This sort of reasoning always bugs me with missile defense. The "it's a waste of money if it doesnt stop every possible thing in the world right now, oh and slice and dice and juelienne."
Its about building a capability over time, you start with one capability and then add more. You integrate additional systems, like the PAC3, Aegis, X-Band radar in the Adac etc. And you gain a capability over time.
For instance we already shoot down theater missiles very well, its called a PAC3. We right now have the POTENTIAL to shoot down an ICBMs from NKorea with inteceptors in California and Alaska, I'll take the POTENTIAL over nothing. Aegis ships have a theater intercept capability and their tracking data can be uploaded and used by other systems. Its about defense in depth. Right now ICBM missile defense has a limited capability, that we are continuously expanding and increasing. And there are additional systems, upgraded inteceptors, the airborne laser, all these individual components will build into a bigger more robust system. Is it expensive, yes, take a lot of time, yes, a lot of R and D, yes.
But we now have a POTENTIAL of shooting down a crazy rogue nations ICBMs, decreasing their blackmailing options, I'll take that any day of the week.
Consider, hot air balloons with ground tethers were used in the American Civil war to gain high ground to observe enemy forces, this continued through WWI, until they (balloons/balloonists) kept gettin shot down, (shooting down a balloon counted as a kill for pilots, and balloonists wore parachutes). So aircraft became the observation platforms, thus fighter/intercepters would go up to shoot down the observation aircraft.
Flash forward 85 years and its basically the same thing, except no one else messes with the US Air Force, every other country has given up the air to us, they depend on SAM's to counteract our air superiority.
So what is space, usually its defined as above 1oo kilometers, where we have a lot of observation platforms to ensure the high ground to ensure the informatin superiority of American forces. This is the main center of gravity for the US military, our complete battlespace information superiority over every other nation.
Also consider, a space race. By default we win. No other country can afford to maintain and develop their standing military and initiate a realistic competition against us in space. Proof in point, The Soviet Union had just finished upgrading its naval fleet when Reagan started and deployed the Peacekeeper ICMS, They tried to upgrade thier own stockpile, (plus Afghanistan) and they ran out of money.
Really a moot point, no other nation has the current or real ability to develop the space lift capability to put up enough satelittes to mount a campaign in space, so they would depend on jamming or destruction from the ground (Iraq tried to use GPS jammers to decrease the accuracy of JDAMs, didnt work to well for them) That the real threat we face, foreign based ground based anti satelitte systems, and basically 0 we could do to protect against them. Some day some adversary of ours will destroy one/some of our satelittes, how we respond will determine the ultimate answer to this question.
Military uses GPS alot, and Sat comm, but we train to not have it and remain full combat capabilities.
Commen misconception, US Police can use tear gas, the US military cannot. Some convention or other considers it a chemical weapon, i.e. we can't use it. We also use different bullets than police do, ours dont mushroom in a body (they're not soft), they penetrate through, again because of treaties.
Having been tear gassed before while watching/hangin around a riot/mob it's pretty damn effective for getting you to go elsewhere, especially when the police are massively outnumbered.
I guess I'd have to disagree with you about the police brutality in general, its a tough job. My dad was a Michigan State Trooper, during the Detroit riots. I was raised on different stories than you probably. Rather than say police brutatality I'd say that men in mobs are not men but animals. Again not people exercising their right to assembly, but rioting mobs.
On a side note, the Active Denial System has been ready for a while, like a year, they've delayed deploying it partially so that they could do an in depth review of its legality.
As I said previously you don't really want the military doing non-lethal (my opinion). We're a broad sword, not a scapel.
And hey I'm all about the taxpayers (myslef included, dont know why I pay income tax) feeling more of the war, I'm about war bonds, and ration cards, not tax breaks and enourmous debts.
People don't like Bush, especially dictatorial governments, he seesm to make them nervous.
Yes we never found weapons of mass destruction, Sadaam fooled everybody. Honestly though for me that was never a good reason to come here, personally I'm all about getting rid of psycho tyrants, (your thinking bush is one right now aren't you) and really making the world a better place, what if someone had done this 50 years ago to Stalin, Kim Jung Il, and dozens of others. Saddest chapter in American history is when we abondoned Eastern European countries to the Soviets.
