They actually do focus on civilians - kidnapping is a huge business over there. They also torture and kill anybody who does not support their point of view. There has been numerous reports on all of this in the press, by eye witnesses, by people who escaped. These guys are not what one would call "orthodox terrorists". Do we really have to keep searching for a mildly more correct word to use?
There is no such thing as "Russian citizens in Ukraine". There are 10 million Russian-speaking, Russian ethnic people living in Ukraine, with Ukrainian passport. They are citizens of Ukraine. My home city of Odessa's population is almost 100% Russian-speaking, 30% Russian-ethnic people. And as one might expect, I have plenty of friends and co-workers who fall into this category - ethnic Russians. And they all despise what Putin is doing, they do not want to be under Kremlin control and they are all calling these "rebels" "terrorists". To a larger extent, an exact same thing is happening in all former "pro-Russian" regions of my country. You see, people are smart enough to realize that Ukrainian government is not going to be prosecuting anybody based on language or ethnicity. This is simply B.S. coming from Russian propoganda. And people are smart enough to understand that Putin's regime has nothing to do with Russian culture, and they don't actually have to be governed by Kremlin in order to be Russians culturally and ethnically. For example, take a look at Russians living in Brooklyn, NY, or in Germany. Is anybody's willing to back to modern Russia? Is there anybody who supports annexation of Crimea on anything but nationalism?
Actually I agree that "terrorists" is perhaps an incorrect word to use. What we have on our hands in Russian military invasion of Ukraine. So at this stage, I'd call them Russian mercenaries.
I wonder where German news sources get their info from. Please provide a link to e.g. tv station or news article claiming UA army atrocities.
Russian news crews are allowed in terrorist-controlled territories, Ukrainian aren't. This is why you can only rely on statements by refugees, by people from liberated cities such as Mariupol, Solvyansk and Kramatorsk, on locals filing atrocities performed by terrorists
On the "Ukrainian state is just a cradle of corruption that people on the ground try to remove once in a while only to be served another portion of the same" - hardly true. Things and times are changing, e.g. Poland made a quick de-sovietization only 20 years ago. We might as well do our anti-corruptionization. I'm not claiming that we well, I'm only pointing out that things generally don't stay the same for long.
You wouldn't believe what sort of crap Russian TV is making up. Just a few hours ago, they were spreading news of a statement by "Spanish air control technician" claiming he saw two UA fighters following this Malaysian Air flight. Their original "proof" link was to a livejournal account.
Not sure what sort of news sources you are using, it would be interesting to take a look. I am Ukrainian, living in the country in question; my news sources are - facebook posts by locals, a number of independent news sources (independent from each other, and allegedly some even from UA government), a few military journalists. None of them report any civilian deaths caused by actions of UA military, nothing systematic at least.
Let me tell you of one of the tactics these terrorists employ. They wait for UA air forces to fly by, then start firing guns and grenades around, imitating air strikes. Next, Russian TV people ("lifenews" and "russia today" mostly) arrive at the scene (usually they're there already), make some footage, interview some "locals" who support air strikes in their claims, translate that into english and voila - western world is fed with very roughly made-up "news" from war zone.
If something looks like a duck, acts like a duck then it must be a duck. I heard plenty of stories of eye witnesses, now refugees from Luhansk and Donetsk regions. Saw hours of videos, photos, TV news etc. This is not a civil war. There are roughly 10,000 armed armed terrorists paid by ex-president Yanukovich, certain oligarchs and supported by Putin. Their goals are - to further destabilize Ukraine economically, politically; chop off a few more regions if possible, keep new UA government from making any reforms, generally keep UA attached to Russia, try to save property - production plants, mines, etc. Try to save control over certain regions. And they're failing, but we still have a very, very long way to go. For instance, the whole destabilization thing is likely to go on while Putin is in power, which may or may not last for long.
Here, let me help you - https://twitter.com/kram_ua/st...
It says something along the lines - "DNR captured this BUK on 29/June/2014, from UA AA base".
Solvyansk was under terrorist's control for months, what would you expect - clean roads, fences nicely painted, lawns cut to the best English standards?
Now, take a look at typical Grozny city post-war picture here, a result of Russia's shelling their own - http://blueonbothsides.files.w...
A picture in parent post is displaying "Heaven's hundred" - a hundred people died during Feb18-20 events in Kyiv -- all pro-Ukrainian protesters. I do not understand parent's post at all; the only plausible explanation is that it's Russian propaganda bot with very basic knowledge of English, trying to make some kind of impression on/. people.
>> I, for one, live in Odessa and consider Russia to be the major aggressor in this war. Vast majority of locals think the same.
>Go ask the same question in Donetsk or Sevastopol, and you are likely to get a different answer.
That would be a bit complicated since these territories are controlled by terrorists these days. As far as I know from refugees (and we have LOTS of those coming from Donetsk and Luhansk regions), local support for terrorists is minimal. It is mostly limited to local criminals, ex- political leaders (Communist and "Party of Regions" parties).
