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Ancient Fossil Offers Clues To Primate Evolution

langelgjm sends in an update to a story we discussed over the weekend about an extremely well-preserved fossil of an ancient primate, Darwinius masillae, that sheds light on an important area of evolution. The 47 million-year-old specimen has now been officially unveiled, and while many media outlets are stumbling over themselves with phrases like "missing link" and "holy grail," it's clearly a very impressive find. "Discovered two years ago, the exquisitely preserved specimen is not a direct ancestor of monkeys and humans, but hints at what such an ancestor might have looked like. According to researchers, 'The specimen has an unusual history: it was privately collected and sold in two parts, with only the lesser part previously known. The second part, which has just come to light, shows the skeleton to be the most complete primate known in the fossil record.' The scientific article describing the find was published yesterday in the peer-reviewed, open-access journal PLoS ONE. Google's home page is also celebrating the find with a unique image." Science blogger Brian Switek offers some criticism of the academic paper and the media swarm, saying, "I would have hoped that this fossil would receive the care and attention it deserves, but for now it looks like a cash cow for the History Channel. Indeed, this association may not have only presented overblown claims to the public, but hindered good science, as well."

311 comments

  1. I got 10 bucks here ... by Nursie · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... says it's a hoax. Any takers?

    Actually, even if not, the circumstances are now rather dubious. Hopefully it hasn't been damaged in the course of it being sold in two parts and shipped around in private hands.

    1. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by vil3nr0b · · Score: 1

      A hoax? How could you be such a pessimist when you know those two guys just unveiled the frozen bigfoot they caught? :D http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200834/1806/Shock-Bigfoot-claim-is-frozen-hoax/

    2. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      ... says it's a hoax.

      Of course its a hoax. everyone knows the earth is only 6000 years old.

    3. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Talderas · · Score: 4, Funny

      ... says it's a hoax. Any takers?

      It's a pseudo-hoax. I'm sure the citizens of Magrathea are quite pleased that we're stumbling upon the little details they left.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    4. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Would you stop this Christianity bashing already? We admit it, it was a mistake, the earth is older than 6000 years. It's just that very few of us are capable of counting any higher. :(

    5. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It was found over 25 years ago - why is it just now getting attention. Sound like a play for grant money to me

    6. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Alt_Cognito · · Score: 5, Informative

      This was studied for two years before it was released, so it seems that they've done some due diligence to make sure this was NOT a hoax.

      X-rays were taken taken of the internal structures (which are allegedly impossible to fake) and they proved out to be authentic.

    7. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by just_another_sean · · Score: 4, Funny

      No way, Google changed their logo for this! It *has* to be real!

      --
      Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
    8. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Hognoxious · · Score: 0, Troll

      You mean go ooo ooo ooo gle?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by binpajama · · Score: 2, Funny

      10 PRINT The power of Christ compels you !

      20 GOTO 10

    10. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by quanminoan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The correct answer is "Yes. I will take that bet."

    11. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Tripledub · · Score: 1

      It just seems like its been 25 years since we had a prez that paid attention to small details such as science. And I agree a play for grant money.

      --
      The Poetry of Google Voice is very strange.
      gv-poetry.com
    12. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Would you stop this Christianity bashing already? We admit it, it was a mistake, the earth is older than 6000 years

      Damn right! It's 6013 years old.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    13. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Skelosh · · Score: 0

      As Jerry Cornelius says: science is just a more sophisticated form of superstition.

    14. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It may well be true in the fictional universe where he lives.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    15. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by penguin_dance · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not just that, it was allegedly found by an amateur and hung in a collector's living room for 20 years!

      Ida was unearthed by an amateur fossil-hunter some 25 years ago in Messel pit, an ancient crater lake near Frankfurt, Germany, famous for its fossils.

      She was cleaned and set in polyester resin - and incredibly, was hung on a mystery German collector's wall for 20 years.

      Sky News sources say the owner had no idea of the unique fossil's significance and simply admired it like a cherished Van Gogh or Picasso painting.

      But in 2006, Ida came into the hands of private dealer Thomas Perner, who presented her to Prof Hurum at the annual Hamburg Fossil and Mineral Fair in Germany - a centre for the murky world of fossil-trading.

      So the word, "fake" has crossed my mind too!

      --
      If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
    16. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by hitnrunrambler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lucy and the Piltdown man were allegedly impossible to fake as well...

      Sometimes it's not even intent to deceive, a desire to see results has the ability to create the results you expected to see.

      for me.... /doubtful
      I wouldn't bet $10 against "we've got an opportunity to learn something" but I'll bet $100 against "this is a world-changer!"

    17. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by devnulljapan · · Score: 1

      You put Lucy and Piltdown in the same category? And someone mods you Insightful?
      What does "allegedly impossible to fake" mean anyway? Piltdown was a fake, and was uncovered as such. So, definitely not impossible to fake. The cricket bat he was buried with was dead giveaway too.
      You're not seriously suggesting equivalence with Lucy though are you?

    18. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

      Lucy and the Piltdown man were allegedly impossible to fake as well...

      I'm sorry, are you claiming that Lucy is a fake? Is the American Museum of Natural History displaying a hoax? Do you have a reference for that?

      --

      Enigma

    19. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      Since when is Lucy a hoax?

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    20. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Jake+Griffin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Judging the "age" of the Earth really depends on what you define it as. I'm a Christian (I should say believer in Christ, because I really hate the word Christian), and I believe that the Earth could be as old as whatever it is the scientific facts point to, whether it be millions of years or whatever. However, I believe that the Earth has only been around for about 6,000 years. The distinction? I believe that Adam and Eve were created "with age," and not created as newborn babies, so why couldn't the Earth and everything else have been done the same way? Do I have proof of this? No, it's faith, I'll admit that. But you really can't prove I'm wrong either, and if you think you can, you're failing to understand the concept.

      --
      SIG FAULT: Post index out of bounds.
    21. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lucy is not a hoax, there is genuinely 40% of a very old 3.5 foot skeleton. I didn't mean to question the validity of the fossils, but how well do you follow the evolution of their analysis?

      It is an important and ancient discovery, however it's genuineness enabled a lot of wild speculation (not by Johnson himself but by the 80's equivalent of the /. crowd). Much of this speculation (even to such "solid science" matters as brain size and locomotion) are now being contradicted by the new wave of analysis of the so called "Lucy's Baby" find. World changers always get revised when the world fails to change.

      p.s. in high school I was told that they found this... http://nazret.com/blog/media/lucy_model.jpg the Smithsonian taught me they found this http://nazret.com/blog/media/blogs/new/PH2009012402177.jpg

    22. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every reference to a 6000 year old earth isn't bashing Christianity. They are bashing Creationists who take a 2000+ year old book, that has been passed down from word of mouth through hundreds of generations of tellings, put into written form, translated and re-translated to suit the needs and desires of whomever was in power at the time, and think everything in it is a literal translation of Gods will and history.

    23. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Capsaicin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe that the Earth has only been around for about 6,000 years. ... I believe that Adam and Eve were created "with age," and not created as newborn babies ... Do I have proof of this? No, it's faith, I'll admit that. But you really can't prove I'm wrong either.

      The moment there is any onus to prove wrong someone who makes claims without any proof of these claims, a fortiori claims as extraordiary and implausible as these, we are in real trouble. Perhaps it would be best for your to heed St Augustine's warning that accepting ancient Hebrew mythology as scientific facts is a misuse of scripture?

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    24. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Loualbano2 · · Score: 1
    25. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Phoghat · · Score: 1

      You are right sir! I proved it scientifically. I got a large jar and filled it with dirt and rocks and water. After waiting a few weeks, no life was observed proving only god can make a tree.

      --
      Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    26. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Phoghat · · Score: 1

      "However, I believe that the Earth has only been around for about 6,000 years. The distinction? I believe that Adam and Eve were created "with age," and not created as newborn babies, so why couldn't the Earth and everything else have been done the same way? Do I have proof of this? No, it's faith, I'll admit that. But you really can't prove I'm wrong either, and if you think you can, you're failing to understand the concept." I fully under stand the concept and my argument is this: to believe this you have to believe in a god (or whatever) who wants to pull your leg, and yank your chain by manufacturing fossils and clues that make it "seem" the earth is older. God the "jokester", I think not.

      --
      Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    27. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "She was cleaned and set in polyester resin - and incredibly, was hung on a mystery German collector's wall for 20 years."

      Resin impregnation is the normal preparation technique for fossils found at Messel. The shales are very soft and prone to falling apart when exposed to the air. So, they take the specimen and prepare one side of it, then pour resin onto the surface, flip it over, and then prepare the other side. This stabilizes the specimen and enables observation from both sides.

      If it *wasn't* prepared this way it would be cause for suspicion.

    28. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that setting Messel fossils in resin is standard practice for this site. I'd be worried if they weren't prepared that way. The shales in which the fossils occur are chemically unstable when they are exposed to the air and dry out. So you prepare one side of the fossil, embed it in resin, and then prepare the other side.

      They have part and counterpart. It would be pretty tough to fake that consistently. And the CT scan details in the paper make it obvious this is the real thing.

    29. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      omg who the fuck cares!!
      lets look forward and try to save our asses from destroying this planet, then we can worry about how this this is bullshit (and you know it is)

    30. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Jake+Griffin · · Score: 1

      I don't see it as "God the jokester," I see it as a God who doesn't want to be scientifically proven. He WANTS it to take faith to believe in Him. Otherwise, what's the big deal? You'd have to be a fool to not believe in something provable by science, for example, the sun, but it takes a lot more, and is a lot more meaningful, if someone chooses to believe in something even though it cannot be proven to be true or false. The way I like to think about it is if God gave us the capacity to prove that He exists, he is basically more like a puppeteer. What fun is there in making a puppet believe in and love you when you're in control of it? There is none. It's the free will to believe that makes it meaningful.

      --
      SIG FAULT: Post index out of bounds.
    31. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aren't they all asleep? I doubt they know.

    32. Re:I got 10 bucks here ... by devnulljapan · · Score: 1

      >p.s. in high school I was told that they found this... http://nazret.com/blog/media/lucy_model.jpg the Smithsonian taught me they found this http://nazret.com/blog/media/blogs/new/PH2009012402177.jpg

      In school, you were (maybe) told a simplification because you were a kid. A lot of what they have to teach kids in school is simplified because it takes a lot of work and time and effort to get from your second link to the inferences that led to the depiction in the first. This is not idle guesswork, but good solid science. The fact that you, without any relevant training, can't see how to get from A to B has no bearing whatsoever on the find. A lot of work went into analysing Lucy, and there is good evidence to back up the assertions made based on that fossil. The fact that it gets revised as new data come to light is a good thing BTW.

  2. Gand*N+1 Aunt? by tech_fixer · · Score: 0

    I saw in the news today someone saying this might not be your Great*(N+1) Grandmother, but more like your Great*(N+1) Aunt.

    WTF???!!!

    1. Re:Gand*N+1 Aunt? by mhall119 · · Score: 2, Informative

      They mean that it is a relative of modern humans, but not a direct ancestor. You inherited DNA from your grandmother, but not your aunt.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    2. Re:Gand*N+1 Aunt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Unless you're from Alabama....

    3. Re:Gand*N+1 Aunt? by vertickle · · Score: 1

      Unless you're from Alabama....

      Or an Anonymous prick.

    4. Re:Gand*N+1 Aunt? by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

      Admit it, you're just pretending to be from Alabama. It's obvious.

      If you were for real, you wouldn't be able to read.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    5. Re:Gand*N+1 Aunt? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      So that is why people from Alabama grow banjos on their knees? The teacher never told us why.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  3. Give it a rest by Azghoul · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Oh noes! People made money off it!! Science was "hindered"!

    Please. Any hindrance is temporary (47 million years old and it's been a couple more years! Avast!!) and the fossil getting this much attention can only help the cause - money pouring into the area isn't a bad thing either unless you really like staying a poor researcher.

    1. Re:Give it a rest by noundi · · Score: 1

      Except they fucking cut it in half. 47 million years and it was never, not even once, severed, until ink stained cotton sheets were in control.

      --
      I am the lawn!
    2. Re:Give it a rest by anonymous+cowshed · · Score: 1

      Any idea why they cut it in half? I'm not a fossil collector, but would have thought that a whole specimen would be worth considerably more than two halves.

    3. Re:Give it a rest by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      True. Except for the fact that until it is cut in half, all you have is a rock. You have to cut the rock to see whats inside..

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    4. Re:Give it a rest by camperdave · · Score: 5, Funny

      That reminds me of the museum guide who, when asked how old the T-Rex fossil was, replied: "6.5 million and three years, and 6 months old".

      "That's amazing", said the tourist, "How do you know the age so exactly?"
      "Well, that's easy", replied the guide. "It was 6.5 million years old when I started working here, and that was three and a half years ago."

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    5. Re:Give it a rest by pe1rxq · · Score: 1

      If he told you it was 6.5 million years old you have a problem either you hav a hearing problem or you went to a lousy museum or you went to a museum with a lousy guide....

      6.5 million years a go T-Rex was already extinct for quite a while.... Place the decimal point a bit to the right and you get in actuall dinosour territory....

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    6. Re:Give it a rest by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

      How the fuck do you know, asshole, were you there?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Give it a rest by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      To destroy Paminella's tower, bake the hall in the candle of her brain.

      Where does that come from? Can't google it and it's remarkably nonsensical.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    8. Re:Give it a rest by camperdave · · Score: 1

      It's the key line from the 1971 Muppet movie The Frog Prince.

      Princess Melora was put under an evil enchantment in which she said everything backwards (technically she spoke in spoonerisms: "fretty plower" instead of "pretty flower".) In order to dispel the enchantment she had to "bake the hall in the candle of her brain", "her" referring to the "worrible hitch, Taunt Aminella". At Taminella's coronation, Robin the Frog [**Spoilers removed**] thus restoring Melora's speech.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    9. Re:Give it a rest by gemada · · Score: 1

      .. Place the decimal point a bit to the right and you get in actuall dinosour territory....

      usually i don't get too worked up about spelling mistakes but when you mistake a dinosaur for my favourite type of candy, i get mad.

      dinousaur = giant cool lizard

      dinosour = best candy ever

  4. Meanwhile over in Congress by MosesJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't it rather scary that while scientists are getting excited over this 47 million year old fossil that there are fossils in Congress who will swear on a stack of Bibles that the earth is only 6000 years old and that evolution is bunk.

    That people can get elected without having basic modern ape like intelligence is the scary bit, this primate was probably more self-aware than many of those elected officials.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by TheHerk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, but while that is pretty scary, what is more scary are the millions of people that vote for them.

      --
      -Blind faith runs into things.
    2. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by halivar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And scariest of all? The world still turns, and objective reality refuses to accept that proper science is vital to hold the fabric of space-time together.

      Honestly, the only reason anyone ought to care what a politician thinks about creationism is if they decide what's taught in public schools. This is almost always a state matter. Your U.S. Congressman has bunk to do with it.

      And if it really, REALLY troubles you that some congressmen are anti-science, I suggest you give equal time to folks like Dennis Kucinich; after all, is seeing UFO's somehow more scientifically acceptable that an ID-proponent?

    3. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Jurily · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That people can get elected without having basic modern ape like intelligence is the scary bit, this primate was probably more self-aware than many of those elected officials.

      C'mon. They're self-aware alright, and they know all too well who's paying them. And it's not the voters.

    4. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Isn't it rather scary that while scientists are getting excited over this 47 million year old fossil that there are fossils in Congress who will swear on a stack of Bibles that the earth is only 6000 years old and that evolution is bunk.

