It didn't start out that way though. I simply proved myself, explained the situation, and was given control. There's no reason to accept a job where your boss fucks everything up all the time.
Jerking around tech guys wastes money. Explain to him how he's wasting money, and if he doesn't listen then look for a better job. Not every PHB is stubborn and stupid, lots of them listen when the complaint is "you are flushing money down the toilet" instead of "I don't like that".
The word free has two meanings, and RMS has at least made some free (as in cost) software. So you could make the case that he does in fact have "something" to do with free software. He certainly does not have any authority to try to redefine the word free to suit his agenda though.
Funny, I've never had to do anything based on what's cool at the time. In fact, I've heard statements like "I don't care what you use, you are the tech guy, you make the tech decisions. That's what we pay you for". I also migrated a couple hundred machines away from cool and trendy linux onto reliable and secure openbsd.
Maybe if you are desperate for a job, any job, than you will end up with a crappy job. That doesn't make it the "real world", its just settling for crap. Or do people eating at McDonald's prove that that's the "real world" and people who want to eat a nice steak are living in a fantasy world and will never be able to have that steak?
There are instances where an AJAX like web app is the right way to go. A few years back I made one (just using an iframe and text, no XML nonsense) which really couldn't have been done as well any other way, especially since it had to be updated at least once a week.
Just because something is an over-used, over-hyped fad doesn't mean it has no uses at all.
IPF is not open source. You see, I have decided that the definition of open source is now "software which displays pornography". IPF clearly does not qualify. IE is now open source though.
What, I am not allowed to make up a random and arbitrary definition for established english words? So why do you think some random joe who registered opensource.org can?
open-source adj. Of or relating to source code that is available to the public: an open-source operating system.
Oops, it looks like IPF qualifies based on the english definition doesn't it? Quit being such a tool and sucking the cocks of random idiots who claim to have invented something that had already existed while they were in diapers. Bruce Perens has nothing to do with open source software, and has no right or authority to change the english language to suit his agenda.
Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind.
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I don't much care for conversations with people who ignore what I say, and instead reply to the twisted version of what I say that they somehow got in their heads. People who call me stupid because I don't "accept" nutjobs making up bullshit and trying to pretend its science, without bothering with tedious things like facts, or evidence, or research.
I never called him stupid, just crazy. I never dismissed anything, he did. And if you read his writing on the topic, there is no other conclusion you can come to. He actively makes up rediculous excuses to dismiss evidence he doesn't like, while providing no evidence to support his belief at all. That is delusional, like it or not.
I would love for you to learn how to hear what people say, instead of twisting what they say to suit your prejudice.
The fact is you are speaking from the perspective of ignorance. "Large parts" of the BSDs are not GNU, one tiny part consisting of a few related utilties are GNU. Lying over and over again isn't going to make it true.
And yes, you clearly are retarded. Having explained to you over and over again that what your interpretation of "end users" care about is off-topic and irrelivant, you continue to say the same thing. IT DOES NOT MATTER. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING. This cannot be made any clearer, and yet you fail to grasp this. This can only be due to a mental problem. Read the fucking question that started this thread, all of your comments have been off-topic at best, and flamebait at worst.
Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind.
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No, lots of Christains and creationist have common sense. Being a creationist doesn't mean you believe the current Christian interpretation of the bible, just that some form of higher being made the world. And being a Christain doesn't mean you believe every crazy thing another Christain says either.
You do realize the bible says nothing about the age of the earth right? That the 6,000-10,000 figures are the wildly speculative opinions of assorted people's interpretations of the bible, not actually the bible, or any other religious text, right? There's no reason for any Christain to believe that nonsense, as it has nothing to do with their faith.
And I didn't dismiss anyone or anything. I simply pointed out that he is insane, and his writings should be considered in that light. Keep in mind he is the one dismissing all scientific evidence regarding the age of the earth, so even you consider him insane then.
Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind.
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No, there are no other data points that conflict with it. Saying "leap seconds prove its impossible" doesn't actually prove anything. Give some real evidence, not just regurgitating some other psycho's nonsense. Bullshit doesn't smell better just because you have alot of it.
Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind.
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No, anyone who has demonstrated they are capable of logical thought, and then proceeds to discard all logic and believe something completely rediculous, even going out of their way to make up nonsense to dismiss all the facts is crazy.
I never said anything about creationism, or any particular religion. I said he belives the world cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old, which is completely insane.
Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind.
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This isn't about his work on spam, its about a book. When someone's writing demonstrates that they are crazy, its worth keeping that in mind when reading their other writing. I didn't say DSPAM sucks because he is crazy, I just pointed out that he is crazy, and what he says may or may not have any basis in reality.
Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind.
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Read some of his essays. He genuinely believes that all evidence clearly shows that the earth cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old.
The contract between being a logical minded person like a programmer, and being so easily brainwashed into believing comeplete nonsense is startling.
So to summarize your post "yes, I am retarded". That's good to know. If after all this time you still can't grasp that I answered a specific question, and that you only caring about KDE and not the OS is totally irrelivant, than there is simply no way to carry on a conversation with you.
I am an end user too, I just happen to be a unix user, not a windows user trying to avoid paying for windows. As such, I care about unix. I explained that this is a difference for the original poster. Wether you care about this or not has nothing to do with anything, and so shouldn't have been a sarcastic reply to my post.
Go back and read the thread, seriously. Your argument consists of bullshit that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and then a huge thread of "lalalalala I can't hear you".
I don't know how to make this any clearer for you. NOBODY ASKED ABOUT KDE, OR END USERS, OR ANYTHING ELSE YOU HAVE BEEN BLATHERING ABOUT.
Like I said, read the thread. Someone asked why anyone would care since its just a different kernel, I explained what else was different besides the kernel. You made nonsense posts that have nothing to do with anything. I don't understand how you can still be confused about this. Your posts were purely trying to pretend that the BSDs userlands don't matter and are just like linux's. So not only do you disparage BSDs, but you are too biased to even realize it.
And the BSDs only use the GNU toolchain (gcc, gdb, gas), no other GNU utilities are in there. So yes, there is a very big difference. And nobody is happy that they have to use gcc, its just such a big undertaking to write a replacement toolchain that nobody has done it.
And I actually made it quite clear that linux does not suck. I said the crap that every distro packages with linux sucks. This is not a flaw of linux, and if someone cared they could make a good linux distro using a nice userland. But anyone who wants that just uses a BSD.
Sure. Everything that is part of the base OS, besides the kernel. Linux distros don't have a base OS, everything is just a package, and no distinction is made between packages you install because you feel like it, and packages that are required as part of the system. But on BSDs, the base OS is everything the developers maintain, and it is not installed using the package management tools.
Try reading the thread again, your posts have made no sense, have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and you just insist on repeating your nonsense as if that's somehow a response to criticism. Saying you knew better, and you were intentionally making bullshit comments to try to trivialize BSDs isn't better than just being uninformed. Nobody asked if you use unix tools or not, and it has nothing to do with what the original poster asked.
The original post said nothing about what kind of users, or what desktop environment they like. A guy asked "what does it matter, its just a different kernel?". I explained that its actually a whole coherent OS, not just the kernel. You then made stupid remarks about KDE for no apparent reason.
Wether you made uninformed comments, or as you now claim you knew the difference, but just made moronic comments doesn't matter. Your reply was either ignorant or a deliberate lie, and nothing you have said in your repeated replies changes that.
And your opinion of BSD users reflects more on you than on BSD. Notice how you as a linux user are actively trashing both BSD and linux distros you don't like in your posts, but complaining about BSD users trashing linux. If you don't want to use BSD that's fine, but don't spread lies and bullshit then, and quit being such a hypocrite.
