned immediatly while prosecuting a foreign spy caught in the US, is totally unfair and causes unease around the world. We could be next being treated this unfairly and with the US ignoring the UN, and using military force to get what it wants, I would say we have reason the feal angered by this.
Incidently... the US is not a neighbor to China. Yet China has spies in the US? What was that about China only being involved in its neighbors?
Hey, we are supposed to be allies of the US and we're in the NATO together, yet the US is spying on European countries as well (remember Carnivore?). This is a huge insult for us, the socalled friends of the US.
And you can thank the US for limiting the threat of China, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Even if it does make the US appear more eager and dangeorus. The world is complex like that.
Can we thank to US for creating an immense amount of pure and deep hatred against the western world? We are being hated for the US's global policies.
Yeah right...
Vietnam never happened...
Training Afghan terrorists to fight against the former USSR never happened...
The support of Sadam against Iran -although it was know they suppressed the Kurds- never
happened...
The US support of Israel does not exist although it is known that they illegally posses nuclear weapons...
The support of Turkey by the US -although it is known that they suppress the Kurds- is purely fictional...
The US did not sell huge amount of weapons to Saudi Arabia while claiming wanting to demilitarise the region...
Ahh yes. And banning hate-monger blather has everything to do with war. Much better to drive that underground than educate those who might otherwise be suceptable to it.
Yes, breeding hatred against a certain kind of people is in many cases the prelude to war.
Reading Hitlers view on the Jews will not educate them about the failures in his reasoning. Many people fell for his lies. We just don't see the point in risking a third world war.
It was US involvement before, during, and after WWII that did much to defend and stabilize Europe.
And it is that same WWII that is being used to excuse any warcrime that the US commits.
"The helped us before, so we should honor and obey them nomatter what." I certainly disagree with that. All respect to the people who died to liberate Europe from the Nazi's, but those gooddoings can't make up for current crimes.
Muslin extremists who attack the US as well as other countries. You forget to mention that bit.
And you forget to mention that those other countries are those who blindly follow the U.S..
1. We actually try to learn from our history, that's why we oppose wars so much as opposed to the U.S. which seems to glorify it.
2. Muslim extremists are a minority as well. There's a huge amount of fear against them. Hey, the U.S. even bombed several countries to punish some minorities.
So, in your logical model, if the US has used military force to help one country, this proves that all occasions were they use military force is also to help a country? Strange reasoning indeed...
How awful! The violation of the first amendment!
Freedom is a valuable right, but not without its limits.
I'm actually very pleased that the KKK, White Power and other criminal organisations can't express their freedom of speech in Europe...
In todays politics it seems rather understandable to confuse U.S. politics and U.K. politics are they are virtually the same.
Actually,that is not true. That should have been: The U.K. just blindly follows the U.S. in every possible way.
During the Roman Empire a lot of people have been displaced. They can't all try to reclaim their lands of more then 1000 years ago.
Because if that were so, the native Americans, the native Australians should start demanding the removal of the English, Irish and other European colonists in their homelands.
Also if they didn't bitch slap germany after WWI so hard WWI arguebly woudl never have happened, the Nazi's wouldn't have arisen, and no holocaust woudl have happened.
Actually, it is the other way around. The reason for WWII was that Germany had been "bitchslapped" so hard that it had fuelled a lot of hatred in Germany.
Yep. Torture. Standard operating procedure for the US military. That's why some poor underling soldiers are being handed Federal convictions right now. Because torture is something the US does on a regular basis and expects to be happening. Nevermind this "scandle" nonsense.
So Americans are cleaner because they used force to steal the Indian lands?
As far as I can recall, Hitler used force to occupy most of Europe as well. Should that be considered a good thing???
I totally agree.
And what is rather shocking is, that they don't seem to ask themselves why they are hated all over the world... They actually answer that question with a stupid: "Because we have a high living standard" as if Western-Europe and Japan haven't got a living comparable living standard. Or the completely insane: "Just because we are Americans".
No, you've been saying that Iraq will be totally self-controlled. The fact that the U.S. army will stay there, and will stay in command of any other troops on Iraqy territory, is apparantly just a minor issue. So is the fact that the goverment is being handpicked by the U.S. and therefore are nothing more than puppets.
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Sorry, I don't have the time to fully educate you... Better do some research on these topics yourself.
BTW I was surprised you didn't ask proof for the Vietnam war...
Again those double standards... Where are the proofs for the Guantanamo Bay prisoners? And for the Iraq prisoners?
Ehm, the whole time I've been accusing the US of not giving fair trials to its prisoners. Surely, you should have known by know that I strongly believe in a fair trail.
