First of all I asked to name solutions which do what I listed before, mind you the list is much larger than you make of it.
> mkLinux, HURD, MacOS X
All related to Mach, but all are different in approach. With regard to OSX, this I already explained to your friend. With regard to Mklinux (very small user/developer base), I won't compare it to LinuxPPC, because the much higher popularity of LinuxPPC gets the message across by itself.
With regard to Hurd I would recommend that you do some research as just like with MacOS X you are wrong.
> And you also forget, Exec *IS NOT A KERNEL*.
Carl Sassenrath seems to think otherwise: "So, I came up with what I guess was one of the very first micro-kernel designs for a multitasking kernel."
> except by sychophants that try and beef up > what AmigaOS is.
What a way to speak of Carl Sassenrath... IMO the man is a genius.:)
> The key difference here is that Exec no longer > handles any of the low-level work; Quark does.
For example the Exec does the scheduling with regard to what takes place within the ABOX.
The Tao Group is the foundation partner for the AmigaDE, Amiga Inc has a license to adjust their OS to suit Amiga's needs. It often goes like this, for instance AmigaDOS was licensed by big C= from 3rd parties as well.
Darwin is just Apple's name for what they've put under the hood of OS X. It is based on the Mach microkernel (the thing the OS uses to access the hardware) and uses the FreeBSD command line (terminal). Darwin does not use a two different kernels approach like MorphOS or Amithlon do.
I would recommend that you do some searching on the web, that's all from me with regard to this side-thread.
Your personal insults are childish, if you continue at this level I will not respond to your messages.
> Quite a few microkernel based OSes use what > you call the 2 kernel approach... Are they > Amithlon like as well?
Name a few, which do what I have listed before?
> In Amithlon, you have a FULLY working linux > kernel with it's own drivers and stuff... With > MorphOS, you've got a minimal microkernel, on > which A/Box runs.
Actually generally this is more efficient. In fact this was a design goal and one of the excellent benefits of Amithlon, that many drivers are fully native.
Also Linux offers Amithlon a large scala of device drivers to take advantage of, offering people the choice between a very wide variety of hardware.
> All but the VERY lowlevel drivers are in the > A/Box.
According to the people I have discussed this with (MorphOS team), also MorphOS will gradually start to move the drivers towards fully native implementations. (outside the ABOX)
I think you have misread something, I did not state that MorphOS was an emulator. I said it was similar to Wine but in usage more similar to Amithlon.
- Both Amithlon and MorphOS use a 2 kernel approach. - Both hide the underlying technology from the user. - With both OSes users are able to use their old 68k AmigaOS 3.x enviroment. (In the case of Amithlon only, but components could be replaced with x86 native versions). - Both are able to executive native CPU applications. Amithlon can also executive x86 native AmigaOS applications and MorphOS can also execute PPC native AmigaOS applications.
Did I state that Quark wasn't a microkernel? Exec itself has probably one of the first microkernel-like designs developed. But for example QNX also has a very cool microkernel called, Neutrino.
Do note that everything you currently see within those screenshots is the ABOX environment. This ABOX uses a reimplemented Exec kernel (AmigaOS) on top of an "alien" (read non AmigaOS-like) kernel called Quark(/MorphOS), with this kernel(/OS) being completely hidden from the user. So currently this OS uses a two kernel approach, unlike AmigaOS4 which will use a new fully native ExecSG kernel with alot more added features (compared to the classic Exec or MorphOS' reimplemented AmigaOS3.1 Exec).
This approach could be largely compared to Wine, but is in use and approach more similar to the Amithlon AmigaOS emulator, as its hides the underlying technology completely from the user. In the case of Amithlon this is Linux.
For instance the directory structure, startup-scripts, components structure and features are currently the same or similar to the way the classic AmigaOS was designed. Instead of to the PPC native Ambient environment, MorphOS users are even able to use the classic AmigaOS3.1 Workbench environment on top of this MorphOS/ABOX environment. Regarding to what the QBOX environment will be like in usage (i.e. AmigaOS-like) in the future, very little is actually still known.