Its not easy to pay enough for good windows admins on public sector wages either. A good windows admin costs just as much as a good unix admin, people just like to hire shitty windows admins instead. You can get a shitty unix admin with no clue just as cheaply as a shitty windows admin with no clue, but everyone seems to want to hire competant unix admins.
Stop perpetuating the myth that unix admins are more expensive than windows admins by comparing highly skilled, experienced unix admins with freshly rubber-stamped MCSE's with no clue what they are doing, its rediculous. The truth is not defined by MS's marketing department.
If you understand so very well, then why the stupid comments about KDE and such that obviously have nothing to do with it?
And you are seeing what you want to see when comparing linux users and BSD users. There's tons of linux users who constantly trash BSDs despite not understanding them, or having ever even tried any of them. Plus there's the linux users who trash windows and macos because they want to feel 1337. With BSDs, there's just the users who trash linux and windows to feel 133t. So how exactly is the BSD userbase worse?
There are plenty of arrogant gentoo users, hell they even trash other linux distros and anyone who doesn't use gentoo. Step back and look at things objectively, there's plenty of shitheads no matter where you go, that's the stupidiest possible reason to not try something.
You have again clearly demonstrated that you do not understand that BSDs have a base system, and then locally installed optional packages. BSDs have developers. The OS is everything those developers maintain. KDE is not something they maintain, and is thus not part of the OS. Grep is something they maintain, and is part of the OS. If you don't want to try it and see how it works, then quit telling people who do know that they are wrong.
Also, you should probably stop breathing, the arrogant as hell userbase of air must be really turning you off of it. Or does the attitutude of a tiny fraction of a userbase only matter when deciding about something you already made up your mind not to like without ever trying it? Linux certainly has a lot of arrogant assholes who use it and trash everything that isn't linux all the time. You refuse to use it too?
The whole "lambda" function concept is dumb how exactly? If you mean python having neutered lambdas instead of real ones, sure that's dumb. But the concept of lambdas isn't dumb at all.
Userland refers to the non-kernel parts of the OS. Not whatever 3rd party applications that you choose to install.
KDE has nothing to do with this, find, grep, ifconfig, route, netstat, man pages, config files, etc, etc, etc are what the problem is.
And neither debian nor ubuntu make a distinction between the base OS and locally installed packages. Please try a BSD so you understand for yourself before making nonsense comments like this.
All the BSDs are great, recent Solaris versions are decent too, I don't find Solaris or Tru64 to be any worse than linux at least. HPUX has the single worst userland of any unix I have used, it is painfully outdated, lacks tons of functionality, and just plain blows.
Linux is just a kernel, this isn't my opinion, its a fact. How did you want me to back that up exactly? The userland included with every linux distro I know of come from a variety of authors, have far too many useless options, have outdated, incomplete or non-existant documentation in a variety of formats, and have nothing in common besides being lumped into a distro. If that's not "random assorted crap" I don't know what is.
If you don't know wether or not something is true, find out. Me saying its true in more words isn't going to change anything, learn to think for yourself. Its not hard to install a BSD and check out how EVERYTHING has an accurate and up to date man page. How man pages not being clear enough is considered a bug and is fixed. How the same group of people are responsable for the entire OS, and ensure consistant and sane behaviour from all userland tools. Compare it to your linux distro of choice, its not hard to see the difference.
No, the kernel doesn't make that big of a difference, and the kernel is all that linux is. BSDs are complete operating systems. The reason I don't use linux is because every distro comes with a messy userland full of random assorted crap from various sources, and most of the core utilities are bloated, poorly documented GNU junk.
The BSDs have sane, useful, documented and functional userlands, which makes them a joy to use. There is no reason that linux distros couldn't be made with a nice userland too, but nobody seems to have done it. It seems like most linux users have never used a nice unix system, so they don't realize what they are missing.