>>We elected new president just 6 weeks ago,
>... to replace the democratically elected pro-Russian president, who was overthrown by military force. This new election was held in full knowledge that the eastern (pro-Russian) regions were in turmoil and could not meaningfully participate.
Yanukovich was not overthrown by military force. There were clashes in the center if Kiev, but police and military was on his side at the time, and they had guns, grenades, armed vehicles; rebels had one catapult and molotov's. Yanukovich didn't care about anything besides money, and he fled the country as soon as he realized that there's not much more to make. Basically, he bled Ukraine's economy in a major way - to the extent where we had a revolution with majority support from UA's population. Odessa has been one of "his" regions. Majority of locals supported President Poroshenko (new elect), same goes for all other ex-Yanukovich's regions - Nikolaev, Kherson, Zaporizhya, Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov, parts of Donetsk and Luhansk where there was no turmoil at the time.
One last bit on "democratically elected" - I participated in 2004 elections as an observer - there's no such thing as democratic vote in regions controlled by Yanukovich representatives.
I, for one, live in Odessa and consider Russia to be the major aggressor in this war. Vast majority of locals think the same. We elected new president just 6 weeks ago, so please stop making noises about illegality of UA's government. This was ridiculous at the time Russians started saying this, and it's old now.
Russian facist hunta has taken over Crimea in March, and trying to grab two more regions. This plane was shot while flying over territories controlled by pro-Russian terrorists. Get your facts straight man!
Well, the plane was shot down over territories controlled by pro-Russian terrorists. Just before noon, there was a few posts by them claiming that they have a powerful anti-aircraft missile system installed in this very area. There are videos of this, etc.. take a look -
It roughly says the following: "Anti-aircraft system BUK, on territory of anti-aircraft site PVO A1402 controlled by DNR (name of this pro-Russian terrorist organization)". Date: 29/06/2014.
We're also now getting reports on numerous posters trying to white-wash this tragedy and make it look either as if this plane was not shot, or as if it was shot down by UA air forces. Clearly, Russian propaganda machinery is in full shit-on mode.
Translating from russian...
"Near Torez (city) an An-26 airplane was just shot down, it crashed somewhere beyond "Progress" mine site.
We warned beforehand - do not fly over "our zone".
Here's another video proof of the next "birdfall".
A birdie crashed down beyond terricon (mine excavation site), missed living areas.
Population not harmed.
We also allegedly have info on another SU-25 shot down".
The median age in the Ukraine is 40, meaning half of people were born during or after 1974 and thus have no home on the Russian side of the border. So you would have them pack up and find a new city for the convenience of certain people (Crimean Tatars I think you mean) that have been living outside the area for 60 years? I can't think of how that could possibly make you any better than Josef Stalin that kicked the Tatars out of their homes in WWII, maybe worse, since he at least had the excuse of alleged Nazi collaboration.
True dat.. Physical relocation is not the way for us to get rid of those ethnic russians lobotimized by russian TV propaganda. One would think that a proper way to resolve our issues would be to perform series of democratic elections, e.g. - presidential on 25/May, then some sort of referendum regarding new constitution, and then parliament reelections sometime by the end of 2014. Too bad it's rather hard for us to persuade these people while they're holding us, majority of local ethnic ukrainians, at a gun point with kalashnikovs.
One side had 2 revolutions already that seemed to have worked for their end. Why can't the other side have their own revolution too? And to be very frank, when people *vote* and their vote is then called "illegal" by the so-called "democracies", all it does is harden their stance.
When did this "vote" took place, exactly? Would you also call what happened in Crimea in March a "vote" as well ?
I call both a typical exercise in Russia-style "democracy" - which is a comedy for observers, and a tragedy for the ones whose lives are altered by predetermined outcomes. Remind me if you please, when was the last time Russia had it's opposition gain powers as a result of a democratic elections?
Here in Ukraine, what we mean by "communism" is what Westerns know as soviet bolshevism. So my bad, and hope this makes things clearer - also in case you were wondering why we are so opposed to Putin - his rule means going back to the place our parents escaped from so happily.
Being pro-Russian ehtically and culturally does not imply being pro-Kremlin or pro-Putin. One simply can not guess anything on this matter. Proper polls and democratic referendums are the only known methods. One such poll was performed in Crimea in Feb 2014 and yielded 41% pro-Putin support. Feel free to interpret whichever way you are biast the most.. Afterall, it is the only kind of democracy russians know of - a post-war, post-election wild guessing.
"Huge" does not mean 97%. It actually does not translate into numbers at all. Proper elections do, give or take a few points.
As a russian-speaking Ukrainian, having visited Crimea over 15 times in past 10 years or so, I can not confirm any massive support for joining Russia.