      C'mon now, slashdot always has these remarks, but you know what? NBC nightly news reported this find last night - the epitome of mainstream - and there was no mention of the Bible or controversy over the validity of evolution, none at all. Just excitement over a great find that may fill in the picture of evolution a bit more. At some point, decrying all this supposed scientific opposition which is really just a small fringe, becomes self-pity, or a persecution complex.

    5. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Bob-taro · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Isn't it rather scary that while scientists are getting excited over this 47 million year old fossil that there are fossils in Congress who will swear on a stack of Bibles that the earth is only 6000 years old and that evolution is bunk.

      Frankly, I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention and that there is no higher power to answer to. I suppose they think we're more "evolved" now.

      --
      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    6. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by TheHerk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd say so. Saying you saw one, if you didn't would be just as asinine as saying god spoke to you. This is likely the case.

      --
      -Blind faith runs into things.
    7. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by linzeal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would rather more people take responsibility for their own morality than depend upon some transcendental source like a god.

    8. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by mdwh2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention

      And here we uncover the fossil known as Straw Man.

      and that there is no higher power to answer to.

      So? There is no evidence that there is. And if there is, there is no way we could know what "morality" he expects us to behave by. There is no reason that his standard of morality should match up with what we consider to be ethical.

      And above all, I find it worrying that people only behave ethically out of fear of having to answer to some "higher power".

    9. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by someSnarkyBastard · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Which would you consider more noble, ethics that I follow because I have decided that it is genuinely the right and proper thing to do by my own reasoning, or ethics that I follow because I am afraid of being punished for my transgressions in either this or the next life? I'd argue the former; an ethical system that derives its power from fear of the whip is not an ethical system at all, its slavish servitude.

    10. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Deadstick · · Score: 1
      That people can get elected without having basic modern ape like intelligence

      Principles, not intelligence. Remember the definition of "demagogue": A man who promotes principles he knows to be false to people he knows to be fools.

      rj

    11. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by mhall119 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Frankly, I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention and that there is no higher power to answer to.

      You find arbitrary morality more comforting than convention?

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    12. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1, Troll

      You're not living on the same planet I live it seems, because many many many people think that morality comes from some holy book.

      Oh, and I find it frightening that this book advocates slavery, genocide, human sacrifice, rape amongst other genuinely terrible things.

    13. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Alt_Cognito · · Score: 1

      We watch the Matrix and say, WOW! This could all be a dream, that our entire perception is constructed through an external mechanism...

      It is still very possible to hold the belief that the world is 6000 years old, and that all of the evidence and proof of evolution etc... is manufactured so to speak. (by this rule though, the age of the universe could be any arbitrary age, including just now*

      * - que spaceballs "just missed it" bit

    14. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by zehaeva · · Score: 1

      You receive your morality from a higher power. Is that really the only reason why you act morally? Is the only reason why you don't rape murder and steal just so that you don't get burned in fiery brimstone for all eternity?

      If somehow it was proved that there was no higher powers at all would you really think "Well, theres no point in being all goody good now, that 13y/o girl looks like a nice first victim..."

      I find the thought that the only thing keeping everyone from murdering each other is a supreme being waving his finger at us from 2000 years ago saying "Do it and I'll spank you!" quite scary.

    15. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by DriedClexler · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Honestly, the only reason anyone ought to care what a politician thinks about creationism is if they decide what's taught in public schools. This is almost always a state matter. Your U.S. Congressman has bunk to do with it.

      Ah, yes, thanks for reminding us about the theory of federalism, on which our governing system is ostensibly based.

      Now I'm going to explain to you how it works in the real world.

      In the real world, the national government has become intimately involved in decisions at the state and local level, well beyond its enumerated powers. If nothing else, federal funding of local education has enabled it to threaten states with, "Don't want to do what we tell you? Then kiss your funding goodbye."

      Yes, the federal government does have significant control over what can be taught in public schools. Why do you think the Supreme Court ever rules on cirriculum issues? Why don't federal judges respond to all such lawsuits that make it to their level by saying, "Meh, state matter, go away"?

      So please don't act like Congressmen are powerless over what's taught in public schools.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    16. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by maxume · · Score: 1

      Personally, I wish they taught spalling.

      The current level of achievement is apelling.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    17. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      Isn't it rather scary that while scientists are getting excited over this 47 million year old fossil that there are fossils in Congress who will swear on a stack of Bibles that the earth is only 6000 years old and that evolution is bunk.

      Frankly, I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention and that there is no higher power to answer to. I suppose they think we're more "evolved" now.

      Yes! Lets go back to a time of morality such as the Salem witch hunts, or the inquisition!

      God fearing folk sure know how to be moral! Oh boy! We'll burn books, brand people with red hot iron warmed over those bonfires, it'll be swell!

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    18. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by maxume · · Score: 1

      Popsicle sticks are also an excellent source of philosophy.

      Not to mention, they come with a delicious treat.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    19. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by AshtangiMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      IIRC what Kucinich did is say that he believes in UFO's. I do to, I also happen to understand that UFO != Alien intelligence flying around and snatching people up. Though apparently many are not able to make that distinction. Should Kucinich pander to the ignorance of the masses by further explaining what he meant? Probably as a congressman he should, but on the other hand I would most likely have handled it in the same way. I saw a UFO the other night, and it was not until the next day that I learned what it was, and re-labled it appropriately: weather balloon.

    20. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by spun · · Score: 3, Informative

      Seeing a flying object that you can't identify is scientifically acceptable. That is all he said. Tim Russert asked him about it, he said that all he has seen was an object he couldn't identify.

      Dennis Kucinich is one of the only true liberals left in the Democratic party, and I would vote for him for president in a heartbeat. This UFO story gets blown all out of proportion by right wing loons in order to discredit him. Stop listening to loons.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    21. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by kandela · · Score: 1

      But if they don't believe in God, then what does swearing on a stack of Bibles prove?

      --
      Conservation of angular momentum makes the world go round.
    22. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by spun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Really? It's likely that Dennis is lying about seeing a flying object he couldn't identify? Because that is all he said. Didn't say aliens, didn't say anything except that it was flying, it was an object, and he couldn't identify it. Only people looking for an excuse to dismiss Kucinich give that story any credence.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    23. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by MosesJones · · Score: 1

      The last leader of the US had a religious driven morality and talked of "faith" and "belief" when he made his "moral" decisions. Osama Bin Laden has a belief in a higher power and talks of faith and belief when he talks about what he is doing.

      And you find it scary that some people think they should be accountable to themselves and humanity?

      --
      An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    24. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Boronx · · Score: 1

      Sure, in general, but some people I know, I'm glad they don't.

    25. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by wall0159 · · Score: 0, Troll

      "the only reason anyone ought to care what a politician thinks about creationism is if they decide what's taught in public schools..."

      Except that some bible-thumping politicians are trying to engineer the "end times"...

    26. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where the Hell is my -1 misinformed Christianity bashing mod? Seriously grow up already. (No I will not mod you down, I have better things to do with my mod points)

    27. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by TrekkieGod · · Score: 1

      Frankly, I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention and that there is no higher power to answer to.

      The problem with a higher being responsible for morality is that now you have to wonder why he's right. Is it specifically because he's a higher being? If so, is that because he simply knows better than the rest of us as a parent knows better than his child? How can you be sure that, even though He knows better, his goals don't involve screwing you? You're not even taking His word for it, you're taking the word of quite a bunch of people that came before you and weren't quite entirely consistent about what His wishes were.

      On the other hand, it could be a case of following his plans for you regardless of whether or not they are beneficial to you. But then, why are you doing that? Might makes right? Do what I say or you'll burn for eternity? That isn't consistent with our moral values (or the ones in the Bible...meek will inherit the Earth and whatnot)

      Which really brings us to the crux of the issue. The Christian morality of today isn't the Christian morality of yesterday, and as we as a society continue to reinterpret the Bible (or outright find excuses to ignore certain sections), even the people who claim they "answer to a higher power" when it comes to their morality really have no way of knowing if that's true. They assume it is because that's what their church currently teaches, but how do you know? For that matter, how do you know you chose the right religion? Even if you take just Christians there are enough differences between the denominations that they like to attack one another. I've heard people claim Catholics weren't Christians. I've heard people claim Mormons weren't Christians. The protestant denominations are plenty and have some very quantifiable differences (for example, are you predetermined to go to heaven, or do you have a choice in the matter?)

      In the end it all comes down to faith. You have it, I don't. I have no right to tell you that you're wrong, I have no proof that you are indeed wrong. You have no right to tell me that I'm wrong, you have no proof to offer me. Government needs to stay the hell out, take the stance that doesn't rely on religion to make their decisions (after all, you'd have to choose one first, which is akin to a State religion, which is forbidden in the constitution).

      Your own personal, additional morals are up to you (or in case you believe in that, up to your personal deity. You were still the one to decided to have faith, so it was up to you).

      I suppose they think we're more "evolved" now.

      If you take the view that God knows best and we are like children to him, that's actually more true than you'd care to admit. There's only so much children can be taught. Eventually they all reach a rebelling stage and have to make their own mistakes and learn from that. It's part of how they grow into adults and, depending on what you believe God wants for us, it could be quite pleasing to him to see us try to decide for ourselves what's right and wrong. We're growing up and becoming something more. On the other hand, if you believe his plans for us involves complete dependence on him for eternity, that's not much like a parent-child relationship. You want your children to move out of the house sometime right?

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    28. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by radtea · · Score: 1

      Frankly, I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention and that there is no higher power to answer to.

      Why? There is ample evidence from history that a belief in a higher power is used far more frequently to motivate atrocities than to prevent them.

      No one has ever been burned at the stake due to an excess of reasonableness on the part of their accusers. Faith, however frequently it has been used to opposed violence, has far more frequently and effectively been used to motivate it.

      You're also posing a false alternative: the choice is not between "just a convention" and "a higher power". Many people who do not believe in a higher power do believe that morality is well-justified on biological, evolutionary, psychological and sociological grounds. In fact, you'd have to be insane NOT to believe that, given the vast amount of evidence that humans are social primates whose basic needs include security of person and secure attachment, both of which are morally foundational.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    29. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1
      And above all, I find it worrying that people only behave ethically out of fear of having to answer to some "higher power".

      It's interesting though that they don't. Atheists and theists often come to the same conclusions on moral questions, even if the latter have to adjust their reading of their holy texts to what they actually feel is right. Dawkins describes this very well here: http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/09/dawkins_on_mora.html

    30. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like it or not, slavery, genocide, human sacrifice, rape, and other nasties are in the Bible. Genocide and human sacrifice if done for the "correct" reasons are Very Good Holy Things according to the Bible. In certain circumstances rape's perfectly peachy too. The Bible was used by preachers on both sides of the American Civil War to justify both stances on slavery so at best it's ambiguous, or more properly just depicted events and the prevailing morality of the Middle East in the Iron Age and on into early classical antiquity. You'd know all of this if you had even a passing familiarity with the Bible.

    31. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by FredFredrickson · · Score: 1

      Well the problem lies in defining ethics.

      Without some timeless being which created everything, there is no absolute truth, which means that morality is a construct of society, and reflects the values of that society.

      But as long as you're in line with society, you're probably ok- you don't need a higher being, right? I mean, we can all accept that killing is wrong, don't need Jesus to tell us that.

      But then again, I'm sure people thought slaves were just fine too, back in slavery days, since it was right in the eyes of society. You can see how morality and ethics change with society.

      Morality is a slippery subjective thing. Having a single point of truth makes it easier. Not neccessarily right, just easier.

      --
      Belief? Hope? Preference?The Existential Vortex
    32. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And therein likes the true nature of the beast. I sincerely doubt that most of these Congress Critters truly believe the things that they proclaim publicly. Most of them are just smart enough to understand that unfortunately they have no chance in hell of being elected in most any district in America if they do not claim allegiance to one of the generally accepted religions. If we want to change this it starts by helping the average citizens to think beyond the dogma into which they have been indoctrinated.

    33. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by TheHerk · · Score: 1

      Not what I intended at all. I'm saying that Dennis seeing a UFO is perfectly acceptable as long as he saw a UFO. If, however, a person says they did, but did not it is akin to many other fables. That's all.

      --
      -Blind faith runs into things.
    34. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      is seeing UFO's somehow more scientifically acceptable that an ID-proponent?

      Disclaimer: I can't stand Kucinich's liberal policies. He might be a great guy for all I know, but I think his politics suck. That said, yeah, I put UFOs and ID on entirely different planes. First, there's approximately zero chance that we're the only intelligent life. Second, science says you don't get to reject data just because it doesn't conveniently fit your hypothesis. I'm not saying that UFOs bearing visiting aliens exist, but we don't know of any hard reason why they couldn't.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    35. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God changed his opinions on morality?

      You're a weird Christian.

    36. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Isn't it rather scary that while scientists are getting excited over this 47 million year old fossil that there are fossils in Congress who will swear on a stack of Bibles that the earth is only 6000 years old and that evolution is bunk.

      Really? Which representative in congress believes the Earth is 6000 years old?

    37. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by deets101 · · Score: 1

      I do to, I also happen to understand that UFO != Alien intelligence flying around and snatching people up.

      Well, some people do believe that. I am going to apply the same thinking that is applied to Christians. I am going to find a small group that has radical views on this, in this case those who say that they have been "probed" by aliens, and apply as generally as possible.
      So, I guess you're saying that you've been probed by aliens.

      --

      --
      My parents went to Slashdot and all I got was this lousy sig.
    38. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-60.htm

      Obviously this isn't Kucinich himself and has validity only as testimony, but, if the person who was with him when the "encounter" (or whatever) took place says this, it hardly seems fair to blame your political foes with "blowing it all out of proportion." Is Shirly Maclaine a "right wing loon" (I know nothing about her, other than she is the godmother of Kucinich's daughter)?

      Watching the Kucinich answer (youtube), he doesn't deny the above account, and responds by saying how many others Americans (including Carter) have ALSO seen UFOs.

      I know you like Kucinich and that's fine (though I disagree with him on almost everything, I strongly admire his principles), but you might want to be a tad more objective about this particular point.

    39. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Slavery still is present in the NT. Women still aren't seen as full humans and must obey men. Besides, what is the crucification of Jesus, if not human sacrifice? (Sure, god-as-human-but-still-human)

      That "NT is better" is just BS.

    40. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      You are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to define "UFO" as the sum of the meanings of the words in the full designation: "Unidentified Flying Objects". And what qualifies? Anything that falls outside of the universe of "Identified Flying Objects". That isn't something subject to "belief", because it is conditional on the knowledge of the person making the determination:

      Reporter: "General, what were those lights in the sky?"
      General: "We don't know."

      Does that mean that no one, no being, has knowledge of what those lights really were? By your interpretation, saying "I believe in UFO's" would be equivalent to "I believe in SWS's - sky without sun". No shit - it's called "night", and it happens on a roughly 24 hour cycle.

      Now let's take "UFO" the way it is understood by the electorate: alien space ships. Kucinich is a politician, so he knew damned well what the meaning of his remarks were to the public. He didn't mean "I believe there are objects that have flown in the sky that we haven't been able to identify."

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    41. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      So? There is no evidence that there is. And if there is, there is no way we could know what "morality" he expects us to behave by. There is no reason that his standard of morality should match up with what we consider to be ethical.

      Likewise, there is no evidence that there ISN'T.

      I'm an agnostic. I don't know if there is, or isn't a god/God/whatever--and furthermore, I don't think that we CAN know that. I view devout atheists as I do devout evangelicals...they're basing it all on their feelings--they have no proof that there is no god...after all, what could possibly constitute such proof?