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It didn't start out that way though. I simply proved myself, explained the situation, and was given control. There's no reason to accept a job where your boss fucks everything up all the time.
Jerking around tech guys wastes money. Explain to him how he's wasting money, and if he doesn't listen then look for a better job. Not every PHB is stubborn and stupid, lots of them listen when the complaint is "you are flushing money down the toilet" instead of "I don't like that".
The word free has two meanings, and RMS has at least made some free (as in cost) software. So you could make the case that he does in fact have "something" to do with free software. He certainly does not have any authority to try to redefine the word free to suit his agenda though.
Funny, I've never had to do anything based on what's cool at the time. In fact, I've heard statements like "I don't care what you use, you are the tech guy, you make the tech decisions. That's what we pay you for". I also migrated a couple hundred machines away from cool and trendy linux onto reliable and secure openbsd.
Maybe if you are desperate for a job, any job, than you will end up with a crappy job. That doesn't make it the "real world", its just settling for crap. Or do people eating at McDonald's prove that that's the "real world" and people who want to eat a nice steak are living in a fantasy world and will never be able to have that steak?
There are instances where an AJAX like web app is the right way to go. A few years back I made one (just using an iframe and text, no XML nonsense) which really couldn't have been done as well any other way, especially since it had to be updated at least once a week.
Just because something is an over-used, over-hyped fad doesn't mean it has no uses at all.
What kind of moron would work at a place like that?
IPF is not open source. You see, I have decided that the definition of open source is now "software which displays pornography". IPF clearly does not qualify. IE is now open source though.
What, I am not allowed to make up a random and arbitrary definition for established english words? So why do you think some random joe who registered opensource.org can?
open-source adj.
Of or relating to source code that is available to the public: an open-source operating system.
Oops, it looks like IPF qualifies based on the english definition doesn't it? Quit being such a tool and sucking the cocks of random idiots who claim to have invented something that had already existed while they were in diapers. Bruce Perens has nothing to do with open source software, and has no right or authority to change the english language to suit his agenda.
I don't much care for conversations with people who ignore what I say, and instead reply to the twisted version of what I say that they somehow got in their heads. People who call me stupid because I don't "accept" nutjobs making up bullshit and trying to pretend its science, without bothering with tedious things like facts, or evidence, or research.
I never called him stupid, just crazy. I never dismissed anything, he did. And if you read his writing on the topic, there is no other conclusion you can come to. He actively makes up rediculous excuses to dismiss evidence he doesn't like, while providing no evidence to support his belief at all. That is delusional, like it or not.
I would love for you to learn how to hear what people say, instead of twisting what they say to suit your prejudice.
The fact is you are speaking from the perspective of ignorance. "Large parts" of the BSDs are not GNU, one tiny part consisting of a few related utilties are GNU. Lying over and over again isn't going to make it true.
And yes, you clearly are retarded. Having explained to you over and over again that what your interpretation of "end users" care about is off-topic and irrelivant, you continue to say the same thing. IT DOES NOT MATTER. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING. This cannot be made any clearer, and yet you fail to grasp this. This can only be due to a mental problem. Read the fucking question that started this thread, all of your comments have been off-topic at best, and flamebait at worst.
No, lots of Christains and creationist have common sense. Being a creationist doesn't mean you believe the current Christian interpretation of the bible, just that some form of higher being made the world. And being a Christain doesn't mean you believe every crazy thing another Christain says either.
You do realize the bible says nothing about the age of the earth right? That the 6,000-10,000 figures are the wildly speculative opinions of assorted people's interpretations of the bible, not actually the bible, or any other religious text, right? There's no reason for any Christain to believe that nonsense, as it has nothing to do with their faith.
And I didn't dismiss anyone or anything. I simply pointed out that he is insane, and his writings should be considered in that light. Keep in mind he is the one dismissing all scientific evidence regarding the age of the earth, so even you consider him insane then.
