Man, if you think kadb (sun's kernel debugger) is good thing, you are seriously shot between the head. I mean, give me printf() any day!
For those of you not in the know, it's based on the 7th Edition debugger and is basically little more than an interactive hex editor that knows about symbol tables...
Have a look at the
Junipe r White Paper about JunOS. Yes, it's FreeBSD, but the TCP/IP stack was completely gutted and replaced. If you go through the paper, there are a number of other areas where it differs from standard FreeBSD, too.
I'm a FreeBSD fan, but I'm interested in the truth, too!
Also, don't forget that Juniper do contribute stuff back to the FreeBSD code base even though they don't give the whole OS away for free. Which they couldn't do with a GPL-licensed piece of software.
The BSD version numbers were legally required to stay at version 4.something. I think AT&T made this requirement in the early 80's when they started selling System V (because bigger version numbers are always better:-). I don't have a link to back this information up though. If somebody could provide that, I'd appreciate it.
If you go to mckusick.com, you can buy a 4 CD set containing all the original BSD src. However, you will need to have an ancient Unix source license, according to the web page. There's a link on how to get one listed on the web page.
It's just reccomendations. If you want to install your daemon in/etc, then go right ahead, be like 7th Edition. But what this is, is a set of ideas on how best to do things so that users/administrators know what will happen when they install your program and also so that it interoperates nicely with that system.
Well, if I wasn't posting to this thread, I'd definitely score you down as a troll.
Linux has one hell of a lot of users. Granted, OpenBSD has nowhere near as many. But hey, Windows has even more users. Does that make it that much better? And usage of *all* of these operating systems is growing. Don't believe what the magazines and polls tell you. The fact of the matter is that when you've got an OS up for ftp, there is *no* *way* to tell how many users it has. Period.
In fact, the rest of the world is moving towards BSD in a big way. Big starting with yahoo and hotmail, probably two of the largest sites on the web.
Basically, just put your prejudices down and give it a try. It works, and pretty well. Remember, a Linux monopoly would be just as bad as the current Microsoft monopoly.
This is the precise reason that I switched to FreeBSD 5 years ago. CVSup for the whole system rocks! Linux was never very good at being coordinated enough to get out of my way.
I'm not saying Linux is bad, just that it wasn't for me!
I've recently had a very frustrating experience trying to get FreeBSD 4.0 working on a large drive. I'll share it here because it might be useful for others. It also helps to have another FreeBSD machine around already installed...
First, you have to patch and rebuild/boot/boot[12] and/boot/loader (mail me if you want my copies). There is a patch for LBA support in/boot/loader available in the FreeBSD-hackers archive. I sure hope this patch makes it in to FreeBSD 4.1, because installing without it is a real pain.
Once you have these new versions, go ahead and install FreeBSD normally. But, before you reboot, goto the shell screen (ALT-F4) and copy your new versions of/boot/boot[12] and/boot/loader into your newly installed partition.
Then, you need to update the FreeBSD slice with boot1 and boot2: disklabel -r -B ad0 (assuming this is drive C:).
Finally, you need to update boot0 to know about the LBA extensions (it calls this packet mode). Use boot0cfg -v -o packet ad0.
Good luck, and I *really* hope that this makes it into FreeBSD 4.1, because it's a pain in the butt for those of use installing into partitions over 8Gb...
So, I have to ask: why didn't ISO take off due to the issues with IPv4, thus giving IPv6 a chance to fill the niche?
Basically because there was too much political infighting in the standards committees. So you ended up with all sorts of features that were of no use to anybody except one particular vendor. As opposed to the IETF, which worked things out on technical merit. What resulted from the ISO was incredibly tricky to implement correctly, and the specs had plenty of gray areas which could frequently lead to incompatibility.
Not that people didn't try. If you look back through rfc-index.txt, you can see efforts like TUBA and IP with CLNP where people tried to bring some of the good features of ISO networking into IP.
Also, the experience of putting the Internet together gave the IETF people a far better insight into the problems of scaling very large networks than the people on the ISO committees (IMHO).
Hey, have you seen a Fujitsu Line Printer? We have one at each of our branches, plus several at our head office and they weigh about 6 hundredweight each. Which is getting close to that 2.5 tonnes for the babbage printer... Unfortunately, Fujitsu don't appear to have them on their web site, as production was stopped several years ago.
Whilst I agree with you in part, XEmacs is pretty good with the integration side of things. If you're looking for things like completion and tips, try looking at SciTe, which uses the Scintilla widget (http://www.scintilla.org/). It's used in the Python for Windows package and is very effective.
Honestly, it is. You just the let the default install do it's thing, then set up SWAT in inetd. After that, it's *totally* web based admin. Not only that, it's one of the few *good* web based admin tools I've seen.
I never thought I'd do this, but now, I fire up a browser rather than go and edit the config file with vi. It's that easy.
Well, I lived there for 18 years, and I'm still not classified as Welsh. Mind you, it's probably the lack of accent more than anything else. Lord knows why.
