Okey so wikipedia people list 3.5km maximum height for this particular piece of equipment. Why do you keep on arguing that it may or may not go as high as 5km? And why am I to trust you rather than wikipedia?
I read your link to korrespondent.net. It does not support your "Ukrainian military simply shoots all suspects" claim at all. In one spot, it says that a particular sub-division of the army is very harsh towards terrorists on block-posts. It does not prove your claim of "shelling of cities". An "infamous bombing of Luhansk" was a one-time explosion in the center of terrorists operation, and it's still not clear was it UA air strike or a misguided AA missile fired from the park nearby. And that's it? All we have thus far is speculations? I'm not saying UA army is not to blame, but if I'm to blame anybody, I need to know things for a fact. Speculations are not enough.
I can hardly call russian propaganda stuff "information". I watch plenty of their footage over e.g. youtube, and mind you, the stuff they're smoking must be fantastic. We even have a website for some of that, with disclosure - http://www.stopfake.org/en/new...
So.. Yanukovich is gone, EU association is halfway done. Now, let's get back to the "nazi scum" you keep referring to. Who are they? Are they in government? What are the actions they performed which can be classified as fascistic? This is perhaps 3rd time I'm asking for this info from you?
There was plenty of rhetoric about united country, it still goes on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... -- I assume you are Russian-speaking. For others, they are chanting "one, single, united Ukraine". The video is from May, so it's fairly recent.
A lot of people from Donbass region participated, and Poroshenko had 33% (Luhansk) and 36% (Donetsk) support - http://www.cvk.gov.ua/pls/vp20...
What I think is that the rocket is unable to reach anything beyond 3.5km and hit a target. And yes, at some point it literally stops going up and starts going down. Believe it or not -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...
Both planes were flying well above your claimed limit of 5km. Is there a point in arguing this any further?
Please advise on "Ukrainian army is not playing nice". I would love to read some articles on this.
The only foreign tv channels which are banned are russian propaganda ones. Censorship, an artifact of Yanukovich era, is now largely gone.
Perversion of "Maidan ideals"? This is typical rhetoric which pro-Russian bots started to employ some time back. Maidan was against Yanukovich, and he's gone now. Maidan was for the united country, and we are fighting for it. Maidan was never "against oligarchs" such as Kolomoyskiy. If you insist on that, please argument your claim.
Feudal society? Come on, dude.. we just elected a new President, in a landslide election, clear and cut, per strictest Democratic standards available. At this point, if anything, we are a developing Democracy.
Odessa is 90% Russian-speaking, has 30% ethnic Russian population. Along with 7 other regions, it was claimed as a part "Novorossia" by Putin himself, just a few months back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N... -- look for "April 17, 2014". It didn't work out anywhere except for two halves of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, which are presently occupied by Russian-supported, Russian-paid terrorists. Roughly 10,000 of them, in a region with ~2m population. Nobody outside of Putin's propaganda space supports any of this.
Are you defining "Russian-leaning" as "the ones controlled by terrorists"? I'm asking because a few years back, it was defined by Putin as "territories where Russian ethnic people are living".
Just one statue of Pushkin was defaced, in a mainly Russian-speaking region; it was not demolished.
So.. I am not to trust Wikipedia article which explicitly states max 3.5km height, but to take your word on this? Why should I?
Also, regardless of all of that, the facts are - a plane was shot down while flying over a terrorist-controlled zone. No UA military aircraft were in the air at the time. What is more likely - a special ops by UA military to make terrorists "look bad", or an inexperienced terrorist shooting down civil air carrier by mistake? What's worse, claiming "another AN-26 shot down" minutes before "the realization"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeriy_Heletey -- current minster of defense. Has nothing to do with the "Right sector". Please advise on your sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector -- "Right sector" has nothing to do with "Svoboda".
Who are these 8 members of "Svoboda" who hold positions in the government? Please be specific.
I am still to hear of any atrocities done by Ukrainian government related to nationalism or fascism. Please advise.
I am living in Odessa - a "russian-learning region", as you call them. Vast majority of my friends and colleagues, especially the ones who are ethnic russians, all for staying as a part of Ukraine.
During past 9 months, 50 statues of Lenin were destroyed in Ukraine. At the same time, 0 statues of Pushkin were destroyed. This means that there's no ethnic/cultural Russian-Ukrainian war going on (contrary to what Kremlin's propaganda is saying). What we have here is a war against sovietism - an old-style, autocratic/despotic governing system still maintained by Putin in Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-portable_air-defense_systems -- "aircraft flying at 6,100 metres (20,000 ft) (3.8 miles) or higher are relatively safe". AN-26 was flying at 6.5km, Malaysian Air - at 10km.
