The last story I submitted that was accepted here at Slashdot was completely mangled by the editor. Don't blame the people making the submissions right away, they may have had their stories modified and misquoted by one of the wonderful editors here at Slashdot.
I do NOT think college is simply job training. That task belongs to vocational schools and apprenticeships. WHERE have I said anything that even remotely resembled that line of thinking?
I GET why you go to college. It's not about learning a repetitive task, it's about learning how to solve problems, learning established principles and theories related to the subject matter, and getting a well-rounded education. College is the next step after high school, to go beyond general subjects (like high school), and focus your learning and thinking capabilities in specialized areas, or even new areas like research.
The article was about a person asking what path to take regarding a career in CS. There are many different paths one can follow, and be successful. Some lead to college, others do not. It's a silly thing to ask in a place like this, because we really cannot judge whether the individual could succeed without going to college (what's his work background, what skills does this person have already, and what level are they at right now?). People, like you and I, can offer opinions about what worked for them, but it's almost irrelevant because we simply do not know enough about the person.
There is value in a college education where there is a need to be educated, but not all people will benefit from the four years (or more) dedicated to obtaining a degree. Those energies might be better spent going straight to the task, if they have the skills and the mind for the task. This is why I think college is not for everyone, and going to college JUST to get the degree, regardless of your circumstances and frame of mind, is worthless in some cases.
I made the comparison of a CS degree and IT certifications because I've worked with people who held both, and could barely turn on a PC. For some people, they are worthless, and wasted. I would hate for anyone to make the mistake thinking college will somehow make them a sure thing when it's time to enter the workforce.
The money issue is only one metric, and I understand that. It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but isn't relevant to what you or I are really arguing about anymore.
As far as insults go, you have no one to blame but yourself for that. I may have been a bit irritated at your constant put downs of being "beneath you", and your false assumptions of my character or experiences. Whether you mean to or not, your text comes across as sounding fairly arrogant at times. If my text sounded the same, my apologies, it was not my intention.
Okay - so you think they hold no value for someone going into CS. Then why was your original point that college degrees were not right for everyone? You stated that a college degree did not hold any value for you. Now, you're saying they hold no value for "someone" [anyone] going into CS. It's funny how I've gotten you to reveal your true thoughts on college degrees. You kept saying, "Oh, it just wasn't right for me." but now it's obvious that you are bitter that you couldn't get yourself through college and hate all those who could. What a shame.
Sorry, I should have kept specifying that I was referring to people going into CS, which was the original topic at hand.
My true thoughts on college degrees? Please elaborate on my true thoughts about college degrees for people entering the medical profession, or into a field of engineering. I'm dying to know what I think about the necessity of obtaining a college degree when it comes to something outside of CS.
Yeah, damn the man! He kept me down while I was trying to earn my college degree! Fight the power! You really have no clue. I removed myself from college so I could concentrate on improving myself on the job, ironically, working for the university.
Your point was: you didn't like college and now hate everyone who holds a college degree.
No, my point was, and always has been, a college degree isn't necessary for someone to succeed in a lot of tech jobs. You remember, that bit you kept complaining about that I kept repeating? I guess I should have repeated it a few more times, because it still hasn't sunk in for you.
But, don't let me stop you from putting words in my mouth. I wouldn't want you to get bored on Slashdot.
$51,110 vs. $29,337; over 40 years, half a million dollars difference? Yeah, not that impressive.
Must have missed that part about investing the money you would have otherwise spent on your college education while working an average paying job, and earning almost $1,000,000 more than your average college grad from a public college over the course of 40 years. The rate of return on investment in colleges is less than some bank savings accounts. You might need to go back and take some classes on remedial English comprehension, or do they not offer those types of classes in college anymore?
Your high school opinion vs. my masters opinion. Mine's better.
Glad you think so highly of your opinion. At least you seem to have a good feeling of self-worth going for you.
