Re:Yeah but KDE doesn't work.
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
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· Score: 1
It isn't fast, but it runs as well as XP did on that box.
Regardless, if you don't configure Xorg properly, you aren't going to get great performance in Xorg, period.
tjstork said that installing KDE 4 automatically changed his video driver and kernel. The KDE 4 packages don't depend on video driver packages. Installing KDE 4 should not alter the kernel, or install different Xorg packages.
Re:Yeah but KDE doesn't work.
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 1
KDE depends on X11, but there are no package dependencies for specific video drivers.
I just installed openSUSE 11.1 on an old, beat-up Dell notebook with a GeForce 440 with only 32 MB of RAM. It actually manages to run KDE 4 with Desktop Effects turned on.
That is just what is installed by default with the distro. There are Mono hooks for apps like Nautilus as well. How much longer will those Mono hooks be optional?
I've also yet to see a distro that doesn't include these apps as part of their Gnome desktop.
Re:KDE 4 has major UI issues
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 1
Evolution is the latest app to require Mono, and given that Icaza has been pushing for Mono hooks in every app he can, I expect that list of apps to grow. There are already Mono hooks for Nautilus, Gvfs, etc.
"Remove mono-core and here's a list of what gets removed along with it: banshee-1-backend-platform-gnome, banshee-1-extensions-default, banshee-1, banshee-1-backend-engine-gstreamer, banshee-1-backend-platform-unix, beagle-evolution, beagle-gui, beagle, avahi-mono, boo, evolution, dice, f-spot, ggreeter, gnome-do, gnome-desktop-sharp2, gnome-keyring-sharp, gsf-sharp, gtkhtml314-sharp, podsleuth, taglib-sharp, tasque, evolution-sharp, tomboy, gnome-panel-sharp, gmime-sharp, mono-addins, mono-zeroconf-provider-avahi, mono-zeroconf, monsoon, mono-web, mono-winforms, mono-data-sqlite, mono-data, gconf-sharp2, glade-sharp2, gnome-sharp2, art-sharp2, gnome-vfs-sharp2, notify-sharp, ndesk-dbus-glib, ndesk-dbus, gtk-sharp2 and glib-sharp2."
Re:Yeah but KDE doesn't work.
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 1
First off, openSUSE uses Zypper for package management, but you can optionally use Smart if you want.
Package management was greatly improved in 11.0 and 11.1.
Secondly, Miguel Icaza is not a guy I agree with on any level, but hiring him to work on Mono and Gnome has nothing to do with the quality of KDE packages as he has nothing to do with them.
Re:KDE 4 has major UI issues
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 1
I think with 4.2's release, most distos won't have the folder view containment as a plasmoid, but rather will use it as the desktop containment. It will operate like a classic desktop, and no one will notice the difference.
As for a lack of settings, it takes time to rewrite the entire KDE project. At the 4.0 launch, there weren't dialogs to alter the taskbar, even though that functionality existed. It took them time just to add the configuration dialogs. Every month I see more and more functionality and features in the KDE 4 branch.
I still use a KDE 3 desktop session, but given time, I think KDE 4 will offer most of the KDE 3 features, and then some.
Fair enough, though I have read some praise for their Python bindings.
Re:Yeah but KDE doesn't work.
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
The Ubuntu devs screwed up their KDE 4 packages in a bad way. That isn't KDE's fault.
Furthermore, KDE doesn't depend on video drivers. If the Ubuntu devs made a certain Nvidia driver a dependency, then they screwed up big time. KDE does not change your kernel or video driver in any way.
I'm not calling you a liar or saying you didn't have problems. I'm sure your box got hosed somehow, but it is more likely the problem was with Ubuntu's packaging.
It should also be noted that the QT 4/Nvidia problems have largely been remedies. Qt 4 used Xrender heavily, and Nvidia's driver had a piss-poor Xrender implementation. The forthcoming Qt 4.5 is supposed to move away from using Xrender all over the place, and the latest Nvidia driver has much better Xrender support to boot. openSUSE even provides a repo with weekly snapshots of the KDE 4.2 branch compiled against the weekly snapshots of Qt 4.5. In theory it is unstable, but I've had good luck with it so far.