That this all is possible can mainly be attributed to the fact that the classic AmigaOS is extremely modular, for most OS components there are several 3rd party alternatives available. For example Workbench/Magellan/Scalos, Reaction/MUI or Picasso/Cybergraphix etc.
The only part which I found rather misleading, was the AmigaOS4 vs MorphOS part.
> It's very difficult to compare the implementations of > the two as Amiga have never really shown much working in > public yet
Actually quite alot has been showed to the public, however components weren't fully integrated yet. But with regard to these components quite alot was shown, and is known to the Amiga public already.
> We are one of the few companies in the world who design > our own hardware and write our own OS (Amiga do > neither).
Amiga does work on its own operating system and related technologies (AmigaDE/AA). But they have partnered with 3rd parties as well to build a new Amiga desktop computer.
Actually I greatly prefer partnerships instead of having everything under one hood.
The Amiga introduced people to true Multimedia computing in 1985, with regard to this it was around a decade ahead compared to other computing systems.
For instance the Amiga was the first home computer to be able to dislay photo-realistic graphics with up to 4096 colors simultaneously. The computer combined this with stereo sound, 32-bit pre-emptive multitaking, advanced GUI/CLI while the OS offered an understandable, compact/efficient and modular design.
What made the Amiga special was the sum of all its great abilities (genlockable graphics, different simultaneous resolution displays, screens/workspaces, standard TV support, autoconfig, etc). Just like humans don't differ too much from apes genetically, our abilities go far beyond our ancestors. The Amiga was a true milestone for modern computing.
More info about what made the Amiga so special when it was released can be read here.
For Retro fans interested in c64 technology and nostalgia, the upcoming Amiga Messe in Aachen may be of interest.
Next to Amiga products, Jeri Ellsworth will travel from the US to the show to launch a new c64 compatible clone, called the c-one.
The c-one is a MicroATX form factor board, with at its core a (65c816 processor running approximately at 20 MHz) the 65c816 is a 6502 compatible processor with a 24 bit address range extra instructions that access the full memory range are added to the 6502 core.
Another interesting product which will be sold at the Aachen fair is the new Catweasel MK3 PCI/Flipper board. This PCI board can be used with the c-one, AmigaOne boards, Pegasos boards, Classic Amigas and even ordinary PCs to read just about any disk format using ordinary mainstream diskdrives (including 880kb/1,76 MB Amiga disks and c64 disks!), connect digital c64/Amiga/Atari joysticks, connect Amiga keyboards or even add a real c64 SID soundchip'.
Another interesting product which will be sold at the Aachen fair is the new Catweasel MK3 PCI/Flipper board. This PCI board can be used with AmigaOne boards, Pegasos boards, Classic Amigas and even ordinary PCs to read just about any disk format using ordinary mainstream diskdrives (including 880kb/1,76 MB Amiga disks), connect digital c64/Amiga/Atari joysticks, connect Amiga keyboards or even add a real c64 SID soundchip'.
BTW the Amiga computer was originally planned by the development team to become a full computer. But at the time the investors were only interested in a game console, so the team decided to make a console which could afterwards be expanded to a full desktop system (just like the CD32).
Later when the games market did not look all that promising anymore, it was decides to build a complete system again, with the A1000 being the end result.
In 1985 it was the first desktop computer to offer photorealistic graphics with up to 4096 colors simultaneously, 32-bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI and great stereo sound.
Actually these are just some preview screenshots by some AmigaOS programmers demonstrating some OS functionality. The are some great graphics artists doing their best for the platform as well, and soon (probably within a week) you will see new AmigaOS4 screenshots, likely reflecting this.
Note however that the GUI can be fully customized to suit the taste of the user. Similar but more advanced as you can currently do with classic AmigaOS. Here you can view some examples of what can be done with the GUI with even the classic AmigaOS.
Big German Amiga Fair - 7th and 8th of December
on
PPC Amigas Go On Sale
·
· Score: 2, Informative
Individual Computers is organizing this year's big German Amiga fair. The new AmigaOne/AmigaOS4 systems, Pegasos/MoprhOS systems and even a new ATX c64 successor motherboards, called the c-one will be presented at this fair!