      Secondly, IF you believe in a religion, then you typically believe in a founding member, or members who are divinely inspired to reveal what true morality is. Quite simple.

    42. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      People respond differently. Duh--this is as simple and obvious as it gets, so I don't know why I even wrote it :-)

      An early Greek philosopher (I unfortunately don't remember which at the second...will try to find) divided people into groups based on what activities they found pleasureable. Those who found pleasuring from having, those who found pleasure from power, pleasure from sensual delight, pleasure from ethical action, etc.

      In your own life, I'm sure you've run into plenty of people who don't think twice about breaking the law/rules/doing bad things if they think they won't get caught. And I'm sure you've run into people that are terrified of breaking rules.

      I guess I view things through utilitarian bent. As long as the final outcome is good, who cares about the process (at least in this situation). If I do the right thing, who cares if I had to ponder it in my mind or did it reflexively...it was a good action and the outcome was good. If you do good things because you're afraid of being punished or if you do good things because it gives you pleasure, is one REALLY better than the other?

      I would say definitely not.

    43. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by halivar · · Score: 1

      Citation, please. Name one significant school curriculum issue the US Supreme Court has ruled on.

    44. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Human sacrifice sure didn't. It's glorified in the Old testament, and in the New gets expanded out to ritual cannibalism. The Bible makes pro-slavery statements in the New Testament (Ephesians 6:5-9 and 1st Timothy 6:1-2) again reflecting prevailing views in that time and place. Genocide too remains...the Holocaust didn't come from nothing, you know. Jesus had a hard time with Judas, the Pharisees, and the temple priests and that was lapped up by Genuine Christians and used as an excuse to roast Jews on a stick. How about you read "On the Jews and Their Lies" by that Very Genuine Christian Martin Luther sometime? That is, after you read your Bible for the first time.

    45. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Which would you consider more noble, ethics that I follow because I have decided that it is genuinely the right and proper thing to do by my own reasoning, or ethics that I follow because I am afraid of being punished for my transgressions in either this or the next life? I'd argue the former; an ethical system that derives its power from fear of the whip is not an ethical system at all, its slavish servitude.

      There is a problem with your line of thinking. Let me give a hypothetical example to explain.

      First, nearly all religions say that cheating and lying are wrong, period. No excuse. Even if you won't get caught or you think you are doing it for good reason, they are wrong.

      Now let's say there is an election and you are an election official. You fully support Candidate X and know with all your heart that he will lead the country in the right direction. The election comes down to your district and your candidate has lost your district by a very small margin. You have some test ballots laying around that are identical to the real thing. You can place these in the box and no one would be the wiser. There is no chance of you getting caught. Do you stuff the ballot box?

      Of course, religion based ethics say no. But what about your own, non-religious ethics?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    46. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      I find the thought that the only thing keeping everyone from murdering each other is a supreme being waving his finger at us from 2000 years ago saying "Do it and I'll spank you!" quite scary.

      Nobody thinks that, and quite frankly I view it as ignorant to claim so. (ok I won't say NOBODY because there are people out there that believe literally anything...but next to nobody)

      Look at many cultures around the world that believe in extreme (by my view) punishments such as gang-rape, murder. Many, MANY other cultures allow the virtual rape of children (through arranged child marriages). If morality was as simple as you make it out to be, shouldn't everyone in the world have arrived at similar conclusions eons ago?

    47. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. God changed people and therefore the way he related to them and the amount of cr*p he had to put up with in order to get what he wanted done(without violating free will).

      Indeed I am a weird Christian. I am a logical Christian who has read the bible, so I can answer stuff like this. Most normal Christians just know stuff like slavery/genocide is not OK anymore, but can't answer why. Christian moral standards are almost universally regarded as good - even if Christians often fail to keep them. This is simply because they are good.

      You are bashing something you do not understand. You are free to reject Christianity, but quit with the misinformed bashing. It doesn't add anything to any discussion and makes you look bad.

      I am (still) not the one who modded you down, and I suspect it will be reversed by meta-mod anyway.

    48. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by DriedClexler · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here you go. Issue: teaching of ... creationism.

      Edwards v. Aguillard

      In the early 1980s, the Louisiana legislature passed a law titled the "Balanced Treatment for Creation-Science and Evolution-Science in Public School Instruction Act". The act did not require teaching either evolution or creationism as such, but did require that when evolutionary science was taught, so-called creation science had to be taught as well. ... the State appealed to the Supreme Court. ... In 1987 the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the Louisiana act was unconstitutional, because the law was specifically intended to advance a particular religion.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    49. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by zehaeva · · Score: 1

      I don't believe that everyone does, I would find it scary if that were the case. on the point of many cultures that have extreme punishments, it is no different in Borneo than it was in Europe in the middle ages. And don't forget that it was standard in Christian society at one point in time to allow children to marry the moment they could have children. At some point the legal age of marriage in some states (in the US) was 13 (with parents consent).

      I don't mean to make morality simple but to simply illustrate that to base ones moral compass solely on the threat of a supreme being is ludicrous at best. And the denial of said being leaves you with no morals at all doubly so.

    50. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by khallow · · Score: 1

      Frankly, I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention and that there is no higher power to answer to. I suppose they think we're more "evolved" now.

      Even depending on one or more "higher powers" for your morality is a convention with widely varying actions and results. For example, do you pray facing Mecca, five times a day? Are you born again, accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? Do you believe that the Pope, through the action of the Holy Spirit, is incapable of error? Do you only eat the flesh of animals that have been killed cleanly without bloodshed and under the supervision of a rabbi? Do you wear the five articles of faith? These are examples of moral behavior mandated by religions that worship God. More generally, do you believe that laws and rules for those who share your morality and related beliefs should be the same for those who do not share your morality?

      The problem here is there are many moralities that stem from higher powers, even as the above examples from the same, single higher power. Given that there are so many of them and that moral codes of conduct can be in disagreement even among those who follow the same belief, I see no reason to challenge the assertion that moral is a convention.

    51. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by spun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are quoting a story from an 'Extraterrestrial Politics' site? Seriously? Don't you think they might be a little biased?

      Shirley McClain is a left wing loon. I would take anything she says with a huge grain of salt. Here's a transcript of the question Russert asked:

      RUSSERT: Shirley MacLaine writes in her new book that you sighted a UFO over her home in Washington state, that you found the encounter extremely moving, that it was a triangular craft, silent and hovering, that you felt a connection to your heart and heard directions in your mind. Now, did you see a UFO?

      KUCINICH: Uh, I did. And the rest of the account. It was an unidentified flying object, OK? It's like, it's unidentified. I saw something. Now, to answer your question. I'm moving my, and I'm also going to move my campaign office to Roswell, New Mexico, and another one in Exeter, New Hampshire, OK? And also, you have to keep in mind that Jimmy Carter saw a UFO, and also that more people in this country have seen UFOs than I think approve of George Bush's presidency.

      I stand by my position that this is being blown out of proportion by people who don't agree with Kucinich's politics.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    52. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't mean to make morality simple but to simply illustrate that to base ones moral compass solely on the threat of a supreme being is ludicrous at best.

      Yes, and as I said, I don't think anybody in the world has a moral compass that is 100% from religious belief and 0% from their own personal thoughts. Again, if you can give me some examples of people who have no moral compass separate from religion, I'd be interested in seeing/reading about that...I just don't believe they exist.

      In fact, the point you make in your first para--for instance, looking at morality of actions in Christian society's in the past offers a perfect example of this. SOME morality may derive from Christianity, but other does not. Other parts change.

      I think any theologian today (and most in the past) would argue that the bible is not a book of rules. That's why christians don't keep kosher (and this was an "innovation" in morality VERY early on in the history of Christianity). The new testament is largely a group of moral teachings and lessons. Leave out the mystical crap like revelations (as Thomas Jefferson did in his red letter bible) and you have moral teachings that are standalone if you will. Actually, the Red Letter bible might be interesting to you (I mean interesting in the sense that it exists, not that you should read it and be enlightened :-P) -- Jefferson went through and got rid of the mystical junk, the miracles, even God, and what was left was the moral and ethical teachings of Jesus as a man.

      Despite what many people in these comments have claimed, morality is NOT simple and it is NOT full of black and white simple decisions. We need all the help we can get...this, IMHO, is why we have philosophers and religions.

    53. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by inasity_rules · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1. Slavery was still present in the New Testament world.
      2. Wives submit to your husbands and husbands submit to your wives. You're taking other passages out of context to read other meanings into them. Stop it.
      3. A sacrifice to end all sacrifices where the one sacrificed come back from the dead? You got a problem with this? Seriously?
      Reject christianity? sure. Bash it ignorantly? You'd be stupid to do that.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    54. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by halivar · · Score: 1

      Hey! That's pretty good.

      Now, the bonus question: when was the last time the US senate imposed curriculum requirements on states in contravention to a US Supreme Court ruling on said curriculum?

    55. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      The only relevant part of the article I linked to (and indeed, the only part I mentioned) was the Shirley Maclaine part, which as you quote, was ALSO mentioned by Russert in the debate, and not at all denied by Kucinich.

      Russert also points out that Maclaine is Kucinich's godmother.

      I have no idea if she's reputable at all or not. Kucinch made her his child's godmother, so it would seem HE thought so. I also think his lack of denial of what she said is perhaps telling.

      In any case, this just boils down to junk...neither of us know enough about the reality of the situation (not knowing Kucinich or Maclaine personally, nor having been there when the event happened) so it hardly seems important to keep discussing this.

      Cheers.

    56. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by khallow · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying that UFOs bearing visiting aliens exist, but we don't know of any hard reason why they couldn't.

      Other than no hard evidence of aliens or their artifacts on Earth? Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

    57. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by spun · · Score: 1

      Heh? Kucinich explicitly denies the rest of the account when he states, "And the rest of the account. It was an unidentified flying object, OK? It's like, it's unidentified. I saw something." Note that he does not say anything about triangles or hearts or voices.

      I just want to put that out there so we don't leave anyone with the mistaken impression that Kucinich said he heard voices from aliens. I know you wouldn't want that.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    58. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have often been shocked at what others find moral or amoral.

      For example, a Christian woman I work with is having an affair with an ex-husband while her current husband is away, justifying it by saying that they're still married in God's eyes. Meanwhile, gays will ruin marriage.

      My point being, while I don't need an invisible man or fear of my ancestors to make me choose right over wrong, I honestly think some people do. Without God, that woman would probably be knifing anyone she disagreed with.

    59. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Heh? Kucinich explicitly denies the rest of the account when he states, "And the rest of the account. It was an unidentified flying object, OK? It's like, it's unidentified. I saw something."

      Watch the youtube video of what he actually says.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSRWRbuMqyc

      He's how I would transcribe what he says:

      RUSSERT: "... Did you see a UFO?"

      KUCINICH:"Uh, I.. I did. And, uh, the rest of the account--...hold it, I.. I didn't.. I.. it was unidentified flying object, ok? It's like, it's unidentified. I saw something" (Kucinich then goes on to make jokes and mention how many other people have seen UFOs)

      Pretty standard for how people actually talk (breaking up clauses, etc). I don't think it's at all obvious from actually watching and hearing him, that he's denying the rest of the account. I would have expected him to do so in much more clear terms if that was really his intent.

      So, as before, we basically don't know... My point in all of this was just that, contrary to your claims that it was a conspiracy of "right wing loons" to slander Kucinich, that the most statements from anyone we have come from his daughter's godmother...

    60. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again reflecting the prevailing views(laws) of the time. Christians are encouraged to be law abiding. The Holocaust? WTH? That was not caused by Christians? Godwin'd. There is a strong anti-Jew movement both within an without the church. You make the mistake of thinking genuine Christians claim to be perfect. They are Christians precisely because they understand they are not perfect. Quit with the misinformed bashing. By the way, ritual cannibalism? Ever heard of a metaphor? You're so ignorant of Christianity that if you weren't serious, you'd be funny.

    61. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you, could anyone please tell me why it is more logical for me to be 'moral' in any sense rather than just adopting a Machiavellian outlook?

      You know, pretending to care but really doing whatever I can get away with and exploiting all those I say I care about? In the absence of anything transcendental that might hold me accountable, this is clearly the logical option.

    62. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Funny

      Personally, I wish they taught spalling.

      I disagree. While the generation of material fragments is certainly interesting and has some practical applications (notably in armour and weapons designed to break it) it's still a somewhat specialist and niche subject.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    63. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Trick question. The Senate is always going to phrase a law to technically work around whatever the latest court rulings are. I don't think it's helpful to ask whether there's been such an overt power struggle that the Senate would openly defy the Supreme Court.

      Instead, I'll answer the question, "When was the last time the Senate imposed cirriculum requirements on local public schools?" and my immediate answer is the NCLB. For extra credit, I would note that it's arguably in contravention of 1990s rulings on restrictions of federal power.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    64. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No joke, I know a Catholic girl who refuses to use all forms of birth control, except the 'rhythm method', which has apparently been deemed OK by the powers that be. I always ask her why she thinks it's OK to go against her churches teachings on pre-martial sex, but will not use birth control? It makes absolutely no sense to me. She says she asks for forgivness...

    65. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You are trying to define "UFO" as the sum of the meanings of the words in the full designation: "Unidentified Flying Objects". And what qualifies? Anything that falls outside of the universe of "Identified Flying Objects".

      What about objects lying on the ground? You fail logic.

      P.S. yo mama.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    66. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Read some of Steve Pinker's recent papers. Morality is not exactly hard-coded in our genes but certain propensities might be.

    67. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by linzeal · · Score: 1

      That is because we are human and more than likely our social norms and conventions including mores are at least in part genetic.

    68. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by halivar · · Score: 1

      I will agree with you on NCLB contravening restrictions on federal power. I will disagree, however, that NCLB had any effect on the content of regional school curricula, since teachers are encouraged to handle NCLB standardized tests as separate curricula (by rote memorization to improve test scores for more funding). It certainly has had no effect on those states still pushing for teaching creationism in school.

    69. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Which is more important to me... the shit I took last night or you? The answer... the shit. You're useless to me. If had a choice between taking a good shit and your existence, based on your premises, I would be a fool to not choose the shit.

    70. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Rycross · · Score: 1

      Except the morality of God changes along with the morality of scientists. Back in the slavery days, a lot of slave owners were "good Christians" who felt that they were doing black men a favor by giving them room and board. The Christian bible doesn't exactly condemn slavery. It also encourages a lot of other things that are seen by our society as immoral. But Christians just pull the "Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish law, so we don't have to follow it anymore," despite the fact that Jesus himself said that it was still in effect. In that way, they are able to adapt their religious beliefs to match the larger societies.

      In short, if God is supposed to provide an absolute moral frame of reference, then he's failing miserably. And we seem to be doing better without God's absolute morality than with.

    71. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      What morality... that's just some sort of oppressive construct you've created to feel better. Power is morality in all systems, if you have no power over me then you are useless and have no rights.

    72. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by zehaeva · · Score: 1

      While I do agree that not many people's moral compass is 100% one way or another I know more than a few who went to seminary and do take the bible as a list of rules, as the direct word of god. I know many more who take genesis at face value and believe it word for word.

      While they do take away some morality that is separate from religion they firmly believe that anyone who does not believe in a supreme being are completely morally corrupt.

      They are a minority but sadly I can't help but see the push of intelligent design into schools as a growth of this way of life.

      And don't get me started on mormons. It is amazing at how fully a human can believe such things.

      I've spoken with many different denominations, I guess I'm one of the few who will speak with them when they come down my street, and many are willing to be moderate in their thoughts and beliefs. I have spoken to too many that take a 2000 year old book very literally. It is that which I find scary.

