Those ripple effects are the reason why germany/the gov subsidized mines so long. That is one big problem of democracy. Voters don't vote themselves out of jobs, but the administration has to do something. The Ruhrgebiet was a controversial area. It simply stayed to long on heavy industry and did not really shift to knowledge industry... well, meanwhile it has - somewhat. You had the guys who hated the steel mill spitting out so much "smoke" that the skin of the cars got destroyed, or you could not have laundry outside, and on the other side the workers in the mines and the steal mills.
For an industry downturn you can often estimate a 10x higher number of indirect job losses than the direct losses associated with the plant. How the german car industry is set up at the moment, that would even go into the direction of a 100x higher number. "Lean manufacturing" here only means, no one has storage, the storage are the trucks on the road. One of the big contributors to CO2 as well.
Who's going to pay to clean up after fossil fuels? Wrong analogy. But interesting that people as your parent always see costs, but ignore the sunk costs. Obviously sunk costs can not really be recovered... most of the time.
But if they talk about batteries as storage, and ask about costs, well: how much does the stored oil in a country cost? The coal? The coal on ships, the ships carrying it. The oil on ships, the ships carrying it, same for gas.
Obviously there never was a question if you need a pipeline, a tanker ship, a train with oil tanks, storage place, rail tracks, ports etc. for said oil or coal etc. It simply grew with demand. Someone decided to build a new coal plant and some one else decided to buy/build two new coal haulers.
But now when we shift to alternatives everyone yells: who is going to pay for it? Because people are simply stupid, and easily scared. The same guy as in the example above who built coal haulers or oil tankers, or the guy who bought and operates them will build storage. As soon as you "fix the market", that storage can be integrated into the grid and the market, there will one providing it and profiting from it. May it be a classical battery, a flow battery or pumped storage, or pressured gas in old mines, or simply thermal storage...
Most gains are to be made by reduction of consumption of energy, then comes higher efficiency... before we stored oil, gas and coal etc. Now we need to store "electricity" itself... or as ersatz use pumped storage and other gravity based alternatives. There is basically no difference.
Then its time for that really big natural gas-fired power plant to fill the gap. Na, I sit outside with a jacket and a cover and have a char coal fire and a candle and read my ebooks... or switch to paper books:D
There is no cultural connection between pre-Mao and post-Mao China, merely geography.
And the language(s)... And the food... The Religion(s)... Living in family clans... Martial arts... Traditional medicine... Valuing education... Valuing hard work...
Obviously I did not talk about space flight (* shake heads *) I'm simply annoyed about the anti China hate. As if we would need another cold war... to many dumb asses on/....
Yes, my simplistic example is more important, because it is reality, and your grid handles it just fine. Then again the guys who simplify is not me, but the idiots the article you quote. And people like you with no common sense. A solar farm of 100 x 100 yards has perhaps a peak yield of 30MW. If clouds come, it is not the full 30MW that get lost instantly and need to be "rebalanced". First of all it goes down slowly, secondly it does not go to zero. Thirdly, there is usually a prognosis for the plant available, that tells the grid operator when and to what extend the plant will change its yield... minutes ahead. Then the same for a wind park: you have a 100 x 100 m grid and put 4 10MW windmills on it. If the wind changes: nothing happens. They have to big mass to directly react on the change of wind speed. However similar to the solar plant: the operators *know* in advance, minutes, if not hours, about the wind speeds. While the turbines are slowly adapting to the new wind speed, obviously a speed meter reports directly, so the grid operators know exactly in which direction the output change goes and how much it will be. Plenty of time to power up a gas plant or a pumped storage and back it up by another conventional plant later while pumped storage etc. is powered down again. So: random activity of consumers impacts the grid 100 or 1000 times stronger than "random" (which are obviously not random, when they are predicted ahead) changes of wind and solar plants outputs.
To grasp that you do not need to be an engineer. So: no idea what they wrote in the article you quoted. Germany has a contribution by renewables of about 40%. It seems the grid runs fine...
RiscOS required an Application name to start with an "!" character, e.g. !Edit. Then it was treated as an "executable" and a double click would start the "runme.bas" file (not sure about the name), which acted as a kind of shell script and started the real exe (if it itself was not the executable). You could also drag and drop files on the Application.
Really? You wrote yourself a mini OO, which can read old files, impressive:D I used OO last time about 4 years ago, wanted to introduce it in a company... but gave up after a few days daddeling with it... but I don't remember what annoyed me so much.
It is now that the last mine is closing. It was super small the last decades already, the exit from mining started around 1980... A typical mine hardly had more than 100 workers, 200 if they work in two shifts.
