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Anti-WTO Riot, State of Emergency in Seattle
bridgette writes "The Mayor has declared a state of civil emergency, there is a curfew at 7 p.m. and the police have been using pepper spray and allegedly tear gas, paintball guns and rubber bullets." Stories are at
KOMO-TV,
MSNBC, Seattle Times,
CNN, and probably almost anywhere else you look.
As a citizen of California, I can tell you that the "proposition" measures as they go now, are pretty pointless.
It's nearly impossible, as a citizen, to get an unbiased description of what these propositions mean. We're utterly bombarded with television ads representing either side of the issue, and the one that is able to slant the truth their way the best, through lies and misrepresentation, will win. It's easy for an individual to gather the correct information, and make a sound decision, but the masses listen to these TV commercials, and vote whatever they're told to. I'm suprised that some of these special interest groups haven't hired TV stars to speak on their behalf on these commercials, because it's all sensationalism, not real information.
It makes me more sceptical about democracy, and pushes me more towards supporting a more republic styled government. A democracy is only as smart as it's people. A person is smart. People are stupid, scared animals. Especially so, the American people.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The people tearing up Seattle (look at what they did to a coffeehouse - ON CAMERA) have no political agenda. They aren't protesting the WTO. They're just sad sacks of $hit who have no respect for other people's property!
They probably don't but when was the last time you cried when something happened to Starbucks before?
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
If the people in that country don't want it (which I daresay they wouldn't, if the "proven to cause cancer" is solid science rather than another Alar scare), then obviously it can't be sold there, WTO or no WTO.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
He is a co-chair with Phil Condit, CEO of Boeing. -Larry
Yes, there are still vagrants in Occidental, although many of those are drug dealers not homeless. I serve food there every week, though, and I have personally heard many reports of homeless getting increased harrassment from the police. Certainly in the downtown core, in the state of martial law, the homeless are now gone. Luckily, SHARE, a local homeless organization, has set up two tent cities; one on Capitol Hill and one near Greenlake. (Initially, the city appeared to understand that this would be necessary. However, 2 weeks ago, city bureaucrats suddenly withdrew from tent city negotiations, apparently on orders from the mayor. The tent cities have not been broken up, but they are not city-approved.)
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Any large protest is going to contain a certain number of opportunists, nut-jobs, and agents provacateur. 'Nuff said.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
You hit the nail right on the head.
;-)
Limited Liability, via either a person, or fictious person (company)
What was the orginal debate question?
I'm figuring you are probably going to graduate with you doctoral degree and work for the highest bidder. The NSA, FBI, ATF, CIA, and DoD need really smart people just like you. I have a day job also.
The rest of us un-"clued" types don't believe the single-bullet theory from Dallas, the single-bomb theory from Oklahoma City, or the masked-suicidal-duo-in-black theory from Colombine.
I also don't believe the masked thugs in black were in Seattle just to blow off work related stress. I believe they were there for the specific purpose of instigating violence and chaos for the exact purpose of justifying police use of anti-riot force. It worked. They cleared out the downtown area so that the WTO meetings could move ahead as scheduled.
Among those protests that you feel did not lead to constructive change, do you include the Boston Tea Party?
I think we have a Tory spy here.... ;-)
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Golly gee, those police dogs and fire hoses in the civil rights days weren't provocation I guess. What a crock.
Doesn't anybody remember Bull Connor anymore?
DB
So the WTO didn't allow the US to impose trade sanctions against the EU refusing hormone treated beef.....?
Does anyone know FOR A FACT that the police fired rubber bullets?
The press has been saying that the official police statement is that no rubber bullets have been fired AT ALL (as of 6pm Nov 30).
If anyone can say that they have firsthand knowledge disputing that statement (seen with their own two eyes), then speak up please.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Last night, the Canadian Broadcast Corporation (our version of the BBC) had an interview with two Canadians that were protesting in Seattle, and with the head negotiator for the Canadian WTO delegation.
After watching this, I'm quite convinced that the protestors quite simply don't understand what it is they are protesting.
Here's the deal: In Canada, we have state-supplied health care. If you get sick or injured, the government pays for it, free of charge.
As you can probably imagine, Canadians like this - a lot. Especially when you consider the American system, where medical services are services like any other industry - like having your car repaired when it breaks down. Get sick, go bankrupt - or go untreated if you can't afford the treatment.
Anyway, the American private sector health companies would very much like to be able to do business in Canada. The Government doesn't want them in, and a large number of Canadians agree with them.
(As an aside, I don't really see the problem with allowing in private sector health care companies alongside the govenment funded central system. Perhaps it just hasn't been explained well enough to me. Oh well)
Now in the Bad Old Days before NAFTA, the WTO, and other free trade treaties and organizations, the system worked kinda like this:
HMO: Canada, we want to be able to do business in your country.
Canada: Go away.
HMO: Hello US Senator. We want to do business in Canada, but they won't let us. Here's a big bag of money.
US: Canada, let the HMOs play ball.
Canada: Go away.
US: OK, here. We're going to impose a 40% duty on all Canadian goods and materials imported into the US until you let the HMOs in.
Canada: Oh shit.
But now, thanks to the various free trade treaties, the end game is a little different:
Canada: Hey, that tariff is forbidden under [treaty name] Have a lawsuit.
US: Oh shit. HMOs, you're out of luck.
This is a GOOD THING - this protects Canada from the kind of bad behaviour that the protestors were worried about!
Furthermore, even though THE GUY DOING THE NEGOTIATIONS told them flat out that allowing the HMOs into Canada was not on the table, not open to negotiations, and would never happen, the protestors CONTINUED to insist that it was! At one point, the interview deteriorated into the Monty Python Argument Sketch.
"It's on the table!"
"No it isn't!"
"Is!"
"Isn't!"
Arrrgh! He's the negotiator! You'd think he'd know!
The more I see of these protestors, the more convinced I am that they really don't understand what they are talking about.
Similar tactics have been used for years by other groups (eg. both sides of the dispute in Northern Ireland, neo-nazi groups at european football and rugby matches), I don't see why the WTO would be any different - in fact, they've got a whole lot more money than most of those organisations.
For the record I call the labour concerns irrelevant because at heart of the matter all that is important is how much stuff the workers recieve.
That's the whole point of much of the protest: With a no-holds-barred "free trade" system, a multinational corporation can force wages to the lowest common denominator, say a Mexican maquiladora or Indonesian sweatshop where workers live in cardboard huts, working conditions are life-threatening, and union organizers are killed.
The WTO guidelines say zilch about any kind of human rights, and with economic power eclipsing national sovereignty, that factor is very important.
Lowering tarriffs can only increase the total amount of goods in a country (more goods enter the nation) and while some citizens may be demoted to lesser jobs a fluid job market will guarantee everyone is still employed and hence the country has more goods in total.
Alas, this is not true. Consider subsistence-level maize farmers in developing countries who must compete head-to-head in their LOCAL market against subsidized US growers with huge mechanized operations, now that the tariff barriers are gone. These farmers, who were poor to begin with, now cannot make a living from their farms at all because the grain prices have fallen, and become homeless unemployed burdens on an overtaxed social welfare system that was poor to start with. Moreover, the cheap US grain is now a monetary drain on the local and national economy, siphoning out currency to the US.
"Free trade" has no net benefit for these people OR their country. The sole beneficiary is the corporation. But then again, that seems to be the whole point of the "free trade" system, anyway...
"My strength is as the strength of ten men, for I am wired to the eyeballs on espresso."
You articulated this idea much better than I thought it. The Washington Post reported this morning that a "small core" of protesters were dressed all in black and wearing ski-masks and that this small core of individuals started smashing windows.
Thugs in black clothes and ski-masks? Now, where was the last place I heard about thugs in black clothing and masks? Hmmmm...?
How better to discredit a group of otherwise peaceful protesters before the American people!
If they think the WTO has its own army, I'd like to see some evidence.
If they think it is the US army, then why does the existance of the WTO matter? If the US government is willing to use the army against civilians, they don't need the excuse of the WTO to do it.
I'm just curious about these points.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
To delmoi: Incidentally, as the entire American Revolution was a protest against oppressive British rule, at some point you have to say, "the American Revolution was a protest that was:"
a. Successful
b. Unsuccessful
Now, it is possible that you are saying that only violent protests can have an effect.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Yup, the "whole world is watching" - and what I saw convinced me that the protestors really didn't have a clue what they were protesting.
I now know much more about the WTO - and I like it. Go WTO!
Of course, people should keep in mind that it was the State of California that *mandated* MTBE use in the first place...even after it was known to be harmful.
Interested in XFMail? New XFMail home page.
Ghu knows, somebody has to.
The rise of megacorps to the point where they can go head-to-head with governments is a positive development, with the potential to do for economic liberty what the tension between Crown and Church during the High Middle Ages did for intellectual liberty. While neither megacorp nor government (and, for that matter, neither crown nor church) is particularly concerned with the average individual's interests, the conflict serves to keep each in check.
To cite an example familiar to /. readers, do you really think it would have been possible to keep the government from marginalizing strong crypto if corporations didn't see a profit in being able to set up a secure global e-commerce infrastructure?
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Of course he does. If there is a willing seller, who legally owns something, and a willing buyer, no legitimate law can prevent the sale. Any law that tried to do so is morally invalid.
Then how do you account for all the governments that have been overthrown by violent revolution?
(Incidentally, including the very Nazi's you mention in your post. Many people think that the Reichstag fire was an essential part of their rise to power. This is not a question of right or wrong, just of effective political tactics.)
I have no strong feelings about the WTO, though it seems to be getting a black eye here.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Neither corporate nor government nor church intrest is for the people, but as you have pointed out they can have the side effect of helping us on occasion. The WTO has never done anything to help any of these groups except for the corporate. Corporate interest will quickly anger the people if it is not kept in check by governments. The WTO has the authority to override government interest (which is at least in a small part, the peoples interest) in the name of corporate profit. It's just bad news.
----by the editorial staff at the big dailies--
The World Trade Organization is a complicated topic, and both the talks being held and the variety of protests confronting it are far too complicated for the feeble minds of our readers to fully comprehend. We would never want to inconvenience our readers by giving them information that is complex or contrary to the opinions we've already fed you. Therefore, we're going to lie our fool tushies off during our WTO coverage.
Here's how:
- -- On the WTO Itself:
* We will repeatedly tell you, as WTO proponents do, that world trade means jobs, and that Washington state in particular depends on world trade. The implication, sometimes explicit, is that anti-WTO activists oppose world trade, which is untrue. They generally oppose the specific mechanisms--i.e., unfettered capitalism--by which the WTO governs world trade. There are many other possible ways to arrange for world trade and a globalized economy, but we won't tell you that. We also won't tell you that while trade creates jobs, the neoliberal policies of the WTO, on average, force down the wages and standards of jobs in both developed couuntries and developing ones. Behemoths like Microsoft and Boeing can outsource work to India or Mexico (respectively), where workers are paid far less than in Seattle. Eventually, wages and benefits in Seattle will have to drop to compete.
* We'll tell you that the primary beneficiaries of unfettered trade are regular folks like you and me. Not hardly. Workers at Boeing may owe their jobs to trade, and family farms may export their wares. But Boeing itself, or huge agribusiness concerns, benefit far more from free trade. In fact, policies of the WTO are part of what's driving small farmers out of business; and as mentioned above, Boeing workers can lose their jobs to cheaper overseas help. Free trade is designed to help the huge transnational corporations that can move resources around the globe at the drop of a hat. Whether it helps, or, more likely, hurts the average citizen is strictly incidental.
* The Clinton Administration cares about jobs, the environment, and labor. This is a lie told by government officials, which we will repeat uncritically. In fact, Clinton is a prime architect of the WTO, and his administration has overseen one of the greatest Wall Street booms in history- -and one of the greatest increases in the gap between incomes of the wealthy and those of average citizens. The donations of these huge corporations are what keep Clinton and Gore or Bush in office. Their policies have been a relentless sellout of the environment to huge corporations, and favoritism to those orporations over the interests of labor. They don't care about you. They think you're just so many sheep to be manipulated. We help.
* In discussing the WTO, we will focus solely on how it helps or hurts America, and ignore the rest of the world, especially developing countries. If developing countries are mentioned, we will equate the interests of a few elites with those of the country as a whole. This gives an incredibly distorted view of the true damage caused by WTO policies. We will uncritically repeat the myth that these countries are better off with the jobs provided by transnational corporations, ignoring other means of developing economies that might not remove so many resources and so much capital from these countries, and might promote greater democracy and better standards of living.
* We will repeat the accusations that WTO critics have not done their homework, without giving them any forums to display their understanding of the issues; that WTO critics are solely oppositional, without airing any of their positive proposals for promoting fairer trade; and that WTO critics are marginal members of society, without listing their mainstream supporters.
- -- On the Protests:
* You can safely take any estimate we publish of demonstration crowd sizes and multiply them by ten to arrive at a truer estimate of size. Actually, the exact multiplier is nine: first, police will reduce their estimate by a factor of three, and then we will reduce the police estimate by a further factor of three. This is to make you feel safer. It's for your own good.
* We won't lie about student walk-outs, worker sick-ins, or other efforts by ordinary workers and students to shut down Seattle as part of this protest. We'll just ignore them. They're just too difficult to quantify.
* Any "violence" that erupts will be the responsibility of the demonstators. We will ignore the "nonviolent" horses, batons, mace, pepper spray, rubber bullets, and guns brought by security forces. That's crowd control, not violence.
* We will rely almost exclusively on "official" sources--WTO organizers, the police, elected officials, and other government employees. This isn't a lie, exactly. We'll simply report their spin on the facts as the objective truth, and not report any other spin or try to synthesize competing versions of events. This will give WTO advocates the most positive possible light.
* We will marginalize demonstators wherever possible. Photos will show the most outrageous costumes, emphasizing that these are not normal people. Organizers are "paid organizers," although the Seattle Host Organization paid people, too. Foreign demonstrators will become "outside agitators." If necessary, we will redbait.
* We will emphasize conflict, property destruction, violence, and hostility. The 99% of peaceful, nonviolent demonstrator are boring. They are also much too responsible.>
* Wherever possible we will refer to anti-WTO activists as anti-trade rather than "fair trade" proponents. This makes them seem less reasonable.
* We will focus a lot on the inconvenience of demonstrations to commuters and other "ordinary citizens," as though the protesters were not ordinary and as though Seattle gridlock was not ordinary, either. This also implies that traffic reports are of equal importance to global trade issues.
* Conversely, we will NOT report the impact on Seattle's homeless of WTO organizing--namely, loss of motel and shelter space, street sweeps, and crackdowns on tent cities and other attempts at visibility. We would never ignore these demonstrations. It's too big and too exciting a story. But we will make a point wherever possible to lie so as to deny their credibility. After all, if protesters are correct and free trade is a threat to the world's environment, standard of living, and democracy, then we must be called upon to act.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
- --ETS! News Service EAT THE STATE! P.O. Box 85541 Seattle WA 98145 USA 206-903-9461 ets@scn.org
http://EatTheState.org
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * INFO * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
I don't deny that what they did was wrong. Looting is looting. But breaking into a few business and shattering a few windows in a singlular, isolated area is hardly consider "widespread".
http://www.seattleinsider.com/news/1999/12/01/wtog asmasks.html
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
The protestors were blocking anyone dressed in a suit and tie, because they didn't know who the delegates were. It wasn't a delegate that started flailing, it was some poor businessman who had nothing to do with anything.
The party's over
I was at protests both Monday and Tuesday, including the labor march Tuesday. The odd thing about the march was that it was supposed to go from the Seattle Center (Space Needle, for non-locals) to downtown and back. But once it got downtown, it basically disintegrated, losing more than half the marchers. There wasn't a good reason to go back to the Center, and the protestors downtown were urging marchers to stay, so that's what most people did.
As I left for work today, police were arresting people for sitting down in a downtown park. No other crime than 'protesting' in a 'no protest' zone. It seems to me that what it comes down to is that the WTO is so unpopular that it cannot hold its meetings in anything but a police state.
Those of you who think the union people are only interested in keeping their standard of living high should investigate what exactly the AFL-CIO was demanding in their march yesterday. They want a minimal set of standards for WTO nations, including no child labor, no forced labor, and the right of workers to freely associate (i.e., form unions). There are no demands that everyone make $20/hour, or whatever. They have, in fact, been criticized by some as being too timid. The problem is that the WTO does not allow nations/cities/states to 'discriminate' on the basis of how a good is produced. The soccer ball made by kids in Pakistan is, to them, just the same as a soccer ball made by adults. Frankly, this is appalling.
Finally, as a Seattleite, I'm dismayed but not surprised by our leaders claiming they "didn't know" this was going to happen. The same sort of demonstrations have occurred at past WTO meetings (Geneva was the last one), but they still claim they had no idea of what they were getting into. Hopefully they, along with other American and world leaders might start to get the message: the WTO is not popular, and desperately needs reforming.
They're not ignoring it. They're part of it. They're big corporations too. It's in their (and their owners') interest to ignore these things.
Just how is a media shop supposed to report on the attrocities committed by Corporation X, if X happens to own the shop?
--
Change is inevitable.
Progress is not.
START THE RIYOOOOOTTTTTTTTTT
BOOMBOOMBOOMBOOM
I haven't heard of any evidence that infection rates in cattle are increased by BGH. Can you provide a reference (to a news story at least). I'm not implying you made it up, I'd just like to evaluate the evidence for myself. If this is true, it might be a sound case for banning the stuff.
As to whether I'd eat it, I don't know. I haven't looked into it in enough detail, but I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why I shouldn't have the choice.
The evidence for whether BGH is carcinogenic is definitely not sufficient to justify a ban, despite increasingly desperate efforts by the EU to find more evidence. Studies have gone both ways, and it seems that no simple errors were made in either case. Until there is sound evidence that the stuff is a public health risk, I say give consumers the choice.
There is a very real question as to the standards of proof that need to be applied in these cases. Is the slightest suspicion sufficient ? or the balance of probabilities ? or general acceptance by the scientific community ? or beyond a reasonable doubt ? I don't know the answer - and its just as much a question for internal regulation as for import control - but I do think some clearer thinking is needed.
Well whatever you think about this, Rob's choice of news sources highlights an interesting problem. First, read the national MSNBC and CNN articles. Then read the regional KOMO and Seattle Times articles. Notice a difference? The KOMO and Times articles specifically say a handful of "anarchists" who had nothing to do with the protestors caused the violence. The protestors were even against any violence, sometimes resorting to force themselves to stop it. Now looking at the MSNBC and CNN articles, you see no distinction between the rioters and the protestors. Which would you trust more? The regional news of course. They have a bigger stake in this and will do the research. The national news just needs to look at things and come up with a story fit (in their minds) for public consumption. Who cares if it's true or not, or is a proper portrayal of events. After all, they've been doing this for years. The solution? If something's happening in a certain region, go to that region's sources first. The wonders of the internet, eh?
Exactly. What colors are your cola cans?
If Nike goes in and pays twice the local prevailing wage, the locals will be thrilled and Nike gets cheap shoes with very attentive workers and a line around the block to fill any openings. But they still make in a whole day what an American makes in 30 min.
This doesn't say as much about Nike as it does about the governments that created the situation where the general economy is so poor. Nike and the rest of these 1st world companies *raise* local wages. And they lose their trained workforce to other companies who are able to create a business plan that can outbid them for that labor by just a bit. Over the course of a few generations, these countries progress much faster with 1st world investment than without it.
The problem is the local governments aren't honest, they steal, they repress, and they use outsiders as whipping boys when the local politics go unstable.
If you want to get Nike out of a country, it's easy. Just build businesses in that country that price Nike out of the labor market. If you look at the company, they move their operations into a country as soon as it achieves a certain level of stability and when they progress to a certain higher level of economic progress, Nike moves right out again. Eventually (hopefully) they are going to run out of countries with screwed up government history and they will have to build a new business plan. It doesn't look like that's going to happen soon.
DB
For all the talk about police shooting protestors with "rubber bullets" - these aren't the good old Beruit/Belfast style rubber bullets that we know and love.
The old style rubber bullets were fired out of a shotgun or a specialized rifle, propelled by an explosive charge. Those mothers MOVED - and a head shot could sometimes kill - a combination of a high muzzle velocity, a heavy projectile, and a fairly hard rubber compound.
The rubber bullets used in Seattle are balls fired out of a paintball gun - think "superball". Smaller, lighter, slower (CO2 gun, 300FPS) and decidedly non-lethal.
I bet getting hit smarts like a sonofabitch, and leaves a nasty bruise, but it ain't gonna kill ya.
Why is lamenting something unfortunate naive? Certainly, it is naive to say that violence won't occur on these occasions, but that doesn't stop you being remorseful when it does.
and you don't hope that we have moved on as a society since then?
This is cr*p. Would you mind if I came and demonstrated outside your house and broke some windows? Damage to peoples' property certainly is violence. If the things being broken are public items, or belong to businesses, then granted it is disruptive rather than hurting peoples' feelings. Think however, about the people around when all these protests turn nasty. I've been near similar things in the past (although not quite on this scale). It's threatening - you want to get away from whereever the place is ASAP. The scene of disruption in London yesterday (see this BBC article) was near a major station. It's not nice if you're trying to get home and there's a violent mob there. That is in fact on the route I would normally take home from my holiday job. I'm glad that I don't start again until next week and so missed the disruption.
It is rather easy to tell when a protest is turning into a mob. Whilst I applaud those standing up for their right to demonstrate (even when I don't agree with their arguments), it is rather stupid to hang around once things have turned nasty. If you continue to do so, then you have yourself to blame when tear gas is fired into the crowd. Having said that, you do make some fair points about Police on occasion instigating and/or making worse violence in this situations. As you say however, these situations are very complex, and it is very difficult for them to work out what is going to happen, and who the minority are that are causing the trouble.
I wouldn't know. I think the piece of advice that I shall choose to stick in bold is:
If you feel strongly about some issue, by all means go and peacefully demonstrate. If the unfortunate happends and the thing turns violent, then move out. Let the Police do their job and arrest those responsible - those who are damaging your viewpoint by making it out to be a bunch of trouble makers.
The free market in paper and wood products in the US means that today, there is more forested land than there was when the first europeans landed here. Businesses aren't idiots. Not only are they cutting trees but they are also planting so that the future value of their lands doesn't go down.
When you don't have a free market you ted to get more pollution, more environmental degradation and less productive economic product out of the process to boot. Take a look at E. Europe and you will see that people are poorer and the environment is worse because they tried to run industrialized economies without a free market. When you do that, the 'stakeholders' that count are the ones with political clout, always a tiny minority.
DB
It was a different situation. The civil rights marches were not designed to interrupt the operation of anything. The WTO protesters have that in mind.
Nor were they goaded by police who blasted them in the face point blank with pepper spray. I bet if someone tear gassed the DC mall back during the march on Washington, you would have ended up with one HELL of a riot.
-kabloie
If there is a health risk, then yes, there is a lot to lose. Do you, therefore, advocate the use of the precautionary principle in making these public health decisions ? That is, if there is even the remotest chance of a risk, ban it ? Do you want to make crossing roads illegal (thats not rhetorical, many countries have laws against crossing except at the lights) ?
Bear in mind that the WTO has ruled *twice* on this issue, that there is insufficient evidence for a risk to justify the ban.
Silly rabbit...
Tides are local. A rising tide does lift all boats that are in the water and are where the tide is rising. Unlike the ocean though, economics is not a zero sum game. Intellectual creation allows for the very economic pie to grow, something that the anti-WTO people don't seem to realize.
DB
Maybe you feel like punching your PHB in the nose after having to put up with a day full of BS. You don't (I presume), because you know that it's wrong and illegal, and if you do you will probably be fired and go to jail.
The same principle applies to the police. There are times when force is justified (just as you would be justified in punching your PHB if he physically attacked you), and times when it isn't. When it isn't, personal irritation is no excuse.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
There are other, more appropriate forums and methods of expressing concerns than blocking up a city and starting riots.
..., these rioters knowingly put themselves in a position... I have no sympathy for these (cough) people.
But very few that can be as immediately effective as a protest. You obviously don't grasp the usefulness of being in somesone's face. I would assume after being on a mission you would understand how it is much more difficult to say "No" to a person's face than it is over the phone, or to a letter, or an e-mail.
Too bad, I hope someday you don't feel the need to make your opinion heard. And if you do, I hope, for your sake, the world at large is more open-minded than you appear to be.
Given recent accounts of police brutality (in NYC, for example), it would make some sense to not be in the area where a protest might happen--especially as a participant.
Yea, running and hiding is usually a great way to get things changed. Obviously the police (since they're wearing uniforms) are entitled to do whatever is necessary to maintain the status quo.
The most commonly accepted form is greasing a politician. Call it campaign finance. Call it graft...You can buy a politician. And it is perfectly peaceful
Well, tithe your money to Sen. Hatch and go for it. Interesting how your solution is exactly the type of behaviour the protesters are protesting against. You obviously don't get it, in more ways than one.
+&x
Could someone tell me what the hell a "rouge nation" is? I assume you mean a rogue nation from your list of 2 nations, Iraq and Serbia(actually Yugoslavia, Serbia is just one province of Yugoslavia). But what is interesting is your omission of other rogue nations like Turkey, Indonesia, Israel, Columbia and of course the USA. Now, where did you come up with your list of rogue nations and what is the definition of a rogue nation? If your definition is something like "a criminal state engaged in terrorist activity" then you must surely include the aformentioned countries in your list. However, I'll wager you are simply repeating what Washington tells you to believe. If one looks at reality (and we have brains that we can use, we don't have to believe what we are told to believe), a more accurate definition would be "any nation that deviates from or outright disobeys the orders of the powerful, namely the USA" who are of course exempt, then your list makes sense (along with Cuba, Libya and formerly Iran). It takes great effort not to see that our designated favoured clients are engaged in often much worse acts of terrorism. Compare the treatment of Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait to Israel's invasion of Lebanon or Indonesia's invasion of East Timor killing 1/3 of the population with US military and political support for 25 years! Or compare the press treatment of Milosevic's response to a province wanting independence to East Timor's struggle to be free of Indonesian occupation. Rememember, East Timor is not a part of Indonesia unlike Kosovo, but in one case we bombed the whole country escalating atrocities and on the other we had to wait for an "invitation" from the murderers to deploy a peace keeping force. There are other examples too numerous to mention here but I hope you get my point. (But I encourage you to search for the facts and convince yourself) And what has any of this to do with the events in Seattle? People are simply mobilizing against the concentration of power in general. Most of the "rogue states" in some way have resisted our plans for them and they have to be punished for their disobedience. To punish the internal population within a relatively democratic country for having the nerve to disagree with policies imposed on them requires different tactics. The powerful elite are always wary of the general population rising against their plans but they cannot simply call on a Third World dictator to slaughter union leaders, priests and other activists as they do in Columbia for example. So the first line of defense is propaganda, well researched and very effective within democratic countries as a form of population control. However, if people begin thinking for themselves and start challenging some of the doctrines, force will become an option as we see in Seattle and numerous other times throughout history. This is the latest "crisis of democracy" as the elites see it and the real fear is that it will grow in momentum and pose a serious threat to established power interests primarily by disseminating information and awakening the sleeping beast. If it does, one of two things can happen: 1) the state will make some concessions to quell the surge or 2) the state will escalate the use of physical force in an attempt to squash the resistance. The first course will be a progressive step for the majority and a step towards democracy and the other will be a victory for a handful of very wealthy people...it is a familiar struggle.
If cops behave vengefully, it hurts the police force and it makes the public see them as less than heroic. They are supposed to be trained to understand their mission, which is to maintain law and order in a situation which may turn violent. Just as people who are physical cowards should not become cops (though I make an exception for Ichabod Crane in the new Sleepy Hollow movie ;-) people with short fuses who desire revenge over "hotheaded fools" also don't make good cops. This is not because of morality or anything like that, it is because they make it more difficult for the police to do their tasks.
It's hard work to be a good cop, harder than most other jobs, I think.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Get a clue 'bout the moderation system. He's not being moderated up to 2, he *starts* at 2 because
a) he has the guts to post with his name, and
b) he has a history of posting that DID get moderated up
c) he's not clicking the "No Score +1 Bonus" that I'll do right now. {shrug}
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
While I fully support the ability of people to protest, there is a limit of how far protests can go before something must be done. It was a stated objective of many of the groups involved to shut down Seattle completely. If you want to protest, that's fine, but when you want to shut down an entire city to justify your own agenda, something has to be done. Why is it ok to block intersections and shut down a city? I don't agree with the police if they were as violent as has been said by the protesters (but the truth is probably somewhere between what the police and protesters have to say), but something had to be done. I completely support people expressing their opinion and protesting, but when you start affecting everyone in the city, whether they are involved or not, something has to be done to bring things back under control.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
Research first, conclusions later.
A small amount of research shows quite clearly that a *very* small contingent of protesters became violent (less than 1%), and that most of them were gathered peacefully until attacked by batons or tear gas. The baton attacks happening *before* there was a single window broken.
The more balanced articles seem to note that it was a peaceful protest with '20-30 anarchists dressed in black' causing the trouble.
Some of these just say "NO VIDEO". I wonder why?
Yes, but these corporations often set up shop in nations without minimum wage laws, and pay their workers barely enough to survive. Thus the poor stay poor, the middle class citizens of countries with minimum wage laws lose jobs and get poorer, while those who run the corporations get richer.
when discussing with people from the U.S. i often see a strange fear against
anything that has to do with world government. people there seem to
uncritically reject anything that has to do with international
organisations, UNO, UNICEF, etc, etc,
a lot of this rejections seem to come from right wing people. nationalists
fear about their "sovereignty". so i was a bit surprised to hear that
"anarchists" protested against the WTO. even thought "free trade" is
something that one would think big corporations would like, i think it
ultimately are right wing people who nursed those riots.
from my point of view: the USA while claiming to care for environmental
protection they do not give a shit about that. the USA is most responsible
for the emission of solutions which cause the global warming etc.. when
international organisations meet the USA always refused to agree to stronger
emission limits.. obviously in the USA where the political system makes
bribing of politicians legal and legitim big corporations have too much
influence on such matters. capitalism gone out of control.
now i guess these big corporations have an interest to foster any anti
"world government" like movements. as long as there are competing and
quarrelling national governments these governments do not have enough power
to limit the power of international corporations. especially small countries
can not afforded to do anything here. and the big country: the USA is already
bought by them..
when we look on how the USA is using their "sovereignty": an embargo on
cuba then we already know where those people who support this kind of
"sovereignty" comes from..
solving global problems needs strong cooperations between democratic
countries. international platforms are necessary for that matter. and it
needs organisations which also have the power to implement some rules on a
global scale not just idle talk. so people should not protest against this
organisations but instead should try that their government really sends
people to this organisations which support the interest of the people and
not the one of big corporations. in the case of the usa, these anarchists
should first of all riot against their own government which is largely bought
by big $$$$... implementing more democratic models like those we have in
most european countries here would be a good start there..
greetings from vienna, austria.
mond,
Whatever. Dunno 'bout you, but I'm living in a representative democracy in which one of the two legislative houses -- full of elected folks, not appointed... -- has to power to *not* ratify a treaty.
And, wouldn't you know it, one of the members of that legislative body happens to be within easy walking distance today, here for a discussion on high tech.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Whatever. Just peaceful protest, mon'?
So, it's all right if we bulldoze your home? Burn all your property? Demolish your school? All right! We're on it.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
I was playing Half Life's Counter Strike mod... turned on the news and found that it was more exciting to watch the action in real life. Great slide show at: http://www.seattleinsider.com/news/1999/11/30/slid eshow2.html -Infopimp
Reminds me of LA not too long ago..
Hehehehehe I'm Canadian... we've already had our pepper-spray scandal for the year.
I think the wto is the worst thing to come around in a long time. im glad there are people protesting it and having a "carnival against capitalism". i only wish i could be there to take part in the festivities.
Psychology News
Just how is a media shop supposed to report on the attrocities committed by Corporation X, if X happens to own the shop?
sad but true
hany
Dude! That's messed up. MTBE is harsh. I'm packin' my Vanagon, and headed North!
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
you reminded me of press in my country - slovakia.
there are basicaly two groups (but one have about 90% "market share") of press but both are just plain black & white: ours are good and others are bad. same as riot reports mentioned by you.
but here slovakia it looks like people are too tired to protest (unlike czechs) against results of our "tender revolution" - tired of dirty and filthy politics which takes place here no matter if prime minister is meciar or his opposition.
maybe it would be better if november '89 has been somehow more violent - to show the previous establisment we realy do not like them thus prevent them to reapear - as it happens now (a lot of previously hi ranks communists are now in high politics again).
hany
"...it is amazing what can happen when ...
mob mentality takes over.
Remember Tehran, 1980?
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
imagine you are citizen of some poor 3rd world country (does not matter which): you are poor and your whole income got spend to survive. can you buy some stock? no. only happy citizens of rich contries can afford such thing - to own part of copany. company, which "exploits" those poor making bareer between succesfull stock holders and poor 3rd world workers higher and higher.
and in "free market" world this bareer wont be equivalent of (only) geographical borders.
in a "corporate world" (we are heading to it) todays poor will be even more poor and todays milionair will be bilionair.... not a real solution for WHOLE world.