To see what last year's main German Amiga Fair was like, watch this great video coverage. The upcoming big German Amiga fair will be held on the 7th and 8th of December 2002 at the Eurogress in Aachen.
Actually they do. Let me explain, in 1994 my Amiga was equiped with a cool 4MB Retina BLT Z3 graphic board (1900×1426 8bit 70 Hz or 1024×768 24bit) and 16-bit Toccata soundcard (48KHz).
The Amiga market was already moving towards 3rd party developed hardware solutions back then, sadly this slowed down due to the unfortunate situation of the time. But fellow Amiga users who only owned standard unexpanded Amigas drooled all over my machine, so I believe more people would have expanded their Amigas with 3rd party hardware solutions, if they could afford it at the time.
These new Amigas will run a PPC native port of AmigaOS and the hardware is fully licensed, so IMO an Amiga. (BTW Future 3rd party PCI solutions are planned for adding legacy classic Amiga hardware support.)
For the latest new on AmigaOS4/AmigaOne
on
PPC Amigas Go On Sale
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Here you can find a summ up of what has been announced at a recent Amiga show held in the UK. The article includes links to show reports and Audio recording from the presentations done by Amiga Inc, Hyperion and Eyetech.
Here you can read an article which takes a closer look at the AmigaOS4/AmigaOne solution. The article is a couple of months old and does not include the latest informations given at the WoASE show.
And finally here you can find more information about MorphOS/Pegasos, a promising Amiga-like rival system.
Individual Computers is also organizing this year's big German Amiga fair. Next to the Catweasel MK3 PCI/Flipper board, new AmigaOne, Pegasos and even a new ATX c64 successor motherboards, called the c-one will be sold at this fair!
To see what last year's main German Amiga Fair was like, watch this great video coverage. The upcoming big German Amiga fair will be held on the 7th and 8th of December 2002 at the Eurogress in Aachen.
The new Amiga will use mainstream graphics chips like the Matrox Parhelia or ATi Radeon chips.
At the time when the Amiga was released there were no good graphics solutions available. So Amiga could finally show the world what multimedia computing was like.
Nowadays mainstream graphic chips are good enough. There are several big graphics companies all spending millions of dollars on Graphic chip development. So today it is best to use of the shelf components and concetrate on the multimedia OS.
Do note however that many Amiga users have upgraded their machines with graphic boards and sound cards based on mainstream hardware chips. (There are even Zorro/PCI bridges available to allow usage of standard mainstream hardware) So actually this isn`t something entirely new.
The boards including AmigaOS4, AC97 sound, modem, 10/100 ethernet and 600 Mhz G3 should cost around 550 USD.
If you want to have an indication of what a complete system would cost you. Check out these pre-order (non binding) links at Computer City, an AmigaOne dealer in the Netherlands. English and Dutch.
The board *will* come with an AC97 sound chip. And modem, 10/100 ethernet, 600 MHz CPU and not to forget AmigaOS4. This all will const around 550 USD.
No very expensive considering that Apple is able to sell millions of board to cover their development costs. The more people buy AmigaOnes the cheaper the boards/AmigaOS4 will eventually be. It's ALWAYS a chicken and the egg situation. That won't stop many within the Amiga community though as they mainly care about running AmigaOS4.
Also note that unlike with Apple systems you will be able to use ordinary (cheaper) PC graphics cards. So you don't need to buy a graphics card with a special MacOS ROM, although several such Mac cards are likely to get supported by AmigaOS as well.
Slashdot Mirror
First of all I asked to name solutions which do what I listed before, mind you the list is much larger than you make of it.
:)
> mkLinux, HURD, MacOS X
All related to Mach, but all are different in approach. With regard to OSX, this I already explained to your friend. With regard to Mklinux (very small user/developer base), I won't compare it to LinuxPPC, because the much higher popularity of LinuxPPC gets the message across by itself.
With regard to Hurd I would recommend that you do some research as just like with MacOS X you are wrong.
> And you also forget, Exec *IS NOT A KERNEL*.
Carl Sassenrath seems to think otherwise: "So, I came up with what I guess was one of the very first micro-kernel designs for a multitasking kernel."
