TV over the internet cannot be multicast, meaning a one-to-one stream has to be set up for each viewer. It's HUGELY inefficient. Over-the-air is a one-to-many system. Transmit it just once and that same bandwidth is used for every person watching.
As much as I like the Internet, I don't like this. As a big time proponent of over the air broadcasting, I don't like the rumbles from the FCC about cutting their spectrum even further than it already has been. It serves an important purpose to the poorer people in this country who cannot afford subscription fees, plus allows for some live TV to continue to be available for people who choose to do without cable/satellite. Free over-the-air TV is an excellent compliment to Internet video, particularly for live events like sports which are being broadcast live to many people at once.
With VHF having significant problems and the FCC wanting to chop another 20 UHF channels out, they want to make you pay.
The only computer game I play is Sauerbraten. I'm very much not a gamer, but I find it to be quite enjoyable to play. The biggest plus is that since most people haven't played it, when I ask people to play it, we're on pretty even footing given how little I play.
Remember that this was an "alternate timeline" (I rolled my eyes too) so while THIS Kirk might have been stupid and arrogant about it, the original timeline was probably like what you imagined, and I happen to agree with you on it.
No, I'm not being intentionally stupid, and I'm definitely not ill-informed. How is an average person supposed to know what kind of interference they're seeing without a spectrum analyzer or an analog signal?
"Signal meters" on digital converter boxes are measures of "signal quality." They don't show "signal strength," they show "how decodable is whatever's here." The only signal the box will show you is ATSC signal, it will not register anything for any other types of signal. Even if it did, multipath means that the same TV signal could be showing up all over the place.
I'm currently trying to track down an interference source at home which is destroying half the stations I receive at home. If I were trying to use digital and not the analog to find it, I'd be SOL, because the indoor antenna isn't powerful enough to show signal from the weaker TV stations unless it's aimed right at them. Now that signal's gone, how the hell am I supposed to know where it's coming from without the analog noise patterns? (I still haven't found it, even with the analog noise patterns)
I'd invite you to come and visit and help me track down this interference source (presents a solid black picture on analog 3, and replicates itself as noise elsewhere on the band, including analog 10, the video on analog 13, digital 17 breaks up, digital 3 and 18 and 20 and 41 are wiped out, analog 7/27/38/60 show noise (15 does not), digital 36 drops out). If you can do it with only a digital receiver, I'll buy you lunch and publicly eat my words.
So, the signal is not going to be able to impact TV signals, but will deliver high speed internet to rural areas at the same time? I live in a rural area, and let me tell you TV signals aren't usually strong in those areas. I haven't heard white space devices described as wireless routers (in which case I'd be inclined to believe you), I've heard them described as ISP wireless transmitters. My internet provider is a wireless ISP who operates on 900 MHz, I'm three miles from their tower, and when they signed on, it started trashing my cordless landline phone at home which happened to operate on the same range of frequencies. My TV stations are, with two exceptions, 79 miles away (and I'm on the side of the county closer to the stations, I know people 95 miles out who watch them), and generally require a roof antenna to see. Is a white space device going to successfully detect this and manage to not trash it?
Because switching from analog to digital frees up soon-to-be former TV channels 52-69 for public safety and wireless communications and generates revenue for the government, whereas this would be relocating functional equipment that's not in that reclaimed band and benefits almost nobody.
When the output is a black screen that says "No signal" because noise from the nearby White Space Device is wiping out everything, how does this procedure then work?
Good! Find them some spectrum (be sure to buy it at auction at market rates) and then pay to replace the millions of dollars worth of existing equipment that's currently in use with your new equipment.
Somehow, I imagine it suddenly sounds much less like a good idea.
What kind of receiver would you use for this, and how would an ordinary non-Slashdot-reading person use one?
All I could tell with a portable receiver is that the digital signal is gone, there's nothing to indicate what's causing it. Not to mention portable DTV tuners are awful at receiving clean DTV, let alone anything else.
Companies like Google claim it will allow internet access in rural areas; that's also what they've said about BPL and WiMax and we see that those are being deployed mostly in major cities. The difference is that this time, there's no gain in major cities. (This is so much like BPL it's amazing, able to stomp on everything that's supposed to be in the band, not really benefiting anyone who's supposed to be benefited by this, etc.)