IMO it is better to change direction.
hany
disinformation Major media outlets (CNNonline, local TV in Boston, Reuters) and the Seattle PD are not acknowledging using rubber bullets or CS (tear) gas, despite photos, video and eyewitness accounts of the use of both. Medics have reported treating CS burns, yet CNN claims that only pepper spray is being used. I think that there is a better explanation than deliberate disinformation. It is possible that the reporter did report the truth at the time, but tear gas was used later. From what I read, the police started with pepper spray and moved up to tear gas later. The CNN article could easily have been written before the tear gas was introduced. This is more than likely since the CNN article /. linked to was posted on 8:19 EST on 30 November. When did the police start using tear gas? Also, remember that the article was probably written a good bit before it was posted to the web.
amaricens will be for sure happy buying cheaper cuban sugar.
but will amaricans be happy also with a lot of cheaper cuban workers in US? i think not.
but making free market without free labor market is anythink but good for everyone.
free market with restricted flow of people is just exploit to allow rich ones to benefit from poor ones.
maybe i'm wrong but not making everythink free (not just goods market) looks "without principle" to me.
hany
Hey all, its a Iowa State college student here... My opinion: The WTO is a terrible idea. It is an attack on workers & unions, the environment, national soverignity, farmers, small business, human rights, childrens' rights and an attack on democracy itself. Who gives the WTO the right to overrule our laws? The corrupt Republican/Democratic Establishment, that's who. They sell us out everyday, in exchange for corporate money from multinational corporations. Their cronies in the Media trys to demonize the protesters in Seattle, at the same time trying to demonize anyway with the guts to stand up and shout for Reform. Bill Clinton, Al Gore, George Bush Jr, Bill Bradely, John McCain - all supported the WTO in its CURRENT FORM, without changes. They tell us to go home, not to vote, to listen to the lying biased Big Media about how great the multinational corporations are. NBC -General Electric, CBS -WestingHouse-Viacom, ABC-Capital Cities-Disney, CNN-Time Warner- WB...all biased, and heavily involved in non-media relations, in the defense industry, in the nuclear industry, in the oil industry, etc. I recently joined the Reform Party. The Reform Party has become the third largest political party in the US, firmly dedicated to pushing power away from Big Government or Big Corporations and back into the People. We daily work togather and try to stop the vast corruption in the government. We push for the interests of the common person, the working American family. The most important goal we have is political openness, of open debate, of political reform. We push for campaign finance reform (and unlike John McCain and his watered down version, we don't fly on corporate jets and generally be snobbish). We push for an end to the One Party state. And in our founding Principles of Reform, we push for "Fair Trade" and protested against the WTO in Seattle. Here's a link to a small report from some Reformers in Seattle who protested: http://reformparty.org/news/wto.html On the http://www.reformparty.org website, you'll see our platform. We believe in working to restore power to all Americans, not just the corporations. Please those out there, who are opposed to the corporate globalization of the "World Trade Organization" completly rammed down our throats by the Establishment of the Republican/Democrat Parties, get involved in your local Reform Party chapter, or just check it out. There are local Reform Party organizations in your state, and on the national website, www.reformparty.org, there is a "state contacts" link that lists all the states, usually like this "http://washington.reformparty.org" As a college student, I've worked closely on grassroots anti-Nazi campaigns on the Internet, and as a Reformer, I believe that if students and all people join togather, and demand that our political system be opened up, not closed down, things will happen. And they won't always be the repressive police tactics of the Mayor of Seattle (a Bradely supporter). I've talked to tons of students in the last few days about the WTO...not a single one is in favor of it...our local Reform Party is also having discussion with local small unions and I've been talking to environemtalists about joining the Reform Party. Listen, the point I'm *trying* to make is that a anti-WTO protest coalition was formed in Seattle, with the likes of Pat Buchanan, Ralph Nader, and James Hoffa of the Teamsters. I invite my Green friends and the many patriotic Consitutionalists into the Reform Party...we are a national party, we have the grassroots, we're expanding, we are populist, we have black and white, Christian and pagan, young and old supporting grassroots Reform. I'm new to Slashdot, but I hope I get some feedback on the Reform Party, and refute any and all of the biased Media's propaganda on the need for Reform. If you are interested in getting into a political discussion, with a huge number of Reform Party activists around the country, send an email to grassrootsreform@egroups.com Reform Party sez "NO, WTO, NO" ISUman (whoa, today I think I'm almost tongue tied, but I'll get better)
protesters began shouting "nonviolence" and police gave up.
No. Protect extend and rebuild the environment at the same time as raising all of humanity to a standard of living better than what we enjoy currently in America. This is using today's technology and free market mechanisms, not this authoritarian "Third Way".
Life is a gamble, get used to it. You HAVE to do something in life, might as well make it worthwhile, right? Think of what you are saying, basically, that the Third World, and poorer people in the developed world, should be kept down for the benefit of the international ruling caste? The "Third Way" leaders (Clinton, Blair, Schroedinger, etc) are not interested in any "common" people, they are only interested in their helping the corporations that have granted favors to them, and to the special interests and other lobbies that dictate policy to them. If you aren't "special", or Fortune 500, they consider you nothing more than a source of money and consumption.
On your fear of environmental degradation, in the US, it's alot better than people realize. Also, do a search on "bruce sterling viridian" on your favorite search engine. Here's a good Viridian starter:
http://www.bespoke.org/viridian/
Man, do I have indigestion from this...
J05H
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
But he called the protest "a great way to educate our kids. It's democracy in action."
No. Protect extend and rebuild the environment at the same time as raising all of humanity to a standard of living better than what we enjoy currently in America. This is using today's technology and free market mechanisms, not this authoritarian "Third Way".
Life is a gamble, get used to it. You HAVE to do something in life, might as well make it worthwhile, right? Think of what you are saying, basically, that the Third World, and poorer people in the developed world, should be kept down for the benefit of the international ruling caste? The "Third Way" leaders (Clinton, Blair, Schroedinger, etc) are not interested in any "common" people, they are only interested in their helping the corporations that have granted favors to them, and to the special interests and other lobbies that dictate policy to them. If you aren't "special", or Fortune 500, they consider you nothing more than a source of money and consumption.
On your fear of environmental degradation, in the US, it's alot better than people realize. Also, do a search on "bruce sterling viridian" on your favorite search engine. Here's a good Viridian starter:
http://www.bespoke.org/viridian/
Man, do I have indigestion from this...
J05H
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
They may not be the WTO but they sure as heck have an excessive control over it. That just means that the WTO needs fixed. It doesn't mean we need riots by morons!
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
You, with the grits, get a goddamned login so at least you get to start at +1 :-)
From the sounds of it, if Ghandi had been sitting peacefully in the middle of an intersection, he would have been gassed and fired at too. It's easy to look at the short-term disruptiveness of the protests. How about looking at the long-term disruptiveness of the WTO proposals.
I don't think you've got all the facts right here:
MBG
The WTO helps keep special interests from using vote-based so-called democracy to preserve their past advantages against progess and the future.
No, the WTO is about taking laws to the lowest common denominator for the purpose of "free trade". Environmental laws, health regulations, and other things along these lines have all been considered as "trade barriers" by the WTO. Decided by small, back-room decisions with no accountability.
I'm all for world trade. I'm far from a "luddite" as you claim the anti-WTO people to be. But I'm not for allowing corporations to decide that laws passed for the good of the people should be removed because it keeps them from raking in more money. The WTO's goals are for corporate greed, and little else.
---
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
I must disagree with you:
1. The WTO *is* evolving, that is the purpose of these meetings. However, it happens slowly (you try getting 135 countries to agree on something and you'll figure out why).
The WTO is meeting to try and lengthen its already far-reaching ability to lessen our quality of life in the name of free trade.
2. If you want information go to the WTO website (http://www.wto.org) - I got it first try.
Try here. It contains many thought provoking ideas and informative (not disinformative) links.
3. The WTO *is* open, the entire set of rules is online, the reason most people don't think it's open is because they've never researched what it does. (The information is there, the people are ignorant).
The WTO is closed in the sense that average citizens have no say whatsoever in what policies the WTO should adopt.The organization exists to carry out the will of large multinational corporations.The only voice that you and I have is to protest (Seattle).All of the WTO's decisions are made in secret!
4. The only voting people attending the meetings are the representative from the member countries (usually the trade minister from the respective country). It is up to the trade minister to bring a balanced viewpoint.
I would think that the trade minister would have more of a vested interest in the concerns of corporations rather than in the welfare of the Earth.
5. Bill Gates is not even attending.
See my previous response.Seeing as he is a co-chair of the event, I believe that it would be in his best interest to attend.
-Larry
I wonder if you realize the perspective your words actually indicate.
I would have thought that based on yesterday's events, downtown Seattle would have sprouted web cams overnight like mushrooms. How difficult is it to configure a web cam and get it feeding a site?
Actually, there is such a mechanism in many states, including Washington, Oregon and California: referendum and initiative.
Trouble is, elected officials and judges are trying as hard as they can to thwart this mechanism (see Calif. Prop. 187).
Naturally, there are dangers associated with anything as purely democratic as referenda and initiatives, but some deference should be given to the will of the people in absence of any citizen's rights being violated.
Interested in XFMail? New XFMail home page.
WTF?
Are saying to make deals with the enemy?
Or are you suggesting the protestors should play poker to pass the time?
Think.
Heh..."privacy rights" Are you sure you live in Ohio? Last time I checked privacy in the USA just about DEAD my friend. There's nothing left to protest, because it's already gone. Scott McNealy was actually right about this one- we have no privacy in the USA. Don't kid yourself! You haven't had privacy in YEARS. It just gets worse and worse, and that will NOT change. A lot of this has to do with the fact that most Americans GAVE AWAY their privacy freely. I mean back in my less scrupulous days, I used to watch "friends" coerce credit card numbers out of strangers with a 2 minute phone call. People are dumb and give it away. How many times have I had to write "ass@master.com" for my e-mail address when some store wanted it as of late? Just an observation......
That's freedom to *peaceably* assemble.
For God's sake, my friend . . . You refer to the Klan letting the anti-Klan protesters discredit themselves w/ bad behavior -- but you split an infinitive?!?!! Dear God. I'm ashamed to be a fucking American, I'll tell you that right now. You've totally blasted your own argument right out of the water with this grammatical atrocity. If you can't be trusted not to brutalize the English language, how in the world can I trust you with anything else? I fully expect to see you on the evening news sometime soon, with a coat over your face, being dragged away by the police, charged with multiple goddamn murder/cannibalism, and for all I know necrophilia. I'VE SEEN THIS BEFORE, A THOUSAND TIMES. Bad grammar is where it starts. Next, cigarettes, then marijuana and from that point on the slope is SLIPPERY INDEED, my young friend, SLIPPERY INDEED. In a few years when you wake up and see yourself with fragments of your children's internal organs stewing in a pot, DON'T BLAME ME YOU MISERABLE BASTARD.
I warned you, but you won't listen, will you?
No, no, no, you won't listen. All I can offer is calm, rational sweet reason and common sense, but these things can't compete with the appeal of DANGEROUS NARCOTICS like nicotine and dangling participles and, ultimately, liberalism and human sacrifice.
Look at the KKK for instance; whenever they assemble, they're careful to a) be not particularly numerous (which is easy, given their minimal appeal among the clued), and b) limit their confrontation to shouting. It's part of their current image, where they're clued enough to let the anti-Klan protesters be the ones to first be unruly and discredit themselves.
Umm, not to put too fine a point on it, but don't you think that the Klanners have already discredited themselves right out of the gate, like for example by being, uhh . . . in the Klan?
Where else would you get commentary like this from individuals? You sure as hell wouldn't get it on the news... I knew nothing about this at all until I got to work this morning, I saw no mention of it on TV all day yesterday.
Even if the news here (I'm in the US) did cover it, it would be a 30-60 second story, then off to the weather.
Meanwhile, the biggest of the big manage to push forward to the New World Order, thousand upon thousands of people try to voice their opposition only to be attacked. Sweet. Home of the free, land of the silenced.
"We're not going to make that same mistake again." - Big George Bush
"There ought to be limits to freedom." -Little George Bush
Organized, riot-like protests do not achieve that which you seem to be ascribing to them. Another post has offered the example of the French revolution, and the Russian revolution is a similar example, but anybody who has anything beyond a chronological understanding of history would know that each of these protests (or multiple protests) led to regimes even more oppressive than the ones at which they aimed their protests.
As for working conditions, organized protest is not the way progress is most often achieved. In countries where labour and labour conditions are most progressive, it has been done through legislation (see: 19th century Britain). Such legislation, negotiation and progression is what these WTO conferences are all about. Protesters really need to rethink their strategy - instead of standing in the way of the bus, they need to get in the bus so people can hear what they have to say.
Ironically, the avenue they are presently employing, while gaining the most attention, is the way they are least likely to have their voices heard by anyone of any importance.
In looking over some of the news photos on the web, I've noticed that the police were not using firearms on the scene, but paintball guns firing rubber balls instead (Tippmann Pro-Carbines, to be exact. You can get 'em at many sporting goods stores throughout the US).
I'm guessing that they're far safer than the firearms and rubber bullets they replaced, though I'm sure there's many a protestor out there covered in welts that might think otherwise... ;)
-- JackCat
Watch BBC. They are really bringing info.
And Interviews. Classy interviews! There was one explaining why the UK cannot in principle ban asbestos (known to put public health at risk) because it goes against the rules of the WTO. If that where not enough, it is not possible for a country to impose restrictos to ban firms that use child labor because you'll have trouble with the WTO.
Bravo, BBC!
Although this kind of things is not new. The so-called third world has had to deal with this sort of situation for years.
THe only thing I can say about the protests is that I'd LOVE to be in Seattle! Man I would RUSH to the street. I am thankfull to all those people protesting. It is important to stop the corporations of getting too powerfull.
rmstar
There's a book entitled "When corporations rule the world", written by a guy called David C Corten. Read it and you will understand why the WTO is evil.
Money talks, bullsh!t walks. You have several hundred billion dollars and you want a factory with no questions asked in a third world country? You don't even NEED the WTO, just to grease the palm of the generalissimo. The way to solve things you don't like is through the MARKET SYSTEM. You don't buy, they don't relocate the factory. Simple. If you turn down that $5 Thai thermos in favor of a $10 American one, the company will take a bath in their attempts to move factories, and won't do so. Carrying protest signs and breaking stuff, then going out and buying the 3rd world product doesn't interfere with them one bit. DON'T BUY THAI products. Thailand is a pedophile paradise that exploits its children!
I can't even imagine a society that didn't operate on some having more political power than the majority. I think those people will always have the nicest houses and cars, whatever they call the economic system.
Since I believe this, I think the redistribution of political power is a real and worthwhile goal, as it will improve the economic conditions of those who get it, too. I think that the desire to redistribute economic power directly, which inevitably looks to giving a small group of people incredible political power, will never succeed in granting the majority either economic or political power.
I'm not sure of my position on the WTO, I tend to think of it as a distraction from the real problems in the US and worldwide.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
> Free trade can only exist where all parties are > on an equal footing.
This is so absurd it isn't even false. Go read some economics. The beauty of comparative advantage is that under an extremely wide range of conditions, very unequal trading partners both benefit from free trade. Comparative advantage is the one truly profound and universal finding of economics. I suggest you go read the work. But alas you will have to learn math and have to read through a lot of tough logical models as well as complicated statistical models. It is easier to rely on naive intuition. Naive intuition does not take us very far in physics. What makes one think it takes us very far in economics? People far smarter than us have thought very hard about these issues. For starters, I suggest you go pick up any decent intro-Macro text book. Such a book will not give the right argument (it is too complicated for beginners), but it will give one a sense of what is going on.
As far as I have heard, there WAS a lot of peaceful, organized demonstration. I don't think many people where planning violence. (whether they could have expected it is something different).
As I'm posting anyway, I'd like to say that I'm not happy about the violence, but I'm glad someone was there to protest.
*shrug*
How many people vote against it? You're often given opportunity to do so, with the fringe candidates. The CPUSA once had tens of thousands of declared members, who mostly vanished upon a) hearing about the Stalinist excesses of their "ideal" Rodina, and b) being persecuted after a number of spy scandals involving FDR's administration as well as the Manhattan Project.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Funny--it sounds to me like you'd make a great anarchist.
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
Kindly put a sock in it.
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
I started "We're here, we're wet, forgive the debt." I also started "The leader's theft is not the people's debt" as an attempt at a more intelligent chant, but that one didn't get off the ground. Sorry, I've nothing to reply really, I just got a kick out of seeing my chant on slashdot. obOnTopic: I heard someone say that they counted 8,000 protestors (by 10s) going down from the church. Since we seemed to be met just before the stadium by a labor contingent that seemed about equally strong, I'd estimate the numbers were more like 12-15,000 by the time we got to the stadium. That's a pretty huge protest in normal times, and yes, I didn't see any media coverage of it.
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Hi people!! Grits are an agricultural product of a healthy anti-technological society. And I've just poured some down my pants!!
As for the WTO ruling on this
--
Sorry, I'm not ready to get gassed and arrested to stand up for my right to download pr0n.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
So, you would have required the entire downtown area to be a war zone before accepting that these punks were beyond the pale? Or perhaps it takes all of Washington, with all the aging grunge kids in Aberdeen joining in?
"Imagine a US president being responsive to his/her citizens rather than foreign/domestic business interests! For shame!"
How was that? Pretty good eh?
Well, you know, for me pepper, I put it on my plate.
Babel, the multilingual, multicultural online journal and community of arts and ideas (http://www.towerofbabel.com) is seeking Anti-WTO protest eyewitnesses. If you have been a part of any of the demonstrations against the World Trade Organization in Seattle, Babel would love to feature your up close and personal accounts with the possibility of having your content featured in our pages in whichever language you can translate it into as long as it is also in English. For more information email Malcolm Lawrence, Editor-in-Chief at malcolm@towerofbabel.com
My name is Carlos Montoya. You share files of my music. Prepare to die.
well duh, given our relative proximity to Eugene, it's not unreasonable to presume to Zerzan's band of merry thugs are causing the heartache.
The use of agent provacateurs fails the Occam's razor test. What's dramatically more likely that Eugene anarchists drove up to "party" for a week or that "the Smoking man" wished to discredit the protesters on behalf of the Rothchilds?
Sheesh.
So, on the ballot, the liberal views are generally the ones passed ...
Fellow Portlander(?), you are woefully misinformed as to what passes for a "liberal" view, and how often said view becomes law of the land in Oregon.
If it were that way, you can rest assured we would have light rail, corporate taxes at an equal level with personal ones, legal marijuana (not just for medical patients, like it is now), clean rivers (instead of about-to-be-Superfunded ones like the one that runs through the middle of our fair city - if I wanted to live in Cleveland, I would have moved there, but I digress), non-clearcut forests, and enough money to run our freaking schools.
Instead, we have a Republican legislature, a run at the ballot measures every other year by this hate-driven religious freak called Lon Mabon, major industry in our community that pollutes the shit out of us and doesn't have to pay one red cent, lest they pack up and refab in Mexico like everyone else, murders and beatings of queers and immigrants by skinheads EVEN IN PORTLAND, and a University city (Eugene) surrounded by a right-wing logging community and several backwoods villages in the other directions.
I'm surprised that Eugene can even sustain a long-running group of young anarchists, but they do, and when said anarchists are not being misguided f**king idiots and are instead working for constructive change, they can sometimes come up with decent civic ideas.
Of course, having only lived here regularly since age 6 months, I may not have the enlightened perspective of say, some carpetbagging corporate nimrod who trundled up the I from Cali when the jobs had dried up and they'd finished ruining that state with the same wacky bullshit they're now trying to perpetrate here. Not that I'm saying you fit that description, that's just what in large numbers has crawled up the pike and infiltrated our government and business communities, and they obviously have a different take than me.
Naw, Portland, Eugene and Ashland notwithstanding, as a state we're much closer to Idaho (especially, as you noted before, in the more backwoodsy parts) than San Francisco.
_____
_____
The antidote to bad speech is not censorship, but more speech.
By the way, if you ever decide to lob a tear gas cannister back at the cops, think twice. They are extremely hot when they land, so unless you handle them the right way you will just burn yourself.
A university professor used to tell us stories about his times at Berkley during the student riots in the early '70's. The National Guard was called onto the campus and students weren't allowed to gather in groups more than two or three.
He'd tell us about how the students wore oven mitts to protests. That way when the police or national guard threw tear gas, the students could pick them up and lob them right back. Turned into a bit of a tennis match at times.
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
Adbusters is absolutely brilliant. I just love the idea of using the media to undermine the media. And even better, they're actually good at it: they are wonderful propagandists. Adbusters is actually the only paper magazine I have a subscription to.
I can definitely say that it was a minority of the protestors, and mostly out-of-towners, engaging in property destruction during the protest. Looting where I was (Niketown/Westlake area) didn't happen until after the protest had been cleared by the cops, and it seemed to be carried out mainly by local apolitical high-school students. (The situation was perhaps different at the Starbucks opposite the Westin that got much play on the news; there, protestors were hemmed in.)
On the cops side, I have to applaud most of the individual cops. Most of them, especially the Seattle Police Department, showed remarkable restraint. That being said, I still think it shows a fascist system when cops use tear gas, pepper spray, and rubber bullets from the very start on a peaceful demonstration. (Destructive punks slept in and didn't start breaking windows until their scheduled start at 11:11; tear gas had already been in use for hours at that point.) There were also a few definite bad apples among the police - mostly apparently from nearby PD's - who covered up badges, beat protestors, squirted pepper spray up inside gas masks and then held the masks on, and shot peacefully retreating protestors in the back with rubber bullets. (All of this is first hand or second hand from sources who I know and trust).
For a blow-by-blow account of my day, go to my journal.
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
No, it's not and it's dishonest of you to suggest it is.
A rational person understands there's a *huge* difference between the rubber bullets used by the Israelis or British and the paintgun bullets used by the Seattle police department.
Delegates also attacked... I was part of one of the blockades that remained peaceful, & saw more then one delegate try to physically force his way past the line. One guy who I have to assume was not overly bright (I can't absolutely confirm he was a delegate, but he appeared to be & was carrying wto credentials), after being turned away walked about twenty feet in front of our line & turned & charged head first into the line (three people deep with linked arms). When that didn't work he turned around, walked away, then turned & tried again...
Another delegate apparently pepper sprayed one of the blockades in a failed attempt to break through.
My favorite was the guy who got beligerent when we wouldn't let him pass. He said he was only trying to go see the new bond film at the theater around the corner. Once we pointed out to him that even if we let him pass, the squad of police in full riot gear immediately behind us wouldn't let him go any further, he decided that protesting would be more fun anyway, & he joined up.
It is true that only a very small percentage of the protesters were violent. A group of 20 to 30 anarchists in town from Eugene, OR was responsible for most of the vandalism, & add in a few troublemakers who are always join in when ever there's an opportunity to do so. Unfortunately, those few troublemakers gave the police the excuse they were looking for to escalate the situation. Had the police actually made even a token efffort to arrest those responsible, rather then simply attacking everyone, the entire situation could have been diffused without a problem.
Today, the city has instituted a "no protest zone" covering much of the downtown area & has pledged that anyone priotesting within that zone-- peaceful or otherwise-- will be summarily arrested, a policy that to me appears to be a clear violation of the first ammendment. Also, one of the main -peaceful- protest groups had all of their banners & communications equipment confiscated. The police claimed that the banners could be used as weapons (a shaky argument at best), but I can see absolutely no reason to sieze the radios that is not a clear first ammendment violation (the radios are used as safety equipment in addition to general organizational purposes).
The blue pill lets you go back to your little world and forget you were close to the truth.
If something dosn't kill me it only makes me stronger to paraphrase Nietzche(sp).
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
Ya, whatever MAO.
If they really cared about trade, freedom, or just plain doing good things, they wouldn't be protesting against it.
"I cannot help but smile at the naivete that you show in lamenting that these protests turned "violent". This kind of thing happened in the '60s all the time,"
Yes in the '60s and in the '70s and in the '80s and in the '90s.
The last public protest in I was involved (a "peace" protest, ironically enough) also experienced attempts to inject violence. (A particular counter-protestor with a "USMC" t-shirt covering his beer belly comes to mind. heh) BTW, this was in 1999.
"with the cops instigating the violence at least as often as the protestors."
The fact that many of my fellow protestors have had specific training in de-escalation of violence is extremely significant in my eyes. While I must agree that the police are frequently the instigators of violence (perhaps because of their training, perhaps not) they are by no means always the "bad guys" in this regard. Yes there were men in suits and dark sunglasses photographing us that day (with no connection to the news media, also present.) Yes there were police present that day, and yes the tone changed as the police numbers increased significantly. But with proper training on the part of the protestors, such a presence does not need to end badly. AFAIR, the only arrest made that day was of a counter-protestor who had assaulted a "peacenik" protestor (and also apparently damaged some of her property.) Regardless of the individual or collective desires of the police, with the media cameras rolling and sufficient people taking notes, they will usually restrict themselves to legal actions.
Mind you, not all protestors are sufficiently aware of the underlying principles of course. (I had to remind one that the counter-protestors had every right to speak their minds and had to tell him that if he had attempted to disrupt the news media's attempt to interview one of them, I would feel obligated to switch to protesting his actions, rather than the original issue. Voltaire, anyone? :-) )
The point here is not that I'm such an enlightened person, (heh) but rather that, with proper training, problems can be averted.
"Perhaps this is our generation's "baptism of fire". Most of us have never seen a large-scale demonstration, let alone one that turned into a riot. A lot of people here are either shocked by the violence--like you--or disbelieving and blindly trusting in the police. In my opinion, both of these reactions are naive."
I'm not sure what "our generation" you refer to here, but perhaps you've just not exposed yourself to the right persons. I have many friends of all ages who are well-aware of the issues involved, through first-hand experience. But I do agree that speaking out against atrocities via public protest is much less prevalent than it was a few decades ago. Perhaps it is time for that to finally change?
The (frequently extensive) training for Non-Violent Civil Disobedience is extremely useful, not just within the context of CD, but also in settings such as the protest I mentioned above (which obviously was not intended to be an action involving CD.) I strongly encourage anyone to consider such training if they anticipate being involved in scenarios which have the potential for violence.
"As I say, perhaps this is our generation's baptism of fire. Perhaps, too, it will be a turning point in what has so far been general Dilbert-esque grumbling or just plain lying down over the abuses of corporate America. I hope so."
While I agree that "waking up" is in order ...
"Let us remember among the inevitably positive effects of greater protest that riots, too, are inevitable."...I must disagree here. Training can (at the very least) minimize the likelihood. "Inevitable" is inaccurate, imo.
"Insofar as each of us is committed to peaceable conduct,"
Commitment to nonviolence is indeed important. Advance training is a good means of acting on that commitment.
BTW, was that tear gas comment the voice of experience speaking? ;-)
Perhaps the US residents were raised in an environment where violence was viewed as more acceptable? :(
"I'm actually in favor of MORE public protest - if the polititians piss you off - don't wait for the next election - peacefully take to the street"
Agreed! There is far too much apathy and not enough action in recent years.
Your comment about obesity might hurt some feeling, even though it is true.
Well well well, I'll certainly think about that "herdmember" quote as I'm watching you guys chanting in unison, led by some scrungy failed 60s radical.
Hint: You've made several incorrect assumptions about me, my viewpoints, my love life, etc. I'm quite expressive, not repressed at all...I'd just rather put a boot up some of these whiners than a brick through a windshield.
There are a ton of things I dislike about the WTO, but I feel not the slightest kinship with some piece of human debris whining about how he can't get a job because "the man's got him down" when it's the best job market ever, which seemed to be most of what I saw out there. Sorry, the ideal of the WTO is correct...real unrestricted free trade. The problem is in implementation, with junk like WIPO and bad IP laws screwing things up.
Also, I find it pretty funny that you attempt to compare me, the atheist/libertarian/all around angry sort to Quayle's radical religious right.
One more hint...look up what it takes to get a 13.8% 500 question purity test score, and perhaps you'll have some insight as to who was "screwing a whole lot". Ad hominem is weak when applied to someone you don't know anything about. (Admittedly, my ad hominem about the protesters isn't much better, but at least I'm basing it on experience)
Actually, had the protest remained peaceful, it still would have recieved worldwide coverage, but the coveraged would have focused on the message. Since it turned violent, the media will cover it as a riot & they won't actually have to talk about the protestoor's issues. Any plants may well be planted by the WTO itself as the riots sure got them what they wanted-- martial law in downtown seattle, and a discredited opposition.
I would love to say that protesterss can accomplish
their goals easily, but unfortunatly I will have
to agree that many times, to get our point across, we
simply must become violent. People just don't feel
threatened when they see a group sitting around holding signs
and yelling slogans. Sure, there can be ways to make
non-violent protest work, but it's (unfortunatly)
much easier to pressure somebody when waving a gun
in their face. Too much of this stems from the fact
that some protesters and police just feel so passionately about the issue. And nomatter what your temper be like, overly passionate opinions can always lead to violence. -- I M H O --
You're grossly uninformed about the WTO protests. There are peasant farming groups from India, the WTO Caravan from Canada, and representatives from hundreds of NGOs around the world. The organisation for the demonstrations has been underway for years - one of the first organizational meetings was in Geneva in late 1997 (my sister was there).
40 000 people felt strongly enough about the attacks on their sovereignty to travel to Seattle (at their expense, and rarely with wages on the scale of techies) and make their concerns known in the only way possible, since the WTO has no mechanism for external concerns. Do you really think that this can be collapsed to 'a hodge-podge mix of students and "labour union" supporters - union stiffs'? I disagree.
I think the cause for concern is more accurately people who are too apathic or disinterested to learn even the basic issues surrounding these events, but still feel qualified to pass judgement on those who are informed and feel passionate enough to protest for the protection of their rights.
And yours too.
Just like anyone who uses encryption has something to hide, right?
If I was going to a protest, I'd be a peaceful type, but that wouldn't stop me from wearing a gas mask if I thought that I'd be gassed.
It would indeed be foolish to state that the US does not exert a great deal of influence on what the WTO says and does.
After all, the US negotiating team is several orders of magnitude larger than those of other countries.
But the US does not _control_ the WTO. There have been a great many decisions - especially arbitration decisions - that go against the US.
Without the WTO, those decisions would not have happened at all.
The WTO may not be perfect, but it's a damn sight better than not having the WTO.
Maybe the WTO is what Lucas was alluding to as "The Trade Federation" in TPM. . .
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
For some "alternative" accounts of the happenings in Seattle, check out http://www.indymedia.org Apologies if someone has already posted this... I think somebody already mentioned http://www.zmag.org but I'll reiterate that it is a great source of left political commentary.. It's a shame to see the mainstream press paint the protest as violent because of the actions of a very small group of people. Funny too that the police's teargassing, clubbing, and usage of rubber bullets isn't labelled as violent.
Propaghandi, a punk band from Winnipeg
Wah!
London? You idiot! There's protesting going on in London too! Get out there (and lose your visa, of course!)
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
So should we make voting compulsory with a fine for not participating?
As far as voting for capitalism that's what your elected representatives do. That's why we have republics not direct democracies. Its sad to see another victim of the brainwashing public schools
DB
Hmm, ethanol's an alcohol, not oil. And cord needs to grow somewhere. Intensive monocropping, like we do with our corn and wheat fields, ends up draining the soil of all nutrients, and then we have to plug all sorts of inputs like fertilizers and pesticides and herbices into the land - it basically becomes a hydroponics operation. I farm in the summer, and I've seen both the sections of land that are ruined from overuse of chemicals, and the warnings on the herbicide boxes that report that the Horizon that goes on about 60% of the grain fields around here will kill birds and fish.
What we've been doing, and continue to do, can very easily be called destroying the environment. The desertification of sub-Sarahan Africa, deforestation of South America, cotton and tobacco farming in the USA, oil messes in Nigeria, and a million other things certainly aren't signs of "improvement". The environment is a buffer system, and we seem to be approaching the edge of the buffer rather quickly.
FUN???? WTF is with you loons out thre in Seattle? WHY do you protest, for ENTERTAINMENT value????
Why are US jobs more important than jobs in other countries?
I think the issue is that the same company (Boeing, in this case) gets the workers who will take the smallest wage, to maximise their profit - thereby shafting both the old employee in Seattle, who's out a job, and the new one, who's making an unfair wage.
You europeans have no clue just how BIG the US really is.
--Dan
Heh, another "conspiracy theory":
_ leadall_27.html
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991130/ts/wto
``I've never seen any meeting of this sort so badly organized and mishandled,'' said one senior developing country ambassador who heads his delegation at the WTO in Geneva.
``I'm convinced the Americans have let this happen to reduce the time available for negotiation and make it easier for them to put pressure on us to give in on issues vital to us,'' he added.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
You know how they'd get jobs? Doing something that directly benefitted their communities instead of cutting the manufacturing costs of the factory owners. Or if they did work in factories, they'd be local factories in which the products they made benefitted their community. Honestly, how much do you think it costs to make a pair of Nike shoes that cost $200 in the store? $20? $30? Anyone? You have to realize that This is how our standard of living is so high! No amount of work we do here can provide the living standard we enjoy. Our lovely gasoline-powered lifestyle is a direct byproduct of exploiting the poor.
Wah!
35+ is "older people"? What are you, some child?
Either this was satire, or you are TRULY SICK ...which one?