A guy who was appointed as an interim PM of Crimea during referendum preparations - Axenov - had 3% support in Crimean parliament only 2 years ago. There is no democratic way he could've become PM, unless we are speaking of Russian democratic ways, of course.
The most tragic outcome here is that 85% of Crimean population are now hostages to the neo-communist regime, via a military aggression - and this happened in Europe, in 21st century.
Current Ukrainian government was voted in as intermediate by a fully legit Parliament when Yanukovich, an originally elected president, fled the country for whatever reason (and took loads of money). I see no reason whatsoever to think that the current intermediate government, which was put into place in order to conduct new presidential elections, is somehow illegit. Moreover, it is basically only Russia which, on one hand, keeps squeaking the "illegitimacy" mantra, and on another, tries to halt the election process. Sounds rather stupid, doesn't it? But there's more - Russia never in its history had a precedent of handing over its governance to an opposition as a result of democratic elections. It is truly fascinating to see them comment on Ukrainian democratic process in light of this obvious and utter hypocrisy.
Today there was another report from NBC on the ground in other towns where they interviewed Ukrainian military officials who had switched to the Russian flag. They didn't like their pay, they didn't like the hours and they were happy to switch. There were interviews with police who were being asked to arrest or shoot at the very people who had been supporting them a month earlier when everyone was against them. This wasn't Russian propaganda this was an American network representing the real grievances of the people on the ground.
Nothing of this sort had happened yesterday. A group of UA military was captured by armed "rebels", which are controlled by a small group of Russian special forces. There's an abundance of videos on youtube and news sites supporting this. Later, they escaped and got back to their military base. I happen to live in the region where these things are happening, and receive my info from multiple independent sources. Some US and other news agencies are bound to make mistakes and report things they'll have to correct later on; no correction ever does happen on Russian TV, which is always single-sided. And yes, some people are truly upset with the situation, largely thanks to these idiotic messages Kremlin kept broadcasting for the past few months - namely, once again, regarding language and ethnicity issues. Which are virtually non-existent! Consider this my live report from Odessa, a primarily Russian-speaking large city in the South of Ukraine.
I think I've given more than enough evidence that sources that if anything are biased towards the anti-Russian side investigated and found genuine discount.
All you did is a mundane recitation of what Russian TV is broadcasting. Ground reports from Ukraine do not support vast majority of their claims, including language or ethnic-related violence. I understand you built your version of Ukrainian reality based on anything but actual facts. And you are quite welcome to come to, say, Odessa, and check it out for yourself.
I'm not going to keep responding to, "This whole business of covering up a rigged poll is not impressing anybody outside of Kreml's media space.." That is clearly unequivocally and verifiably false. At this point you are simply ignoring evidence that contradicts your spin that no one believes Russians that Crimeans were unhappy.
It just so happens that these days, pro-Russian people believe what they are told by their media, rather than people who actually live in the regions in question.
So was I. I gave growth figures and comparative economic figures. Russia's economy is far smaller than EU/US (though on par with many EU countries) but is growing much faster. Showing a healthy government under Putin contrary to your comments above about shrinkage. Again GDP data is public.
Well, having done this comparison myself, I vote for making closer ties to EU/US. Russia clearly looses on the economy side of things, dramatically looses on the social side of things, and has zero support on the democratic side of things. For example, just yesterday, mayor elections were basically eliminated in this country. How's that for a fun fact? And Russian economy is highly likely to start shrinking starting 2014 - they already changed their forecast of GDP growth from 3.5% to 0.5%. This info is public and coming from Russia.
As for not having contempt for Russians I think you should read your comments in this thread.
I stand by every word that I said. My contempt is addressed directly against Putin, Kremlin, Russian government and military. In no way am I against Russian culture, language, heritage and people. For as long as, of course, they do not support war against my own home country and annexation of Crimea.
There have been border adjustments for towns between the USA and Canada. Northwest Angle Inlet (pop 102) is going through the process to move.
Border adjustments between two friendly, highly developed countries and sending 2.5m people back to neo-USSR regime are sort of very, very different things.
I'm pretty sure I can find a pretty wide diversity of sources in Russian. Ukraine internet usage is 33.7% and Russia is is 53.3% so I'd say that's rather widely available.
Internet is widely "available", but a) it's not widely used as the news source and b) most of Russian-oriented websites are filled with one-sided information, same as TV.
With comments like this I have a lot trouble understanding why you want Russians in your country at all. You obviously have contempt for them, why keep them?
I do not have any contempt for either Russians nor their culture. For instance, I read one Tolstoy book every other year. You still have all your work to do regarding argumentation to your original statement, and I cite it for convenience: The EU social structures undermine many of the cultural values that Russians want. EU basically provides all that to a wide diversity of cultural groups from all over the world. What is so special about Russians? I live in a society where roughly 30% consider themselves to be Russians ethically, and personally I have no idea of why and how these people - my friends - would be unable to fit in into the modern EU society. And guess what - some of them emigrated and live happily in e.g. Germany, US, Poland, UK, NL.
