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Ending Spam

Shalendra Chhabra writes "Jonathan Zdziarski has been fighting spam since before the first MIT spam conference in 2003, and has now released a full-on technical book, Ending Spam, on spam filtering. Ending Spam covers how the current and near-future crop of heuristic and statistical filters actually work under the hood, and how you can most effectively use such filters to protect your inbox." Read on for the rest of Chhabra's review. Ending Spam: Bayesian Content Filtering and the Art of Statistical Language Classification author Jonathan A. Zdziarski pages 312 publisher No Starch Press rating 8 reviewer Shalendra Chhabra ISBN 1593270526 summary Very Good Book Covering Statistical Models and Techniques Implemented in Current Spam Filters

Spam (unsolicited commercial email) and phishing (fraudulent emails) are causing losses of billions of dollars to businesses. Many initiatives are currently underway for fighting this challenge. On the legal front, a Virginia court recently sentenced a prolific spammer, Jeremy Jaynes, to nine years in prison, and a Nigerian court sentenced a woman to two and a half years for phishing. Michigan and Utah have both passed laws creating "do-not-contact" registries in July/August 2005, covering e-mail addresses, instant messaging addresses and telephone numbers. Technical initiatives to fight spam include server- or client-side spam filtering, using Lists (Blacklists, Whitelists, Greylists), Email Authentication Standards (IIM, DK, DKIM, SPF, SenderID), and emerging sender reputation and accreditation services.

Ending Spam is the first book explaining the fine details of the theoretical models and machine-learning algorithms implemented in these filters. The book is divided into three parts: introduction to spam filtering, fundamentals of statistical filtering, and advanced concepts of statistical filtering.

The first section of the book discusses the history of spam, spam kings, different approaches for fighting spam such as blacklisting, whitelisting, heuristic filtering, challenge response, throttling, collaborative filtering, Authenticated SMTP, Sender Policy Framework and SenderID, spammer fingerprinting, etc. However, the author omitted any mention of locally-sensitive hash functions (such as Nilsimsa Hash) to counter spammers' random insertion of words, the use of CAPTCHA (Completely Automated Public Turing Test to Tell Computers and Humans Apart), Greylisting, Identified Internet Mail, and Domain Keys (now Domain Keys Identified Mail).

In the next chapter, the author clearly explains various components of a Language Classifier Pipeline, including the Historical Dataset (aka wordlist, database, dictionary, filter memory), Tokenizer, and the Analysis Engine with its feedback loop. However, the process flow of a language classifier could have been more generalized, e.g. incorporating an initial text-to-text transformer. This chapter also covers the advantages and disadvantages of various training modes for filters, such as Train Everything (TEFT), Train-on-Error (TOE), and Train Until No Errors (TUNE). This part concludes with the description of Paul Graham's famous spam-filtering technique using Bayesian classification (as described in "A Plan for Spam"), Gary Robinson's Geometric Mean Test, Fisher-Robinsons Inverse Chi Square (including the source code for the inversion function), and some other tricks for optimizing spam- filtering accuracy.

The second part of this book deals with the fundamentals of statistical filtering. The author explains HTML and Base64 encoding, followed by a detailed description of tokenization techniques (e.g. Sparse Binary Polynomial Hashing). Then there's a discussion of the various tricks that spammers use for penetrating filters. Although these tactics are mentioned in John Graham-Cumming's "Spammers Compendium," Jonathan has very elegantly explained why some tricks work for spammers and some don't. This part concludes by addressing some of the resource, storage and scaling concerns raised by the large number of features generated from tokenization techniques.

The third part of this book deals with advanced concepts of statistical filtering. This includes the testing criteria for measuring accuracy of an email filter, and some advanced tokenization concepts, e.g. chained tokens (taking word-pairs and phrases into account, instead of individual words) generated using a sliding 5-byte window as mentioned in Sparse Binary Polynomial Hashing. The next chapter describes the Markovian Model implemented in the CRM114 Discriminator, but the author fails to describe different weighting schemes for features implemented in the Markovian-based version of CRM114. The author then describes the Bayesian Noise Reduction Technique for purging "out of context" data from the mail text. This chapter concludes with a very nice summary of collaborative algorithms and techniques, such as Message Innoculation, Streamlined Blackhole List, Fingerprinting, Automatic Whitelisting, URL Blacklisting, and Honeypot email addresses for snaring spammers' address harvesting bots.