> except by sychophants that try and beef up
> what AmigaOS is.
What a way to speak of Carl Sassenrath... IMO the man is a genius.
> The key difference here is that Exec no longer
> handles any of the low-level work; Quark does.
For example the Exec does the scheduling with regard to what takes place within the ABOX.
You dissapoint me with this posting Nathaniel.
The Tao Group is the foundation partner for the AmigaDE, Amiga Inc has a license to adjust their OS to suit Amiga's needs. It often goes like this, for instance AmigaDOS was licensed by big C= from 3rd parties as well.
Darwin is just Apple's name for what they've put under the hood of OS X. It is based on the Mach microkernel (the thing the OS uses to access the hardware) and uses the FreeBSD command line (terminal). Darwin does not use a two different kernels approach like MorphOS or Amithlon do.
I would recommend that you do some searching on the web, that's all from me with regard to this side-thread.
Darwin is the core of Mac OS X. The Darwin kernel is based on FreeBSD and Mach 3.0.
Your personal insults are childish, if you continue at this level I will not respond to your messages.
> Quite a few microkernel based OSes use what
> you call the 2 kernel approach... Are they
> Amithlon like as well?
Name a few, which do what I have listed before?
> In Amithlon, you have a FULLY working linux
> kernel with it's own drivers and stuff... With
> MorphOS, you've got a minimal microkernel, on
> which A/Box runs.
Actually generally this is more efficient. In fact this was a design goal and one of the excellent benefits of Amithlon, that many drivers are fully native.
Also Linux offers Amithlon a large scala of device drivers to take advantage of, offering people the choice between a very wide variety of hardware.
> All but the VERY lowlevel drivers are in the
> A/Box.
According to the people I have discussed this with (MorphOS team), also MorphOS will gradually start to move the drivers towards fully native implementations. (outside the ABOX)
I think you have misread something, I did not state that MorphOS was an emulator. I said it was similar to Wine but in usage more similar to Amithlon.
- Both Amithlon and MorphOS use a 2 kernel approach.
- Both hide the underlying technology from the user.
- With both OSes users are able to use their old 68k AmigaOS 3.x enviroment. (In the case of Amithlon only, but components could be replaced with x86 native versions).
- Both are able to executive native CPU applications. Amithlon can also executive x86 native AmigaOS applications and MorphOS can also execute PPC native AmigaOS applications.
Did I state that Quark wasn't a microkernel? Exec itself has probably one of the first microkernel-like designs developed. But for example QNX also has a very cool microkernel called, Neutrino.
Incorrect both Quake and Quake2 are also available for the classic Amiga.
Of Quake both 68k and PPC versions are available. Quake2 can only be used bwith PPC equiped Amigas.
Do note that everything you currently see within those screenshots is the ABOX environment. This ABOX uses a reimplemented Exec kernel (AmigaOS) on top of an "alien" (read non AmigaOS-like) kernel called Quark(/MorphOS), with this kernel(/OS) being completely hidden from the user. So currently this OS uses a two kernel approach, unlike AmigaOS4 which will use a new fully native ExecSG kernel with alot more added features (compared to the classic Exec or MorphOS' reimplemented AmigaOS3.1 Exec).
This approach could be largely compared to Wine, but is in use and approach more similar to the Amithlon AmigaOS emulator, as its hides the underlying technology completely from the user. In the case of Amithlon this is Linux.
For instance the directory structure, startup-scripts, components structure and features are currently the same or similar to the way the classic AmigaOS was designed. Instead of to the PPC native Ambient environment, MorphOS users are even able to use the classic AmigaOS3.1 Workbench environment on top of this MorphOS/ABOX environment. Regarding to what the QBOX environment will be like in usage (i.e. AmigaOS-like) in the future, very little is actually still known.
That this all is possible can mainly be attributed to the fact that the classic AmigaOS is extremely modular, for most OS components there are several 3rd party alternatives available. For example Workbench/Magellan/Scalos, Reaction/MUI or Picasso/Cybergraphix etc.
The only part which I found rather misleading, was the AmigaOS4 vs MorphOS part.