With digital TV coming, white space devices are a very, very bad idea. These devices can start transmitting and wipe out a digital signal, and then how are you going to know what's causing it? At least with analog you could look at the noise in the picture and get some idea of what's causing it. I know they're supposed to detect interference, but as anyone with a cell phone can tell you, dead spots for UHF can be very small and the device could pick what looks like an "empty" channel only for it to be the same as a local TV station.
I'll admit I'm biased in favor of over the air TV, but unlicensed white space devices are a really bad idea. If the FCC wants to license them to allow them to use TV spectrum, that doesn't bother me, but a free-for-all is a terrible idea. In fact, there was a company that did something like that, used a TV license from the FCC and did internet service with it, I want to say it was in Houston. They went out of business, I believe.
I generally like Google, but I am in complete disagreement on this subject.
The FCC doesn't regulate station formats, actually.
And it's Nielsen who determines the market layouts, though the FCC can overrule them (see KPBI Eureka Springs MO). Nielsen is not claiming the data from the ULS, just its DMA data.
Nielsen produces marketing data, like viewership numbers and which station belongs to which market, etc. The technical data from the FCC is publicly available.
The problem is that any listing of TV station relies on those Nielsen numbers because every station crafts their programming and coverage based on those numbers. Further, the FCC uses them in some of their rules! There's one rule that says a station is allowed to exceed the FCC power limit to "match the coverage of the largest station in the market." Well, if you can't get a list of stations in your market, how are you supposed to know which station is the largest?
You misunderstand. This is not technical data, this is marketing data. Which viewers watch which stations, when you buy satellite which local stations you are allowed to see, which markets are larger and smaller than each other, this is the data that Nielsen produces. The technical data is publicly available.
This DMCA notice now makes me worry about my own site. It uses the same list, which is in fact the same list the FCC uses in its own rules and regulations. I've started investigating alternative listing methods, but none of them make sense because they all organize their "target city" by DMA! Listing by state is stupid because a station in New Jersey always targets New York or Philadelphia. Without being able to use the Nielsen DMA, the whole system of listing stations goes to hell.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the FCC making rules that cannot be read because some company has a copyright on it. Examples:
When digital TV stations were signing on, the FCC said commercial stations in the top 100 markets have to be on the air by 05/01/2002. If you don't have permission to look at Nielsen's "copyrighted" list, then how would a station be able to know what market they're in? Not every station is subscribed to Nielsen's data.
In 47CFR73.622(f)(5), the FCC lists an exception that allows stations to expand coverage to match "the largest station in the market." How do you know which stations are in your market if you're not allowed to look at Nielsen's market boundaries?
This whole thing rubs me the wrong way, and makes me nervous.
I'd say, to start with, look for the Silver Sensor UHF antenna (now sold by Phillips as the PHDTV1). Without knowing your location, it's difficult to say what kind of an antenna you'll need, because some areas are UHF only (antennas like the Silver Sensor and the DB2 are good there) and some have or will have (after next year's analog shutoff) digital channels on VHF as well.
If the Silver Sensor does not work for you, return it and try something larger.
I would be interested to know what market you live in (or what stations you receive) that only 3 of 8 are on the air. I can't say I've heard of any market with such low numbers.
I'm aware of all the technical issues concerning it, and I know why they're doing it, that doesn't change the fact that I cannot receive it even with a dedicated VHF antenna despite the fact that every other station off that mountain is fine.
Slashdot Mirror
Yes, and it clearly states on one of their pages you must be on a "multicast-capable ISP." How many ISPs are "multicast capable" do you suppose?
TV over the internet cannot be multicast, meaning a one-to-one stream has to be set up for each viewer. It's HUGELY inefficient. Over-the-air is a one-to-many system. Transmit it just once and that same bandwidth is used for every person watching.
As much as I like the Internet, I don't like this. As a big time proponent of over the air broadcasting, I don't like the rumbles from the FCC about cutting their spectrum even further than it already has been. It serves an important purpose to the poorer people in this country who cannot afford subscription fees, plus allows for some live TV to continue to be available for people who choose to do without cable/satellite. Free over-the-air TV is an excellent compliment to Internet video, particularly for live events like sports which are being broadcast live to many people at once.