[Notwithstanding the unfoundedness of this statement, would you recommend a direct rule by Kreml as the better alternative?] No but I don't consider Russia to have the same sort of problems you do.
Does Ukraine and Crimea have to solve our own problems the way Kreml dictates ?
I could ask the same thing about Ukraine. But a few examples in IT
Relex is a huge player in software
CROC telco virtualization
Kaspersky Lab is one of the biggest software security companies in the world
Eagle Dynamics a major player in simulation...
you can google as well as I can. Clothes is another huge area for Russia. You can just look at the data on GDP it isn't just selling raw materials.
It's not a comparison of Ukraine vs Russia. As a Ukrainian, I am comparing Russia and EU/US - looking for a better partnership in (in my case) technological/IT sector. Russia did not invent search engines, anti-virus software, computer simulation stuff, clothing. It merely made copies, and a rather poor ones at that. On contrary, EU/US have been at the forefront of invention all long. Please, do yourself a favor and google for that (was this self-pun of using google intentional?).
Yes. I'm saying that the polling indicates that troubled referendum or not the measure would have passed by a huge margin. The Kiev poll you are citing was before the overthrow of the president that Crimea had voted for. The numbers I've heard were 78% in line with the Yanukovych vote in the first place. Most reputable pollsters (USA based so this is not kremlin controlled) believe that the referendum as run because it didn't offer anything other than the '92 constitution might have been much higher. I haven't heard one USA agency that doesn't think 50% was easily achievable.
Again, a mediocre wishful thinking at best. I personally visited Crimea over 15 times in past decade and not even once heard any desires or complaints or discussions regarding joining Russia or disliking Ukrainian rule.
You had said none and I personally watched NBC based reporters. CNN had 2 teams Anna Coren's and Anderson Coopers'. Amy Kellogg from FOX. Alex Marquardt from ABC. CBS had 3 teams Elizabeth Palmer's in Crimea while Charlie D’Agata and Clarissa Ward's stayed in Kiev. The BBC had a few teams... As far as I can tell anyone who wanted to cover it could.
I agree. If the international demand were for a proper election and a better process to be followed I wouldn't have an objection. If the international demand is for Crimeans to forever be part of Ukraine with no possibility for redress then I don't support it. And that is the current demand, an assertion that Crimeans have no right to secede.
By the same token, you should grant a right to secede to all sorts of communities - including small town and cities. Doesn't it sound convenient to grant secession rights based on regions?
And I don't buy your distinction that information that agrees with you is policy debate and pro-Russian stuff is propaganda leading to brainwashing. There is a functioning press and they have internet. Perfect no, good enough, yes.
The internet is available to a very limited number of people, and the information provided in Russian is mostly one-sided. I do not see how one is supposed to have a choice in this kind of arrangement.
Neo-liberalism is leading to a high degree of concentrated wealth.
... which is nowhere near to the realities of modern-day Russia. Vast majority of people in this country are poor and socially unprotected beyond anything even closely resembling modern standards.
The EU social structures undermine many of the cultural values that Russians want.
Russians are free to drink vodka and play balalaika anywhere they want, given there's no violence.
The EU democratic structure creates too many levels and thus reduces democracy to formal democracy.
Notwithstanding the unfoundedness of this statement, would you recommend a direct rule by Kreml as the better alternative? We did live through USSR and witnessed all of it's "social achievements". Thanks, but I'll pass..
Ukraine by being the border between Russia and the West could end up suffering terribly in a war, see Germany's history.
Why would be be engaged in any sort of war? Who exactly would be fighting against whom?
Better integration with the Russian educational system and access to research opportunities in Russia.
Which are virtually non-existent? What did Russia invent in the past 23 years, exactly?
etc...
Sounds like you do need to elaborate on this last item.
The GDP of Russia has gone from $200b in 1999 to over $2t today. In the same time period the USA GDP has less than doubled. I'd say they are escaping but it takes time. They have economic growth.
.. which is almost entirely based on selling natural gas and oil. As opposed to much more sophisticated and elaborate economies of, say, EU (~22T USD). US (~16.8T USD), China (~10T USD). Russia had economic growth - up until Kreml decided to wreak havoc of the international law.
That's not true. NBCnews, Washington Post, FiveThirtyEight... did an analysis and they didn't support the contention of fraud. Carl Bialik's in particular is quite good. Volodymyr Paniotto of KIIS who did polling in Ukraine for years is well respected in the west.
So you are saying 123% turnout rate in Sebastopol was a no big deal, who cares. The maximum number of pro-annexation support I heard of was 41%. This is the highest number by far. What sort of numbers do you have?
That's not true. NBCnews had people on the ground.
Why not more? Normally, elections are covered by more than 5-10 independent news agencies. How come you can only name one which is non-Russian?