Check here for some collections of press (mis)information. Disclaimer: These aren't the original articles, I couldn't track them down on the net, but the TV version used the same content as they are describing.
How is calling someone a hippie or a union member an attempt to discredit? Both are honorable labels.
We saw it on the news last night (and I live in Seattle) ... the ones breaking windows and destroying stuff were there because "it was a riot, dude, so I wanted to go there and be cool too...and like... what's the WTO?" I don't think I have ever supported the police before but this time they were justified. Its just too bad that the peaceful demonstrators got caught in the middle, but they were what made it all possible. Just my ramblings...
"Hippies haven't existed for more than 20 years."
I don't exist? My friends don't exist?
Perhaps it's time for you to take a look around you at reality, or at least rejoin this planet.
Training and preparation do make a huge difference, yes.
Heh. The AC's are all over this one. Unfortunately, there isn't much but rhetoric flowing around this thread.
Free trade is not the best way to economic growth, it is simply a way.
It would be a serious mistake to discount the points that the protesters bring up. I think most of them are fairly valid: Removing trade restrictions operates without reguard to non-economic agendas (such as social justice).
What we would like to see is that Nations would set their restrictions at levels that only protected those things which they see as non-economicly advantageous, and that otherwise they would keep their borders open. Unfortunately, strategic and dynamic pressure will push trade boundries up if left alone. GATT solves that problem with the "Most Favored Nation" concept, but it does so at the expense of the member nations soveriegnty.
Also, while freeing trade is in aggregate good, it doesn't deal with distrobutional issues, nor does it deal (properly) with non-competitive markets. (It can be shown that most trade occurs within oligopolistic or monopolistic frameworks).
Bottom line: Its a very complex issue and the only reason that the big boys (Krugman, Baghwati, etc.) take polarizing positions is that they can define clearer arguments that way. When it comes to individual policy implementation, sweeping statements on either side of the (free trade v. fair trade) debate hedge heavily.
Pax -- Ob
Social Democracy is a middle path that tries to ensure both capitalistic freedom and social security for individuals. Those being, freedom to the limit of hurting other participants/outsiders - so the state/people (in democracy, largely associated) wields power over any participant, including corporations, security as not being cast out of society to the level of starvage or homelessness. You are encouraged to work/form your own life, but not left alone in despair in case it some time just won't work out.
Mentioned countries really do function with such a system and are wealthy. Not to talk about the level of education among the citizen, boosting in turn such successes as Linus' work and Nokia.
Thanks for pointing out the major point anyway.
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
Tell that to the four kids in Ohio, at Kent State. Oh yeah, nm, they're dead.
Says a lot about you.
Yes, this is true. many Palestinians died from these so-called "Rubber-Bullets", they are actually what is reffered to as "Full-Rubber-Jacket", which is a regular bullet covered with rubber.
They cause extreme pain upon imapct and can lead to death if hit the head or a major blood vessil.
The act of using "Non-Leathel" weapons on civilians is considered more "Humane" and is very popular since it usually dose not cuase death, but "mere" injuries - This is ofcourse obsord, and worst of all - It gives the Police the idea that they are not really hurting the un-armed, un-protected protesters in front of them, just "Sparying them with spray and shooting rubber bullets at them", as if this is some kind of game where you just get messy colors all over your shirt, and not blood...
To the fool, he who speaks wisdom will sound foolish. ---Euripides
Gassing non-violent protesters is dead wrong.
The actions of the police are just fueling the hatred of government and corporations to an even greater extent.
It's good to hate the government because it hates you.
As an individual who eats only whole foods I sympathize with the activists. I reject corporate agriculture, concepts like the "terminator" seed scare me, and I try to maintain good health through diet. These people are on target with some of my beliefs, and if this event was local, I would be there.
I do not condone the violence however.
Will we see the same thing at the steps of the courthouse when MS get off with a slap on the wrist?
I wonder if Jose Bove uses Linux?
mass production+mass consumption=mass destruction!
Viva la revolution!
pronoblem
The dynamic argument against this is that as companies do this, economic pressures will raise the price of labor. As they raise productivity, their standard of living will increase, etc. etc. Can you provide a reasonable argument against that?
There are numerous data that shows that capital immobility severely limits corperate incentives to relocate based on fluctuating incentives such as wage rates. Do you have thoughts on this?
I'm not saying you're totally off base, but without addressing said criticisms, I don't see these anti-WTO arguments as having as much legs as such things as sovereignty, environmental zero-sum game and pollution tolerance, transparency, and counter-incentive arguments.
Sorry...while I don't like the WTO, (and I despise WIPO), I think that the labor arguments against it are actually the weakest.
Pax -- Ob
Apparently it's common practice to shoot them at the ground in front of the target(s) with the intent that they bounce (and I guess lose some of their momentum) into their legs - however as you might guess bouncing something that's not perfectly round means they sometimes fly blindly in somewhat random directions (including into people's faces).
anyone know what the muzzle velocity of a 'rubber bullet' is?
You've fallen for a big load of slanted bullshit.
Read this news story.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/991130/bdz.html
It delivers a less biased view, and shows that MOST of the demonstrators WERE peaceful. It's only a small minority of agitators that are doing the window breaking. As with any group, it's easy to fall into the trap of judging the whole by a few bad eggs. But this is really a very diverse group.
The WTO has managed to piss off a broad spectrum of people. Gee, I wonder how you do that, in a democratic nation?
Telling these people that they have no right to march, and that they ought to grease a politician is lunacy. We don't all have nice fat stock options, or mommy and daddy's trust fund to siphon off of. Some people need to work for a living. And they'd just like the opportunity to do so without being fucked-over by some dictatorial group that caters to big business' whims.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The Chinese factory working making $300 per year is living in China...
You have to take that $300 in the context of someone in China. They have a lower cost of living than people in North America. It may sound like an impossible amount to live on, and true, it's not much, but it certainly goes farther in China than it would in N.America.
---
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
...suck!!
Don't get me wrong - I'm not against civil disobediance (I was after all on my way back from of sitting on the Bay Bridge) - but there's smart and dumb ways to do that
>The only first hand account I see is that she says "I didn't get anything worse than tear gas".
-----
I didn't get anything worse than tear gas, but police have been
beating with riot sticks peaceful protestors who sat or lay on the ground. They have taken protestors who were wearing face masks, covered the inside of the mask with pepper spray and forced it back onto the person's face. They dragged an elderly woman across the ground by her hair and an arm. They've shot rubber bullets at ranges of a few feet, and one officer pulled a real gun on protestors before other officers restrained him.
-----
All of that sounds like first-hand observations to me. I wish I could understand what causes people to stick their heads in the sand, beleive the police-edited version of the story, and refuse to beleive the first hand testimony of people who were actually there. The refusal to beleive that the system could actually be doing something wrong is so prevelant, that the government (especially the United States government) can oppress it's citizens, and people just look the other way, even to gigantic rights violations. It's reminiscent of Nazi germany, IMO. "Just ignore the Gestapo, we're good citizens, they won't bother us".
-- sudo.ca
I was wondering if anyone else was thinking the same thing. I had been amazed so far to see NO ONE else mention it!
"The whole world's watching!"
Why in God's name should a worker who has been laid off give a damn about how "U.S. as a whole" has gained so much wealth? All that increase in wealth, ALL OF IT, has gone to the top ten percent of incomes. And that worker is now out of a job. Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
...build a temple or a Cathedral.
This isn't like Ruby Ridge or something, where innocent people were attacked by stormtroopers.
This is a bunch of goddamn socialists and agitators out on the streets causing trouble. They had it coming.
Randy Weaver had earned the right to ignore the police. These hippies haven't. They can damn well take orders and they'd damn well better learn to like it. This is a FREE COUNTRY. We are free not to tolerate human garbage like that, and we WON'T tolerate it. I know you'd love to live in a police state where we're forced to put up with all kinds of sick freaks running around loose, a dictatorship where we'd be forbidden to deal with them properly like free men have a right to do. Well, tough shit. It IS a free country and crap like you had best get it through your head that YOU ARE NOT PROTECTED BY A NAZI POLICE STATE THAT FORCES US TO TOLERATE YOUR BEHAVIOR. You are protected by NOTHING. This is what freedom means: The sacred right of free men to protect their own culture from this kind of sickness.
It sounds like a retelling of the stories that fly around the battle scene to me. Never does she say "I saw...", and there little specific details.
I don't know what happened there, but I *know* that in any such situation the place will be boiling with rumors about what awful things the enemy side did. Just like urban legends, stories will not get retold and spread based on how thruthful they are (since that is unknown to everyone except the few real witnesses) but according to how well they play into peoples fears and expectations. No doubt this happens on the police side as well (though they are more trained for it).
You sound like somebody with a healthy amount of sceptical thinking. Thats great. We despearately need more such people. But don't throw out that attitude when evaluating what the enemys enemy tells you. The world is just not that simple!
And if you think this is like Nazi Germany, even if all the worst accusations are true, you've lived a very sheltered life.
I thought you were just one of those many people who rejects socialism out of hand because they know communism fell in Europe and never learned about the welfare state of, e.g., Germany. I apologize for the error. Clearly you are much better educated and omre thoughtful than that!
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
I clearly misunderstood your point. Again, I apologize.
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
anyone wearing a gas mask now is in danger of a $500 fine and confiscation of the mask. mayor schell announced today that under the civil emergency gas masks on civilians are illegal.
that creeps me out.
They both suck. Solar, wind, and geologic thermal heat is the way to go, IMO.
How about labeling the opposite? It seems like a much better plan. Instead of waiting around for the corporations to label themselves as 'produced with 100% child labor', you could only buy products labeled as 'child labor free'. Kinda like 'dolphin-safe tuna'. No one is forcing you to buy products that you disagree with.
*sighs*
Sit down and think about this for a minute, and you'll realize the exact reason why this sort of thing should be on Slashdot.
Would you rather be force-fed the obvious sensationalist crap that the media presents, or come to a forum like this where we can get intelligent (sometimes, anyway) discussion, and more importantly, first-hand accounts?
If you don't like it, go into your user prefs and filter out the "news" category.
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
Depending on the projectile and the means of firing it, 300 to 450 fps seems to be the norm.
The object is to deliver somewhere in the range of 30-90 ft/lbs of force to the target; less than 30 is ineffective, more than 90 tends to cause serious (read "lethal") damage. Even at the lower energy levels, "non-lethal" and "less than lethal" rounds can still maim or kill. It is recommended police procedure to call for medical help immediately after incapacitating someone with "non-lethal" force, just in case of serious internal injuries, etc.
-- JackCat
Subject says it all.
:)
/.'s live coverage of the events which are going on
in Seattle are another proof that this kind of news
coverage is beating the *sses of CNNNBCCBSBBCABC...
Where else did I find so many different quality
sources reporting 'live' from Seattle?
Where else could I read so many statements,
most of them written intelligently? (chose 2+
threshold
Go Slashdot! Go Slashdotters!.
And take care that they don't buy you out.
Good points.
You're right about the WTO being a voluntary ceding of sovereignty. People are upset, though, because we signed that treaty (GATT) without most people knowing what we were giving up; if they had known, they probably would have objected.
Personally I'm not against world government, as long as it is a democracy and has limited powers (say, on a federal model.) The WTO, though, is the worst of all possible systems - a corrupt autocratic oligarchy which isn't answerable to anyone.
Check out the clubofrome.com and their book, _The Limits of Growth_. Very interesting stuff that wa revolutionary when it was published, and prolly now too.
The truth is out there - we'll let it back in after it sobers up a bit. -The Cube
There IS editorial focus. Customized by user. Personalize you /. settings
Not such a bad thing...most political sentiments are previewed in music, and when the speakers are intelligent, educated (RATM members all have degrees, most Ivy, whatever its good for), how can it be foolish to take political advice from a band? In this case, IMHO, the band in question is smarter than most odf our elected representatives, and they certainly turn their energies to more conrtuctive results (ever check how much of their gross theydoante to charities?)
bottom line for Ignorant people: educate tyourself before letting your opinions become too firm.
The truth is out there - we'll let it back in after it sobers up a bit. -The Cube
The truth is out there - we'll let it back in after it sobers up a bit. -The Cube
college dining halls. Starbucks.
The truth is out there - we'll let it back in after it sobers up a bit. -The Cube
The WTO doesn't seem to stop workers from organizing or even coutries from passing laws preventing sweatshops and the like. Certainly sweatshops are a bad idea but if the WTO has provisions to somehow penalize countries with sweatshops this will be used by rich countries to justify tariffs against these countries.
As is clear from looking at the history of the US and England sweatshops occur in developing countries whether or not they are competing against developed nations. These sweatshops then tend to disappear as the level of affluence rises to the point that the workers are no longer extremly dependent on the companies (in a poor enough country a workers strike will bring minimal results). Thus by placing tarriffs on a devloping country we could very well be hurting there industrialization and hence prolonging the period of poor workers rights.
In principle an *appropriate* policy could convince the developing nations to have better labour standards in return for no tarriffs, however, such a policy is too likely to be abused by industrial nations which have a large voter block that is scared of competition from these countries. In addition it might make the WTO unpallatable to these developing countries thus obstructing its ennactment and increasing labour abuses.
The enviornmental claims may have some merit but I was saying that any real issue their is getting buried under slogans and unions protesting the decline of their power.
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
And exactly how many of those countries are anything close being democratic? Maybe half of europe, japan, and US. That means 3/4th or 3/5ths of the reps are up for sale. Just go to any thirdworld country, they make American politicians look like pillars of decency. I've been to Columbia, equador and India, you can't get anything done in those countries without bribes or violence. A statistic I read about indonesia claims that Nike pays out more in bribes to indonesian governemnt and military officials then what they pay for the raw materials their shoes are made of.
Besides, democracy means direct election of representatives, anything else is sure to lead to massive corruption.
If you live in a member nation and think that your govt is making poor choices wrt to WTO, talk to your govt.
Yeah, I'll just give Clinton a call, and that'll staighten things out. sure. I don't think you have any grasp of how power politics actuall works on our grubby little planet.
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!
Its karma, Kramer.
Besides, they are so decidedly mainstream that coverage can be obtained from any news source. In the past I have sided with Roblimo when he has introduced some non-geek topics, but this is too much. Can we have some editorial focus please?
What deepened the great depression? Are you an economist or an economics genius? NO! You have to realize that tariffs and trade barriers increase world suffering. Japan would have NEVER attacked US in WWII if the US didn't bring about the Holly Smoot tariff which effectively cut Japan off. So in fact what you are protesting for is the collective suffering of everyone and a greater disparity between land renters and land owners rather than just rich or poor.
Hey! There's TVs, stereos, and bags of Doritos being held captive in stores all over this sad country! Let them be free, I say, let them be free!! It's about time someone put a stop to this cruelty.
*grin* Never again will I say "it couldn't happen HERE... not in MY town..."
what a wonderful y2k preparedness test.
i wonder if all those riot police are y2k compliant.
--
Honestly the WTO is an organization that has to be rethought as a whole. In this country (america) it is very hard to get a bit of information that does not have some sort of a spin on it. I am not surprized by the lack of information concerning the WTO. By design the wto is not open to the public. Although heads of corperations are present at the meeting average citizens are not allowed in.
I find this very disturbing. What I also find disturbing is that BILL GATES III!!!!! WILL BE CHAIRING THIS MEETING!!! If that is an indication of the quality of person that is at this meeting I would be very worried.
These people and the WTO, RTFM! Proletarians of the world, RTFM!
Why the WTO? Because the theory is sound. Mind you, the theory is sound, it just happens to not actually exist as described. International trade theory - as espoused by the WTO - is based on 'comparative advantage'. Real trading practice - as carried out by nations such as China and companies such as Boeing - is based on market-access/offset deals and transfer pricing. The short form is that everyone - repeat - everyone is guilty of some dodgy bullshit here.
There's too much production capacity in the world; and it's getting worse. China was thought to be the Great White Hope of overstocked western firms, but that's going to vanish. Why? Because China will have say 200-300 million US-level affluent customers. But it will still have nigh on a billion dirt-poor dirt-cheap workers too. And that will severely fuck up the system.
The answer is not to back up on trade, to invoke protectionist measures. All that will do is exacerbate current oversupply problems (no exports possible) and cause a world-wide shrinkage in output. The short-form is that to go protectionist now is to replay the events of the Great Depression and the prelude to WWII. Even the stockmarket is acting eerily like it did before the Great Crash.
The answer is to realise that neo-liberal economic theory is bullshit when people are as poor as piss and there's a lot of them. We need to solve our over-capacity problems by radically increasing demand.
To do so in the developed economies would be destructive and inflationry. The answer is to give a shit about the 2.something billion people who live below the absolute poverty line. The UN's Development Program can create enough demand to fairly much solve this problem for about 80bn a year for a decade. 800bn is a lot for one country; but it's not so much for a half dozen or so. It'll cost a helluva lot more if the current system crashes; still more if war errupts.
Think about it.
JC.
-- The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the fictional entity who may or may not have expressed them
First of all, sovereignty sucks. Really, I don't see what's so great about it. I mean; do you really feel like the US government acts in your interests? I don't see why a world government would be any worse. Think about how much the EU governments seem to care about citizen privacy when compared to the US government.
Look, France, Germany, and other European governments are giving up some sovereignty to be a part of the EU. I care about my rights, and as long as there preserved, why should I care whose running the show? (couldn't do a worse job then the idiots we've got now, could they?)
Also, while there were a lot of people, there were over 250,000 at Marten Luther King's March on Washington, and over 400,000 at the 'million man march' much more then 50,000. In any event, how can you possibly say that this single event, witch did turn violent is possibly larger then the entire civil rights movement, with its many, larger, and lessviolent protests?
ohhh, while watching CNN, I just saw an advertisement for you're little 'protest' "lets go to Seattle and put that on the WTO agenda"www.adbusters.org You can tell a real grassroots movement by there slick television advertisements.
As for people jumping down my throat, go ahead, I don't usually to ranting. I wouldn't mind hearing some of the real issues (witch you have not done).
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I wonder if CNN knows they just bought an episode of JAG from CBS.
-==-
really?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The world is cleaner now that it was in the 70s. The earth has the ability to accept and certain amount of waste and it can. We have already reduced pollution quite a bit. Just a little more and we will be back in the equillibrium with the earth which means we can still pollute but the earth can tolerate it.
Wow... I guess we wont be able to make "apathy" the word of the year. There sure seem to be a lot of anti-protestor PR-trolls out, though. I guess M$ has taught the WTO a couple of things.
Most of the protestors are non-violent, intelligent, and well-intentioned. However, a few are not, and they're the ones doing the damage. Apparently the looting, etc., this afternoon was done almost entirely by a small group (30 or so) of anarchists who dressed all in black and didn't even show their faces. The real protestors tried to stop them, knowing the damage they'd do to the protest. The few hundred people who intentionally broke curfew are mostly just doing it to defy authority because it's authority. Again, this is only three or four hundred out of 20,000+.
As a sidenote to one of the reports on the radio, they mentioned that many of the delegates conversed with the protestors outside the convention center (as they couldn't get in). Both sides actually talked about issues and explained why they were there. That's the news that should have come out of today, not the violence and looting and burning and such. But human nature being what it is, a small group had to ruin it for everyone.
BTW, there's a rumor here that this anarchy group has stolen a petroleum truck and plans to wreak havoc with it tomorrow - anyone else hear this? Is it just someone's imagination, or real?
Just ramblings from another annoyed Washington State college student...
Anyone who has taken even an introductory class in Economics knows that
And anyone who has managed to avoid economics classes are free from such propaganda. Which it what it is. It most certainly not based on any repeatable facts nor any form of science. This is like WiReD and it's "Things are getting better" chant. Repeating it very often does not make it truer.
free trade is the best way to economic growth and economic growth benefits everyone.
This is a lie. The economy in Quebec has been going steadily down-hill since the USA-Canada Free Trade deal was forced on us. Apart from a few large, already very rich corporations, no one really benefited from the agreement.
Now we have NAFTA. Go and ask the folks in northern Mexico, which has been converted into an ecological desaster area, where the economic growth is. And ask the folks in the Chiapas about economic growth.
Anything for free!
Soon it will be!
Anything for free!
Matter compiler for me!
I may not know about whether or not lives will be saved due to overzealous use of pepper spray, but I am aware that there have been a nontrivial amount of deaths due to use of pepper spray by riot control.
In a way this is true, however the issue of self governing vs. supranationalism is one that will have great importance in the next few years. The United Nations is currently not allowed to interfer in internal affairs, however many people believe the only way that the UN will ever be able to do anything is if they have this power. I agree that it is wrong to interfer with internal afairs, but this issue is not linited to the WTO, and a doubt that an incident like this would happen over the UN.
I honestly believe that most of the people here are just what i would call 'do gooders'. They want a fight (not usually physical), and they will fight for anything that the see as the 'good' thing, with little regard for what is right. I remeber from when i was in university this was common, and a doubt much has changed. A good example of this was a show i saw on tv about the tibet concerts. One of the people that was attending said 'I'm here to show my support to the tibeten(sp?) people, its really sad that their depressed'.
I hope nobody critized the mayor or the police for what they are doing, it is amazing what can happen when mob mentality takes over.
Anyway, i hope that there are few injuries on either side, and that the meeting can take place, and that people have a chance to aire their grevences in a rational environment, instead of on a street.
There's BLACK HELICOPTORS flying around!
There's a stand-off between about 200 cops in riot gear and 300 protesters about three blocks away. They're firing off tear-gas canisters 10 at a time.
All in all, not really that bad. I got tear-gassed three times today, but made it out alive be breathing through my trusty beanie (knit cap, old guy...). Bill Clinton gets here tonight. I doubt anything too crazy will happen.
TONS of video cameras! There's gonna be alot of documentarys about what's happening here. The news anchor behind the desk made the statment, "I've been told by the cheif of police that NO rubber bullets were used." Then the reporter on the street says, "That's not true." and holds up a couple rubber bullets. Then a bystander holds up about 10 rubber bullets!
More news if anything nuts happens....
-=nft1999=-
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -Gandhi
I recommend that you read up on what is going on. When there is more than say 10,000 people gathering to protest you should really look into the reasons behind it.
http://www.harmonizationalert.org/
Try here.
Or here
http://www.tradewatch.org/
Matt XVI said:
... with none of the responsiblities that come with those rights. This is the problem. The government has created an imbalance by creating an immortal 'individual' with all the rights that that entails, and none of the responsiblities. As someone who believes in the free market, I find this repugnant. The WTO is being used to further the rights of corporations, without adressing the concerns of us mere mortal individuals.
(NB ALL rights are individual rights)
This may be true, but corporations are considered individuals by the law
As far as your comment of lowering trade barriers goes, good for you. If you believe that buying the cheapest goods possible, made by someone making a daily wage less than you spend on coffee, Yippee. Me, I work as hard as I can to make enough money that I can buy (relatively expensive) goods made by people who make as much as I do. If the WTO helps even the playing feild for people making a living wage, YAY!.... That however does not seem to be the goal.
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
Economics is very limited science, non renewable resources are not a big factor in present day economics.
It's funny because their are other nuts in Seattle right now being beating by "sain" police.
You probably don't even know what a Marxist is! Trust me, you wouldn't even HAVE that home computer if you were a Marxist. If you did, you would have waited 5yrs for it and it would be a 8086.
While true, to a point, I beg to differ. I'm of the frame of mind that while world trade might not be slashdot material, per se, the coverage is certanly meritorious.
Consider for a second the protestor's motives. They're seeking to draw attention to a regieme, that until now has largely operated in secret; think back to the GATT talks in Uraguay. Not a soul was there to cover it.
Exposure of governmental actions running afoul is a Good Thing(tm). It's not quite unlike what many who read slashdot are attempting to do by drawing attention towards such topics as:
The point of what I'm trying to say is this: taking to the streets might not be what we would do to get our point across. But, it certainly gives me hope that people coming together, for a common cause (whether you agree with it or not), against a powerful mammoth entrenched infrastructure intent on getting it's way, can make a difference and turn the tide. And, as far as I'm concerned, it's better to do it now, rather than later.
This is the link, I like the comment, and dont think many people will click through.
...
...
There are a lot of protests of the WTO being waged by environmentalists and labor groups right now. Last I heard they were using pepper spray on the protesters in Seattle. Some of the criticism of the WTO is calling it the ultimate capitalists club, and accusing the organization of ignoring other important issues, such as child labor, environmental damage, the right to form unions,
The WTO counters that U.S. law can not be imposed on the rest of the world, and that it's charter is to reduce trade barriers, not improve the environment,
So what we have are environmentalists protesting the group because it doesn't take a more activist role on a wider variety of issues. The environmentalists, in effect, see the power and sway the WTO has and want to hijack it for their own causes. So they really are protesting for the WTO to have even more power (and a different focus). Kind of seems ironic, not to mention that I think this is ridiculous. The reason the WTO has the power it does is that it has a limited and focused charter, and is broadly appealing to countries that want to join.
Now I could agree that the WTO should take labor laws more into account, but something about the whole situation is a little odd. Anyone else have any strong views on this?
Dhyana
What deepened the great depression? Are you an economist or an economics genius? NO!
Are you? We have no way of knowing this, since you chose to go AC. I'm not; although I've taken a couple of courses on economics I don't claim to be a genius.
You have to realize that tariffs and trade barriers increase world suffering.
Agreed, to a point. But the lack thereof can be just as bad, and have exactly the same effects, only in different regions. Sad as the truth may be, you cannot completely eliminate world suffering. The best you can do is minimize it, try not to cause any more of it, and try help those who are suffering from it.
Japan would have NEVER attacked US in WWII if the US didn't bring about the Holly Smoot tariff which effectively cut Japan off.
That's "Hawley-Smoot." And it cut everyone off, so why didn't everyone attack? For that matter, how are you so certain that was the reason Japan attacked at all (remember, they're historically very protectionist also)? Again, these are honest questions.
So in fact what you are protesting for is the collective suffering of everyone and a greater disparity between land renters and land owners rather than just rich or poor.
Wrong again. The fact is, he's got a point. People tend to see the US, because of its affluence, as a nation of rich people. This is hardly the case. While we do have a lot of rich people, and those people are very rich indeed, they're still an extremely small minority of the population. I would say that no more than five thousand, maybe ten thousand Americans are in a position really benefit at all from WTO. That leaves over three hundred million others in a position to suffer, and suffer greatly, as their jobs go where labor is cheaper.
I should point out that when jobs go overseas, suffering for those tho get the jobs rarely ends. It's not like they get paid nearly as much as their US counterparts (for if they did, then what would the point of moving the jobs be?) Most don't even get a twentieth of what a US worker makes, and the working conditions are awful. That's what's known as a "sweatshop" and it's what happens to most jobs when they go overseas. That's not stopping suffering, merely transmuting it to a different form (now, instead of suffering from having no money, they suffer under abominable labor conditions for obscene hours and still don't have much more money than they did before). So now, you don't just have an American who's suffering from unemployment, you also have someone overseas who got the job but is still suffering (which the American would not have been had he or she kept the job). People forget that businesses are ruthless whenever they can get away for it, and why not? Businesses exist for one reason alone: to make money. They'll do this by any means they can get away with; that's the nature of comeptition. Laws can be enacted to make sure business act honorably, but those are useless if they can't reach somewhere that the business can.
This is the problem with the WTO. Its theory is great. The problem is, it's not executed very well. It does nothing to level the playing field across nations (which was its original purpose; it just doesn't do anything which will do that).
A trade organization which ensured fair wages and working conditions in its member nations would be one thing. But WTO doesn't do that. All it does is drop barriers to trade, without a thought as to what lies on both sides of those barriers.
Earth and humanity's existence are not zero sum games, by any means. If people choose to see a world of limited opportunity and oppression that is their choice, but it is easily provable that it is not.
The need for raising standards of living worldwide does not necessitate more oppresive regimes holding people down. People in America, since that seems to be the locale of everyone's beef, are not going to stand by while their economy is eroded by power-freak bureaucrats in Federal and international organizations. If everyone in China also had a color tv set, would that be Ok, or does America somehow "need" to be ripped apart? Why do you assume that any aspect of the world, be it the biosphere, the economy, or any human endeavor, is a zero sum game, in which everything must have some fixed level of usability or extensibility? The material resources just in the top few miles of crust and oceans of the earth are staggering, and easily enough to raise every human being on earth to an American standard of living.
This is using technology available today, if people and companies (maybe even governments, despite their historic wastefulness) wanted to make this happen.
Even without the promises of nanotech and a newly burdgeoning commercial space industry, life and economic existence are not zero sum. This is a mistake that even Malthus rejected later in life, you should consider evaluting your position on it. I would highly recommend "Mining the Sky" by John Lewis, on space development that relates to this , along with "Through Green Colored Glases: Environmentalism Reconsidered" by Beckerman.
J05H
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
Try reading a British text book on the Magna Carta. I don't know what they feed Americans in history lessons but they sure have some weird ideas about the Magna Carta.
This post is far from informative. But anyway, you neglected to mention that nobody makes a country join the WTO, or stay in it if they don't like it.
I wasn't downtown, but, near as I can tell, most of the rioting is due to a bunch of dickheads, few, if any of them have a political agenda. They just joined the crowd and, when the actions of the organized protesters succeeded in shutting down traffic and delaying the WTO meetings, they saw an opportunity to break and burn things.
I am relatively pleased that the local media, who are generally horrbile and frequently sensationalistic, while often referring to the looters as "protesters" are also trying to make the point that the looters don't seem very political and that most of the protesters have been peaceful.
I am also pleased that our police are far from the edge and don't seem likely to beat anyone to death for any reason.
It was incredibly hypocritical for those boneheads attacking Nike Town...half of them had Nikes on!!!
For the most part everyone seemed pretty peaceful. We were all mostly standing around, there was a big circle in the middle of an intersection (on or near 4th ave) with people dancing and drummers making music. Then suddenly up the street the police started firing flashbangs over the crowd down there and firing tear gas down the street towards us and advancing in a line at us forcing all the people in the street to stampede down towards us. From there things detereriated, people began trashing anything corporate. Windows were busted, a lot of people were tagging anti-WTO/anti-corporate stuff all over. Huge clouds of tear gas were drifting all over the place. I saw the police beating people with their batons and firing rubber bullets into incapitated peoples faces. A lot of people got really fucked up. When the tear gas gets you it's very hard to breathe and nearly impossible to see because your eyes burn so bad and won't stop watering. It seemed to me that from what I saw first hand as well as on local TV coverage that the police provoked much of the violence. There were some small groups of people who seemed to be casuing some problems, but until the police began gassing people and advancing on the protesters, almost everyone was peaceful and non-violent. Some of the local media is trying to make out the violent protesters as being "roving street gangs" who are only there to loot and vandalize, but from what I saw and heard, they are very much anti-corporate/anti-wto and their violence IS politically motivated. The amount of people there was truly amazing. The streets were packed with many people, I was suprised with how many older people there were too, a large amount of the crowd was 35+, There was also a good amount of high school aged kids too.
I think you need to lay off the crack a little.
I _have_ taken the intro course you refer to, and I learned a very important lesson.
"In the long run, we are all dead."
- John Maynard Keynes -
The argument you refer to is that the best way to get a country to stop polluting and abusing their workers is to raise their standard of living. (Just like in the U.S.). The best way for them to get there is to follow the same economic path to stardom that the U.S. did.
I question whether the world is a sufficiently large pollution sink for this _theory_ to work for all countries which are not currently first world. I'd like to keep the planet livable at _least_ for my lifetime. I really like going outside.
Frankly, I don't see what the big hurry is to get everything all worked out. It might be absolutely wrong. It might take a long time to hammer out universally acceptible "fair trade" restrictions. Trade only accounts for about 3% of the GDP. Are you willing to risk _everything_ for a 5% gain on 3%?
Think about free trade for a second. What free trade is is a way for the rich to get richer. Those who can afford to set up manufacturing plants in foreign third world countries and ship manufactured goods benefit immensely from Free Trade.
It also alows the poor to get richer. If those 'rich bastards' didn't setup shop in the 3rd world, how would they get jobs?
Do you belive that its more imporntant for Americans to have jobs then people in other contrys? I don't. And just beacuse people don't working arn't in the US, it dosn't mean that there being 'exsploited'
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
sounds kind of boring, if you're going to wreak havok anyway, you might as well get some stuff.
besides, all of those stores are insured.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
hot grits in my pants, or am I just happy to see you?
--- Linux and hot grits down my pants. Does it get any better?
You watch. The next thing will be political dissidents being rounded up and sent to death camps.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Maybe it's because I was from China, and I know many people there liked to be "exploited", just like poor areas here in Urban district in america trying to attract "investments". I normally agree with progressive causes, but not on WTO issue.
Just like in civil right movement, it's admirable that some whites were fighting along with blacks, but ultimately it was fight of black people and nothing could have been achieved without black's leadership and paticipation. If it's a 3rd world's problem, let them fight their fight.
I am aware a lot of US manufacture jobs are lost to 3rd world countries. But protectionism is not the solution. WTO is not the forum. Trying to tie labor and environment into WTO IS making WTO into a world goverment. If you afraid of losing your jobs and want Buccanna be president, say it out loud.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
Most of what I've seen has nothing to do with China being accepted into the WTO. Most of the people protesting have been leftists that just want to bring down capitalism.
strabo,
:-(
Unfortunately, we have a bunch of "yay-hoos" (to quote radio talk show host Jim Rome) who seem to use this protest for (sadly) violent purposes. It's this group that's making a mockery of the _legitimate_ protesters, and the right sentient upstairs help us all if we see a repeat of what happened today tomorrow.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
These riots seemed pretty certain to happen, with as much anger and bad blood over the WTO.
