I spent two months writing a scientific thesis in LaTeX before going back to Word. I work in a very visual manner, so I found with LaTeX that I would recompile my document after every sentence. I get a sense of satisfaction out of laying out my document as I go that means I'm calmer and more productive when using Word.
Most Word users can't use Word properly. If you take the same amount of time to learn all the features of Word as you would to learn LaTeX then Word actually becomes comparable. Admittedly there are some things that bug me and require work-arounds but I found the same thing with LaTeX. In the end, when I finished my thesis in Word, the most ardent Linux user in the department had trouble finding anywhere the finished product didn't compare to a LaTeX written document.
Anecdotal evidence can easily be countered with more anecdotal evidence. I did my PhD in Physics at the University of Newcaslte in Australia, the split there amongst grad students and academics was about 65:35 to Word.
Yeah, you're right, they are co-mingled somewhat. The trick is getting the order right. A well adjusted person will think of themselves as looking good without necessarily trying to look attractive. If you care about someone you will want them to look good by that measure (their own). Now it may be that in doing that they become attractive to you, that's fine and healthy.
Your last point is worth addressing. Women are just as capable of inappropriately stereotyping women as men are. It's about the propagation of disempowering stereotypes. If you grow up as part of group B constantly being told you aren't as good at X as group A, then you will grow to believe that, and will probably pass that idea on to other members of both group B and group A alike.
Ah, I see the problem. I thought you meant: 'How so? On a woman!?'. Whereas in fact you were just seeking clarification. My fault, sorry.
I meant in general, in fact. Looking attractive is a judgement of sexual appeal. Looking good is a judgement of aesthetics. A vase rarely looks attractive, but is more often said to look good.
First off, sadly most women AREN'T able to program a VCR, let alone deal with their computer. Secondly, you're full of crap about a tech savvy woman feeling "uncomfortable".
Yeah, ok, now go and ask these women if they feel comfortable trying to sell a piece of tech to a guy who thinks the only opinion they have to offer that is worth anything, about buying a laptop, is on whether it will go with the kitchen top counter.
Every guy I know of thinks "wow, she's cool" if they find a girl (even if it's just a family member or a friend) that knows about technology
Yeah, I'm one of those guys.
-- which then boosts the girl's confidence because she realizes that she's more attractive to guys.
Whoa, a girl's worth isn't determined by how attractive she is to guys. Not in her eyes, and it certainly shouldn't be in yours either. That's one of the fundamental tenants of feminism. That situation you have described is only confidence boosting for the girl if she is interested in the guy who has subsequently become attracted to her by her tech savvyness.
Yeah, I get what you mean, and it is a problem. The difficulty is every time one of these things is picked up it looks petty, but it happens a lot.
It's kinda like being bullied. It happens day after day, someone calling you names or flicking rubber at the back of your head until you finally snap and deck them. Everyone says 'well, what did they do to deserve that?' A reply of they called me a name looks pretty poor, but it's the relentlessness, or in this case the omnipresence of the assumption, that is damaging.
Honestly there is noting wrong with liking the product. It's combination of features might really suit you. You won't look stupid if you evaluate based on the complete package. You might look a little silly if you just buy it based on their marketing campaign without digging deeper to make sure it's up to spec, but that's a different issue. The real problem is that they marketed it (chose to direct this particular campaign) at just women, they assumed that only women wouldn't be tech savvy. And when you launch a site to market to women you're effectively saying that your regular site is for marketing to men.
Well yeah, because the product is inherently tech. It's ok to sell an ornament based on it's aesthetic appeal, but if I were to try to sell you a car with the sole selling point being that the tyres had white side-walls, you'd think I was taking you for an idiot. That's what's happening here. Sure, women want a range of colours (so do men) but they are not going to make their whole purchasing choice based on aesthetics that's just insulting them.
Yes, but they didn't include a single male in any of the pictures on their site. If they were just interested in marketing to those who were interested in cooking, fashion and lifestyle; they should have acknowledged that men can fall into that category also. Instead what they've done is to suggest that men don't buy laptops for those reasons and that to do so is an inherantly female trait.
An excellent and well thought out rebuttal. I might even agree with you. The analogy is flawed if you examine it on that level. However, all I was intending to do is show that stereotypes can have an influence on our behaviour.
Perhaps I would have been better off saying that "...By treating women like they aren't tech savvy, you're reinforcing the gender schema that they aren't tech savvy." But then I would have had to describe what a gender schema was and how that had negative consequences for women. And, well gender schema's can create uncomfortable environments for women in tech so it's true enough.
Clearly, if all the advertising you are seeing is telling you that the only reason a woman might want a laptop is so that she might use it as a coloured cook-book you might assume that she can't offer a tech savvy opinion. She might even think her opinion on tech isn't worth anything to you. Now, if that's her job then she's going to feel pretty damn uncomfortable about that situation.
