Try download Squeak. It's a very easy install on any platform you're likely to be using (WinCE/NT/95/98/2000, MacOS, Linux, BSDs, BeOS, etc.) It comes with many demos, including an interactive VR authoring environment.
Fact #1 - Origin of Name
Squeak was started at Apple in 1996, and didn't move over to Disney until over a year later. The name has nothing to do with Disney, and those who came up with it are tight-lipped about its origins.
Fact #2a - Language Efficiency
The postscript problems you describe are not due to "fundamental design problems with the language". They are due to fundamental design problems with the application. You could write the same algorithm in C++, and it would still be slow. The difference would be that in C++ it would crash after running out of memory. Is this because of fundamental design problems with C++? Yeesh.
The Squeak compiler (which is written in Squeak) compiles most methods in less than 0.1 seconds. Squeak's garbage collection is well designed and efficient enough to operate incrementally without causing glitches in real-time FM sound synthesis. Try that in Java.
Fact #2b - Language Efficiency Revisited
Has anyone seen a fast implementation of Smalltalk? Well, pretty much every one of them is faster than Python (don't have benchmarks at hand). Squeak has a very fast pure bytecode interpreter, and (last time I checked) beat Python hands down in raw execution speed. Other Smalltalk implementations use JIT compilers, and are faster still.
Fact #3 - Message sends to Integers
Although Smalltalk maintains uniform semantics, arithmetic is actually implemented within the virtual machine for efficiency.
By the way, what school do you go to? It it's Georgia Tech (one of the few that uses Squeak in classes), come on up to the Squeak Lab and we can discuss this at greater length.
That's exactly what the original poster said: if it wasn't for the GPL (say, if Linux was released unde the BSD license), then Microsoft could embrace and extend with proprietary extensions.
The example you cite are all controlled by their creators, who are private individuals who care primarily about making their project the best it can be.
The original poster's (valid) point is that Sun has other motivations than making Java the best development environment that it can, namely its battle with Microsoft. Therefore, java developers might end up with a language platform that is not designed to be the best development environment, but rather one that incorporates design decisions intended to thwart Microsoft. This is quite clear in the original post; perhaps you should re-read it.
With the same argument I guess that since the police carry guns we can no longer critizise violent murderers? This is just plain silly and pathetic.
No, if the police carry guns, we can no longer criticize others who carry guns. We can still criticize those who are violent murderers.
Jam the WTO... Jam etoys.com (and /. censorship)
on
No EToy for Christmas
·
· Score: 5
(a different) AC wrote:
Nice website you have there... it would be a SHAME if something HAPPENED to it!
I'm not advocating this... But if all of the people who thought this was unfair would start just ONE ping process pointing at etoys.com, it would ruin their Christmas, too.
I was initially replying to this, but it was moderated down by the time I finished writing my post.
Actually, this seems like a plausible non-violent way to deal with the situation, and doesn't deserve the immediate down-moderation that it got. For all the/.ers who think DOS attacks are automatically wrong, take a look at how slanted this situation is against the little guy, and how the courts seem to be willing to rule for profits and against common sense, and think again.
If the powers that be had half a brain, we wouldn't have to think about stuff like this. But they don't, so we do.
Liberal minded moderators... keep an eye out for stuff like this and moderate it back up. We're part of/. too, and I for one don't buy the party line that attacks on computer systems are automatically wrong. etoys.com is using unjustifiable legal coercion, and they have no right to complain if people retaliate with a different form of coercion.
I agree with you completely. Where does CNN get their information for a story like this? The NSA is secretive and powerful enough that they could tell Congress to take a walk when Congress wanted to find out what all the money was being spent on. Yet, CNN was able to uncover the dirt? Yeah, right.
Either CNN is just exploiting the recent attention on Echelon to get more mindshare (IMHO, the more likely case), or Ted Turner had a visit from some MIB who explained how it was in their mutual best interest to run stories downplaying the effectiveness of the NSA and similar organizations
No, because some things probably won't ever be a breeze to set up. Installing an enterprise-wide computer network will need to be done by specialists for the forseeable future.
Do I think MS is a monopoly? Three years ago, I would have said yes.
But this trial is about things Microsoft did 3 years ago, not what they are doing today. Although I would disagree with you and say that Microsoft is still a monopoly today, it is important to realize that that's not what the case is about.