The problem here is, that either they knew what was going on, and where protecting those who did it, or directly commanded the soldiers to do it.
So, at least we agree on one point.
Surely he did. But there's heaps of people acting like this. Which does not make it a good thing obviously, but I tend to see as a different kind of crime then ordering or allowing the torturing of human beings.
I would have strongly prefered all commiters of crimes against humanity, to have been unloyal to their wives instead.
Apparantly your TV network did not broadcast Rumsfeld personal statement that he took full responsibility?
I was not talking about spies, but about prisoners of war.
Well, and here we come to the real problem the world has with the US. The US is not the great moral and ethical leader of the world they claim to be. In fact, Guantanamo bay and the Iraqi prisoners prove the opposite. Some severe immoral behavior is tolorated by the US government and population. If some non-US citizen might have done wrong they are punished for it. Without trial, without accusation. If a US citizen has done terrible things, he just apologizes or it is stated "yes, it stinks" and that the end of it.
Surely, you must be kidding now... Do you also think the US invented democraty, freedom and justice?
Please, read some non-US history book as I'm getting the impression, US-history books have been heavily distorted.
You're kidding again right?
Just in case you were not: All EU countries do.
I have no knowledge about this, so it is merely a question: Are those US citizens of Causisian origin or are they American Arabs or African-Americans or American Muslims? Well, you shouldn't. It is about time the US saw all human beings as being equal instead of seeing US citizens as some kind of superior beings.
Hey, Nike is famous for using the enslaved young boys and girls to produce cheaper cloths and shoes.
So,your great capitalist country is using enslaved young communist boys to produce the shoes you're wearing. Go US!
Their votes are important, yet they fail to educate themselves.
Here in Europe, we get television show in which policitians actually talk about their plans for the future, there are games on TV in which you can vote and they will compute how near your answers were with respect to the parties programs.
It would be nice if the US would have things like that, instead of the concerts of some artists, all the flagwaving and all the "God bless America's".
The answer I would expect is: "The US goverment , opposite to the communist goverments does not try to force some way of thinking on its population."
But, as I saw when I was in the US last year, people are fed with nationlism in the US; I saw a huge amount of flags, statements on the wall saying "Support our troops no matter what" , singing the national anthem everyday.
Needless to say, that especially, the "no matter what" part shocked me (and many others).
They are only being tried after the pictures were leaked to the press, weren't they?
How many pictures and videos were found, and how many soldiers are convicted? one is convicted and only about 6 other are being accused.
When Clinton had an affair, they were trying to bring him down. So, do you really call this a scandle now? A guy apologizing and then going on without punishment? I call that a joke.
Furthermore, Amnesty International has been accusing way before these pictures were shown to the public.
They US ignored them.
And more, the US keeps mistreating the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, actively violating the Geneva conventions.
I thought the US was a little more civilised, and am therefor shocked, as are a lot of other people in this world -except for the US citizens apparantly.
Innocence until proven guilty and all that doesn't count anymore? That only counts for US citizens right?
People are like sheep. They do follow stupid leaders. If you looked at history, you should have noticed this. It has happened again and again.
And the media most succesfull in reaching the entire population -TV-, is not really educating people.
That's because you are only considering WWII. Consider the treatement of the blacks in the US. (And by no means am I trying to imply that Europe treated black better or worse) The treatement of the north american original population is also a very strong historical precedent.
No, it is a peaceful majority who's sitting around criticizing US policies. It's the minority who's using violence because they saw that using conversation lead to nothing. The US is famous for using its veto power in the U.N. f.e. to protect Israel nomatter what.
I find it annoyingly strange, that the US and Israel seem to think that violence and murder validated by a group of persons who call them selves goverment, are less evil then any other violence or murders.
If a GI rapes and shoots a beloved one, or a terrorist, I don't see the difference.
Actually there is a difference, if the GI does not get punished while he is getting the support of his countries citizens and president, it's worse.
Terrorism does not happen just like that. The fact that they are all targetting the US and its allies should make something clear.
The US is more subtle then China, no doubt about it. But they did support several dictators for as long as their control of power was benificial for the US.
And actually, you did absorb a big part of middle America not that long ago.
Furthermore, if you look around you, you might notice that the population of the US have this strange European look. They don't seem to have Indian roots at all. Which might mean that this country indeed was captured from some other population, where the invading people apparantly performed a genocide on the natives.
So, in whatever timescale you look, the US has blood on its hands,and aparantly, just like the kolonists thought they had the right to kill Indians because they were merely beasts, the new US population thinks they have the right to decide the worlds future.