I know I'll get modded Troll for this, but I don't care. Ubuntu has got some serious problems, and is very overrated. openSUSE puts out quality KDE 3, KDE 4 and Gnome desktops. They support all 3 currently (though KDE 3 is being dropped in the future).
Novell hires a large staff of developers that make quality packages, fix upstream bugs, backport features, etc. As much as I hated Novell for the MS deal, Novell is one of the best contributors to several upstream projects, and openSUSE is a fantastic distro.
I can't recommend it enough.
Re:Nokia did not purchasee Trolltech for reselling
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
I realize that Nokia bought Trolltech for Qtopia. Nokia is now trying to push a mobile GTK platform while owning the Qt platform. I did think it was a really smart move to give Nokia n810 tablets to KDE devs. Then the KDE devs worked on getting KDE 4 to work on the n810. Nokia could easily ship a full KDE 4 based desktop on future smart phones and tablets.
Re:time to port gnome!
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Thanks for the clarification. I recall reading that years back, but I didn't recall the specifics.
GTK wasn't designed to power a full desktop platform originally. Gnome is at a crossroads where they either completely rewrite GTK, they bandage it while trying to preserve some compatibility, or they consider a move to Qt.
The single largest objection I hear from Gnome devs about Qt isn't that Qt isn't a good toolkit, but rather that they prefer to code in C. Color me ignorant, but aren't there language bindings that allow you to use Qt in C?
I'd really love to see a proof-of-concept simple app like GEdit converted to Qt, but I assume that would also mean porting the Gnome libs to Qt first.
Re:KDE is a perfect cross-platform environment
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Yet when Nokia purchased the Trolls people insisted they would try to close up Qt and fight FOSS. Nokia did oppose open formats in HTML 5 for some crazy reason, but maybe Nokia isn't so evil after all.
The KDE team has been working on dialogs and user interface to make KDE 4 scale better, and work even on small netbook screens.
Re:Yeah but KDE doesn't work.
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 1
I'm curious how KDE screwed up your kernel.
BTW, what distro are you running, and what version of KDE 4.x did you run?
I've long been seen as a critic of the KDE 4.x branch, but there has been some massive progress moving towards 4.2, which comes out this month.
I highly recommend the openSUSE packages specifically.
Some distros had no clue how to build and package KDE 4 properly.
Re:time to port gnome!
on
Qt Becomes LGPL
·
· Score: 1, Interesting
Furthermore, both Gnome and KDE could share many core underlying technologies if this happened.
If I recall, Gnome was created because people didn't feel the Qt/KDE license was "Free" enough. Oddly enough, Qt and KDE are the "free" ones now, where as Gnome is now firmly entrenched with Mono.
Even Mark Shuttleworth has said there is something to said for a Gnome built on Qt. It would be faster, use less memory, and they could start on it tomorrow. Redesigning a GTK+ 3.0 from the ground up would take time, and slow down Gnome.
Qt ships with a Clearlooks engine. Please, please someone make this happen.
* What is a toothbrush? * You own more than one pair of socks? * I recycle toilet paper and do my best to use both sides. Anything less would be disrespectful of the environment. * What is this Windows XP that you speak of? Does it run Linux?
The best schedule I ever worked was 12 hour days. I'd work 3 days one week, and 4 days the next week. I always had either 3 or 4 days off.
A buddy of mine worked a variant of 9/80 schedule. They worked 9 hour days M-Th, and then worked a half day every Friday. Frankly, I'd rather have a full day off every other week.
Well, we're not cutting 12,000 circ per se. We're telling our subscribers in a specific part of the state (7 hours away) that they can get a digital copy of the paper online, or we'll mail them a paper.
Not many people truck papers to small rural towns 7 hours a way.