With VHF having significant problems and the FCC wanting to chop another 20 UHF channels out, they want to make you pay.
Bear in mind that several years ago, BP merged with another company and kept the BP name. That company? Amoco. AMerican Oil COmpany.
The only computer game I play is Sauerbraten. I'm very much not a gamer, but I find it to be quite enjoyable to play. The biggest plus is that since most people haven't played it, when I ask people to play it, we're on pretty even footing given how little I play.
I definitely recommend it.
Remember that this was an "alternate timeline" (I rolled my eyes too) so while THIS Kirk might have been stupid and arrogant about it, the original timeline was probably like what you imagined, and I happen to agree with you on it.
No, I'm not being intentionally stupid, and I'm definitely not ill-informed. How is an average person supposed to know what kind of interference they're seeing without a spectrum analyzer or an analog signal?
"Signal meters" on digital converter boxes are measures of "signal quality." They don't show "signal strength," they show "how decodable is whatever's here." The only signal the box will show you is ATSC signal, it will not register anything for any other types of signal. Even if it did, multipath means that the same TV signal could be showing up all over the place.
I'm currently trying to track down an interference source at home which is destroying half the stations I receive at home. If I were trying to use digital and not the analog to find it, I'd be SOL, because the indoor antenna isn't powerful enough to show signal from the weaker TV stations unless it's aimed right at them. Now that signal's gone, how the hell am I supposed to know where it's coming from without the analog noise patterns? (I still haven't found it, even with the analog noise patterns)
I'd invite you to come and visit and help me track down this interference source (presents a solid black picture on analog 3, and replicates itself as noise elsewhere on the band, including analog 10, the video on analog 13, digital 17 breaks up, digital 3 and 18 and 20 and 41 are wiped out, analog 7/27/38/60 show noise (15 does not), digital 36 drops out). If you can do it with only a digital receiver, I'll buy you lunch and publicly eat my words.
And furthermore, isn't internet two-way communication? How would it work if it's only a receiver?
Something has to be transmitting somewhere for the receiver to be receiving anything!
Jeez, think for a second.
So, the signal is not going to be able to impact TV signals, but will deliver high speed internet to rural areas at the same time? I live in a rural area, and let me tell you TV signals aren't usually strong in those areas. I haven't heard white space devices described as wireless routers (in which case I'd be inclined to believe you), I've heard them described as ISP wireless transmitters. My internet provider is a wireless ISP who operates on 900 MHz, I'm three miles from their tower, and when they signed on, it started trashing my cordless landline phone at home which happened to operate on the same range of frequencies. My TV stations are, with two exceptions, 79 miles away (and I'm on the side of the county closer to the stations, I know people 95 miles out who watch them), and generally require a roof antenna to see. Is a white space device going to successfully detect this and manage to not trash it?
Because switching from analog to digital frees up soon-to-be former TV channels 52-69 for public safety and wireless communications and generates revenue for the government, whereas this would be relocating functional equipment that's not in that reclaimed band and benefits almost nobody.
When the output is a black screen that says "No signal" because noise from the nearby White Space Device is wiping out everything, how does this procedure then work?
Good! Find them some spectrum (be sure to buy it at auction at market rates) and then pay to replace the millions of dollars worth of existing equipment that's currently in use with your new equipment.
Somehow, I imagine it suddenly sounds much less like a good idea.
What kind of receiver would you use for this, and how would an ordinary non-Slashdot-reading person use one?
All I could tell with a portable receiver is that the digital signal is gone, there's nothing to indicate what's causing it. Not to mention portable DTV tuners are awful at receiving clean DTV, let alone anything else.
I really, really don't like whitespace devices.
Companies like Google claim it will allow internet access in rural areas; that's also what they've said about BPL and WiMax and we see that those are being deployed mostly in major cities. The difference is that this time, there's no gain in major cities. (This is so much like BPL it's amazing, able to stomp on everything that's supposed to be in the band, not really benefiting anyone who's supposed to be benefited by this, etc.)