Yes, I think you are lying. I think you couldn't cut it at a community college.
You are certianly entitled to your opinion.
Please quote one of my posts where I said one without a degree could not be successful. Or, better yet, quote where I said that success was only measured through money. I never made either of those points.
The whole arguement is over the value of a college degree. You think they have value for someone going into CS, I am not of the same opinion. The the issue of income vs degree was raised by the person who you replied to originally, after stating that you do not need a degree in CS to be successful in an IT related field.
So, going by statistics, it's still not a safe bet. That margin (averages) of income isn't that impressive. Here are a few more articles for your reading pleasure:
There go those amazing powers of deduction, yet again. I'm glad you had a chance to measure and weigh me based on the very little information you have at your disposal. I'm sure your conclusions are sound, and you are quite satisfied to find that I am beneath you in every way. If that makes you feel a little better about yourself, so be it. Enjoy your life.
Why do you keep saying that people without college degrees can be successful when no one has claimed otherwise?
You are equating success with money earned, which is only one measurement of one type of success. I see things differently. So, you have claimed otherwise, and I will continue to refute this as long as you keep saying it.
That's interesting. You went to your local community college and couldn't handle it then, right?
Again, your amazing powers of deduction never cease to amaze me. I've never seen anyone be so far off from the truth with so much effort. I have family at this same university, one earning his BS in Mathmatics, the other is back for his PhD in Chemical Engineering. So, no, not a two-year community college. In fact, I don't remember seeing any two-year colleges in the Big Ten, the last time I looked. That clue was specifically given to narrow the type of college I was referring to originally, and was completely lost on your well educated, degree holding mind. *golf clap*
On average, those with college degrees make more than those without. Statistically speaking, over the course of my lifetime, I will make more money than you. [Pretty safe bet considering I hold a MS and you hold nothing.]
Statistically speaking, you might be right. But since I don't know your work history or income history, and you don't know mine, you'd be making a pretty silly bet. I would also be stupid to make the counter-bet against you, since I know nothing of your history. To make statements like that just shows how unprofessional you truely are, and how immature your view of the world is. I would have expected better from a college graduate who holds a masters degree.
The connection between the two bits of info about the university I was talking about will yield an answer to the quality of that university (once you find out the name). But, amazing as your powers of deduction are, you've failed to put that together yourself.
Some of those with college degrees make more money than those without. Some people who buy lotto tickets end up with more money than those without. My example is not limited to a small group of people either, and there are some very rich and well known individuals without degrees that might tell you the same.
One does not have to "hack it" in college in order to succeed in real life. You and I measure success differently.
No matter what facts I offer up about my personal life, it will not be enough to prove my point to someone like you, of that I am certian.
Your logic is interesting, I'll give you that. I see no point in reality TV. Would your interpretation of that statement lead you to believe that I hold contempt for reality TV?
I didn't choose the easy way, I choose my way. So far, my way has worked pretty darn well for me. I have no regrets regarding my lack of a degree or certification of some type.
You want to throw statistics at me, and then brush aside my indication of the size of the university I attended and then worked for? It would not be difficult to figure out which of the universities I am speaking of, if you cared at all about.
I have no logic and no point, and you're the one still replying. Maybe you need to go back to school and learn something about self control and research.
It's true, my comment was in reply to an off-topic reply to the topic at hand. Of course, you're replying to my comments, which makes the argument of my thoughts a wash, since they're apparently interesting enough to you.
At any rate, your powers of deduction are astounding. Of course, had you actually read the bit where I stated that I thought college degrees were like expensive certs, "in my eyes", you'd have realized I was yet again stating an opinion. Again, from my perspective.
I get the mission of a college. You don't get why that mission doesn't apply to some people. Everyone does not work the same when it comes to learning and becoming well rounded. And, the college I attended and later worked for has an annual attendance of over 36,000 people, so it's fairly well known (it's in the Big 10).