Here are some things that are immediately apparent to me about these riots:
masks
People are afraid at these protests, many are trying to hide their identities with scarves, bandanas, masks and hoods. This can be attributed to three factors, the most important, IMHO, being that people are worried about reprisals and retribution even for attending the peaceful protests. The other two factors seem to be CS gas protection (not effective unless face covering is wet and covers eyes) and the natural inclination to disguise while vandalizing, for the more violent protesters.
disinformation
Major media outlets (CNNonline, local TV in Boston, Reuters) and the Seattle PD are not acknowledging using rubber bullets or CS (tear) gas, despite photos, video and eyewitness accounts of the use of both. Medics have reported treating CS burns, yet CNN claims that only pepper spray is being used.
evolving state of govt and economy
People from all over the political spectrum, left, right libertarian and "buchananites", are out there with a beef against the WTO. People are flying in from all over the world with an agenda against the WTO. Ergo, no one likes the WTO, except for those who stand to directly benefit from it's existence. Those benefits do not seem to extend to ordinary citizens, be they Bangladeshi, American or Estonian. Instead, they seem to benefit an increasingly powerful group of professional politicians, worldwide, and the people and companies that keep them in power.
This "new cultural elite" (LM 125) draws influences from all over the political spectrum, but increasingly demands structure, stability and authority in a suddenly fluid world. It purports capitalism, while working towards something an egalitarian and open capitalism should find anathema. Markets are increasingly being propped up, lowered, tweaked and micromanaged, by unelected "officials" who continuously enact new rules and regulations that directly harm people's lives, with no accountability. The WTO is one of many, many examples of a political tool that does that. In among some of the news stories and weblogs discussing the WTO are some horror stories about things the WTO has done. The major problem is a total lack of accountability, so they do whatever they feel like. The resentment this has caused, worldwide, is prompting people to vent their spleens in Seattle, because they most definitely do want control of their own lives.
J05H
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
um, the WTO cannot overide any contrys laws, unless the contry lets them. The WTO does not have any military force.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I was home-schooled in your mama's boudoir. Boy is she a screamer. AHHHH!! AHHHHHH!! AHHHHHH!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
clinton is making an intelligent decision for a change and allowing them to continue excersizeing things garunteed to them as citizens of the united states of america. i'm actually surprised at the lack of violence from the police. and the restraint that i hear is being used. applause. (and yes, i know, my spelling is terrible, please no flame posts)
One of the problems with riots is that most don't have the same proximal cause as they do have distal causes. What about the riots in a month?
It still kind of surprised me when I heard about the WTO and china being a part when so many people have talked about trying to help tibet... almost like its not an issue anymore.
_joshua_
I got a great recipe for grits from a guy who was a janitor in a building at the University of Washington.
Those were good grits. They were the best grits I've ever put down my pants!
--- Linux and hot grits down my pants. Does it get any better?
I propose a new moderation category:
(I disagree: -1)
I think the comment was suppose to be sarcastic. Besides, I don't think its just upper-middle class, its the whole middle class that generally thinks that way. The only people who could relate, in my opinion, would be those below the poverty line and thus also have problems just obtaining food and shelter. Anyway, from what I've read, its worse when you don't buy those sweat-shop produced clothes because then those workers loose the 33 cents coming to them. Of course I don't see why the GAP can't afford to give the producer of the sweater $6 out of the $50 they charge me, instead of just 33 cents. Then again, I hear the GAP is a cult planning for world domination (or confirmation -- whats the diff?) and that's gotta cost a ton.
Saying "the left" opposes free trade a gross overgeneralization. By this account, Pat Buchanan is a lefty, and Bill Clinton a right-winger. This issue doesn't split along such lines so easily...
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
You are so absolutely, totally full of shit, I'm turning off my computer, and going to bed in disgust.
This isn't about suppression of people seeking to express their beliefs. This is about stopping looters and a-holes who are destroying Seattle businesses because they feel like it. The people being sprayed back by teargas couldn't tell you what WTO MEANS!!!
Get a clue coward- The Mayor said "He went on to encourage the protesters to remain peaceful. "Be tough on your issues, but be gentle on my town," he said. " It's the mayor's job to not only allow and encourage democracy in action, but to maintain the safety of the citizens. The "peaceful" demonstrations are democratic, the mayors actions show that democracy works. The actions of the few who could careless about the WTO controversy, are the one's who hosed it all up. Pull your head out junior!
The coverage of the WTO protesters on all of the local channels (I live in Seattle) has made me want to go play a cut-throat game of Alpha Centauri, and to play for the ecconomic victory. (This is where you win by accumulating so much cash that you can buy all of the other cites). I will have to make sure that the Gian's and the Drones are ivolved so I smash them flat. ;)
I did mathematics. I like subjects where you provide arguments that something is true. I recommend you try a subject like that too.
You spelled truly wrong. HEY MODERATORS! WAKE UP AND FLAME BAIT THESE PUPPIES!
I am a bit suprised to see this on slashdot, but since it's here I have a few things to say :)
I posted this link earlier on the "cyber-sit in story" or whatever it was called. I'll warn you this time that it is a very left-wing site, but don't worry, it won't kill you. In fact, you might learn something. It's a good addition to mainstream coverage that doesn't talk about the WTO at a particularly intellectual level.
Z magazine WTO coverage
I didn't think so many people would end up protesting. This is good because it gives the issue LOTS of attention. As usual the media has overblown the violence, looks like a few bonfires and some broken windows. But it looks like its getting a lot uglier. It's been mostly peaceful from what I've seen other than blocking traffic and enterance to the event. Hopefully people from Seattle will keep us up to date.
The WTO applies to the computer and sofware industry the same as it does to every other industry. The WTO is, in my opinion, a government by and for corporations. They don't have any accountabilty to the public. They can overturn laws in any member country that are deemed unfair to competition. The most common example I have seen is that countries in Europe were cited by the WTO for not allowing the sale of American beef products because the cows were treated with hormones. CNN.com has a few other examples in their coverage.
I think the WTO is an extreme form of capitalism that REALLY puts money before people. It takes control away from local governments and the people.
Globalization definately has its benefits. I think most people reading this can see them as far as the hardware and software industry, especially our trade relationship with Asian countries. I see it as a step twords global unification (well, a really small step). But when labor rights and the environment aren't put first, no one wins, and the gap between the rich and poor gets wider. I think this is why so many protesters have descended on Seattle. Corporations have gone too far this time. The establishment better be careful or the next decade could end up being a rehash of the 60's with globalization as the central issue.
At any rate it's an important issue that everyone should try to learn about.
I was there earlier and saw first-hand the police clubbing people, firing flashbangs over the crowd, and firing and spraying tear gas at people. I saw an entire front line of protesters get pepper sprayed in the face AND THEN CLUBBED BY POLICE. I saw one person who it appeared fell through the front line who was then beaten by several police. I saw several people who became incapitated by the gas shot with rubber bullets and dragged through the streets by police. From my vantage point these people were peaceful and non-violent until the police attacked them.
Not only are they doing no good, but also they're fueled but Labor Unions Advertising money. In fact, they (www.adbusters.org) had the audacity to continue there adverting (I wouldn't have seen them, if I hadn't turned on CNN), even after the rioting.
Meanwhile, important issues like Privacy, crypto, Censorship fall right through the cracks (There was a protest of the CDA in Silicon Valley. 60 people showed up)
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
OK, I was stretching it, but it seems to me like it was the crisis point between government on behalf of the people, rather than based on divine right. Limiting the monarchy, some authority to the nobles, guarantee of property rights, yada yada yada.
;-)
And isn't "Sign this or we kill you," a kind of protest, when you get right down to it?
Is there more to it than that?
Do any of the protesters actually understand what the WTO is and why it exists? Or do they just use protests like this as an excuse to recyle those incredibly stupid slogans from the 60s and 70s? "Hey hey ho ho WTO has got to go!"
I mean, it's been 30 years, people! It was stupid back then, and it's stupid now. Why not come up with a chant that (1) demonstrates that you actually have a brain, and (2) is at least somewhat catchy to the ear? You'd think with all the creative people who are sympathetic, better slogans could be divised. Even anti-US Iranian protesters have better slogans and chants! Heck, even the Greek protesters did better. IMPORTANT NOTE: neither of these two groups speaks english as their native language.
Maybe this just demonstrates the intellectual and creative bankruptcy of the Left in the US?
2nd question: where were these guys when the GATT was around? Duh! Too many NGOs, too few "causes."
These people should just go home and listen to their folk albums. These poor protesters are being manipulated and used by NGOs so the NGOs can get themselves in play in the WTO. Buy a clue, guys...most of the member nations are in the 3rd world, and most of them don't give a rat's ass about environmental and labor laws. In leftist terms, the protest is about the developed country NGOs imposing their western value systems (environmental, labor concerns) onto LDCs (Less Developed Countries), trying to keep the LCDs down.
Yeah, there was a lot of "soul" in the French as they rioted en route to go find a guillotine
So here we have CNN and others reporting on "wide-spread" violence, looting. The press release from the police says only that pepper spray was used. The news media ( a tool of special interests, in my opinion) always puts their spin on things, never an objective report to be found.
I'm not saying that the personal reports here are objective, perhaps, but at least here we can get a view other than the one those special interests want to see.
Freedom of the 'net is just as important as freedom within a country. The 'net is a 'country' unto itself, with few or no boundries.
"We apologize for the inconvenience."
Why don't the protesters ever wear a damn gas mask, you'd think they would learn.
Does that mean that someone can shoot Linus with an arrow too?
From http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991130/ts/wto_le adall_38.html
Governor Gary Locke called up two national
guard units specializing in crowd control and
ordered them to the streets of Seattle to assist
police forces already at the scene. ``We're very
concerned about public safety,'' Locke said
This is interesting, because WHAT THE HELL DOES THE NATIONAL GUARD NEED RIOT UNITS FOR?!? I would assume that they use them overseas as well, but deplowing them in this case is sure to spur more protests.
J05H
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
I apologize for not making my irony more clear.
Beyond the link in my prior post is a fifty-cent rant against the WTO, for exactly the reasons you have outlined.
I am uncertain of the validity of what I have said there, but I am certain of the _uncertainty._ And that, in itself, is the root of my concern.
Cheers!
so, yes the Protesters aren't violating the constitutional rights of the WTO, because the protesters are not a part of the government.
However, I doubt that violent rioting is going to do much for there cause. Most people are going to be turned off by this.
Any organization that can afford slick television ads (I just saw one, from www.adbusters.org, telling people to go to Seattle) Probably doesn't really have your best interests in mind, IMO
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The WTO has many many good points and several very troubling points such as patent issues and the ever increasing power of corporations. Unfortunatly this protest distracts attention from the real issues and focuses them on the non-issues of unionized labour and 'workers rights.' The violence involved makes it even worse, no one will take seriously the intellectual property concerns after this.
For the record I call the labour concerns irrelevant because at heart of the matter all that is important is how much stuff the workers recieve. Lowering tarriffs can only increase the total amount of goods in a country (more goods enter the nation) and while some citizens may be demoted to lesser jobs a fluid job market will guarantee everyone is still employed and hence the country has more goods in total.
So the net effect of trade barriers is to favor organized labour at the expense of the rest of the country. While you might feel that working class people deserve more money this could easily be accomplished by increasing federal aid to those who don't make much money. Increasing this aid would accomplish the goal of makeing sure the working class are not impoverished while not reducing the total amount of goods in the country.
On the other hand the WTO's seemingly strong stance on intellectual property might restrict the adoption of new/more efficent technology thereby making the world as a whole a less wealthy place (yes I realize IP is necessery to encourage innovation the trick is striking the right balance). But this issue will now be ignored.
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
Major media outlets (CNNonline, local TV in Boston, Reuters) and the Seattle PD are not acknowledging using rubber bullets
That's because technically they're not using rubber bullets (a bullet casing with a rubber tip). Rubber bullets can be just as lethal as a bullet with a lead tip. They are using rubber pellets fired from a paint ball gun. Pellets merely sting without breaking the skin.
I, for one, am very disturbed by the fact that most of the clothes I'm wearing were most likely made by underpriviledged workers, not only in third-world countries, but also here in the US. When the people have a very limited choice, when all they've been given are what they don't want, it's not necessarily their fault if they use it. It is their fault if they don't do anything about it.
I'm just afraid that the overly sensational US media is going to focus on the 20 or 30 idiots who made serious trouble, while the other 40-50K people there behaved themselves. The tension in this country has been growing at a very visible rate in the last few years and I think this is just one of the first (mostly) good outwards signs of it.
Being a (young) 20-something myself, most of the people I know (an interesting mix, seeing as I have both leftist or libertarian friends yet go to a very conservative school) are frustrated and angry about the state of politics in this country. The average person no longer has a voice, and large corporations and government institutions are working hard to make sure we have even less of a voice. Restrictions on encryption, anyone? More wiretapping capabilities built into our hardware and software? The "right" of the NSA and FBI to circumvent due process and keep people under surveillence without a warrant?
The WTO (good article here in pdf) has a track record of leveragaing their power to tromp the soverign laws of independent countries in order to make more money (article here). Powerful representatives from the US and large corporations convince small, developing nations that they need the latest whiz-bang-all-in-one products to even survive in the new world. These representatives then provide tasty soundbites wherein they ask for free trade and villify the protestors for not allowing their poor, starving country to get the best TVs out there (yes, bad example, but you get the point). It's for reasons like this that when I have kids they will never ever have Gerber baby food.
And for everyone who's been saying "Hippie, go home", RTFA (articles) before you make yourself look stupid. Thousands of people from all different walks of life are protesting this, not just a few "burnt-out acid-dropping hippies who crawled out of the woodwork", as much as you'd like to believe that. Middle-aged people who know this is a Bad Thing (TM) are right next to youth who feel they want to make a difference and are motivated to do so. Prominent figures have lent their voices to causes such as this, and the difference is starting to be felt. Previous generations had The Who, The Clash and U2 to send out the call for arms and action against the oppresive elements of their times. Today, groups like Rage Against The Machine are sending out the call to action and education to the youth of today. Do you think it's an accident their album debuted at #1 and is currently the #2 selling album in the world?? I don't think anything short of physical action on this scale (meaning large peaceful yet committed protest groups) are going to bring about the change we need.
Educate yourself. Let yourself get angry. And then do something constructive and meaningful to channel that anger. My 100% support to the protesters in Seattle. Not to mention somewhat reluctant thanks to the police out there for not allowing a re-creation of the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago to occur.
-jdm
I disagree
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
Well, sir, perhaps I was misleading when I said that I was currently *in* Pioneer Square - I was NOT trying to say that the turmoil was happening IN Pioneer Square. You are right, it has been mostly quiet throughout the day. Not completely quiet, but mostly - there was a group of people wearing black with costume blood carrying coffins and "mourning" around mid morning, for instance. (no, not the "black robed anarchists" - these were other protesters)
:)
What I was saying is that "the Downtown area (starting 2 blocks north...)" was the location where these things were taking place. For the most part... pretty much completely... my post was referring to the downtown core, not where I currently am. I'm sorry for the confusion...
To clarify:
Yes, Pioneer Square has gone relatively untouched all day today. Yes, the protests affecting this area were last night - I was here working until 2am, and saw that, too. Downtown today was a horrible mess, and that was what I was talking about. I wasn't trying to say that this was armageddon, just that todays events were pretty wild and surreal.
And yes, when I posted the original post, there was an APC parked just up 1st Ave (just past Yesler), and another had driven by recently. There were also several helicopters that flew over this area on their way north. I didn't know when the Nat'l Guard was arriving, which is why I didn't say that they were here - just that they had been called.
On a side note - you said that all the homeless had been 'discreetly removed from the area'? What part of Pioneer Sq were they removed from? The same group of homeless are out in Occidental Park by the firemen statue that are always there - more, in fact, since the paddywagon that is usually parked near there isn't around.
I agree with your post for the most part, although it started out a little more hostile than it needed to be... just my opinion.
- strabo
You are proposing the same outcome from both scenarios. ...imposition of a more global economy, that would bring the American standard of living (which I very much enjoy BTW) out of the stratosphere and onto the more level plane of globalisation?"
On one hand, you state that
"
And then, the last paragraph:
"Would these people still be there if they knew that the alternative to what the WTO stands for is (for example) a 200% increase in the cost of gasoline? Do they really want to HAVE TO grow their own vegetables, pluck their own chickens and ride a bike for transportation rather than cheeseburger-burning exercise?"
These are the exact same end result, one of lower standard of living in the US. Alternative applications for technology are one thing, but outright or subtle attempts to limit American's options in life are going to cause a back lash. Remember the Boston Tea Party?
J05H
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
They trashed and looted Starbucks, broke some tens of thousands of dollars worth of shop windows, damaged/destroyed cars, etc. etc. etc.
You've must have been watching KING 5 TV all day!
Pioneer Square (we live here) is almost untouched. And the Nat'l Guard don't arrive until tomorrow am anyway.
P square was affected mostly *last* night when 8,000/10,000 church-sponsored protestors staged an incredible "human chain" potest which encircled all the parking area of the football stadium, barricaded at either end against their attempt to reach the Paul Allen-sponsored Exhibition Hall, where Bill Gates and Boeing head Phil Condit were "entertaining" (read lobbying) the WTO delegates.
Aim: a protest to make the WTO cancel third world countries' debts. This was peaceful and passed off with NO problem (and almost NO media mentions at *all*). But it was incredibly powerful due to the faceoff of a set of motorcycle cops (approx 40) and riot cops who harangued the demonstrators at the demarcation line. Also because: it was pouring and freezing. They chanted, "We're here, we're wet, cancel the debt!"
BTW, check out how much Gates & Co are paying for their lobbying opportunities at www.corpwatch.org/calandar/
Police restraint? Not exactly considering the marginality of offenses actually committed amidst a 40,000-person union march and constant nonviolent actions by 5-8,000 additional protesters - which occupied most of the day (total arrests before mid-afternoon: 12, including five people arrested for banner-hanging)
None of this, however, involved Pioneer Square (although here, as everywhere else in town, the homeless have been discreetly removed from the area...unlike Belltown, tho, they haven't been replaced by pots of petunias!). The chase/gas/chase and firing of rubber bullets went on all day in the _city center_, near the WTO convention area... our poor excuse for a Mayor, Paul Schell, declared his "state of emergency" around 3pm in a dumb fit of over-reaction.
This was, sadly for him, at the same time as several local newscasters got hit by CS gas. They stopped playing nice guy and pointed out that the cops were firing rubber bullets, lobbing explosive tear gas greandes embedded with same and firing at anything which moved. They, for instance, caught some people on their way home from offices.
Most people here _outside_ the media knew something just like this would happen, for many reasons. One of the main ones, however, is that many people are sick of Gates and Allen being allowed to effectively run Seattle...whether by building sports facilities we don't need or being (esp by the media) treated as our de facto mayors and superiors.
I happened to be near some of the "action" around noon. The protestors blockaded a downtown street (4th and Union for you locals) with overturned dumpsters, and formed a human wall, preventing any vehicle traffic from passing. The police were very patient and tolerant in the face of the screaming crowd. After about 45 minutes of blockade, a police officer announced with a bullhorn that the protestors would be tear-gassed if they did not move immediately. I was only 50 feet away, and could not hear a word the police officer said over the protestors. The people in the back of the crowd (mostly innocent bystanders) had little warning when tear-gas and pepper spray were lobbed into the crowd.
Like the rest of the crowd, I ran down the street, eyes stinging and throat burning. The police were able to clear the road, but for what purpose I cannot tell. The police did not attempt to move the dumpsters so that the street could be utilized.
That hot-spot was in stark contrast to a human chained formed to the east (Pike and Boren), near the WTO meeting site. There, the protestors had a legal advisory team, and a negotiating team in constant contact with the police, and remained calm and co-operative at all times.
In the end, I think this communication between the opposing groups (Police and protestors) made all the difference.
And this is what most of the protestors wanted: to have dialogue with the WTO in any way they could, and try to make a difference.
This has been a riot, not a protest. As an American laborer I've always felt that our products are superior for reasons OTHER THAN political coercion by our unions and moral extortion by well-meaning Activists. We were in Seattle today to protest and make sure the American workforce remains relevant in the eyes of the delegates of the WTO. It was a disgrace. I'd love to say the police overreacted and responded on the command of fattened capitalists... but frankly that would be a lie. The police showed too much restraint on the people who actually caused most the trouble. American labor was hurt out there today. It's really sad because the AFL/CIO came out KNOWING that we would have support from American delegates. All we did was disgrace the American people and fuel suspicion about the great big labor bully. I'd be surprised if the hoodlums out there didn't go a long way towards hurting their own cause. The WTO doesn't even have provisions for environmental action in its charter yet they came out to suck tear gas and disgrace America's name. Shame!
>In 2/3 of the WTO countries, the public would >have been severely restricted a priori, if not
>having "dissidents" rounded up and jailed weeks >before the meeting.
For any people doubting this statement, check out what happened two years ago (almost exactly) in Vancouver for the APEC summit - protest leaders were arrested before the protest on spurious charges (e.g. "assault with a megaphone", an event which had occurred weeks before); protesters had signs seized and were arrested, since their signs were a "security risk" to the visiting leaders, travelling in motorcades a hundred meters away; protesters were pepper-sprayed for sitting down on a road the APEC leaders were about to travel down; etc. etc.
My point: not much of a coherent one, I guess, except for people (esp. Canadians!) not to expect too much out of their police and politicians, and to point out to people in other countries that yes, it can happen to you too. I mean, who'd have thought it'd happen in Canada, of all places! We're not exactly known for militant police here, all Mountie stereotypes aside. And I suppose, strange as it seems for me to be doing, I should commend the Seattle police for not throwing basic rights to the wind when visiting heads of state show up (though the fact that it needs commendation says something....)
Sorry I don't have any links or references, but CBC Newsworld only seems to keep archives back one year and that, newspapers, and first-hand reports was where I got most of my info.
You know what I hate? Wait, what do you like? I hate that!
Couple reasons.
1) There is no such place as "M$ HQ."
2) You are a dork, and obviously an ignorant little kiddie for joining the "it's cool to call Microsoft M$" bandwagon.
3) Microsoft isn't in Seattle.
Have a nice day.
-cow
We in the People's Republic of China thank you!
The power you are showing by squelching the speech of your people brings a tear to our eyes. We did not believe the spirit of state control was so strong in you.
One thing though, get rid of that wussy pepper spray and tear gas, and bring in some tanks and bazookas! Did you learn nothing from our great victory in tiennamen square??
Be assured, when our troops line up the capitalist pigs of America for the final solution, you will be given only the finest Marlboro cigarette, a silk blindfold, and a new Sears Craftsman shovel with which to dig your grave.
Our friend Bill Gates in Redmond glorifies the spirit of communism by holding a massive fortune in his palace (as we do here), and now the Mayor of Redmond does us a great service by pushing forward our WTO membership in the face of hostile peons.
Truly, comrade -- We Kiss You!
The only time that the UN can ever interfere in a country is if there is a major violation of human rights, however this really does not interfere with the right to govern any more then not allowing me to kill someone interferes with my freedom. The ideal UN (as far as they're concencerned) is a body with complete political control. However nobody was willing to give this up, so they gave everybody complete sovernty.
This ideal will never work, as it is impossible to look out for everyone, just look at the Austrian and Ottoman empires. We must however ask how much power the UN should have.
Secondly, if you think that Hiroshima was as bad as the Holocaust then you must be insane. 12 million people were killed in the Holocaust, in a form of genocide, 80,000 were killed in Hiroshima, in what probably saving a 2-3 million on both sides of continued fighting. If you believe this is just propoganda, look at the casualties from the Japanese war, and consiter attacking the Japanese homeland, it would have been a long battle. The entire war horrific, Hiroshima was only a small part of it.
...To get some new shoes and stuff. Maybe do a little X-mas "shopping". Anybody need anything?
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
If you'll excuse my tin foil hat for a second, I think that Clinton is behind the whole emergency declaration thing. Its all a rehearsal for what he's going to try on January 1st. Trying to get the people used to the idea...
I was listening to the radio and one commentator said how easy it would be to discredit all the protestors in seattle by simply hiring a few skinheads to disrupt the protests which would mean that the police would come in and whatnot and no one's message would really be heard. Is this the start of a new trend? I don't know what happened down there but that comment is pretty unfortunate.
I'm not sure which to think actually, if rioting or peaceful protests help more. I tend to think that rioting and violence brings about a immediate coverage but basically no change unless you take over the organization you're protesting against. Peaceful protest on the other hand actually get a message out rather than people seeing that people are mad for some reason... but a lot of people are anti-authority just by nature these days and their 'opinion' about an organization might be swayed simply because other people don't like them.
But who would you rather have protesting against an organization.. a bunch of idiots, or those who actually know the issues?
rm -rf ~/.signature
Mind you, I'm not dissing the reason behind the protesting, but I'm not for trashing things to try and get my point across; my opinions carry the same weight if I throw a brick through a window while being taped by CNN or not. =)
But remember, your opinions may vary.
- HX!
- HX!
if(!caffiene){sleep(now)};
promote himself as a "Marxist" and then not have the huevos to reveal HER identity.
Obviously Marx and Engels were too difficult, and you STILL didn't get why marxism and communism BOTH suck.
May I suggest Animal Farm? Perhaps that won't challenge your feeble mind, and you can really begin to grasp why communism ALWAYS fails.
Eugene is one of the more liberal cities, sort of a hippie haven, and unfortunately home to a few violent anarchists. They have caused problems before: Last June, their anti-capitalism protest in Eugene turned into a riot. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/99/06/st061905.html
As for white supremacy gangs, I don't know. I am aware that there are several hate groups in Oregon, but they don't make themselves visible often.
-resident of Portland
What you have seen is what you can see--that's on the surface. true, free trade in the world "guarantee the best products are produced at a competitive price. Each country makes the products that they are best at." But the fine print of the fact is, by the capital and tech advantages controled by the powerful nations, 3rd world country lost the ability to gain more from high tech products, made of/from the raw materials/half-made materials that are produced by these countries. This is decided by the international division of labor. It certainly looks fair, but not for all sides. It was not "ontrary to what you think we get a good income and good living conditions in the US, the best country in the world." I know the average income in US is among the highest in the world. But the difference between the rich and the poor is also among the highest in the world. "We in the US as well as most countries in the world benefit from a free market place.". That's not entirely true. For poor countries, exhausting resources to do the free trade is not as sweet as the way western countries feel. "other people's property"? whose property? They are not destroying your property, right? Unless you the owner of Nike...The practice of many US companies--move the entire product line to poor countries to reduce the cost is the poison in the long run. That will cut off jobs for US workers. Yes, free trade will provide more jobs. But please look carefully what kind of jobs are being produced, and what kind of jobs are cut off. The jobs for shoes, clouths, telephones, electronics....are cut off because these stuff made in country like China are much cheaper! And the most important, the company who owns the brand can get much more margin of profits for selling these in US!! Of course, US is strong leader at high tech developments. Due to the infair division of labor, this is where US gain advantages from most of other countries. WTO will make sure this continues...
> laissez faire Libertarians who point out that government can't step in and tell the corporations what to do or who to serve
But you're forgetting who allows corporations to be a legal entity. Governments do via a Business License. Government indirectly tells corporations what to do via the piles of laws, regulations, taxes, tariffs, etc.
Of course the solution is not to go to the government asking to engage in Free Enterprise when we ALLREADY have that right. How do you think people did business before corporations were around?
Cheers
WTO. is like a club. You are in a club, you get X amount of concessions, if you give in X amount of grants...., but Who are ganging up to write these rules...??!! Look at the mirror more often guys...
It's almost the year 2000! Get with the times! Give these conference people some computers, Internet access, a chat server with digitally signed messages, some live video conferencing software, and a copy of Quake to settle arguments (or maybe one of those games like Command and Conquer would be more appropriate). If they ever expect to solve their trade problems they need to get up to date with the tools. The WTO website seems advanced enough. Meeting in person isn't that important. Online all they have to worry about are DoS attacks and the usual Internet troubles. (Hmm, an incentive for more widespread high-bandwidth availability and reliability?) At least they won't be (as) physically bothered. It'd much more peaceful if the protesters just defaced their web site. Don't have to worry about the unrelated rioters either... ok we can build virtual stores for them to wreck with virtual hammers... Java's good for something! or is that just another Quake add-on?
Actually, it was a propane tanker.
It was stolen early monday morning, and is most likely completely unrelated. Its a rumor that is probably just that - a rumor.
Here's the text of an article about it:
An alert went out to law enforcement agencies Monday that someone stole a truck loaded with propane.
Security officials at WTO in Seattle were among those notified.
Pierce County Sheriff's officials say the timing of the theft is causing alarm.
The propane truck had more than 2,200 gallons of explosive propane gas when it was stolen at about 3:00 a.m. Monday morning in an unincorporated part of Pierce County.
The Sheriff's Department issued a bulletin advising other agencies of the theft.
The sheriff's office also says there's nothing to link the theft to the WTO
- strabo
"I think you need to lay off the crack a little."
Well put. Encryption is bad. Big brother is good. Lets all just give up all our rights. The FBI and NSA know whats best of us.
Anonymous Cowardz r00l!
ph33r da trollz
I have to return some videotapes...
BS. Half the protestors are stoned hippies that just followed somebody down there.
And anyone who has managed to avoid economics classes are free from such propaganda. Which it what it is. It most certainly not based on any repeatable facts nor any form of science. This is like WiReD and it's "Things are getting better" chant.
Yeah, and free Mumia. Whatever. "Free trade is good" isn't something economists just made up. It's based on solid mathematics and tons of observation. I wish i could draw graphs in a post so i could more easily explain. The bottom line is totally free trade means you'll find the lowest equilibrium price and maximize consumer surplus and producer surplus (both good things, like the opposite of deadweight loss).
The economy in Quebec has been going steadily down-hill since the USA-Canada Free Trade deal was forced on us.
Let's remember that correlation != causation.
Now we have NAFTA. Go and ask the folks in northern Mexico, which has been converted into an ecological desaster area, where the economic growth is.
This is precisely the kinds of issues the WTO should be addressing. Pollution et al are called negative externalities and usually must be handled by regulation. But it would probably be more stable if this is handled by a consensus. So by blocking the WTO from meeting they're keeping something like this from being done.
Are you going back out tomorrow?
The protests are scheduled to last to December 3rd.
Today was probably the biggest due to the massive labor march.
I wish i could have gone. Instead I've taped ~2 hours of footage and collected near 200 electronic photos. Woo!
These should be better in the AM. Reply with new streams and webcams, please.
.wsdot.wa.gov/PugetSoundTraffic/cameras/imagehtml/ cctv117a.htm .asp a pbonline/scannerlive_sea.asx 8 000&file=filename.plsrtsp://kgw.solidweb .com/encoder/kgw-g2.rm
Cameras
http://www.historylink.org/gazette/g azette.htm
http://www
http://209.20.207.37/index.html
http://www.spaceneedle.com/view/livecam
http://www.seattleinsider.com/news/ cameras.html
Audio
http://128.95.10.82:8000/
ht tp://tm.intervu.net/template/smirror/ivtemplates/
http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/ shoutcast-playlist.pls?rn=6416&addr=209.201.3.17:
What's going on in Seattle is fascinating. Beirut you say? Hmmm...
Beirut I can understand. Kosovo as well. This? No. Here? Never!
I grew up in Warsaw and came to the US at the ripe old age of 10 (in '83). By that age, I knew what tear gas smelled like. It's not something 10 year olds should know. But, I can honestly say, I knew if for good reason. I was there when the fuse was lit, on the bomb called Solidarity. That bomb blew up the Berlin Wall and the USSR.
Being from Poland, I imagine that I have a little more insight into the ageless ethnic tensions that made the former Yugoslavia into the blood-bath that it was. A little more insight than the average US citizen, since here people tend to hate each other for color, creed, idealism and other easily observable traits. There, people are more tolerant of such extreme differences, and hate over the history of a neighbor's bloodline. But I digress... (these are my opinions BTW, flame on!)
Seattle is on the other coast, and while I can see it on the screen, I keep expecting Orson Wells to come out of the shadows and laugh into the camera.
I can only ask myself 'why?'...
What do those rioting people rage against? Tyrants? Taxes? The killing of priests? Or is it just the imposition of a more global economy, that would bring the American standard of living (which I very much enjoy BTW) out of the stratosphere and onto the more level plane of globalisation?
Would these people still be there if they knew that the alternative to what the WTO stands for is (for example) a 200% increase in the cost of gasoline? Do they really want to HAVE TO grow their own vegetables, pluck their own chickens and ride a bike for transportation rather than cheeseburger-burning exercise?
And will I have to pay more at Starbucks in the morning?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
The UN can interfere only if they can somehow overpower the violating country. If not by force, then they can try trade sanctions.
These people are idiots.
yeah, but hiroshima was nuclear!!! nuclear BAD! BAD BAD BAD! lets get back to burning coal (which releases radioactive material into the atmosphere as a part of normal operation. But why pay attention to mere facts when we can get emotional?