No, there are no other data points that conflict with it. Saying "leap seconds prove its impossible" doesn't actually prove anything. Give some real evidence, not just regurgitating some other psycho's nonsense. Bullshit doesn't smell better just because you have alot of it.
No, anyone who has demonstrated they are capable of logical thought, and then proceeds to discard all logic and believe something completely rediculous, even going out of their way to make up nonsense to dismiss all the facts is crazy.
I never said anything about creationism, or any particular religion. I said he belives the world cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old, which is completely insane.
This isn't about his work on spam, its about a book. When someone's writing demonstrates that they are crazy, its worth keeping that in mind when reading their other writing. I didn't say DSPAM sucks because he is crazy, I just pointed out that he is crazy, and what he says may or may not have any basis in reality.
Read some of his essays. He genuinely believes that all evidence clearly shows that the earth cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old.
The contract between being a logical minded person like a programmer, and being so easily brainwashed into believing comeplete nonsense is startling.
So to summarize your post "yes, I am retarded". That's good to know. If after all this time you still can't grasp that I answered a specific question, and that you only caring about KDE and not the OS is totally irrelivant, than there is simply no way to carry on a conversation with you.
I am an end user too, I just happen to be a unix user, not a windows user trying to avoid paying for windows. As such, I care about unix. I explained that this is a difference for the original poster. Wether you care about this or not has nothing to do with anything, and so shouldn't have been a sarcastic reply to my post.
Go back and read the thread, seriously. Your argument consists of bullshit that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and then a huge thread of "lalalalala I can't hear you".
I don't know how to make this any clearer for you. NOBODY ASKED ABOUT KDE, OR END USERS, OR ANYTHING ELSE YOU HAVE BEEN BLATHERING ABOUT.
Like I said, read the thread. Someone asked why anyone would care since its just a different kernel, I explained what else was different besides the kernel. You made nonsense posts that have nothing to do with anything. I don't understand how you can still be confused about this. Your posts were purely trying to pretend that the BSDs userlands don't matter and are just like linux's. So not only do you disparage BSDs, but you are too biased to even realize it.
And the BSDs only use the GNU toolchain (gcc, gdb, gas), no other GNU utilities are in there. So yes, there is a very big difference. And nobody is happy that they have to use gcc, its just such a big undertaking to write a replacement toolchain that nobody has done it.
And I actually made it quite clear that linux does not suck. I said the crap that every distro packages with linux sucks. This is not a flaw of linux, and if someone cared they could make a good linux distro using a nice userland. But anyone who wants that just uses a BSD.
Sure. Everything that is part of the base OS, besides the kernel. Linux distros don't have a base OS, everything is just a package, and no distinction is made between packages you install because you feel like it, and packages that are required as part of the system. But on BSDs, the base OS is everything the developers maintain, and it is not installed using the package management tools.
For openbsd, everything in here:
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/
besides the sys directory (that's the kernel) is the openbsd userland.
Try reading the thread again, your posts have made no sense, have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and you just insist on repeating your nonsense as if that's somehow a response to criticism. Saying you knew better, and you were intentionally making bullshit comments to try to trivialize BSDs isn't better than just being uninformed. Nobody asked if you use unix tools or not, and it has nothing to do with what the original poster asked.
The original post said nothing about what kind of users, or what desktop environment they like. A guy asked "what does it matter, its just a different kernel?". I explained that its actually a whole coherent OS, not just the kernel. You then made stupid remarks about KDE for no apparent reason.
Wether you made uninformed comments, or as you now claim you knew the difference, but just made moronic comments doesn't matter. Your reply was either ignorant or a deliberate lie, and nothing you have said in your repeated replies changes that.
And your opinion of BSD users reflects more on you than on BSD. Notice how you as a linux user are actively trashing both BSD and linux distros you don't like in your posts, but complaining about BSD users trashing linux. If you don't want to use BSD that's fine, but don't spread lies and bullshit then, and quit being such a hypocrite.