So, either through the e-edition, or through mailed copies, we're hoping to keep those numbers.
Except consumers want video. Our web site was going down the tube, and another local site was getting more hits than us. Video was the #1 reason. Now we produce our own video.
I work for the Omaha World-Herald. We own most of the papers in Nebraska and Iowa. We just had the second best year of the company (second only to 2007). Ink costs are much higher. Paper costs are much higher. We've installed ink saving software. I really think we could cut down on paper waste.
We also have Omaha.com and we're pushing our web presence more and more.
What makes the print product work is that our advertisers still greatly prefer a physical insert over a web ad.
Circulation is down a bit, but we don't make money directly by circulation. We make money off advertising.
People often don't know how to utilize technology, but big media has somewhat embraced bloggers, crowd-sourcing, etc. I think technology enables the media to discover new revenue sources and new outlets. Technology enables the media to better push immediate, breaking news. And technology enables the media to get more immediate feedback from their users to better track what users want.
I work for a newspaper company. We haven't cut the quality of our physical product, and we're still quite profitable. Then again, we're in the midwest and people here still like physical papers.
That being said, I think the big keys is to have exclusive stories that people want to read.
I read the baseball story linked in the article. The Java app allowed users to see the numbers for themselves, but I didn't feel it was necessary. What really turned me off was how poorly the article itself was written. I think a well written article could have made the case without the need for the java app.
I still think on principle, technology if well utilized will help journalism.
Slashdot Mirror
It isn't fast, but it runs as well as XP did on that box.
Regardless, if you don't configure Xorg properly, you aren't going to get great performance in Xorg, period.
tjstork said that installing KDE 4 automatically changed his video driver and kernel. The KDE 4 packages don't depend on video driver packages. Installing KDE 4 should not alter the kernel, or install different Xorg packages.
KDE depends on X11, but there are no package dependencies for specific video drivers.
I just installed openSUSE 11.1 on an old, beat-up Dell notebook with a GeForce 440 with only 32 MB of RAM. It actually manages to run KDE 4 with Desktop Effects turned on.
I've posted it elsewhere, you removing Mono from an openSUSE 11.1 install removes:
banshee-1-backend-platform-gnome, banshee-1-extensions-default, banshee-1, banshee-1-backend-engine-gstreamer, banshee-1-backend-platform-unix, beagle-evolution, beagle-gui, beagle, avahi-mono, boo, evolution, dice, f-spot, ggreeter, gnome-do, gnome-desktop-sharp2, gnome-keyring-sharp, gsf-sharp, gtkhtml314-sharp, podsleuth, taglib-sharp, tasque, evolution-sharp, tomboy, gnome-panel-sharp, gmime-sharp, mono-addins, mono-zeroconf-provider-avahi, mono-zeroconf, monsoon, mono-web, mono-winforms, mono-data-sqlite, mono-data, gconf-sharp2, glade-sharp2, gnome-sharp2, art-sharp2, gnome-vfs-sharp2, notify-sharp, ndesk-dbus-glib, ndesk-dbus, gtk-sharp2
and glib-sharp2.
That is just what is installed by default with the distro. There are Mono hooks for apps like Nautilus as well. How much longer will those Mono hooks be optional?
Also, these sure seem to be official Gnome apps:
http://projects.gnome.org/evolution/
http://projects.gnome.org/beagle/
http://projects.gnome.org/f-spot/
http://projects.gnome.org/tomboy/
I've also yet to see a distro that doesn't include these apps as part of their Gnome desktop.
Evolution is the latest app to require Mono, and given that Icaza has been pushing for Mono hooks in every app he can, I expect that list of apps to grow. There are already Mono hooks for Nautilus, Gvfs, etc.
Are those hooks going to stay optional forever?
Evolution, Banshee, Tomboy, and F-Spot are all dependent on Mono these days, and the list keeps growing.
Evolution is dependent on Mono as well these days.