Your link to zik.ua is not a link to an official Tymchuk's info channel. There were numerous occasions where people would post some b.s. as if Tymchuk was the source. So let's stick to the sources and omit any intermediates.
The 2 planes which were shot down were AN-26 - support vehicles carrying food, etc. They were not attacking anybody, they were flying above 4km hight. Who am I not to trust BBC? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-...
Okey, here goes "Right sector", again. Who, out of UA's present government, is coming from the "Right sector"?
"Right sector"'s leader leader got <1% of votes during Presidential election in May.
Most of the people in this mystical organization are coming from Russian-speaking regions. Please inform us on the alleged crimes this organization committed since we first heard of it in January.
Apparently you are claiming that UA government said something along the lines of "Ukraine is for Ukrainians only". Please provide a proof of that. I haven't seen or heard anything like this, so please enlighten me.
Okey so I watched this video. I can see happy faces of people liberated from terrorists who held them hostage for almost 3 months. I can see people going for humanitarian aids - food mostly. I see sad faces of people who lost property, who will now have to live in a rubble for a while. I heard one accusation of UA army shelling one building, with no actual proof.
Everything I said in my previous post still checks out and you still have all your work ahead of you explaining my "ignorance"
I'm yet to see Tymchuk lie on anything. He's very cautious on everything he reports, and prefers not to disclose anything which has not been confirmed. If you have any evidence of him lying, please share.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAxpT5AikhQ -- a video from yesterday, you can clearly see two vehicles traveling, one of them is allegedly the main BUK vehicle.
Why would terrorists be in possession of a BUK system without a command vehicle? Would you say that Russian military was stupid enough to give them a gun with no bullets? (Admittedly, that is exactly what USSR did a few times during 2nd world war).
Once again, 2 military support planes were shot down in the same area in 48 hours leading to this tragedy. These planes were flying above 4km mark, which narrows things down to BUK and C300(?). So the facts are that there is a usable AA battery in the area - area controlled by pro-Russian terrorists.
"Nationalist scum that rose to power as the result of it" - sorry but who's acting nationalistic? Are there any prosecutions based on language, ethnicity, nationality?
Yes, BUK is large, slow, heavy, easy to spot. And guess what? There are numerous photos and videos of this BUK spotted in the area on the day of the tragedy.
Russia supported terrorists with tanks, armored vehicles, ammunition, grenades etc since early April. It has been confirmed by numerous sources - by locals, UA military, by terrorists themselves. What makes it unlikely for them to smuggle in a few BUK-s and a few specialists as well? Given that, after all, the major issue terrorists had do deal with was UA air forces?
Did I say 2010 elections were falsified? I mentioned I was an observer during 2004 elections, and I saw numerous falsifications during 1st and 2nd votes, but very few during the re-doing of the 2nd vote.
So, they had plenty of time, they were in position, they shot down 2 large planes in the same area in 48 hours leading to the events. It all sort of checks out?
Not trying to defend Yanukovich here, he was a dumbass and all, and a very lousy at that. All I'm arguing is that I do not understand why he fled on 22nd of Feb or so. "Berkut" police squad was still supporting him, they were still armed to the teeth; some military bases were looted but that's just a few versus the rest. I am all for his "departure", just don't understand why it happened when it happened; the only plausible explanations I can relate to are a) money gone and b) direct request from his managing director from Kreml
Maidan was not a "referendum", and Yanukovich did not leave because he was impolitely asked to. Police and military was still on his side. He simply realized that there's no more money to make.
Presidential elections in 1994, 2004, 2010 resulted in peaceful transfer of presidential seat to then-opposition. 1999 presidential elections was a very close tie. Ukraine is not proper democracy, of course, but we are clearly not on the same level with Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin -- one of main terrorist leaders is a Russian military officer. There are plenty of other Russian military among these terrorists, including specialists trained in e.g. driving armored vehicles, training local criminals for combat, performing attacks, etc. Is it so far-stretched to assume that since UA's air strikes were so effective, Russia added a few specialists along with BUK-s into the mix? 2 UA military support planes were taken down in the past 2 days, flying well over 4km height - allegedly by the same terrorists..