I hold no contempt for people who have degrees. Most of my extended family have graduated from college in a fairly wide array of fields, and I work with plenty of people who hold degrees.
My point, which you have failed to grasp, is exactly the opposite of yours (which is probably why you cannot fathom my line of thinking): For some people, there is NO value in a college degree. I am one of those people.
Congrats on your income level. Someone out there appreciates your talents.:-)
I'm not disagreeing with you one bit. I'm not saying that I haven't spent a great deal of time learning new techniques and technologies on my own. But, I am saying that I have managed to stay successful in IT without getting a degree, and I know others out there do the same.
My college experience was a waste of time, because I know I have the capability to go out and learn something new. I'm not an idiot, as some moderators and others here may think. I apologize if my text sounds arrogant, because that's also not my nature.
I do a LOT, and continue to stretch my brain so I can wrap it around new things. I'm getting back into programming after a 15 year hiatus, and it's fun. I do tons of stuff outside of IT as well, mostly mechanical work. I even ran my own web hosting company for several years (profitable at the end of the first year) before starting a family.
You do NOT have to have a degree to be successful. You have to have a good work ethic, and an open mind. Creativity is definitely required as well! Believe me, I didn't go to college, but I've put in just as much time as anyone else when it comes to getting an education. I just prefer to do it on the job, or in my own time.
The classes and ideas that were presented to me during my time at college were very out of date, by anyone's standards.
I understand what college is for. I worked at the university for seven years in a salaried position as professional staff, was faculty advisor for an automotive club on campus, and helped various family members and friends get through some rough patches while they earned their degress. My three younger brothers are well on their way to earning a handful of masters and a PhD (chemical engineering).
One of my brothers finished a bachelors and went back to farming. He is also of the same opinion that college isn't for everyone, because most of what he learned he already knew from growing up on a farm.
You are quite arrogant to think you have a clue about my life experiences. I learn just fine on my own, thanks. College is NOT for everyone, some of us can find our way without the experiences others may require.
I'm another person who doesn't understand what college is for, and while I don't make six figures at the moment, I'm not far off. I'm also still advancing professionally and technically.
College truely isn't for everyone. Been there, tried that... repeatedly.:-) I didn't flunk out, I managed to get hired on full time as a Unix admin for the university (salaried, professional staff). I didn't have time to take classes (although I tried, and hated every second of it), and the classes I did take were at least five to ten years out of date anyways.
A degree is nothing more than a very expensive cert, in my eyes.
Some people need the time in college because they don't know how to learn. Those same people are the ones who benefit from certification classes, from what I can tell.
The social networking aspect of college might help some people, but so would making friends in another city who are in your line of work (like going to a usergroup meetings).
I would not work for you, because you don't understand that people are different enough in the way they learn and operate. You also sound like a closed-minded person, which is probably just the beginning of your list of deficiencies.
No kidding. It's TV, for crying out loud! This isn't a life or death situation. Go read a freakin' book!
Or, if you wish to be part of the solution, and not part of the landscape, write to your local TV stations and start complaining! Write to their advertisers! DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE!
Educate yourself. Link includes a history of the flat earth theory, and how it was disproved using scientific methods from various people throughout the ages.
Answer the first question, and I'll give you a cookie.
I've worked with and for many scientists doing climate and atmospheric research.
Scientific method cannot be applied to the study of our planet's climate, since we cannot replicate conditions to prove or disprove anything at a 1:1 scale. All we have is our planet in realtime, and bad historical data resolution.
If you can't ever prove anything absolutely correct, you haven't proven anything. You're still dealing with theories, and hopefully more experiments that will lead to a solid answer.
Why don't you follow your own advice, and please take a seat. Preferrably in a classroom.
When I first moved here, I was pulled over because I had out of state plates. Cop probably thought I was running drugs from Colorado or something. Ran my plates, and fat fingered the number, because he said it appeared I had stolen plates. I politely asked the idiot to run them again, just to make sure... "Sorry about that."