The most interesting part of this book is the appendix, where the author presents interviews with John Graham-Cumming of POPFile, Brian Burton of SpamProbe, Marty Lamb of TarProxy, Bill Yerazunis of CRM114 Discriminator, and Jonathan Zdziarski of DSPAM (himself). I loved this section.

The salient points of the book: it's very easy to read; each chapter begins with a very thought-provoking introduction, and concludes with a crisp "final thoughts" section. The number of technical errors are very few in this print, and the illustrations are of good quality. Since the book is geared more toward the Bayesian and statistical generation of spam filters, the absence of certain spam-busting technologies is acceptable. However, a noticeable omission is the lack of discussion about measuring spam-filter accuracy, and what impact this has on setting filtration thresholds. A section on the economics of tradeoffs, and the use of a Receiver Operating Characteristic curve (ROC) would have been very helpful.

Overall, by putting together Ending Spam, Jonathan Zdziarski has made another significant contribution (after DSPAM) to the anti-spam community. Whether you are a system administrator, anti-spam researcher, engineer or a newbie interested in fighting spam, this book is a great reference.

William S Yerazunis and Richard Jowsey also contributed to this review. Shalendra Chhabra is a Graduate Student in Department of Computer Science and Engineering at University of California, Riverside. He is on the development team of CRM114 Discriminator and has presented his work at MIT Spam Conference 2005, Cisco Systems, and Stanford University. You can purchase Ending Spam: Bayesian Content Filtering and the Art of Statistical Language Classification from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

184 comments

  1. You can't have both... by TarryTops · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The openness eill have to pay it's cost. and spam is one such pest. You can develop better strategies for pest control. But in the end it's a trade off.

    --
    Java Oracle Linux Enthusiast
  2. Bill Gates promised to end it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why worry about spam? Bill Gates promised to end spam by early next spring. (It's marked in my calendar along with the link to where he promised, but not with me in my PDA right now.)

    1. Re:Bill Gates promised to end it by Radres · · Score: 1

      Whoa, you weren't joking.

  3. Like most parasitic maldies by Stanistani · · Score: 1

    I'm wondering... will UCE (Spam) be like malaria... controllable in most areas but impossible to eradicate?

    Or will these dedicated folks and others be able to eliminate it, perhaps by changes to the mail protocols?

    1. Re:Like most parasitic maldies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UCE, is that like a UFIA?

    2. Re:Like most parasitic maldies by tarquin_fim_bim · · Score: 0

      You will never eliminate spam until you eliminate the markets for the goods they purvey. String up all the small penised fellows with weak erections and we shall all be free.

    3. Re:Like most parasitic maldies by FragHARD · · Score: 1

      don't forget the fellow who need to refinance every 3 months ;)

      --
      FragHARD or don't frag at all
    4. Re:Like most parasitic maldies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actualy, Malaria have been eradicated in quiet a lot of places.

      Check this link out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT

  4. Esprit d'Corps by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 5, Funny

    While all of these different technological approaches to spam are worth pursuing, they just don't build the same esprit d'corps as a mob with pitchforks and torches at midnight.

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    1. Re:Esprit d'Corps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      they just don't build the same esprit d'corps
      That's "esprit de corps", the apostrophe is used when it's next to a vowel ;)
    2. Re:Esprit d'Corps by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 1

      You know I initially wrote it as esprit de corps but I thought I was mangling it. That's what I get for thinking...

      --
      If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    3. Re:Esprit d'Corps by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Don't be silly.

      Mobs attacking spammers should only be armed with plastic spoons. All fourteen million of them.

      Remember, if you only poke them once, it's not only not murder, it's not even assault, and perfectly legal under the CAN-POKE-SPAMMERS act, as long as they have a 'business relationship' with you, which they obviously created by spamming you.

