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Strategy Videogame Upsets Chinese, Gets Banned
An anonymous reader writes "China's State News Agency, Xinhua reports that China's Ministry of Culture has banned a computer game for 'distorting history and damaging China's sovereignty and territorial integrity'. Paradox's PC strategy game 'Hearts of Iron', was accused of distorting historical facts in describing Manchuria, West Xinjiang, and Tibet as independent sovereign countries in the maps of the game. 'All these severely distort historical facts and violate China's gaming and Internet service regulations,' the Ministry's Game Products Censorship Committee said. 'The game should be immediately prohibited.' [via China Digital]"
no matter how much it may sting, you can't repress the truth forever. I'm sure the people whom you've stomped on won't forget the truth.
Tibet *was* an independent sovereign nation before China took it over. Just because you don't like being known as a bully doesn't mean you aren't one.
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. -Thomas Cardinal Wolsey
That the video game company that makes this will stand their ground and not alter things to mesh with Chinese propaganda.
Wow, I hope they never get their hands on Civilization...
It's just a game and not all games are educational. What about Age of Empires?
Hope they dont see this.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
... And this surprises anyone because...?
;) )
I admit, that this takes it to a new extreme though - what's next, censoring science fiction because the physics in the book violate the sci-fi laws that the government approved of?
I wonder if because the game is banned, will it push it underground, and make it more popular. (In that case, start hosting torrent files, people!
"What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
Wait until they hear about SimEarth and Civilization...
I will use a 9600 bps modem as an excuse for not previewing that. Correction: China _needs_ to become more of a capitalist country
Capitalism has little to do with freedom. The issue here is not one of capitalism, but one of freedom of speech.
...maybe they can just lump it - after all, they're giving refuge to some of the biggest spammers in the US and pumping the garbage back to us.
Until they learn to "play and work well with others", they can just learn to live with everyone else's fun.
This sounds bad for the video game company, but it sure is a lot of free publicity. Maybe they did it on purpose to anger the Chinese after all. /me smells a conspiracy to get more business by pissing off chinese!
Help! I'm being repressed!
not that i approve such censorship, but i can understand it. when we see historic movies and play historic video games, it's only natural to believe it to a certain point.
take gladiator for example, the first time i saw it i thought it was more or less accurate, but i have read in many places how inaccurate it is.
bottom line, i don't agree with it, but it isn't ridiculous, they do have a point.
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
their collective heads will explode.
A government can't get much weaker than this. Stomping out dissent is low. This is even lower.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
you can't repress the truth forever
But they're certainly going to try
Definition of capitalism: Economic system in which goods and services are produced, exchanged and owned by individuals with minimal governmental regulation. Does that not apply to the selling of games?
That's basicallly what I've been telling to Japan, but they won't heed my warnings about Godzilla even though Sim City clearly proves their existance!
*bitchslap!*
To really piss them off, send them a copy of Shadow Warrior.
Unfortunately, I don't have good hard figures on the death toll from China's genocide in Tibet (as opposed to the genocide committed against ethnic Chinese during the great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, estimates for which range between 30-60 million), and Rummel doesn't have an seperate index entry for Tibet in Death by Goverment. Here's a protest poster that claims 1.2 million Tibetans have died as the results of China's occupation. We probably won't know the real number until (like the Soviet Union) after China is liberated from Communism at some future date.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
did Tibet have to be "taken over" if it wasn't a sovereign nation?
China is already a thoroughly capitalist country-- that is, a state capitalist country, in which the whole country is basically run for the profit of the state-owned industry. It is already quite removed from the old Soviet system, and is largely devoid of the traditional Maoist rhetoric about the dictatorship of the proletariat et al. They also seem to be moving fairly rapidly (by Chinese standards) in the direction of a more traditionally capitalist economy, with more privately-owned companies and foreign investment. Of course, that hasn't really resulted in a decrease in the state authority over speech, the press, etc.; it's just that now the state uses its authority to ensure corporate profits rather than the victory of the workers' revolution.
There is a sense in which China is taking a realistic road: they realized decades ago that the Soviet-style command economy wasn't going to get them anywhere, but they were also keen enough to realize that rapid reforms like glasnost and perestroika led to the sudden decline of the Soviet state before a stable alternative economy could be developed, with the resulting economic hardships, explosion in organized crime, and civil unrest. So in a sense they're taking a gradual course out of traditional Communism to avoid the problems of Gorbachev. On the other hand, those in charge of the state-run industries aren't just going to give up that power, so they want to insure that in the post-Communist economy they're still the majority shareholders, so to speak.
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
(This will probably get modded troll or flamebait, but I have karma to burn . . . )
This is one of many very conspicuous double standards on the Left. We have been bombarded with the Left's caterwauling about Israel's occupation of part of Palestine for several years now. Many lefties would go so far as to say 9/11 is America's fault.
That that reasoning is a bit like blaming a rape victim for being raped is beside the point. China is occupying Tibet and the other regions. Cuba is under the bloody dictatorship of Fidel Castro. The list goes on, but not a peep is heard from the Left. But when, for example, Israel defends itself in an aggressive war and wins the OTs fair and square, however, that's condemned in the most vitriolic of terms.
Not meaning to start a flamewar here, just want to bring some much-needed intellectual honesty to this issue.
If I post "CHINA SUCKS!!", how long do you think it will be before the Ministry's Game Products Censorship Committee bans slashdot as a violation of Internet service regulations??
Although this is not banning or censoring, strictly speaking, the Bush administration and the corporate media is not much better than its Chinese equivalents.
They distorted the facts about the real reason for the Iraqi war -- the claim that there were WMD were at best speculative, and at worst plain lies.
The US (and European - the Danish, at least) mainstream media have been very US-friendly and projected into most people the sense that somehow, the war was 'OK', even though there were no WMD, and therefore no valid reason (besides money, oil, power, and influence) to invade a sovereign nation.
The US surely can't point fingers at China for not upholding the basic human rights. The imprisonment of many people in Guantanamo Bay with no trial, no evidence, and for basically no real reason other than show the right-wing voters (who sadly seems to be the majority of US voters) that "we're doing something about terrorism".
As a Dane, it's just so sad to see how the Danish government is following the US lead in practically everything. "Oh, we'd sure like the Danish prisoners out of Guantanamo Bay, but if we cannot, they probably deserve to be there anyway. And we sure don't give a flying fuck about any other prisoners than the Danish."
[flamebait] There surely must be no oil in Tebet. [/hitme]
to the Great Firewall of China.
China bans games (and other things) all the time. Command & Conquer Generals was banned for how it portrayed the Chinese. When I played c&c generals, I didn't expect the screwy accents and "propaganda center" to necessarily agree with the Chinese people, much less the Chinese government. In defense of c&c, though, after playing it I did have a greater realization of the threat terrorism could have on China due to geography. The U.S. has it much easier being isolated between two great oceans.
Anyway, the annexation/aquisition/takeover/whatever of Tibet has been a controversy (for some) over recent years. So, it doesn't surprise me that "territorial integrity" is an excuse they cited. They can be picky about how you draw their borders.
A more fundamental question, though, is how serious people take this. It's just a game. Who actually believes what they see in video games?
You obviously missed the point...
Banned is so in. If you get your game, film, book, music, t-shirt or pretty much anything you can banned then everyone will want it. Even if you cant get it banned, just get it disliked by some authority and you've got a sure winner, infact even the people who hate it will want to see what all the fuss is about! Just some recent examples:
The Passion of the Christ (have you seen it?)
GTA (Australia, germany, blood-patch?)
Michael Moore films (Always winning Oscars)
Teenage Sex (Its all about Bush!)
CSS t-shirts (ok no-one outside slashdot cares but still)
Nick-Berg video (No-one gave a url... 3 days later everyone had it)
and ofcourse (see sig) the Vanunu interview by the BBC which has been smuggled out of Israel and gets aired tomorrow (like totally in your face sharon!)
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Israel banning video games that label palastine as a nation before it was taken over in 1948 ?
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
I've always loved Paradox's games, ever since the original Europa Universalis (I was one of the first Yanqui Pigdogs (tm) to get hold of EU!) and I'm still a rabid fanboy. This is rather disturbing..
When they say it is banned is it just that it cant be sold in China? or does it also mean if I warez it from a US server and get caught playing it I will be sent to a prison.
Never could figure out why my girl liked my bitch tits, then I found out she was a lesbian.
So the Chinese government is censoring free speech? Do you support that, or not?
Everytime you go to Walmart, Target, and other "Made in China" clearing houses, you are supporting China, and placing another fatal blow to locally owned American small business.
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
I agree. Afterall, Capitalism isn't protecting our freedoms of civil liberties, courtesy of the Patriot Act.
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
>i>"If you had invaded a country, committed genocide against it's people, done all you can to stamp out their indigenous culture ... ...colonized it and incorported it into your own nation, I'm sure you'd want to repress all mention of it as well."
_ american2.html).
You mean like every stolen land-based "state" in the western hemisphere, such as the USA, which gave aborignals disease infested blankets, hunted and killed with efficiency, and then moved them onto reservations of mostly useless land far away from their original farming/hunting grounds?
Hmmm sounds mighty familiar to me. Hell, the US Supreme court even ruled way back that the dispossession of Cherokee and other aboriginal nations was illegal, according to law, but the US just decided to send the army and IGNORE> their own courts/laws (ie: consititution)
(see a description here: http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/immig/native
Nobody much wants to hear about that, do they? Nor do you hear anyone (well, except proud newfoundlanders) talk about how the Beothuks were exterminated in Canada....
or how current government policies of "racial quantum (purity) assessment" allows the government to say who IS and ISN'T Aboriginal, thereby stripping them of their last shred of power: The right to self identify and gather as a nation. It also has the great effect of pitting "status" Indians with their 'on the dole' rights against "non-status" who often seek some of those rights, but are denied due to shrinking government handouts.
Pretty world we live in here in the west, eh? Nope, nobody being colonized HERE. Oh, right, we just call it immigration.
Oh my gawd, they killed kenny's mod points!!!!
Yes, Tibet is just a misunderstanding.
And those religions that China keeps persecuting? Yes, just a difference of opinion.
USA CENSORSED IRAQ REPORT
According to the German Press Agency DPA, the Iraq weapons dossier report (from which the above information came), was reduced from a 12,000 page report to only 3,000 pages.
CC.
P.S.: -42, flamebait
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
No, it is right there on top of your head.
Who said anything about surprise? Our expectation of Chinese mafia lies strengthens our opposition to them - it doesn't let us accept them.
--
make install -not war
Even right now there are a number of conflicts where nations are fighting for their "historical" provinces or territories.
These are the same rational that Hitler used when annexing areas like Austria, Czechoslovakia, and the Rhineland , or when Saddam Hussein attempted to annex Kuwait, which started the first Gulf War.
Unfortunately, these policies will probably continue, but with the Internet and other information sources available to more and more people everyday, hopefully there will be a more educated people to fight such actions when taken by their governments.
"Snoochie-Boochies? Who talks like that? That is babytalk!"-Jay, Chasing Amy
one commentator put it "Imagine if the Nazis upon invading France had pulled down every church except Norte Dame, and burned and looted every museum except the Louvre. That's what China did in Tibet."
He forgot "forcibly sterilized", "imprisoned & tortured clergy", etc. but I guess the guy didn't have a spare half hour to extend his analogy. The Chinese gov't = teh suck. Evil, hypocritical old men. Thank god they're our allies (mostly).
Freedom: "I won't!"
33000 civilian men women and children casualties in Iraq, journalists shot at and killed, tortured prisoners. I guess the difference is China tries to do these things in secrecy.
Not that the publishers care since the Chinese were only going to pirate the game anyway.
You're both idiots; you understand that right? ...right?
Capitalism, pure true, John Galt style, Capitalism won't ever be.