Also as a note, when you say employed by us, he is, majority of people re-elected him and lots of presidents have lied to us, name one that hasn't (especially Kennedy) Yes if a subordinate lied to me they would be in shit, that's the military, we're different than other jobs.
Those civilain numbers, did you actually read how they got those numbers. The 250000 report is off of unsubstantiated media reports. The 100,000 comes from interviewing 500 people around Iraq and then extrapolating those numbers for the rest of the population. Who knows they could be accurate, but that would be by pure chance not by actual scientific method.
I'll say it again, people in the military would target a civilian as readily as you would, no more no less.
As a note, I'm pretty sure the C in C(correct term is CG) has read The art of War. Something I never new until I got in, pretty much every Maj or above has a masters, most generals have doctorates or an equivalent. Military outpaces almost all career fields for highest education level, both enlisted and officers.
And yeah we should have kept that army that killed tens of thousands of its own people.
The media at home might say we are at the tipping point, but its the other way. There's a lot of data the media doesnt have access to. also the vast majority of the country is peaceful. There's like 8 spots in the country where stuff goes down. Otherwise its calm. I'm in the IZ in downtown Baghdad, and I still haven't been nearly as scared here as I have been in downtown Detroit at night.
You can think I'm crazy but I'd say you see a little smoke and think the whole forest is burning. Truth is the fire is already out, its just smoldering and under control.
Gotta say, as I am serving in Iraq right now, that in general all of the comments have been pretty disgusting. First of all ask any Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman and find out which one of them targets civilians, or doesn't care when an Iraqi dies. I'm thinking that most of you won't for two reasons. 1) You know the answer you'll get, we don't kill innocents, bystanders, civilians intentionally, nor do we ever intentionally target them. 2) You won't because you lack the courage or personal fortitude to look someone who volunteers to serve something larger then themselves in the eye.
As for the Active denial system, are there risks, is it a new technology? Yes. The sole intent of it is to disperse mobs when they move past the assembled protestors into the violent mob phaze. Helping to protect individuals in the Mob and those tasked to control it from injury. Yes that sounds cruel, but as I've been in and seen riots and the damge they cause to people in and around them, this is a far better choice.
Also lets get one thing straight, the US military is not a police force, we have a completely different mission and rules. The active denail system is coming on-line because we are not allowed to use tear gas as it is considered a chemical weapon. Meaning the US military has no current non-leathal way of dispersing a violent mob. In fact our nature is not non-lethal, we are trained and equipped to kill and destroy. So if you consider the use of an M-4 or M-16 rifle as a more humane approach the the microwave or sound amplification system that are going to be fielded, well you've got some problems.
Iraqi's are moving towards the first democratic government in the arab world. They have met every milestone all while being attacked by an ever more desperate and loathesome terrorist force bent on returning them to the stone age. What other nation has sacrificed the blood of hundreds of its own, spent its own treasure for the purpose of helping others. Most other nations are content to placate and live in denial, all so that they may finally have peace in their time.
And considering we work day in and day out besides the "hajji", that they are friends and comrades, again yes we do care. I've been amazed at the inspiring courage displayed every day by Iraqi's who have to take multiple busses, cabs, to come to work to help re-create thier country. These men and women are determined to make sure that their new opportunity for everything we take for granted isn't taken from them by another thugh or dictator. Look one of them in the face and tell them they'd be better of under Saddam or Uday or Qusay, you won't because you don't have the spine too.
Every moment of the war and occupation have been covered by media. Find any reporter who has been embedded with a military unit who says that we don't do everything in our power to prevent civilian casualties. Again you won't be because you already know the answer.
Some of you people make me sick, do something worth a damn, serve something besides yourself before you have the unmitgated gall to criticize those who do.