      And, to make it fair, they are allowed to opt out of any member of the mob poking them. One at a time, in writing, and we'll even waive the 48 hours to process it can traditionally take to process. (Of course, that person is free to go out and get some more people to stand in line, or even get back in line under another name.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    4. Re:Esprit d'Corps by ThePromenader · · Score: 1

      Mobs attacking spammers should only be armed with plastic spoons.

      Cue chant: "Go for the eyes! Go for the eyes!"

      --

      No, no sig. Really.

      ThePromenader
  5. Sorry for the flamebait but by suso · · Score: 1, Funny

    "Jonathan Zdziarski has been fighting spam since before the first MIT spam conference in 2003,"

    Awww, poor babies. That's a long time to fight spam.

    1. Re:Sorry for the flamebait but by Stanistani · · Score: 5, Informative

      From:
      HERE

      "ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
      Jonathan A. Zdziarski has been fighting spam for eight years, and has spent a significant portion of the past two years working on the next generation spam filter DSPAM. His research in algorithmic theory and neural networking has led to the development of many new approaches in language classification, and he has played a key role in designing some popular algorithms in use today, including Message Inoculation, Bayesian Noise Reduction, and the first functional Neural Networking algorithm for spam filters. Zdziarski lectures widely on the topic of spam and was a speaker at the 2004 and 2005 MIT Spam Conference.
      "

  6. The best way to fight spam by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 5, Funny

    is with a knife, a spatula, and a frying pan, preferably over a hot wood fire.

    Yum!

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:The best way to fight spam by E-Rock · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? I thought the safest thing to do was to throw it in the trash and then empty the trash. (Works on both the meat simulation and e-mail varities)

  7. Score -5 Outdated. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As with any book of this type, it is outdated by the time it reaches the shelves. The spam battlefield changes on a daily basis and the tools used to fight the battle, change with it daily.

    By the time a book has been written edited, proof read(though many publishers skip this part), type set, printed, distributed and sold, it no longer resembles the technology.

    1. Re:Score -5 Outdated. by jdowland · · Score: 1

      Actually, the book argues the exact opposite. Spam technology has been forced to change at a quick rate because heuristic rules were derived by human beings. By contrast, the statistical approach (he argues) is more accurate, needs less interference by a human and is impossible to game enough to guarantee profitable spam delivery. He argues that if the majority of email accounts were protected by statistical filtering, whilst spam would still be possible, it wouldn't be profitable.

  8. You can't catch it all by solodex2151 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Spam will continue to disguise itself as legit email. You can try to filter it out and set more strict filters but catching legitimate mail is far more likely to happen. In the end, you have to make a trade off and practically accept some spam.

    1. Re:You can't catch it all by MightyMartian · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The root problem is with SMTP. We can try to patch it up with SPF and SenderID, we can try to find ways of putting identifiers on emails, but at the end of the day the protocol itself was built in a simpler age.

      The ultimate solution will come when we move to a new-generation mail delivery system. But the day is a long ways off, because the sheer cost of implementing such a system and the necessity of having it integrate with older SMTP systems for the years required for large-scale adoption means that spammers have a healthy length of time to irritate us.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:You can't catch it all by plover · · Score: 4, Interesting
      You've missed the last two years in spammer technology, haven't you?

      Spam is no longer simply the domain of a giant server with a huge database. It's increasingly being sent out by zombie PCs, infected with viruses or trojans. Spammers pay the zombie-farmers to send their crap. Zombies send the email masquerading as the PC owner, using their credentials. Sender-ID? No problem, he's got one. SMTP? Sure, use the victim's server.

      Zombies mean that no matter what technology is used for sending validated, signed, pre-paid, whatever email, the zombies will have access to those resources and will still spew their crap. No anti-spam server technologies are going to prevent Windows machines from getting infested.