Slashdot Mirror
The last story I submitted that was accepted here at Slashdot was completely mangled by the editor. Don't blame the people making the submissions right away, they may have had their stories modified and misquoted by one of the wonderful editors here at Slashdot.
I think we can agree that we disagree on that one. :-)
I do NOT think college is simply job training. That task belongs to vocational schools and apprenticeships. WHERE have I said anything that even remotely resembled that line of thinking?
I GET why you go to college. It's not about learning a repetitive task, it's about learning how to solve problems, learning established principles and theories related to the subject matter, and getting a well-rounded education. College is the next step after high school, to go beyond general subjects (like high school), and focus your learning and thinking capabilities in specialized areas, or even new areas like research.
The article was about a person asking what path to take regarding a career in CS. There are many different paths one can follow, and be successful. Some lead to college, others do not. It's a silly thing to ask in a place like this, because we really cannot judge whether the individual could succeed without going to college (what's his work background, what skills does this person have already, and what level are they at right now?). People, like you and I, can offer opinions about what worked for them, but it's almost irrelevant because we simply do not know enough about the person.
There is value in a college education where there is a need to be educated, but not all people will benefit from the four years (or more) dedicated to obtaining a degree. Those energies might be better spent going straight to the task, if they have the skills and the mind for the task. This is why I think college is not for everyone, and going to college JUST to get the degree, regardless of your circumstances and frame of mind, is worthless in some cases.
I made the comparison of a CS degree and IT certifications because I've worked with people who held both, and could barely turn on a PC. For some people, they are worthless, and wasted. I would hate for anyone to make the mistake thinking college will somehow make them a sure thing when it's time to enter the workforce.
The money issue is only one metric, and I understand that. It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but isn't relevant to what you or I are really arguing about anymore.
As far as insults go, you have no one to blame but yourself for that. I may have been a bit irritated at your constant put downs of being "beneath you", and your false assumptions of my character or experiences. Whether you mean to or not, your text comes across as sounding fairly arrogant at times. If my text sounded the same, my apologies, it was not my intention.
Sorry, I should have kept specifying that I was referring to people going into CS, which was the original topic at hand.
My true thoughts on college degrees? Please elaborate on my true thoughts about college degrees for people entering the medical profession, or into a field of engineering. I'm dying to know what I think about the necessity of obtaining a college degree when it comes to something outside of CS.
Yeah, damn the man! He kept me down while I was trying to earn my college degree! Fight the power! You really have no clue. I removed myself from college so I could concentrate on improving myself on the job, ironically, working for the university.
No, my point was, and always has been, a college degree isn't necessary for someone to succeed in a lot of tech jobs. You remember, that bit you kept complaining about that I kept repeating? I guess I should have repeated it a few more times, because it still hasn't sunk in for you.
But, don't let me stop you from putting words in my mouth. I wouldn't want you to get bored on Slashdot.
Must have missed that part about investing the money you would have otherwise spent on your college education while working an average paying job, and earning almost $1,000,000 more than your average college grad from a public college over the course of 40 years. The rate of return on investment in colleges is less than some bank savings accounts. You might need to go back and take some classes on remedial English comprehension, or do they not offer those types of classes in college anymore?
Glad you think so highly of your opinion. At least you seem to have a good feeling of self-worth going for you.
You are certianly entitled to your opinion.
The whole arguement is over the value of a college degree. You think they have value for someone going into CS, I am not of the same opinion. The the issue of income vs degree was raised by the person who you replied to originally, after stating that you do not need a degree in CS to be successful in an IT related field.
OK...
http://www.aboutreef.org/is-college-worth-it.html
So, going by statistics, it's still not a safe bet. That margin (averages) of income isn't that impressive. Here are a few more articles for your reading pleasure:
http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/originalCont
http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2007/02/
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/Careers/02/24/cb.no.de
There go those amazing powers of deduction, yet again. I'm glad you had a chance to measure and weigh me based on the very little information you have at your disposal. I'm sure your conclusions are sound, and you are quite satisfied to find that I am beneath you in every way. If that makes you feel a little better about yourself, so be it. Enjoy your life.