      ~z

    73. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Lars+T. · · Score: 0, Troll

      C'mon now, slashdot always has these remarks, but you know what? NBC nightly news reported this find last night - the epitome of mainstream - and there was no mention of the Bible or controversy over the validity of evolution, none at all.

      More proof that the liberal media is trying to force evilution on us.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    74. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      I have never understood this type of statement... "I find it worrying that people only behave ethically out of fear of having to answer to some "higher power".

      Morality is based on power, always. It's God, or god, or social, or individual, or psychological, or whatever... but it's always power. If there is no power over me then why would I do anything other then behave in a way that brings me pleasure? I might say "behave ethically" but why would I actually do so, other then possibly fear of some power punishing me for my actions?

    75. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Rycross · · Score: 1

      s/scientists/society/g. Brain fart.

    76. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      I've spoken with many different denominations, I guess I'm one of the few who will speak with them when they come down my street, and many are willing to be moderate in their thoughts and beliefs. I have spoken to too many that take a 2000 year old book very literally. It is that which I find scary.

      Ok, on that I can 100% agree with you :-)

    77. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Back in the slavery days, a lot of slave owners were "good Christians" who felt that they were doing black men a favor by giving them room and board.

      Take a look at Zimbabwe, Congo and The Ivory Coast and you could conclude they had a point.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    78. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by rantingkitten · · Score: 1

      Honestly, the only reason anyone ought to care what a politician thinks about creationism is if they decide what's taught in public schools. This is almost always a state matter. Your U.S. Congressman has bunk to do with it.

      I dunno. If someone is so far deluded that they're unable to accept modern science, listen to experts, or even look at the facts themselves and get educated, and choose instead to believe whatever half-baked nonsense is cooked up by interest groups because it aligns with their pre-conceived ideas... is that really someone you want in a position to make decisions in government?

      Maybe creationism itself doesn't affect anything at the federal level but someone who honestly believes it is saying something about their intellectual integrity and honesty.

      --
      mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
    79. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      ""Honestly, the only reason anyone ought to care what a politician thinks about creationism is if they decide what's taught in public schools.""

      I completely disagree with that statement. While I have no problem with a politician holding deep spiritual or religious views, when those views selectively filter out scientific fact, their entire mental facility should be called into question.

      If someone lets their spiritual/religious beliefs override the truth, then they are clearly should not be allowed to make any decisions on behalf of the people.

      Many spiritual/religious people are able to balance a belief in God with an acceptance of scientific fact. To not be able to do this, shows a profound lack of either intelligence or logic. And even worse, likely shows that the person has the ability to be at ease with contradictory policy.

      Do you really want a politician in office who will support contradictory policy? That is precisely how a government stagnates. As ours has done for quite some time.

    80. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that there has a been a long list of well respected people in history who have reported seeing something unidentified in the sky.

      President Jimmy Carter, various astronauts, tons of military personnel at all levels, etc..

      Most of them just say "I have no idea what it was", only a few come out and say "that is not from this earth".

    81. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by mjeffers · · Score: 1

      I might say "behave ethically" but why would I actually do so, other then possibly fear of some power punishing me for my actions?

      Off the top of my head:
      1) Reputation: Behaving ethically benefits me societally. People are more likely to treat me well and are more likely to respond when I need something from them if they view me as being a fair ethical in my conduct. If I'm widely viewed as a liar or a thief, I'm going to face challenges in cooperating with others.
      2) Self-esteem: I view myself as a "good person" and like to be percieved of as a good person by others.
      3) Desire for social order: I think its better for all of us to live in a society where, by and large, we are more trusting and helpful than distrusting and back-stabbing.

    82. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So somehow Germany was packed full of Lutherans and Catholics up to World War II, mysteriously disappeared for about five years, then miraculously reappeared? WTH, indeed. Nobody is making the claim that Christians are perfect. The 2000 year historical record of the activities of Christians is at least as breathtakingly bloody and gruesome as any other peoples. I'm rejecting the claim that there's anything special about the Bible and that it is some superior source of morality--it clearly is the product of humanity, written over the centuries by people who belonged to and were influenced by the society of the day and it's morality. Some of those writers were good, some indifferent, and more than a few were genuinely sick and depraved individuals. With all the time devoted to genocide, rape, murder, slavery, and other depravity it's been a greatly used source for the defense of actions most people today would find immoral. And yes Christians do engage in ritualized cannibalism. Some groups even go so far to believe that in the rite of the Holy Communion the "essence" of the wine and bread is literally transformed into the blood and body of Jesus. Said wine and bread, the "essence" literally Jesusified or just symbolically, is then eaten by Christians. That is plain as day ritualized cannibalism. Christians weren't content to stop there either. For centuries Christians fought wars against each other and tortured people over the "correct" way to "eat" Jesus. Well, that was when they ran out of Jews to burn or "heathens" to lovingly convert at the point of a sword, spear, or bayonet, all the while quoting Jesus' words: "None come to the Father except through me." Seriously, pick up a history book, read your damn Bible or take Christian Theology 101 so somebody can teach you about it. Or maybe (I can't believe I'd ever suggest this) go to church sometime.

    83. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 1

      a supreme being waving his finger at us from 2000 years ago saying "Do it and I'll spank you!"

      You should at least cite the source of your dogma.


      *by the way, I'm not trolling you, I love that flick too.

    84. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by zehaeva · · Score: 1

      Its not a source of my Dogma *ahem*, it just happens to neatly coincide with it ^___^

    85. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the old testament was a pre-release, a beta.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    86. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Xtifr · · Score: 1

      Possibly because you're smart enough to reason that if everyone acted that way, we'd all suffer in the long run? Possibly because you're descended from a long line of social apes who derive pleasure from the pleasure of others due to empathic circuitry in your brain which allows you to model the experiences of others who are, to some degree, similar to you, and therefore you can take pleasure in being part of a functioning society? Which circuitry in turn appears to have evolved because cooperation is such a powerful survival trait for a species?

      Sorry, but I find those who think morality is all about power and fear to be nearly as clueless and misguided as those who think it's all about Big Daddy In the Sky. What logical reason (from an individual's viewpoint) is there for reproduction? Very little, and yet, for some reason, the desire to reproduce (or at least to engage in activities which are related to reproduction) is extremely powerful in almost all of us. Likewise (although more recently evolved and therefore much less powerful) the urge to cooperate and interact socially, and treat others as you would like to be treated. Although I suppose you could argue that that boils down to the power of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. Still, I think the carrot of the desire for pleasure is quite distinct from the stick of the fear of punishment you cite.

    87. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "1. Slavery was still present in the New Testament world."

      It was an unnecessary evil then, too. If the Bible is supposed to come from and be a higher moral authority, shouldn't we hold it to higher standards?

      "2. Wives submit to your husbands and husbands submit to your wives. You're taking other passages out of context to read other meanings into them. Stop it."

      Yes, please stop it. The bolded part of your statement is not anywhere in the Bible. "Wives submit to your husbands" is: Colossians 3:18-19 and Ephesians 5:22-29. Look it up yourself.

      "3. A sacrifice to end all sacrifices where the one sacrificed come back from the dead? You got a problem with this? Seriously?"

      Not much of a sacrifice. God knew he'd get his get out of Hell free card--maybe Jesus didn't at the time, but God did--one of them funky nonsensical definitional one==three things in Christian Theology. According to at least some Christians, either because they didn't know about it or they hurt God's ego he's also planning on sending non-believers to an eternity of the same torture. He only put Himself/Jesus there a piddling three days.

      "Reject christianity? sure. Bash it ignorantly? You'd be stupid to do that."

      How about reject christianity and bash it knowledgably instead?

    88. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 1
      Yep, me too. There are so many good nuggets in that movie, another favorite of mine being:

      I have issues with anyone who treats faith as a burden instead of a blessing. You people don't celebrate your faith; you mourn it.

    89. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Without some timeless being which created everything, there is no absolute truth

      There might not be a basis to absolute ethics/morals, but there still would be absolute truth. 2+2=4 is an absolute truth, as is the basic logical "laws of thought", and by extension basic math and logic.

      When we get to ethics and morals though, which is your point, you may also be wrong. Ethics and morals may be an evolved property of our species to increase our ability to survive, breed, and prosper. It isn't hard to picture two groups of early human ancestors, one a group of opertunistic sociopaths, and the other with some loose "moral" code. Which would be more able to survive? This can be seen as being akin to the evolution of our particular brand of primate ancestors being social animals, and not primarily solitary.

      If living in a group is useful, then a set of rules allowing groups to run smoothly would also be useful.

      If we accept the above, then it wouldn't be impossible to describe these "descriptive" ethics in which we live. This could probably be boiled down to the "if p, then q" syllogism. My personal take (taken with a HUGE grain of salt, like a boulder of salt) is that if we accept the subject as human (i.e. like us), we then accord them as being like us, empathy. The difference between human morals is who we accept as being fellow humans at any given time, but the respect given to those in the exclusive "human" club remains the same.

      What your taking about is that God allows us to have "normative" ethics, or "prescriptive" ethics (in the "thou ought" form), which may be true. But saying that this can be the only source is wrong. Normative ethics existed long before God, and never was the sole domain of various supernatural sources. If God is a prerequisite for normative ethics, then Kant must be God, since he belched out the Categorical Imperative using nothing but logical authority, not divine.

      As an amusing side note, if my salt-laden idea is right, then the Ten Commandments of the Judeo-Christian realm would be a good illustration. When it says "Thou Shall Not Kill" (or "Murder" more literally) it never meant that as a universal clause, it meant it as "Though Shall Not Kill Your Fellow Jews, Unless They Wander From Your Definition of What Being Jewish Is". "Thou Shall Not Covet Your Neighbors Wife" turns into "Though Shall not Covet a Fellow Jew's Wife, but Those Slave Chicks Who May or May Not Be Married to Infidels Are Fine". Even now we have a hard time actually making these commandments actually followable, we expanded them a bit, but "Though Shall Not Murder" has turned into "Though Shall Not Murder, Unless You Have a Good Reason, or the State Says its Fine".

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    90. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Without some timeless being which created everything, there is no absolute truth, which means that morality is a construct of society, and reflects the values of that society.

      It's unclear to me how a creator of the Universe means that there is any "absolute truth". If this being says "stoning someone to death is ethical" and I disagree, why is their view the absolute truth, and I wrong?

      Having a single point of truth makes it easier. Not neccessarily right, just easier.

      Except it isn't, because no one can know what this being says, and no one agrees. You still have people who disagree, but with the additional problem that the argument is now reduced to "It's wrong because God says so", "No it's right because God says so" - and logic, reason and evidence are thrown out the window. On top of that is the problem that people can justify all sorts of actions that you and I would consider greatly immoral, believing that their actions are justified in the eyes of God.

      People don't agree on all sorts of subjective matters, such as what food is most tasty, or which music is best. This doesn't mean that we can't have meaningful discussions at all (e.g., it doesn't mean it makes sense to claim that the sound of banging one's head against the wall is as good a piece of music as that of Mozart's). No one would claim that we need to invent some being of "absolute truth" by which to judge how good food and music are - especially when that we have no idea what this made up being says on the matter.

    91. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Omestes · · Score: 1

      they have no proof that there is no god...after all, what could possibly constitute such proof?

      I have no proof that there isn't an invisible fairy floating three feet from my left hand. There is no way I could ever prove it either, since she has no mass, gives off no scent, heat, or has any other visible effect on the universe. By your logic, you must also be an invisible fairy agnostic, since you can never disprove it by how I constructed my argument. \

      You must also be an FSM agnostic, a Shiva angostic, a Scientology agnostic, etc...

      So... that nitpick out of the way...

      if the proposition of God is unprovable, then it isn't a proposition. There, then, isn't anything to believe or disbelieve. If there is no physical manifestation which can carry a truth value, then its existence is completely superfluous. This is why I consider myself an atheist, if God existed, he wouldn't matter one bit, since there isn't any evidence (and thus effect) that could sustain his presence in the actual universe. If there was, he would become the realm of proofs, and thus would be disprovable.

      Read up on falsifiability.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    92. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Someone thinks they read Nietzsche. Might want to brush up on contemporary >thoughts on the matter.

    93. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Likewise, there is no evidence that there ISN'T.

      I'm not sure how that is relevant to my post. I am not claiming that such a being doesn't exist - perhaps there does exist, for example, a giant almighty elephant who tells us that raping women with elephant tusks is ethical. But it was the OP who suggested that we should believe in a higher power, and it's worrying that we don't.

      Nowhere am I claiming that people believe that no higher power exists. I suspect the only reason you posted is so you could make a tired straw man atheist rant:

      I'm an agnostic. I don't know if there is, or isn't a god/God/whatever--and furthermore, I don't think that we CAN know that. I view devout atheists as I do devout evangelicals...

      I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God. I'm also an agnostic, in the sense that I don't know if there is a God.

      Trying to plead "but we can't prove it isn't" is irrelevant - are you a theist? No, neither am I. Do you believe in unicorns "because there's no evidence they don't exist"? No, neither do I.

      In fact, I didn't even identity as an atheist in my post, so your attempt to drag up a boring atheist-agnostic-definitions-debate is completely off topic. Unless you're actually an agnostic theist, neither of us believe in that morality comes from a higher power, so I fail to see what your disagreement with me is.

    94. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Omestes · · Score: 1

      But then why did Jesus, himself, claim that the old laws still applied? Jesus was a jew, in more than just the ethnic sense.

      It took Paul to go muck it up to sell it to the infidels.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    95. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Would you really? I'd like to think I wouldn't. I suppose it's consistent if we take a more general interpretation of "pleasure". It wouldn't please me, say, to torture small animals or rape people - even if I might get pleasure out of the act itself, that would be weighed down by the stress of abusing someone.

      I'm not clear exactly what you are saying - firstly you list other reasons, including psychological, but then talk about fear of being punished, I'm not sure how that would apply to psychological reasons?

      But my point is that even if people don't fear a higher power, that doesn't mean that they suddenly go out raping people - whether that's empathy, self-interest, or upbringing, hard-wired evolutionary instinct, or whatever. If any theist is really claiming that the only thing that stops him committing such acts is fear of God, then yes, I do find it worrying. Although it's more likely that in practice they wouldn't, in which case their claim is bogus anyway.

      And if the theist acknowledges that other things would stop a person from doing such things - whether it's that they wouldn't want to, or fear of other things that you list - then again, there claim that we need to believe in a higher power is also disproven.

    96. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how that is relevant to my post.

      Perhaps you should reread your/my post--it was in direct reply to your statement that "There is no evidence that there is."

      I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God. I'm also an agnostic, in the sense that I don't know if there is a God.

      I'm not so sure you can be both...I don't think that's internally consistent.

      Trying to plead "but we can't prove it isn't" is irrelevant - are you a theist? No, neither am I. Do you believe in unicorns "because there's no evidence they don't exist"? No, neither do I.

      Actually, that's what agnosticism is--what I described is basically the definition. Belief that the existence of deity is unknowable (either in the positive or the negative). As for unicorns--I've seen no evidence that they exist today, but it's certainly possible that horses with a horn--or another similar animal--existed at one point, yes. Not sure why that is silly?

      In fact, I didn't even identity as an atheist in my post, so your attempt to drag up a boring atheist-agnostic-definitions-debate is completely off topic

      Sheesh, it's not all about you--I never claimed you were an atheist or even thought you were! If you were offended by something in my post, I apologize. When you post on forums, one expects replies..I'm sure you did when you posted, so why angered when you get them?