The Atlas's are dead, long dead; sad fact yes, but it won't happen.
$
That's because the government of China isn't Communist, look at what they do, just to stay in power. The government of China is a DICTATORSHIP.
Nice to see they are keeping up on their censorship of games. They're in good company, what with Wolfenstein still being illegal in Germany.
I'm really sorry about your teeny-tiny penis.
Yeah, he was a Vietnam War hero, and when he came back, he protested side-by-side, at Jane "Hanoi Jane" Fonda's protests - he'd become a pacifist and has remainded one ever since, including now.
I find it amazing how America is STILL fighting that damn jungle war, thirty years later. Those little men in black pyjamas not only kicked the U.S. out of Vietnam, they chased it all the way back across the ocean and have been a major force in every Presidential election since...
Freedom: "I won't!"
We probably won't know the real number until (like the Soviet Union) after China is liberated from Communism at some future date.
Well, Rummel which you referred to estimates that about 35 million have been excuted in communist China so far. Additionally, the "black book of communism" estimates that IIRC about 60 million people starved to death during Mao:s "great leap forward" (no natural disaster or such, just plain mismanagement of resources in the name of communism).
...to point to the West's (undoubted) human right failures, and say "we are no better than they." Guantanemo Bay is just one example; you could add the goings on at the prison in Iraq, or the temporary "extradition" of terror suspects to regimes like Saudi Arabia, who do torturing for the US government.
;-)) are far from perfect. And groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International point to US and European shortcomings on a regular basis.
No doubt, Western governments (not even European ones
But to pretend this somehow means that the US is no better than Nazi Germany, Communist China, or Theologist Iran is absurd and disturbing.
In the US, as in Europe, the people can choose "regime change" every five years, if they don't like the government. Anyone (practically) can stand for government, even former wresters and movie starts. There are a range of different political parties, and even when they do not win power, they could, and they help shape the agenda.
Is that true of China? Or Iran?
In the West, women generally have equal rights to men; whites to blacks; and jews to Muslims.
In Saudi Arabia, and much of the Middle East, your rights are severely curtailed, or practically non-existent, if you fail to have the "right" charectaristics.
Best of all: in the West we have a (basically) free press, and freedom of expression. You can say whatever you want! It can be disturbing (eulogies to paedophilia, or support of mass-murder), but it exists.
In China, or Iran, or so many other places, saying the wrong thing lands you in jail.
Tell me again that the US is just as bad as China. Tell me you would really rather live there. Tell me which of your rights you no longer wish to excercise. Tell me which of my rights you think I don't deserve.
--- My dad's political betting
The difference, of course, is that nothing's being banned in the US because it speaks unfavorably of our past. That is not insignificant.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
The difference is Americans, Canadians are free to discuss the atrocities against the Native Americans.
No one is allowed to speak the truth about the Chinese atrocities without China taking action.
Thank God I'm not Chinese.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
Let's say I made a website or a online video game which features Al Qaida killing the US president, taking over control of the population, and ruling the US.
I dare you to convince me I won't get into trouble with the US government / Secret Service within a week.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
"All these severely distort historical facts and violate China's gaming and Internet service regulations," the MOC said. "The game should be immediately prohibited."
Is it just me or does anyone else think that the real reason is the second one, violating the government-approved version of history?
Interestingly, the article itself does help answer the purpose of banning the game. It claims that it is doing so in the name of regulating "content violating basic principles of the Constitution, threatening China's national unity, sovereignty and territorial integrity."
China has proved that it's willing to do whatever it takes to remove anyone who questions the system.
Why should we be surprised?
The Iraqis shouldn't have tried to challenge the U.S. Perhaps they will learn this time.
Its not Gorbachev.
Gorbachev was for a slow transition, but the people where not. They could not handle a slow transition, and they got what they deserved.
If it were not for Gorbachev, they could still be where they were and not fumbling towards a better country. (at least they are moving in the right direction, despite falling on their face over and over)
The USA has hardly been helpful in their transition either.
SO uhm yeah... which freedoms have you lost exactly?
Thanks.
Wow, they're even worse at information-control than America. You don't freakin' tell the whole world and issue a press statement about how you have your citizens' minds in your control, you keep the whole deal under the sheets, restrict the press, have schools inform kids on how video games are evil, and only government-issued texts contain the truth, and call anyone who mentions it a conspiracy theorist tinfoil liar terrorist who's out to destroy civilization.
Go back home and play with your dollies, kiddos. Leave the citizen mind-bending to the big-shots and take notes from the Nazis like we did.
I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
Rummel also gives these figures:
Slavery (killing of Africans): 17 Million
Killing of native North and South Americans: 14 Million
What are the Tibetans doing already? Why won't they fight for there country?
You are so far offtopic it isn't even funny. Go push your agenda somewhere else.
No, but it is tradition to only mod up people who ask to be modded down.
Like so, "I'm sure I'll get modded down for this, but I have plenty of karma and can afford it" is almost guaranteed to get modded straight to +5 in minutes.
Great, ban legitimate purchase of a game, push the piracy rate higher (if possible) over there. Let's all put our hands on our faces and act suprised.
Click here for a free picture of an iPod!
And Xinjiang was *CERTAINLY* not an independant nation at any time, ever. It has always been considered an "autonomous region" along with a great portion of that western side of China, but it is by no means independant. It still functions under the rules and mandates of the Chinese government(s), and has done so for the past 2200 years.
So I believe that, although their action because of it was a bit extreme, they were at least correct in their reasoning for two of the states. The first one, Tibet, was indeed an independant soverignty until 1950, and so should not have been on that list. (of course, the propaganda surrounding the Tibetan situation with China is such that they would like people to believe otherwise)
And as a final, humorous note... should the United States censor Risk, that divides our country into five partitions. =)
-Vendal Thornheart
The difference, of course, is that nothing's being banned in the US because it speaks unfavorably of our past. That is not insignificant.
Farenheight 9/11.
Corprate self censorship is censorship none the less.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
China was nearly conquered by Tibet during the Tang dynasty. The Tibetan army stopped miles from the Tang capital, signed a perpetual treaty of friendship with the Chinese, and departed. Today, that treaty is used by the Chinese government as evidence that Tibet was always a part of China. Ugh.
To say that Mongolia, or Manchuria, or Tibet, or West Turkistan are part of modern China because they were part of the Manchu empire is loony - CHINA wasn't part of China then! It was all part of Qing - China belonged to the Manchus, not the other way around! Geez! We're seeing classic disconnection here; a foreign power makes you their bitch for several hundred years, and after you manage to kick them out, instead of saying, "Oh, that was unpleasant, let's try to not do that to anyone else," you turn around and invade your neighbors. Nice.
Imagine, if you will, that Turkey tapped on the US's collective shoulder in Iraq and said, "Oh, thanks, we were looking for that." Imperial claims to territory don't mean jack. And if anyone says anything about 5000 years of Chinese history, my hed asplode - people have been living in what's now Switzerland for what, 10,000 years, but no one but a complete prat would talk about 10,000 years of Swiss history.
"Whoo wanna some wang!"
Or maybe they'll love:"
"Flaaaaaames are gettin' hiya!"
I have been told they have even banned Maoism as well as USSR banned Stalinism after ca. 10 years after Stalin's death.
...ahem... the most uncorrupted country in the world, so the leap across our eastern border is shocking... you can bribe the guys in customs with vodka if you want to smuggle something. :) But you should remember that Soviet Union was deeper shit than present Russia, they were forced to vote ... and there was only one option to choose. :/
/. news concerning China -- Red Flag Linux, their own internet protocol (?), what else? They are really trying to remain communist but it seems to be a worthless attempt: social democracy is a much better synthesis of liberalism and socialism, if spoken in Hegel's dialectics... I believe that China will make a powerful opponent to the USA in the 21st century (perhaps it will ally with other far east states to make a contra-superpower to replace USSR, like ECON or Eastern COalitioN from Star Trek VIII perhaps?)
The situation in Russia is not superbly good -- Russian mafia and such entities are making Russian Federation really corrupted. My fatherland Finland is
Russia has always been more or less dictatorship since Ivan the terrible. And I guess it will remain so, Russians love to have a powerful leader.
But back to China: they have indeed westernized a lot even if the government has tried to stay as Chinese as possible and avoid westernization. Just look at the past few years for any
(if my grammar is lousy and this message is full of typos, I must say I have drunk today quite a few shots of booze. Also, apologize my light swearing, this isn't PG-13 after all... right? >:I)
The Chinese government is "EVIL" but ti's effective. They are also mostly "Fair". If you follow their rules. You tend to live a normal happy life. If you do not they kill you. Thus, 1 million tibetains had the notiosn of fighting back. They are dead. The rest mostly shut up. Asian cultures aren't as arrogant and stubborn as Islamic/ Arabic cultures. They'd rather subsist under a tyrant then die under a freedom fighter.
Thats why chinese tend not to have too much internal strife. I know I'm chinese and I visit frequently and have a large part of my family there. There are many things that go on that are un fair oppresive and such, but the Gov does try to keep order for the normal folk. For a large number of the population, life isn't bad.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Ever played Crimson Skies? It portrays a history of the United States in which the country splintered off into three or four seperate nation-states after the Great Depression. Was it banned in the United States? No. Did anyone bitch? No. Of course, you can buy it in a certain province of China without objection.
Banning a game (or book, or movie) because it portrays a history that differs from the government-approved version of history is reprehensible, and the motivation cannot be justified at any level.
Oh shut up. The government isn't banning the film because it speaks badly about the government. A distributor is choosing not to distribute it, for a myriad of reasons, the most obvious ones being political. The first ammendment gives you a right to expression; it doesn't promise you anyone will give you a bullhorn.
And in that particular case, it looks like another distributor is going to pick up the film anyway.
And as far as Cuba goes, my family comes from Cuba. Cuba is oppressive in terms of free speech, but it is far from the bloodbath that you describe it as. In fact, if you look at the latest U.N. statistics Cuba's quality of life is one of the highest in the world and tops among third world nations: it is close to on par with countries with hundreds of times their GDP, and it is only beneath those nations in quality becuase of embargos that limit their ability to distribute the goods that they have to sell. On TOP of that, Cuba holds one of the leading Biotech industries in the world; their advances rival the United States. They have developed a vaccine for Hepititis-C, a strain that has not been able to be vaccinated in the U.S. and that is not available to Americans because of said economic embargoes. They are also in the testing phases of medicine that cures certain forms of breast cancer without the need for radiation therapy. Cuba would be a highly advanced nation right now, if it weren't for the Communist-fearing embargoes placed upon them. If you want to talk about injustice in Cuba, or starving children, you're going to have to point the finger at the wealthy nations that restrict their trade.
You talk of intellectual honesty: perhaps you should consider that the views you hold about the left and about other countries might not be true after all.
-Vendal Thornheart
Does that not apply to the selling of games?
Absolutly! It also applies to the selling of crack cocaine and hardcore child pornography! Guess the U.S isn't a capitalist utopia after all, eh comrade?
There are different shades of gray. "Freedom" has nothing to do with economic theory.
but as explained in a later post, the other countries that they speak about were not independant nations. Manchuria (or, at the time, Manchukuo) was under the soverignty of Japan shortly after the start of WWII. Xinjiang has been under the control of China for just over two millenia.
-Vendal Thornheart
As ignorant as your reply may be, I will however point out that I did mention CIVILIANS and not insurgents. ;-)
Thank you. Someone who understands the not so subtle difference between government censorship and business decisions (maybe made for political reasons, but still made by a non-government entity). You have free speech, but no distributor is obligated to sell your speech.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Because everyone knows that expressing your outrage over an atrocity makes it all better.
Interesting stuff, thanks.
There is nothing wrong with corporate censorship. A corporation can decide what it wants to distribute or not, and what it wants to be associated with. Are you saying that corporations should distribute everything, including ant-minority films, or pro-neonazi films, no matter what the backlash?