I can see locking yourself out of your home, car, bank account, office... Just think of the pain in the ass it is now to get a new or temp ID card at most places
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This sort of reasoning always bugs me with missile defense. The "it's a waste of money if it doesnt stop every possible thing in the world right now, oh and slice and dice and juelienne." Its about building a capability over time, you start with one capability and then add more. You integrate additional systems, like the PAC3, Aegis, X-Band radar in the Adac etc. And you gain a capability over time. For instance we already shoot down theater missiles very well, its called a PAC3. We right now have the POTENTIAL to shoot down an ICBMs from NKorea with inteceptors in California and Alaska, I'll take the POTENTIAL over nothing. Aegis ships have a theater intercept capability and their tracking data can be uploaded and used by other systems. Its about defense in depth. Right now ICBM missile defense has a limited capability, that we are continuously expanding and increasing. And there are additional systems, upgraded inteceptors, the airborne laser, all these individual components will build into a bigger more robust system. Is it expensive, yes, take a lot of time, yes, a lot of R and D, yes. But we now have a POTENTIAL of shooting down a crazy rogue nations ICBMs, decreasing their blackmailing options, I'll take that any day of the week.
"Space" has been weaponized since sputnik.
Consider, hot air balloons with ground tethers were used in the American Civil war to gain high ground to observe enemy forces, this continued through WWI, until they (balloons/balloonists) kept gettin shot down, (shooting down a balloon counted as a kill for pilots, and balloonists wore parachutes). So aircraft became the observation platforms, thus fighter/intercepters would go up to shoot down the observation aircraft.
Flash forward 85 years and its basically the same thing, except no one else messes with the US Air Force, every other country has given up the air to us, they depend on SAM's to counteract our air superiority.
So what is space, usually its defined as above 1oo kilometers, where we have a lot of observation platforms to ensure the high ground to ensure the informatin superiority of American forces. This is the main center of gravity for the US military, our complete battlespace information superiority over every other nation.
Also consider, a space race. By default we win. No other country can afford to maintain and develop their standing military and initiate a realistic competition against us in space. Proof in point, The Soviet Union had just finished upgrading its naval fleet when Reagan started and deployed the Peacekeeper ICMS, They tried to upgrade thier own stockpile, (plus Afghanistan) and they ran out of money.
Really a moot point, no other nation has the current or real ability to develop the space lift capability to put up enough satelittes to mount a campaign in space, so they would depend on jamming or destruction from the ground (Iraq tried to use GPS jammers to decrease the accuracy of JDAMs, didnt work to well for them) That the real threat we face, foreign based ground based anti satelitte systems, and basically 0 we could do to protect against them. Some day some adversary of ours will destroy one/some of our satelittes, how we respond will determine the ultimate answer to this question.
Military uses GPS alot, and Sat comm, but we train to not have it and remain full combat capabilities.
whew, sorry for the dissertation,
Commen misconception, US Police can use tear gas, the US military cannot. Some convention or other considers it a chemical weapon, i.e. we can't use it. We also use different bullets than police do, ours dont mushroom in a body (they're not soft), they penetrate through, again because of treaties.
Having been tear gassed before while watching/hangin around a riot/mob it's pretty damn effective for getting you to go elsewhere, especially when the police are massively outnumbered.
I guess I'd have to disagree with you about the police brutality in general, its a tough job. My dad was a Michigan State Trooper, during the Detroit riots. I was raised on different stories than you probably. Rather than say police brutatality I'd say that men in mobs are not men but animals. Again not people exercising their right to assembly, but rioting mobs.
On a side note, the Active Denial System has been ready for a while, like a year, they've delayed deploying it partially so that they could do an in depth review of its legality.
As I said previously you don't really want the military doing non-lethal (my opinion). We're a broad sword, not a scapel.
And hey I'm all about the taxpayers (myslef included, dont know why I pay income tax) feeling more of the war, I'm about war bonds, and ration cards, not tax breaks and enourmous debts.
People don't like Bush, especially dictatorial governments, he seesm to make them nervous.