Okay, US treaded Europe very well 50 years ago.
This proves nothing about their current worldpolitics.
Indeed, implying that anyone refusing to join US wars unsupported by the UN a terrorist-supporting country is plain evil. ...
They're using policital, economical and military pressure to force other countries into their insane wars.
And if this angers even the population of your NATO allies, you can imagine how other countries feel towards the US.
Mr. Bush is breeding hatred al around the world, even among the people who once were full of enthousiasm about the US.
You should know that not that long ago, the people of (certainly West) Europe, were extremely enthousiastic about the US. The way this has changed the recent years, especially during the latest Bush reign is shocking.
We, who once saw the US as some kind of leader to follow, are now appalled by the prejudice shown by the US with regard to f.e. the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Obviously, at this moment, some US-citizens couldn't care less about how the rest of the world feels, because of the US's massive military power. But, this is even more disturbing for the population of the rest of the world. We see the US today as a country respecting nothing but its flag, its amendments which count only for its own citizens, their lack of regard to the Kyoto agreements, their openly ignoring of the Geneva conventions in prisons, the barbaric usage of the deathpenalty, the right to carry guns but not see titties on TV,
Yes, but that's enerving a lot of people outside of the US. Seeing the US goverment demand that a US spy be returned immediatly while prosecuting a foreign spy caught in the US, is totally unfair and causes unease around the world. We could be next being treated this unfairly and with the US ignoring the UN, and using military force to get what it wants, I would say we have reason the feal angered by this.
Hey, we are supposed to be allies of the US and we're in the NATO together, yet the US is spying on European countries as well (remember Carnivore?). This is a huge insult for us, the socalled friends of the US.
Can we thank to US for creating an immense amount of pure and deep hatred against the western world? We are being hated for the US's global policies.
Yeah right...
Vietnam never happened...
Training Afghan terrorists to fight against the former USSR never happened...
The support of Sadam against Iran -although it was know they suppressed the Kurds- never happened...
The US support of Israel does not exist although it is known that they illegally posses nuclear weapons...
The support of Turkey by the US -although it is known that they suppress the Kurds- is purely fictional...
The US did not sell huge amount of weapons to Saudi Arabia while claiming wanting to demilitarise the region...
Reading Hitlers view on the Jews will not educate them about the failures in his reasoning. Many people fell for his lies. We just don't see the point in risking a third world war.
And it is that same WWII that is being used to excuse any warcrime that the US commits. "The helped us before, so we should honor and obey them nomatter what." I certainly disagree with that. All respect to the people who died to liberate Europe from the Nazi's, but those gooddoings can't make up for current crimes.
And you forget to mention that those other countries are those who blindly follow the U.S..
1. We actually try to learn from our history, that's why we oppose wars so much as opposed to the U.S. which seems to glorify it. 2. Muslim extremists are a minority as well. There's a huge amount of fear against them. Hey, the U.S. even bombed several countries to punish some minorities.
Oops, misread your message :-)
So, in your logical model, if the US has used military force to help one country, this proves that all occasions were they use military force is also to help a country? Strange reasoning indeed...
How awful! The violation of the first amendment!
Freedom is a valuable right, but not without its limits.
I'm actually very pleased that the KKK, White Power and other criminal organisations can't express their freedom of speech in Europe...
No, the videogame-market in the US is free! Unfortunately, other countries goverments aren't. They are bound to slavely follow US policies.
Your statement makes no sense at all. Does the Japanese situation change the facts about Iraq?
You should get a course on reasoning.
In todays politics it seems rather understandable to confuse U.S. politics and U.K. politics are they are virtually the same.
Actually,that is not true. That should have been: The U.K. just blindly follows the U.S. in every possible way.
During the Roman Empire a lot of people have been displaced. They can't all try to reclaim their lands of more then 1000 years ago.
Because if that were so, the native Americans, the native Australians should start demanding the removal of the English, Irish and other European colonists in their homelands.
So Americans are cleaner because they used force to steal the Indian lands?
As far as I can recall, Hitler used force to occupy most of Europe as well. Should that be considered a good thing???
I totally agree.
And what is rather shocking is, that they don't seem to ask themselves why they are hated all over the world...
They actually answer that question with a stupid: "Because we have a high living standard" as if Western-Europe and Japan haven't got a living comparable living standard.
Or the completely insane: "Just because we are Americans".
No, you've been saying that Iraq will be totally self-controlled.
The fact that the U.S. army will stay there, and will stay in command of any other troops on Iraqy territory, is apparantly just a minor issue. So is the fact that the goverment is being handpicked by the U.S. and therefore are nothing more than puppets.