Disney didn't stop Farenheight 9/11 from being at Cannes, it can't stop the film from going to another distributor. All it is doing is saying it is not in their best interest to be associated with that kind of political movie
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
...they go from being repressed by the state, to being repressed by large corporate interests and the state. Great trade. Basic capitalism says you want to buy cheap, sell expensive, reap the difference.
It is, cruelly and economically put, rational for corporations to preserve the chinese society as a source of cheap labor. If not them, then some other poor people of the earth. That's why you see so little real desire for change among the decision makers.
The state is happy, the corporations are happy, the rest of the world is happy because of cheap products, and the citizens... well, who asks them anyway? That is, if they get to know enough to dissent, and feel their situation is bad enough to want to do something about it.
It's the modern version of slavery, on a global scale. It's a lot cleaner, and a lot less obvious, but the interests are pretty much exactly the same. Produce at subsistance wages, the owner (state) and distributors (large corporations) reaping the profits.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
The Book of History : describes an era when China, such as it was, was a collection of feudal states that only covered the Yellow River basin.
The Records of the Grand Historian : describe a time when China controlled the Yellow and the Long river basins, with outposts further out but not much else. Also describes the destruction of a tyrannical empire.
The Romance of the Three Kingdoms: China is split into three parts again, all of which together are nowhere as large as China is today.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
China hasn't changed all that much politically since the Empress dowager assumed room temperature. It's still modernizing, maybe less chaotic, but still authoritarian. Prepare for a few trolls along the lines of "Americans such stupid imperialists. China such a great country with a thousand years of history" blah blah blah... China has too many of these trolls keeping the current regime in power.
Not only is the discussion of these matters not suppressed here, it appears in the official curriculum in schools (that's where I learned of it). It's also a common theme in works of historical fiction covering the relevant time periods and geographies, and comes up in every public discussion for which it is even marginally on topic. If no one wants to hear about it, then everyone must be very unhappy, as we seem to be populated by a multitude of Ancient Mariners, compelled to repeat this piece of history at every opportunity.
What would happen if a game had all Linux boxen named "SCONIX" instead? Slashdotters would probably push for a ban ;-)
Table-ized A.I.
Capitalism has everything to do with freedom. Private (meaning the individual) property (meaning control over anything of any worth) is the one and only means of keeping people free and at peace with each other. Speech should not be owned or controlled by anyone.
But otherwise, your points are well noted.
-FL
Maybe they are funny, but Guatanmo Bay and Abu Gharib aren't, abuse IS being carried out but Bush is quick to avoid any blame associated with it.
Games have been banned before. As well, the people are so well programmed that you don't even need to ban something in order to get industry figures to refuse to carry or distribute it.
In any case, the analogy is not a good one; A game depicting a horror 'What If' scenario like the one described would be promoted here because of the fear factor it would create and the resulting support for Draconian government.
-FL
Yes, the point you nimrods are supposed to be arriving at after FIVE THOUSAND OF THE EXACT SAME POST is that atrocities committed by various powerful nations can not be dismissed by comparing them to other atrocities and saying "Well, X atrocity is worse so it's not bad that Y atrocity occurred just now".
How hard is it to understand that ALL horrible acts are horrible?
Insurgents, civilians, extremists -- they're all the same in our eyes. We don't care how many of them are killed.
Let's make no mistake about it, Arabs and Muslims are *all* vermin. Each one of them should be terminated. It's a goal that will be achieved eventually.
Here is proof of our ultimate power. Now that China fears us, we have already subdued one 5th of the world's population. Other Asian countries will soon follow. Then the rest of the world will be ours!!!
Strike now while the world is caught unaware!
All your computer are belong to us!!
Speaking of:
... colonized it and incorported
"If you had invaded a country, committed genocide against it's people, done all
you can to stamp out their indigenous culture
it into your own nation"
I suspect if someone released a game where the U.S. was owned by Native
Americans, it would not be banned here.
You do realise that you dont' get much of the news the rest of the world gets. This is corprate self-censoryship. Farenheight 9/11 is an obvious if somewhat weak example. When a incident arises in the middle east, say you bombed a wedding party. The US media will spin in as positive a light as possible because the majority of the News audience doesn't respond well to havign their side becoem the bad guy. In the rest of the world we hear most of the story. When you bombed A platoon of Canadian soldiers, US media spun it as an accident, while the rest of the world heard how the pilots were told to "disengage" but decided to be heroes and disobeyed orders.
Farenheight 9/11 is propaganda from a anti-republican individual. It's not being activly oppressed but it is havign a hard time finding distibution, for fear of government punishment on the distributor. Think of it this way, a corporation is in business for money. The film is garenteed to make a profit (moore has a build in audience). Disney refused to distribute it, likly for fear of "bad" treatment if they do.
Although the US has very little Active censorship (aside from sex), they do have a lot of filterign that happens for different reasons, thus you get a US positive view of the world. But incidentally most of the world doesn't lik you too much. As someone else pointed out, it's not what you got, but how you behave. Like a grade school bully who has a rich family.
Quickie examples:
the USA promotes free trade. The USA slaps tarrifs on Canadian softwood lumber, because the US lumber lobby put enough money in Government coffers. The USA loses the WTO ruling, this tarrif is said to be unfair by a trade body the US helped create. (hippocrites)
Canada has 1 case of BSF, the US closes all borders to Canadian beef. The US has 1 case of BSF, attributes it to a Canadian supplier, no evidence exsists for this. Canada substatially beefs out it's detection methods, the USA keeps it's old detection methods (the ones the canadians were using before). Border stays closed. Reason: US ranchers lobby put enough money in Government coffers to keep it closed.
And all this is to your "best friend" and neighbor. I hate to see how you fuck over your non-friends.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Karma to burn, but I need to vent. Let's go.
Yeah, that's a courageous position to take.
China is already a thoroughly capitalist country-- that is, a state capitalist country, in which the whole country is basically run for the profit of the state-owned industry.
Is it? Is that the central design coming from Bejing? Or is it just the fact that at the core, it still is a Soviet-style economy, but it's greatly in need of funding to keep things running. And only certain areas of the country are generating enough capital, which in turn goes to line the pockets of government officials, so they look the other way while the influx of capital slowly erodes central control, (brining with it the freedom of discretionary spending).
Fred
"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
And the response to that is simple:
You were legally entitled to make the post you just did. No one can throw you in jail for making the argument contained in your text.
Of course a great deal of spin, filtering and self-censorship goes on. Of course Big Media is going to present news in a fashion helpful to it financially and poltically. That's no surprise. But so long as dissent is legal and the marketplace of ideas isn't regulated by men with guns and jails, we're basically OK. You and I and anyone with a set of working vocal chords (or typing fingers) is free to respond to whatever nonsense the powers-that-be present with whatever resources we have available to us.
Well, the map of the United States used in today's video games is historically accurate only for the last couple of hundred years. Before that, it was a series of independent tribal nations, you insensitive clods!!!
exactly ; china is not a communist country, it is a troughoutly capitalist country with political system that has only one political party. One doesn't count out another, they may well live together.
I'm glad you feel also that people should be required to fund others expressions.
I plan on expressing myself by quitting my job and playing videogames. Please send money cash or check to fund my free speech. If you don't you're commiting censorship!
i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
You do realize that, fundamentally, there's no difference between the censorship in the US and China, right?
The basic pattern is to threaten people where they hurt in the given context. In China, the natural lever is inprisonment. In the US, it's money. The use of the lever can be direct ro indirect, but the principle stays the same.
Also, the effect of purporting a lie as the official truth is the same, whether the government does that directly or private corporations do it for the government. If you have no access to an alternate opinion, "freedom of speech" is a moot point, as you had been trained to accept the "one truth" without blinking. And even if, after you've been indoctrinated with the official truth, you hear someone voicing a different oppinion, you're more likely to consider that person mad - after all, everyone knows what the "truth" is.
This is the line China is taking now - repeat something strong enough and for long enough and it will become truth.
Free speech is worthless by itself. You need at least an open-minded education to be able to begin and understand/use it.
Scenario 1: The US bombs a gathering of rebels. The rebels claim it was a "wedding party" (everyone has guns at wedding parties, right?). US and foreign journalists pick up conflicting reports.
Scenario 2: The US bombs a wedding party. US spokesmen claim it was a gathering of rebels (everyone has guns at wedding parties, right?). US and foreign journalists pick up conflicting reports.
Now, I won't say which I think is more likely. Are the rebels lying, or did the US make a mistake?
(Most of the rest of your criticisms are dead on. This particular one just irks me.)
Human/Ranger/Zangband
No, it's not.
If I buy a bootleg copy of Hearts of Iron in China and get caught by the police, what will happen to me? I could go to prison, a nice comfy Chinese prison, for a very long time.
If I buy a bootleg copy of Fahrenheit 9/11, what will happen? I can't get caught by the police, because it's not a crime. (Selling without permission of the copyright holder is illegal, buying is not.) I can pop it in my DVD player and go to town, invite my friends, call the Mayor, the Chief of Police, and the President and tell them all, "I'm watching Fahrenheit 9/11, and you can kiss my ass!" Nothing will happen.
In fact, I won't even have to buy a bootleg. The movie is now legally unencumbered, and I'm sure they will find a distributer very soon. Because we live in a, you know, free country, all you need is one maverick movie house who sees the incredible amount of money that film can bring in, and you have a nationwide Friday-night release.
Corporate censorship is bad, but it should never be compared to government censorship. There is an enormous difference between simply refusing to distribute a work, and punishing anyone who possesses a work.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
capable of litigation, making soap and picture frames these days. I would gladly buy American IF what I need was available in "made in the US" version and was higher quality than its Chinese equivalent.
Sorry folks, I don't need "handmade soap", candles, and $50 picture frames. I did appreciate "Assembled in the US" sign when buying my new Toyota, though. It looks like Japanese companies care about US economy a lot more than US companies. They also don't outsource the manufacturing of high quality stuff to third world countries, and think that if you pay big bucks for something you have to get what you've paid for, a genuine Japanese-made quality product.
I feel that Japanese companies have chosen the right overall direction. They focus more on efficiency, not just on the abstract "cost". If you can manufacture ten times more stuff by employing one worker and having an efficient process in place - that's what a Japanese company would do.
An American company will just outsource the manufacturing to the countries which use child labor, hire two dozen workers there and not change the process (to do this you have to have a manager with brains and courage - a rarity in US corporate world).
What we're having now in the US is the direct result of hiring brain-dead hand-waving fast-talking morons to manage people and companies.
My point wasn't the right for moore to get distibuted. I think he's like Billy graham. He preaches to the converted.
My point is there is censorship in america. Whether it be your puritanical network censorship of nudity. or your heavily filtered news media.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
In other news, Article titled "Strategy Videogame Upsets Chinese, Gets Banned" gets banned due to offensive colors for a sensible civilization
Striving to be common...
They'd rather subsist under a tyrant then die under a freedom fighter.
I used to work with a number of Chinese scientists who'd come to the US for grad school. Some of them clearly intended to stay here as long as possible, but others were more nationalistic. I asked one student (who had pictures of Zhou Enlai and the aftermath of the Naking massacre on his desk) why obviously intelligent people like him continued to put up with the Communists. He said it was because the situation in China kept improving: they now have some form of capitalism, better technology, continuing superpower status, and so on. And as you suggest, as long as you follow the rules you'll do pretty well. He said that if things got worse, they might be more inclined to want a change of government, but right now nobody wanted to rock the boat. I guess if your parents lived through the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, modern China must seem pretty terrific.
I've heard similar claims made about the US, although they're usually made by people who think we're not communist enough.