I also agree that it's important to influence the market through your own purchasing decisions, but I disagree that this is the only way that Microsoft should be replaced. Don't forget that the vast majority of the market isn't as informed as the/. crowd. Relying solely on word-of-mouth and personal spending would likely result in slower adoption of alternatives to M$ by the mainstream. Based on the findings of fact, this is against the interests of consumers. For example, if M$ is left free to continue to use its current tactics, we might never see Linux as an option on Dells. How can this be good for the freedom of choice of the average computer buyer?
As much as I think Squeak is absolutely the coolest thing around right now, I think that EROS is designed for things that Squeak isn't prepared to handle in the near future. For example, multithreading. Multiuser security. Etc.
As far as saying that Dan I., Alan K., etc. perfected OO, since they invented it, I might just as well say that Babbage perfected computers, since he invented them. Smalltalk doesn't have many features that some would argue are very desirable, such as multi-method dispatch.
That said, I think I'm going to fire up my image and take a look at Squeak's 3d code tonight!
Yeah, but then they have to make the extra effort. They don't have the resources to do this to people unless they have real reason to believe that you are guilty of something. This is much different from intercepting email just to see what turns up.
So maybe the NSA has a cryptanalytic attack against IDEA that effectively reduces its difficulty to that of brute-forcing an 80 bit key. That's good! Then, if they have real reason to suspect someone, they can get the evidence they need. However, they wouldn't have the resources to crack everyone's IDEA encrypted messages just for the hell of it. It's all about balances.
Are we both talking about Bill "I just levelled a country to get them to agree to the same peace terms that they would have before we bombed them" Clinton? I thought so.
Getting somewhere without compromising your ideals is a lot harder work than getting that law degree and entering politics, but the final result is a lot more desirable.
Clinton is certainly not the guy I'd use to support your argument. The fact that he "didn't inhale" (and if you believe that... but anyway) suggests that at one time, he wasn't too anti-drug. This attitude sure doesn't show up in the current War on Drugs, where a hit of acid will land you a mandatory 5-20 years (correct me if I'm wrong). There are countless other examples.
BTW, If you'd like to read some well-informed critiques of American foreign policy in Kosovo and elsewhere, check out the Z Magazine Network.
The FBI tapped his hotel room phone. Any kind of activist is likely to have a file built up on him/her. Just because it seems inane to us to spy on civil liberties groups doesn't mean that it doesn't happen regularly.
Re: Foggy thinking, and an ad hominem attack
on
BSD vs GPL
·
· Score: 1
"I think you missed the context of that quote, I was responding to someone who suggested if you don't like the license then don't use the code, I'm pointing out that GPL advocates don't necessarily live by that."
You're right, many don't. I was just a bit confused because your reply was to militant GPLers in general rather than the person who made the original post.
"Although you seem reasonable,..."
Thanks:-)
"I'm sure you'll admit that many GPL advocates are quite militant about their license, just look at any QT or APSL discussion, even this discussion, there seems to be a large number of pro-GPL people who won't even consider alternative viewpoints, they simply dismiss any criticism as FUD or flame-baiting, those are the people I am refering to there."
True, although most of them are no worse than Mike Maxwell (author of "Restrictively Unrestricted"). I'll give you BSDers the benefit of the doubt, and assume that most of y'all are better than him.
My apologies for the misunderstanding, Josh
Re: Foggy thinking, and an ad hominem attack
on
BSD vs GPL
·
· Score: 1
"If I don't like your license, I'll use your code anyway and change it to GPL,..."
Surely that's no worse than Microsoft taking BSD code and putting it in their product. How can you complain about the GPL when an expressed aim of the BSD license is to make it available for the use of those who might keep derivatives closed?
"if your license doesn't allow me to do that that, then you are a facist."
I am a GPL advocate, and I wouldn't say something like that. That's an ad hominem attack, plain and simple. I assumed that you were originally talking about the BSD license. For the reason given in response to the first quote, BSDers have nothing to complain about if someone decides to re-release under the GPL.
If we are talking about licenses in general, then it is not even legal to re-release the code under GPL if the original license doesn't permit. If it could be demonstrated that the GPLed work was derived from the original, then the GPL would be void with respect to that work.