Yes we never found weapons of mass destruction, Sadaam fooled everybody. Honestly though for me that was never a good reason to come here, personally I'm all about getting rid of psycho tyrants, (your thinking bush is one right now aren't you) and really making the world a better place, what if someone had done this 50 years ago to Stalin, Kim Jung Il, and dozens of others. Saddest chapter in American history is when we abondoned Eastern European countries to the Soviets.
Also as a note, when you say employed by us, he is, majority of people re-elected him and lots of presidents have lied to us, name one that hasn't (especially Kennedy) Yes if a subordinate lied to me they would be in shit, that's the military, we're different than other jobs.
Those civilain numbers, did you actually read how they got those numbers. The 250000 report is off of unsubstantiated media reports. The 100,000 comes from interviewing 500 people around Iraq and then extrapolating those numbers for the rest of the population. Who knows they could be accurate, but that would be by pure chance not by actual scientific method.
I'll say it again, people in the military would target a civilian as readily as you would, no more no less.
As a note, I'm pretty sure the C in C(correct term is CG) has read The art of War. Something I never new until I got in, pretty much every Maj or above has a masters, most generals have doctorates or an equivalent. Military outpaces almost all career fields for highest education level, both enlisted and officers.
And yeah we should have kept that army that killed tens of thousands of its own people.
The media at home might say we are at the tipping point, but its the other way. There's a lot of data the media doesnt have access to. also the vast majority of the country is peaceful. There's like 8 spots in the country where stuff goes down. Otherwise its calm. I'm in the IZ in downtown Baghdad, and I still haven't been nearly as scared here as I have been in downtown Detroit at night.
You can think I'm crazy but I'd say you see a little smoke and think the whole forest is burning. Truth is the fire is already out, its just smoldering and under control.
Gotta say, as I am serving in Iraq right now, that in general all of the comments have been pretty disgusting. First of all ask any Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman and find out which one of them targets civilians, or doesn't care when an Iraqi dies. I'm thinking that most of you won't for two reasons. 1) You know the answer you'll get, we don't kill innocents, bystanders, civilians intentionally, nor do we ever intentionally target them. 2) You won't because you lack the courage or personal fortitude to look someone who volunteers to serve something larger then themselves in the eye. As for the Active denial system, are there risks, is it a new technology? Yes. The sole intent of it is to disperse mobs when they move past the assembled protestors into the violent mob phaze. Helping to protect individuals in the Mob and those tasked to control it from injury. Yes that sounds cruel, but as I've been in and seen riots and the damge they cause to people in and around them, this is a far better choice. Also lets get one thing straight, the US military is not a police force, we have a completely different mission and rules. The active denail system is coming on-line because we are not allowed to use tear gas as it is considered a chemical weapon. Meaning the US military has no current non-leathal way of dispersing a violent mob. In fact our nature is not non-lethal, we are trained and equipped to kill and destroy. So if you consider the use of an M-4 or M-16 rifle as a more humane approach the the microwave or sound amplification system that are going to be fielded, well you've got some problems. Iraqi's are moving towards the first democratic government in the arab world. They have met every milestone all while being attacked by an ever more desperate and loathesome terrorist force bent on returning them to the stone age. What other nation has sacrificed the blood of hundreds of its own, spent its own treasure for the purpose of helping others. Most other nations are content to placate and live in denial, all so that they may finally have peace in their time. And considering we work day in and day out besides the "hajji", that they are friends and comrades, again yes we do care. I've been amazed at the inspiring courage displayed every day by Iraqi's who have to take multiple busses, cabs, to come to work to help re-create thier country. These men and women are determined to make sure that their new opportunity for everything we take for granted isn't taken from them by another thugh or dictator. Look one of them in the face and tell them they'd be better of under Saddam or Uday or Qusay, you won't because you don't have the spine too. Every moment of the war and occupation have been covered by media. Find any reporter who has been embedded with a military unit who says that we don't do everything in our power to prevent civilian casualties. Again you won't be because you already know the answer. Some of you people make me sick, do something worth a damn, serve something besides yourself before you have the unmitgated gall to criticize those who do.
I can see locking yourself out of your home, car, bank account, office... Just think of the pain in the ass it is now to get a new or temp ID card at most places