CO2 did not increase under Merkel. You must be an idiot. Percentage wise, Germany is the leader in CO2 reduction world wide.
Obviously you don't know that Dr. rer. nat. Angela Merkel has a PhD in Pyhsics, idiot!
Artificially raising energy prices has all sorts of negative unintended consequences. Energy prices rose around 2000 or something. Since then they are more or less stable and since about 3 years decreasing... no idea under what rock you live.
Then again: energy prices, as in ELECTRICITY are completely irrelevant for a german household, as we use not much energy. Half of the energy price already is grid costs. Grid costs don't change much, regardless how you create power. And what you forget: 75% of the energy price are taxes on CO2 and VAT.
I would rather decisions on nuclear power be made by those that understand nuclear power. Obviously. But the problem is: you believe you understand it, and hence want to be involved in the decisions. However your previous dozen posts about e.g. enriched and depleted uranium and breeding etc. p.p. show: you have no clue. So? How can we prevent people who have no clue from voting? Obviously we can't. Who will decide who has a clue and who has not? Only PhD's are allowed to decide about stuff of a certain level of severity? Who decides that level?
Your fake knowledge is based on a few bloomberg articles.... why don't you ask how much a typical german actually pays for electricity instead of waving the (wrong) 28cent number around? (I pay about â50/$60, actually a bit less - to lazy to give the correct $ value)
Most religions have in common the claim that they are true, and all others are false, and also the idea that every person has a soul, spirit or some essence that is part of or otherwise connected to a deity. If you think that, you don't know much about religions. I for my part no none that claims that it is the only one true and the others are false, or that they are true as in the sense of truth.... slightly more subtly, that certain types of people are inferior, cursed, or otherwise lesser That is one reason for the success of Islam in Asia and partly Africa. Africans converted to Islam so they could no longer be traded as slaves, ironically they became slavers them self and captured people living more inside of the continent. Many parts of Asia where heavy influenced by Hindu, or where Hindi, e.g. what is now Indonesia. So the arab traders told them: "you are all stupid, living in castes, having no power, become muslims, under Allah we are al equal!"
The soul/spirit thing is ofc the tricky part. If you do e.g. martial arts, or yoga or meditate and feel your inner energy it is hard to be not convinced that there is a "spirit" aka Qi/Chi/Ki/Prana. But from my point of view that is easy to accept without need of a religion... the universe made us like that, why would I need a god to explain my spirit?
As Kennedy said, we do these things because they are hard. China doesn't. That's not part of Chinese culture. China is known for making a million copies of something that the US designed a decade before. And yet everything you mentioned above was based on technology invented in: China! Partly 1000 years ago. E.g. Rockets.
For now, heat by itself cannot be converted into any other form of energy. That is a bit nitpicking as you pointed out before: You CAN get energy from heat differential.
But your claim is wrong anyway... of course you can convert heat energy to anything you want, problem is: you can not harvest all of it in one step.
No, you did not get it. A fridge uses about 1kW when switched on and actually cooling. 1 million fridges is... 1 million times 1 thousand... that is 1GW. 1GW is 10 times your 100+ MW generation sources. Get it now?
America has about 400 million inhabitants. No idea how many fridges you are running and how many people are actually watching the super bowl and running to the fridge at the first add... idiot.
Which part of ""mining proletariat" left" don't you get?
There is not even an automotive proletariat anymore. All industries are done by machines.
"You'll be surprised how backwards and sad it is compared to your sofa and your computer games." Haha:D I mostly live in Europe, idiot. There is nothing backward here. The other part of the year Iive in Asia, mostly Thailand, there is absolutely nothing backward here either. No idea in what shit hole you live, though.
Hint: the mining and steel industry used to have _millions_ yes, in a country of 60 million people at that time (80million now), we had _millions_ of workers in coal mines and the steel industry. Now, 2019, it is perhaps not even 10,000. If you want to call that a 'proletariat', up to you. There are probably more software engineers working at Thyssen-Krupp-Stahl than engineers/workers in actual smelters or other steel manufacturing facilities.
Slashdot Mirror
Those ripple effects are the reason why germany/the gov subsidized mines so long. That is one big problem of democracy. Voters don't vote themselves out of jobs, but the administration has to do something. The Ruhrgebiet was a controversial area. It simply stayed to long on heavy industry and did not really shift to knowledge industry ... well, meanwhile it has - somewhat. You had the guys who hated the steel mill spitting out so much "smoke" that the skin of the cars got destroyed, or you could not have laundry outside, and on the other side the workers in the mines and the steal mills.