At the worst, I would be regretful that the work was not available for reuse under the GPL, but this is no different from the BSDer who regrets that they cannot release a piece of GPLed code under a BSD license.
Slashdot Mirror
Law Enforcement can gain access to your ass, so your plan is slightly flawed there.
Try download Squeak. It's a very easy install on any platform you're likely to be using (WinCE/NT/95/98/2000, MacOS, Linux, BSDs, BeOS, etc.) It comes with many demos, including an interactive VR authoring environment.
Fact #1 - Origin of Name
Squeak was started at Apple in 1996, and didn't move over to Disney until over a year later. The name has nothing to do with Disney, and those who came up with it are tight-lipped about its origins.
Fact #2a - Language Efficiency
The postscript problems you describe are not due to "fundamental design problems with the language". They are due to fundamental design problems with the application. You could write the same algorithm in C++, and it would still be slow. The difference would be that in C++ it would crash after running out of memory. Is this because of fundamental design problems with C++? Yeesh.
The Squeak compiler (which is written in Squeak) compiles most methods in less than 0.1 seconds. Squeak's garbage collection is well designed and efficient enough to operate incrementally without causing glitches in real-time FM sound synthesis. Try that in Java.
Fact #2b - Language Efficiency Revisited
Has anyone seen a fast implementation of Smalltalk? Well, pretty much every one of them is faster than Python (don't have benchmarks at hand). Squeak has a very fast pure bytecode interpreter, and (last time I checked) beat Python hands down in raw execution speed. Other Smalltalk implementations use JIT compilers, and are faster still.
Fact #3 - Message sends to Integers
Although Smalltalk maintains uniform semantics, arithmetic is actually implemented within the virtual machine for efficiency.
By the way, what school do you go to? It it's Georgia Tech (one of the few that uses Squeak in classes), come on up to the Squeak Lab and we can discuss this at greater length.
That's exactly what the original poster said: if it wasn't for the GPL (say, if Linux was released unde the BSD license), then Microsoft could embrace and extend with proprietary extensions.
The example you cite are all controlled by their creators, who are private individuals who care primarily about making their project the best it can be.
The original poster's (valid) point is that Sun has other motivations than making Java the best development environment that it can, namely its battle with Microsoft. Therefore, java developers might end up with a language platform that is not designed to be the best development environment, but rather one that incorporates design decisions intended to thwart Microsoft. This is quite clear in the original post; perhaps you should re-read it.
I was initially replying to this, but it was moderated down by the time I finished writing my post.
Actually, this seems like a plausible non-violent way to deal with the situation, and doesn't deserve the immediate down-moderation that it got. For all the /.ers who think DOS attacks are automatically wrong, take a look at how slanted this situation is against the little guy, and how the courts seem to be willing to rule for profits and against common sense, and think again.
If the powers that be had half a brain, we wouldn't have to think about stuff like this. But they don't, so we do.
Liberal minded moderators... keep an eye out for stuff like this and moderate it back up. We're part of /. too, and I for one don't buy the party line that attacks on computer systems are automatically wrong. etoys.com is using unjustifiable legal coercion, and they have no right to complain if people retaliate with a different form of coercion.
Just like anyone who uses encryption has something to hide, right?
If I was going to a protest, I'd be a peaceful type, but that wouldn't stop me from wearing a gas mask if I thought that I'd be gassed.
Keep in mind that the NSA probably has filters to ignore any lists of suspicious word that are immediately followed by a smiley ;-)
I agree with you completely. Where does CNN get their information for a story like this? The NSA is secretive and powerful enough that they could tell Congress to take a walk when Congress wanted to find out what all the money was being spent on. Yet, CNN was able to uncover the dirt? Yeah, right.
Either CNN is just exploiting the recent attention on Echelon to get more mindshare (IMHO, the more likely case), or Ted Turner had a visit from some MIB who explained how it was in their mutual best interest to run stories downplaying the effectiveness of the NSA and similar organizations
No, because some things probably won't ever be a breeze to set up. Installing an enterprise-wide computer network will need to be done by specialists for the forseeable future.
But this trial is about things Microsoft did 3 years ago, not what they are doing today. Although I would disagree with you and say that Microsoft is still a monopoly today, it is important to realize that that's not what the case is about.