Who's the bigger patriot? A man who volunteered to go to war, went overseas, saw first hand combat, killed the enemy and was injured three times, who decided that the war he fought in was not accomplishing anything and needed to be stopped before more people died needlessly?
Or a man who joined the reserves, asked not to be sent overseas, and spent the war skipping out on his duty?
Not supporting an arbitrary war doesn't make you a pacifist. We're telling our troops that they are fighting to protect America's freedom. If the war proves to have no net positive effect, directly or indirectly, on our freedom, and indeed devolves into wholesale slaughter with no gains, what're you supposed to do? Keep fighting and trying to win a war nobody believes in? Or back out in shame?
Incidentally, in the past 40 years, how many generals won the presidency? How many lawyers? Are you claiming we wouldn't vote for Washington or Lincoln anymore just because they weren't governors?
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Yeah, it's so hard for Americans to find foreign news. It would be cool if there was a box you could sit down in front of that would somehow talk to foreign news organizations and get their news. They could hook up to organizations like Le Monde, Xinhua, Pravda, and the BBC, and let you read the stories they put out. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to keep dreaming.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Scenario 1: The US bombs a gathering of rebels. The rebels claim it was a "wedding party" (everyone has guns at wedding parties, right?). US and foreign journalists pick up conflicting reports.
Scenario 2: The US bombs a wedding party. US spokesmen claim it was a gathering of rebels (everyone has guns at wedding parties, right?). US and foreign journalists pick up conflicting reports.
This is true. IT could be either side. The BBC stated that the facts were insifficient at this time to tell for sure and gave some time to each idea. How many americans think it's a terrorist sect for sure? Also, it may be even a different scenario. It was a real wedding party but when the wedding was in progress the ussual rifle firing was going on, and soem cheeky guest Aimed for a passing plane. It would not be unlikly. Then is becomes a stupid and tragic incident instead of "another example of US malevolence" or "another example of GI joe getting the bad guys".
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
ehhe. Thats cheeky. You also have to remember language is a barrier. Most Americans don't read french or chinese or russian. And yes, some don't even read English.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Good job that the material coming out of Hollywood is not censored due to historical inconsistencies. That MPAA would have an even bigger threat than piracy!
It's disturbing how hard it is for the masses to effectively control their government, and not the other way around. The very few deciding the destiny of millions and rewriting history as they see it.
Here in America we would never have such.... wait a sec, there's someone at my door...
Not the other way around.
No one is thrown into jail because of this game. They just banned this game, so no one can make money from distributing it.
Good game. There are a couple of things in the chinese complaint that makes sense. Japan having 'territorial claims' on tibet makes no sense. This is true, but as a gameplay mechanic its needed for the japanese AI to attack china. In terms of soverign nations in the game any sort of semi autonomous region gets independence, in the in game map sense only a small portion of india is direcly under british rule the remainder are several separate nations who are allied with britian (and basically vassals or colonies but technically separate nations) as well as some other wholely independent ones. It is certainly fair if you want to be historically accurate to say japan has no territorial claims on any of china, but from a gameplay standpoint the only way the AI will attack is to give them territorial claims.
One of the other arguements made by the chinese is a hard one to escape. HOI (and Victoria empire under the sun which is their latest 1836-1920 game) don't very well capture things like gas, terror bombing doctrine (say obliterating a city with heavy bombers), concentration camps etc... In game terms in HOI japan and germany are just other nations, they have a different governement yes, but there isn't much of a 'evil' effect from that. If you have a game where the holocost doesn't happen it's not historically accurate, and if you were a victim of the holocost (and the like) that omission is very relevant. The chinese have every right to feel the same about how the japanese treated them. I'm not sure that means banning the game is appropriate but at least requiring some indication of the 'gameplay vs reality' in the box is fair. HOI doesn't use a nazi flag, at all, because if they did it wouldn't be legal for sale in germany, so there's no easy balance here.
Most of the USA is held by right of conquest. With occasional exceptions, the most famous of which is the Trail of Tears where Andrew Jackson evicted the Cherokee by force against a Supreme Court decision saying that the land clearly belonged to them.
However Canada had little history of conquest (the 2 wars fought were against the half-Indian Metis who were pissed off at being left out of the treaties) and negotiated treaties instead. Treaties which were not kept all that well. And then there is the curious case of British Columbia, where in the Gold Rush they "forgot" about a lot of legal niceties. About 70% of the province clearly still belongs to the natives, who'd also really like some compensation for everything that has been mined and logged illegally. But since the natives have little money or political power, they're unlikely to get what by law should be their right.
Well, I don't read Russian, so I have no idea what the fuck Pravda was saying when I linked to it. I can read Le Monde without any extra effort. I could get an idea of what the headlines on Xinhua are about if you gave me some time and a dictionary; I'd do a little better with a radio or TV feed. (And yes, for reference, I am American.)
Of course, the most prestigious non-English news organizations often have an English version available. Pravda and Xinhua do; oddly, Le Monde apparently does not, which is too bad, but of course it doesn't really affect me directly.
However, many Americans don't pay attention to anything except the horrible 30-minute national news segment on their local network affiliate. My point is that Americans aren't prevented from accessing foreign news. If many of them choose not to, that is too bad, but these people do not represent all of us. Saying something like "you don't get much of the news the rest of the world gets" is patently untrue. I do get much of the news the rest of the world gets. Some people don't, but that's their own fault. No one is stopping them. If nobody has bothered to package it up into sound bytes and cram it into a 30-minute evening TV program with lots of animations, well, life is hard. The ability is there. If the people don't use it, they have only themselves to blame.
Interestingly, this goes for China as well. The Great Firewall won't stop you from reading CNN, BBC, Le Monde, USA Today, or even FOX News. (Yes, I've tried it. No proxies or subterfuge required.)
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
For the wise mod(s) that marked me flamebait, here's what a flamebait should look like - watch and learn:
/. mods care about is the one to download p0rn. Anyway, I'm done, mod/flame away, I have karma to burn today.
If you think that pointing out flaws about the US mithology of freedom is a flamebait, you sir are an idiot. You probably sit on your ass most of the day and wait for others to "guarantee" your "rights" - or maybe they're God-given and all who trample them (muslims or not) will burn in Hell for eternity.
Here's a newsflash for you: freedom is never 'free' - you must pay for it, and the more valuable it is, the steeper the price. There is no free lunch, and the value of some liberty you claim you have is proportional to what you'd sacrifice in order to defend it. You, from your real life and posessions, not some abstract soldier in a corner of the Earth calld Afganistan or Iraq, that you would more often than not have trouble finding on a map.
Nah, why do I even bother - the only freedom most
I have a half-japanese relative (who lived in Japan for a couple years too) who only says Mozilla as "Mozira" (I don't think he says "Mojira" though, even though he says "Gojira").
Okay, I'll play the deconstructionism game. "2 + 2 = 4". Is this objective or subjective truth? If the latter, what's the opposing truth? Or is this sum just a piece of propaganda which has been perpetrated over the course of millennia?
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
Any film by Michael Moore is the worst example you can give. This is the type of person that distorts everything he doesn't like to make it fit why he doesn't like it. Admittedly I've only watched Bowling for Columbine, but if that's any indication of his style, I don't need to see anymore. There's enough falsehoods and outright lies in that movie to turn him off completely.
And like others have said, corporate censorship is not the same as government censorship. I'd be behind you all the way if it was the government censoring this movie, but it's not, so shut the hell up.
2. The money to rebuild Iraq is being paid for from their own oil revenues. The cost to repair the damaged Iraqi infrastructure after Saddam Hussein invaded his neighbor Kuwait, destabilizing the Middle East and threatening to undermine the world's energy supply, starting GWI, United Nations-imposed sanctions, and Saddam Hussein refused to comply with the United Nations' GWI ceasefire terms and subsequent resolutions, necessitating GWII is, IIRC, about $36billion.
And with more being money lost in the graft and corruption endemic in contracts with US corporations than even was stolen through United Nations corruption in the oil-for-food program , signed without the Iraqi people's ratification because holding a nationwide referendum in a country which was a few months ago ruled by a genocidal dictator, to vote on terms for procurement contracts is a very realistic and practical idea , they're in a hole so deep that they'll be lucky if their grandchildren see daylight , considering all the oil-for-food money which Hussein wasted buying weapons from the French and Russians.
It might be easier for a citizen of the United States of America to understand the 'insurgents' actions in these term: the Iraqis are being taxed without representation by a colonial power , although fortunately the direct taxes to pay for all this are being levied upon United States citizens, not Iraqis, and the insurgents are actually Baathist loyalists and Iranian-backed Al-Qaeda who are desperate to prevent the establishment of a second democracy in the Middle East.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
> Tibet *was* an independent sovereign nation
Yes, it was a autonomous repressive theocracy based on a feudal system with serfs with almost no rights while the monks ran everything from controlling currency to taking children from their homes and turning them into monks.
Of course the free tibet people won't tell you this.
I'm not taking any sides on the people's communist revolution vs. a small theocracy but if we're going to talk about history its important to know that the very same Lama who does talk shows and is an inspiration to millions cared nothing for democracy and was the first Lama to use modern arms and sent his men to their deaths when they fought the far more capable (both in technology and training) and numerous people's army.
Basically anything that can be construed as glorifing the Nazis is banned, and that includes playing a game where you can be them. The reason for this isn't because they are trying to pretend like WWII and the Holocaust never happened, but quite the opposite. They still see this as an enormous black mark on their country and they allow nothing that makes it look anything but bad.
An over reaction, to be sure, but an understandable one and something you can respect a little more. China is banning things that don't agree with their offical version of history. Germany is banning things that could be seen as glorifing what they consider to be their darkest days.
When a incident arises in the middle east, say you bombed a wedding party.
Do you have any proof, from independent unbiased reporters (not Al-Jazeera), that a wedding party was intentionally bombed? All I've heard are reports from the afore mentioned news agency, which is so obviously pro middle east it's not even funny, and no one else.
The US media will spin in as positive a light as possible because the majority of the News audience doesn't respond well to havign their side becoem the bad guy.
The US media has been doing everything BUT spin the war positively. All reports that come from servicemen and women over there are positive. All reports that come from the media are negative. Why is that? Because bad news gets ratings. It's as simple as that.
Take a look at the difference in coverage between the prison abuse scandal and the beheading of a civilian contractor. The media was all over the military abuse but barely touched the beheading. Why is that? Because everyone hates the US military of course. If they were reporting on real atrocities (being humiliated is not an atrocity, at least you're still alive) then they would've covered the beheading a whole helluvalot more than they did.
The US media sure is biased, but they're biased against the US (CNN, mainstream news, etc).
I'd be behind you all the way if it was the government censoring this movie, but it's not, so shut the hell up.
ironic isn't it. paraphrasing: I don't support censoring, now stop giving your opinion.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Do you not know anyone who's gotten married in the last few decades? In the USA, women certainly can keep their surname after marriage. Simply... continue using it! If you don't explicitly change government IDs, you retain the existing name. Nothing to it.
The US media sure is biased, but they're biased against the US (CNN, mainstream news, etc).
From my point of view in canada it seems the other way around.
There is also a creeping anti-canadian sentiment. It started as light hearted jokes from the Simopsons and Family guy but When I visited america last month I recieved a lot of mean spirited questions and comments. Admittidly from my GF's teenage brother.
Comments like "You guys are free loading off our military spending", "you guys have no military", "Why don't Canadians pull their wieght".
CNN may latch on to the bad stories but their still fairly pro-US. Check out BBC more often to see more balanced stories.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Peter: I'll take it. Hello, China? I have something you might be interested in... that's right, all the tea...
I remember when legal used to mean lawful, now it means some kind of loophole. - Leo Kessler
As a matter of style, you could just say "The ACLU is an organization of people" without the redundant composed, for of by itself already implies a part-of relationship.