      --
      John
    3. Re:You can't catch it all by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I'm well aware of the zombie problem (having been the recipient of very nasty distributed dictionary attacks). The way that mail ought to work is that any system without an MX record ought not to be permitted to send email to an MTA. Unfortunately for a variety of reasons (from legitimate to pure incompetence or laziness) many mail servers do not have MX or reverse records, and because sufficient amounts of legitimate email come from such servers, and because there is no line drawn between MTA and MUA (all go through port 25TCP), zombies can quite happily spread havoc.

      The first step to a new mail system is to assure that only legitimate and properly configured mail servers honoring MX records on outgoing mail (or whatever ends up replacing MX records) can expect delivery. Mail admins' hands are tied by stealth systems or badly configured ones, but if we do try to implement the no-MX rule, which would eliminate the zombie attacks, we end up shutting out systems that, for whatever reason, don't publish an MX record for outgoing servers.

      Zombies ought to be the easiest thing to shut down by a) not permitting non-MTA machines to push anything beyond the network via port 25 and b) publishing both incoming and outgoing mail servers.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:You can't catch it all by 51mon · · Score: 1

      First someone needs to invent a methodology for communication that prevents spam.

      No good saying SMTP is broke, if you don't say how to fix it conceptually. Otherwise the solution will end up as spam free as SPF is (SPF never set out to stop spam, but to stop impersonation, but that isn't how it was sold).

      Ultimately the protocol has to have a way to shifting costs to the sender, or at least offer that option , and these costs may have to be larger than the cost of the communication itself (which may be neglible).

      I personally believe the brokenness of SMTP is exagerrated, and the brokeness of the many client machines running botnets is underestimated.

      The problem with the book, is it addresses how to do content filtering, when it isn't the content of spam that is the problem. The old adage about scientists making a living studying a problem, and engineers making a living avoiding such problems, springs to mind.

      Which is why methods that address the underlying issues (bulk, unsolicited, compromised boxes) often work better (think whitelisting, greylisting, challenge/response (whatever you think of it, it is effective for the person using it), Exploit block lists) than statistical filtering, or statistical weighting of a number of rules.

    5. Re:You can't catch it all by iburrell · · Score: 1

      Except that this doesn't stop the zombie sending spam AS THE VICTIM. The worm can impersonate the user whose machine it owns. It can send email through the victim's ISP using the username and password it has captured. The ISP will eventually shut them down but the only result is that the victim loses their email access and potentially gets on a blacklist. Also, as has been demonstrated with Sender-ID, spammers will setup servers with MX records and all the authentication needed to send out email. They will eventually get added to blacklists but as long as the authentication isn't centralized and tightly controlled, they can keep setting up new servers.

    6. Re:You can't catch it all by Fareq · · Score: 1

      I saw this somewhere else, and I liked it... so, here goes:

        Your post advocates a

      (*) technical ( ) legislative ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante

      approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

      ( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
      ( ) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
      ( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
      ( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
      (*) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
      ( ) Users of email will not put up with it
      ( ) Microsoft will not put up with it
      ( ) The police will not put up with it
      ( ) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
      (*) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
      ( ) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
      ( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
      ( ) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

      Specifically, your plan fails to account for

      ( ) Laws expressly prohibiting it
      (*) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
      (*) Open relays in foreign countries
      ( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
      ( ) Asshats
      ( ) Jurisdictional problems
      ( ) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
      ( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
      (*) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
      ( ) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
      ( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
      (*) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
      ( ) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
      ( ) Extreme profitability of spam
      ( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
      ( ) Technically illiterate politicians
      ( ) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
      ( ) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
      ( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
      ( ) Outlook

      and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

      (*) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever been shown practical
      ( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
      ( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
      ( ) Blacklists suck
      ( ) Whitelists suck
      ( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
      ( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
      ( ) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
      ( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
      ( ) Sending email should be free
      ( ) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
      ( ) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
      ( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
      ( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
      ( ) I don't want the government reading my email
      ( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

      Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

      (*) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
      ( ) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
      ( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your house down!

    7. Re:You can't catch it all by farnz · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Trouble is that a zombie has access to the user's legitimate mail system, which they can abuse.