SOME people did not wanted to live with the rest of the country, yes. But what percentage is that? Can you argue that this "referendum" was actually representative? With people voting 8 times per day, with 103% turnout rate in Simferopol, with no access to news except for Russian ones for 2 weeks leading to this "referendum"?
Russia is yet to establish a precedent where an opposition gets into power by way of popular vote. The only way people gain power in Russia is by revolts, wars, killings, internal Kremlin politics. Democratic vote is a farce in this country, one of the methods to keep people from rioting. I actually participated as an observer during 2004 presidential elections, in Odessa. There is no such thing as democratic vote done by Yanukovich people. And the same people were involved in 2014 Crimean "referendum".
What area did you relocate your friend's family to? Not to Donetsk or Crimea, I suppose?
There's actually no contradiction here. https://twitter.com/kram_ua/st... -- this is a picture by rebels claiming that they stole BUK from UA army. Next thing that happens - this BUK is used to shoot down a civilian airplane. Now, who might also have BUKs up for grabs in the area? What other, huge country is close (within 15 miles range), is known to import vast amount of arms, tanks, missiles, etc into the terrorist-controlled territories?
At this moment it looks like BUKs were "thrown in" by Russia in order to suppress UA air strikes.
Yes, they have plenty of "grannies" "reporting" "truth" - all of this, only via russian tv news. None of that - via any other independent news sources - not Ukrainian, not EU, not US. How come?
How come none of the tens of thousands of refugees report any systematic atrocities allegedly done my UA army? How come all of them report numerous kidnappings, killings, burglaries done by terrorists and terrorists only?
How come Slovyansk and Mariupol, two cities liberated by army just recently, do not report any violence at all?
Yes, there are plenty of youtube channels created by russian propaganda people, with staged actors, numerous false footages, etc. There has been so many it made somebdy start collecting them - http://www.stopfake.org/en/new... there's an english section. Welcome to Russian propaganda!
Slashdot Mirror
Okey so wikipedia people list 3.5km maximum height for this particular piece of equipment. Why do you keep on arguing that it may or may not go as high as 5km? And why am I to trust you rather than wikipedia?
I read your link to korrespondent.net. It does not support your "Ukrainian military simply shoots all suspects" claim at all. In one spot, it says that a particular sub-division of the army is very harsh towards terrorists on block-posts. It does not prove your claim of "shelling of cities". An "infamous bombing of Luhansk" was a one-time explosion in the center of terrorists operation, and it's still not clear was it UA air strike or a misguided AA missile fired from the park nearby. And that's it? All we have thus far is speculations? I'm not saying UA army is not to blame, but if I'm to blame anybody, I need to know things for a fact. Speculations are not enough.
I can hardly call russian propaganda stuff "information". I watch plenty of their footage over e.g. youtube, and mind you, the stuff they're smoking must be fantastic. We even have a website for some of that, with disclosure - http://www.stopfake.org/en/new...
So.. Yanukovich is gone, EU association is halfway done. Now, let's get back to the "nazi scum" you keep referring to. Who are they? Are they in government? What are the actions they performed which can be classified as fascistic? This is perhaps 3rd time I'm asking for this info from you?
There was plenty of rhetoric about united country, it still goes on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... -- I assume you are Russian-speaking. For others, they are chanting "one, single, united Ukraine". The video is from May, so it's fairly recent.
A lot of people from Donbass region participated, and Poroshenko had 33% (Luhansk) and 36% (Donetsk) support - http://www.cvk.gov.ua/pls/vp20...
There was universal support and praise coming from everywhere except for Russia http://www.kyivpost.com/conten...
Do you have any links to support your claim of violations?
What I think is that the rocket is unable to reach anything beyond 3.5km and hit a target. And yes, at some point it literally stops going up and starts going down. Believe it or not -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...
Both planes were flying well above your claimed limit of 5km. Is there a point in arguing this any further?
Please advise on "Ukrainian army is not playing nice". I would love to read some articles on this.
The only foreign tv channels which are banned are russian propaganda ones. Censorship, an artifact of Yanukovich era, is now largely gone.
Perversion of "Maidan ideals"? This is typical rhetoric which pro-Russian bots started to employ some time back. Maidan was against Yanukovich, and he's gone now. Maidan was for the united country, and we are fighting for it. Maidan was never "against oligarchs" such as Kolomoyskiy. If you insist on that, please argument your claim.