With digital TV coming, white space devices are a very, very bad idea. These devices can start transmitting and wipe out a digital signal, and then how are you going to know what's causing it? At least with analog you could look at the noise in the picture and get some idea of what's causing it. I know they're supposed to detect interference, but as anyone with a cell phone can tell you, dead spots for UHF can be very small and the device could pick what looks like an "empty" channel only for it to be the same as a local TV station.
I'll admit I'm biased in favor of over the air TV, but unlicensed white space devices are a really bad idea. If the FCC wants to license them to allow them to use TV spectrum, that doesn't bother me, but a free-for-all is a terrible idea. In fact, there was a company that did something like that, used a TV license from the FCC and did internet service with it, I want to say it was in Houston. They went out of business, I believe.
I generally like Google, but I am in complete disagreement on this subject.
WECT and WSFX are sharing WWAY's antenna, so they're all from the exact same location. The difference is power level:
WWAY-DT 1000 kW
WSFX-DT 80 kW
WECT-DT 98 kW (to boost to 710 kW some time after 09/30/08)
WILM-LD is at 15 kW on the side of the tower which WUNJ-DT is on at 1000 kW, but a lot shorter.
UNC is changing their digital lineup tomorrow. HD on 39-1, UNC-KD on 39-2, UNC-NC on 39-3, all 24/7.
The FCC doesn't regulate station formats, actually.
And it's Nielsen who determines the market layouts, though the FCC can overrule them (see KPBI Eureka Springs MO). Nielsen is not claiming the data from the ULS, just its DMA data.
Nielsen produces marketing data, like viewership numbers and which station belongs to which market, etc. The technical data from the FCC is publicly available.
The problem is that any listing of TV station relies on those Nielsen numbers because every station crafts their programming and coverage based on those numbers. Further, the FCC uses them in some of their rules! There's one rule that says a station is allowed to exceed the FCC power limit to "match the coverage of the largest station in the market." Well, if you can't get a list of stations in your market, how are you supposed to know which station is the largest?
You misunderstand. This is not technical data, this is marketing data. Which viewers watch which stations, when you buy satellite which local stations you are allowed to see, which markets are larger and smaller than each other, this is the data that Nielsen produces. The technical data is publicly available.
This DMCA notice now makes me worry about my own site. It uses the same list, which is in fact the same list the FCC uses in its own rules and regulations. I've started investigating alternative listing methods, but none of them make sense because they all organize their "target city" by DMA! Listing by state is stupid because a station in New Jersey always targets New York or Philadelphia. Without being able to use the Nielsen DMA, the whole system of listing stations goes to hell.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the FCC making rules that cannot be read because some company has a copyright on it. Examples:
When digital TV stations were signing on, the FCC said commercial stations in the top 100 markets have to be on the air by 05/01/2002. If you don't have permission to look at Nielsen's "copyrighted" list, then how would a station be able to know what market they're in? Not every station is subscribed to Nielsen's data.
In 47CFR73.622(f)(5), the FCC lists an exception that allows stations to expand coverage to match "the largest station in the market." How do you know which stations are in your market if you're not allowed to look at Nielsen's market boundaries?
This whole thing rubs me the wrong way, and makes me nervous.
I'd say, to start with, look for the Silver Sensor UHF antenna (now sold by Phillips as the PHDTV1). Without knowing your location, it's difficult to say what kind of an antenna you'll need, because some areas are UHF only (antennas like the Silver Sensor and the DB2 are good there) and some have or will have (after next year's analog shutoff) digital channels on VHF as well.
If the Silver Sensor does not work for you, return it and try something larger.
I would be interested to know what market you live in (or what stations you receive) that only 3 of 8 are on the air. I can't say I've heard of any market with such low numbers.
Russ Feingold. He voted against it the first time, in the 99-1 vote. Sadly, he's not running.
So John Edwards read it... I'd be curious to know who the other five were. I imagine Russ Feingold was one, who were the others?
I'm aware of all the technical issues concerning it, and I know why they're doing it, that doesn't change the fact that I cannot receive it even with a dedicated VHF antenna despite the fact that every other station off that mountain is fine.