The patriarchal meme acts on men and women differently, so coming up with equivalent negative stereotypes is in most cases impractical. For this reason it is hard for many men to see the negative consequences of female stereotypes. This is particularly the case in male dominated fields where they rarely encounter a female point of view. Thus, my goal here was simply to get the men posting to understand that stereotypes can be damaging. How it might be true (if you like) that assumptions along gender lines can have uncomfortable consequences.
Actually it bugs me a bit that men are stereotyped as superficial oafs, but what would really get me offended is if that was the primary way Dell marketed at men. Typically when any company sets up a female marketing campaign it's because they acknowledge that the rest of their campaign is targeted at men.
Why can't women like small pink laptops? Why can't they like cooking?
They can and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that Dell thinks they should like those things just because they are female.
Dell didn't market to people who like small pink laptops and cooking. They marketed to women, apparently on the basis that the predominant reason a woman would want a laptop is to have a colourful electronic cook-book.
No, I don't. The test is designed to make the slashdotters think about why "Slashdotters would feel uncomfortable wearing pink." Pink is just a colour but we have attached all sorts of stereotypes to it. Stereotypes many slashdotters might not feel comfortable with.
Actually, I'm like you. I like bright colours in clothing. They do brighten my day.
Still, when I first noticed that all my clothes were drab and started trying to address that, I had to overcome a lot of self consciousness about it. Now I just wish I could have the same colour range to choose from in clothes that women do.
Yeah, I know you're a troll but it may interest you to know that I am male. This information will, I'm sure, allow you to now properly tailor your insult. Though perhaps if you hadn't assumed that all feminists were female it would have saved you the trouble of having to re-work things.
By marketing at stereotypes, you reinforce them. By treating women like they aren't tech savvy, you're making them feel uncomfortable about being tech savvy.
If you think I'm talking nonsense then try this experiment. I assume you are a guy with a comment like that. So, go to the department store. Find and buy a pink jacket/shirt and wear it for a month. When someone comments, or asks why you are wearing pink, reply that you like the colour. Then after a month, come back to me and tell me how comfortable you felt about doing it.
Slashdot Mirror
Since when is reagent hyphenated?
But if they don't believe in God, then what does swearing on a stack of Bibles prove?
I spent two months writing a scientific thesis in LaTeX before going back to Word. I work in a very visual manner, so I found with LaTeX that I would recompile my document after every sentence. I get a sense of satisfaction out of laying out my document as I go that means I'm calmer and more productive when using Word.
Most Word users can't use Word properly. If you take the same amount of time to learn all the features of Word as you would to learn LaTeX then Word actually becomes comparable. Admittedly there are some things that bug me and require work-arounds but I found the same thing with LaTeX. In the end, when I finished my thesis in Word, the most ardent Linux user in the department had trouble finding anywhere the finished product didn't compare to a LaTeX written document.
Anecdotal evidence can easily be countered with more anecdotal evidence. I did my PhD in Physics at the University of Newcaslte in Australia, the split there amongst grad students and academics was about 65:35 to Word.
It'd be better if it was Battlechess 3D.
Yeah, you're right, they are co-mingled somewhat. The trick is getting the order right. A well adjusted person will think of themselves as looking good without necessarily trying to look attractive. If you care about someone you will want them to look good by that measure (their own). Now it may be that in doing that they become attractive to you, that's fine and healthy.
Granted I could have chosen a better example.
Your last point is worth addressing. Women are just as capable of inappropriately stereotyping women as men are. It's about the propagation of disempowering stereotypes. If you grow up as part of group B constantly being told you aren't as good at X as group A, then you will grow to believe that, and will probably pass that idea on to other members of both group B and group A alike.
Ah, I see the problem. I thought you meant: 'How so? On a woman!?'. Whereas in fact you were just seeking clarification. My fault, sorry.
I meant in general, in fact. Looking attractive is a judgement of sexual appeal. Looking good is a judgement of aesthetics. A vase rarely looks attractive, but is more often said to look good.
First off, sadly most women AREN'T able to program a VCR, let alone deal with their computer. Secondly, you're full of crap about a tech savvy woman feeling "uncomfortable".
Yeah, ok, now go and ask these women if they feel comfortable trying to sell a piece of tech to a guy who thinks the only opinion they have to offer that is worth anything, about buying a laptop, is on whether it will go with the kitchen top counter.
Every guy I know of thinks "wow, she's cool" if they find a girl (even if it's just a family member or a friend) that knows about technology
Yeah, I'm one of those guys.
-- which then boosts the girl's confidence because she realizes that she's more attractive to guys.
Whoa, a girl's worth isn't determined by how attractive she is to guys. Not in her eyes, and it certainly shouldn't be in yours either. That's one of the fundamental tenants of feminism. That situation you have described is only confidence boosting for the girl if she is interested in the guy who has subsequently become attracted to her by her tech savvyness.