      In the end, no technical solution is really going to solve it; you're using "is this machine meant to send mail?" as a heuristic for "is this mail junk mail?". As you can't define junk mail objectively, in computer-friendly criteria, any filter is inevitably going to make mistakes. The only question is whether your filter tends towards false positives or false negatives.

    8. Re:You can't catch it all by lupin_sansei · · Score: 1

      Your saying that sooner or later spam will be almost indistinguishable from legitimate mail? Don't you see once this happens the spammers will have lost as they will fail to be able to deliver their sales message - which is the point of spam - to send a sales message to many people. Once they can't deliver their message they will go out of business.

  9. Ending Spam? by demonbug · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Does anyone else find it funny that a book called "Ending Spam" talks about spam filtering? Maybe I'll go write a book; "Ending World Hunger: How To Filter Sally Struthers From Your Television".

    If you can't see it, it ain't there?

    1. Re:Ending Spam? by DogDude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I think that most rational people would understand the title to mean "Ending spam as it pertains to ME". In which case, as far as most people are concerned, if they don't see spam, then the spam problem is solved. I really don't think that that is an inordinate amount of literacy license.

      And yes, if you don't see it, then unless you're a system administrator (can't be more than 0.001% of the population), the problem IS solved. The problem isn't spam per se, but that spam clogs up MY inbox.

      It's just like anything else. Nobody is going to end spam altogether... that's just naive. But if you don't see it any more, then the problem (again, spam filling up MY inbox), then it's fixed. I don't give two shits as to what some upstream sysadmin has to do to stop it. I have my own problems, and that's part fo his job. Just stop spam from getting to ME, and I'm all good.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    2. Re:Ending Spam? by pomo+monster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, in a way, and I don't mean philosophically. If nobody can see the spam, then it really will dry up--spammers won't even bother.

      There's no such thing as a perfect filtering system, but for every message blocked, that's extra effort for the spammer to get through, making it less and less worthwhile to spam at all.

      Or maybe they'll just send more and more, hoping at least one gets through.

    3. Re:Ending Spam? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is: if no one sees spam, then the spammers go out of business, and spam really does go away.

    4. Re:Ending Spam? by Gob+Gob · · Score: 1

      I am seeing it as more of a pyramid scheme. There are a few people taken in to BE spammers and the gross effect is moved to those who take the net benifit.

      The tone of SPAM still has the "INSERT ad here feel" but the is also a rise in my logs of "Reach x people via this new wonderland of internet marketing" - it stinks of a "join in now and you can be a bronze->silver->gold spammer in no time".

      Basically put if you tell someone it works and it can work for them then why would they not try to "get in on the ground level"? ....but the real question is how do we stop human nature.....(not really a question)

    5. Re:Ending Spam? by dodobh · · Score: 1

      How much more are you willing to pay for that?

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
  10. fantastic advice by Anonymous+Spammer · · Score: 2, Interesting
    We spammers love you idiots who use spam filters. You were never going to buy from us or fall for our scheems anyway, so you do extra work to filter your e-mail and that way we are not bothered by you reporting us or attacking us. We are free to continue to waste your bandwidth and overflow your inbox, but you never see the spam and you leave us alone, to keep spamming those too ignorant to protect themselves. The complaints die down and we get what we want, the unknowing victims. What a great system.

    Heck, our lobby group even points out to Congress how spam laws are not really needed, since people who really don't want the spam are free to filter it. That and a litte payola and we are free to phish for more victims.

    Yea, keep "fighting spam" with lame filters, we love it. Thanks!

    --
    No Karma is given if one is modded up "funny".
  11. Is spam a parasitic malady and, if so, what next? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm wondering... will UCE (Spam) be like malaria... controllable in most areas but impossible to eradicate?

    Or will these dedicated folks and others be able to eliminate it, perhaps by changes to the mail protocols?


    Interesting question that, considering my work involves malaria.

    My guess is that, like malaria and most parasitic infestations, we will at some point develop a "cure". The "cure" will work for a few years, after which the parasite (spam) will have adapted, surviving until then in different hosts (old windows machines donated to Africa, who knows). Then, having developed a new trick, it will come back as strong as ever.