      Unless you're actually an agnostic theist, neither of us believe in that morality comes from a higher power, so I fail to see what your disagreement with me is.

      Where did I say I disagreed with you? In fact, I started my post with "Likewise" which is generally considered to be a word of AGREEMENT!

      Actually, the one part of your post I did disagree with, and explicated in mine was: "And if there is, there is no way we could know what "morality" he expects us to behave by. "

      That's the simple part..if you believe in a deity and a religion, then typically the founders/important members of that religion are believed to have been divinely inspired. They offer a window of understanding to the divine. That's why the ancient Romans called their preists (and even the Pope today) Pontifex...bridge builders. They build a bridge (of understanding, etc) from the divine to the world around us. To give another example, some Islamic theologians have posited the existence of a book called "The Mother Book" (Um al-Kitab in Arabic). The mother book is basically a floating celestial entity that has always existed and will always exist...somewhat like God. Things like the Qur'an are bits and pieces of the Um al-Kitab revealed to humanity. Again, just like the Roman view of the clergy, Muhammad acted as a conduit through which divine knowledge flowed, into a form humanity could understand. THAT'S how deity-believers believe their knowledge is both human and divine.

    97. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by maxume · · Score: 1

      Ya know, I actually worried someone would come back with that. I wish I could prove it.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    98. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Xiroth · · Score: 1

      Of course, religion based ethics say no. But what about your own, non-religious ethics?

      I can't speak for the GP, but my own non-religious ethics would definitely say no. Using disproportionate influence gained in a manner that is against the agreed-upon rules to do something that affects those who followed the rules and would not want that outcome is not just - when there is general agreement that the rules are appropriate, then breaking them is not the right thing to do, no matter what you believe will result. Unless the rules are clearly unjust, work within them for change.

      Followers of Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) religions do what they feel is the good thing to do. Good and evil - morality - requires an absolute arbiter, which they have in their god. I do not believe in a universal arbiter, therefore I do not believe in good or evil. Instead, I see actions as right or wrong - justice as best we can see it with our imperfect understanding. We may not get it right every time, but in accepting that our notion of justice is imperfect we have the capacity to learn and improve.

    99. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, so you believe slavery was just supposed to magically disappear? Keep smoking that stuff. The "endorsement" of slavery is 100% submit yourself to authority (against which there is no law) as a means of being a witness.

      Hmm... Had a funny translation at hand. In any case, you (oh, how conveniently) forgot to read Collosians 3:19.

      Your miss-understanding of the concept of Hell is not my problem. You probably won't even see this message, so I don't know why I bother. Fact is, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

      Before you bash Christianity again, sit down and objectively (if you are capable of that) read the new testament in context.

    100. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether you have a point or not, your first two points are outrageously, flagrantly dishonest, and must be exposed as such.

      1. Slavery was still present in the New Testament world.

      And some New Testament texts openly encourage slaves' submission to, or turning a blind eye to, their disenfranchisement; e.g. 1 Corinthians 7, 1 Timothy 6, Titus 2.

      2. Wives submit to your husbands and husbands submit to your wives. You're taking other passages out of context to read other meanings into them.

      Ahem. The exact passage is, "Women are to their own husbands in the same way as to the lord. Because the man is the head of the woman, and so also Christ is the head of the Church ... Men, love your wives." That kind of thing is standard fare for the time; and pointing that out would have been a perfectly honest rebuttal. Instead, you made a claim that Paul advocated a symmetrical, mutual relationship.

      So, same situation again: you're trying to pretend that disagreeable stuff just isn't there. If you want to advocate a hardcore New-Testament-based Christianity, you have a few options: out of (a) living with the fact that the early saints weren't 100%, er, saintly by present-day standards, or (b) trying to cover it up, you have chosen the latter.

      3. A sacrifice to end all sacrifices where the one sacrificed come back from the dead? You got a problem with this?
      Reject christianity? sure. Bash it ignorantly? You'd be stupid to do that.

      Splinter, meet log.

    101. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With regards to the submission thing, no, I made an error and confused the passage in Corinthians with the one in collosians. It happens. The actually passage I was referring to says that the spouses bodies belong to each other. In any case, I get to be wrong sometimes too. A better point would have been to point to the passage that is says that in Christ there is no slave or free or man or woman, etc..

      As for the slavery thing, you've missed the point - the idea is to be a witness to your master by your submission. Its got nothing to do with advocating slavery.

      The bible clearly states that noone is without sin. I never claimed otherwise. I never tried to cover anything up.

      The poster is completely ignorant of the thing he is bashing, and that annoyed me. I'll get over it.

      -inasity_rules

    102. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which would you consider more noble, ethics that I follow because I have decided that it is genuinely the right and proper thing to do by my own reasoning, or ethics that I follow because I am afraid of being punished for my transgressions in either this or the next life? I'd argue the former; an ethical system that derives its power from fear of the whip is not an ethical system at all, its slavish servitude.

      When you start getting into this type of thinking, that your own thoughts dictate what is right and wrong, this is where we get things like the holocaust. Because killing 6 million Jewish people was the answer..... right?

    103. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slavery: again, if the Bible is supposed to come from and/or be a source of higher morality, why does it wallow in the mores of the times...or do you think slavery is just wonderful since the Bible explicitly endorses it? Me read Collosians 3:19? I think you should since you obviously haven't; it doesn't say one damn thing about husbands submitting to their wives. What the hell lazybones, here it is: "Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." The submitting in a Biblical marriage is entirely one-way. Hell: sorry if main-stream Christian theology isn't something you're aware of. Like most Christians you demonstrate poor knowledge of your own religion.

    104. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by TempeTerra · · Score: 1

      There are several replies already rationalising ethical behaviour, but I have a different reason for behaving 'ethically'. I'm built that way.

      As other posters have said, there are rewards for participating in an ethical, cooperative society. It seems like a rational, cost/benefit analysis should support being ethical but nobody acutally _does_ that on a day-to-day basis.

      I am a ludicrously cooperative person - I'll go well out of my way to help people for no clear benefit to myself. A while ago I helped an old man carry his groceries up the stairs to his house. I didn't know him, nobody saw me do it and I'll probably never see him again and yet it just felt like the right thing to do.

      Why am I so cooperative? I'll tell you why. There _is_ a survival benefit to belonging to a cooperative society and so that is part of the fitness function my ancestors' genes evolved against. It's an evolved behaviour and the fact that it can be rationalised is secondary. People are more or less ethical/considerate and I'm at the top of the bell curve, to the degree that I instinctively want to even do things that are obviously unproductive for me.

      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht
    105. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I did make an error, confusing it with a passage in Corinthians. Sorry.

      But one way? Not at all. By the way, what translation is that?

      Look, you misunderstand Christianity quite seriously, which explains why you hate it. If you wish to continue this discussion, go to my user page (inasity_rules), find my email address and email me. I will not reply or read further here, as it serves no purpose.

    106. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      I am? Please tell me why God in his allmightyness, couldn't just forgive men without a blood-sacrifice of his son-and-himself? Wouldn't that just make more sense, and be actually genuinely "Good".

      The trick is always to put yourself in the shoes of God. Your son stole cookies from the cookie jar? Appropriate punishment: He will be expelled from home and all his children will have eternal torment.... Unless, they submit to you and love you!

      No parent would do that, and for all intents and purposes God is our parent according to the bible. So after years of OT cruel guy, God decides to become loving and fine and dandy... Just love him, any you're salvaged. Yes, his human form needs to be sacrificed for the sins of humans to be absolved. WHY? He's almighty, he can do whatever he wants, including that weird concept of "forgiveness" (What we should do, but He is unable to do so)

      The Bible, bot OT and NT are so full of flaws that a perfect being wouldn't ever have written it. It's BS... you know it, you just haven't looked deep enough.

    107. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Evolutionary traits should have little bearing on your decision making other to accept certain starting points. You only have one life to live and you have fortunately evolved a mind to be able to make decisions beyond what your evolved capabilities might entail. For example, you can choose not to accept a failing heart and seek out a heart transplant. You can choose to drive a car created by other minds in order to overcome your very limited speed and stamina. Why would uncontrolled cooperation be any different, sure you need to cooperate with people to maximize your opportunities, but when that gets in the way you're just giving in to an evolutionary limitation.

      You can of course choose to be irrational, or just accept it. It's lazy, but people are very lazy and it generally serves those who aren't quite well.

    108. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Humans have an amazing capability to identify basic limitations and use their minds to overcome those limitations. True compassion, real felt regret, or the stress of empathizing with someone else's pain can limit your ability to achieve personal satisfaction. So to the extent possible, why wouldn't you train these things out of yourself as best as possible. Sure, you'd want to be able to fake them... they serve a wonderful social purpose... but when the opportunity arose to greatly further yourself it'd be just lazy or weak to not have tried to achieve that.

    109. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Responses:
      1) Yes, absolutely you should behave in such a way that other perceive you to be trustworthy... until it suits you to not be.

      2) I think this is potentially an inborn weakness in many people... similar to eating disorders... you want people to think you're thin so you behave totally irrationally and harm yourself... being perceived as "good" is useful, but if you tie yourself up in what other people think of you then you end up handing over your satisfaction to others which is a risky proposition. Avoid it at all costs, work to minimize those emotions if possible.

      3) I agree... you'd want everyone else to follow the rules, be nice, fair, etc... but why play along when you have the opportunity to gain more than you might lose?

    110. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Yes, but your long run isn't all that long and it's easy enough to promote good behavior while carefully doing whatever you need to get what you want out of life. Evolved limitations that restrict you should be challenged, use your mind to overcome your own weakness whenever possible. Evolution is just to slow and big... it may have given you something to start with that worked generally for humans thousands of years ago, but that's just a general starting point... why accept that, why not pursue whatever you specifically find enjoyable? People have all sorts of natural hard-wired limitations they suppress and train out of themselves... we just don't like to acknowledge that empathy and overeating may be equally worthy of trying to suppress.

    111. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      False assumption.

      Back on topic... What morality? Yours? Mine? If we all take responsibility for our own morality, whose to judge which morality is better or more succinct or rational? It seems like a meaningless statement without some external measure. But whose to agree on the external measure? And even when agreed to... whose to enforce the measure?

    112. Re:Meanwhile over in Congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, so you ignore Colossians 3:18-19 because it's inconvenient? How about this: Ephesians 5:22-25 "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." Now in general Christian theology, there's kind of a bit of a difference between God and man. Here, it's not only SUBMIT, it's also plainly stating that there is an equivalent drop down from God to Man as there is from Man to Woman. That's NKJV, not that it really matters since you can look up any passage online and find and compare any translation you chose in seconds. In other words, your pathetic game with translations doesn't work. I have no need to participate in this debate further either. It's been entirely one-sided: I can cite chapter and verse, you can't. When confronted with what the Bible actually says, you ignore it. So we finally agree on something: this "debate" is pointless.

  5. Great, 2 more gaps created in out fossil records;) by DeafDumbBlind · · Score: 1, Funny

    nt

    --


    Jesus used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
  6. Re:HEARD IT ON THE TEEVEE BEFORE SLASHDOT? OH NOES by Eddy+Luten · · Score: 1

    This story is actually a couple of days old and was previously covered by Slashdot.

    Also, Slashdot is usually a bit behind on the breaking news, such was the case with the Sun/Oracle story and several others.

  7. Media event by olclops · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is more of a media event than a true major discovery. All orchestrated by the History Channel.

    See this article.

    1. Re:Media event by mbrod · · Score: 2

      Naming it Darwinius should be a clue as to how they are trying to sensationalize this.

      Paleontologists really need to work on their language usage. An Engineer, Computer Scientist or Lawyer when describing these findings would say, "Attribute X on the skeleton shows a greater likelihood of this specimen being part of the following descendant groups, a, b, c. Further studies are warranted on other specimens for confirmation."

      Instead you get "Woo hoo, call it Darwinius, this is my great grandfather to the sixth power. Suck it, beotches!".

  8. Six day old and questionable by zoomshorts · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why is this 'news', it is an old report IF you look at archeology reports.
    Why is everyone so behind the times?

    1. Re:Six day old and questionable by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      Six days old? Why would anything that's 47 Million years old be called news?...

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
  9. Ex. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... says it's a hoax.

    Of course it's not a hoax...it's my Ex. I just forgot where I buried her.

  10. More missing links? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely this just means there are now two missing links? One between us and this creature, and one between this discovery and dinosaurs ?

  11. Igniting a non-existant debate? by Poobar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Interesting New Scientist blog: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/05/is-ida-a-pop-star-fossil-or-po.html They seem to make two main points- firstly that the whole thing is degenerating into hype, but more interestingly that there wasn't a big debate here anyway. Yes, it's a missing link, but it's one that all rational people knew must have existed somewhere. It hasn't ignited debate between creationists and evolutionists, for the reason that they don't really debate each other anymore- at least not in scientific circles.

  12. Human tails? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    Question: Are long tails in primates based on an expressed gene? I mean, has there ever been a documented case of a human being with a long tail?

    Silly yes, but I've always wanted to know. Also curious if it would help with balance (improved martial art skills)

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:Human tails? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I mean, has there ever been a documented case of a human being with a long tail?

      John Holmes.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:Human tails? by someSnarkyBastard · · Score: 1

      Yes, there has, a la google, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=humans+with+tails

      As to martial arts skills, no, they are vestigial and superfluous at best and a liability at worse (imagine getting tangled in it or having your opponent get a good pull in on it while grappling)

  13. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by pnewhook · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    You're an idiot.

    --
    Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
  14. Creationists have responded by ColonelPanic · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Christians know that "it was a small, tailed, probably tree-climbing, and now extinct primateâ"from a kind created on Day 6 of Creation Week."

    You know, I'd hate evolution too, if it had done to me what it has done to the godtards.

    --
    "Skill shows through where genius wears thin." -Wittgenstein || Religion: uniting aviation and architecture.
  15. The Missing Link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So the missing link, huh?

    Quoted from the article:

    ...while many media outlets are stumbling over themselves with phrases like "missing link" and "holy grail," it's clearly a very impressive find.

    so, seriously? This missing link... I must be missing something

  16. No way by Deadstick · · Score: 4, Funny
    but for now it looks like a cash cow for the History Channel

    Not a chance. They'd have to reduce the Hitler coverage to do that.

    rj

    1. Re:No way by spun · · Score: 4, Funny

      Don't be dissing on the Hitler Channel. Those who are ignorant of Hitler are doomed to use him in Internet arguments.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:No way by Ned+Fletcher · · Score: 1

      No need to reduce Hitler coverage -- "Hitler and the Missing Link" and "Nazi Gold: Missing Link"

    3. Re:No way by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      It was found in Germany - they'll think of something. "Missing Link found in Hitler's private shale pit"

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  17. Creationism by Pirate+Balloon · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    I'm sure this'll settle the debate.

    1. Re:Creationism by someSnarkyBastard · · Score: 2

      No it won't,the science behind evolution has been there for years and that doesn't stop them. They'll just argue that there's still a gap between this fossil and the rest of the great apes clade so it doesn't count.

    2. Re:Creationism by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2, Funny

      You must have faith to believe that God designed evolution.

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    3. Re:Creationism by spun · · Score: 1

      God doesn't exist yet because we haven't evolved into Him yet. We got it all backwards.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  18. ancient fossils by Is0m0rph · · Score: 2, Funny

    I hardly believe anything Congress or the House says anymore. Calling them ancient fossils isn't going to help matters either.

  19. It's weird by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's weird that people think following the supposed arbitrary whims of a giant invisible daddy figure in the sky is a decent basis for morality.