Share and Enjoy? Awful motto for a great product. Microsoft is the equivalent of Sirius Cybernetics Corp not SAMBA.
I know that by association it's awful, but it makes so much sense! Just set up your shares with Samba and enjoy the peace and quiet of having the bloody thing working!
And judging by the interview, he's definitely a mix of Ford and Zaphod. Although I have to say I've never met the chap. Something I consider to be entirely my loss now.
I shall leave connections between the Heart of Gold and the Linux kernel up to you... (I'm a FreeBSD nut, anyway)
Finally, an eccentric englishman I can look up to!
I can't believe how many people got you confused with Andrew Tridgell!
And on another note, can we please make the Samba motto "Share & Enjoy!"? (seeing as it's not due to be trademarked by Sirius Cybernetics Corporation for another few millenia...)
Modula-3 is not part of the FreeBSD base install. You are probably getting confused with the fact that a lot of FreeBSD users rely on CVSup, which is used for source-code updates and is written in Modula-3. Most of the time, you don't even need to install Modula-3 at all, you can just use the pre-built binaries of CVSup.
OBTroll: If you're thinking of Modula-3, look at Python:-)
You may well have learned how to use CDE and configure it well, but I bet it took a long time and was an uphill struggle. I've always given up long before. You take a look at KDE or GNOME and see how easy they are to configure. And how much more flexible they are. Yes, CDE is flexible, but flexible in a way that shows it was designed by a comittee. The number of times I've come up against a Solaris box and wanted an XTerm instead of a DTTerm! It always takes me ages to remember how to configure it (clue: You can't use the GUI tools).
No to mention the fact that it's butt ugly and uses Motif which, while it *is* an industry standard, is still not liked by most people. Witness the threads in the last slashdot story about Motif.
Well, I've known Nik for 8 years now, on and off and he's a very cool guy with the energy of 10,000 elephants. He's been using FreeBSD since '93 or '94 and has done enourmous good work for it as a committer with the documentation project, as well as excellent advocacy work elsewhere.
There, I think he owes me an alcohol-free beer now.:-)
Slashdot Mirror
Man, if you think kadb (sun's kernel debugger) is good thing, you are seriously shot between the head. I mean, give me printf() any day!
For those of you not in the know, it's based on the 7th Edition debugger and is basically little more than an interactive hex editor that knows about symbol tables...
Have a look at the Junipe r White Paper about JunOS. Yes, it's FreeBSD, but the TCP/IP stack was completely gutted and replaced. If you go through the paper, there are a number of other areas where it differs from standard FreeBSD, too.
I'm a FreeBSD fan, but I'm interested in the truth, too!
Also, don't forget that Juniper do contribute stuff back to the FreeBSD code base even though they don't give the whole OS away for free. Which they couldn't do with a GPL-licensed piece of software.
-Dom
It bugs me when people use cat(1) when they don't need to. What the hell is wrong with:
% wc -l *.[ch]
It saves 1 process!
Anyway, with that little bit off-topicness over with, I'll head back over to comp.unix.shell...
The BSD version numbers were legally required to stay at version 4.something. I think AT&T made this requirement in the early 80's when they started selling System V (because bigger version numbers are always better :-). I don't have a link to back this information up though. If somebody could provide that, I'd appreciate it.
-Dom
If you go to mckusick.com, you can buy a 4 CD set containing all the original BSD src. However, you will need to have an ancient Unix source license, according to the web page. There's a link on how to get one listed on the web page.
Not at all.
/etc, then go right ahead, be like 7th Edition. But what this is, is a set of ideas on how best to do things so that users/administrators know what will happen when they install your program and also so that it interoperates nicely with that system.
It's just reccomendations. If you want to install your daemon in
-Dom
For details, see here.
I also liked maybe@yes.no...
-Dom
Well, if I wasn't posting to this thread, I'd definitely score you down as a troll.
Linux has one hell of a lot of users. Granted, OpenBSD has nowhere near as many. But hey, Windows has even more users. Does that make it that much better? And usage of *all* of these operating systems is growing. Don't believe what the magazines and polls tell you. The fact of the matter is that when you've got an OS up for ftp, there is *no* *way* to tell how many users it has. Period.
In fact, the rest of the world is moving towards BSD in a big way. Big starting with yahoo and hotmail, probably two of the largest sites on the web.
Basically, just put your prejudices down and give it a try. It works, and pretty well. Remember, a Linux monopoly would be just as bad as the current Microsoft monopoly.
-Dom
This is the precise reason that I switched to FreeBSD 5 years ago. CVSup for the whole system rocks! Linux was never very good at being coordinated enough to get out of my way.
I'm not saying Linux is bad, just that it wasn't for me!
I'd love to link directly to these, but the sight appears to be down right now.
-Dom
I've recently had a very frustrating experience trying to get FreeBSD 4.0 working on a large drive. I'll share it here because it might be useful for others. It also helps to have another FreeBSD machine around already installed...