> It's very difficult to compare the implementations of
> the two as Amiga have never really shown much working in
> public yet
Actually quite alot has been showed to the public, however components weren't fully integrated yet. But with regard to these components quite alot was shown, and is known to the Amiga public already.
> We are one of the few companies in the world who design
> our own hardware and write our own OS (Amiga do
> neither).
Amiga does work on its own operating system and related technologies (AmigaDE/AA). But they have partnered with 3rd parties as well to build a new Amiga desktop computer.
Actually I greatly prefer partnerships instead of having everything under one hood.
The Amiga introduced people to true Multimedia computing in 1985, with regard to this it was around a decade ahead compared to other computing systems.
For instance the Amiga was the first home computer to be able to dislay photo-realistic graphics with up to 4096 colors simultaneously. The computer combined this with stereo sound, 32-bit pre-emptive multitaking, advanced GUI/CLI while the OS offered an understandable, compact/efficient and modular design.
What made the Amiga special was the sum of all its great abilities (genlockable graphics, different simultaneous resolution displays, screens/workspaces, standard TV support, autoconfig, etc). Just like humans don't differ too much from apes genetically, our abilities go far beyond our ancestors. The Amiga was a true milestone for modern computing.
More info about what made the Amiga so special when it was released can be read here.
For Retro fans interested in c64 technology and nostalgia, the upcoming Amiga Messe in Aachen may be of interest.
g
Next to Amiga products, Jeri Ellsworth will travel from the US to the show to launch a new c64 compatible clone, called the c-one.
The c-one is a MicroATX form factor board, with at its core a (65c816 processor running approximately at 20 MHz) the 65c816 is a 6502 compatible processor with a 24 bit address range extra instructions that access the full memory range are added to the 6502 core.
Another interesting product which will be sold at the Aachen fair is the new Catweasel MK3 PCI/Flipper board. This PCI board can be used with the c-one, AmigaOne boards, Pegasos boards, Classic Amigas and even ordinary PCs to read just about any disk format using ordinary mainstream diskdrives (including 880kb/1,76 MB Amiga disks and c64 disks!), connect digital c64/Amiga/Atari joysticks, connect Amiga keyboards or even add a real c64 SID soundchip'.
Here's a picture:
http://home.t-online.de/home/indcomp/bin/cwmk3.jp
For more information about this Catweasel product look here.
Another interesting product which will be sold at the Aachen fair is the new Catweasel MK3 PCI/Flipper board. This PCI board can be used with AmigaOne boards, Pegasos boards, Classic Amigas and even ordinary PCs to read just about any disk format using ordinary mainstream diskdrives (including 880kb/1,76 MB Amiga disks), connect digital c64/Amiga/Atari joysticks, connect Amiga keyboards or even add a real c64 SID soundchip'.
g
Here's a picture:
http://home.t-online.de/home/indcomp/bin/cwmk3.jp
For more infor turn here.
Previous slashdot coverage.
Also interesting for Retro fans is that an ATX form factor c64 clone will be launched at the upcoming fair as well. (No kidding!)
For more information on this upcoming show in Aachen turn here.
Some further background info on MorphOS can be read here and here.
To see what last year's big Amiga fair is like, here you can see a welldone video coverage of last year's show.
BTW the Amiga computer was originally planned by the development team to become a full computer. But at the time the investors were only interested in a game console, so the team decided to make a console which could afterwards be expanded to a full desktop system (just like the CD32).
Later when the games market did not look all that promising anymore, it was decides to build a complete system again, with the A1000 being the end result.
In 1985 it was the first desktop computer to offer photorealistic graphics with up to 4096 colors simultaneously, 32-bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI and great stereo sound.
Well there are quite a few companies planning games for new AmigaOS4/AmigaDE poweres systems.
Of course Hyperion themselves (who BTW just released Quake2 + source code at the recent WoA show) has AmigaOS licenses for games including:
Herectic2, Shogo and Freespace (all of which are already available for classic Amigas and perform very well, even on low powered hybrid systems)
The also own licenses for porting Worms: Armageddon, Sin, Soldier of Fortune and a couple of other games and applications.
Here at AmigaFlame you can read about a few other planned software titles.