Slashdot Mirror
They actually do focus on civilians - kidnapping is a huge business over there. They also torture and kill anybody who does not support their point of view. There has been numerous reports on all of this in the press, by eye witnesses, by people who escaped. These guys are not what one would call "orthodox terrorists". Do we really have to keep searching for a mildly more correct word to use?
There is no such thing as "Russian citizens in Ukraine". There are 10 million Russian-speaking, Russian ethnic people living in Ukraine, with Ukrainian passport. They are citizens of Ukraine. My home city of Odessa's population is almost 100% Russian-speaking, 30% Russian-ethnic people. And as one might expect, I have plenty of friends and co-workers who fall into this category - ethnic Russians. And they all despise what Putin is doing, they do not want to be under Kremlin control and they are all calling these "rebels" "terrorists". To a larger extent, an exact same thing is happening in all former "pro-Russian" regions of my country. You see, people are smart enough to realize that Ukrainian government is not going to be prosecuting anybody based on language or ethnicity. This is simply B.S. coming from Russian propoganda. And people are smart enough to understand that Putin's regime has nothing to do with Russian culture, and they don't actually have to be governed by Kremlin in order to be Russians culturally and ethnically. For example, take a look at Russians living in Brooklyn, NY, or in Germany. Is anybody's willing to back to modern Russia? Is there anybody who supports annexation of Crimea on anything but nationalism?
Actually I agree that "terrorists" is perhaps an incorrect word to use. What we have on our hands in Russian military invasion of Ukraine. So at this stage, I'd call them Russian mercenaries.
I wonder where German news sources get their info from. Please provide a link to e.g. tv station or news article claiming UA army atrocities.
Russian news crews are allowed in terrorist-controlled territories, Ukrainian aren't. This is why you can only rely on statements by refugees, by people from liberated cities such as Mariupol, Solvyansk and Kramatorsk, on locals filing atrocities performed by terrorists
On the "Ukrainian state is just a cradle of corruption that people on the ground try to remove once in a while only to be served another portion of the same" - hardly true. Things and times are changing, e.g. Poland made a quick de-sovietization only 20 years ago. We might as well do our anti-corruptionization. I'm not claiming that we well, I'm only pointing out that things generally don't stay the same for long.
You wouldn't believe what sort of crap Russian TV is making up. Just a few hours ago, they were spreading news of a statement by "Spanish air control technician" claiming he saw two UA fighters following this Malaysian Air flight. Their original "proof" link was to a livejournal account.
But hey, what if you just had your daily intake of vodka?
Not sure what sort of news sources you are using, it would be interesting to take a look. I am Ukrainian, living in the country in question; my news sources are - facebook posts by locals, a number of independent news sources (independent from each other, and allegedly some even from UA government), a few military journalists. None of them report any civilian deaths caused by actions of UA military, nothing systematic at least.
Let me tell you of one of the tactics these terrorists employ. They wait for UA air forces to fly by, then start firing guns and grenades around, imitating air strikes. Next, Russian TV people ("lifenews" and "russia today" mostly) arrive at the scene (usually they're there already), make some footage, interview some "locals" who support air strikes in their claims, translate that into english and voila - western world is fed with very roughly made-up "news" from war zone.
If something looks like a duck, acts like a duck then it must be a duck. I heard plenty of stories of eye witnesses, now refugees from Luhansk and Donetsk regions. Saw hours of videos, photos, TV news etc. This is not a civil war. There are roughly 10,000 armed armed terrorists paid by ex-president Yanukovich, certain oligarchs and supported by Putin. Their goals are - to further destabilize Ukraine economically, politically; chop off a few more regions if possible, keep new UA government from making any reforms, generally keep UA attached to Russia, try to save property - production plants, mines, etc. Try to save control over certain regions. And they're failing, but we still have a very, very long way to go. For instance, the whole destabilization thing is likely to go on while Putin is in power, which may or may not last for long.
Here, let me help you - https://twitter.com/kram_ua/st...
It says something along the lines - "DNR captured this BUK on 29/June/2014, from UA AA base".
Care to post a link to that vice news video?
Solvyansk was under terrorist's control for months, what would you expect - clean roads, fences nicely painted, lawns cut to the best English standards?
Now, take a look at typical Grozny city post-war picture here, a result of Russia's shelling their own - http://blueonbothsides.files.w...
A picture in parent post is displaying "Heaven's hundred" - a hundred people died during Feb18-20 events in Kyiv -- all pro-Ukrainian protesters. I do not understand parent's post at all; the only plausible explanation is that it's Russian propaganda bot with very basic knowledge of English, trying to make some kind of impression on /. people.
>> I, for one, live in Odessa and consider Russia to be the major aggressor in this war. Vast majority of locals think the same.
>Go ask the same question in Donetsk or Sevastopol, and you are likely to get a different answer.
That would be a bit complicated since these territories are controlled by terrorists these days. As far as I know from refugees (and we have LOTS of those coming from Donetsk and Luhansk regions), local support for terrorists is minimal. It is mostly limited to local criminals, ex- political leaders (Communist and "Party of Regions" parties).