I've seen Japan-occupied Manchuria referred to as "Manchukuo" before, but there is no "kuo" character in Japanese (though it's possible to spell it phonetically). The Japanese word for "Manchuria" is "manshuu" and Japan-occupied Manchuria is "manshuukoku" ("koku" is "country"). So is "Manchukuo" a bastardization of the spelling or something? What is the deal?
The 1.2 million figure comes from Tibetan exiles. As Machiavelli noted centuries ago, exiles will say or do anything -- lie, cheat, steal -- to take revenge on the government that expelled them.
Modern examples: the WMD claims made by Iraqi exile Ahmad Chalabi; and the "baby incubator" story from Kuwaiti exiles that suckered the U.S. into Gulf War I.
I suggest you take that 1.2 million figure with a ton of salt.
Nevermind, I just figured it out. "Manchukuo" is the Chinese word for Japan-occupied Manchuria, written in the old romanization system (Wade-Giles?). The modern spelling (pinyin) would be "manzhouguo." Isn't Chinese romanization confusing?
So you're comparing all Americans to your GF's, more than likely ignorant, teenage brother? Yeah, that makes sense.
And I don't need to check out the BBC to get balanced stories. I can check more than one US news source. For the record, I don't watch CNN or the mainstream news because everytime I turn it on to get a different point of view, I see them leaving things out that other sources have reported. Give me all the facts and then let me make my own decision. That's the news I like and it's the news I usually read/see/hear.
China: We don't like the rest of the world, so we'll ignore them.
US: We don't like the rest of the world, so we'll bomb them.
continuing superpower status
That's a GOOD thing?
Give your opinion all you want. You seem to be upset about corporate censorship and how it's the same as government censorship. It's not the same, period. Speak out about them censoring it if you like, but until the government starts censoring things I have no problem with it. It really just comes down to 1 individual, the CEO, deciding that he doesn't want to distribute it. It's no different from one friend telling another "Hey, shut the hell up, I don't want to hear it." Same thing.
:P
And let me correct you "I support personal censorship of things I don't want to hear"
So you're comparing all Americans to your GF's, more than likely ignorant, teenage brother? Yeah, that makes sense.
He seems a rather representative individual. Southern Californian. 18. Going to University next year. honor student. Watches TV news.
It is true that most Americans aren't the Unwashed idiots some portray them to be. It's also true that soem are. And little biases work their way into every individual. I have a few, I dislike Islamic governments. Especially psuedo-theocracies and full on theocracies.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Ok, here the leap. A Corporation is a legal entity. It can have great power and is controlled by a few individuals, someitmes they are elected.
A government is a legal entitiy. It can have great power and is controlled by a few individuals, sometimes they are elected.
(note: this is more hahahah it's funny, then a serious attempt at comparing the two. so don't mod me down -10 obviously worng. Also don't mod up +1 insightful.)
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I should clarify... they seek to avoid the mistakes of Gorbachev. I'm aware that Gorbachev wanted a smooth transition, but the particular reforms he implemented had a sort of domino effect that led to the unintended dissolution of the entire Soviet system.
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
do the math, unless Tibet birth rate is 10x of jackrabbit, you Tibet Genocid just a myth.
Almost as many Jews were displaced from Arab countries as 'Palestinians' were from what is now Israel when it was initially created. I don't hear anyone crying to give those Jews their land back. The Jews have as good a claim to that land as anyone. All their holy sites are there and more importantly, they took and held it. In property law, they have held that property in adverse posession long enough for that land to be theirs. They're making better use of that sliver of land than all of their Arab/Muslim neighbors.
Look, people get displaced all the f'ing time. More Germans lost their land and homes after WWII than Jews and Palestinians combined. I don't hear Germany whining to France, Austria, Poland, the Czech Republic about it. The US isn't going to give Native Americans back their land. We aren't going to give Mexico Texas, California or the the rest of the South-West.
"We obviously need a new moderation category: (-1, Woo-fucking-hoo)" --Mr. AC
Christ, you're an arrogant fuck. So we should assume that most "non-americans" can all ready french, chinese, and russian. Your point it moot.
"We obviously need a new moderation category: (-1, Woo-fucking-hoo)" --Mr. AC
It's also true that not all canadians aren't beer swilling lumberjacks, but some are. Wow, really representative huh? For one who talks so much about ignorance and media brainwashing, it sounds like you might be a little too affected by these independant news outlets (IndyMedia maybe?).
"We obviously need a new moderation category: (-1, Woo-fucking-hoo)" --Mr. AC
You are just a pathatic anti-semate
It seems that everyone is so sure about theire position. And blame propagandat affecting their mind.
:P
But what is the REAL truth, because after all, in North America, there is a BIG propaganda that Tibet is NOT part of China. Whereas, with in the contry it is saying that Tibet IS.
1) Are you all historians?
2) Can you actualy read Antique Chinness Caligraphy Which Survived WWII?
3) Do you actualy have these documents?
So we are stuck with one major problem, the only people who can actualy verify the facts are chinesse historian living in china. which for a fact, may or may not saying the truth due to political enforcement. Yet, outside the contry, strong political reason makes Tibet a strategic military stronghold in advent of invasion of china. In short, both party (inside and outside) will or may curently have strong interest of persuading their point of view.
The truth is out there, not what the news is saying, in ancient chinesse scroll
Your post is just shit!!! LIAR!!!!
Actually, in 40 years, no generals, 3 lawyers. 17 of the 43 Presidents were governors, and only 3 of the 8 in the last 40 years were governors, so I would hardly say that's the trend.
To answer your political point, I would harther have a president who served without distinction, than one who served only to return to criticize his peers. Or to put it in terms you would understand, I would rather have someone who joined the reserves and did his time without incident (obviously since little records exist, he did nothing that drew attention to himself), than one who joined the military only to tell his fellow soldiers he had joined for political gain, who exited early under the 3 purple heart rule yet will not release any records explaining his injuries that led to the medals. And I wont even go into how he threw "his" awards away...
They'll have to bootleg it. /me laughs at own joke
"No one is thrown into jail because of this game. They just banned this game, so no one can make money from distributing it."
You'd be punished (through jail time? I have no idea.) for distributing it after it's been put on the banned list.
Spoken like a true A/C. Kudos to you and your A/C brethren for invigorating this discussion.
Quebec government bans the game because it showed quebec as part of Canada.
Who give a ratz ass as to what some seperatist think? If it's not UN sanctioned, you are not technically a country. Plus tibet was a land of feudel buddist theocracy, no different than Afghan feudel muslim theocrazy.
You know, this post is just a short version of the post below it. This one got a -1, and the one below it a +5.
This place never ceases to confuse the hell out of me.
--- I'm going sane in a crazy world.
I own eight or nine Japanese products: Olympus digital camera, Canon film camera, four Canon lenses, Canon flash, Sony stereo, Sony DVD burner. Out of these products, only the DVD burner is made outside Japan. There goes your "they outsource everything too" argument.
Fuck Michael Moore.
He's a useless attention whore.
We can agree to disagree, but this is a pretty dumbassed assessment of the situation. First of all, you know fuck all if you think that Americans didn't hear the story that the pilots were told to disengage. For emphasis, if you think that Americans were not told that the pilots were told to disengage, you know
fuck
all
The pilots were not punished for the incident for one crystal clear reason. If a fighter pilot believes he's being attacked but can't retaliate because he's afraid that the people shooting him (as he believes) are allies, many fighter pilots will die. The fighter pilots in question performed EXACTLY as trained. They believed that they were being attacked, they asked for target confirmation. The confirmation came back negative, they believed that they were still being attacked, so they believed that they were defending themselves. It was a horrible mistake.
Blame the training, blame the procedures, blame the information, blame your goddamned dog. Blaming the pilots tells me that you know fuck all about how a military is run - but don't let that discourage you from blaming the pilots.
The truly moronic thing is to believe that somehow the rest of the world heard the truth while the Americans were lied to. You heard it because we heard it. The difference is that we're willing to give the situation a fair trial rather than just write it off as another crime against humanity committed by the Great White Satan America. It was a tragedy and probably the worst combat incident of the Afghan/Iraq engagements (except perhaps the bombing of a wedding party in Afghanistan) but the pilots performed as they were trained to perform.
And all this is to your "best friend" and neighbor. I hate to see how you fuck over your non-friends.
So you don't know shit about how a nation is run, but what's your point?
You find me ONE nation in history that did "the right thing" because it was the nice thing to do. There are none. It must hurt your self respect to act surprised that a government protects the money of its citizens and supporters rather than do nice things for foreigners.
I know this is one giant flame, but I really couldn't care. I'm the type of American who would have empathy with international opinions, but this snot nosed crybaby shit will grate on anyone's nerves. America does not equal bad. Every time I read such a halfwitted post as yours I lose empathy for the world opinion. Fuck'em. They expect us to intentionally run an incompetent military. They expect us to intentionally screw our own workers. Fuck'em. Let the rest of the world hate us, better to be envied than to share their company.
And in case you feel like responding, let me cover the bases. Yes, I'm usually a Republican voter, but I'm not voting for Bush because 1) I think he's doing a horrible job and 2) I fear the candidate the Republican party would promote after Bush served a second term. I have a very expensive liberal arts education and have crossed oceans. Do your worst.
Delete the word "fiction" and change "physics" to "biology", and you'll find that very thing happened in the Soviet Union, in the form of Lysenkoism.
As an expanding oppressive regime, no.
As a check on the power of another expanding oppressive regime, absolutely.
So many god damn China bashers on slashdot, it really pisses me off.
So Tibet is annexed. Who cares? Whining and quoting the same old statistics won't make it any better. Falung gong is banned. Why that's great news! Those brainwashed motherfuckers deserve an education, when they worship a fucking con-artist. Support Taiwan independence? Better not! I don't want to see WWIII.
Everytime an article mentions China, all the trolls here come out and repeat the same shit. "China bans this or that, those nazis" How about taking a look at the shit the US government DO NOT ban! Like the multitude of racist rednecks allowed to spread their filth freely on the internet; guns guns and more guns for all; and not to mention all the Christian fundementalist bullshit, like there is no evolution. As much as I love free speech, I rather not learn of the existence of those scum.
Maybe you folks feel all so cool and liberal when you criticise China's government. But lets not forget we are talking about a fucking videogame here.
Tell me you would really rather live there. The food there is SO much better....
You leave out a third and entirely possible scenario:
3: The US bombs a wedding party taking place amongst a gathering of rebels...
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
...is always interesting to observe.
But damned depressing, too.
The man with no surname and a silly hat
On the universe: It's bunk.
... in that area of the world, most males own firearms, usually at least an AK, for various reasons, and YES again, it is a big part of their culture to shoot them off at times of celebration.
That stuff is widely known, BTW, so it's not far fetched at all to believe the people's story at that massacre site. It's happened all over, just last week I was listening (radio interview)to a soldier who just got out, describing how his unit would shoot civilians at the drop of a hat.
You'll just have to face it, the US is starting to get pretty trigger happy over there. And right off the bat, just think on this, EVERYONE "detained" is automatically a terrorist, instantly a non human basically. That's official US policy. All you have to do is follow the news from more than a few places and you can see that. And they really don't care too much about killing innocents (collateral damage), because they had to go in and save innocents from getting killed, on the way to the WMD giant stashes, that were one second away from being launched towards the US. It's a sham really, and we are looking worse and worse every day around the world. On 9-11-2001 everyone around the planet sympathised with us, now they mostly distrust us, and it's PRECISELY from our governments official actions since then. No other credible explanation except that.