There was not a single mis spelled word in that post.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
before seven PM PST tonight. Police didn't do SQUAT until these little freaks attacked businesses and started BONFIRES in the middle of the streets!
It just pissed off the british even more. I really doubt that we wouldn't have won the War if it hadden't happend. Read the book The March of Folly by Barbra W Trunchman(sp?). Its an intresting read.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I totally agree with you. Its all about blue color (especially Unions) American worker who wants to get paid with more amount of money and work less amount of working hours, because they cannot compete with workers half way round the globe who wants to work more hours than them. In 3rd. world countries food and momey does not fall from the sky.
Have we met before?
I was there as a peaceful protester, everyone around me seemed peaceful and non-violent, there were drums and dancers and people singing and chanting. Then suddenly flashbangs are going off over us and tear gas is coming at us, and a wall of black stormtroopers is marching down the street with a big armored vehicle creating a huge stampede. I don't know what the police were trying to do but all they accomplished was to provoke a large group of formerly peaceful people.
I was there too, watching this bunch get gassed while laughing in our conference room, which overlooks one of the intersections. People were protesting everything under the sun, including each other...sorry, the SPD, while badly mismanaging the riot, showed admirable restraint in not just wading in with the billy clubs. Most of the bunch out there didnt know WTO from a hole in the ground.
No, this is not true. They can tell their member nations to change their laws as pertaining to free trade. If the nation doesn't want to change the laws, they can always leave the WTO. Please research the WTO before furthering propaganda.
itachi
What news source did you get your information from?
Amazingly, most news reports on this have actually been accurate and not wildly ridiculous (as your claims on what happened are). The only bad reporting on this I've heard is from Hardball and Fox News in general.
The rest (trust me, I've been taping, scanning, downloading related stuff on this for the past 2 days) have been surprisingly close to fair reporting. Sometimes an anchor or reporter's cluelessness comes through, but it gets balanced out at some point in the coverage.
The people destroying downtown Seattle businesses have no valid concerns about the WTO. Hell, most of them probably would be perplexed if you asked them to spell it.
Obviously you missed the video they've been showing all night of these sad sacks looting businesses. It has nothing to do with trade, and everything to do with childishness gone haywire.
In fact, you are partially incorrect.
The U.N. was created with two major missions, both to prevent a recurrence of the horrors of the second world war.
The first was to prevent global nuclear war. Basically, sovereignty was a "bribe" to countries in exchange for their right to wage war. "You don't go outside _your_ borders, we guarantee that nobody _else_ interferes within them."
Hiroshima was only half of what was all fucked up in WWII, however. The other half occurred at Auschwitz. Therefore, the U.N. was granted the authority to intervene in sovereign affairs, when human rights, most particularly in the case of genocide, are at stake.
During the cold war, intervention was too dangerous. It tore at the foundations erected by the promise of sovereignty. Better to permit rights violations than to destroy the race.
The cold war is over. The U.N. can now afford to be more actively involved.
As, in fact, they are.
(after watching the non-stop news coverage for 4 hours...) I don't mind people exercising their right to free speech. The WTO protests were an excellent example of us exercising our basic rights as Americans. But once the curfew was put into effect, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Hundreds upon hundreds of idiotic teenagers were looting the nearby stores of a once-beautiful section of seattle, now not carrying signs but spraypaint so they can put the anarchy sign up where ever they pleased. I don't even think they knew what they were rioting against--they were just trying to emulate the actions of their favorite punk bands. "ANARCHY? YAAAAAAAA!!!!!!" I don't mind the WTO being in my backyard--I like seeing debates and controversy. The riots weren't because of the WTO, in fact, I don't think the WTO was even remotely in the minds of those who rampaged the city streets. One of the funnier bits was when the riot police backed off: the crowd whooped up a cheer of victory and started yelling shit like "eat that, pigs! power to the people!" ... what did they win? what power?
I do not see why this is moderated to "informative" as it seems rather speculative in thinking and lacking in fact.
This scared the shit out of me, too, since the media were obviously being lied to by the police, and obviously chose to believe them over their own eyes. But CNN checked themselves and finally told the truth instead of repeating the press releases in their latest revision of the story.
Western contries will gain more advantage by puting 3rd world into product markets and raw material providers Oh, no! third-world citizens might get money and they might be able to buy stuff with it!!! That would be so terrible.
really this thing is ridicules. The WTO makes no policy on the environment, this would be akin to a mob of people trashing your home because you didn't donate to the salvation army or something.
The only people this hurts are US labor unions, who apparently thing that its much, much more important for US blue color workers to get a lot of money then it is for 3rd world-ers to get food...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Have you tried to get a good slice of French Brie lately?
You won't, not in America. Why? Because the French do not enjoy beef with hormones or chock full of antbiotics and thus have banned american beef. The WTO would stop any country from controlling what is offered at the market.
Regardless of what sweat shop the item came from, regardless of what kind of genetically modified and more importantly UNTESTED food product it is.
It would be allowed into the coultry and the mouths of its citizens.
The average sweat shop worker workes for a pittance, the labor put into a Kathee Lee dress is about 30 cents and yet were I to buy it, it would cost $130.00. This is a travesty. I no longer shop at wallmart because of that. What matters to wallmart (and most multinational corperations) is the bottom line. This attitude does not make them as an imployer look to the US or any relatively stable country in search of workers. Quite the opposite they for exploitive enviorments such as china or 3rd world countries where they labor is cheap as hell and more money can be made. Plus the fact that you no longer have to worry about any enviormental laws and can pollute at your convieniance.
PROFITS UBER ALLES!!! that is what WTO is all about.
These things are important, and we should know about them.
On tv just a minute ago, they had some video of one of these freaks trying to pack a 27" tv into his car, as the King County Sherriff (THE Sherriff) ran towards him.
Oh yes, there was looting.
Why Seattle? Because Boeing has shipped endless jobs out of there in the last few years. Japan, China - they're all getting a slice. When a Chinese machinist costs $20 less per hour than their US counterpart, you can bet your bottom dollar that job will move.
You know, I keep hearing people like Michel More, and other hardcore left/Hardcore right complain that jobs are leaving the US. And yet, no one has ever said why it is that US jobs are more important then jobs in other countries. Yes, they pay less, but then Mexicans still need to eat, right?
So, I would like it if you would answer this question:
Why are US jobs more important then jobs in other countries?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The opposition to the WTO is people disgruntled with politicians basically being puppets for corporate rule.
So obviously there's opposition to this amount of corporate power as well.
Great post -- with one flaw: "nice purging riot."
I'd be with you all the way up until that point.
And at that point, since you're suggesting rioting in Seattle, it instantly makes it my first reaction to try and disagree with you as much as possible. I'm from Seattle (out of the country for a little while at the moment), and I have to say that I'm right with the protestors until the second that they start getting violent. That's the fastest way for them to get me looking for reasons to support the WTO, regardless of how morally correct or reasonable their causes may be. If you can make your point by other means, I'm willing to listen (though I prefer well-reasoned arguments to sitting around inflatable whales -- though that's fine to get my attention as long as your message doesn't end there). But, for purely emotional and somewhat instinctive reasons, violence near where I come from just pisses me off and is the best way to turn me to the other side.
Ok, that was a nice refreshing rant and I feel much better now, but, really: what would you expect a riot here to accomplish here that hasn't been done already (aside from destroy your credibility)?
From the mouth of a little immature brat who does "first posts!!"
Violence begets violence. It doesn't matter if the store is owned by Ma and Pa Kettle, or "Faceless Coffee Vendor Monolith 1.0" They should have continued protesting nonviolently.
They deserve what they get (teargas and rubber bullets).
AHA!
we have found an american upper middle class among us!
sigh.
i'm sure quite a few people said the same thing about hitler, mussolini, tito, stalin, etc.
hell, they aren't killing anyone i know, so what do i care?
dear lord, stay away from the u dub. they're a graduate mill. huge school. no concerns for the individual.
Hrm. I dissagree with the protesters, in both there means, and there goals. So, I'm ether a troll or a WTO astro-turfer? um. Yeh...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Interesting points, all. I wish you the best with your protesting. Me, I'm just anti-everything, more or less. Or, if you're an optimist, I'm highly pro-Me. But if people get their kicks enslaving the downtrodden masses / fighting for the cause of the downtrodden masses / being downtrodden... well, more power to them. None of them are right, and none of them are wrong. We all choose our respective poisons.
----
Morning gray ignites a twisted mass of foreign shapes and sounds
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
Its very interesting that when there is demonstrations, let's say in Yougoslavia or Indonesia, we talk about the 'right' to demonstrate, democracy, freedom of speech, etc.. yet here about 20-30 black garbed nut cases out of thousands (according to local media) of peaceful protesters cause trouble and there is a curfew imposed and the National Guard is called in. What is the difference? As for the result: it is a success! You might not like how it turned out but the media has given us nothing on WTO until now, when they cant avoid the story. Let's face it...who would have even know about the WTO if this had not taken place? As for the media; if you choose to live your life and believe ABC, CNN word for word then Im sure you must believe Bill when he says that Microsoft is there for the betterment of mankind. We saw how the US media was totally bamboozled during the gulf war (How many of you know that Allbright said last year that 500,000 dead Iraquis children is a price she's willing to pay? ) We know find out that Kosovo was a big lie too.... Gee..really!!! You would figure that after Vietnam, people would learn. I guess PT Barnum knew people best! When Cliton was in Greece last week, they had massive virulent protests against him in pouring rain,..the streets were full of people for blocks and blocks....did it make it in the news? Of course not. What about when he was in Italy? Same thing.. Thank god for Italian satellite TV. Media will NOT give you the truth, its that simple. And yes, the topic is valid here because in this group we are a bunch of people who dont believe the Microsoft party line. We are people who dont depend on the media machine to know what Micro$oft is all about. Come one..honestly...how often do you hear about Linux in the mainstream world? Micro$oft rules the corporate media world and that's why the release of Windoze2000 will be another schmooze fest and Bill will keep getting all this good free press about all the money he is giving out.
Asking US soldiers to take action against US citizens is wrong. People join the armed forces to protect their country, not to suppress their own countrymen.
does ever single story REALLY need to have microsoft bashing? get a life
Welcome to the world. Years ago we used to shoot rioters and looters (I'm not kidding, shoot on sight), not feed them crumpets and tea.
Go walk up and down Pike and Pine, between 2nd and 4th (actually, you should have done it earlier when the freaks were roaming the streets) You'd see a very different version of the story, with people rolling dumpsters at the cops, throwing bottles, and smashing and looting. Plus once you were inside the police lines (I work in there) you'd have seen anarchy in action. I didn't mind, and was in no danger (I look like one of the protesters), but to the normals, this is definitely an emergency. I'm just waiting for all the idiots from Portland and further south to come up and join the fun.
I heard of Eugene, Oregon several times over news today, mainly about a gang from there smashing shop windows in Seattle. I remember read some stories about White superamacy gangs in Eugene that beat blacks up etc. I'm suprised that liberal place like Oregon has this kinda radical groups, anybody has more information on that?
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
There is more than just the one post there. There is a discussion of a sort that you no longer see on /. because the pace here does not lend itself to serious discussion.
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
so, yes the Protesters aren?t violating the constitutional rights of the WTO, because the protesters are not a part of the government.
I'm not sure I'm parsing your comment correctly... that was my point. I was responding to the previous poster who had claimed that the protesters were infringing on the WTO delegates' freedom of assembly.
I agree that violent protest usually doesn't raise people's opinion of you. (But that's not universally true...) However, most of the protest was not violent- see some of the other posts here, and read some of the news stories and you'll see what I mean. It certainly wasn't a bunch of people who just got together and decided to break stuff to protest WTO.
Any organization that can afford slick television ads (I just saw one, from www.adbusters.org, telling people to go to Seattle) Probably doesn?t really have your best interests in mind, IMO
Yeah. Though that pretty much applies to everyone in the whole mess equally. I'd study the issue, make up my own mind, and stay away from either side's propaganda.
-jacob
This is absolutely true. But what of it?
Those who can afford to set up manufacturing plants inforeign third world countries and ship manufactured goods benefit immensely from Free Trade. It allows them to exploit the rest of humankindfor our North American benefit, and profit ridiculously for doing it.
In other words, poor people in foreign nations get job opportunities they wouldn't otherwise have. So the poor get richer as the rich get richer. And they produce goods more cheaply so consumers can buy them more cheaply, thus have more money to spend on other things. So the middle class gets richer too.
In short, the rich get richer, the poor get richer, and the middle class gets richer. What's the downside?
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
Live MP3 stream at http://128.95.10.82:8000/
1963 Civil Rights, 1969 anti-war, 1992 pro-choice rallies in Washington: all changed history. (I hope I have the dates right)
Well, if you actually studied more of Econ than just what you needed to get your little BA, you'd have also studied the parts about stakeholders, and how there are costs many people face that have nothing to do with making money. For example: What's the point of having a great economy for the next ten years if, after that, we don't have any trees? This is the primary complaint of the protestors. They (rightfully) believe that the inflated economic gains from free trade are at the expense of other stakeholders (workers, the environment, the poor) thus incurring larger unmeasurable costs.
For example, a classic econ argument for free trade is that if increasing the number of sellers floods the market and lowers the price, then it is good because consumers can buy more with their money. Problem is, what if you flood the market with gasoline that polutes the drinking water and kills millions of people? If you could measure that cost, it would surely outweigh the benefits of the drop in price for a product.
Also, think about who teaches an Econ class: Business people who want free trade because it gets them more money. Of course they believe it benefits everybody, but when was the last time you heard of an Econ professor who teaches in the ecnomic wastelands in northern Mexico? These people are generally out of touch and have a distorted view of the actual costs of their free trade dicisions. They typically only view the world through their limited set of straight line graphs and can't even acurately predict anything if you think about it.
Finally, economics has two serious philosophical flaws: 1) The belief that complex systems are deterministic. 2) That a complex system can be modeled using simple formulas if you hold all other variables constant. Remember that "all things being held constant clause"? The only way an economist can do economics is if they hold all variables constant while they do calculations. Now, how many truly complex systems can you think of with constant variables of any kind?
So, just cause someone worked up some nice graphs with some nifty formulas, doesn't mean it is true. Hell, I can probably work up just as convincing an argument that capitalist economics doesn't work (like Marx's, but better and more based in reality). That's the trick of Mathematics, given enough time, you could prove just about anything.
Its "For" the labor unions, who want to keep Jobs from the third world, and here in the US. Why? beacuse there selfish, thats why.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I'm not a fan of RATM but...
As an avid music fan and political addicted person, I've fully investigated the RATM issue. Basically it comes down to...they want to get their views across to the largest audience they can. Their own personal political views may conflict with what they have to do, but the benefits outweigh the "hypocrisies" they have to commit. They could distrubute their material through a small, independent, collectively run label to a small audience. And since they aren't such a good band in the first place, likely never reaching more than 5000 independent music fans. Or they can play by the capitalist rules to their benefit, reaching an audience of millions of people. Out of those, many of them won't get their messages or completly understand them...even though they're completly shoved down their throats. However, it's MUCH greater than the amount they would have reached otherwise, who would also have likely already have had similar political awareness and interests before listening to them.
Could the fact that the French fringe wants to separate from a nice, stable economy like Canada have anything to do with my capital and intellect are fleeing Quebec?
Could it be that the reason that Canada blatantly violated the rights of it's 'free' citizens while teh Seattle police show 'remarkable restraint' under similar situations is the fact that US citizens, unlike Canadians, still have the right to arm themselves?
Think about it. The police in Seattle had no choice except to excercise restraint. That's because here in the US, the least citizen still has the right to arm him or herself. The police in the US know that if they push too far, we have the ability to push right back.
That's why there's such a big push for 'gun control' in the US. Once the citizens are disarmed, police in the US will be able to round up people ahead of time and trample their rights all they want. Just like the Canadian Mounties. Then they'llbe able to make sure things stay nice and comfortable for visiting dictators or WTO representatives without something as trivial as the will of the people getting in the way.
Remember, 'peace' and 'profit' are not the same things as 'liberty' and 'justice', and are not nearly as important. The police serve the interests of peace and profit (aka 'Law and Order') before they serve justice and liberty. Which do you prefer?
And before you start thinking "it can't happen here" with regards to the Canadian (or even worse Chinese) abuses to human rights, think on this: The only reason it can't happen here is because US citizens are armed and therefore in a position to forcibly prevent it. And once we are disarmed too, just wait. It will start happening here.
Will you people please stop using the word anarchist to describe pointless idiotic violence? That has nothing to do with anarchism. Go read some Kropotkin or Bakunin if you want to know what anarchism is. If you silly Americans don't stop abusing the word, I'm going to start calling these adolescent vandals "hackers". It makes about as much sense.
The cnn link listed in the article is broken. The correct link is here.
-jacob
Many (probably more so than punks) Anarchists are not "punk rockers."
As a participant in the punk-related subculture, it is rather stupid. So are the people. There's different factions, different types of bands, everyone thinks "punk" has some special purpose...anything from complete chaos (i.e. justification for senseless destruction and violence) to being homophobic, racist, sexist, etc. to be very peaceful, intelligent, etc.
As for anarchists, I'm sure quite a few people there were anarchists or sympathetic to anarchism....who could look like an average joe, stereotypical hippy, or even "punk."
The violent/destructive types were a select few, non representative of an entire (non) political practice or music subcultures.
Chumbawumba did the same thing. During the 80s in early 90s they followed the usual political band route which was to not sign to a major or do interviews with major magazines and so on, but they eventually decided it would be much better to jump into the game and actually reach an audience. They ended up producing a hugely popular song. How many people were turned on by their political interests due to this? Who knows, but surely much more than they would have reached otherwise.
Isn't there some wat to rank it as STUPID, instead of REDUNDANT?
Probably not - especially since here, it applies more to the geographically impaired poster than the post itself.
Thus it begins.
I find it pretty amazing that people were able to motivate Americans like this, what happend to the culture of apathy?
Oh well, I guess they have a right to exspress there oppinions, but they should have been a little more courtious.
Z Magazine is a good resource for non-Big Media reports on what's going on in Seattle.
> ...a group of hippies...hodge-podge mix of students and "labour union" supporters - union stiffs...
It is easy to attack the protesters by characterizing them as a group of "Hippies students and union stiffs" without bother to ever understand or address any real issues they might bring up. I find this attack on the character of the protesters a cheap attempt to discredit them without actually addressing any of their reasons for protesting.
The very fact that we are discussing this at all seems to contradict the idea that protesting is ineffective. After all, if there were no protests in seattle, I wouldn't have known about the WTO meeting at all. Plus, this calls to attention the standpoint of the protesters to the masses, and their grievances are now being heard worldwide. This is sure to generate more followers of their ideas, and more people means more clout.
About international students:
:-) agriculture, even physics and math. While the research in those majors still got funding (you can not really shutdown Physics dept.), got teaching assistant positions to fill (you gotta have people to grade the papers), ANY AMERICAN WITH B AVERAGE CAN GET IT.
What's wrong is really American education system. Have you ever take a GRE exam? The math in there is laughable.
But anyway, any American student get a B average and willing to go to Graduate school can get Aid. The problem is there are many majors that having trouble attract Americans, like mining, (field study in Dakota
But it seems they just not interested, instead they drop out of high school and get married at 20 and join the union and protest against WTO.
I think American kid watch too much TV.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
It gets going here. Worth skimming. (OK, so I am biased, but I don't feel like retyping all of those points I made..:-)
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
the Magna Carta (OK, that was an insurrection)
sufferage
slavery
black rights
pretty well everything else I can think of that's important
Come to think of it, I can't think of very many protests that went anywhere that _weren't_ for good causes.
feeding the hamsters in your Lada?
Thank god you went for toilet paper last night, so you can be here with us tonight...
Although I don't really agree with what many of these protesters are saying, I'm extremely happy to see these people out in the streets as one force standing up for what they believe.
:) in much the same way many people did before the American Revoloution (Re: Boston Tea Party)
First off, 95% of the real protesting was non-violent and even when it was violent it wasn't really violence aimed at humans or police. I watched coverage from 11:00am until 8:00pm today nonstop and I was quite impressed with how well the protest was carried out. People were firm in their beliefs without being extreme. They set out to stop the WTO meetings an they did.
Their were two main groups of "problems" however. The first came early in the day and broke lots of windows and spraypainted stuff. All in all, not that much damage. They were basicly anarchists standing up for what they believe in (Anarchy, duh
The second group was the people who came along after most of the protesters had left These were the same type of people who riot after their team wins the World Series and were basicly their to have fun. Losers that bullied us in high school and are to be expected.
Anyway, please don't believe exactly what the media tells you is going on here. I expect the next few days to be somewhat the same as today; hopefully better as most of the idiots get tired of teargas.
Click here to read too much about my personal life
Doesn't this summit involve trying to keep trade with China? When I heard this was going to happen a week or so ago I thought that something might go down and a lot of people would be angry. There are many who support Tibet and want China to leave them alone. One of the efforts was to boycott products from China in order to show disdain for their policy in regards to Tibet. If that is what the riot is about, then it is sad to see it has turned to violence. There werent too many details I could see, so we will have to find out what really happened.
_joshua_
So, exactly what did happen to the right to free speech and the idea that we, in America, have the right to recall an offending institution or policy? Let's all give a big pat on the back to government oppression of its own people. (niteq)
I've got this mild addiction to hot grits in my pants. Can he help?
--- Linux and hot grits down my pants. Does it get any better?
Now if we could just get them to move the meeting a few miles down the road.... Say Redmond for example. Sorry... Obligitory M$ bashing... Had to be done.
I'm not sure I'm parsing your comment correctly... that was my point. I was responding to the previous poster who had claimed that the protesters were infringing on the WTO delegates' freedom of assembly.
:)
Yes, it was your point. I'm agreeing with you
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Free trade in the world guarantee that the best
products are produced at a competitive price.
Free trade guarantees nothing. We've had free trade here in America in the software industry for years - need I tell you where that thought is going?
the US, the best
country in the world. To think the contrary is
a symptom of stupidity and ignorance.
Heh, funny how that looks when you move the context around a little. I bet all those poor, unhappy, ignorant, and *cough* stupid FINNISH people are feeling pretty bad for themselves right now. Yup. Life is hard over there in the boonies.
The criminals in Seatle are for the most part
unions brainless jerks, basket weaving university
graduates and other morons.
Heh, you've just made this too easy.
Anyways, I use the subtle flame to make a point: There are no guarantees - we, as Americans, are not all THAT much 'better off' than a lot of citizens of socialist, semi-facist, or other democratic countries - Free Trade is about money, money, money, money, and it aint about money for you or I, unless you happen to be the CEO of a great big company.
Those of you who think otherwise, take a little step back for a moment, and ask yourself this:
"Would a group of representatives from countries that want money, meeting with a group of private citizens and/or money-driven politicians, be likely to seek solutions that benefit me in my everyday life?"
FUCK no. Money, money, money. None for you, monkey. WHY would they go through all that trouble to make YOUR life better?
--
Blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
I've taken part in two of the protests.
The first was last night, when a large number of local church groups held a protest service, and then planned to march to the nearbye exhibition center where at WTO reception was being held, to create a human chain around it. The cause being promoted was the cancellation of Third World debt. This had been planned way in advance, the schedule was even in most of the papers. Yet for some reason, the Seattle Times reported on this the next day as an "impromptu demonstration." huh?
Anyway, it turned out the police had put up big barricades (concrete blocks and chain link fences) and the planned march wound up getting bottled up in a (newly) dead end street. After some confusion people worked there way around to where you could actually see the exhibition center, and we were treated to the bizarre site of Seattle cops wearing heavy riot gear, and phalanxes of police motorcycles and armored vehicles. It looked like something out of Judge Dredd. I began to wonder if I was still in the USA.
Then this afternoon, I marched in the AFL-CIO sponsored protest parade. This was the "legal" protest parade, and several tens of thousands of people turned out. I must say it was inspiring to see ranks and ranks of people of all shapes sizes and colors, ahead and behind as far as I could see. People were very well behaved, and I didn't see any violence. Nor did the cops feel the need to show up in such overwhelming force.
Turned out this was because they were off bashing the heads of the "illegal" protestors. I heard some experiences from a woman I rode home on the bus with afterwards, as well as from a protestor who is staying in our house while he is in Seattle. Apparently the cops were not just firing tear gas into groups of protesters, but grabbing peoples heads and spraying pepper spray right into their faces. What the hell is that supposed to accomplish?
After we got home, we watched the coverage on local stations (which were reporting the use of CS gas). The police were denying the use of rubber bullets, but NPR reported that the streets were littered with them. The protestors who are staying with us just game home, and said that somebody in their affinity group got shot in the face with one.
I think things would have stayed mostly peaceful if the mayor hadn't decided to impose a downtown curfew at 7 p.m. and order the police to clear the streets. Once the police started rushing the groups of protestors, things got ugly fast. I saw footing on one of the local news stations of a policeman firing tear gas cannisters directly at a protestor who was standing with his back to them.
A friend pointed me to indymedia.org which has lots of eyewitness reports and even some footage which isn't being shown in the major media. Check it out if you want to know what is going on...
It really is too bad. Here we have a group of people who were trying to peacefully make a point about their objections to the WTO. Unfortunately, some other people couldn't keep it peaceful, and then the forces of law and order started resorting to violence even against those who weren't using it themselves. As a result, we're bound to see a lot of commentary on how people are animals, since we all riot at the slightest opportunity, or how the government is oppressive because they pull out pepper spray on peaceful protesters.
Unfortunately, this probably means that the message that the peaceful protesters wanted to get out, that the WTO has a poor track record with environmental and worker issues, is going to be pretty much lost in the noise.
As far as whether the WTO is beholden to only corporate interests, that is entirely debateable. But you have not offered an arguement, or evidence, only an empty assertion.
Finally, I did not say I would prefer to purchase things at the lowest possible price (though I might). I was simply responding to the assertion about maximizing freedom. It is a fact that lowering trade tarrifs and regulations increases the liberty of the buyer and seller.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
... and I cannot wait.
The gap between the rich and the poor is ever-widening.
The WTO has the power to override national governments. That means that your precious Bill of Rights is out the window as soon as it gets in the way of profits. Enviromental protection laws are completly overrided as well. The WTO encourages child and slave labour - anything that keeps the rich of the world wealthy is encouraged by the WTO.
DON'T BE FOOLED - THE WTO HAS A HAND IN ALMOST ALL MEDIA OUTLETS!
THINK ABOUT WHATS GOOD FOR THE PEOPLE (that's you). ONLY DISOBIDIENCE CAN RESOLVE THE SITUATION!
I can assure the geek population (what does this have to do with 'news for nerds', btw?) that, to paraphrase another individual, reports are greatly exagerrated. The mainstream media and local coverage will begin to cover in more depth some of the amazing things that happened at the protest shortly, as soon as the idiots who have nowhere else to go disperse. Right now all that can be shown is just the blow-by-blow of what's going on in the streets right now. But this protest was an amazing success, one that will be remembered for some time to come, both for the things that _did_ happen, and for the things that did not (bloodshed, truely widespread looting, massive arrests, or truly violent confrontation).
Since I would not use this as a forum for political activism or similar unrelated offtopic discussion, I won't go into further detail, but if interested, email me.
Check my Go-related blog for beginners: DGD
The protestors are being rude and unfair. They are savage beasts who's only goal is damage the downtown of Seattle. If they really cared about trade they would have actual intellegent debuts rather than listening to hippy banter on about the injustices of WTO just cause his other hippy friend claimed there was. 1/2 of the protestors don't know what they are protesting! In the USA you have the freedom of assembly and these people are assembling leave them alone. How would you like it if a bunch of successful middle class business men put on ponchos and starting smashing your house just cause you were holding LUG or a political meeting?
He is chairing this meeting of the WTO.
The people tearing up Seattle (look at what they did to a coffeehouse - ON CAMERA) have no political agenda. They aren't protesting the WTO. They're just sad sacks of $hit who have no respect for other people's property!
I agree, I watched the protest on TV all day.
A group of people were going around all in black and breaking windows and throwing trash everywhere. But other people kept on cleaning up the trash that these vandals were throwing out and telling the vandals to stop. This group, called the anarchists, were thirty people in a group of 60,000 people. I was suprised that there were so few of these people in such a large group.
A group of protesters grabbed a street intersection and the entry to where the delegates were meeting and wouldn't let the delegates through, but they were simply blocking the delegates, the only physical violence that I saw was a delegate hitting several of the people that were blocking their way.
By ten oclock these protesters had been hit with at least ten canisters of gas, sprayed with pepper spray, shot with rubber bullets and attacked with flash-bang devices for at least an hour. The protesters held their ground and refused to surrender the intersection. During the course of these police attacks a few of the protestors became angry with the police and were physically defending themselves by tossing the canisters back at the police and building a baracade of tipped over dumpsters which some lunatic protestor set on fire. (That was a stupid move, gauranteed to make the headlines.)
Once the delegates were in the building the attacks stopped until the Union march finished around 3 pm. Then the police continued to attack the intersection.
By 5:30 most of the protestors had gone home, only a bunch of angry young people were left, less than 5,000. They vowed to hold the streets but were pushed out of the downtown area by 7pm so that the delegates could go enjoy a nice catered meal at the flight center.
The protestors were pushed further and further back into residential neighborhoods where the continued police gas and pyrotechnics attacks were affecting the older people and children in the neighborhoods. At 11pm several hundred policemen are chasing a lesser number of protestors through the streets of Seattle. It will be over soon.
The one thing that I found really interesting about the protest today was the lack of press coverage today on anything other than the local channels. By 3pm CNN was doing a 5 second blurb every hour and Fox didn't even to seem to know that there was a protest in Seattle against the WTO. By this time the Govenor of Washington had called out the National Guard. But Pete Rose was interviewed live all day long...
I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories, but the lack of National Press coverage, the biased reporting against the protestors when the news was finally reported at the end of the day, and the police response toward the protestors leads me to one and only one conclusion. The system is rigged and ran by those with money.
I know that most of you are saying, what am I some sort of idiot for not realizing this years ago? My only excuse is that I saw what I wanted to believe was true. For those that don't believe this, wake up. For those who know the system because they are the system, beware, my eyes are open now and I will be watching you very carefully.
I am going to my first protest tomorrow morning at daybreak. See you there.
The real scoop? Maybe www.indymedia.org has a bias that you support but don't even try saying that indymedia has the real scoop about what the situation is.
No, not the colonial system. Look at any one person. They are better at some things than others. I personally can't write poetry. So I'm not a poet. I play with networks. But if everyone played with networks, who'd write poetry? I don't know how well Ginsberg (sp?) would be with computer networks, but most people think he writes pretty good poetry. A real world example of this is sugar and hops. Sugarcane doesn't grow to well in the pacific northwest of the US. Hops (as in beer) do. Meanwhile, sugarcane grows pretty well in cuba. Really well. Hops, not so well. In the early 1960s, Fidel Castro tried to diversify Cuban agriculture. His plan failed. Not for lack of trying, but because other crops didn't grow very well, and they weren't producing enough other farm goods to make up for the sugar they weren't growing. Specialization doesn't mean only producing one good, it means producing the things that are most efficiently produced. Would you suggest that farmers in Canada grow bananas? Or that miners in Wales and West Virginia give up on coal because then they'll be dependant on trade? That is a very bad plan. It's not Orewellian to make your living by doing what you do well, it's smart. I am sorry if I did not make my use of the word specialization clear in the first place.
itachi
Are you out of your mind?
You mean all of these people (lowest estimate I've heard is ~30,000, most over 50,000) take time off work, families, other duties, spend time planning this finding a pklace to sleep, what to do etc. all for something they don't have a clue about?
That surely makes a lot of sense. of course some person behind a computer screen sitting at home knows far more about it than people down there protesting. Right?
But with possibly 30,000+, it's just plain stupid to try to form and express an opinion on such an issue without doing some decent research into it.
And the WTO has been a rather secretive, non news making thing until now...so that makes this sort of turn out even more remarkable (where as Vietnam war was well known to the US public).
30,000 protesters is rather historical, not to mention similar protests in other locations around the world, probably totalling to well over 40,000 protesters, all displaying disatisfaction for the same thing.
a group of hippies is able to halt international-scale discussions. This is disturbing not only due to the magnitude of the trouble they are causing, but by the very nature of protest itself.
Among protests throughout history, very few have led to any constructive change, and more often than not, the protesters and their causes are likely to suffer. By its very nature, protest is destructive, not constructive, and offers no solutions. That such a hodge-podge mix of students and "labour union" supporters - union stiffs - are able to cause such havoc should certainly be cause for concern for everyone.
We have only had this "free-trade" crap for twenty years or so, before that everything was heavily regulated, lots of tarrifs. All of our real economic growths and prosperity (for everyone) occured before this free-trade crap became a religion. Now, its all about profits (to stock-holders) and a huge increase in income-disparity (less than 1% of americans have 40% of the assets in this country). For the last 20 years, real ecnomic progress has stopped, real (time/interst adjusted) wages have fallen.
www.paywatch.org
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!