>>We elected new president just 6 weeks ago,
>... to replace the democratically elected pro-Russian president, who was overthrown by military force. This new election was held in full knowledge that the eastern (pro-Russian) regions were in turmoil and could not meaningfully participate.
Yanukovich was not overthrown by military force. There were clashes in the center if Kiev, but police and military was on his side at the time, and they had guns, grenades, armed vehicles; rebels had one catapult and molotov's. Yanukovich didn't care about anything besides money, and he fled the country as soon as he realized that there's not much more to make. Basically, he bled Ukraine's economy in a major way - to the extent where we had a revolution with majority support from UA's population. Odessa has been one of "his" regions. Majority of locals supported President Poroshenko (new elect), same goes for all other ex-Yanukovich's regions - Nikolaev, Kherson, Zaporizhya, Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov, parts of Donetsk and Luhansk where there was no turmoil at the time.
One last bit on "democratically elected" - I participated in 2004 elections as an observer - there's no such thing as democratic vote in regions controlled by Yanukovich representatives.
I, for one, live in Odessa and consider Russia to be the major aggressor in this war. Vast majority of locals think the same. We elected new president just 6 weeks ago, so please stop making noises about illegality of UA's government. This was ridiculous at the time Russians started saying this, and it's old now.
Russian facist hunta has taken over Crimea in March, and trying to grab two more regions. This plane was shot while flying over territories controlled by pro-Russian terrorists. Get your facts straight man!
Well, the plane was shot down over territories controlled by pro-Russian terrorists. Just before noon, there was a few posts by them claiming that they have a powerful anti-aircraft missile system installed in this very area. There are videos of this, etc.. take a look -
https://twitter.com/kram_ua/status/489819473789333505/photo/1
It roughly says the following: "Anti-aircraft system BUK, on territory of anti-aircraft site PVO A1402 controlled by DNR (name of this pro-Russian terrorist organization)". Date: 29/06/2014.
We're also now getting reports on numerous posters trying to white-wash this tragedy and make it look either as if this plane was not shot, or as if it was shot down by UA air forces. Clearly, Russian propaganda machinery is in full shit-on mode.
Translating from russian... "Near Torez (city) an An-26 airplane was just shot down, it crashed somewhere beyond "Progress" mine site. We warned beforehand - do not fly over "our zone". Here's another video proof of the next "birdfall". A birdie crashed down beyond terricon (mine excavation site), missed living areas. Population not harmed. We also allegedly have info on another SU-25 shot down".
The median age in the Ukraine is 40, meaning half of people were born during or after 1974 and thus have no home on the Russian side of the border. So you would have them pack up and find a new city for the convenience of certain people (Crimean Tatars I think you mean) that have been living outside the area for 60 years? I can't think of how that could possibly make you any better than Josef Stalin that kicked the Tatars out of their homes in WWII, maybe worse, since he at least had the excuse of alleged Nazi collaboration.
True dat.. Physical relocation is not the way for us to get rid of those ethnic russians lobotimized by russian TV propaganda. One would think that a proper way to resolve our issues would be to perform series of democratic elections, e.g. - presidential on 25/May, then some sort of referendum regarding new constitution, and then parliament reelections sometime by the end of 2014. Too bad it's rather hard for us to persuade these people while they're holding us, majority of local ethnic ukrainians, at a gun point with kalashnikovs.
One side had 2 revolutions already that seemed to have worked for their end. Why can't the other side have their own revolution too? And to be very frank, when people *vote* and their vote is then called "illegal" by the so-called "democracies", all it does is harden their stance.
When did this "vote" took place, exactly? Would you also call what happened in Crimea in March a "vote" as well ?
I call both a typical exercise in Russia-style "democracy" - which is a comedy for observers, and a tragedy for the ones whose lives are altered by predetermined outcomes. Remind me if you please, when was the last time Russia had it's opposition gain powers as a result of a democratic elections?
Here in Ukraine, what we mean by "communism" is what Westerns know as soviet bolshevism. So my bad, and hope this makes things clearer - also in case you were wondering why we are so opposed to Putin - his rule means going back to the place our parents escaped from so happily.
Being pro-Russian ehtically and culturally does not imply being pro-Kremlin or pro-Putin. One simply can not guess anything on this matter. Proper polls and democratic referendums are the only known methods. One such poll was performed in Crimea in Feb 2014 and yielded 41% pro-Putin support. Feel free to interpret whichever way you are biast the most.. Afterall, it is the only kind of democracy russians know of - a post-war, post-election wild guessing.