Actually these are just some preview screenshots by some AmigaOS programmers demonstrating some OS functionality. The are some great graphics artists doing their best for the platform as well, and soon (probably within a week) you will see new AmigaOS4 screenshots, likely reflecting this.
Note however that the GUI can be fully customized to suit the taste of the user. Similar but more advanced as you can currently do with classic AmigaOS. Here you can view some examples of what can be done with the GUI with even the classic AmigaOS.
Individual Computers is organizing this year's big German Amiga fair. The new AmigaOne/AmigaOS4 systems, Pegasos/MoprhOS systems and even a new ATX c64 successor motherboards, called the c-one will be presented at this fair!
To see what last year's main German Amiga Fair was like, watch this great video coverage. The upcoming big German Amiga fair will be held on the 7th and 8th of December 2002 at the Eurogress in Aachen.
Actually they do. Let me explain, in 1994 my Amiga was equiped with a cool 4MB Retina BLT Z3 graphic board (1900×1426 8bit 70 Hz or 1024×768 24bit) and 16-bit Toccata soundcard (48KHz).
The Amiga market was already moving towards 3rd party developed hardware solutions back then, sadly this slowed down due to the unfortunate situation of the time. But fellow Amiga users who only owned standard unexpanded Amigas drooled all over my machine, so I believe more people would have expanded their Amigas with 3rd party hardware solutions, if they could afford it at the time.
These new Amigas will run a PPC native port of AmigaOS and the hardware is fully licensed, so IMO an Amiga. (BTW Future 3rd party PCI solutions are planned for adding legacy classic Amiga hardware support.)
Here you can find a summ up of what has been announced at a recent Amiga show held in the UK. The article includes links to show reports and Audio recording from the presentations done by Amiga Inc, Hyperion and Eyetech.
Here you can read an article which takes a closer look at the AmigaOS4/AmigaOne solution. The article is a couple of months old and does not include the latest informations given at the WoASE show.
And finally here you can find more information about MorphOS/Pegasos, a promising Amiga-like rival system.
Individual Computers is also organizing this year's big German Amiga fair. Next to the Catweasel MK3 PCI/Flipper board, new AmigaOne, Pegasos and even a new ATX c64 successor motherboards, called the c-one will be sold at this fair!
To see what last year's main German Amiga Fair was like, watch this great video coverage. The upcoming big German Amiga fair will be held on the 7th and 8th of December 2002 at the Eurogress in Aachen.
Try WinUAE for Windows or UAE for Linux. And for demos Back2Roots is a good source.
The new Amiga will use mainstream graphics chips like the Matrox Parhelia or ATi Radeon chips.
At the time when the Amiga was released there were no good graphics solutions available. So Amiga could finally show the world what multimedia computing was like.
Nowadays mainstream graphic chips are good enough. There are several big graphics companies all spending millions of dollars on Graphic chip development. So today it is best to use of the shelf components and concetrate on the multimedia OS.
Do note however that many Amiga users have upgraded their machines with graphic boards and sound cards based on mainstream hardware chips. (There are even Zorro/PCI bridges available to allow usage of standard mainstream hardware) So actually this isn`t something entirely new.
The boards including AmigaOS4, AC97 sound, modem, 10/100 ethernet and 600 Mhz G3 should cost around 550 USD.
If you want to have an indication of what a complete system would cost you. Check out these pre-order (non binding) links at Computer City, an AmigaOne dealer in the Netherlands. English and Dutch.
The board *will* come with an AC97 sound chip. And modem, 10/100 ethernet, 600 MHz CPU and not to forget AmigaOS4. This all will const around 550 USD.
No very expensive considering that Apple is able to sell millions of board to cover their development costs. The more people buy AmigaOnes the cheaper the boards/AmigaOS4 will eventually be. It's ALWAYS a chicken and the egg situation. That won't stop many within the Amiga community though as they mainly care about running AmigaOS4.
Also note that unlike with Apple systems you will be able to use ordinary (cheaper) PC graphics cards. So you don't need to buy a graphics card with a special MacOS ROM, although several such Mac cards are likely to get supported by AmigaOS as well.