Curfew? Why not martial law? In what democratic do you use curfews? Why not have them after baseball, hockey, football parades too? Why not have permanent curfews? Why not have kids under 18 in their homes all the time after dawn? Ahh yes...you can have your democracy..as long as its in other countries. The chinese werent allowed being Tianamen Sq either..but they were fighting for democracy, weernt they? And dont we teach countries all over that you shoudl stand up for democracy? So what we have is democratic rights until we say you cant have them anymore? That is a joke ..but then, so is your constitution! You like to parade it but it comes to crunch time, you will do nothing to protect it. As for the punks destroying, Im with you 100% but is a small handful of kids bent on destruction enough of a reason to have a curfew and the army? (sorry, the National Guard is just that. They are not the boys scouts.) That is democracy? Wait...I forgot.....In the US, 100% of the people working in big companies have to give prove their innocence because 10% use drugs. Remember that bit about 'innocent until proven guilty'? You like your constitution but would you protest to defend it? Of course not...and that is why its useless. It is something you like to flount but for which you would fight.
I turned on CNN afrer reading this post, it seems the Natnl Gaurd has been called in
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I watched the protest for about 3 hours off and on and everything I saw, from when the first trouble started at noon to later in the evening, pointed to the rioters for starting the trouble. These people were NOT just standing around and then some big bad cop came up to them and decided to be mean. Before they started firing tear gas the people were WARNED and told to disperse. Especially later on after there was a curfew implimented and by law they had to leave the affected zone, yet they just continued to provoke the police. The violent ones got what they deserved (although I think the police should have arrested any of the ones who atttacked local businesses, but they just remained standing in formation). And like it's been said before, most were peaceful, and I commend them for that. But the tear gas was only used when the people were given orders by the police and they refused to cooperate.
Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
rtsp://kgw.solidweb.com/encoder/kgw-g2.rm
Economic growth does NOT benefit everyone Yes it does. A rising tide raises all boats. ...When you use up massive amounts of resources... 1800's - US gov't declares only 20 years of oil remaining 1900's - US gov't declares only 20 years of oil remaining 1970's - Club-of-Rome think tank declares only 20 years of oil remaining Hey guess what? The supply of a resources isn't as important as how much of that resource our improving technology makes available to us. ...generate huge amounts of waste... Industrial processes are continually getting cleaner. Cheer up, the world is a good place after all and technology continues to make it better.
It's obvious that free trade, unchecked, can have disastruous effects on the environment and developing economies. Well I'm way over on the east coast, so I've no chance of joining in the action. Is there anything that we can do remotely -- have the various organizations who have joined the protests developed an online forum? As reported by the BBC today, the net is useful not only for organizing the effort, but also for disseminating the message.
Yeah. that's right. WTO is tool for the giant capital to control the world resources. And WTo will put the international disision of labor into a way that only benefits only about 10% in US. For the whole world? Western contries will gain more advantage by puting 3rd world into product markets and raw material providers. The difference between rich and poor will become larger and larger. My dear American people, please ask yourself: where did Bill Gates get his XXX billian $? Read Karl Marx's book and your will find the answer. :) But a easy hint for most of brainless people, the average income growth rates of US workers are not as big as the ecnomic growth of US. The $$$ is becoming more and more centralized...
Those were two examples of what was wrong. I apologize if I offended you by using them both in the the same paragraph. Perhaps I should have used Stalingrad instead? Passchendale?
The point is that there are two things that are majorly wrong in war. One is internal to a country and the other is external. The U.N. is an attempt to address both.
As for the rest of your discourse, I'd agree with you if you were right. Guess that makes us both wrong, huh?
I thought that Keynes had been laid to rest with Marx, Mao, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and other fairy tales.
And then the police showed up and teargassed them all.
Oh yeah, am I the only one who's noticed how flatly awful the tactics used by the police were? They'd line up in a group of about 10, and march very...slowly...down the street, firing tear gas in front of them, in an attempt to herd the protesters out of an area. But no one was watching behind them! You could see /pedestrians/ on the streets behind the cops, and there was no reason people couldn't just make an end run down a side street and come up behind the riot cops. If a few hundred people with gas masks, real or improvised, came up behind them, they would have been utterly and royally screwed.
Um, no one had mentioned this when I posted, how is it redundant?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Sometimes got your a* kicked too?
It kills me how bright people like you don't know the first thing about corporate promotion in the music industry. The reason it has sold so many copies is because someone felt that it would sell copies. Fame and fortune doens't happen by accident in the music industry; it happens by getting signed by a big label who thinks that your music could sell. Hypocrite. You say it yourself that companies are drowning out the voice of America, and by listening to corporate-inspired and promoted music, you only encourage the problem. Any of the bands you stated fall under the corporate umbrella. Otherwise they wouldn't be in every single CD-shop in the entire world. I'm offtopic -- but on target.
FYI ... Adbusters was started by an ad-man who wanted to use his talents for "good" instead of "evil". A big part of their philosophy is using the tools of the dominant culture - advertising - to communicate progressive messages. Basically, if slick advertising is the "Lingua Franca" of our society, then slick ads are the best way to influence and impact the populus.
My favorite ad campaign is the one where they post billboards of in the style of the Marlbrough Man, where one rugged cowboy says to the other "I miss my lung, Bob."
BTW, Adbusters has had trouble buying air time, even when they have enough contributions to pay the fees. Many stations won't run their ads at any price, because they are "too anti-capitalist".
You might want to look at their site, it's really quite interesting.
- bridgette
The WTO is about tearing down trade barriers and allowing free trade. Only the special interests would be against this. Those special interests that have a monopoly in an area love trade barriers that force consumers to buy from them.
The political left, via the labor unions are against free trade. They support the protectionist policies that force people to buy their goods. Instead of the politicians and unions deciding, why not tear down trade barriers and let the consumer decide what to buy?
"other people's property"? whose property? They are not destroying your property, right? Unless you the owner of Nike..
Um, the rioters in Seattle are destroying property, like stores and stuff. and not ones owned by Nike ether.
And while its true that the gap between rich and poor in this contry is high, our 'poor' people are still very well off compared to other contrys (A chines factory worker, employed by the Comunist government btw, makes abotu $300 a year)
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I realize that it's been criminals looking for an excuse doing the looting, rather than the protestors (so far). I'm just opposed to whoever happens to be doing the rioting -- if it's vandals, I'd be opposed to them anyways, but if it's protestors, then they're losing supporters.
(I do have to say that I think both the protestors and the police have shown good restraint -- though I hope the protestors stop blocking traffic: there are other potential supporters I know out there who have to get to work who won't think any better of them for it.)
My favorite: The "You're not perfect so shut up" defense.
Yeah, things are wonderful, its just about impossible in this society to buy things that are not made in sweatshops, or were not manufactured in an environmentally destructive way.
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!
.
Yeah! I'm so angry I could protest me a new TV!
Its a group of bureaucrats, who get to make political and economic decisions for you. You do not get a say in who they are or how long they serve. You do not get a say in their policies. You are a serf. This is like Saxony, circa the 780s. Forgive me, but I like things like liberty, freedom and democracy. These guys are only accountable to multinational corporations, not to the people who's lives they effect.
Besides, when someone proposes something new, I think it is the responsibility of the proponents of the new idea to prove their concept is better.
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!
And I didn't know that it was them who had been running the 'I miss my other lung, bob' billboards. Those are great :)
However, whether or not they are 'doing good' is a matter of debate. Would Seattle have been so ravaged if there ads hadn't run? I think that's a question that they really need to ask themselves. The info about the protest on there site was your typical information-free political propaganda and nothing more then rhetoric.
If you want to fight a cause, disseminate information about it. Let people make up your own minds. If people chose not to join you, then maybe you're in the wrong.
Advertising is about manipulating people, not informing them. I certainly wouldn't call what I saw on CNN an "Unadverizment" it was as much a political ad as anything else. (actually, it was a hell of a lot better then most political ads, but that's another story)
Just because an idea is progressive, it isn't necessarily good. And, once you stop disseminating real information, and start producing propaganda, then you are no better then anyone else. You're just another salesman, pushing your ideas, regardless of how correct they are.
Advertising, in the form used by corporate America, and by adbusters.org is not designed to inform us, but rather to control us. Corporate America's message is simply to buy their stuff. Adbusers has a political agenda, and is using the tools of advertising to push it.
There was another organization that used modern advertising to achieve its 'new' goals, It was called Nazism. And they were pretty successful.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Being a Marxist and a heavy computer user, I think this is the one of the first actual protests to be orginized mainly online. Solidarity!@!
howver, it was already getting attention prior to the problems. But now it's getting even more, and if things turn out peaceful and still productive tomorrow, then it'd probably be a great formula for public awareness.
Btw, Civil Disobedience often encounters violent reaction from police. Since those participating in whatever part of the action are going to be causing problems for the interests of those they're protesting against...who the police are there to serve and protect. A lot of the stuff started with police beating, pushing, pepper gassing, and shooting rubber bullets/pellets at completly peaceful protesters who just happened to not listen to their orders (which of course is part of the Civil Disobedience). To avoid all confrontation, people would just have to...not show up at all and stay home.
1) When the message is "Go educate yourself. Find something worth taking a stand on and fix something bad", then yes, I listen to that message. The point wasn't whether or not I take advice from any group, the point was "Musicians can reach lots of people, especially the youth, and a popular group with a strong, intelligent message can affect the political and economic landscape." Would you rather I listened to pointless drivel such as Rush Limbaugh? Be a dittohead? Or would that make your comfortable life of ignorance that much easier?
Too bad.
2)And the only laws the US Gov't can enforce are the ones given to them in the Constitution explicity. All others are reserved to the people and then the states. And if you believe that, there's a nice bridge near NYC I'm almost 100% positive you'd be interested in.
I think you left out a word or two in your last sentence. It should have been "... the BENEFITS they think they receive from trade." But, yes, the governments and businesses receive benefits. Too bad the people they step on and bury don't. Do you think it's coincidence that when Mexico needed help in kicking out naitives to get at oil reserves down south they came to the US? The US gov't has the money and experience in that field.
BOTTOM LINE FOR IGNORANT PEOPLE
Yes, I listen to the political messages of a band.
Toodles.
-jdm
It is rare in the course of human affairs for the right thing to do to also be the economically beneficial. Free Trade is economically beneficial to the US and it is also the right thing to do because is greatly helps other countries. Of course, some people suffer. But why should I subsidize an illiterate U.S. manufacturing worker so he can buy a new car ever five years instead of taking my business to Mexico where some poor person needs the money to support his family?
I find it odd given the libertarian streak of most geeks to find such support for WTO bashing. I'm all for helping the poor in other countries. That's why I support WTO and NAFTA. Most of the talk about global labor standards is just a way of undermining the comparative advantage of poor countries who desperately need jobs.
Most of the environmental concerns can be dealt with in other forms. It is good that people in rich countries are concerned about the environment. But it is morally reprehensible that these people want poor countries to pay the cost of protecting the environment. That's what environmental protection clauses in the WTO would do. If you care so much about the environment, agree to pay poor countries cold hard cash to not burn forests etc. It is intellectually dishonest and morally reprehensible to transfer the costs to poor countries under the guise of protecting "human values versus global capitalism." I'm not great fan of capitalism, but it is capitalism that allows me to consume over 1000 times the resources consumed by an average citizen of India. It is capitalism that gives me the freedom from want.
Ooh, protesters turned out by labor unions own spending, oh my. Meanwhile the WTO is fueled by Bill Gates' money. Fabulous. And, uh, www.adbusters.org or whoever has anti-WTO views are supposed to cancel all advertising because the Seattle police are shooting tear gas at people? Uh huh. And world trade isn't an important issue? You're no brain trust either.
I watched a considerable part of the protest on two TVs. The police were not the problem. There are documented (TV) excerpts were protesters were simply pushing their envelope too far. Add to this considerable acts of vandalism, property damage and assaults on non-participants and it was a bad mix. Most of the protesters were peaceful. However - the protest organizers bear a considerable responsibility for the results :
This is not a full-scale riot. Many people decided they wanted to protest the WTO (World Trade Organization), so they were standing around the buildings, many waving signs. They were some people who decided to "riot" and throw garbage cans through Starbucks's windows, but most protesters were non-violent. I live in Seattle, and it wasn't that bad. The curfew is just so the police can question people wandering in that area, but will allow people with business there to keep inside the "curfew zone." President Clinton will be arriving shortly, (Dec 1st I think), but the National Guard will be there, unarmed, to protect Clinton and support the police. But tonight (Nov 30), they decided to be safe, so they put the curfew into effect.
btw: An interesting bit of info. A protester was hanging from the Old Navy building using a mountain climbing harness to hang a sign saying Old Navy uses slave labor. If you looked closely enough, he was wearing Nike shoes, one of the companies targetted for slave labor. Maybe he is only against slave labor when if doesn't effect his fashion style.
I live 5 blocks from the riots and this is no state of emergency.... what a joke.... This "mayor" dude, whomever he is, is going to lose his job!
What do you think of Germany, then? It seems to be a pretty big economic player to me. How about the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Finland? That's right, our hero comes from a hard-core socialist country. He has often publicly linked his relaxed views about money to the culture of Finland and to his upbringing. in particular, his father, a journalist, is a major dyed-in-the-wool left-winger. Read the existing interviews with Linus, and this point comes up again and again.
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
Very good CS dept, tho dont know much about CE... Have several friends there and was until recently taking solo classes there (good post-graduate courses as well). Best to you. -=Kyriani=- (I go by my handle because no one believes my real name)
Qui tacet consentit
I'm really disappointed to see these responses on slashdot. I was under the impression that slashdot readers were more intelligent than the average joe. Instead they seem to be reciting word for word what has been being spoonfed by the mass media.
"Just victims of the in-house drive-by they say jump, you say how high"
Here are some links to alternative news sources, many reports from various of the protesting groups. Get away from the Corporate news bullshit and expand your mind...
One World
WtoWatch
The Mid-Atlantic InfoShop
You, I, and most every other breathing human in North America (and elsewhere) sees this shit on CNN or our local TV station(s).
Of what possible use is this on Slashdot? Is it to become a news portal? Or a political breathing hole for geeks?
Shut up with "breaking news" already, Roblimo. E-commerce on the agenda or no. Riots we know about long before they're posted here. You're not fast enough to beat the news networks on this kind of thing and you won't be for some time. You don't have an uplink truck or a camera crew.
Stick to News for Nerds. Stuff that matters.
OK?
reformhead
Call out Jesse Jackson...... He will fix it. He fixes everything.....
This means that people *DO* care if their rights are take away by megacorps! (the WTO is pushing agreements hard that distroy indivigual rights to help corps)
It is AMAZING what's going on outside right now. I work in the Pioneer Square section of Seattle, just on the south end of Downtown proper. I'm probably insane for still being here, but that's what they pay me the big bucks for, right? Oh yeah, I'm salary. :P
Anyway, I've been watching this whole thing unfold all day, and it has been absolutely insane. The National Guard has been called in, the Downtown area (starting 2 blocks north of me right now) is under curfew until morning, and the tear gas was so thick at times that you could barely see across the street!
When I came down here this morning, it wasn't too bad - there were several tens of thousands of people protesting, but it was mostly under control and peaceful. A little tear gas here and there, but not much. The condition deteriorated throughout the day until around 4:30-5:00 - it started to get dark, and it seems like all hell broke loose.
Watching the news (and the streets, for that matter), it was very surreal - the first thing I wanted to say was "this is happening WHERE?" It looked like CNN coverage of some foreign city under seige by terrorists - not kidding at all... Police in all their riot gear, herding people out of the "curfew zone", shooting tear gas and pepper spray, rubber bullets, and now the National Guard. My kid sister even got tear gassed on her way to work this afternoon!
All in all, I must say that the police have shown some pretty decent restraint through all of this. Lots of gas, etc, but not too much violence, and VERY few arrests - I think the count is at around 22 people. 22 people out of THOUSANDS really isn't bad. The VAST majority of the protesters were also very well-behaved and got their point across well. It wasn't until some of the "hey, let's go riot!" people started coming out of the woodwork before it got nasty.
Very odd day, all in all. There's helicopters flying overhead every couple of minutes, and APC's just up the street, and I'm not sure how I'm going to get home, which is on the other side of the locked down area, but very interesting nonetheless...
*grin* Never again will I say "it couldn't happen HERE... not in MY town..."
- strabo
Listen to history happening.
I was there and can tell you from first hand experience that the VAST majority of people there DO know the issues. They do know what the WTO is about. The violence was almost exclusivly directed at corporate facilities, places like The Gap, NikeTown, US Bank, small independant stores were left alone. People there WERE expressing their beliefs, even those who chose to do so with violence. I saw first hand non-violent peaceful protesters attacked with tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets, and clubs. The majority of the violence was provoked by the police. This is about suppresion of people seeking to express their beliefs.
Although these protesters may have valid concerns about the WTO, but violence like this makes their causes look bad and the result is that people think that ALL of the supporters of these concerns are as violent and idiotic as these protesters are!
Bravo...These people just destroyed much of their causes credibility! Whatever happened to rational, NONviolent civil disobedience a la Emerson and Ghandi??
Respectfully,
Kevin Christie
kwchri@wm.edu
They're not necessarily lethal if you use them correctly, ie. shoot towards the ground from where the bullets ricochet towards the mutant-hippie-communist who dares to oppose greedy corporations. If you shoot AT the m-h-c then the risk of terminal injury is high. In either case there will be those bullets littering the streets.
Umm.. you saw it on TV? You weren't there?
In other words, poor people in foreign nations get job opportunities they wouldn't otherwise have. So the poor get richer as the rich get richer. And they produce goods more cheaply so consumers can buy them more cheaply, thus have more money to spend on other things. So the middle class gets richer too. In short, the rich get richer, the poor get richer, and the middle class gets richer. What's the downside?
You just don't get it, huh ?? Maybe actually thinking about it would be a great idea. The question is *why* are people protesting. Or just read the writings of Noam Chomsky somewhere on "www.zmag.org" and perhaps you will grow a brain, you brainwashed sucker.
If I'm not mistaken, democracy is a kind of government where the people decide for themselves. We generally add to this characterization that we refuse laws that breach on certain rights, even though at some point in time a majority of the population wished for those laws.
:-) ).
:-)
In many Western countries, there are periodic protests on trade, many of them because
- farmers don't see how they could make an honest and decent living given the current conditions
- consumers don't want to eat some things that some producers propose (hormone-enhanced beef for instance)
- people are generally weary of the effects of capitalism focusing on short-term profits.
For those who might go into auto-fire mode and say I'm some kind of pinko or whatever, let me first tell you that I'm neither socialist nor communist, and some people even think I'm extreme-right. The point is that I have no ideology, thus I anger all those who have one.
It is a fact that capitalism needs regulation. May I remind all readers of the financial crises of 1929 and following, which ruined the lives of many people and promoted fascism and nazism (when people are in dire straits, they vote for whoever gives them a strong direction)?
But let's go back to democracy. Often, consumer-driven prohibitions of certain goods seen as hazardous in a country are seen by journalists of other countries as hidden protectionism.
For instance, the US press lambasts European governments because European customers don't want to eat hormone-enhanced beef (remember East German athletes?
The press also lambasts the said governments because of protests. Hey, my, I never saw in this country protests where we had to send armored personnel carriers, rubber bullets and reserve army, and even impose a curfew! Such methods would surely be called "brutal" by the US press were they applied in any other country!
Now, in the United States, Americans are protesting against similar mistreatment of consumers.
Perhaps the US Press should apologize to other countries for their biased reports. That would of course suppose they have decency and professionnalism. I think they have little of either.
[I'm not chauvinistic on this one: the international coverage of the French press is not good either, and the British one is abyssal.]
Now, what are the news from Seattle? I'd like to know the news from first-hand knowledge, not some fat-cat anchor that just sits in a studio and reads some communique.
I, like most of the people in western washington, watched the riots on tv for most of the afternoon. I would have to say that the police response was definately appropriate to the percieved threat. In EVERY circumstance, the police made repeated efforts to allow "protesters" to disperse before using tear gas or rubber bullets. In many situations, the rioters outnumbered the police presence by and order of two to one. The courage and clearheadedness under pressure the SPD displayed today was commendable.
The real tragedy of todays events is the fact that a few organized, radical elements in the crowd of otherwise peaceful demonstrators would incite and entire city to rioting.
In the later moments of police/civilian skirmishes (which ended about 10, 10:30 pacific time) the civilians were obviously there with NO purpose. They had no signs, no agenda, and were simply out there to stir up the storm. I hope tomarrow has a more peaceful outcome.
Always the crowd did this, the police responded. Unless, of course, the riot took place in Yugoslavia or Iran, where the regime, and therefore the police, are BAD, as we all know. Then it's the other way around, and it's all rigt to say that the police attacked the crowd and started randomly beating up people, and some people threw rocks back at the police.
"Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot."
"Ergo, no one likes the WTO, except for those who stand to directly benefit from it's existence."
And us astro-turfers...
Well, the UN Didn't enter Kosovo, it was NATO. And it pissed a lot of people off (most notably China, bombing there embassy wasn't such a good idea ether)
Anyway, I realize that Countries are going to like the idea of sovereignty quite a bit, because if sovereignty is lost, the people signing the treaties loose power. Its an important thing, for those in power. Since I'm not in power, I don't really care.
Because your rights aren't necessarily preserved. Can you vote rulers/officers of these Para-national bodies out of office? Are the actions taken by such a body (actions that affect you) open to public, open review? Is there a legal appeals process and what are your rights under that process as a citizen? And beyond the protection of your rights under such a system, on a pragmatic basis, is power adequately distributed via a system of checks and balances to prevent or ameliorate corruption or tyranny?
These are all good questions, and right now the answer seems to be no. But that's not what I'm talking about. Obviously I don't want the US government replaced by a bunch g8 members and people who meet in closed conferences lead by Bill Gates. What I said was that if I keep all the rights I had now then it would be OK. This includes the right to vote, and to know what my government is up to. Let me state again: As long as I retain the rights I currently have, I don't care who's running the show. This is more then just free speech, but also the political rights I enjoy as well.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I have a great deal of tape of the protests completly peaceful.
Things didn't get even remotely violent until late afternoon. Which was different isolated areas. Some people there reported police starting the violence because protestors wouldn't obey their orders (surprise, that's what civil disobedience is about!) and others report it started because of a small group of violent, agressive people.
Police interviews on the news even say they feel things were really peaceful and great...one interviewed police officer even discredited slanderous remarks against the protestors made a few minutes earlier by a pro-WTO person.
Moral of the story: things were a success, except to the people who started watching news after 8pm EST who seem to be braindead...since they actually believe the first thing they hear off news reports.
A few people were violent, thousands upon thousands were peaceful...a few police officers were aggressive and probably many others were trying to do their job and also not cause any problems.
Surprising to see many on /. taking the part of the yahoos in the anti-WTO crowd. Personally I'm glad to see the anarchist few tar the not-much-more respectable message of the majority of the protesters.
Luddites is what they are.
The WTO helps keep special interests from using vote-based so-called democracy to preserve their past advantages against progess and the future.
Free trade is about the only counter against power run amuck in the form of big groups getting governments to protect them against the non-group individuals who actually form the vast majority.
Now, where is the proof that this is a bad thing?
After all, isn't increased trade good?
Take the Nestle Infant Formula in Ecuador as one example. Nestle gave Infant Formula to UNICEF for impoverished, uneducated Ecuadoran mothers. The package had a picture of a plump, healthy baby that led these illiterate women to believe that the Infant Formula was better than breast feeding for their babies, which is very far from the truth. Both UNICEF and the Ecuadoran government passed legislation (democratically) that banned the use of packaging that might be considered misleading. Nestle complied until the creation of the WTO, when Nestle brought charges of unfair trade barriers against Ecuador. Ecuador repealed the legislation due to threats of severe economic sanctions, undoing the protections for the most vulnerable segment of the population.
Something I just learned about listening to Democracy Now! at Pacifica News was that the Australian Beef Industry has charged the US with trade barriers due to the fact that the USDA must inspect beef. The US government has decided to accept Corporate Inspected Beef as the equivalent of USDA Prime, complete with stamp. That means you can no longer trust USDA beef as having passed certain standards. If your wondering what the problem with that is, please go find out why the USDA was created and look at many of the causes for food labeling and standards that began being passed at the turn of the century. You'll lose your appietite.
Another example is the EU and the opposition of the European public to accept hormone treated beef. The US has imposed massive trade sanctions against EU exports due to legislation (democratically passed) banning the import of hormone treated beef. While you may not see anything wrong with hormone treated beef or other products, Europe does, and Europeans have every right not to accept it on the same terms they accept non-treated beef. Yet the WTO seems to think otherwise.
You can argue that no-one has to join the WTO, but look at the pressure the US and other developed countries have put on those who do not seem eager. Not joining the WTO can limit foriegn aid, foriegn investment and trade at all.
I believe that peoples rights come before corporate rights, and that none of the things we do in this world are worth anything unless it helps the common good in one way or another (yes helping yourself can help the common good). Pushing corporate profits is not more important than helping humans better themselves. I also think that those that have more ability and resources have a moral duty to help those that don't. I live by this and I think that anyone who wants to be seen as a truly productive member of society should believe this principle true to some extent. We are all part of a system on this planet, with the environment and with each other and we are only as strong as our weakest link. We can't help everyone, but we can ensure equal oppurtunity for most. The WTO is not about that or any of the other principles that the US or most democracies were founded upon. Please get more info before passing judgement on the protestors in Seattle, they may be saving your health and your freedom.
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
But it still doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to sell and produce hormone treated beef in the EU. If the EU farmer cannot produce and sell it, why should an American farmer be allowed ?
"I know that most of you are saying, what am I some sort of idiot for not realizing this years ago? My only excuse is that I saw what I wanted to believe was true. For those that don't believe this, wake up. For those who know the system because they are the system, beware, my eyes are open now and I will be watching you very carefully."
Next time, try the blue pill.
...saying that "Antitrust laws suck -- here's a donation of $50billion -- get rid of them"
hehe
from what I saw first hand, the police's response to the protesters is what incited most of the violence. YES there were people there protesting violently, but they were few and far between (except a few large groups of black clad anarachists). Once the police began to attack people the violence became much more widespread.
you know, it would make sense for the WTO to inject felonious protesters so as to bring on a police action that would distract the media from actually covering the peaceful protestors and disseminating the anti-WTO agenda.
hmmm....
The protests have been good because it is free speech and civil disobediance in a most American fashion. In 2/3 of the WTO countries, the public would have been severely restricted a priori, if not having "dissidents" rounded up and jailed weeks before the meeting. The degree of coordination of the protestors in taking downtown Seattle corner by corner and holding territory was impressively effective.
For the police response, it appears that they have taken back downtown Seattle in an organized and efficient way. The Governor's State of Emergency giving them a legal basis, the police have shown an amazing amount of restraint... there have been a few minor injuries, but no clubbing/takedowns/violence. I think that this is because the police would have been outmanned at the peak of the protests; when outmanned, they would have to use a greater proportion of force to disperse the protestors. Not to mention that after 12 hours of marching, the protesters would be easier to move.
I've been watching this live on Northwest Cable News for a couple of hours... Congratulations are in order to both sides for a good show.
Oh... and leave it to Seattle protestors to loot Starbucks... I can just see the stocking-capped hoods making off with pockets full of biscotti, pilfered mochas, backpacks full of stainless steele travel mugs.... in LA they have the sense to loot consumer electronics... guess in Seattle they have to feed their community addiction.
-Rodent
>Dumbshit. You big dumbshit. I'm in total agreement with this post! Except maybe I would have added a 'fuckhead' or 'retard-bastard', etc....
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
Read my plan to save the Bengals
ok
two things
1) you seriously take your political advice from bands?
2) there is much talk about how the WTO has super-governmental powers, yet the only sanction they are really able to enforce is non-membership in the WTO. Yet despite this, most of the governments in the world believe that they are better off accepting the decisions of the WTO because of the BENEFITS they recieve from trade
No, wrong. The CCP and goverment are considering people's ecmonical interests more than the political interests. SO, there will be some small disorder, but the overall will be quiet. In US, the interests of big capitalists will be the first priority therefore you got all these protesters.
You seem rather quick to discard a principle (sovereignty) that has been around since the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, underpinning the basis for relationships between nations at first in Europe and now around the world.
"I don't interfere with the way you run your country (unless you give me permission first)." It's a great principle, based in part on the golden rule (after all, I don't want your country interfering in our political process/internal affairs either.)
The EU and WTO technically don't interfere with sovereignity, since both countries agreed to the terms of those agreements up front. U.N. intervention in a country is more suspect, since U.N. membership is not predicated on such a contract. The U.S. invading Kosovo, IMHO, is a good example of violating another country's sovereignity (bombing a country that is killing a few thousand of its citizens.) There are various arguments about what heinousness of activity or what degree of multi-lateral assent from other countries or bodies like the U.N. justifies violating another country's sovereignity. But that's a whole other debate.
I care about my rights, and as long as they're preserved, why should I care whose running the show?
Because your rights aren't necessarily preserved. Can you vote rulers/officers of these para-national bodies out of office? Are the actions taken by such a body (actions that affect you) open to public, open review? Is there a legal appeals process and what are your rights under that process as a citizen? And beyond the protection of your rights under such a system, on a pragmatic basis, is power adequately distributed via a system of checks and balances to prevent or ameliorate corruption or tyranny?
These are all grave concerns that many people have with the multi-national bodies that have sprung up within the last 50 years. Sure, the UN/EU/WTO/etc have valuable uses for our global society; that's why they exist. However, many of the bodies appear to be less democratic than the nation-states that populate them. The concern is (as with software licensing), who controls the code?
--LP
With any luck, people like you will go away once Slashdot becomes more mainstream. The "I can't like that ... it's *gag* popular!!" crowd. Otherwise, get an account and show some intelligence.
-jdm
http://tm.intervu.net/template/smirror/ivtemplates /apbonline/scannerlive_sea.asx
However good those links could be they will no doubt be biased, just a different spin than the standard news media.
Meanwhile, a fellow Californian of yours is suing Canada for not letting him buy our water. He beleives that he has some God given right to be able to trade ANYTHING no matter where it comes from or what the effects of that sale are. The reality of this whole situation is that a "free market" economy is utterly untenable on a global basis. The notions of supply and demand do not cross environmental borders without sever consequences. People have to learn that there can be LIMITS to what they can and cannot buy, and they should deal with those limits in a LOCALIZED manner, not by spreading the pain to other, poorer parts of the world.
The fact that America's entire industrial base has been exported as a result of globalist policies such as NAFTA, and GATT (and now the WTO) means little to any of the parties these days, as there doesn't seem to be an advocate for the working man any more. *everyone* seems to be in the pocket of the corporates these days... which is sad. I suspect people won't start to wake up until THEIR high paying high tech jobs meet the same fate. OH? don't think it can happen to you? what makes you think your job is safe? That all those US universities that subsidize *thousands* of foreign students each year on YOUR tax dollars aren't teaching them the same things that they're teaching you? What of those students who actually go back to their countries of origin? Such as the Indians? What happens when there's enough programmers in 3rd world so that the corporates can farm out YOUR job to some guy living in a hut for 10 cents an hour? You don't think that won't happen? It happened with textiles, steel, the automotive industry, all the rest of manufacturing, and now the computer component industry is almost exclusively in Asia. So go ahead and think of this in terms of sovereignty, but I'll tell you what, it's not really about that.
If the corporations are running all the political parties now, then they actually control the national & international policy across the board, and all this is in fact a moot point. However, I don't think we should make it easy for the corporates, by just letting them walk right over western democracies like an Oil company in Africa. Perhaps the corruption of the planet is inevitable, however any delay is welcome.
I didn't say it was right. I just said that their violence was politically motivated. It wasn't senseless or random. The protest was against corporate domination, that is why those who chose to protest violently destroyed corporate franchises and not independant stores.
they're rioting against bad software from redmond... free the source! move the protest!
Then they can simply leave. No one is forcing them to be a part of it.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Folks, if this is restraint, I'd hate to see them when they're pissed off.
I was downtown from 6am until 7pm providing medical support for the activists. It's vitally important to sift through what's being placed out on the corporate media because much of it is at least partially untrue, and some of it is blantantly false. PLEASE GO TO http://www.indymedia.org/ a media collective that has formed in the months preceeding the WTO conference, for the real scoop on what's happening in Seattle. Up to date web casting, video and audio from the front, and other goodies.
On the issue of police "restraint:" There were multiple situations that I was a witness to where the police were far from restrained. A few examples:
- while clearing 3rd Avenue approx 5pm: there were approximately 15 protesters sitting down (being non-violent) confronted by at least 20 riot cops. The protesters were asking the police what they were planning on doing. The cops remained silent in a standoff for 10-15 minutes. SUddenly, and without warning, a cop threw a concussion grenade at one of the protesters and followed it with pepper spray directed at all persons in the area, including media (with press passes), bystanders, and the (non-violent) protesters. None of these individuals were any threat whatsoever to any of the officers. At the very least, they are required to give a warning.
- in another situation, i was attempting to treat a (non-violent - noticing a trend here?) protesters who had been sprayed directly in the face at close range by an officer. I approached the line of cops and stated that I was a medic and that I wanted to treat the individual who was sitting directly in front of the officer. I sat next to him and began to flush his eyes out with saline solution when the cop TOOK THE SALINE SOLUTION OUT OF MY HAND AND THREW IT ON THE GROUND. He obviously didn't make it through "Restraint 101" at police academy.
These experiences are common to nearly everyone who was on the front lines of the demos today. The cops provoked this, intentionally. Please watch the news as it breaks, http://www.indymedia.org.