You are equating success with money earned, which is only one measurement of one type of success. I see things differently. So, you have claimed otherwise, and I will continue to refute this as long as you keep saying it.
Again, your amazing powers of deduction never cease to amaze me. I've never seen anyone be so far off from the truth with so much effort. I have family at this same university, one earning his BS in Mathmatics, the other is back for his PhD in Chemical Engineering. So, no, not a two-year community college. In fact, I don't remember seeing any two-year colleges in the Big Ten, the last time I looked. That clue was specifically given to narrow the type of college I was referring to originally, and was completely lost on your well educated, degree holding mind. *golf clap*
Statistically speaking, you might be right. But since I don't know your work history or income history, and you don't know mine, you'd be making a pretty silly bet. I would also be stupid to make the counter-bet against you, since I know nothing of your history. To make statements like that just shows how unprofessional you truely are, and how immature your view of the world is. I would have expected better from a college graduate who holds a masters degree.
Then why keep bringing it up?
The connection between the two bits of info about the university I was talking about will yield an answer to the quality of that university (once you find out the name). But, amazing as your powers of deduction are, you've failed to put that together yourself.
Some of those with college degrees make more money than those without. Some people who buy lotto tickets end up with more money than those without. My example is not limited to a small group of people either, and there are some very rich and well known individuals without degrees that might tell you the same.
One does not have to "hack it" in college in order to succeed in real life. You and I measure success differently.
No matter what facts I offer up about my personal life, it will not be enough to prove my point to someone like you, of that I am certian.
Your logic is interesting, I'll give you that. I see no point in reality TV. Would your interpretation of that statement lead you to believe that I hold contempt for reality TV?
I didn't choose the easy way, I choose my way. So far, my way has worked pretty darn well for me. I have no regrets regarding my lack of a degree or certification of some type.
You want to throw statistics at me, and then brush aside my indication of the size of the university I attended and then worked for? It would not be difficult to figure out which of the universities I am speaking of, if you cared at all about.
I have no logic and no point, and you're the one still replying. Maybe you need to go back to school and learn something about self control and research.
It's true, my comment was in reply to an off-topic reply to the topic at hand. Of course, you're replying to my comments, which makes the argument of my thoughts a wash, since they're apparently interesting enough to you.
:-)
At any rate, your powers of deduction are astounding. Of course, had you actually read the bit where I stated that I thought college degrees were like expensive certs, "in my eyes", you'd have realized I was yet again stating an opinion. Again, from my perspective.
I get the mission of a college. You don't get why that mission doesn't apply to some people. Everyone does not work the same when it comes to learning and becoming well rounded. And, the college I attended and later worked for has an annual attendance of over 36,000 people, so it's fairly well known (it's in the Big 10).
I hold no contempt for people who have degrees. Most of my extended family have graduated from college in a fairly wide array of fields, and I work with plenty of people who hold degrees.
My point, which you have failed to grasp, is exactly the opposite of yours (which is probably why you cannot fathom my line of thinking): For some people, there is NO value in a college degree. I am one of those people.
Congrats on your income level. Someone out there appreciates your talents.
Eh? I was just restating my original thoughts on the matter, that's all.
I love it how some people get so worked up over something so trivial.
I'm not disagreeing with you one bit. I'm not saying that I haven't spent a great deal of time learning new techniques and technologies on my own. But, I am saying that I have managed to stay successful in IT without getting a degree, and I know others out there do the same.
My college experience was a waste of time, because I know I have the capability to go out and learn something new. I'm not an idiot, as some moderators and others here may think. I apologize if my text sounds arrogant, because that's also not my nature.