For an industry downturn you can often estimate a 10x higher number of indirect job losses than the direct losses associated with the plant.
How the german car industry is set up at the moment, that would even go into the direction of a 100x higher number. "Lean manufacturing" here only means, no one has storage, the storage are the trucks on the road. One of the big contributors to CO2 as well.
Can I get an "Amen!"? ... very easy to pronounce correctly.
If you want an american pronounced Amen, no.
Hint: Amen is a greek word
Who's going to pay to clean up after fossil fuels? ... most of the time.
Wrong analogy. But interesting that people as your parent always see costs, but ignore the sunk costs. Obviously sunk costs can not really be recovered
But if they talk about batteries as storage, and ask about costs, well: how much does the stored oil in a country cost? The coal? The coal on ships, the ships carrying it. The oil on ships, the ships carrying it, same for gas.
Obviously there never was a question if you need a pipeline, a tanker ship, a train with oil tanks, storage place, rail tracks, ports etc. for said oil or coal etc. It simply grew with demand. Someone decided to build a new coal plant and some one else decided to buy/build two new coal haulers.
But now when we shift to alternatives everyone yells: who is going to pay for it? Because people are simply stupid, and easily scared. The same guy as in the example above who built coal haulers or oil tankers, or the guy who bought and operates them will build storage. As soon as you "fix the market", that storage can be integrated into the grid and the market, there will one providing it and profiting from it. May it be a classical battery, a flow battery or pumped storage, or pressured gas in old mines, or simply thermal storage ...
Most gains are to be made by reduction of consumption of energy, then comes higher efficiency ... before we stored oil, gas and coal etc. Now we need to store "electricity" itself ... or as ersatz use pumped storage and other gravity based alternatives. There is basically no difference.
Only our "Weltanschauung", but you don't like it :P
Then its time for that really big natural gas-fired power plant to fill the gap. ... or switch to paper books :D
Na, I sit outside with a jacket and a cover and have a char coal fire and a candle and read my ebooks
There is no cultural connection between pre-Mao and post-Mao China, merely geography.
And the language(s) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
And the food
The Religion(s)
Living in family clans
Martial arts
Traditional medicine
Valuing education
Valuing hard work
And over all: greed for money.
Obviously I did not talk about space flight (* shake heads *) ... to many dumb asses on /. ...
I'm simply annoyed about the anti China hate. As if we would need another cold war
Yeah, I know. Because a Fox and a Bunny are more "important" than a salmon and a trout. Or a crane ...
Yes, my simplistic example is more important, because it is reality, and your grid handles it just fine. ... minutes ahead.
Then again the guys who simplify is not me, but the idiots the article you quote. And people like you with no common sense.
A solar farm of 100 x 100 yards has perhaps a peak yield of 30MW. If clouds come, it is not the full 30MW that get lost instantly and need to be "rebalanced". First of all it goes down slowly, secondly it does not go to zero. Thirdly, there is usually a prognosis for the plant available, that tells the grid operator when and to what extend the plant will change its yield
Then the same for a wind park: you have a 100 x 100 m grid and put 4 10MW windmills on it. If the wind changes: nothing happens. They have to big mass to directly react on the change of wind speed. However similar to the solar plant: the operators *know* in advance, minutes, if not hours, about the wind speeds. While the turbines are slowly adapting to the new wind speed, obviously a speed meter reports directly, so the grid operators know exactly in which direction the output change goes and how much it will be. Plenty of time to power up a gas plant or a pumped storage and back it up by another conventional plant later while pumped storage etc. is powered down again.
So: random activity of consumers impacts the grid 100 or 1000 times stronger than "random" (which are obviously not random, when they are predicted ahead) changes of wind and solar plants outputs.
To grasp that you do not need to be an engineer. So: no idea what they wrote in the article you quoted. Germany has a contribution by renewables of about 40%. It seems the grid runs fine ...
RiscOS required an Application name to start with an "!" character, e.g. !Edit. Then it was treated as an "executable" and a double click would start the "runme.bas" file (not sure about the name), which acted as a kind of shell script and started the real exe (if it itself was not the executable). You could also drag and drop files on the Application.
Really? You wrote yourself a mini OO, which can read old files, impressive :D ... but gave up after a few days daddeling with it ... but I don't remember what annoyed me so much.
I used OO last time about 4 years ago, wanted to introduce it in a company
It is now that the last mine is closing. ...
It was super small the last decades already, the exit from mining started around 1980
A typical mine hardly had more than 100 workers, 200 if they work in two shifts.
CO2 did not increase under Merkel. You must be an idiot. Percentage wise, Germany is the leader in CO2 reduction world wide.