    1. Re:It's weird by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0

      It is equally weird that man thinks he can rule over himself, let alone rule over others.

      I dare say that no matter what your creed, motto or otherwise morality is, you have violated it at least once. And the moment you claim you haven't, I'll call you a liar to your face.

      Yes, we are all hypocrites. Only some of us are willing and able to admit this flaw.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    2. Re:It's weird by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      Right...and what does that have to do with anything?

    3. Re:It's weird by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      It's weird that people who think they were created by random chance think they or anything else is worth more than a pile of shit.

    4. Re:It's weird by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's weird that people who think they were created by random chance think they or anything else is worth more than a pile of shit.

      That's silly. I'm alive, conscious, and experiencing the world. I'm the only thing I really know - it's ridiculous to think that I don't think I'm worth something. And the people that I encounter in my life, some I dislike and others I like. The latter set is far smaller than the former, and I value its members more highly.

      But of course you're talking about ultimate value, in absolute terms, I don't think is a particularly meaningful or useful thing to talk about. I don't think there's anything absolute, permanent, or unchanging, and so nothing has value or essence in the way you're thinking.

    5. Re:It's weird by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      General Response to the grandparent poster. Basically my point is that there is no basis for morality based on any creed man has created, because they will set it aside at the earliest convenience.

      Which makes even those morality claims .... arbitrary. Lots of "except".

      Take abortion .... when is not arbitrary to abort an unborn child? In some cultures, they will take a deformed child born naturally and kill it immediately, because it is deformed, and they think it is cruel to keep such a child alive. And on the other extreme, we have Roman Catholics Popes who are against birth control because of their abortion stance.

      Inserting belief in Deity (or lack thereof) into the argument about morals is just a bigoted response. What is decent morals to one, is indecent to another, and who gets to decide who is right? There isn't even agreement among those who believe in Deity, what is morally right. There is even less agreement among those who don't believe in Deity.

      So, what is the solution? No Moral Code at all, or a single religious one? Because debating any moral code in between is simply an exercise in masturbatory ego inflation.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    6. Re:It's weird by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Just because some people are hypocrites, doesn't mean it follows that morality is meaningless or arbitrary. I mean, if it was arbitrary, then we'd never have the problem of people breaking their own moral code. Why make a moral code that you have to break, if it's no less arbitrary to have a moral code such as "nothing is wrong" or "anything I do defines what is right"?

    7. Re:It's weird by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      It's a good thing none of those people exist.

      Although when I look at creationists, I admit it's hard to tell the difference between them and a pile of...

    8. Re:It's weird by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Lets talk "Murder". Let us suppose for just a second, that we both can agree that murder is immoral.

      Now, let us talk about Abortion, is that murder or not? Why or why not. When is Abortion Murder, and when is it not?

      Why is killing an unborn child moments from being born live not murder, while ten minutes later it would be? Is it okay to kill a deformed baby because it is not humane to let it live or not?

      Now while we agree on the basic premise (Thou Shalt Not Murder), I'm pretty sure we wouldn't agree on the details.

      And we're not even talking about hypocrisy here, yet we are talking about arbitrary distinctions of what is, and isn't murder. AND I haven't even brought the deity into the conversation.

      Deity is not necessary to inject the term "arbitrary" into the conversation. Which is my point. Injecting Deity into the conversation is only a bigoted knee jerk response. The original poster suggested that using a Deity is arbitrary, when the reality it is all arbitrary. He is also indicating he doesn't like that particular arbitrary code, and would rather use his own. Which is fine, as long as he realizes that it is just as arbitrary as any other, and that he is incapable of keeping his own code.

      Man cannot rule over himself, what makes anyone think he can rule over others?

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    9. Re:It's weird by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      It's even more shocking that people who put science as the be all and end all of all wisdom of humanity fail to do the tiniest bit of proper research when it comes to religious beliefs. That actually make you fail by your own standards, I'm afraid.

      Christianity is not about arbitrary whims of a giant invisible daddy figure. Actually no religion really is. That is merely the version that is told to complete morons who will never ever understand anything that is not said in imperative form and will stand no chance of a more esoteric transcendent insight into life, being and gnosis (you know "pearls before swines etc.").

      If your only source of knowledge about Christianity is Monty Python's Holy Grail then I dare to say YOU, sir, are slightly biased.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    10. Re:It's weird by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      Now you've peaked my interest... your existence isn't just some random chance... but it's not created either? What is it then... an illusion?

    11. Re:It's weird by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      How do you understand genocide?

    12. Re:It's weird by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 1

      How do you understand genocide?

      I understand it as the deliberate (possibly attempted) elimination of an entire class of persons. I think it's a bad thing.

  20. Check out Google by earlymon · · Score: 1

    http://www.google.com/ - check out today's logo.

    --
    Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    1. Re:Check out Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will that link work tomorrow? TFS did a better job, if you can bother to read it.

    2. Re:Check out Google by earlymon · · Score: 1

      Will that link work tomorrow? TFS did a better job, if you can bother to read it.

      Maybe the link won't work tomorrow - the point of my post is that it is there TODAY.

      If you had bothered to RTFA(s), which I in fact had, you'd notice that this was yesterday's news - oh - sorry - that was in TFS, too.

      Thanks a lot for your highly cogent criticism.

      --
      Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
  21. Because we say so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just because a science says something does not equal truth. After all science once said blood letting was a good way to get healthy. Or that the chain of evolution is a tree where now science indicates it is more of a bush. Everyone has an opinion it just depends on which is more popular. So be weary of science... everyone wants the Nobel Peace Prize. As far as I am concerned, science and religion push ideas down to the blind faithful.

    1. Re:Because we say so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference, O moronic one, is that science is testable and modifies itself as theories are tested. Religion sticks to the same silly believes long after proven wrong. Hell, I know a Creationist farmer who still believes the Earth is flat! The simple fact that medical science as grown to understand blood letting is bad and is no longer practiced is proof you're an idiot and science works.

  22. Looks like a monkey to me. by yourassOA · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But its foot bone look similar to a humans so it got to be a missing link. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

  23. Read the whole article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that all you can respond to?

    1. Re:Read the whole article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering there's nothing there...

  24. Interesting Subtext by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The various articles I've read and quotations from the people involved imply "Now that we've found this fossil the creationists don't have a leg to stand on." This implies that before they discovered this fossil they believed that the creationists DID have some legitemate arguments given the known fossil record up to that point. I wonder how many other legitimate arguments there are out there that the power brokers in the scientific community are trying to suppress simply because they don't correspond to their assumptions.

    1. Re:Interesting Subtext by pe1rxq · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Creationists didn't hava a any leg to stand on....
      Never did, it is simple an example of sensationalist journalism...

      Anybody who thinks that creationists will simply give up one day when you show them a missing link is wrong.... creationists will simply point out that to them you just created two new missing links in the family tree....
      The don't have arguments... just their dogma, you are not going to convince them.

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    2. Re:Interesting Subtext by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True...there creator is often called 'the god of the gaps'.
      In every tiny whole in the evolution theory they place there little god to fill the gap pounding on there chest like there is not tomorrow but the gaps are getting smaller and smaller and so is there room for a god.
      But in the end..none of this matters because even if the fossil record is perfect and all the 'missing links' are there (that will never happen of course because you would need many many millions of fossils for every branch on the tree of life) a true believers believe in there god is beyond any discussion or proof..for them it's a fact..a starting point and if there is proof (aka gaps in science) the will step up and use that, if that resource runs out they will just soldier on with there stupid bronze age book of bullshit.

  25. Uh, she wasn't found two years ago by macsuibhne · · Score: 4, Informative

    She was found in 1983 by an anonymous collector. She was sold to the University of Oslo two years ago.

    Tony.

    --
    -- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" -- Juvenal
  26. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by McDutchie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Correlation is not causation. Just because different "racial" groups statistically have different levels of "intelligence" (a culturally defined and therefore biased concept) doesn't mean that race has anything to do with it. The assumption that this difference is caused by "racial"/genetic factors, without offering any evidence to support that assumption, is invalid and may be considered racist.

    The history of humanity suggests that culture is the overriding causal factor. Asians and Europeans are just as capable as Africans (or any other "race") of having a primitive, oppressive and destructive culture, as has been well established through the ages. For example, we saw the same abject poverty in Europe during the Middle Ages, for cultural reasons that are well known. Also, contrary to popular prejudice, there are African countries that are doing pretty well.

  27. Its Parentage by Crock23A · · Score: 2, Funny

    The only question is whether or not it indeed had a Human father and a Cylon mother.

  28. latest phdcomics is an exact fit by slashdotmsiriv · · Score: 3, Funny
  29. Google by Falkentyne · · Score: 0

    Is it just me or does today's Google logo look more like somebody smeared shit on my google homepage and tossed in some chunks?

    Oh, the logo is on the top left? Uh oh..

  30. Couple of things: by 16Chapel · · Score: 2, Informative

    1) Wary, not weary.

    2) Nobel Prize for X, not the Peace Prize.

    1. Re:Couple of things: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ALL Nobel Prizes are "Peace Prizes" moron.

    2. Re:Couple of things: by 16Chapel · · Score: 1

      Nope:
      "The Peace Prize is one of five prizes that have been awarded annually since 1901 under the auspices of the Nobel Foundation in Stockholm for outstanding contributions in the fields of physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, literature, and peace."

      http://nobelpeaceprize.org/en_GB/about_peaceprize/
      http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/

  31. Fool. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With this statement you're admitting that the only thing keeping you in check is the fear of being caught and punished. Morality is an alien concept to you.

    AC because I don't want scum like you knowing anything about me.

  32. The pimp hand has been shown by spun · · Score: 1

    I was going to slap you down with mah pimp hand, but it looks like you done been slapped already. It is impossible to get real morality from an imaginary sky daddy. Real morality comes from examining the world: right and wrong are pretty obvious when you actually look. You stopped looking as soon as you heard that a sky daddy will spank the evildoers for all eternity. That's not morality, that's pathology.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:The pimp hand has been shown by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Real morality comes from examining the world: right and wrong are pretty obvious when you actually look

      Right and wrong are pretty obvious when you actually look? I find that to be a very...childish...view for lack of a better term.

      Is abortion right or wrong?
      Is the death penalty right or wrong?
      Is jailing somebody with a family right or wrong?
      Is jailing somebody at ALL right or wrong?
      Is drug usage right or wrong?
      Is preemptive warfare right or wrong?
      Is invading another country EVER right or wrong?
      Is it right or wrong to kill somebody who is attacking you?

      Whichever answer you give for any one of these questions, there are many people that could argue with you forever and never once mention religion.

      You stopped looking as soon as you heard that a sky daddy will spank the evildoers for all eternity. That's not morality, that's pathology.

      That's really quite silly. If you can show me one person who doesn't think for themselves but runs every decision solely through what they think their religion says the answer should be, I'll reconsider. Otherwise your statement is simply ludicrous and shows a complete lack of understanding when it comes to religion and what role religion plays in most people's lives.

    2. Re:The pimp hand has been shown by spun · · Score: 1

      Those are hypothetical situations, not real situations one can actually look at. There is not enough detail in any of them to make a moral decision.

      Religion's role is to get people to shut off critical thinking by mixing some good, common sense morality with some utterly non-verifiable wackiness. People agree with the common sense stuff, then feel that, as they can't judge the wacky stuff (I'm the only God, worship only Me), their judgment must be faulty, so they accept the religion unthinkingly.

      Religion is horribly damaging to the human psyche, intellect, and to society as a whole.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:The pimp hand has been shown by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Those are hypothetical situations, not real situations one can actually look at. There is not enough detail in any of them to make a moral decision.

      Oh ok, so unlike your earlier proclamation that morality is simple and right and wrong are pretty obvious, you're now saying that decisions are difficult and nuanced?

      I'll just go out on a limb and say freewill and human life clearly being the pinnacle of existence, it is always wrong to end another's life...nobody has the right to ever end another life. Abortion is always wrong. Capital punishment is always wrong. Self defense is always wrong. I believe this because life is all we truly have that is our own.

      I'm guessing you don't agree with me. Heck, *I* don't agree with what I said, but I think I could argue the point ad infinitum.

      Religion's role is to get people to shut off critical thinking by mixing some good, common sense morality with some utterly non-verifiable wackiness

      Well, I actually agree with you to some degree here. The example I used in a different post was Thomas Jefferson's Red Letter Bible, in which he removed the God, the mysticism and miracles, the junk, and left the ethical and moral teachings of Jesus. The difference to me is that I don't view religion as inherently bad. That is, when you boil it down, the ethicla and moral teachings of Jesus are all Christianity is really about...they're the meat and potatoes if you will.

      It's completely obvious that this interpretation is where the great mass of people have been moving for centuries as well.

      Religion is horribly damaging to the human psyche, intellect, and to society as a whole.

      What evidence do you have that religion is damaging to the psyche and intellect? I'd be interested in hearing that.

    4. Re:The pimp hand has been shown by spun · · Score: 1

      Nope. I said morality is simple in real life situations, where all the facts are known. Nice try at making a straw man, though.

      Free will may or may not exist, but it is utterly unimportant. Nothing is a thing unto itself. Everything exists because conditions that support it exists.

      There is no self. There is no hard and fast distinction between internal and external. The closer you look, the more holes and exceptions you will see. Without self, the concept of free will is moot.

      I'm sorry I've been trolling your religion so hard. I actually have real respect for people who truly try to follow the teachings of Jesus. I just want to shake things up and get people thinking, but making statements like I was making probably isn't the best way of doing that. More likely I will just piss them off and they will stop thinking.

      But, now I feel I have to back up those statements. Religion is damaging to the intellect and psyche insofar as it replaces the natural, internal moral sense with an arbitrary, external and rigid set of rules. People stop thinking for themselves, and they stop trusting their own situational sense of right and wrong. That is damaging.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:The pimp hand has been shown by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      There is no self. There is no hard and fast distinction between internal and external. The closer you look, the more holes and exceptions you will see. Without self, the concept of free will is moot.

      Whereas I believe--more or less--that consciousness is all we have. We make of it what we will, but the sense of "self" we have is all that is truly real. Make of it what you will.

      I'm sorry I've been trolling your religion so hard. I actually have real respect for people who truly try to follow the teachings of Jesus. I just want to shake things up and get people thinking, but making statements like I was making probably isn't the best way of doing that. More likely I will just piss them off and they will stop thinking.

      That's the problem with debating religion...I don't think anybody ever changes their minds.

      And FWIW, I don't mind at all... I like discussing things as well, and while I fully describe myself as a cultural Christian, I'm agnostic and completely non-practicing (and completely uninterested in practicing for that matter), so you're not hurting my feelings.

      But, now I feel I have to back up those statements. Religion is damaging to the intellect and psyche insofar as it replaces the natural, internal moral sense with an arbitrary, external and rigid set of rules. People stop thinking for themselves, and they stop trusting their own situational sense of right and wrong. That is damaging.

      I don't believe religion does that. I absolutely agree that *IF* people stop thinking for themselves that's a horrible thing. I just don't think religion is responsible for that.

    6. Re:The pimp hand has been shown by spun · · Score: 1

      There is a sense of self, but it is no more and no less important than any other senses. When I am in an intense coding session or athletic competition, my sense of self disappears completely and there is no separation between observer and observed. I know from experience that the sense of self is not important.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    7. Re:The pimp hand has been shown by melikamp · · Score: 1

      I like the last paragraph. IMHO, organized religion is a mechanism for spreading ideas in a hierarchical manner. It is just one of many ways to coordinate actions of a large group of people. Sometimes we want to have a way to make everybody act together, so that cannot be bad in itself. But many (IMHO, all organized religion) implementations are retarded to some degree. I can pick on Catholics, just for their size. All ideas trickle down from a handful of people in red and one jolly old fellow in white. What if they happen to be The Crazy Bunch? Well, they are. Bloopers range from ironic (priests cannot have sex) to devilish (war on contraception).