Ah, but Dell have suggested that only women would be capable of being duped by this campaign.
Yeah, I get what you mean, and it is a problem. The difficulty is every time one of these things is picked up it looks petty, but it happens a lot.
It's kinda like being bullied. It happens day after day, someone calling you names or flicking rubber at the back of your head until you finally snap and deck them. Everyone says 'well, what did they do to deserve that?' A reply of they called me a name looks pretty poor, but it's the relentlessness, or in this case the omnipresence of the assumption, that is damaging.
Honestly there is noting wrong with liking the product. It's combination of features might really suit you. You won't look stupid if you evaluate based on the complete package. You might look a little silly if you just buy it based on their marketing campaign without digging deeper to make sure it's up to spec, but that's a different issue. The real problem is that they marketed it (chose to direct this particular campaign) at just women, they assumed that only women wouldn't be tech savvy. And when you launch a site to market to women you're effectively saying that your regular site is for marketing to men.
If you are interested in finding out why people could be offended by this, look up the concept of a gender schema. Maybe that will help.
Well yeah, because the product is inherently tech. It's ok to sell an ornament based on it's aesthetic appeal, but if I were to try to sell you a car with the sole selling point being that the tyres had white side-walls, you'd think I was taking you for an idiot. That's what's happening here. Sure, women want a range of colours (so do men) but they are not going to make their whole purchasing choice based on aesthetics that's just insulting them.
If you acknowledge that it is true for a man, can you not see why it is true also for a woman? Or do women only exist to be attractive?
Yes, but they didn't include a single male in any of the pictures on their site. If they were just interested in marketing to those who were interested in cooking, fashion and lifestyle; they should have acknowledged that men can fall into that category also. Instead what they've done is to suggest that men don't buy laptops for those reasons and that to do so is an inherantly female trait.
An excellent and well thought out rebuttal. I might even agree with you. The analogy is flawed if you examine it on that level. However, all I was intending to do is show that stereotypes can have an influence on our behaviour.
Perhaps I would have been better off saying that "...By treating women like they aren't tech savvy, you're reinforcing the gender schema that they aren't tech savvy." But then I would have had to describe what a gender schema was and how that had negative consequences for women. And, well gender schema's can create uncomfortable environments for women in tech so it's true enough.
Clearly, if all the advertising you are seeing is telling you that the only reason a woman might want a laptop is so that she might use it as a coloured cook-book you might assume that she can't offer a tech savvy opinion. She might even think her opinion on tech isn't worth anything to you. Now, if that's her job then she's going to feel pretty damn uncomfortable about that situation.
The patriarchal meme acts on men and women differently, so coming up with equivalent negative stereotypes is in most cases impractical. For this reason it is hard for many men to see the negative consequences of female stereotypes. This is particularly the case in male dominated fields where they rarely encounter a female point of view. Thus, my goal here was simply to get the men posting to understand that stereotypes can be damaging. How it might be true (if you like) that assumptions along gender lines can have uncomfortable consequences.
You should keep in mind that looking good and looking attractive are two different things.
You should read the comments below. If you did you'd see that is exactly what I am trying to do.
Actually it bugs me a bit that men are stereotyped as superficial oafs, but what would really get me offended is if that was the primary way Dell marketed at men. Typically when any company sets up a female marketing campaign it's because they acknowledge that the rest of their campaign is targeted at men.
Why can't women like small pink laptops? Why can't they like cooking?
They can and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that Dell thinks they should like those things just because they are female.
Dell didn't market to people who like small pink laptops and cooking. They marketed to women, apparently on the basis that the predominant reason a woman would want a laptop is to have a colourful electronic cook-book.
I assume you think pink==not tech savvy?
No, I don't. The test is designed to make the slashdotters think about why "Slashdotters would feel uncomfortable wearing pink." Pink is just a colour but we have attached all sorts of stereotypes to it. Stereotypes many slashdotters might not feel comfortable with.
Perhaps you missed the bit where I said I'd overcome the self-consciousness?
Actually, I'm like you. I like bright colours in clothing. They do brighten my day.
Still, when I first noticed that all my clothes were drab and started trying to address that, I had to overcome a lot of self consciousness about it. Now I just wish I could have the same colour range to choose from in clothes that women do.
Yeah, I know you're a troll but it may interest you to know that I am male. This information will, I'm sure, allow you to now properly tailor your insult. Though perhaps if you hadn't assumed that all feminists were female it would have saved you the trouble of having to re-work things.
By marketing at stereotypes, you reinforce them. By treating women like they aren't tech savvy, you're making them feel uncomfortable about being tech savvy.
If you think I'm talking nonsense then try this experiment. I assume you are a guy with a comment like that. So, go to the department store. Find and buy a pink jacket/shirt and wear it for a month. When someone comments, or asks why you are wearing pink, reply that you like the colour. Then after a month, come back to me and tell me how comfortable you felt about doing it.