Feudal society? Come on, dude.. we just elected a new President, in a landslide election, clear and cut, per strictest Democratic standards available. At this point, if anything, we are a developing Democracy.
Odessa is 90% Russian-speaking, has 30% ethnic Russian population. Along with 7 other regions, it was claimed as a part "Novorossia" by Putin himself, just a few months back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N... -- look for "April 17, 2014". It didn't work out anywhere except for two halves of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, which are presently occupied by Russian-supported, Russian-paid terrorists. Roughly 10,000 of them, in a region with ~2m population. Nobody outside of Putin's propaganda space supports any of this.
Are you defining "Russian-leaning" as "the ones controlled by terrorists"? I'm asking because a few years back, it was defined by Putin as "territories where Russian ethnic people are living".
Just one statue of Pushkin was defaced, in a mainly Russian-speaking region; it was not demolished.
So.. I am not to trust Wikipedia article which explicitly states max 3.5km height, but to take your word on this? Why should I?
Also, regardless of all of that, the facts are - a plane was shot down while flying over a terrorist-controlled zone. No UA military aircraft were in the air at the time. What is more likely - a special ops by UA military to make terrorists "look bad", or an inexperienced terrorist shooting down civil air carrier by mistake? What's worse, claiming "another AN-26 shot down" minutes before "the realization"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeriy_Heletey -- current minster of defense. Has nothing to do with the "Right sector". Please advise on your sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector -- "Right sector" has nothing to do with "Svoboda".
Who are these 8 members of "Svoboda" who hold positions in the government? Please be specific.
I am still to hear of any atrocities done by Ukrainian government related to nationalism or fascism. Please advise.
I am living in Odessa - a "russian-learning region", as you call them. Vast majority of my friends and colleagues, especially the ones who are ethnic russians, all for staying as a part of Ukraine.
During past 9 months, 50 statues of Lenin were destroyed in Ukraine. At the same time, 0 statues of Pushkin were destroyed. This means that there's no ethnic/cultural Russian-Ukrainian war going on (contrary to what Kremlin's propaganda is saying). What we have here is a war against sovietism - an old-style, autocratic/despotic governing system still maintained by Putin in Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K38_Igla -- "Flight ceiling 3.5 km (11,000 ft)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-portable_air-defense_systems -- "aircraft flying at 6,100 metres (20,000 ft) (3.8 miles) or higher are relatively safe". AN-26 was flying at 6.5km, Malaysian Air - at 10km.
Your link to zik.ua is not a link to an official Tymchuk's info channel. There were numerous occasions where people would post some b.s. as if Tymchuk was the source. So let's stick to the sources and omit any intermediates.
The 2 planes which were shot down were AN-26 - support vehicles carrying food, etc. They were not attacking anybody, they were flying above 4km hight. Who am I not to trust BBC? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-...
So it's not C300, as you say. Must be BUK then?
Okey, here goes "Right sector", again. Who, out of UA's present government, is coming from the "Right sector"?
"Right sector"'s leader leader got <1% of votes during Presidential election in May.
Most of the people in this mystical organization are coming from Russian-speaking regions. Please inform us on the alleged crimes this organization committed since we first heard of it in January.
Apparently you are claiming that UA government said something along the lines of "Ukraine is for Ukrainians only". Please provide a proof of that. I haven't seen or heard anything like this, so please enlighten me.
Okey so I watched this video. I can see happy faces of people liberated from terrorists who held them hostage for almost 3 months. I can see people going for humanitarian aids - food mostly. I see sad faces of people who lost property, who will now have to live in a rubble for a while. I heard one accusation of UA army shelling one building, with no actual proof.
Everything I said in my previous post still checks out and you still have all your work ahead of you explaining my "ignorance"
I'm yet to see Tymchuk lie on anything. He's very cautious on everything he reports, and prefers not to disclose anything which has not been confirmed. If you have any evidence of him lying, please share.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAxpT5AikhQ -- a video from yesterday, you can clearly see two vehicles traveling, one of them is allegedly the main BUK vehicle.
Why would terrorists be in possession of a BUK system without a command vehicle? Would you say that Russian military was stupid enough to give them a gun with no bullets? (Admittedly, that is exactly what USSR did a few times during 2nd world war).
Once again, 2 military support planes were shot down in the same area in 48 hours leading to this tragedy. These planes were flying above 4km mark, which narrows things down to BUK and C300(?). So the facts are that there is a usable AA battery in the area - area controlled by pro-Russian terrorists.