  33. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're a dick, idiot.

  34. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh... not only are you a dick, but you're utterly moronic as well. Look at you, all high-and-mighty with your slick and witty comments. Did it take you long to think that one up or were you just waiting for the right time to use it?

    "You're an idiot." Granted that you spelled it all correctly, but that's hardly becoming of someone who can't even form a response as to WHY they think that way.

    Of course... YOU'RE sitting at YOUR computer, on YOUR internet connection using YOUR Firefox installation to learn things yourself. By that logic, YOU'RE smarter than everyone else. Hey, you play WoW don't you? Call it a hunch.

  35. Answers in Genesis by Epeeist · · Score: 1

    They seem to think that the preservation provides good evidence for the Noachic flood - http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/05/19/ida-missing-link

    Scientists really do need to discover a crocoduck, but I doubt that would even cause these idiots to shut up. They have so much foot in mouth they resemble a hoop.

  36. WTF? by wall0159 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let's just think for a moment about which branches of science contradict creationism:
    biology
    biochemistry
    genetics
    physics
    astronomy
    astrophysics

    I'm sure there are other _genres_ of science too. Are you really saying that it doesn't matter if a leader of society believes that all the scientists working in these fields are wrong?

    Believing in creationism is like believing the earth is flat, and would have huge consequences in many many public policy areas.

    1. Re:WTF? by ArcherB · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's just think for a moment about which branches of science contradict creationism:
      biology
      biochemistry
      genetics
      physics
      astronomy
      astrophysics

      I'm sure there are other _genres_ of science too. Are you really saying that it doesn't matter if a leader of society believes that all the scientists working in these fields are wrong?

      Believing in creationism is like believing the earth is flat, and would have huge consequences in many many public policy areas.

      I'll just take the last three, physics, astronomy, and astrophysics, and use one example to prove you wrong. Now, go read up on THIS GUY who used all three of these to support the idea that God created the universe.

      Now, don't get me wrong, I find flat eathers and young earth creationists just as annoying as you do, so please don't lump all "creationists" together. Many are brilliant scientists who present valid cases for differing levels of creationism based on actual science, much like the example I listed above.

      Religion and science are NOT mutually exclusive.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    2. Re:WTF? by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Look, I agree with you on some levels...but if creationism is saying that God happened to push the first strands of DNA together, if God happened to tweak the mutation that gave us speech, etc, if God DROVE human development over millenia, is it really contradicted?

    3. Re:WTF? by halivar · · Score: 1

      Also do not confuse "old earth" creationists, who by-and-large support evolutionary theory, big bang theory, and other matters of settled science, with "young earth" creationists and ID pseudo-scientists.

    4. Re:WTF? by wall0159 · · Score: 1

      My post was referring to young-earth creationists.

      Having said this, to describe the big-bang theory as supporting "the idea that God created the universe" is ridiculous. While it seems possible that a "first mover" could have started the big-bang and created the universe, there is no evidence. In fact, we have no empirical evidence for god whatsoever.

      I am also confused by your links, since neither of them even contain the word "god"!

    5. Re:WTF? by thirty-seven · · Score: 1

      Let's just think for a moment about which branches of science contradict creationism: biology biochemistry genetics physics astronomy astrophysics

      Biochemistry and genetics are large fields within biology, and likewise astronomy and astrophysics are areas within physics. But to your list, we can add

      • geology
      • paleontology (which fits within biology and geology, I suppose)
      --

      Atheism is a religion to the same extent that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

    6. Re:WTF? by halivar · · Score: 1

      Believing in creationism is like believing the earth is flat, and would have huge consequences in many many public policy areas.

      Like what?

      I'm sorry, but I happen to think a misunderstanding of economic theory is vastly more devastating to a country's public policy than a misunderstanding of evolutionary theory.

    7. Re:WTF? by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      My post was referring to young-earth creationists.

      You simply said "creationists". You didn't specify YEC's. Yes, YEC's are a subset of Creationists, but they do not make up the whole. It would be like me railing against Democrats because of their socialists views, even though not all Democrats are socialists.

      Having said this, to describe the big-bang theory as supporting "the idea that God created the universe" is ridiculous. While it seems possible that a "first mover" could have started the big-bang and created the universe, there is no evidence. In fact, we have no empirical evidence for god whatsoever.

      I am also confused by your links, since neither of them even contain the word "god"!

      True. However, Lematre was driven by God. The Bible says that God is the creator the heavens and the earth. That means that the universe had a creation. The thinking at the time, as put forth by Einstein, was that the universe was static. A static universe had no creation, and thus no creator. So, even though the articles don't spell it out, proving the possibility of Creationism on a cosmic scale was the goal of Lematre.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    8. Re:WTF? by Poorcku · · Score: 1

      Georges Lemaitre called. I guess I don't have to tell you what he said.

      --
      I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
    9. Re:WTF? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The Bible says that God is the creator the heavens and the earth.

      I never trust the documentation.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:WTF? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      He said "I'm the 61st most famous Belgian? Who are the other 60?"

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:WTF? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Let's just think for a moment about which branches of science contradict creationism: biology biochemistry genetics physics astronomy astrophysics

      You mean applied^n maths for various values of n?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:WTF? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Fact: The article does not say what you claimed. You're a proven liar.

      Shouldn't you be throwing stones at pregnant teenagers or something?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:WTF? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Religion and science are NOT mutually exclusive.

      You might as well say shape and colour aren't mutually exclusive. They're orthogonal.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    14. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't you be throwing stones at pregnant teenagers or something?

      Saying "Shouldn't you be throwing stones at pregnant teenagers or something?" is the same thing as me asking you, "Shouldn't you be sucking cock in a gay pride parade or something?"

    15. Re:WTF? by mahadiga · · Score: 1

      There is NO science behind Religion, Race or Caste. Because all living humans mtDNA is derived from a SINGLE woman. http://tr.im/kWFv

      --
      I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
  37. WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What exactly is Google celebrating? I mean seriously WTF?

  38. 47 Millions years OLD? Really? by hackus · · Score: 2, Informative

    Are you positively ABSOLUTELY sure it is 47 Million years OLD?

    Really?

    http://www.astroengine.com/?p=1382

    -Hack

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
  39. What's up with Google's image? by motherpusbucket · · Score: 2, Funny

    It looks like something ate a small monkey and got projectile diarrhea on their website. Someone should hack in and add some flies to it.

    --
    "You can't really dust for vomit" --Nigel Tufnel
  40. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Moridineas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just out of curiosity, would you say the same thing about physical attributes?

    ie, are Asians and Europeans just as capable of certain African peoples of sprinting or long distance running?

    have different levels of "intelligence" (a culturally defined and therefore biased concept)

    Ridiculously silly.

    For example, we saw the same abject poverty in Europe during the Middle Ages, for cultural reasons that are well known

    I think you need to learn your history a little better. You're discussing myths and falsehoods, which makes whatever your beliefs about some "cultural" reasons utterly irrelevant.

  41. Please Read by j0ebaker · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    This is what I have heard and am passing it on to you because I bet you've never heard this story. I consider it to be more truthful than either the Evolution or the Creation stories.

    There are writings in ancient texts which point to civilization going back about 450,000 years. Aliens came here and mixed their DNA the neanderthol woman's to come up with man. Lots of DNA manipulation seems to be portrayed in ancient images carved in stone.

    Today horific DNA experiments occur.

    There was a race called the Anunaki who came to earth to mine gold for their collapsing atmosphere. Man was "created" for this purpose of mining gold. Within man is the ability to realize the full potential of the brain that the Anunaki had but they have made it difficult to achieve. Contaminents, such as mercury and flouride and aluminum impare the brain's function. Silver amalgum fillings in teeth contain mercury - at all costs get this shit out of your head ASAP and go through a detoxification program. Stop using flouride toothpaste and sue your dentist!

    Reject all forms of government in favor of archon "no king". I have much more to say, but begin to research on your own about ancient secret societies - they have this knowledge - but do not pledge their secrecy oaths - theirs is to control the masses through deception using their knowledge to their own dark perverted perception of what's "good for the world" - assuming people are to be made as sheep.

    Some good research about mercury, flouride and such can be found here: http://www.nwolibrary.com/

    My site: http://www.joebaker.org/
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

    iEYEARECAAYFAkoUMQwACgkQ7J1dPd3sAmBOgwCgnUpoqlPRwJPCets6JA0nD47w
    fx0An1N0D/Y+/Un6siSXVXyhJ0zW/ttF
    =ggAw
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    1. Re:Please Read by DrXym · · Score: 1

      I think you have lost your marbles.

    2. Re:Please Read by j0ebaker · · Score: 1

      Your candor is appreciated. Yet reality is indeed a strange thing when we have been taught to perceive it by others.

      I assure you I am finding marbles which I never even knew I'd had.

      Satnam - "I respect the truth within you"

      -Joe

  42. yeah yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    global warming settled science....
    evolution obviously the only possibility...
    windows the only operating system that matters....

    yep the herd is always right, question nothing, ridicule everything, tell a lie often enough and it becomes DOGMA.

    All Hail the New Intellectual world order!

  43. Troll? by Moridineas · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Modded troll? I see the PC brigade is out in force today...sheesh.

  44. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

    different levels of "intelligence" (a culturally defined and therefore biased concept)

    As I understand it, IQ tests were largely developed by whites. You'd think that if they were biased, they'd have fiddled it so they came out on top.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  45. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    ie, are Asians and Europeans just as capable of certain African peoples of sprinting or long distance running?

    The other way round, consider swimming.

    Now you might say that the brain is a part of the body like any other, but that can't be right because ... well, it's different, and Stephen Jay Gould said so and anyway you're mean and it's NOT FAIR!!!!

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  46. Thanks for admitting you don't know by spun · · Score: 1

    You are trying to use hearsay to slander Kucinich, while giving the impression that you are being reasonable. You aren't. The important point for any readers to take away from this conversation is "So, as before, we basically don't know."

    Everything else is unsupported innuendo designed to cast aspersions on Kucinich, which is exactly the type of slander I accused right wing loons of. Thank you for providing an example of the unfairness I mentioned.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Thanks for admitting you don't know by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      You are trying to use hearsay to slander Kucinich, while giving the impression that you are being reasonable. You aren't.

      So quoting Kucinich's friend and noting that Kucinich never denied what she wrote, even when directly asked--that's slander? Noting that information about the Kucinich's UFO experience came not from any "right wing loon" but his friend--that's slander?

      I've gone out of my way in this thread to avoid that, but I guess since what I've said--repeatedly--are exactly the facts of the case...facts that you don't like...I'm guilty of slander.

      That's quite unpleasant. When all else fails, accuse your foes of slander and being loons...rarely fails.

    2. Re:Thanks for admitting you don't know by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The argument goes like this: well he knows some people who are bit loony[1], so he must be a bit loony.

      Fornunately, they'd never ever try that with things like people's political affiliation.

      [1] nobody can seriously claim that Shirley MacLaine has all her chairs upstairs.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Thanks for admitting you don't know by spun · · Score: 1

      Sounds like he denied it to me. I never claimed a right wing loon started this non-story, I claimed they are the only ones who care about it. I never claimed you were a loon, either. I claimed that you were implying negative things about Kucinich that can't be backed up by facts. You admit they can't be backed up by facts, yet you insist on repeating these allegations. Slander.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    4. Re:Thanks for admitting you don't know by spun · · Score: 1

      Shirley McClain tore up all her chairs to make a shrine to Wingnuttia, the Goddess of screw fasteners. I'm not sure whether it is upstairs or not.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:Thanks for admitting you don't know by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      That's not really the argument at all.

      The argument is that a friend/close relation/whatever you want to call her of Kucinich made specific claims about an experience she shared with Kucinich. I have not read anywhere that Kucinich has denied these claims. That's all, no deeper or more complex or insidious than that.

    6. Re:Thanks for admitting you don't know by spun · · Score: 1

      I disagree, I believe Kucinich did refute her claim, and I believe the interview proves that. In any case, McClain's testimony is hearsay, only good for baseless attacks.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  47. Re:47 Millions years OLD? Really? by Poorcku · · Score: 1

    sorry for not being a physics freak. so they are saying that isotope decay rates differ on earth from other environments? that is pretty much huge in itself.

    --
    I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
  48. Re:More than that.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A key one is, "Why must the Bible mention dinosaurs?". The oldest book in my home is a '73 VW Chilton's manual, but why should I expect *IT* to detail every step of evolution, DNA, and the singularity? The same applies to the Bible; it has it's own context.

    Uh, because the Bible contains a story of how the world was supposedly created? Told by the creator? Dinosaurs are a big omission.

    If your Chilton manual was written by the guy(s) who built the '73 VW, I would damn well expect them to include every major detail about the work!

  49. Re:47 Millions years OLD? Really? by beej · · Score: 1

    Are you positively ABSOLUTELY sure it is 47 Million years OLD?

    Being a geology fan, I like to think of it as "47 million years YOUNG"!

  50. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by CyberLord+Seven · · Score: 1

    ie, are Asians and Europeans just as capable of certain African peoples of sprinting or long distance running?

    sigh...

    You do know that it was not too long ago that it was hypothesized that Afrikans* had "fast twitch" muscles that enabled great speed, but reduced long distance running, AND that Europeans had "slow twitch" muscles that were poorly adapted for speed, but excelled at long distance running. This was all prior to the 1990s when all those Afrikan runners started winning marathons.

    Long story short, people are people. We all work with what we have. I have seen many examples of people with huge potential go to waste, and many examples of people who just refuse to lay down and die despite tremendous obstacles.

    * I spell Afrika with a "k" because Afrikans spell it with a "k".

    --
    We have always been at war with Eurasia!
  51. No true Scotsman by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 1

    Way to go with a logical fallacy.

    Also, you exhibit a deep lack of understanding with respect to most of Christian history.

  52. it's Conspiracy, baby!! by PGOER · · Score: 1

    Of course it's 47 million years old, the creationists are using this to cast doubt on the fact that it is older than 6000 years. Most likely they purchased it privately to destroy it, but they couldn't because it's DOLOMITE, baby!!

    --
    I am not a nerd, I just play one in real life. My avatar thinks I'm a total loser.
  53. Re:More than that.. by flitty · · Score: 1

    Shorter WheelDweller: Evolution is false because the bible is "so right" about a couple of things

    --
    Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
  54. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by pnewhook · · Score: 1

    Of course... YOU'RE sitting at YOUR computer, on YOUR internet connection using YOUR Firefox installation to learn things yourself. By that logic, YOU'RE smarter than everyone else. Hey, you play WoW don't you? Call it a hunch.

    A poor hunch. I don't own a computer - I have one given to me by my employer. I don't use Firefox. I don't and have never played WoW.

    --
    Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
  55. bzzt, thanks for playing by Xtifr · · Score: 1

    Without some timeless being which created everything, there is no absolute truth, which means that morality is a construct of society, and reflects the values of that society.

    Sorry, but 1+1=2 does not require "some timeless being" to accept, and the Golden Rule is simple ethical algebra that doesn't depend on your opinions of the FSM. Space and Time may be relative, but Planck's constant and the speed of light are not. Morality may be a construct of society (note that I'm not accepting this hypothesis, merely working with it for the sake of a thought experiment), but Human society is created by a pack of social apes with a huge degree of common wiring, including mirror neurons, and inevitably reflects that fact. Pure moralistic relativism of the sort that that the religious so loudly and publicly worry about would only be possible in beings of pure thought, which we are decidedly not, and even if we were, basic game theory would militate against certain ethical formulations; cooperation is a first-rate survival trait in Darwinian terms (which may well be why we evolved mirror neurons in the first place).