Personnally, I favor the existence of a world organization dealing with trade. The reason is that all too often, trade is dealt in obscure ways.
Political methods are used: for instance, to have the EU accept something, the US says it will retaliate against some products, including some products from the UK. Simultaneously, the mainstream British press (owned by TWO media moguls - so much for pluralism) says that because of bureaucratic silliness in Brussels, UK farmers suffer. The UK's prime minister is then forced to calm down its public opinion by asking the EU to cave in to the US.
The problem is that NONE OF THE ABOVE IS ABOUT TRADE! This is all about UK domestic politics.
On the other hand, the current WTO is not a decent alternative. Why should we accept that panels of so-called experts tell our countries what to do? These experts are not elected, and their decisions can be lead by their ideologies or the bribes they receive from corporations (even if such bribes would be legal, they are bribes, morally...).
I would rather favor a forum whose deliberations would be public and where various governments, non-governmental organizations and the like would meet. Actual witnesses of things to be dealt with (for instance, farmers or workers or consumers) or really independent scientific experts of various opinions would then be called (as it is done in courts of justice, after all). Then a deal could be made. Backroom maneuvers would be much more difficult.
That's not the problem, as you see, a good portion of the "umph" in the WTO, is, you guessed it, the US.
The whole point of protesting the WTO in america is because it affects us the most in a postive factor, and it affects third world countries in a VERY negative manner for that benefit.
So, I would like anyone to explain to me, why the US would be the slightest bit interested in seceding or ignoring one of the provisions laid down by the WTO if they are the ones creating them in the first place.
Remember folks, the US is one of the largest exporters AND importers of goods. Also because of minimum wage and other labor laws we are free from having to worry about being slave-driven, like a lot of people in malaysia and costa rica (which, how hilarious, is where a good deal of intel chips are made) are being exploited for our benefit.
This has a lot more effect than just a few of highstrung hippies (which they're not, a good deal of them are college students and laborers) protesting.
I personally see a large crop of labor unions popping up very soon if this happens. Temp services, in many regards might be just that in today's world. (although it doesn't work nearly as well)
-Erik-
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
can you be sure where all your clothes come from and who made them? Fucking stupid twat.
There was a protest at euston station in london or near it anyway. One van got torched. Police just mostly herded the people onto a concourse and wated for them to get bored. Only saw one injured protester on the TV. There was not state of emergency and as far as I know, no rubber bullets either. Brad
Thank God no one votes for the chair of the WTO or Red Hat. Voluntary cooperation is fine - government enforced support of some so-called national position is a form of theft.
The multi-national corporations as well as the multi-national institutions mostly have to act in accountability to the people of this planet, AS INDIVIDUALS, who either support their activities one at a time, with purchases or with action, or don't.
In contrast, Governments - especially in mass democracies - can pretty much do as they please unless the overwhelming majority becomes completely outraged. Making governments especially the so-called democratic ones the fiercest enemies of individual rights and of progress.
For example, small numbers of consumers wanting paper sacks for their purchases or not wanting genetic-modified foods cause the sacks to appear and the GM foods to disappear - economics & voluntarism wins cheaply.
On the other hand to get a government to end apartheidt or discrimination against gay soldiers is almost impossible.
World trade is the ultimate in OPen Source - people can go with what works fir them, one at a time.
As one who was at the protest on Tuesday, (but not in the riot), I must first say that some of the claims that news media has made are false:
1. The protest was well organized. It was not the disorganized mass that it has been described as.
2. It was peacefull, for the most part. I, personally, saw no violence at all, and I marched the whole time.
I could go on, but more important then the spectacle of what happened is the fact that all manner of people were working together. Labor unions and environmentalists were working together. Greenpeace and loggers were actually walking alongside eachother. This level of cooperation amoung such diverse groups has not been seen since the 1920's, when labor conditions were so bad in the United States that there was really no other choice. The stock market in this time period was, remarkably, very similar. Most stocks were inflated wildly above their "real" prices, and most stock-related profits were made by trading, not by the company who issued the stock giving you some percentage of their profit.
The people of the world can now show this solidarity because of the tremendous threat posed by the WTO's policies. If the WTO is allowed to pass laws as it pleases, it will invalidate our constitution, and we'll have no legal recourse against it. Here's why:
1. The MAI (Multilateral Agreement on Investment) specifies that if a law of ours causes a foreign company to loose money, we can either compensate them for this loss for an indefinite period, or we can remove the law from our books. This is happening in the state of California at the moment, on the subject of a gasoline additive.
2. With this power invoked, we will be at the mercy of anonymous, non-elected international panels who will, in secret (if requested to do so), review our laws, and tell us to change them if they pose a problem for some company. For example, if X-Oil company were allowed, in another country, to refine oil by methods that leak ungodly amounts of pollutants into the water and ground, but were not allowed to do so in their refineries in the Puget Sound, then the US government (or whoever sets their pollution standards) would be required to change the pollution laws, or to compensate them for the extra cost, forever.
3. This could nullify our constitution because nearly every article could, conceivably, cause some company, somewhere, hardship, and could thus be negated by the WTO laws.
I could drone on forever with more examples of the terrible things that could happen if the WTO is allowed to have it's way, but that'll bore everybody. Instead, I'd like everybody to think about what happened near the end of the 1920's, ending the ramant inflation of stock values. The stock market crashed. Lots of people starved. Everybody lost their money. A few people became very wealthy (i.e. the ones who won out on the savings-and-loans scandal.), but not very many. In the end, we ended up instituting a series of worker protection laws, which have been chipped away at since then.
We shouldn't have to go through another depression before we fix the problem, this time. Some simple preventive measures, some of which could be having the WTO require a reasonable minimum wage, require strict environmental controls, and set some maximum working hours for workers. Others would be neccessary, of course, but that's a start.
See... this is where I think cops make more of a problem by being there than not.
Just like with the whole rodney king thing. The cops got there, they got all "official", and things got violent.
There is active, loud, NON VIOLENT protest and violent protest.
Anyone who has to deal with a cop is already on edge because of the situation. When a 300 cops walk out in riot gear, well... I'll let you connect the dots. Someone's going to crack, and anger, like laughter, is very contagious.
But then again, most cops that I've met in person seem to get a rise out of beating the shit out of someone, so it could have run either way.
We mustn't forget also that washington state is known for bending over backwards for any greenbacks that might be heading to that state. I remember seeing washington senators and representatives on TV that evening after MS got declared an agressive monopoly defending them.
In other words, it is VERY hard for me to see how in the hell this turned into a riot without someone on the other end pushing the protesters into it.
-Erik-
where I was, there was NO WARNING. There was a large group of drummers and dancers, a lot of people standing around, some singing, some chanting. Then suddenly there were flashbangs and tear gas. There was no warning at all. There was no one being violent either. There was a small fire burning off to the side of the intersection, but it had been going for a long time. People were just standing around when a large group of big bad cops along with an APC came at them, firing tear gas and flashbangs, shooting rubber bullets, and hitting with clubs anyone who got near them.
Sorry, after all that rambling I didn't make my point heh.
Unless the protestors were trespassing, the cops shouldn't have been there. They shouldn't have been "giving them the opportunity to disperse", because that was the exact opposite of what they were going to do.
-Erik-
They don't exactly have piles of money to run advertisements constantly, like say, most major corporations who run ads constantly on TV.
In fact this has probably been the first Adbuster related advertisement in a year or so. They'd run more if they had the money or go ahead to do so. Surprisingly some networks won't allow them to run their ads even if they have the money to do so.
And how are you supposed to reach everyday people when the sources of their information are a select few newspapers, magazines, and TV channels? Isolate yourself in the forest and hope they all come by your tent and ask you about political issues?
So, what position do you support? The non existent, non noticed one? Everything else is advertised in some manner...whether it's TV, pamphlets, protests, websites, whatever.
Though I don't agree, I can understand why some people are against WTO agreement. But why in Seattle?
I mean, U.S. is the only country who's winning the game (i.e., trade) right now, and Americans are supposed to be the one who have gained most from the agreement. Am I missing something?
If they are mad about loosing their jobs, and blaming WTO for that, they are tooo much off the point. Think how much wealth U.S. as a whole gained through the agreement...
I was merely trying to answer the question quickly, and I didn't run a spelling/grammar check. Yes, I do have trouble spelling, and no, I don't care what you think.
However, I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for adding so much to the discussion
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
if you'll notice, his original words were along the lines of "no WIDESPREAD looting". breaking into Starbucks, Radioshack, and some other electronic stores hardly counts as widespread.
No, you still mean colonization.
Funny, Greenland seems to grow just about everything in their greenhouses. A large greenhouse in Canada with perfect humidity and temperature and artificial lights might grow a great banana. Then they could be rippened on the tree and fresh picked before being taken to market just a hundred miles down the road. If you ever taste a tree ripened banana you will never be able to eat a bitter store bought green banana again. Same with pineapples. Because of the reduced shipping costs you can probably charge the same price and still make more money.
And who says that sugur cane is the best way to get sugar? There might be a plant that grows good in northern climates... the sugar beet that is nearly as good as sugar cane and could be improved though genetic manipulation.
Hops grow nearly everywhere.
People who work on sugar plantations don't make enough to buy imported food. What do you suggest they eat if all their land is being used for sugar production?
The only reason that companies are going to these other countries to build factories is that these other counties are small enough to be dominated by one or two companies. These other counties have no retirement, no benefits, no compensation for workplace injury, very low taxes, total control by the government of all media, no minimum wage, and no environmental laws.
What specialization does the third world have in producing a shoe that no one in that country can even afford to wear? Or in producing CD players in a country where almost no CD's are sold?
In point of fact, production always drops in factories taken to the third world. But this slave labor, working for as much in a day as an american makes in an hour is the telling point.
It is common to work twelve year olds eighteen hours a day, six days a week, till they are so crippled that they can no longer work. Then you fire them and hire their younger brother to waste his life in your company.
Look at how much money your company is saving!!!
Look where your soul is going to spend all of eternity!!! And even though our law doesn't apply to shareholders in a corperation, God doesn't accept any excuses. So "I didn't know that the companies that I invested in was exploiting people! Sob. Sniff." won't cut it with the Big Guy.
Japan has _no_ natural resources. It is totally inefficient for them to import raw materials from thousands of miles away, produce goods, and then ship those goods thousands of miles to market. Yet Japan seems to have done fairly well for themselves for all this non-specialization. And I don't see them changing there model anytime soon. With your argument all the people of Japan would be good for is growing turnips and fishing.
My point is:
People are the greatest resource that any country has. If we aren't doing our best to ensure that everyone in the world is living in a democracy under the protection of law then we have failed our founding fathers. Funny, they had better hopes for us than "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Money at any price*. (*Citizens of non-developed countries need not apply)"
only in Seattle would riotiers break into a Starbucks ;) a little teargas after work is a nice refresher as well. we closed 4 hours early though, so I won't complain. a cigarette cleared it right up.
The real problem with the WTO is that it gives away too much sovereignty. Here in California we're banning MTBE from gasoline because its somewhat water soluble, and may be a carcinogen. I've heard that there are oil companies in other countries trying to get the ban overturned in court because it violates the WTO guidelines.
If such a case were decided in favor of the oil co.'s, it would basicly mean that the US government has given away California's right to self govern, and the people would have to keep drinking MTBE contaminated water no matter what they thought of the issue.
That's the sort of thing they're protesting against. More power to them! I wish I could go to Seattle and join them.
very very good CS
The same way that England, Spain, Portugal, and France allowed the export of raw materials to its colonies and the import of finished goods?
One type of product per country while carefully ensuring that the individual colonies will not be able to stand on their own even if they do revolt?
The kind of colonial system that still cripples much of Central and South America and much of Africa?
Is this the kind of _specialization_ that you mean?
I hate you Orwellian double speak people. If you support colonization they by all means say so, but don't try to hide it behind _pretty_ words.
No, stay away. They smell funny.
The events in seattle are not a result of the WTO conference (of which they have been heavily recruiting volunteers for in area high schools. I'm glad I didn't volunteer.), but the hype generated by the massive preparation the city has been undertaking for the past several months in order to get ready for the protests. It attracted all of those people that thought setting bon fires and beating up delegates (Which did happen, to those hapless enough to try to use the front entrance)would be great fun. Shortly after the protests began, the protestors quickly factionalized. Conflict began between the groups, as those who had coordinated their protests with the city attempted to stop those that were firebombing dumpsters and rolling boulders down hills at lines of police for fear of being tear gassed. Things began to degrade at around 10:00 AM Pacific, when the police donned their riot gear and began loading their hot-pink shotguns. Wacky and entertaining protestor vs. police hijinks ensued. I saw a man in a sea turtle costume (bearing the placard: Save the sea turtles. Go fig, at a trade conference?) beating the hell out of another man who was unlucky enough to rouse the beast's ire. Many of the protestors had unusual costumes on, probably to attract the attention of television cameras. The overall effect was that of a demented mardi gras, but with more tear gas. On a side note, I found out that CS gas smells like horribly rotten mustard and doesn't "hit" you until several seconds after exposure. The tear gas attacks were mostly ineffectual, as many protestors (Rioters at this point) had gas masks, and were lobbing the cannisters back into the police lines. After several hours of this, the crowd shifted into 'Arson mode' and began stripping Seattle's beautiful downtown pedestrian areas of anything flammable and setting massive blazes. As the curfew approached, only the hard-core bands of rioters remained behind to taunt the advancing riot squads. Oh, and somebody set off some sort of explosion during this phase of the .. party.. and that seemed to /really/ piss the police off. As for the conference itself, it was delayed by several hours and the attendees were generally annoyed. Personally, I would've sent in the fire department to quell the riot. I would have volunteered on the spot if one of the availible positions was to work the hoses. At any rate, this wasn't about the WTO. It was a gigantic , really destructive, block party. The pleasure we take in being part of the group, acting with violent purpose towards a goal with no eye towards its morality will ensure that we are supplied with a never-ending fountain of such spectacles well into the new millenium. The police felt it, and they did take part, with their lobbing of tear gas and engagement with the protestors. Even I felt it, far removed as I was from the chaos. I thrilled at the prospect of taking part-- a primal need to put myself in the center of it, setting fires and engaging in wholesale mindless destruction with my.. as the mob, the distinction of self vanishes. Something in ourselves makes us manic for the chaotic energy we find when we swarm. Philotes, herd instinct, whatever you please. It exists. This is what Y2K will be like, but everywhere.
These people (can we call them that?) are freaks. There are other, more appropriate forums and methods of expressing concerns than blocking up a city and starting riots.
:)
From a discussion in #slashdot on slashnet, I have the feeling that I'm in the minority on the following opinion, but I'd like to air it anyway.
The protestors in Seattle have a right to make themselves heard. They do NOT have a right to commit acts of violence against ordinary people doing ordinary business, or against the police, who are charged with maintaining law and order. In small groups, what is going on in Seattle is called "disorderly conduct." In larger groups, it's a riot. They may claim that it's nonviolent, but the results speak for themselves.
I'm not against freedom of expression (lest the flamers take me to task), and I have a healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to government actions, but in this case the police were completely within their rights. Protestors in Seattle claimed that they were not given warning before the police opened up with teargas and rubber bullets. Well and good. It may even be true. But this arguement is symptomatic of the disgustingly prevalent attitude in our society of personal irresponsibility. "It isn't our fault!" they chant.
Actually, it is. By blocking streets, smashing windows, and hassling trade delegates, these rioters knowingly put themselves in a position where the police would have to act. Just because they were not forewarned by the police does not remove their personal responsibility. Furthermore, the results of their actions (e.g., the police response) are obvious to anyone who considers the consequences of their actions. If these individuals failed to think through their actions to the end result, that's just too bad.
I have no sympathy for these (cough) people. They brought it on themselves, and they deserve everything they got. They're lucky they weren't attacked by the motorists trying to commute to work or the pedestrians going about normal business. Given the recent epidemic of murderous motorists, one would think that people would be hesitant to induce "road rage" in commuters. Given recent accounts of police brutality (in NYC, for example), it would make some sense to not be in the area where a protest might happen--especially as a participant.
Arrest the rioters. Pelt them with rubber bullets. Gas them. If they still don't get the message that their conduct is inexcusable, then maybe they need to be weeded from the gene pool because they're too stupid to be allowed to reproduce
Their are peaceful ways of resolving differences of opinion, even with the WTO. The most commonly accepted form is greasing a politician. Call it campaign finance. Call it graft. Call it whatever you like. You can buy a politician. And it is perfectly peaceful. Lining up in the street causing traffic jams and civil unrest is not peaceful, no matter what platitudes the protestors spew.
Who am I?
Why am here?
Where is the chocolate?
What is your Slash Rating?
Anyone who has taken even an introductory class in Economics knows that free trade is the best way to economic growth and economic growth benefits everyone. Any kind of tariffs artificially raise prices. The extra money you now have to spend on a the tariffed good is money that can not now be spent on something else (called deadweight loss). This means less economic activity and fewer jobs for the people who are protesting. Ironic, isn't it? And this whole notion of jobs going to third world countries is bunkum. A simple accounting identity makes it near impossible; Net Exports == Net Foreign Investment. There's a fabulous piece written by an economist that does a good job of explaining in more detail why it's impossible (it was in response to Ross perot and his NAFTA opposition). I can't seem to find the url but if I find it i'll post it in this thread.
Dumbshit. You big dumbshit.
This, to me, seems like a great international blunder. Delegates from other countries are trapped, or even being attacked by protesters, and the conference can't go on. Clinton should be apologizing, and trying to restore order as quickly as possible. Instead, he's sympathizing with the protestors and saying their voices must be heard. What is he trying to do, anger the world? Make it seem like our citizens are free to be disruptive, riot, and block an international conference?
...thanks.
Here are some pics of the worst of it:
http://home.rochester.rr.com/crayz/wto/
Here's a good web cam(looks like someone came through with an ugly stick):
http://209.20.207.37/index.html
This one is dark right now, but it may have good images in the morning:
http://www.spaceneedle.com/view/livecam.asp
Anyway, lets get some other pics/web cams posted here.
Nonononono
This would be the absolute worst thing the protesters could have done. If the protesters had surrounded the riot cops on all sides, the police officers would have considered their own lives to be at risk. You know what would have happened at that point? The real guns would have come out and we'd have had some dead protesters on our hands. Look it up, it's one of the few situations where law enforcement agents are considered to be justified in opening fire on large crowds of people (it's legally self-defense).
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
The WTO uses economic blackmail (if your country doesn't play along, you specifically are screwed) to induce megacorps to pressure governments to ignore their constituents' demands for safety (such as avoiding gengineered beef) and fairness (there's no reasonable way for normal citizen workers to compete with child and other slave labor).
So in this particular case (can't say anything 'bout any others), the WTO is working for the people living in Europe, for the US meat producers, and against the European governments.
Cheers //Johan
Installed the Bubblemon yet?
Isn't it interesting how he always scores exactly two?
Does he have three logins? One to post and two to moderate his score upwards?
Hey, super meta moderators, check this guy out and see if the posts and the moderation is coming from the same place...
The WTO has no real power. If tit has a problem with one of our laws, and cites us, all we have to do is ether withdraw from the WTO, or ignore it. (Certainly, the United States is not a nation known for following treaties). Without the US, the WTO looses much of its luster, and persuasive power. It's unlikely that it would do anything to upset us.
Other countries may have trouble staying in the WTO if they just ignore it, But ultimately, the WTO has NO power whatsoever. They have no military, and while they're capable of passing laws, no one is under any obligation to follow them.
Members of the United States are bound by the Its constitution (No one ever thinks of the US as having members, but the states were originally independent countries... sort of). Secession is illegal, and the US has a military force to back it up. The WTO has no such capability
The fact that the stock market was good both in the 1920s and today dosn't really mean anything, and has nothing to do with the WTO.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Why is this on Slashdot?
Just wondering...
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
All 50,000+ people out there are busy looting and making asses of themselves? You know damn well that the media is picking and choosing which footage they want to air...and what would you pick if you were in their shoes? A bunch of people sincerely trying to inhibit what they believe to be a bad thing, or some dumbass kids out trying to be noticed by the tv cameras so they can say they've been on tv? The news channels are out to keep people watching so that they can shove their sponsors' advertising down the viewers' throats when the action dies down a little bit. I think that for a sizeable majority of the protesters, the reason they're there is to block something they think is wrong. More power to them; for the idiots out there that are turning this into an angry riot, knock it the hell off and let the people who really care do what they came to do.
Save the children; quit overparenting!
They wouldn't use M$ products, now would they?
There are "economists" on various positions concerning these types of things. It isn't exactly an observable science. It's probably more difficult to find the "true" route, the "right" answer than say finding out unobservable elements in physics.
And...most importantly...MOST OF THE PEOPLE THERE ARE NOT AGAINST FREE/INTERNATIONAL TRADE! They're opposing the WTO, which in it's utopian promises of a perfect world of free trade ends up over riding state and national laws because they are seen as hinderances to free/fair trade by corporations and/or governments. This is where they cross the line and why so many people are upset.
The labor activists have similar problems as well as others that they feel the WTO has put upon them.
It's AOK too, you dumb fuck.
the WTO is a vile organization, it puts people second, and has a history of enviormental damage to make money. its sick, and must be stopped, I support the protestors, in this age of American Apathy, I am suprised, and pleased to see people acting against the WTO. I hope they return in the morning.
PROTECT AND SERVE - THAT IS THE POLICE'S JOB!
Man, I cannot tell you how much it angers me to hear such STUPIDITY AND IGNORANCE on this forum.
No cop takes the oath "to deprive and destroy".
-Erik-
If you read MSNBC's articles on the subject, they mentioned a protestor who was arrested by the police. The protestor, upon being interviewed, admitted to the fact that he did not have a particular agenda against the WTO. Ah, the committed ideals of the civilly disobdeient masses are amazing aren't they?
A friend of mine particpated in a Martin Luther King rally that ocurred in Denver a few years back. The KKK, being the fun loving happy go lucky kind of white supremacists they are, thought it would be a lovely idea to stage a rally of their own at the state capital. She was with a large group of people who were very into civil rights, and wanted to show their respect for MLK with a peaceful march through downtown. At the capital, they discovered that another group, completely unrelated to theirs had shown up with only one intention, beating the ever loving crap out of the KKK. Now, if there is any organization that deserves such a reception it is the KKK, but the end result was a riot that far overshadowed anything good that happened that day.
So, for those in the audience who just enjoy stirring things up and being violent, would you take up knitting or something rather than screwing up the political message of the few people in this country who are willing to go out of their way to make a political point.
*As sterno steps down from his soap box the crowd goes wild*
---
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
This is my first post. Thanks!
I'd like to thank you as well for your unintuitive crack at the protesters, of which you haven't a clue as to what they're protesting about.
Why do protests that start out as having a valid ... end up by rioting, trashing stores, burning cars and whatever else people can think up?
:)
Beacuse its fun
Rioter #1: Whoa! Hey, man! Why are you here? Is it 'cause you really hate the WTO? You wanna stop them from the atrocities they are committing?
Rioter #2: Nah, I'm just gearing up for Y2K. It's gonna be a HOOT! *Uh!*
Rioter #1 falls with a broken nose and back and is trampled by the unknowing crowd.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
there is a huge difference between being out there in the protest and being above it in your conference room. I was out there in it. Everyone around me was very much aware of the issues. I spent about 2 hours sitting in the front lines facing a wall of police. While sitting there we all talked about the WTO, corporate domination of governments, etc. Many people with different views had a chance to discuss things peacefully, we even tried talking with the police but they wouldn't look anyone in the eye and refused to talk to us. The vast majority of people there were there because of their political beliefs, not because they wanted to fuck some shit up. The police provoked the riot. I agree they did show restraint, they could of used real bullets or clubbed more people, instead they used chemical weapons and rubber bullets. They attacked protesters, forced them back a block, then set up their line again and held it for awhile, then repeated driving us down several blocks away from downtown. Things could of been much much worse had the protesters actually been violent rather than provoked to violence by the police's action.
Don't get me wrong: I do not like violence, and I don't think rioting is a good solution to problems in general. However, you have to realize that there is a fine line between civil disobedience and rioting. That line is crossed when the police start making arrests and either they or the protestors become violent. At that point, all Hell breaks loose (see my above posting) and a lot of people may get hurt before things settle down. Most will just be caught in the crossfire and won't have done anything violent themselves. There will be plenty of screaming and running around, and the TV cameras will focus on the violent police and protestors, giving the impression of a totally violent conflict when in fact there is relatively little violence.
What I am saying is that acts of civil disobedience often turn into full-blown riots or apparent riots, and realistic protestors expect this result. Some use it as a publicity tool, either by fighting the cops or by passively taking beatings. It's often effective, and I think that, in this case, the impression of importance will really hit home when people see the videos of gas bombs flying, trash cans burning, huge masses running scared in the dark, and--inevitably--armored riot police beating unarmed protestors with sticks.
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
Saw on BBC World yesterday some of the protestors were interviewed, and said something like "the new WTO deals will move jobs from the U.S. to third-world countries". Get this: the U.S. has 200 people working full time with WTO issues and lobbying to make sure the U.S.' interests are at best. As an example, Uganda has 1/2 person working on this. I don't think the U.S. citizens have much to be angry about.
-
sig sig sputnik
Hypocrites.
----
Morning gray ignites a twisted mass of foreign shapes and sounds
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
Excellent, just think, by the time we're soiling our Depends (TM) undergarments, this will be the revisionist's "The populous, fearing the coming millenium, reacted instinctively, without the good judgement 2,000,000 years of evolution had brought them to thus far."
Read my plan to save the Bengals
it's a little of both. I have tape recordings of people attacking police and also police, out of nowhere pushing people, standing on cars and tanks picking out people in the crowd and firing at them with rubber bullets, spraying pepper spray on a bunch of people sitting on the ground, firing pepper gas canistors in all sorts of directions with little concern for the protesters safety.
And as the night wore on, more idiots came out of their caves and saw it as an oppurtunity to committ senseless acts of destruction and steal. These people were even worse than those committing destruction with political intentions. Oh well. What can you expect with so many people?
That's freedom to *peaceably* assemble.
Without blocking anybody else.
Without attacking people.
Without vandalizing.
Basically, without breaking the law.
Look at the KKK for instance; whenever they assemble, they're careful to a) be not particularly numerous (which is easy, given their minimal appeal among the clued), and b) limit their confrontation to shouting. It's part of their current image, where they're clued enough to let the anti-Klan protesters be the ones to first be unruly and discredit themselves.
Being in a public park, holding up signs, and not interfering with anybody is fine, 'tho you may have to get a permit or reservation. Invite some reporters; hand out press releases; write letters to the editor; call your Congressmen.
Deal.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
It also alows the poor to get richer. If those 'rich bastards' didn't setup shop in the 3rd
Well, the rich bastards choose countries where labor unions are illegal, where there are no laws for environment protections. Often these are countries with dictators and/or cleptocracies.
For the company, it's great: no protests; no restrictions on abusing workers and the environment.
People in those countries don't really profit from the new 'jobs' created; the new factories are built on land that was used to produce food. So people have to buy the food from abroad that is generally much more expensive.
Plus, the (lower) taxes and/or bribe money helps the oppressive governments to keep the power for themselves. If you read about human rights frequently (and no, that's not a left-wing issue), you'll notice that *very often* people are abused for protesting against inhumane work conditions or environment misuse or just for being organized in illegal or even legal workers unions.
Computers. You can't live with them, you can't live without them.
So yeah, I was aware of your point, but it wasn't what I was getting at. I'm not sure it's even possible to have a purely social or capital based large country, just as it isn't possible to have a purely democratic country -- you need buffers in the form of representatives and governing organizations and such. Rather than having people on the left and right bickering over being on the left and right, what we need to do is acknowledge that the liberals and conservatives are both wrong, but that they also both have a grain of truth that needs to be teased out of them. That grain, like the sand in the oyster's jaw, can maybe be used to create the perl[1] of a new economic model, one that is fair to all while enrichening as many as possible and by as much as possible. Only then can we make true progress. Not by kowtowing before international trading organizations like this, that have every intention of trampling over the rights of man and the earth. And also not by binding people and prohibiting them from earning a fair compensation for their workmanship. A third way[2], a middle way. It's out there somewhere; perhaps someone in our generation will find it. I hope so.
[1] heh sorry couldn't resist that one
[2] Isn't this what Clinton & Blair have been preaching these days? I don't want to follow their model either -- they just beat me to the term. Keep trying...
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
How many police do you think really want to be attacked by demonstrators? How many police want to see you treat someone who was causing them trouble? Maybe the cop in question was feeling a little vengeful after having to put up with a day full of hotheaded fools? Hmmm? There are other points of view....
Who am I?
Why am here?
Where is the chocolate?
What is your Slash Rating?
At least some years ago, rubber bullets tended to be rubber-COATED bullets. There were incidents during the Intifada of Palestinian (sp?) protestors dying after being shot with them...
...but over there, the "civillians" were frequently armed.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Ok, I admit I'm a bit slow on the whole WTO thing. To be quite honest, I didn't even know it was being held in Seattle. Gimme a break, I just got laid off last week. I got other things on my mind.
Anyway, my biggest concern, given my admittedly shallow perception of things, is what's the point of looting stores? I was just at the CNN site and they had a picture of a guy breaking into Starbucks. WTF?
Seems a bit like the LA riots (which I was here for)after the Rodney King verdict. It was about Rodney King for about, oh, 15 minutes. Then it was about a brand new 27" TV!!
Why do protests that start out as having a valid point (again, I'm not up to speed yet) end up by rioting, trashing stores, burning cars and whatever else people can think up?
Everyone has their own opinion, yeah, but I'm surprised at some of the responses in the Slashdot community. Sure, when I saw the protestors preparing on the news here in London I sorta mumbled to myself, "Yeah... THEY'RE going to save the world, sure..." - but the really interesting thing is that it's not just bong addled hippies out there. It's retired firemen and nuns and Union workers. That is how important this issue is - because anyone who has lived in WA state, where I grew up, and hasn't gotten filty rich on MS stock options knows that free trade has been disastrous to our economy and environment. The Salmon runs are nearly dead, hundreds of thousands of jobs were lost in that industry. Loggers were hired by big corporations to strip clear trees from the state that were sold to Japan, then fired once they were all gone (and don't get me started on how they bought public land - PARK LANDS - to get even more timber). Then there's Microsoft. The brief history of this state is our future history praying at the altar of free trade. These were issues that affected blue collar working class people and their ability to support their families - not smelly assed crusties playing bongos worrying about the new batch of Humboldt bud.
The WTO means that hormone injected beef that has been proven to cause cancer cannot be restricted from being sold in a country whose people don't want it. This means that controls on GM food and labelling cannot occur despite a populace agreeing on such an issue. This means Monsanto can sell their self destructing seed no matter what the farmers think. It means a company who makes an enormous profit from one country doesn't have to put one cent back into taxes to that country or jobs or local interest. Basically - it's Microsoft vs. Linux, except it's not the OS you run, it's the food you eat, the air you breathe, the animals in the sea, your local populace's employment rates, the ability of a large corporation to strip mine all the resources in an economy and not put anything back into that economy - rather keep it for themselves - which is the real damage of free trade.
Maybe I'm emotional, because I'm here in London and it's only through webcams and message boards and TV coverage that I can get a sense of what's going on back home, and worry about friends and family, some of whom I know are protesting, while others are worried about getting to work on time, and one or two police officers. Undoubtedly there is a small minority causing trouble. But what I see is a diverse crowd of unarmed people with interests devoted to having a say in the shape of the world versus the latest kevlar protection and non lethal weaponry - against the sheltered protection of large corporations. It's Terry Gilliam's Brazil. For the first time in my life I have empathy with the older generation who protested in the 60s and understand why they were so reactionary. If you're going to consider this issue as non sequitir and having no importance to nerds, then please, like a true nerd educate yourself first and consider what's at stake.
** http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/ ** Human rights in North Korea. 1 million estimated dead from starvation.
>It's AOK too, you dumb fuck.
People usually start picking on spelling when they have no real arguement and very frustrated by what a previous post has said mainly because the original post is so truthful. So why don't you go buy a dictionary and come with some constructive criticism rather than "dumb fuck".
Of course they will. But you'll get the chance to hear more than just a few selected sound bites that the corporate lackeys allow you to hear. Look at it like this, if you want to really learn about, say, "hackers", would you go read some story at CNN, or would you go somewhere like say, hackernews.com?
I was downtown for a few hours today. I was not able to go to work because they stopped the buses on 3rd so no way to get there.
Having discovered that (just shortly after noon) I went in search of a payphone to call my boss and let him know what was going on.
Anyone that lives in Seattle can tell you that finding a payphone in downtown can be a bit of a challenge at the best of times. Today it was worse than usual as many of the stores were closed already.
I finally found an open Red Robin and went inside to use the payphone. The guy just inside the door said "no - that's for paying guests only..." I asked to speak to the manager - she said the same thing - but she finally relented (with ill grace) and allowed me to use the phone to call my boss. When I'd finished she - again - made a point to tell me that the payphone was supposed to be "for paying guests only"
You want to know WHY you have people protesting in the streets about the WTO? THAT is why! That attitude that even something as simple as using a "public payphone" in a restaurant to call your boss because the "powers that be" have decided to shut down the buses that you rely on for transportation is something that must be "bought and paid for" by the purchase of a meal in the restaurant. Sick. Truly sick.