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22434/1154/
"Remove mono-core and here's a list of what gets removed along with it: banshee-1-backend-platform-gnome, banshee-1-extensions-default, banshee-1, banshee-1-backend-engine-gstreamer, banshee-1-backend-platform-unix, beagle-evolution, beagle-gui, beagle, avahi-mono, boo, evolution, dice, f-spot, ggreeter, gnome-do, gnome-desktop-sharp2, gnome-keyring-sharp, gsf-sharp, gtkhtml314-sharp, podsleuth, taglib-sharp, tasque, evolution-sharp, tomboy, gnome-panel-sharp, gmime-sharp, mono-addins, mono-zeroconf-provider-avahi, mono-zeroconf, monsoon, mono-web, mono-winforms, mono-data-sqlite, mono-data, gconf-sharp2, glade-sharp2, gnome-sharp2, art-sharp2, gnome-vfs-sharp2, notify-sharp, ndesk-dbus-glib, ndesk-dbus, gtk-sharp2
and glib-sharp2."
First off, openSUSE uses Zypper for package management, but you can optionally use Smart if you want.
Package management was greatly improved in 11.0 and 11.1.
Secondly, Miguel Icaza is not a guy I agree with on any level, but hiring him to work on Mono and Gnome has nothing to do with the quality of KDE packages as he has nothing to do with them.
I think with 4.2's release, most distos won't have the folder view containment as a plasmoid, but rather will use it as the desktop containment. It will operate like a classic desktop, and no one will notice the difference.
As for a lack of settings, it takes time to rewrite the entire KDE project. At the 4.0 launch, there weren't dialogs to alter the taskbar, even though that functionality existed. It took them time just to add the configuration dialogs. Every month I see more and more functionality and features in the KDE 4 branch.
I still use a KDE 3 desktop session, but given time, I think KDE 4 will offer most of the KDE 3 features, and then some.
Fair enough, though I have read some praise for their Python bindings.
The Ubuntu devs screwed up their KDE 4 packages in a bad way. That isn't KDE's fault.
Furthermore, KDE doesn't depend on video drivers. If the Ubuntu devs made a certain Nvidia driver a dependency, then they screwed up big time. KDE does not change your kernel or video driver in any way.
I'm not calling you a liar or saying you didn't have problems. I'm sure your box got hosed somehow, but it is more likely the problem was with Ubuntu's packaging.
It should also be noted that the QT 4/Nvidia problems have largely been remedies. Qt 4 used Xrender heavily, and Nvidia's driver had a piss-poor Xrender implementation. The forthcoming Qt 4.5 is supposed to move away from using Xrender all over the place, and the latest Nvidia driver has much better Xrender support to boot. openSUSE even provides a repo with weekly snapshots of the KDE 4.2 branch compiled against the weekly snapshots of Qt 4.5. In theory it is unstable, but I've had good luck with it so far.
I know I'll get modded Troll for this, but I don't care. Ubuntu has got some serious problems, and is very overrated. openSUSE puts out quality KDE 3, KDE 4 and Gnome desktops. They support all 3 currently (though KDE 3 is being dropped in the future).
Novell hires a large staff of developers that make quality packages, fix upstream bugs, backport features, etc. As much as I hated Novell for the MS deal, Novell is one of the best contributors to several upstream projects, and openSUSE is a fantastic distro.
I can't recommend it enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_5#Ogg_controversy
I realize that Nokia bought Trolltech for Qtopia. Nokia is now trying to push a mobile GTK platform while owning the Qt platform. I did think it was a really smart move to give Nokia n810 tablets to KDE devs. Then the KDE devs worked on getting KDE 4 to work on the n810. Nokia could easily ship a full KDE 4 based desktop on future smart phones and tablets.
Thanks for the clarification. I recall reading that years back, but I didn't recall the specifics.
GTK wasn't designed to power a full desktop platform originally. Gnome is at a crossroads where they either completely rewrite GTK, they bandage it while trying to preserve some compatibility, or they consider a move to Qt.