Obviously you don't know that Dr. rer. nat. Angela Merkel has a PhD in Pyhsics, idiot!
Artificially raising energy prices has all sorts of negative unintended consequences. ... no idea under what rock you live.
Energy prices rose around 2000 or something. Since then they are more or less stable and since about 3 years decreasing
Then again: energy prices, as in ELECTRICITY are completely irrelevant for a german household, as we use not much energy. Half of the energy price already is grid costs. Grid costs don't change much, regardless how you create power. And what you forget: 75% of the energy price are taxes on CO2 and VAT.
I would rather decisions on nuclear power be made by those that understand nuclear power.
Obviously. But the problem is: you believe you understand it, and hence want to be involved in the decisions. However your previous dozen posts about e.g. enriched and depleted uranium and breeding etc. p.p. show: you have no clue. So? How can we prevent people who have no clue from voting? Obviously we can't. Who will decide who has a clue and who has not? Only PhD's are allowed to decide about stuff of a certain level of severity? Who decides that level?
Your fake knowledge is based on a few bloomberg articles .... why don't you ask how much a typical german actually pays for electricity instead of waving the (wrong) 28cent number around? (I pay about â50/$60, actually a bit less - to lazy to give the correct $ value)
Most religions have in common the claim that they are true, and all others are false, and also the idea that every person has a soul, spirit or some essence that is part of or otherwise connected to a deity. ... slightly more subtly, that certain types of people are inferior, cursed, or otherwise lesser
If you think that, you don't know much about religions.
I for my part no none that claims that it is the only one true and the others are false, or that they are true as in the sense of truth.
That is one reason for the success of Islam in Asia and partly Africa. Africans converted to Islam so they could no longer be traded as slaves, ironically they became slavers them self and captured people living more inside of the continent. Many parts of Asia where heavy influenced by Hindu, or where Hindi, e.g. what is now Indonesia. So the arab traders told them: "you are all stupid, living in castes, having no power, become muslims, under Allah we are al equal!"
The soul/spirit thing is ofc the tricky part. If you do e.g. martial arts, or yoga or meditate and feel your inner energy it is hard to be not convinced that there is a "spirit" aka Qi/Chi/Ki/Prana. But from my point of view that is easy to accept without need of a religion ... the universe made us like that, why would I need a god to explain my spirit?
Haha, I did not know the word "roil", thanks!
For many applications of pumped storage 10minutes are enough.
Also you don't need to build a big one you can build several small ones.
Companies selling "grid scale" fly wheels - what ever you might mean with "grid scale" - already exist.
I live in Germany, IDIOT.
As Kennedy said, we do these things because they are hard. China doesn't. That's not part of Chinese culture. China is known for making a million copies of something that the US designed a decade before.
And yet everything you mentioned above was based on technology invented in: China!
Partly 1000 years ago. E.g. Rockets.
My I point out the obvious? You are an idiot.
For now, heat by itself cannot be converted into any other form of energy.
That is a bit nitpicking as you pointed out before: You CAN get energy from heat differential.
But your claim is wrong anyway ... of course you can convert heat energy to anything you want, problem is: you can not harvest all of it in one step.
Sigh, would you kindly explain what the second law of thermodynamics has to do with the topic? I'm keen to learn ...
Probably you meant kW and not K/W, too?
First of all, you do not need to flood a valley.
Secondly: I don't live in California.
Obviously pumped storage is not renewable ... are you mixing up pumped storage with a hoover dam?
No, you did not get it. ... 1 million times 1 thousand ... that is 1GW.
A fridge uses about 1kW when switched on and actually cooling.
1 million fridges is
1GW is 10 times your 100+ MW generation sources.
Get it now?
America has about 400 million inhabitants. No idea how many fridges you are running and how many people are actually watching the super bowl and running to the fridge at the first add ... idiot.
Which part of ""mining proletariat" left" don't you get?
There is not even an automotive proletariat anymore. All industries are done by machines.
"You'll be surprised how backwards and sad it is compared to your sofa and your computer games." :D I mostly live in Europe, idiot. There is nothing backward here. The other part of the year Iive in Asia, mostly Thailand, there is absolutely nothing backward here either. No idea in what shit hole you live, though.
Haha
Hint: the mining and steel industry used to have _millions_ yes, in a country of 60 million people at that time (80million now), we had _millions_ of workers in coal mines and the steel industry. Now, 2019, it is perhaps not even 10,000. If you want to call that a 'proletariat', up to you. There are probably more software engineers working at Thyssen-Krupp-Stahl than engineers/workers in actual smelters or other steel manufacturing facilities.