Its not easy to pay enough for good windows admins on public sector wages either. A good windows admin costs just as much as a good unix admin, people just like to hire shitty windows admins instead. You can get a shitty unix admin with no clue just as cheaply as a shitty windows admin with no clue, but everyone seems to want to hire competant unix admins.
Stop perpetuating the myth that unix admins are more expensive than windows admins by comparing highly skilled, experienced unix admins with freshly rubber-stamped MCSE's with no clue what they are doing, its rediculous. The truth is not defined by MS's marketing department.
If you understand so very well, then why the stupid comments about KDE and such that obviously have nothing to do with it?
And you are seeing what you want to see when comparing linux users and BSD users. There's tons of linux users who constantly trash BSDs despite not understanding them, or having ever even tried any of them. Plus there's the linux users who trash windows and macos because they want to feel 1337. With BSDs, there's just the users who trash linux and windows to feel 133t. So how exactly is the BSD userbase worse?
There are plenty of arrogant gentoo users, hell they even trash other linux distros and anyone who doesn't use gentoo. Step back and look at things objectively, there's plenty of shitheads no matter where you go, that's the stupidiest possible reason to not try something.
You have again clearly demonstrated that you do not understand that BSDs have a base system, and then locally installed optional packages. BSDs have developers. The OS is everything those developers maintain. KDE is not something they maintain, and is thus not part of the OS. Grep is something they maintain, and is part of the OS. If you don't want to try it and see how it works, then quit telling people who do know that they are wrong.
Also, you should probably stop breathing, the arrogant as hell userbase of air must be really turning you off of it. Or does the attitutude of a tiny fraction of a userbase only matter when deciding about something you already made up your mind not to like without ever trying it? Linux certainly has a lot of arrogant assholes who use it and trash everything that isn't linux all the time. You refuse to use it too?
The whole "lambda" function concept is dumb how exactly? If you mean python having neutered lambdas instead of real ones, sure that's dumb. But the concept of lambdas isn't dumb at all.
Userland refers to the non-kernel parts of the OS. Not whatever 3rd party applications that you choose to install.
KDE has nothing to do with this, find, grep, ifconfig, route, netstat, man pages, config files, etc, etc, etc are what the problem is.
And neither debian nor ubuntu make a distinction between the base OS and locally installed packages. Please try a BSD so you understand for yourself before making nonsense comments like this.
All the BSDs are great, recent Solaris versions are decent too, I don't find Solaris or Tru64 to be any worse than linux at least. HPUX has the single worst userland of any unix I have used, it is painfully outdated, lacks tons of functionality, and just plain blows.
Linux is just a kernel, this isn't my opinion, its a fact. How did you want me to back that up exactly? The userland included with every linux distro I know of come from a variety of authors, have far too many useless options, have outdated, incomplete or non-existant documentation in a variety of formats, and have nothing in common besides being lumped into a distro. If that's not "random assorted crap" I don't know what is.
If you don't know wether or not something is true, find out. Me saying its true in more words isn't going to change anything, learn to think for yourself. Its not hard to install a BSD and check out how EVERYTHING has an accurate and up to date man page. How man pages not being clear enough is considered a bug and is fixed. How the same group of people are responsable for the entire OS, and ensure consistant and sane behaviour from all userland tools. Compare it to your linux distro of choice, its not hard to see the difference.
No, the kernel doesn't make that big of a difference, and the kernel is all that linux is. BSDs are complete operating systems. The reason I don't use linux is because every distro comes with a messy userland full of random assorted crap from various sources, and most of the core utilities are bloated, poorly documented GNU junk.
The BSDs have sane, useful, documented and functional userlands, which makes them a joy to use. There is no reason that linux distros couldn't be made with a nice userland too, but nobody seems to have done it. It seems like most linux users have never used a nice unix system, so they don't realize what they are missing.