I live here, and I am fully confident in saying the bulk of the population here is just plain old fashioned jingoists. Wish I had a dime for every "nuke the ay-rabs!" I have heard from people or read on forums. And the less informed they are,by talking to them to find out, the more stupid sounding and violently racist they sound. That's the PLAN, that's why we have a mass media that operates like that, it's to keep people faked out, dumbed down and following in good little goose stepping fashion, whatever these "elites" think they want. And it WORKS. The theme of genocide is still alive and kicking, unfortunately it's coming from a lot of places, INCLUDING the US, and it's reflected in our governments actions, it speech patterns into officially recognized propoganda newspeak ("detainees"? how utterly intellectually dishonest, and almost every journalist out there still uses the term), and in our controlled large news media which DEFINETLY censors and massages anything important.
Beware of making broad statements like "Russians love to have a powerful leader." There are many nations in the world which have long histories of autocracy before converting to more liberal democratic systems. The fact that Russia hasn't made it so far is more likely due to the specific facts of Russian history and less likely due to broad cultural phenomenon. (Not that the latter can't have an impact on the former.)
Nationalism seems to really blind the Chinese.
They still overwhelmingly believe the US pilot in the slow, prop-driven plane rammed the Chinese jet fighter. R-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght.
If they can't build jet fighters that can keep up with those things, they can buy some WWII surplus planes from the Phillipines. I don't know where they'll find competent pilots.
They also resent it when their government is criticized for...oppressing them! Go ahead, I guess.
I don't read any "indymags". I read the Edmonton Sun (sorta like the fox news of the local papers. I do so because my father subscribes), BBC news (website), Edmonton Journal (more lik the bbc), and ocassionally google news.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Whoa whoa whoa cowboy. I didn't say a thing about any government lies or anything like that. I was simply stating that disney's decision to not carry Moore is not an infringement of his freedom of speech.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Internet access isn't available everywhere. And a large section of the US has no access. what the penetration? 60% of all house holds? that leaves 40%. not an insignifigant number.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
:). I'm just suggesting go look at an international source. And no I didn't suggest the alternative websites. Me I read only english but speak chinese and english with a little bit of filipino and indonesian.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
'distorting history and damaging China's sovereignty and territorial integrity' ... distorting historical facts in describing Manchuria, West Xinjiang, and Tibet as independent sovereign countries in the maps of the game.
Once can only see the double standard here.
One the one hand, China is chided for such historical revisionism that contradicts current political dogma.
Why do some Americans see this any different from the situation in Israel/Palestine?
Why do Palestinians have no right to exist, and there was no "state of Palestine"
Why does Israel have a God given right to that land by way of Bible, history, ...etc., while Palestinians do not?
The only difference I see is that China uses overt repressive actions to make sure that its version is the only truth, while the pro-Israel lobby uses less overt actions (e.g. charges of anti-Semitism, self-hating Jew, ...etc.)
He's a Chinese national, but resides in Australia, reportedly.
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
I'll reply more later. But here's how it look to everyone else. A set of pilot attacked and killed allies. They killed people. They were told not to engage the target but did so anyways and they KILLED a group of allied soldiers that were doing some fire training. Now they only hurt some these men then slap their wrists, gound them for a week and moev one. But they KILLED 4 people.
They made a decision, they should face punishment for it. They did not get punished. Military is military but if you train your military men to disobey orders and to attack without confirmation, why the fuck are you sending these people out there.
Lets not forget THEY KILLED 4 people.
War is War, but don't tell me this is right in any way. Blame the pilots, fuck yeah. They killed 4 people on a whim. They were not taking on direct fire because they were not beign fired at, they could have flown away, rifle fire is not good at downing a retreatinf jet. But they wanted to score up a few more kills to stamp on their wings so they KILLED 4 servicemen. And there is no comfort for the families of those 4 because no one was punished. Lets also put this in perspective, they KILLED 4 people and they disobeyed orders, and got off scott free.
I'll repond more later.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
If they were reporting on real atrocities (being humiliated is not an atrocity, at least you're still alive) then they would've covered the beheading a whole helluvalot more than they did.
Being raped by a broomstick is an atrocity. It's more than just humiliating to be beaten with a chair.
Some of them aren't alive anymore, in case you aren't satisfied yet that something more than harmless "humiliation" is occuring.
In case you believed the official excuse, it isn't just a few individuals.
Bias and hate don't mitigate facts. There's a reason this is news.
The enemies of Democracy are
Imagine that in 50 years time you release your excellent game and then tell me if you get much buloohah from the secret service (or Section 31).
See my point?
[American Heritage Dictionary] You raped a woman and call her a terrorist when she fights back.
And all this is to your "best friend" and neighbor. I hate to see how you fuck over your non-friends.
We bomb the everloving shit out of them and take over their country. Where the hell have you been?
Let's face it people, it's the 21st century. Yakov Smirnov is a genius, but we must continue to refine the art of repetitious comedy. This is why I present to you . . .
IN BERKELY CALIFORNIA, a man in Dayton, Ohio interviews YOU!
Cheat Commandos, rock, rock on!
Perhaps Vthornheart was thinking of Canada and Mexico? Not generally thought of as part of the United States, but sometimes folks do forget...
As of 2002:
CHINA - - - - - -IRAQ
===================
authoritarian gummint?
Yes - - - - - - - - Yes
invades its neighbours?
Yes - - - - - - - - Yes
supports bad people who do bad things to us?
Yes - - - - - - - - Yes
have lame taste in pop music?
Yes - - - - - - - - Yes
Have weapons of Mass Destruction?
Yes - - - - - - - - No
has murdered many thousands, if not millions of its citizens?
Yes - - - - - - - - Yes
corrupt to the core?
Yes - - - - - - - - Yes
is opposed to free speech?
Yes - - - - - - - - Yes
has hundreds of nuclear weapons pointed at us?
Yes - - - - - - - - No
is an economic threat to our working classes?
Yes - - - - - - - - No
Is an up and coming superstate, to rival US (Oceania) and the EU (Eurasia)?
Yes - - - - - - - - No
has the world's second largest oil reserves?
No - - - - - - - - Yes
So, let's see: why didn't we invade China to liberate THEM from their evil gummint? Oh- that's right: the Chinese have nukes... So we'll invade Iraq on the pretext of it having WMD.
You think this is bull? Read THIS: it's intense and amazing. Iraq is just a side show. China's the main course, and don't forget it. They are the only thing standing in the way of Eurasia and Oceania. Eurasia will get Oceania to blow its military power on side shows, and founder on the rocks of China. This will leave China spent, the USA a leftover empire in a death spiral, and an Expanded (Russia Inclusive) and ascendent Eurasia, spanning from Portugal to Alaska.
No matter what, Europe wins, as long as the USA insists on a unipolar geopolitic. IF we agree to a multipolar system (like what Clinton was trying to wedge us into) then we can use the down time to develop ourselves and surpass both EastAsia and Eurasia, without having recourse to sideshows like Iraq.
The Great OZ has spoken.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Taiwan was under Japanese control since 1895, and "Manchuria", "West Xinjiang", and "Tibet" were not part of China at the time. The first was a Japanese puppet, the second a haven for a warlord and the local Turkic Muslims, and the last was still a free country. It is amazing the mind games the Chinese government tries to play with their history, although it is nothing new. The First Emperor burned all the ancient records from before his reign and the Han Emperor later on made sure they were the ones to tell the story of the wicked Chin dynasty. If they could have banned historically based Strategy games, they surely would have done it.
What I want to know is when that stupid tradition of firing guns at weddings started. Do you think that, during active military operations in your country, you might want to break tradition?
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Which is exactly in accordance with their training. Their training specifically said that they do not need target confirmation to defend themselves, but always ask for confirmation. This was a carefully designed system that allows the pilots (whose lives, safety, and sanity depend on their confidence in combat) to react without second guessing their every decision.
They have fire-and-forget weapons. They cannot function in battle if they fire a weapon and then spend the next 3 minutes worried that their career is over. They will hesitate to fly into combat if they need someone else's permission to defend themselves - and that someone else is hundreds of miles away, supporting multiple aircraft, and "informed" via satellites and computer systems which are never failsafe. The target confirmation system works marvelously when making an offensive attack. It was never intended to be used for authority to defend oneself.
Now, the pilots thought that they were defending themselves. That was a horrible mistake. These were well trained and experienced pilots. If you punish these pilots for defending themselves according to their orders, what do you expect every other pilot to think? "Those guys followed orders and got shit canned, I guess I'm supposed to sit on my thumbs until some geek 500 miles away says it's ok to shoot back." What's that going to do to their morale? Their ability to perform their duties? Their confidence and sanity when under fire? This situation is wholly unacceptable.
Friendly fire situations like the one we're talking about are awful situations but you cannot treat them like an ordinary crime. Acting in the military is following orders not because it's fun or you think the orders are good, but because that is what you have been told to do. If you follow those orders and something goes wrong, it is absolutely wrong to hold the guy responsible. You can question the system, rebuild the training program, put in checks and balances, but killing the messenger is a bad reaction.
If the pilots in question had not acted according to their training, my response would have been very different.
But if you're going to use the Moore argument, then there is censorship EVERYWHERE.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
The pilots thought they were being fired at with some type of 20 year old rocket system. I don't recall the details, but I did follow the investigation a little bit. It is definitely true that the pilots were probably not in a life or death situation themselves, but I reiterate my point about the other pilots in the force. Telling the other pilots that they -MUST- wait until their life is significantly threatened before they can return fire would probably bring about the early retirement of many pilots.
In addition, I've got to say your analysis of the situation is incredibly lacking. You suggest that they saw the gun fire, asked for confirmation, get the response "These are allied troops", and then said, "Dur hur hur, let's kill them anyway," believing that they would become heroes for scoring more kills. If you seriously believe that could even remotely be slightly similar to what actually happened, I have foolishly entered into a discussion with a person lacking reason.
Many arguments are really nonsense. Machuia has belonged to China for at least 400 years. Tibet and Xinjiang has belonged to China for at least 300 years. Tibet was a slave country and Dalai Lamma was the biggest slave owner before 1950. Read some basic history books and you will know many of you are so ridiculous.
The other 29,999,995 Canadians? They all wanted to lynch them. A typical knee-jerk reaction from people who don't understand the situation, don't understand how air forces work, and want to blame America for everything. It disgusts me.
Disclaimer: IANAL. This post is, however, legal advice, and creates an attorney-client relationship.
mod him down
Taking games seriously like this is like... whining to death when I purposely TK you in a game of Desert Combat.
I guess what I'm saying is that the Chinese gov't reminds me of a bunch of 14 y/o whiners. Wake up people! It's a game!
Btw, if anyone else is interested, I find after a long days work, nothing beats TK'ing the shit out people playing DC, or just about any other game. Words cannot describe the level of enjoyment I experience blowing up a plane right before a teammate wishes to hop into it, blowing him/her up in the process. Also, don't for get the manditory "Attention: Flight 402 has been cancelled".
And here's the big difference between us (the US) and them (the Islamic fundamentalists). Those soldiers are standing trial.
But forget I said anything. The guy that killed hundreds of thousands with meat grinders and poison gas should've been left alone and the soldiers that killed a few (not saying it's right) are the devil incarnate and their entire country is evil.
A Corporation is a legal entity. It can have great power and is controlled by a few individuals, someitmes they are elected.
This is true.
A government is a legal entitiy. It can have great power and is controlled by a few individuals, sometimes they are elected.
This is mostly false. At least in the US, the government is controlled by the people. We all have a right, and IMO a duty, to vote. So it's not just controlled by a few individuals, it's controlled by the majority of the population (over 18). The only people that aren't elected are judges and committee members, but judges are appointed by the President who is elected. Committee members end up being elected to their seat in the house or senate so they can be booted as well. People have a lot more power over the government then they do a corporation since they can effectively change all the "management" of the government in one day.
The US Constitution says the government cannot censor things, with some exceptions (yelling fire in a crowded theater for example). It says nothing about what a corporation can and cannot censor.