"Huge" does not mean 97%. It actually does not translate into numbers at all. Proper elections do, give or take a few points. As a russian-speaking Ukrainian, having visited Crimea over 15 times in past 10 years or so, I can not confirm any massive support for joining Russia. A guy who was appointed as an interim PM of Crimea during referendum preparations - Axenov - had 3% support in Crimean parliament only 2 years ago. There is no democratic way he could've become PM, unless we are speaking of Russian democratic ways, of course. The most tragic outcome here is that 85% of Crimean population are now hostages to the neo-communist regime, via a military aggression - and this happened in Europe, in 21st century.
Current Ukrainian government was voted in as intermediate by a fully legit Parliament when Yanukovich, an originally elected president, fled the country for whatever reason (and took loads of money). I see no reason whatsoever to think that the current intermediate government, which was put into place in order to conduct new presidential elections, is somehow illegit. Moreover, it is basically only Russia which, on one hand, keeps squeaking the "illegitimacy" mantra, and on another, tries to halt the election process. Sounds rather stupid, doesn't it? But there's more - Russia never in its history had a precedent of handing over its governance to an opposition as a result of democratic elections. It is truly fascinating to see them comment on Ukrainian democratic process in light of this obvious and utter hypocrisy.
Today there was another report from NBC on the ground in other towns where they interviewed Ukrainian military officials who had switched to the Russian flag. They didn't like their pay, they didn't like the hours and they were happy to switch. There were interviews with police who were being asked to arrest or shoot at the very people who had been supporting them a month earlier when everyone was against them. This wasn't Russian propaganda this was an American network representing the real grievances of the people on the ground.
Nothing of this sort had happened yesterday. A group of UA military was captured by armed "rebels", which are controlled by a small group of Russian special forces. There's an abundance of videos on youtube and news sites supporting this. Later, they escaped and got back to their military base. I happen to live in the region where these things are happening, and receive my info from multiple independent sources. Some US and other news agencies are bound to make mistakes and report things they'll have to correct later on; no correction ever does happen on Russian TV, which is always single-sided. And yes, some people are truly upset with the situation, largely thanks to these idiotic messages Kremlin kept broadcasting for the past few months - namely, once again, regarding language and ethnicity issues. Which are virtually non-existent! Consider this my live report from Odessa, a primarily Russian-speaking large city in the South of Ukraine.
I think I've given more than enough evidence that sources that if anything are biased towards the anti-Russian side investigated and found genuine discount.
All you did is a mundane recitation of what Russian TV is broadcasting. Ground reports from Ukraine do not support vast majority of their claims, including language or ethnic-related violence. I understand you built your version of Ukrainian reality based on anything but actual facts. And you are quite welcome to come to, say, Odessa, and check it out for yourself.
I'm not going to keep responding to, "This whole business of covering up a rigged poll is not impressing anybody outside of Kreml's media space.." That is clearly unequivocally and verifiably false. At this point you are simply ignoring evidence that contradicts your spin that no one believes Russians that Crimeans were unhappy.
It just so happens that these days, pro-Russian people believe what they are told by their media, rather than people who actually live in the regions in question.
So was I. I gave growth figures and comparative economic figures. Russia's economy is far smaller than EU/US (though on par with many EU countries) but is growing much faster. Showing a healthy government under Putin contrary to your comments above about shrinkage. Again GDP data is public.
Well, having done this comparison myself, I vote for making closer ties to EU/US. Russia clearly looses on the economy side of things, dramatically looses on the social side of things, and has zero support on the democratic side of things. For example, just yesterday, mayor elections were basically eliminated in this country. How's that for a fun fact? And Russian economy is highly likely to start shrinking starting 2014 - they already changed their forecast of GDP growth from 3.5% to 0.5%. This info is public and coming from Russia.
As for not having contempt for Russians I think you should read your comments in this thread.
I stand by every word that I said. My contempt is addressed directly against Putin, Kremlin, Russian government and military. In no way am I against Russian culture, language, heritage and people. For as long as, of course, they do not support war against my own home country and annexation of Crimea.
There have been border adjustments for towns between the USA and Canada. Northwest Angle Inlet (pop 102) is going through the process to move.
...
you can google as well as I can. Clothes is another huge area for Russia. You can just look at the data on GDP it isn't just selling raw materials.
Border adjustments between two friendly, highly developed countries and sending 2.5m people back to neo-USSR regime are sort of very, very different things.
I'm pretty sure I can find a pretty wide diversity of sources in Russian. Ukraine internet usage is 33.7% and Russia is is 53.3% so I'd say that's rather widely available.
Internet is widely "available", but a) it's not widely used as the news source and b) most of Russian-oriented websites are filled with one-sided information, same as TV.
With comments like this I have a lot trouble understanding why you want Russians in your country at all. You obviously have contempt for them, why keep them?
I do not have any contempt for either Russians nor their culture. For instance, I read one Tolstoy book every other year. You still have all your work to do regarding argumentation to your original statement, and I cite it for convenience: The EU social structures undermine many of the cultural values that Russians want. EU basically provides all that to a wide diversity of cultural groups from all over the world. What is so special about Russians? I live in a society where roughly 30% consider themselves to be Russians ethically, and personally I have no idea of why and how these people - my friends - would be unable to fit in into the modern EU society. And guess what - some of them emigrated and live happily in e.g. Germany, US, Poland, UK, NL.