/boot/boot[12] and /boot/loader (mail me if you want my copies). There is a patch for LBA support in /boot/loader available in the FreeBSD-hackers archive. I sure hope this patch makes it in to FreeBSD 4.1, because installing without it is a real pain.
/boot/boot[12] and /boot/loader into your newly installed partition.
First, you have to patch and rebuild
Once you have these new versions, go ahead and install FreeBSD normally. But, before you reboot, goto the shell screen (ALT-F4) and copy your new versions of
Then, you need to update the FreeBSD slice with boot1 and boot2: disklabel -r -B ad0 (assuming this is drive C:).
Finally, you need to update boot0 to know about the LBA extensions (it calls this packet mode). Use boot0cfg -v -o packet ad0.
Good luck, and I *really* hope that this makes it into FreeBSD 4.1, because it's a pain in the butt for those of use installing into partitions over 8Gb...
-Dom
Basically because there was too much political infighting in the standards committees. So you ended up with all sorts of features that were of no use to anybody except one particular vendor. As opposed to the IETF, which worked things out on technical merit. What resulted from the ISO was incredibly tricky to implement correctly, and the specs had plenty of gray areas which could frequently lead to incompatibility.
Not that people didn't try. If you look back through rfc-index.txt, you can see efforts like TUBA and IP with CLNP where people tried to bring some of the good features of ISO networking into IP.
Also, the experience of putting the Internet together gave the IETF people a far better insight into the problems of scaling very large networks than the people on the ISO committees (IMHO).
Hey, have you seen a Fujitsu Line Printer? We have one at each of our branches, plus several at our head office and they weigh about 6 hundredweight each. Which is getting close to that 2.5 tonnes for the babbage printer... Unfortunately, Fujitsu don't appear to have them on their web site, as production was stopped several years ago.
Whilst I agree with you in part, XEmacs is pretty good with the integration side of things. If you're looking for things like completion and tips, try looking at SciTe, which uses the Scintilla widget (http://www.scintilla.org/). It's used in the Python for Windows package and is very effective.
So where are the non-cisco implementations of EIGRP?
(yes, I know that we should all be using OSPF instead anyway).
Honestly, it is. You just the let the default install do it's thing, then set up SWAT in inetd. After that, it's *totally* web based admin. Not only that, it's one of the few *good* web based admin tools I've seen.
I never thought I'd do this, but now, I fire up a browser rather than go and edit the config file with vi. It's that easy.
Well, I lived there for 18 years, and I'm still not classified as Welsh. Mind you, it's probably the lack of accent more than anything else. Lord knows why.
I know that by association it's awful, but it makes so much sense! Just set up your shares with Samba and enjoy the peace and quiet of having the bloody thing working!
And judging by the interview, he's definitely a mix of Ford and Zaphod. Although I have to say I've never met the chap. Something I consider to be entirely my loss now.
I shall leave connections between the Heart of Gold and the Linux kernel up to you... (I'm a FreeBSD nut, anyway)
No he's not, he just lives in Wales. He was born in (I think) Birmingham.
Alan Cox? Swansea. I say nothing else. He has not the decency to go further West.
Finally, an eccentric englishman I can look up to!
I can't believe how many people got you confused with Andrew Tridgell!
And on another note, can we please make the Samba motto "Share & Enjoy!"? (seeing as it's not due to be trademarked by Sirius Cybernetics Corporation for another few millenia...)
Modula-3 is not part of the FreeBSD base install. You are probably getting confused with the fact that a lot of FreeBSD users rely on CVSup, which is used for source-code updates and is written in Modula-3. Most of the time, you don't even need to install Modula-3 at all, you can just use the pre-built binaries of CVSup.
OBTroll: If you're thinking of Modula-3, look at Python :-)
You may well have learned how to use CDE and configure it well, but I bet it took a long time and was an uphill struggle. I've always given up long before. You take a look at KDE or GNOME and see how easy they are to configure. And how much more flexible they are. Yes, CDE is flexible, but flexible in a way that shows it was designed by a comittee. The number of times I've come up against a Solaris box and wanted an XTerm instead of a DTTerm! It always takes me ages to remember how to configure it (clue: You can't use the GUI tools).
No to mention the fact that it's butt ugly and uses Motif which, while it *is* an industry standard, is still not liked by most people. Witness the threads in the last slashdot story about Motif.
Well, I've known Nik for 8 years now, on and off and he's a very cool guy with the energy of 10,000 elephants. He's been using FreeBSD since '93 or '94 and has done enourmous good work for it as a committer with the documentation project, as well as excellent advocacy work elsewhere.
:-)
There, I think he owes me an alcohol-free beer now.
-Dom
Aside from your blatant trolling, I'm sure that quite a few people would be interested in a PL/1 compiler being freely available. I certainly would.
Would you mind contacting me with details on how I might obtain it?
Many thanks,
-Dom2