So while your analogy is true on a VERY basic level, it's false on a much grander scale. EVERYONE at age 18 has the right to vote for their elected officials. Only the STOCKHOLDERS of a company have the privilege of voting for the officers of that company. That's a pretty big difference. If you don't like a company censoring things, don't buy ANYTHING from that company.
There is nothing wrong with corporate censorship.
I'm sorry, but there is something wrong with corporate censorship. Corporations are huge government-like organizations whose sole purpose for existence is making money. There are many corporations that are multi-national, and many of those (and many others) are very powerful. Letting corporations censor stuff is just as dangerous to freedom as letting the government do it.
The way I understand it, Disney laid out terms and said "we'll ship any movie that meets these terms" and Fahrenheight 911 met those terms, and Disney decided not to distribute it. Well, that's a broken promise, and considering the size and power of Disney, I think it's pretty fucking important that they keep their word. Whether the story as I hear it is correct or not is actually irrelevant, since my point is that honor, integrity, and so forth are even more important to society when manifested in large multi-national corporations than they are when manifested in individuals.
Never forget feudalism. Give corporations the power to censor and feudalism is where we're going, except I think under the circumstances it would be called fascism or something or other. Same thing. Some lord who owns everything working us really fucking hard, abusing us, and so forth.
Now, you could have said "There's nothing unconstitutional about corporate censorship" and you would have been at least accurate. But some forms of corporate censorship are illegal (they fall under the heading of Full Disclosure laws, like those nice stickers you get on the canned/jarred food you buy that tell you what's in the can/jar) because our government already knows that corporate censorship is dangerous.
Like what I said? You might like my music
China can keep snapping up land as long as they keep enslaving young boys and politic prisoners to make my crappy, yet cheap, shoes and tacky dollar store items.
only to get SARS from some peasant who fucked his chickens?
>So you don't know shit about how a nation is >run, but what's your point?
>You find me ONE nation in history that did "the >right thing" because it was the nice thing to >do. There are none.
Yeah, but that usually goes hand-in-hand with not going around trumpeting that all the things you did are right.
> If I buy a bootleg copy of Hearts of Iron in
> China and get caught by the police, what will > happen to me? I could go to prison, a nice
> comfy Chinese prison, for a very long time.
Bullshit. You won't go to prison for this.
Imagine that a popular japanese movie depicting the americans as nuke-happy jumping southerners who just want to show off there new toy as a way to do dammage to the japanese for the hell after descimating the local populace with firebaombs was released here, and the US powers that be decided to sensort it as 'hate mongering'- would you still be complaining?
What about if the americans created a cartoon depicting the japanese as idiotic monkey faced individuals with awful teeth, actually called them 'monkey face', and ended the cartoon with an atomic-style explosion killing them all to a skippy soundtrack (It happened; watch 'bugs bunny vs the japanese') and the japanese government censored it.
I'm not arguing that china is nessassarily right or wrong with this action, so much as pointing out other perspectives that you can look at the situation from.
-Millions of Monkeys, Millions of typewriters, 6 hours of sorting through faeces encrusted pages to find: This post
I think someone misunderstood the meaning of the term 'shotgun wedding'.
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
Just like the tortures in Abu Gharib where just one big misunderstanding? Hey, Rumsfeld politely apologised for it! What else can you expect! It's not like he's going to get prosecuted or anything. ... and we get a polite apology...
When Sadam's goverment was responsible for torture, they used economic sanctions to cripple the country, then the country was bombed to pieces.
Now, the U.S. goverment goes to war and tortures people,
I'm awaiting Bin Laden to sent his apologies about 9/11...
I'm supposed to care what a totalitarian regime's thought police does in a 3rd world country where almost no one speaks english?
Who cares if China's ministry of lies and propaganda bans a video game? I don't live in China and have no plans to move there. If the Chinese want to act like nimrods in their own neck of the woods I don't see how that's my problem. They can all fuck each other up the ass with whiffle ball bats for all I care, I'm not the one who will get hemmoroids as a result.
As long as we (and I do of course mean the US) vastly outrank China militarily, and China is fully aware of the fact, then I don't see any reason to care what China does to its own citizens. Any group of people who will allow themselves to be conquered by a socialist fiend like Mao aren't exactly the most prized specimens in the gene pool anyway. Ideally I would of course like to see them evolve into a Democratic republic. (And by that I do mean the real thing. Calling your nation-sized gulag "democratic" ala North Korea just doesn't count.) I'd love to see freedom and self determination flourish everywhere for that matter. But if that isn't possible I'll settle for being the biggest and baddest dog on the block so that at least my freedom and self determination is ensured, provided of course that I'm eternally vigilant in protecting it.
For those readers who found the above too long and tiring to read, my sentiments can be summed up in two simple words..... FUCK CHINA.
--the US military is getting attacked BECAUSE they are over in some other nation, fighting people who never attacked them in the first place. this is contrary to even the most basic common sense. If they weren't there, if all those guardsmen and reservists were back home with their families where they belong, they wouldn't be getting shot at or shooting back, would they? And they got sent over there based on some really questionable "data" presented as absolute fact by our appointed leaders. I mean, there's still millions of people who think saddam had something to do with 9-11 based on government lies and media massaging of the news. I would say don't blame people resisting invaders, invaders who showed up with really advanced weaponry, and who have already killed thousands of non combatants.
This isn't a defense of saddam,and he's a freaking goon we propped up and supported in the first place, but it is a condemnation of going to war under false pretenses, then blaming the people over there if they fight back in the only ways they can. You have _one_ choice against overwhelming tech and military superiority, and that's assymetrical warfare. Turn it around, would you fight back if some coalition that was huge enough and big enough and decided to come over here and "regime change" us, even if you disliked the current regime here, wouldn't you consider those people invaders? I certainly am NO fan of the past three "regimes" we have had here in the US, but no way would I have welcomed or assisted some large outside military force coming over here and "helping out", I would consider them "the enemy" and act accordingly.
As to how those folks over there feel about us, I think if a long time ago we had changed two things in our polciies we would be better off. 1-we should have run with the reality wake up call of the OPEC embargo and engaged in a massive national size scale effort to completely eliminate any dependence on middle eastern oil. Totally. 2- we should have stopped the massive support for radical zionism in our policies by at least the early 70s when it became obvious that things weren't as originally presented. And along with those two issues, we should have never shipped so much as one bullet, in sales or direct aid, to any nation in the mid east. That's a blunder of incalcuable dimensions really.
We've failed to hold onto any sort of moral high ground. Look around at all the foreign press, we have alientated a lot of the planet based on our actions. US based international companies have profitted immensely from the continuation of strife and conflict over there for generations now. Granted, some other places would have provided arms, but WE wouldn't have done it, and we could then hold some positions that were more ethical and more practical, improving our national prestige and our national security at the same time.
Eisenhower warned us, he said watch out for the influence of the military/industrial complex. He could smell what was coming, and took his last national appearnace to issue that warning. It was that important to him to say those things. Too bad we didn't heed his warning, a warning coming from one intimately involved in "warfare" and the realities of "business profits" and notions of right/wrong. Everything they have done has now resulted in MORE people who don't like us, so that has decreased national security, not increased it, but it's sure made a lot of profit for a dozen huge military/industrial concerns and the high level people connected to them.
Realistically now, I see no easy answers. The best of all the hard answers is to pull out as soon as possible, and I hope inside this nation we have some credible investigations leading to some serious impeachments and trials for racketeering and treason. I don't think that will happen though, too many people are brainwashed into thinking this system of two paid off and bribed off political parties still works, when it's obvious that people outside the electorate are the real political power here, not "the voters" and not these actors/script readers passing as politicians who are front men for those elite who call the shots.
for the simple reason they have over 1 billion people in their country.
It is simply not fair that the Tibetans wish to live their simple, unproductive life while the numerous Chinese are forced to live in squaler.
The situation you describe only exists because these people refuse to learn Chinese, and many can't even read because the Dahli Lama (or whatever) doesn't want his masses to learn how. These are people who are nothing more than feudal farmers.
The most humane thing to do with them, is what the US did with the native Americans. Just move them to reservation, where they can live out there obsolete native ways.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
America is a strong nation. The strongest in many ways, specifically as a military power and as a market. But it's NOT the only country. Many Americans seem to think that their way is the only way.
The reason I make this comment here is to point something out that's always bothered me about Americans. A Constitutionally Appointed First (I think) Amendment Freedom Of Speech is NOT the only "Freedom of Speech". Here in Australia I can also say what I want, and not get thrown in jail. Why is my freedom of speech less than your freedom of speech? And yes, I HAVE argued with americans on this issue who claimed that I don't actually have freedom of speech.
Citizens of America seem to sometimes think their country can do no wrong. Is this ignorance, or arrogance? Don't let your vaunted Freedom of Speech impare your freedom to listen, and your freedom of thought.
People have fought and died for your right to question your government. So use it.
Thanks for posting.
If you have never played Hearts of Iron, I challenge you to buy it. It is the best world war II strategy game ever.
Daniel
I have foolishly entered into a discussion with a person lacking reason.
Stop with the flames. It makes you look ignorant.
The pilots got a negative target confirmation. They were not in a life or death situation. They then flew back to the area to attack the target. This means they chose to do this, and they chose to risk their saftey to kill the target. Which turned out to be allied. If they were prmarily interested in their own safety, they would have flown away. There was a negative target confirmation. Meaning Command did not think the target was valid. I heard the conversation between air command and the pilots. The pilots chose to attack. I doubt it's because of training, it's lack of proper dicipline in those pilots.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
So while your analogy is true on a VERY basic level, it's false on a much grander scale. EVERYONE at age 18 has the right to vote for their elected officials. Only the STOCKHOLDERS of a company have the privilege of voting for the officers of that company. That's a pretty big difference. If you don't like a company censoring things, don't buy ANYTHING from that company.
Thats yoru government. The statement is true of other governments. Sometimes it is elected. There is no falsehood in that statement. And many Authors and intellectuals (not the most authoratative source) think at some point Corporatiosn will assume government like powers. In the thrid world, large corporatiosn already act like foreign powers so it's not much of a stretch.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Ah, sorry about that. Understood.
The way I understand it, Disney laid out terms and said "we'll ship any movie that meets these terms" and Fahrenheight 911 met those terms, and Disney decided not to distribute it.
Like you said, corporations sole existence is to make money. It is Disney's responsibility to weigh the reprecussions of being associated with a politically charged films. It was their judgment that it would hurt the company to be associated with the release of the movie
The reason there isn't anything wrong with corporate censorship, is that somebody else can report or distribute the information. Broadcast TV censored potentially disturbing video of mutilations in Iraq, but that doesn't stop internet, or other TV networks from broadcasting the information. If people want the information they can get it.
There is a huge difference between corporate and goverment censorship. Corporate censorship is "let people get the information elsewhere" goverment cesorship is "nobody can see this information ever"
Never forget feudalism. Give corporations the power to censor and feudalism is where we're going, except I think under the circumstances it would be called fascism or something or other. Same thing. Some lord who owns everything working us really fucking hard, abusing us, and so forth.
I'm not sure how you got to your feudalism analogy. The structural requirements for a fuedal society are not there. People are not "tied to their land", and the values of free education and free enterprise (the workers can become owners through stock investment) work against fuedalism. If a "lord" works me too hard, I can work for another, or start my own business.
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Alright, I have some time now to address the parent:
Blame the training, blame the procedures, blame the information, blame your goddamned dog. Blaming the pilots tells me that you know fuck all about how a military is run - but don't let that discourage you from blaming the pilots.
Blaming the pilots is easy. They took an action which was the opposite of their training. Going back to a presumably dangerous area, against orders to destroy a assumed target. I'd say that has nothing to do with training. Training would be spotting a target, getting confirmation, attacking target. Or spottign target report target, lear area while comman confirms, then come back wiht reinenforcements. They did neither. They attacked, without any orders to do so. So it's not the systems fault 4 people dies, it's the pilots.