As for the "riot" I was downtown for several hours and saw nothing that could even be REMOTELY considered a "riot" by ANY stretch of the imagination. To call the reports of the "mainsteam media" grossly over-blown would be an understatement.
Yes. There was looting of a Starbucks. Last night they spray-painted a Micky D's - I'm not sure if the windows were broken on that or not but when I came by last night (about 9 p.m. on my way home from work) I didn't see any broken windows there. This afternoon the McD's had plywood on the windows. And a fresh paintjob to cover the graffitti. Who knows.
All in all I have to say that this is about as far from a "riot" as it's possible to get. The media is doing nothing more - and nothing less - then trying to sell air-time, newspapers, whatever because you sure can't tell ME that a "riot" took place.
L.A. after the Rodney King verdict with the city in flames now THAT was a "riot" and no mistake about it. This? Yeah, sure.
What nobody seems to want to think about is that the police - I saw this on TV earlier this evening after getting home - were using teargas on protestors that were NOT doing anything other than standing still. They weren't throwing anything. They weren't burning anything.
In fact, the only things that have been burned so far that I know of for sure are a couple of wooden saw-horse type traffic barriers and some of their own signs. Hardly the stuff of "riots" is it?
They were - however - in the "exclusion zone" that the police had decided on. It was after 7PM and so the protestors were "in violation" of a police-imposed "curfew" which is the excuse the police used to bring out the teargas and pepper spray.
Can anyone spell "martial law??" Since when does a 7PM "curfew" for "protesting" become an "acceptable" part of the social fabric of the United States? Damned if I didn't flat out just MISS that one!
Make no mistake here - they said - quite clearly - that if you "had legitimate business downtown" that the "curfew would not apply." It is "for protesters only." Of course, you know who gets to decide if you have "legitimate business" downtown don't you? The police of course. All they need now are the swastikas and stiff-arm salute.
There were a FEW - and I mean a VERY few - protesters that came to Seattle with the intent to do "damage" from the outset. That's to be expected at a gathering of this many people I would suppose.
To give you some perspective on what I mean I heard this afternoon from a lady with a sign that she'd seen - yesterday - about 30 people all dressed in black and with 2x4's with nails looking to break stuff up. 30 people.
How many *tens of thousands* of people came here to Seattle? The AFL-CIO march this afternoon probably had at least a couple hundred TIMES the number of "protesters" that had the 2x4's and looking to break stuff up. Who gets remembered? The 30 people.
The vast majority of the protesters however are here to express their opinions that the WTO sucks. They brought their signs. They brought their bullhorns. They didn't loot anything.
What are people going to remember? The looted Starbucks. The picture of the "bonfire" (made up of their own signs for the most part) in the middle of the street that is blazed across TV and newspapers to give the impression that there is a hell of a LOT of stuff like that going on.
Nothing could be further from the truth. There IS NO RIOT in Seattle! At least not tonight.
Tomorrow when the 2 companies of National Guard show up though that may be a whole different story. That, in and of itself, is an action that is completely UNCALLED for based on what I have seen with my own two eyes today.
Personally I think the WTO sucks. That is my right to have that opinion.
But what sucks even worse is the way that the police are going out of their way to ride roughshod over the rights of peaceful protesters - and having it be "egged on" by the "media" since they are presenting this whole situation as a "riot" and thereby giving the police - in the mind of the public that doesn't know any better - the "right" to use "whatever force is necessary" to "quell the riot" - the riot that doesn't even exist!
Don't be "sheep." Think for yourselves. I assume that shouldn't be too much of a chore for those that will read these words given where it's being posted.
I'll be back downtown tomorrow. I have to try and make it to work again. This time though I'm packing a lunch and taking some water.
If the buses aren't running again - highly likely given the state of completely idiotic "paranoia" running unchecked among the authorities - I'll be joining in to add my voice to the calls for justice - economic or otherwise - that brought the protestors to Seattle with their signs.
You might be sitting there thinking that this "doesn't concern me." I hate to break this to you but it surely does.
Why? Because if the police can ride roughshod over "rioters" in Seattle today you can know for a certainty that it's going to be even easier to do it the next time someplace else. With Seattle to point to as an example of how "badly" the "right to protest" can be "mis-used."
So, they will "eliminate" that "problem" (or "potential problem") by "eliminating" the "right to protest" and then you don't have to worry your little head about such weighty issues anymore.
So think about it. Do you DO something? Or go back to MTV?? It's up to you. At least for today it's still up to you.
What should you do? I'd not presume to tell you. If nothing else it would be nice if people could be told the TRUTH about what is going on instead of just believing the incredibly "slanted" coverage being presented by the "mainsteam media" about the situation here in Seattle.
There is NO RIOT in Seattle! Not yet. That doesn't mean that one can't start but it hasn't happened yet.
What have you done to make the world a better place today? Got 30 seconds? Feed somebody. http://www.thehungersite.co
Okay first things I was in downtown Seattle were all of the demonstrations occurred. The news media (even local) is focusing on some rather limited acts of vandalism the have happened over the course of the day. A group of "anarchists", which were in reality about 15 nineteen year old kids dressed in black broke some windows and spray painted all kinds of things. I think it is important to understand that the action of these 15 or so kids is what you are hearing about in the news, and doesn't represent the actions of many thousands of protesters you demonstrated peacefully. As far as the police, they were very patient for the most part and did use tear gas and rubber bullets. For whatever reason they are denying the use of the rubber bullets but they were used at a couple of occasions during the day. While I wasn't there to protest the WTO directly I can't say that I agree with the closed door nature of there meetings, or many of their decisions (gene patents anyone?). PS In reply to an earlier post the CSE department at UW is quite good, but it is small and VERY difficult to be accepted to.
I only post twice a year, who needs a sig?
Preach on brother... all those hippie's should just shut up, give me my dirt cheap products... who cares if the average live exptancy of the people who made them is below 30 due to working conditionts, they aint no family of mine. As for the fact they throw large amounts of toxic waste into the environment while doing it... well its their environment :) As long as they dont live near me who cares.
I've been noticing the same thing. Everyone I know on both sides of the poltical spectrum is very upset with how the world is becoming. Corporate rule seems to be the #1 gripe everyone has. Democracy has been stolen. The politcal apathy which seemed to grip our country is finally coming to an end because of this. 2000 is going to be an interesting year.
It's time that we all realized that
1. The world is controled by business
2. No matter how much you bitch, cry, complain, or smash things nothing can be done about it.
3. The only reasonable thing to do is dig in and get as much for yourself as you can
"Reality is less than television."-Brian Oblivion
there is still some soul left in this country. I certainly don't agree with any of the violence, but I think its nice to see that people can unite for a common cause. Look at how the FBI has been recently harrasing people for expressing their views about crypto or for displaying 'inappropriate' web content. It's time to let the stuffed shirts in government know that 'the people' are unhappy about the way things are progressing. Sometimes the only way to do that is to scream it from the rooftops.
I didn't say world trade wasn't an important issue, but certanly, you wouldn't say that it is over one thousand times as important as things like the CDA? would you?
The reason this has been so effective is beacuse thousands upon thousands of people who have been unable to think for them selves marched down to seattle, and tried (sucsesfully) to stop the WTO from meeting.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Umm, unless you're suggesting that police equipment include different sets of armor in a variety of HappyFunFun(TM) colors, black is your *best* choice.
Think: camouflage for darkness, such as assaulting a building that's currently without power because they [the police] have already disconnected it. In this situation, a perp will just treat your nice little smiley face on your shining white armor as... a nice highly visible target.
I doubt they've the budget for "practical" AND "kindler, gentler" gear *color schemes*.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
--
*CS* tear gas?
You're not referring to the pyrotechic military-grade tear gas, are you?
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
But if the people of Washington, Oregon, or California use their referendum powers to pass a law that has some effect on international trade, and the appropriate WTO tribunal decides that it violates the USA's treaty obligations under the WTO, then the law will be struck down.
send all spam to theotherwhitemeat@ropine.com
I'm not writing this to bash the US - just to record my observations - I don't understand why this happens maybe it's because public protest happens so seldomly that when it does there's a lot of other anger/outrage that finds its way out. Then again maybe it's just because the cops and demonstators aren't allowed to carry guns at home and this means there's not the same fear on both sides that can escalate into madness.
On the other hand I've seen cops in the US over-react in ways that were both childish and dangerous - many of them definitely come to a demonstration with an attitude that is more harmfull than helpfull - again it's not the majority, they are professional and non-confontational - but there always seem to be a few that seem to be itching for trouble (which to me always seems like a really bad idea if you want to survive as a cop).
I'm actually in favor of MORE public protest - if the polititians piss you off - don't wait for the next election - peacefully take to the street - you're up against a world where those with the bucks get heard - there aren't a lot of other venues for getting your point across. Things like the M$ refund day protests are wonderfull examples of what we should be doing every day
Violence at protests is usally caused by imposters, hired by the target of the protest. Just a simple fact of life. Then the mainstream media, which is always in bed with folks like the WTO, focuses on the sporadic violence in order to drown out the message of the protest. Within a week, all that is remembered is that a few unemployed hippies smashed some windows and attacked police. The WTO wants to fuck up labour laws, patent laws, human rights laws, soveriegnty, you name it.. in favour of the rich. Geeks should be quite upset about WTO views, especially on patents, which are just about the biggest threat possible to free software. Governments have very effective methods of negating protests. Protests are damned near useless, with the MM (mainstream media) consistently painting the protesters as bad guys. In the long run the way to take power away from corporations is to stop being such fucking consumers.
before anyone points the finger at the protesters for starting the riot, remember Dr. Kings protest in 68 which was undermined by FBI agents posing as protesters. there may be other forces at work here trying to discredit and disrupt the protest.
im not saying that the protesters are innocent, but they may have been provoked/tricked into violence. not to mention the fact that when police start intervening thngs tend to get ugly.
"The importance of using technology in the right way has never been more clear."
Ruber bullets are lethal, if the cops had really been using them, there would be thousands of dead people.
The police were using rubber slugs fired out of paintball guns.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Actually, there are a number of "someones" in the last several generations who have preached a "third way." IIRC, the very term "third way" came from the Distributist movement in England (Chesterton and Belloc) before Blair and Clinton co-opted it to mean economic globalization that's not too commie and not too laissez-faire. :^(
The trouble is, it's tough getting any discussion that involves any nuance, historical perspective, or more than two sides through the media. (Which explains why sports events work so well on TV but serious discussions of real issues don't.)
So, for anyone who really wants to look at a "third way," you could start by trying a google search for Distributism, or at the Chesterton Society page and folling the links. Distributism is an economoic system promoted by G. K. Chesterton and Hillaire Belloc in England at the beginning of the century, which favors widespread private ownership of property and capital, vs. the concentration of property in private (capitalist) or state (socialist) systems. The Outline of Sanity is probably the best introduction to Chestertonian Distributism, although it seems to be only available in dead trees edition, so you'll have to check a paper library or bookstore.
Besides the English Distributists, there's a whole wing of American "agrarian" writers who advocate pretty much the same thing. My favorite is Wendell Berry. Berry is a champion of local enterprise and ecological sensitivity, and is a great antidote to WTO globalism.
For a great big collection of alternatives to McWorld, try The Case Against the Global Economy : And for a Turn Toward the Local . It includes pieces by Jerry Mander, Jeremy Rifkin, Wendell Berry, Ralph Nader, Helena Norberg-Hodge, and many others, including much discussion of NAFTA, GATT, and the WTO.
Summary: It's not that nobody has thought of a "third way." The problem is not lack of imagination for envisioning alternatives to the global rat-race. If you truly want an alternative, start making it happen!
Its amazing reading the commentary here on slashdot and watching the media in australia. people on here saying that there were only a few people causing trouble, a few incidences of violence and yet, here, everysingle shot of the "protest" is of violence, the protestors are called "Anarchists", shots of the lone black cloaked policeman FBI dude whatever shooting what theyre calling pepper bullets? into the crowd, shots of people smashing windows, tied in with the dumpsters being pushed onto the road, white gas covering the streets, the over turned car set alight, repeating the word "anarchists" at least 15 times during the story, never once calling them protestors, never once saying most of the crowd was behaved, the only smidgen of sanity shown was the last 5 seconds of the story where if you looked closly you can see people holding candles/lighters in the air standing still, that is until "the riot police, armed with batons" moved in to break up the "anarchists", when clearly the people in the screen were NOT anarchists but people standing holding a flame.
Feedback of this sort is an essential part of our socio-political system, because there is no other mechanism available by which the actions of political and economic institutions can be controlled in a democratic way.
So-called representative democracy is nothing of the sort, because there is no opportunity to influence individual issues through the election sledgehammer, and in any event only candidates that follow the approved line get the funding that's needed to get anywhere in politics these days. In any case, one day of democracy every five years is a joke.
In the absence of any official feedback mechanism, people have to protest to get their points across, and in this media-led world, a peaceful protest just doesn't get on the news. At the very least it's got to create a disturbance or nuisance of some variety to be reported.
Well, so be it. If the politicians in their comfy rose-tinted world don't provide any better way for the populace to express itself and to get things changed by due process, then people will take to the streets. It's that simple.
I bet that they never get the message though. That would require a clue. Nah, far easier just to send out the riot police to control it.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
It really is too bad ...they always miss the target. Shop windows are broken, cars are burned, people are injured, public infrastructures are damaged and guess who suffers from it ?
;-)
Your wife, that worked in that shop.
Your neighbour, who bought his car last week.
Your friends, some of them being protesters, others being policemen, and so on...
All of you, struggling to pay the taxes supposed to be used to build these public infrastructures.
But, believe me, these fat buck-eaters won't even sleep bad tonight. Their big Mercedes is still parked in their huge property in front of their obscenely expensive house. Meanwhile, people who worked 40 years in mines are starving with their families, in supposedly "civilized" countries. They were fired a year ago, to accomodate some investors wanting to increase their "earning per share" by buying from countries where unpaid prisoners (should we say slaves, or isn't it politicaly correct ?) are forced to dig 14 hours a day.
Violence isn't the problem. You can't win a war by sitting on the floor, waiting for the next rubber bullet or gas can to hit your head. The Tibetans know it.
Don't let them rise ourseleves against each others. Again, don't miss the target : Burn their somptuous villas, take their Mercedes, build on their land, if you really want them to care about you... or shut up and go back to work.
Sorry for the poor english
...don't flame others for their grammar. Not everyone who posts here comes from an English-speaking country and received good schooling in grammar. It's the message that's important.
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
You call 16 cents an hour to make $150 tennis shoes "richer"?
-Erik-
I have no concrete evidence, but my guess is that those who repeat the line here that the WTO is Good Thing and then complain about the violence of the demonstrators are the same people who so avidly supported the various military actions the US has taken in recent years. The ruling classes of this world will resort to hideous levels of violence to maintain their wealth and privelege, and then piously condemn the 'violence' of a few stick throwers. From here in Europe (where there are also protests against the WTO) these demonstrations are inspirational. People don't get turned away from a cause that is right because of scenes of protestors battling with the police. In fact, wherever there are large scale protests, whether it's Seoul or Seattle or London or Jakarta, there are always police with tear gas and sticks and rubber bullets, and people with the courage to fight back. The demonstrators were chanting "The whole world is watching". Well, we are, and it's great to see!
Say what you will about the government, but at least in theory it exists to serve the common good. Corporations don't even pay lip service to that ideal -- they just want to maximize their bottom line for themselves and for their shareholders. Nowhere does it say that they have to do the rest of the world a shred of good, and if they absolutely don't have to, they won't. Take a look at the campaign to revoke Phillip Morris' corporate charter, and while you're at it, poke around the rest of the Adbusters site.
I'm also sympathetic with the laissez faire Libertarians who point out that government can't step in and tell the corporations what to do or who to serve. That is rightly their own business to manage. But at the same time, a government that allows one group to exploit the rest of the population is bankrupt and needs an overhaul. Revolution lies down that path.
What is a good middle ground? I don't know -- no one has come up with it yet. Socialism atrophied and went nowhere; capitalism has become a festering tumor that is strangling the people and the planet. There has to be some happy medium. Any suggestions? Maybe some of these protesters (who came from all the world, fon't forget -- it isn't just Seattle's ex-hippie population) could come up with something. We're overdue for a nice purging riot -- maybe some good will come of it. I sure hope so -- the current system, booming economy here in the US notwithstanding, is headed down the wrong path fast...
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Amnesty International condemns the lack of serious discussion about relevant human rights issues at WTO talks.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
The following is a first-hand account from a Stanford student of the lack of police brutality:
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:24:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Louise A."
Subject: Re: EMERGENCY RESPONSE DEMO TO POLICE VIOLENCE IN SEATTLE (fwd)
Greetings from Seattle,
I was at the demo today -- will send out a full report soon -- but for
now, i just want to say that reports of police brutality are not
exaggerated. Many are in fact grossly underestimated. I didn't get
anything worse than tear gas, but police have been
beating with riot sticks
peaceful protestors who sat or lay on the ground. They have taken
protestors who were wearing face masks, covered the inside of the mask
with pepper spray and forced it back onto the person's face. They dragged
an elderly woman across the ground by her hair and an arm. They've shot
rubber bullets at ranges of a few feet, and one officer pulled a real gun
on protestors before other officers restrained him. In addition,
police have _not_ been arresting protestors to any extent -- I heard 18
arrests the whole day -- they have simply been attacking us. Now the
mayor has declared a state of civil emergency, set a 7 pm curfew dowtown,
and called out the National Guard. So if you can make it to the Palo Alto
demo tomorrow, do. (info below if you missed it)
NO WTO!
In solidarity,
Louise A.
Think about free trade for a second. What free trade is is a way for the rich to get richer. Those who can afford to set up manufacturing plants in foreign third world countries and ship manufactured goods benefit immensely from Free Trade. It allows them to exploit the rest of humankind for our North American benefit, and profit ridiculously for doing it. That's all I have to say.
ZNet, a community of people concerned with social change.
Wah!
Seattle Police Chief Norm Stamper praised the actions of his officers, saying they remained in control of the streets. "I've seen some remarkable restraint and effective community-relation efforts" by the police, he said.
Mmkay, like, when I get teargassed, it does very little to build my community-relations with the police. Certainly, the police have an obligation to keep things under control, but the kinds of things that went on were hardly in order for a predominantly non-violent demonstration.
It's great to be able to read the comments of the people who were actually at the protest, rather than folks who just watched it on TV or read about it - I trust them more. And from what I hear from folks posting here sounds to me like most of the bad shit happened when the police whipped out the pepper spray and started getting violent. Remind anyone of a certain democratic convention?
-lx
Why use credit cards, when you can loot? I mean - just cut out the middle man and pick up stuff for yourself...
W S BWSB
From what I have seen (I am in downtown Seattle right now), there has been VERY minimal police violence, almost no injuries to people, and the vast majority of the protest WAS nonviolent.
There were a lot of people that started coming out, particularly toward the end of the afternoon/evening, who saw this as an excuse to riot and destroy property. There were also a large number of peaceful protesters trying to talk them down.
For the most part, the police simply used tear gas (not pleasant, but nonviolent), pepper spray, and some rubber bullets. Mostly gas and pepper spray. And they used it fairly sparingly until it became evident that something had to be done to get things under control, and they imposed the curfew. Then they got more agressive with the tear gas to get people OUT of the downtown area.
There was a lot of property destruction done by a small (in comparison) group of people, and the police, for the most part, excersized a good deal of restraint in dealing with it.
Also, for the most part, the protesters (peaceful) that I have talked to feel that today was a GREAT success, that their message was heard, and that their objectives were accomplished. I don't think that will get lost in the noise at all.
All in all, I must applaud both the peaceful protesters of today -and- the police. They both did their jobs, did them well, and nobody really got hurt (that I'm aware of). It could have been A LOT worse.
- strabo
Second, these multi-column web pages (like MSNBC and CNN) are starting to tick me off. Scroll down a page or two, and the news article is crammed into about 60% of the screen, with huge whitespace margins. At least on /. you can turn most of the sidebars off.
Third, only in Seattle would rioters loot a Starbucks... :)
I am a man of const int sorrows
Reading all this got me thinking about something very interesting.
Free Trade implies getting something for free, but trading for it. Hence, you are not getting something for free if you are trading. OTOH, If you are getting something for free, you are not technically trading.
With companies no longer holding financial accountability for their actions, they exert the power that they gain from these finances on those who they benefit most from, their employees. After all, without employees making the goods, there are no consumers.
So the employees get paid less. I hope people here do realize, that when the ratio of average wealth to total wealth decreases, those who have the wealth benefit in a higher priced dollar.
So, the employees strike. But of course, their money is essentially worthless compared to the wealth of the corporation. In other words, striking is pointless if it means starvation.
And once corporations start pulling in larger profits than most governments, shit is going to hit the fan when a overvalued geek and a good ol' boy who likes fellatio disagree.
Gibson couldn't have nailed the societal future more on the head with his sprawl series. You can already see the "megacorps" clawing out of the woodwork.
-Erik-
...these people are really out to lunch. I mean, they really don't Get It. They *vastly* overstate the power of the WTO, they assign all kinds of strange agendas to the conference, and they purport to speak for people that they do not.
One specific example was one bong-boy I saw who was fixated on the idea that the WTO was going to force countries to accept genetically engineered foods. Well firstly, if a given country didn't want such things imported, they are fully able to ban them under the provisions of the WTO - the WTO does not compromise a country's soverenty. But more importantly, I WANT such foodstuffs, dammit! How dare this person assume he speaks for anyone other than his own little group?!
The more I see of both sides, the more I believe that the WTO is a Good Thing, and that the protestors are misguided, undereducated, misinformed, confused, bewildered, and just plain Wrong.
THAT'S the outcome of your protest guys. I got your message, I got the WTO's, and it's clear to me who's in the right.
Not to mention that it wasn't the WTO that rioted and burned Seattle. That's unrelated to the issues, but it does show what types of people are attracted to "civil disobedience" actions.
send all spam to theotherwhitemeat@ropine.com
Hint. If you say you're going to go to Seattle and engage in violence, which quite a few people did, then go to Seattle and engage in violence, you're going to get a reaction from police.
It's interesting to see people in the Open Source community dissing free trade (the WTO, contrary to popular belief, is not a free trade pact). So you want the government telling you who you can and not collaborate with on Open Source projects around the world?
Ah, freedom.
Regarding the US beef issue, you got it wrong. The US offered to mark all their hormone treated meat as such, and through that giving European consumers a choice to buy it or not. The European Union OTOH didn't want to give their people any choice, hence the quarrel.
Funny, I keep reading the opposite in French newspapers. The EU has offered to accept American beef it was guaranteed to be grown w/o hormons.
On top of that, american beef certified as homron free was still on sale here -- until the DGCCRF (= French for FDA) found that most of it actually was hormon treated, the importers had just lied!!!
--
--
The trouble with your argument is that the WTO is about as divorced from the concept of free trade as one could possibly be.
Its main concern is to disallow free trade by forcing its own view on how trade should be conducted in the world. That's not free. Free means unregulated not just by politicians but also by cartels and trade pressure groups, and that's total anathema to the WTO. Its primary goal is the exact opposite.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
what a wonderful riot-police y2k preparedness test.
--
...which the Boston Tea Party was. However, at least they didn't block up the city or harass the police :)
;))
(Of course, it's probable that the town police were involved in the Tea Party
Who am I?
Why am here?
Where is the chocolate?
What is your Slash Rating?
Gee, and aren't the people actually carrying out the negotiations "special interest groups" or extreme corporatists?
---
There is some evidence - which is pretty weak - that the hormones used may be slightly carcinogenic.
In 1982, there was weak evidence that AIDS was contagious, and most scientists actually believed that the death rate was a few %. See what happens now.
EU trade policy is all about protecting European farmers, and has nothing to do with European consumers.
There's a limited amount of truth here. Actually, EU would rather import the limited amount of american beef than with deal with the sanctions. HOWEVER, if they were to accept it, europeans consumer would buy LESS beef, and not just LESS american beef.
As the previosu poster said, the US negotiators offered to label the meat as treated. The point is not to protect consumers, but to prevent cheaper imports from competing with subsidised farmers.
That's just blatant affirmation with no basis in reality. It is impossible for the EU to allow hormons in European produced beef, as it would scare customers away and people would overturn govt's on this. This is a pressing issue in Europe, remember, we already have BSE to deal with. What you don't understand: Americans don't give a fuck about the quality of their food. Look at all the fat bastards in your demographics. Obesity is the #1 health problem in the US, or close enough. THAT IS NOT THE CASE HERE.
--
before today, most people were not aware of that many people were displeased with the WTO.
the riot is a more effective way of publicizing this fact than purchasing 10s of millions of dollars in ads.
"bad publicity is better than no publicity", the saying goes.
I know a guy, a Marxist, who owns his own computer related company, 70 employees, extremely successful. He tells me he uses Marxism all the time to analyze the market place and trends, etc. So, perhaps all Marxists aren't "boneheads".
Environmental Protections ? -- Naahh!
Health Care ? -- Naahh!
Antitrust Rulings against Microsoft ? -- Naahhh!
NOW you know why Bill Gates was so eager to have the WTO Conference hosted in Seattle.
A few years ago there was a riot (sports related, non political) here in Vancouver, BC, just north of Seattle. Someone was hit in the head with a rubber bullet, and suffered severe brain damage.
They're certianly better than normal bullets, but they're still weapons, and it's not ok to use them on civilians.
Cheers,
Rick Kirkland
Um, first of all, the environment has been Improving for many years, and secondly even in the worst times what would were doing could hardly be called 'destroying'
You know theres a limitless supply of oil, don't you? its called ethinol (comes from corn).
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
(From the Seattle Times) Environmentalists joined hands with steelworkers, nuns, French cheese-makers, vegans and sea-turtle impersonators. Teenagers in baggy-legged pants and graying hippies walked side-by-side. Social workers and lawyers shared picket lines with body-pierced punks and tattooed grungers. /here/ against the WTO. Why do we keep bitching and moaning about the loss of privacy, stupid patent laws, crypto restrictions, all that crap. I'm ready to protest for privacy rights!
I love America. Sometimes I get disillusioned, but something like this always comes along. If you don't like the state of the country, change it. I'm in Columbus, Ohio, and there are protests
Communication is only possible between equals
Obviously, people mean different things when they use this phrase. In general, however, it means a few simple things. There are rights to organize and unionize. That goes from basic things from not being arrested for going on strike (which happens in many countries) to more advanced rights like not getting fired on mere suspicion of union sympathies. There are the protections against child labor and forced labor. There are workplace health and safety laws.
There's no question that, even with these equal rights guaranteed, people in third world countries would still often earn wages that would be considered intolerably low in the first world. Factories would still relocate for cheaper labor.
It seems to me that to call the drive for such basic rights as these (which are lacking in much of the world) "protectionist" is missing the point entirely. If these rights were universally enforced, it could only improve the lives of millions. Yes, there are people who are happy to be making $.50 a day; no, there is no one who is happy to have to sell their child, glad to get cancer or mutilations from their job, or overjoyed to be thrown in jail for peacefully supporting a union.
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Dude, russia was aganst us, they were supporters of Slobo. This didn't stop clinton from saying that they were on our side when the whole thing started, though...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
As an anarchist, i will ask from all writers not to abuse this term, anarchism is about people struggling for freedom from capitalist explotaion and state repression, it has nothing to do with primitive vandalism, and actually, many anarchist, among myself are self-proclaimed to be pacifists and non-violent in their nature.
so please, next time you wish to refer to vandalism, call it vandalism, not anarchism, as this puts a black label on many anarchists which have little do to with useless violence and destruction.
Natureman
The only first hand account I see is that she says "I didn't get anything worse than tear gas".
She does not claim to have seen any of the other things she talks about. I'm sure the rumor mill is spinning at top frenzy out on the streets.
The world does not need them. All they do is cause trouble. They do not suggest any viable alternatives to the WTO. They look like a waste of O2 to me!
No doubt the WTO needs improvement but show be any organisation that doesn't. What those fools are doing is showing everyone that the only alternative to WTO is a bunch of lunatics who want to destroy and who hate anything remotely civilised!
In the UK, we had a load of them in London recently. I doubt anyone here thought that this "protest" would be any different.
I am a great believer in being suspicious of large organisations. I am wary of big governments, large companies, political parties and protest movements. That doesn't mean I think any of them are a bad thing. If anything is a bad thing, it is the narrow minded bigotry of radicals!
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
The US is perhaps one of the worst offenders when it comes to following the terms of nearly any treaty they sign. If the terms of the treaty are favourable to them, they will beat you over the head with it. If the terms are unfavourable, then they will do whatever they want anyway - and then, when brought to treaty arbitration (which they almost always lose) they cry foul, and complain about this "evil" treaty.
The NAFTA treaty has helped protect Canada and Mexico from American bullying on many, many occasions. Free Trade is GOOD.
The price *is* lower, of course. Otherwise why would anyone bother ? The whole point is to make cattle bigger and meatier quicker, so you can sell more cow more quickly.
The price would be marginally lower. The quality would be significantly lesser. The health might be at risk.
In the end, we, european consumers and citizens, would'nt get anything from this crap. We have nothing to gain, a lot to lose. A lot being, our health.
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Contains RealVideo, RealAudio and news from the streets by eyewitnesses.
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
Oh. Taking that route, are we now? No problem.
Guess what? You're from the race of the fascist who caused the death of millions of Jews.
So, therefore, in regard to: From the mouth of a little immature brat who dose "first posts!!", I say...
Big. Fucking. Deal.
It wasn't even from my mouth.
Tee hee.
-cow
The only problem I have with that is that the protestors are on public land, and they have the constitutional right to gather and protest. That you even need a 'permit' to protest is ludicrous. That the police feel it necessary to break up the protest instead of arresting the real troublemakers speak poorly of what the ideals of our constitution have come to.
Im glad to see the protests, it gives hope people havent totally been turned into sheep.
as for the WTO, they basically allow for the lowest common denominator. The past century of US history has been about working conditions in the labor force. The WTO places equal footing to those who abuse their workers with those who pay a proper wage and have proper safety conditions.
You know you have a hot issue when the Sierra Club teams up with the Teamsters
Before this started yesterday, I checked out the pages of the official protesters. At various times of the day, they gradually started disappearing - 'Error: Page not found.... Sorry, we had to shut this site down...' etc! It's only the well-established sites like this one that can express contraversial views without immediate closure from the upstream provider.
Slashdot has created an atmosphere where public, free expression is tantamount, I for one think that this column is probably the most important story that will appear this week, and this is an ideal place to disseminate opinions.
Side note: On Sunday, I watched a (UK) newsnight segment describing how the _protesters_ had stockpiles of CS gas, etc., and were planning 'evil schemes' through 'that Internet' thing (I'm paraphrasing). In fact, such measures were used against them, and the visible 'net presence was advocating peaceful demonstrations and public information. When TV news shows a web site such as this, why do they refuse to give the URL so you can make an objective opinion for yourself, but in the corporate world, the base URL at least is plastered everywhere?
The two major hate groups in Oregon (that I knew about) were volksfront and east side white pride. Volksfront is no more, and east side white pride is much smaller than it once was. Portland also has some psychotic sharps (skinheads against racial prejudice) that seem to think everyone who isn't a sharp is a nazi, so in that sence they are just as bad.
"Reality is less than television."-Brian Oblivion
Actually, the US is a constitutional democratic republic. The last real direct democracy was in Athens thousands of years ago. A republic that votes for its government through the process of democracy and has a constitution that spells out the limits of government is the best that the world has come up with so far. Unfortunately, that isn't what the UN looks like.
DB
If you had taken *more* than an introductory economics course you would know that industrial development (which is obviously what the 3rd world wants) has *always* been accompanied by restrictions on international trade and protected markets. U.S. in 19th century protected its nascent industries with high tariffs. Germany and Japan while developing industrially had *extremely* protectionist trade measures. The Soviet Union and China also had severe restrictions on international trade while building up their basic industries after their respective revolutions. So, capitalist or communist, restrictions on international trade accompany industrial development. The free trade issue is more complex than it appears at first glance...
I may be speaking out of line, but not everyone in that crowd is protesting for protectionist causes, you know.
Greenpeace is protesting, as are a slew of human rights organizations, all in force. And I can pretty much guarantee that those folks aren't protesting in favor of the American worker...
There are a number of people born and raised in this country, who are concerned about the rich-poor gap and its implications. And if you truly believe the WTO, with its current attitudes toward environment and foreign labor laws, are helping to raise the bar for other countries, you may want to think again. The WTO cares if Coke and Phillip Morris can expand in Asia and beyond, not if the piles of discarded soft drink cans and cigarette butts block the way of the thousands of people trying to make it to the state hospital for their weekly chemotherapy treatments...but I digress.
Don't get me wrong. I do sympathize for your cynicism. Its hard to live in this country and realize that our standard of living comes at the cost of other people, somewhere else on this planet. But I hope you realize that at least some of those protesters are out there because they are truly concerned about corporations' cavalier attitudes regarding people around the world, not just in our corner of it...
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
What? How in the hell did I miss hearing about this. My God, I really do live in a broom closet!
Without labeling, at any given moment, the consumer will pay virtually the same price for either kind of beef, and the companies will soak up the extra profit.
Over the long term, if you in fact have an ideally efficient market, this will lead to lower prices for the consumer. In many cases, this does not happen in practice.
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