I also agree that it's important to influence the market through your own purchasing decisions, but I disagree that this is the only way that Microsoft should be replaced. Don't forget that the vast majority of the market isn't as informed as the /. crowd. Relying solely on word-of-mouth and personal spending would likely result in slower adoption of alternatives to M$ by the mainstream. Based on the findings of fact, this is against the interests of consumers. For example, if M$ is left free to continue to use its current tactics, we might never see Linux as an option on Dells. How can this be good for the freedom of choice of the average computer buyer?
As much as I think Squeak is absolutely the coolest thing around right now, I think that EROS is designed for things that Squeak isn't prepared to handle in the near future. For example, multithreading. Multiuser security. Etc.
As far as saying that Dan I., Alan K., etc. perfected OO, since they invented it, I might just as well say that Babbage perfected computers, since he invented them. Smalltalk doesn't have many features that some would argue are very desirable, such as multi-method dispatch.
That said, I think I'm going to fire up my image and take a look at Squeak's 3d code tonight!
Later,
Josh
Yeah, but then they have to make the extra effort. They don't have the resources to do this to people unless they have real reason to believe that you are guilty of something. This is much different from intercepting email just to see what turns up.
So maybe the NSA has a cryptanalytic attack against IDEA that effectively reduces its difficulty to that of brute-forcing an 80 bit key. That's good! Then, if they have real reason to suspect someone, they can get the evidence they need. However, they wouldn't have the resources to crack everyone's IDEA encrypted messages just for the hell of it. It's all about balances.
Are we both talking about Bill "I just levelled a country to get them to agree to the same peace terms that they would have before we bombed them" Clinton? I thought so.
Getting somewhere without compromising your ideals is a lot harder work than getting that law degree and entering politics, but the final result is a lot more desirable.
Clinton is certainly not the guy I'd use to support your argument. The fact that he "didn't inhale" (and if you believe that... but anyway) suggests that at one time, he wasn't too anti-drug. This attitude sure doesn't show up in the current War on Drugs, where a hit of acid will land you a mandatory 5-20 years (correct me if I'm wrong). There are countless other examples.
BTW, If you'd like to read some well-informed critiques of American foreign policy in Kosovo and elsewhere, check out the Z Magazine Network.
JoshThe FBI tapped his hotel room phone. Any kind of
activist is likely to have a file built up on
him/her. Just because it seems inane to us to
spy on civil liberties groups doesn't mean that
it doesn't happen regularly.
"I think you missed the context of that quote, I was responding to someone who suggested if you don't like the license then don't use the code, I'm pointing out that GPL advocates don't necessarily live by that."
:-)
You're right, many don't. I was just a bit confused because your reply was to militant GPLers in general rather than the person who made the original post.
"Although you seem reasonable,..."
Thanks
"I'm sure you'll admit that many GPL advocates are quite militant about their license, just look at any QT or APSL discussion, even this discussion, there seems to be a large number of pro-GPL people who won't even consider alternative viewpoints, they simply dismiss any criticism as FUD or flame-baiting, those are the people I am refering to there."
True, although most of them are no worse than Mike Maxwell (author of "Restrictively Unrestricted"). I'll give you BSDers the benefit of the doubt, and assume that most of y'all are better than him.
My apologies for the misunderstanding,
Josh
"If I don't like your license, I'll use your code anyway and change it to GPL,..."
Surely that's no worse than Microsoft taking BSD code and putting it in their product. How can you complain about the GPL when an expressed aim of the BSD license is to make it available for the use of those who might keep derivatives closed?
"if your license doesn't allow me to do that that, then you are a facist."
I am a GPL advocate, and I wouldn't say something like that. That's an ad hominem attack, plain and simple. I assumed that you were originally talking about the BSD license. For the reason given in response to the first quote, BSDers have nothing to complain about if someone decides to re-release under the GPL.
If we are talking about licenses in general, then it is not even legal to re-release the code under GPL if the original license doesn't permit. If it could be demonstrated that the GPLed work was derived from the original, then the GPL would be void with respect to that work.
At the worst, I would be regretful that the work was not available for reuse under the GPL, but this is no different from the BSDer who regrets that they cannot release a piece of GPLed code under a BSD license.
Josh