So you don't know shit about how a nation is run, but what's your point?
Havign taken many courses in both Political science and sociology I'd say I have as much insight into the subject as you do with your "liberal arts" education. as for an example of a nice thing to do, when the islamic terrorists crashed planes into your nation, Canada opened up it's borders and homes to accept the hundred of passangers that were rerouted. Mexico did no such thing. We opened up our homes and provided nessesities to these passengers at our own expense without need of compensation because we are your neighbors. More examples? America spend billions rebuilding nations into it's own image under the marshall plan. They spent this not because they woudl ever directly benifit but because they chose to do it. The reasons behind it were complex but in the end you created Japan, Germany, and South Korea (later on and not part of the marshall plan).
As for the US and it's treatment of it's allies. The US did not think of it's own citizens and it's own jobs when it was buying support for it's war in iraq. It rewarded any country that woudl help it out. Even the war in afganistan. Do you think it's coincidental that the tech jobs evacuated to India and pakistan near about the same time as the War in afganistan? Those were rewards for allies who behaved well. But as for Canada, I object to the hipocracy of saying "trade should be free" then slappign tarriffs and cloing borders. You signed a legally binding contract,then you keep violating it. This why people hate Americans because so many of them are hippocrites.
As for running an "incompentent" military. Most think you already do. See the SAS, one of the most respect military teams in history. They told the US military to fuck off, because they don't want to work with the US army and the US intelegence because in their proffesional oppinion, you are incompentent.
I am pro-American. I believe if I must suffer under the heal of a tyrant, the US should be that heel. Because their heel is a lot softer. I personally think their war in iraq is a play for power. If they should screw it up (which they have) they will lose the reigns of power. I support the US, I know that, despite the current crop of leadership, they are basically decent folk who mean well. A lot of times they have inssuficient information to form a good oppinion and thus resort to jingoism and turning a complex situation into a single statement like "Nuke the arabs". Thats fine. In my oppinion, the arabs deserve the nuking. They deserve it because they foster hate, and promote violence.
I like the US, I value the same Ideals, I am also right of center. However it does not make them proof against critisism. They have made some pretty dumb mistakes because their current admin. values ideology over practicality. They have doen a horrible job. Like viet nam, they sent soldiers in with vague orders and no over arching goal. thus it was doomed to failure. If the goals were more transparent, and more well defined like "Remove all human life in the area" I could reasonably expect them to achieve that goal. However their goal is to "Bring democracy to Iraq". Well tha
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
The Chinese gov't = teh suck. Evil, hypocritical old men. Thank god they're our allies (mostly).
Big mistake.
Those evil old men are not our allies, they don't give a rats ass about our country, and their only goal is to increase/maintain their personal power.
Countries/governments don't have friends or allies... they have congruent interests which make it temporarily convenient to team up on occasion.
And here's the big difference between us (the US) and them (the Islamic fundamentalists). Those soldiers are standing trial.
A few are, seven to be exact. Scapegoats, you could call them. That's not justice, it's spin control.
Rumsfeld knew about the abuse for months from a report quoting "sadistic, wanton abuse", but didn't even bother to look at the pictures until they had been leaked to the public. No prosecutions were undertaken until well after the scandal broke. Face it, if it wasn't ordered, our government knew but didn't care about the abuse until it was in the media.
That's the real difference between "us" and "them". When our corrupt leadership is exposed, we can do something about it. Of course, keeping the population complacent with ignorance has shown to be a good way of getting around that.
But forget I said anything. The guy that killed hundreds of thousands with meat grinders and poison gas should've been left alone and the soldiers that killed a few (not saying it's right) are the devil incarnate and their entire country is evil.
If you could possibly show me how U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners had anything to do with ending the atrocities of Saddam, you might have a point. Instead, we're just continuing the legacy. Don't introduce a false dichotomy of "Saddam is evil, or we are evil, but not both".
But don't make the mistake of thinking that must mean they are just as bad. If you'll remember, the attacks on the occupying forces went up sharply last December, after Saddam was captured, reflecting the Iraqi opinion shown in polls: Being ruled by the U.S. isn't great, but it is better than Saddam coming back.
That's not an excuse for one second of the abuse at Abu Ghraib.
The enemies of Democracy are
Riiight... I'm ignorant, but you're telling me that these highly trained, experienced, extremely trusted fighter pilots from the best equipped, best funded, and largest air force on the planet just flipped out one day and willfully attacked Candians so they could get a higher score. But I look ignorant... Keep telling yourself that.
Riiight... I'm ignorant, but you're telling me that these highly trained, experienced, extremely trusted fighter pilots from the best equipped, best funded, and largest air force on the planet just flipped out one day and willfully attacked Candians so they could get a higher score. But I look ignorant... Keep telling yourself that.
Highly trained means shit all. Your troops are only as good as the base of people they come from. Thats why the citizen soldier is often as good as the regular army. Because your regular army is draw froma certain sub group of people. They ignored a order. Thats telling enough.They willfully made a bad decision.
Your comments lack content. You do in fact look ignorant.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
This has already been explained.
They were following orders to defend themselves if they perceived that they were under fire.
The intel officers who identify targets for the pilots do not have authority to give orders to the pilots. There were no orders which were disobeyed. The pilots made a very bad judgement call, but their orders explicitly left that judgement in the hands of the pilots.
I do encourage you to examine the incident a little more carefully.
I'm not against righteous self defense, I am a strict believer in personal and national self defense, BUT, it has to be clearly righteous. Basing aggressive actions on lies and claiming self defense, and involving an entire nation, and killing a variety of people based on those lies is treason with a capital T, and no one's profits are worth it, IMO. And it IS the main issue here, I don't want to get side tracked about it.
and we always had an effective deterrent to the soviet union expansionist aggressive tendencies-back we we actually MADE stuff that wasn't military. People all over the planet used to loke american goods, they were decent enough. We had the really big carrot and stick then-don't be ajerk off nation, we will trade with you. Become a belligerent jerk off nation, poof, not a single one of your people ever enters the US, you are never to do business with any american company or person, and any third party/nation dodges that are discoverd, then that same boycott embargo would hold for them too.
Given the choice between semi crappy soviet arms and even worse consumer products from there, most nations would have opted for trading with us instead. That is only an opinion, but too bad we never tried it instead of the gross tit for tat arms race. We never tried that tact though, because it actually required courage and intelligence and a high moral ground stance, something severely lacking in modern business, government and in it's various militaries with revolving door retired officers and politicians->direct to military "business". I can look at it, clearly see it as a conflict of interest. What else could it be called? Joe general or Joe senator "retires" goes to work in international schmooze and sales for bigbang co, inc. Is it no wonder "crises" requiring their "products and services" always seem to arise?
It's called the heglian dialectic, that is how our government and foreign policy (and domestic as well) is run now. Create a problem, get the desired psychological reaction, offer the solution, a profitable solution.
It's a scam. You can slap shiny paint on it, throw all sorts of noble words at it, academic-icise it all you want to-but it's still a scam mostly.
Maybe you have read this before, most likely yes, but in case anyone else reading this hasn't, I present 'war is a racket" a piece written by a major general of the maries smedley butler. appropriate on this memorial day weekend:
Google link, take your pick
The first link has all five short chapters, it's quite good, I agree with him. He says it better than I can say it.
Scenario 1 is correct.
A) Yes, people do have guns at wedding parties in Iraq. It is customary to fire them into the air as part of the celebrations.
B) There is video footage of the wedding. People shown in that footage (such as the keyboard player - who is semi famous in Iraq - and other wedding guests) have been shown as the same people in pictures of the dead as a result of that bombing.
Now, I can guess at which you thought was most likely before my post (you say rebels lie, but the US only makes a mistake? Why isn't the US capable of lying?), but I hope you see the truth now. Go watch some non-US media channels for further insight.
I don't know about inventing it, but I sure got bitched at for doing it all the time in Action Quake 2. :-(
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
Chinese people would be so much better off if China was taken over by Japanese :D
Their votes are important, yet they fail to educate themselves.
Here in Europe, we get television show in which policitians actually talk about their plans for the future, there are games on TV in which you can vote and they will compute how near your answers were with respect to the parties programs.
It would be nice if the US would have things like that, instead of the concerts of some artists, all the flagwaving and all the "God bless America's".
The answer I would expect is: "The US goverment , opposite to the communist goverments does not try to force some way of thinking on its population."
But, as I saw when I was in the US last year, people are fed with nationlism in the US; I saw a huge amount of flags, statements on the wall saying "Support our troops no matter what" , singing the national anthem everyday.
Needless to say, that especially, the "no matter what" part shocked me (and many others).
I don't watch a lot of TV, but here in France, I've never seen TV shows like you talk about. The TV news programs are better than American news programs, but I never saw anything like that weird political quiz show you describe.
As far as disturbing things, every country has them. "Front National" and "Come celebrate May Day with Le Pen" posters, and Le Pen getting almost 20% of the vote two years ago was pretty disturbing to me. The US just gets more attention because of its size and power. Of course, it also deserves that attention, for exactly the same reasons.
Anyway, I don't see where you really disagree with me. I never said the situation wasn't bad, merely that the fact that most Americans don't get a lot of outside news can be blamed squarely on themselves, and nobody else. Yes, this has huge consequences for the rest of the world, but you can't change it by whining about it, any more than you can stop a hurricane with a sheet of plywood.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
No, don't, not.
This is an important example of how blinded by nationalism and biases people can get. The Chinese were wrong in their assessment of who was at fault. It is not possible for a properly trained fighter pilot in a post-wwII fighter plane to be rammed by that type of spy plane. It just isn't.
I was not trolling - which I define as deliberately offending people with insincere posts in an attempt to get them to waste time posting replies.
So go get stuffed.
than one who served only to return to criticize his peers.
What, soldiers loose the freedom of speech and any right to criticize the armed forces? If a man in the army gets back from Iraq and criticizes the guards at Abu Ghraib, he's a bad person?
I would rather have someone who joined the reserves and did his time without incident
And got a sweet assignment ahead of hundereds of other people, and didn't show up for duty, and had his wings revoked after he failed to take a physical, thus throwing away a few hundered thousands dollars the military had spent training him...
than one who joined the military only to tell his fellow soldiers he had joined for political gain
Uh-huh. I'm sure he signed up with the intention of getting wounded three times and having shrapnel still in his body just so he could run for office (rolls eyes). And of course, anyone who joins the army looking to boost their following career, whether it be politics or for college money, is also obviously a bad person as well. I'd have to guess then that at least 90% of the armed forces must be made up of bad people in that case.
And I wont even go into how he threw "his" awards away...
Why not? You seem to have gone for enough other neocon revisionist history.
I just came back from a roleplaying convention in Germany, and one of the traditions there is to auction a cigarette lighter, that comes with a free copy of one of the two worst RuneQuest supplements ever produced, either "Daughters of Darkness" or "Lost City of Eldarad". We then go out onto the battlements and burn it just after midnight. A couple of years ago, the immolation was in full swing, and a timid german accent piped up from the back, "Don't ve have laws against this, now?"
Absolutely priceless.
My opinion is: banning it is like sweeping it under the carpet. Not only do people forget about it, but the carpet gets bumpy.
was that Americans would laugh at the Iraqi Information Minister, and then quote Ari Fleischer. Ari has the same job - he just has a different flag in the background.
No, the difference is that there is no freedom in Tibet and China won't ever get out of there by itself.
In contrast it was the US who has given some sort of freedom to Iraq, and they are already on their way out.
Besides the sheer scale of the respective crimes.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Sorry for the public request, but I've sent a few emails and you've not responded so I don't know if you just don't view that email account often or if they are getting snagged as spam and you don't check the junk folder. Anyways, PLEASE send me an email to my user name at hotmail. Thank you!