[Notwithstanding the unfoundedness of this statement, would you recommend a direct rule by Kreml as the better alternative?]
No but I don't consider Russia to have the same sort of problems you do.
Does Ukraine and Crimea have to solve our own problems the way Kreml dictates ?
I could ask the same thing about Ukraine. But a few examples in IT Relex is a huge player in software CROC telco virtualization Kaspersky Lab is one of the biggest software security companies in the world Eagle Dynamics a major player in simulation
It's not a comparison of Ukraine vs Russia. As a Ukrainian, I am comparing Russia and EU/US - looking for a better partnership in (in my case) technological/IT sector. Russia did not invent search engines, anti-virus software, computer simulation stuff, clothing. It merely made copies, and a rather poor ones at that. On contrary, EU/US have been at the forefront of invention all long. Please, do yourself a favor and google for that (was this self-pun of using google intentional?).
Yes. I'm saying that the polling indicates that troubled referendum or not the measure would have passed by a huge margin. The Kiev poll you are citing was before the overthrow of the president that Crimea had voted for. The numbers I've heard were 78% in line with the Yanukovych vote in the first place. Most reputable pollsters (USA based so this is not kremlin controlled) believe that the referendum as run because it didn't offer anything other than the '92 constitution might have been much higher. I haven't heard one USA agency that doesn't think 50% was easily achievable.
Again, a mediocre wishful thinking at best. I personally visited Crimea over 15 times in past decade and not even once heard any desires or complaints or discussions regarding joining Russia or disliking Ukrainian rule.
You had said none and I personally watched NBC based reporters. CNN had 2 teams Anna Coren's and Anderson Coopers'. Amy Kellogg from FOX. Alex Marquardt from ABC. CBS had 3 teams Elizabeth Palmer's in Crimea while Charlie D’Agata and Clarissa Ward's stayed in Kiev. The BBC had a few teams... As far as I can tell anyone who wanted to cover it could.
I agree. If the international demand were for a proper election and a better process to be followed I wouldn't have an objection. If the international demand is for Crimeans to forever be part of Ukraine with no possibility for redress then I don't support it. And that is the current demand, an assertion that Crimeans have no right to secede.
... which is nowhere near to the realities of modern-day Russia. Vast majority of people in this country are poor and socially unprotected beyond anything even closely resembling modern standards.
.. which is almost entirely based on selling natural gas and oil. As opposed to much more sophisticated and elaborate economies of, say, EU (~22T USD). US (~16.8T USD), China (~10T USD). Russia had economic growth - up until Kreml decided to wreak havoc of the international law.
By the same token, you should grant a right to secede to all sorts of communities - including small town and cities. Doesn't it sound convenient to grant secession rights based on regions?
And I don't buy your distinction that information that agrees with you is policy debate and pro-Russian stuff is propaganda leading to brainwashing. There is a functioning press and they have internet. Perfect no, good enough, yes.
The internet is available to a very limited number of people, and the information provided in Russian is mostly one-sided. I do not see how one is supposed to have a choice in this kind of arrangement.
Neo-liberalism is leading to a high degree of concentrated wealth.
The EU social structures undermine many of the cultural values that Russians want.
Russians are free to drink vodka and play balalaika anywhere they want, given there's no violence.
The EU democratic structure creates too many levels and thus reduces democracy to formal democracy.
Notwithstanding the unfoundedness of this statement, would you recommend a direct rule by Kreml as the better alternative? We did live through USSR and witnessed all of it's "social achievements". Thanks, but I'll pass..
Ukraine by being the border between Russia and the West could end up suffering terribly in a war, see Germany's history.
Why would be be engaged in any sort of war? Who exactly would be fighting against whom?
Better integration with the Russian educational system and access to research opportunities in Russia.
Which are virtually non-existent? What did Russia invent in the past 23 years, exactly?
etc...
Sounds like you do need to elaborate on this last item.
The GDP of Russia has gone from $200b in 1999 to over $2t today. In the same time period the USA GDP has less than doubled. I'd say they are escaping but it takes time. They have economic growth.
That's not true. NBCnews, Washington Post, FiveThirtyEight... did an analysis and they didn't support the contention of fraud. Carl Bialik's in particular is quite good. Volodymyr Paniotto of KIIS who did polling in Ukraine for years is well respected in the west.
So you are saying 123% turnout rate in Sebastopol was a no big deal, who cares. The maximum number of pro-annexation support I heard of was 41%. This is the highest number by far. What sort of numbers do you have?
That's not true. NBCnews had people on the ground.
Why not more? Normally, elections are covered by more than 5-10 independent news agencies. How come you can only name one which is non-Russian?