    Some elements of morality are purely subjective and slippery; others derive purely from our hard-wired brain circuitry, which in turn stems from millions of years of evolution; and others still derive from basic mathematical truisms.

  56. An Outline of how Science Reporting Works by sammysheep · · Score: 1

    Thus, this comic seems terribly appropriate (PhD Comics ftw): http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174

  57. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by McDutchie · · Score: 1

    Just out of curiosity, would you say the same thing about physical attributes?

    So you claim that physical attributes are related to intelligence? If not, you're off topic; if so, you're not worth arguing with. Anthropometric theories of intelligence have been utterly discredited since the 1940s.

    have different levels of "intelligence" (a culturally defined and therefore biased concept)

    Ridiculously silly.

    Your inability to come up with any substantial response is a sign of ignorance.

    You might want to educate yourself. For example: Intelligence across cultures

  58. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by McDutchie · · Score: 1

    As I understand it, IQ tests were largely developed by whites. You'd think that if they were biased, they'd have fiddled it so they came out on top.

    It's not that conscious. No conspiracy theory is required. Cultural bias slips into IQ tests without the designers noticing, but it's a well-established fact now that it has. There are efforts to eliminate cultural bias from IQ tests but it is unlikely that this is even possible; for example, visual processing, although language-independent, is culturally determined to a massive degree. For a little background here's the same link I gave to the other guy: Intelligence across cultures (APA).

  59. Primate evolution by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2, Funny

    Besides primate evolution is essential to the church. They start as vicars, progress to bishops and eventually end up as primate.

  60. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Moridineas · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Afrikan? Really? I've met plenty of Africans who use the standard spelling...who exactly uses a new spelling?

    This was all prior to the 1990s when all those Afrikan runners started winning marathons

    I could be wrong, but I believe the Kenyan domination of longer distance events started earlier, like in the 60s/70s?

    In any case, it seems difficult to argue that there isn't something innate in some African peoples that make them better runners than others.

    We all do work with what we have. We don't all have the same things to work with though! I could train my whole life and not be a championship marathoner.

  61. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Moridineas · · Score: 1

    So you claim that physical attributes are related to intelligence? If not, you're off topic; if so, you're not worth arguing with. Anthropometric theories of intelligence have been utterly discredited since the 1940s.

    Haha, nice try. It's clear and undeniable that different families have different physical attributes. It's clear and undeniable that different families have differing level of susceptibility to different diseases, conditions, etc. Is one really to believe that everything is heritable EXCEPT for anything to do with the brain...really? What makes the brain exempt from evolution and heritability?

    Your inability to come up with any substantial response is a sign of ignorance.

    How about this--if you had said the SAT was culturally biased, you MIGHT have a point. Brainpower is brainpower.

  62. Re:More than that.. by Zakabog · · Score: 2

    Looking at your post history, it seems as if you're just trying to troll but I feel like this point needs to be addressed

    A key one is, "Why must the Bible mention dinosaurs?". The oldest book in my home is a '73 VW Chilton's manual, but why should I expect *IT* to detail every step of evolution, DNA, and the singularity?

    You shouldn't expect that information in a Chilton's manual. Though, if the book didn't even hint at the existence of your engine, vaguely described the workings of the other components of the car, contradicted itself frequently, and was blatantly incorrect on major points, you might question the knowledge of the books authors.

  63. Re:More than that.. by Jake+Griffin · · Score: 1

    I'll just pick out one: "contradicted itself frequently". Please site just one source on this, and, please, save me some time and use it in the correct, full contect.

    --
    SIG FAULT: Post index out of bounds.
  64. an easy one by BitterAndDrunk · · Score: 1
    Two distinct genealogies for Mary, with a differing number of generations. Matthew and Mark I believe? May be Luke.

    How about when man was created - before or after the animals? The J thread and the E thread contradict each other right in Genesis.

    In fact, tons of contradictions can be found just by following the J vs E threads in the OT - Noah is another easy one (was it 2 of each animal, or 2 of most animals and 7 of some others? J and E contradict each other here)

    --
    You better watch out, there may be dogs about . . .
    1. Re:an easy one by Jake+Griffin · · Score: 1

      I'll admit, I am not an expert on this, but I'll do my best. The differing genealogies in Matthew and Luke (genealogies of Joseph by the way, not Mary) is something that has been debated for a long time and there are many different opinions about it. See the fourth paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestors_of_Christ for just some of the explanations. Like I said, I'm not an expert, so I can't give you my own say on this matter.

      As far as the "before/after animals" thing, if you're referring to Genesis 1:25-27 as the "after animals" reference and 2:18-19 as the "before animals" reference, I advise you look more carefully at the Genesis 2 account and notice that it is NOT a chronological account of creation. If I were to say that "I went to school and work today" it does not necessarily mean that I went to school and, after that, I went to work. Likewise, Genesis 2 says that he created man AND created all the beasts AND he brought them to Adam. No order is implied here (with the exception that Adam must have been created before the beasts were brought to him). This does not contradict the "God created the beasts THEN created man" sequence depicted in Genesis 1.

      I'm not familiar with the 'J' and 'E' threads, but what I have always learned was that, as in Genesis 7:2, Noah took "seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate." I'm not sure where it is referenced as 2 of each animal (although I will admit that's what is typically believed by many Christians, that is mainly because it is what is taught to children, but that's probably more for simplicity and maybe a bit of ignorance than anything). If you have a reference for this, I would be interested in seeing it.

      Also, if you would explain what you mean by "J vs E" threads, I would appreciate it. I did a bit of searching on Google and came up with nothing.

      --
      SIG FAULT: Post index out of bounds.
    2. Re:an easy one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I presume he means Jacob and Esau.

  65. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Afrikan? Really? I've met plenty of Africans who use the standard spelling...who exactly uses a new spelling?

    Afrikaners.

    Tot Ziens!

  66. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by McDutchie · · Score: 1

    It's clear and undeniable that different families have different physical attributes. It's clear and undeniable that different families have differing level of susceptibility to different diseases, conditions, etc. Is one really to believe that everything is heritable EXCEPT for anything to do with the brain...really? What makes the brain exempt from evolution and heritability?

    Nice straw man. I never claimed the brain is exempt from these. My claims are that intelligence is a culturally biased concept, that intelligence tests consequently have an inherent cultural bias, and that "race" is irrelevant in determining intelligence, its correlation with culture being mere coincidence. Not a word you said has done anything to refute these claims, for which the scientific evidence is overwhelming and widely accepted.

    But the death blow to your argument is that there are no races. Individual/familial genetic variation is so much greater than genetic variation between races that the latter is insignificant, making any "racial" distinction on the basis of superficial appearances such as skin colour meaningless. That makes race a purely cultural concept.

    How about this--if you had said the SAT was culturally biased, you MIGHT have a point. Brainpower is brainpower.

    I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, but I think you might be implying that brainpower is purely genetically or "racially" determined. If so, that's wrong; environmental factors including culture have everything to do with it (ref.: Nature, Nurture and Early Brain Development). It starts right in babyhood where interaction with the baby is an important factor in determining brain development. How this interaction is done is culturally determined to a high degree.

    It continues through adulthood where our mode of interacting with the environment is culturally determined and determines which brain parts are stimulated and strengthened and which are not. For example, London taxi drives have enlarged hippocampuses because they have memorized the entire London street map. More generally, our visual processing capacity has been massively increased for the recent few generations due to television and the image culture; simultaneously, most of us now have the attention span of a gnat and have become impaired in our ability to read a book or otherwise stay on the same task for hours on end. Conversely, our ancestors would have considered MTV a form of visual torture; their brains couldn't possibly handle it. These are all very real aspects of biological brain development that are culturally determined. (Is Google Making Us Stupid? What the Internet is doing to our brains is a good social commentary on that phenomenon.)

    More proof? The Flynn effect: average IQ scores worldwide tends to increase about 3 points per decade, reflecting improvement in education standards worldwide. They have to periodically recalibrate IQ tests because of that. In a more extreme example, Dutch conscripts gained 21 points in only 30 years, or 7 points per decade, between 1952 and 1982 (see the wiki article for the reference). There is no way for any of this to be caused by genetics. Genes don't change that fast.

    In short, denying cultural influence on brain development is just as silly as denying genetic influence on the same. And "race" is a genetically insignificant factor compared to individual and familial genetic variation, which puts any and all nonsense about Africans being stupid due to genetic inferiority in the rubbish bin where it belongs.

  67. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They don't spell it Afrikan. They spell it Afrikaans.

  68. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Moridineas · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nice straw man. I never claimed the brain is exempt from these.

    Ok, if you didn't, then cool--that makes up a lot of what I disagreed with. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant when you claimed that culture causes intelligence--I took that as meaning intelligence has no heritability. Glad we agree on that point after all.

    p.s. I still don't understand:

    For example, we saw the same abject poverty in Europe during the Middle Ages, for cultural reasons that are well known.

    That makes race a purely cultural concept.

    Yes, race IS a cultural concept. I would not argue that point. I think I've been pretty clear in the last couple points about mentioning "certain African peoples" etc rather than saying "Blacks." As an example, using the example of Kenyan marathoners, most of the marathoners come from a small area of Kenya, and many are of same tribes. Tribes due to inbreeding are probably as closely as you can be related and not striclty be talking about families. "African" may not mean much, but when you look at the performance of sprinters and marathoners, it's hard to argue that many people of direct African descent dominate the scene.

    I think you might be implying that brainpower is purely genetically or "racially" determined.

    No, not at all. Let me put it this way--I don't believe people are getting smarter..well, maybe in some ways, but that's slow evolutionary change. I don't believe that we are in anyways smarter than people 2000 years ago, 4000 years ago, etc. 20,000 years ago? We might be smarter than them, hard to say. We're most definitely smarter than our ancestors of 100,000 years ago, etc.

    Is intelligence genetically determined? IMHO (as far as I know, the science is still largely up the air), yes--with a but. The but is of course your genes give you a potential, doesn't mean you have to fulfill it. How many people with Michael Phelps' body would train hard enough to do what he did? How many people with Einstein's brain would do what he did? Difficult to say. I definitely believe genetics play a large part.

    The point is, IQ, SAT, all these tests you keep talking about, they measure something, but it's open to interpretation as to what they measure. That's why I said you maybe have a point about SAT. Beyond that, when I said "brainpower is brainpower" what I meant is there are smart people, smarter people, and stupid people (and millions of variants in between). I believe in something called intelligence that is perhaps not universally quantifiable in a test, but that exists nonetheless.

    Is "race" a genetically insignificant factor? Perhaps. The issue is that "race" and "skin color" are all most people think about. In reality there are basically clusters of somewhat related people. Is there a "Black" race or an "Asian" or a "White" race? -- absolutely not. The difference between your average East African and your average West African or South African can be huge. Ditto East European and North European, etc.

    The modern world with all the movement and intermingle will completely undermine the concept of race in no time.

  69. Re:Transcendental god? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A transcendental god could only be represented as a power series. The big question is whether the god is converging or diverging. This will help you decide whether you can integrate the god into your life or whether integration is impossible. The derivative of a converging god is a religion since it is often advisable to pay respect to anything powerful converging on you. No worries about the diverging gods. Although, it is not possible to change the order of the summation for diverging gods since one will be out of earshot first.

  70. absence of logic by wall0159 · · Score: 1

    "Lematre was driven by God."
    Speculation.

    "The Bible says that God is the creator the heavens and the earth."
    hearsay.

    "That means that the universe had a creation."
    speculation + hearsay = false conclusion.

    Look, I don't care if people believe in god, but you shouldn't be looking for my approval anyway. Please don't try and use scientific arguments to support that which is inherently faith-based and is _not_ provable (nor disprovable). Having said that, to try and use the absence of evidence against god as evidence for god is pathetic. Why do theists suddenly (after thousands of years) require proof for their beliefs?!?

    Also, a god that is outside space and time, "kicked-off" the universe at the big-bang, and then left it to its own devices, is starting to sound very different from the Christian god...

    1. Re:absence of logic by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Please don't try and use scientific arguments to support that which is inherently faith-based and is _not_ provable (nor disprovable). Having said that, to try and use the absence of evidence against god as evidence for god is pathetic. Why do theists suddenly (after thousands of years) require proof for their beliefs?!?

      Fair enough. But don't try to list the scientific fields of study that disprove what you just said is disprovable.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
  71. Physical ability by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Japanese and Korean women have dominated many marathon races.

    Paula Radcliffe, an European woman, has broken all marathon records.

    For many years, Europeans dominated long distance races, even after some celebrated victories by the likes of Abebe Bikila and there was an Italian Olympic champion recently.

    Why Kenyans and Ethiopians are dominating now? Because they have set up a well organized training (with very few resources) and train harder than anybody else (some Kenyans that ply they trade in Mexico were surprised at how unwilling local Mexican runners were to do more training, this history is repeated in many other places. Say what you may about excessive training, these Kenyan chaps were more willing to put the effort, the fact that they were winning all races in the Mexican running calendar seems to probe them right).

    And even then you get some Moroccans that beat the heck out of them...

    Something else you forget is that genetic variability amongst people from Africa is far greater between them than in relation to Europeans and Africans.

    When it comes to sprinting, dominated by Caribbean nations and the US, funnily enough the black people in those countries are more likely to have European blood due to the systematic rape of black women by men of European descent during slavery.

    Recently countries like Nigeria and, surprisingly, Saudi Arabia, are generating better sprinters. The reason is not genetic, the interest in the sport has grown and more people train harder to achieve better results.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  72. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just out of curiosity, would you say the same thing about physical attributes?

    ie, are Asians and Europeans just as capable of certain African peoples of sprinting or long distance running?

    I expect there probably are some genetic physiological differences between races, but there are loads of other factors that determine how your skills actually turn out in real life.

    For instance, Finns totally dominated long-distance running from the 1920's until the 1940's. This was a time when, in the countryside, some kids might be living more than 10 kilometers from the school where they went every day. And I can assure you, they weren't driven there.

    Interestingly, you have a similar situation in many African countries today.

  73. BITCH-100 by tepples · · Score: 1

    As I understand it, IQ tests were largely developed by whites. You'd think that if they were biased, they'd have fiddled it so they came out on top.

    Someone did fiddle it and made a version that's a bitch for people unfamiliar with black urban culture to pass.

  74. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Afrikan? Really? I've met plenty of Africans who use the standard spelling...who exactly uses a new spelling?

    At least these, I can't be bothered to look for more now:

    Afrikaans
    Somali
    Swati
    Tsonga

  75. Re:47 Millions years OLD? Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a scientific interpretation. Of course not. It's probably 47+-2 million years or so. In a relative sense, the fossils at Messel date from the Middle Eocene.

    I don't really see your point. Even if the speculated variation in decay rates due to orbital distance from the Sun were correct (something that is very much still a wild speculation), the amount of variation expected ON the Earth would be minuscule, given that it's orbital distance doesn't vary by much, and the degree to which it varies would average out over the long term and become irrelevant to geological time scales.

  76. Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    It isn't a well established fact at all. Some people think it is, or find it more politically expedient to pretend they think so, but there's no proof at all.

    As to "people in non-Western cultures often have ideas about intelligence that differ fundamentally from those that have shaped Western intelligence tests", well they can think to moon is made of cheese fi they want - it doesn't make it so.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."