The single largest objection I hear from Gnome devs about Qt isn't that Qt isn't a good toolkit, but rather that they prefer to code in C. Color me ignorant, but aren't there language bindings that allow you to use Qt in C?
I'd really love to see a proof-of-concept simple app like GEdit converted to Qt, but I assume that would also mean porting the Gnome libs to Qt first.
Yet when Nokia purchased the Trolls people insisted they would try to close up Qt and fight FOSS. Nokia did oppose open formats in HTML 5 for some crazy reason, but maybe Nokia isn't so evil after all.
The KDE team has been working on dialogs and user interface to make KDE 4 scale better, and work even on small netbook screens.
I'm curious how KDE screwed up your kernel.
BTW, what distro are you running, and what version of KDE 4.x did you run?
I've long been seen as a critic of the KDE 4.x branch, but there has been some massive progress moving towards 4.2, which comes out this month.
I highly recommend the openSUSE packages specifically.
Some distros had no clue how to build and package KDE 4 properly.
Furthermore, both Gnome and KDE could share many core underlying technologies if this happened.
If I recall, Gnome was created because people didn't feel the Qt/KDE license was "Free" enough. Oddly enough, Qt and KDE are the "free" ones now, where as Gnome is now firmly entrenched with Mono.
Even Mark Shuttleworth has said there is something to said for a Gnome built on Qt. It would be faster, use less memory, and they could start on it tomorrow. Redesigning a GTK+ 3.0 from the ground up would take time, and slow down Gnome.
Qt ships with a Clearlooks engine. Please, please someone make this happen.
It is my professional opinion that Java sucks dirty-donkey-parts.
I prefer text for that reason, but ask people who run media sites and they'll tell you that video is what is in demand right now.
* What is a toothbrush?
* You own more than one pair of socks?
* I recycle toilet paper and do my best to use both sides. Anything less would be disrespectful of the environment.
* What is this Windows XP that you speak of? Does it run Linux?
The best schedule I ever worked was 12 hour days. I'd work 3 days one week, and 4 days the next week. I always had either 3 or 4 days off.
A buddy of mine worked a variant of 9/80 schedule. They worked 9 hour days M-Th, and then worked a half day every Friday. Frankly, I'd rather have a full day off every other week.
Well, we're not cutting 12,000 circ per se. We're telling our subscribers in a specific part of the state (7 hours away) that they can get a digital copy of the paper online, or we'll mail them a paper.
Not many people truck papers to small rural towns 7 hours a way.
So, either through the e-edition, or through mailed copies, we're hoping to keep those numbers.
Except consumers want video. Our web site was going down the tube, and another local site was getting more hits than us. Video was the #1 reason. Now we produce our own video.
I work for the Omaha World-Herald. We own most of the papers in Nebraska and Iowa. We just had the second best year of the company (second only to 2007). Ink costs are much higher. Paper costs are much higher. We've installed ink saving software. I really think we could cut down on paper waste.
We also have Omaha.com and we're pushing our web presence more and more.
What makes the print product work is that our advertisers still greatly prefer a physical insert over a web ad.
Circulation is down a bit, but we don't make money directly by circulation. We make money off advertising.
People often don't know how to utilize technology, but big media has somewhat embraced bloggers, crowd-sourcing, etc. I think technology enables the media to discover new revenue sources and new outlets. Technology enables the media to better push immediate, breaking news. And technology enables the media to get more immediate feedback from their users to better track what users want.
I work for a newspaper company. We haven't cut the quality of our physical product, and we're still quite profitable. Then again, we're in the midwest and people here still like physical papers.
That being said, I think the big keys is to have exclusive stories that people want to read.
I read the baseball story linked in the article. The Java app allowed users to see the numbers for themselves, but I didn't feel it was necessary. What really turned me off was how poorly the article itself was written. I think a well written article could have made the case without the need for the java app.
I still think on principle, technology if well utilized will help journalism.