I do a LOT, and continue to stretch my brain so I can wrap it around new things. I'm getting back into programming after a 15 year hiatus, and it's fun. I do tons of stuff outside of IT as well, mostly mechanical work. I even ran my own web hosting company for several years (profitable at the end of the first year) before starting a family.
You do NOT have to have a degree to be successful. You have to have a good work ethic, and an open mind. Creativity is definitely required as well! Believe me, I didn't go to college, but I've put in just as much time as anyone else when it comes to getting an education. I just prefer to do it on the job, or in my own time.
The classes and ideas that were presented to me during my time at college were very out of date, by anyone's standards.
I understand what college is for. I worked at the university for seven years in a salaried position as professional staff, was faculty advisor for an automotive club on campus, and helped various family members and friends get through some rough patches while they earned their degress. My three younger brothers are well on their way to earning a handful of masters and a PhD (chemical engineering).
One of my brothers finished a bachelors and went back to farming. He is also of the same opinion that college isn't for everyone, because most of what he learned he already knew from growing up on a farm.
You are quite arrogant to think you have a clue about my life experiences. I learn just fine on my own, thanks. College is NOT for everyone, some of us can find our way without the experiences others may require.
*yawn*
:-) I didn't flunk out, I managed to get hired on full time as a Unix admin for the university (salaried, professional staff). I didn't have time to take classes (although I tried, and hated every second of it), and the classes I did take were at least five to ten years out of date anyways.
I'm another person who doesn't understand what college is for, and while I don't make six figures at the moment, I'm not far off. I'm also still advancing professionally and technically.
College truely isn't for everyone. Been there, tried that... repeatedly.
A degree is nothing more than a very expensive cert, in my eyes.
Some people need the time in college because they don't know how to learn. Those same people are the ones who benefit from certification classes, from what I can tell.
The social networking aspect of college might help some people, but so would making friends in another city who are in your line of work (like going to a usergroup meetings).
I would not work for you, because you don't understand that people are different enough in the way they learn and operate. You also sound like a closed-minded person, which is probably just the beginning of your list of deficiencies.
No kidding. It's TV, for crying out loud! This isn't a life or death situation. Go read a freakin' book!
Or, if you wish to be part of the solution, and not part of the landscape, write to your local TV stations and start complaining! Write to their advertisers! DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE!
You're right... I was thinking iTunes when I typed iPod. Totally my mistake.
I don't buy iPods because I don't support a company promotes any types of DRM. There, that's a little better.
Or if the processor didn't benefit from extra cache in most applications...
No, I don't use an iPod. It's to restrictive with its DRM.
Wow. I'd love to see a citation for your "point". Otherwise, you've not convinced me of anything other than your ability to post on Slashdot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
Educate yourself. Link includes a history of the flat earth theory, and how it was disproved using scientific methods from various people throughout the ages.
Answer the first question, and I'll give you a cookie.
I've worked with and for many scientists doing climate and atmospheric research.
Scientific method cannot be applied to the study of our planet's climate, since we cannot replicate conditions to prove or disprove anything at a 1:1 scale. All we have is our planet in realtime, and bad historical data resolution.
If you can't ever prove anything absolutely correct, you haven't proven anything. You're still dealing with theories, and hopefully more experiments that will lead to a solid answer.
Why don't you follow your own advice, and please take a seat. Preferrably in a classroom.
Me too, as we're freezing to death wondering how in the world the planet ended up in another ice age.
How does satisfying a majority of people make a theory correct?
At one time, the majority of people were satisfied with the theory the earth was flat.
On Slashdot, Red October hunts you!
You forgot reality TV.
When I first moved here, I was pulled over because I had out of state plates. Cop probably thought I was running drugs from Colorado or something. Ran my plates, and fat fingered the number, because he said it appeared I had stolen plates. I politely asked the idiot to run them again, just to make sure... "Sorry about that."
What a WASTE of tax money.