"Nationalist scum that rose to power as the result of it" - sorry but who's acting nationalistic? Are there any prosecutions based on language, ethnicity, nationality?
Yes, BUK is large, slow, heavy, easy to spot. And guess what? There are numerous photos and videos of this BUK spotted in the area on the day of the tragedy.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/07/17/7032237/
https://www.facebook.com/dmitr...
https://twitter.com/Dbnmjr/sta...
Russia supported terrorists with tanks, armored vehicles, ammunition, grenades etc since early April. It has been confirmed by numerous sources - by locals, UA military, by terrorists themselves. What makes it unlikely for them to smuggle in a few BUK-s and a few specialists as well? Given that, after all, the major issue terrorists had do deal with was UA air forces?
Did I say 2010 elections were falsified? I mentioned I was an observer during 2004 elections, and I saw numerous falsifications during 1st and 2nd votes, but very few during the re-doing of the 2nd vote.
So, they had plenty of time, they were in position, they shot down 2 large planes in the same area in 48 hours leading to the events. It all sort of checks out?
Not trying to defend Yanukovich here, he was a dumbass and all, and a very lousy at that. All I'm arguing is that I do not understand why he fled on 22nd of Feb or so. "Berkut" police squad was still supporting him, they were still armed to the teeth; some military bases were looted but that's just a few versus the rest. I am all for his "departure", just don't understand why it happened when it happened; the only plausible explanations I can relate to are a) money gone and b) direct request from his managing director from Kreml
Okey so you claim that my "field is distorted". Would you please comment on specifics and facts which lead to you to that conclusion?
Maidan was not a "referendum", and Yanukovich did not leave because he was impolitely asked to. Police and military was still on his side. He simply realized that there's no more money to make.
Presidential elections in 1994, 2004, 2010 resulted in peaceful transfer of presidential seat to then-opposition. 1999 presidential elections was a very close tie. Ukraine is not proper democracy, of course, but we are clearly not on the same level with Russia.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/index.html
5 minutes to arm, even less to pack and leave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin -- one of main terrorist leaders is a Russian military officer. There are plenty of other Russian military among these terrorists, including specialists trained in e.g. driving armored vehicles, training local criminals for combat, performing attacks, etc. Is it so far-stretched to assume that since UA's air strikes were so effective, Russia added a few specialists along with BUK-s into the mix? 2 UA military support planes were taken down in the past 2 days, flying well over 4km height - allegedly by the same terrorists..
SOME people did not wanted to live with the rest of the country, yes. But what percentage is that? Can you argue that this "referendum" was actually representative? With people voting 8 times per day, with 103% turnout rate in Simferopol, with no access to news except for Russian ones for 2 weeks leading to this "referendum"?
Russia is yet to establish a precedent where an opposition gets into power by way of popular vote. The only way people gain power in Russia is by revolts, wars, killings, internal Kremlin politics. Democratic vote is a farce in this country, one of the methods to keep people from rioting. I actually participated as an observer during 2004 presidential elections, in Odessa. There is no such thing as democratic vote done by Yanukovich people. And the same people were involved in 2014 Crimean "referendum".
What area did you relocate your friend's family to? Not to Donetsk or Crimea, I suppose?
There's actually no contradiction here. https://twitter.com/kram_ua/st... -- this is a picture by rebels claiming that they stole BUK from UA army. Next thing that happens - this BUK is used to shoot down a civilian airplane. Now, who might also have BUKs up for grabs in the area? What other, huge country is close (within 15 miles range), is known to import vast amount of arms, tanks, missiles, etc into the terrorist-controlled territories?
At this moment it looks like BUKs were "thrown in" by Russia in order to suppress UA air strikes.
Yes, they have plenty of "grannies" "reporting" "truth" - all of this, only via russian tv news. None of that - via any other independent news sources - not Ukrainian, not EU, not US. How come?
How come none of the tens of thousands of refugees report any systematic atrocities allegedly done my UA army? How come all of them report numerous kidnappings, killings, burglaries done by terrorists and terrorists only?
How come Slovyansk and Mariupol, two cities liberated by army just recently, do not report any violence at all?
Yes, there are plenty of youtube channels created by russian propaganda people, with staged actors, numerous false footages, etc. There has been so many it made somebdy start collecting them - http://www.stopfake.org/en/new... there's an english section. Welcome to Russian propaganda!
Somehow I think that mass support from locals is a prerequisite for a thing to be called "civil war". The word "civil" implies that?