    Biology teaches us that organisms adapt to changing environments, thru selective breeding (natural), point mutations, and unforseen combinations (see the H51N avian influenza). We can develop cures, but once we do so, we can be fairly sure that, baring species extinction, it will develop methods to cope with our cures.

    An easy solution would be to move to IPv6 - but this, like authentication, will only kill off the spam which doesn't use "trusted email clients that are identified" while the spam that can survive will be encouraged to spread like wildfire.

    So long as the fiscal, legal, and societal penalties for spamming are fairly low and the rewards are high, and while most people do nothing about it, it will spread.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  12. Email is mostly broken by mcrbids · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Email, as a system, is fundamentally broken. It's this broken design that allows SPAM to happen in the first place.

    Current anti-spam solutions are to email what an Antivirus package is to Windows - a hack add-on that increases complexity and costs without solving the underlying problem(s).

    Rather than fight viruses, we should be engineering an O/S that's inherently resistent to them. How many of you Linux/BSD/MacOS users EVER use antivirus, or need to?

    Rather than build ever-better antispam filters for Email, we should be engineering an email solution that's inherenly resistant to SPAM.

    The answer lies in authentication - who is sending the email. Some of the best technologies now available use degrees of authentication without actually *saying* it outright. Examples are: refusing invalid domains, greylisting, challenge-response, SenderID - all of these are some form of authentication.

    As these are, one-by-one bypassed by the spammers, the need for authentication of senders will continue to increase, until the dolts who will invariably reply with that "your solution will not work because... (check the options)" are shown to simply be.... wrong.

    Give it time. It's already happening whatever the originators of the SMTP protocol desired.

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    1. Re:Email is mostly broken by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The answer lies in authentication

      And it requires central control. Is this what you want?

    2. Re:Email is mostly broken by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The problem with these is that they're all duct-tape jobs on the SMTP protocol. The SMTP protocol has fundemental problems in that it essentially has no sender verification and has been configured as much by tradition as anything else to allow MTAs and MUAs to be effective equivalents. To some extent SPF and SenderID try to overcome the verification problems, but at least SPF has serious problems when it comes to forwarding unless header rewriting is done.

      I suppose the "legitimate" spam (not generated by zombies through various sorts of attacks) may always be around, because I can think of no efficient and streamlined means of allowing a user to configure automatic settings saying "Don't send me commercial spam". With a properly designed transport system, at least it should be possible to easily blacklist abusive domains.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Email is mostly broken by MemeRot · · Score: 1
      I read an article on informationweek.com that says spammers are enthusiastically adopting sender id in an attempt to legitimize themselves, or at least avoid filtering.


      But since spamming is legal, those spammers not engaged in phishing or other fraud may choose to accurately identify their mail servers to avoid filtering based on Sender ID compliance. And that seems to be what's happening. Based on a sample of 400,000 spam messages, MX Logic found that 16% had published SPF records.


      So spammers have a 16% adoption rate of sender id, legit businesses have an 18% adoption rate. Doesn't look too successful yet.
    4. Re:Email is mostly broken by huckda · · Score: 1

      so is snail mail...
      I receive just as much "spam" in my mailbox as I do in my "inbox"...the difference? I can use anti-spam software on the inbox..and the mailbox is USPS property :(

      --
      "Just Smile and Nod." --Huck
    5. Re:Email is mostly broken by MrAnnoyanceToYou · · Score: 3, Informative

      You asked for it, Here It Is. You have officially scored the lowest I have ever personally seen, and I had to actually ADD negative things to the checklist just for you.

      Yes, it's a possibility. Unfortunately, in this case the 'dolts who invariably reply with the survey' are actually right. The survey is funny, but it serves a very important purpose in this case - it shows that completely re-engineering the entire e-mail system means that the problems we have are masked temporarily and then reemerge. Identity, no identity, in the end the 'stopgaps' are actually better than the 'build it from the ground up' solution.

      You Personally advocate a

      (x) technical (x) legislative (x) market-based ( ) vigilante

      approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

      (x) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
      (x) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
      (x) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
      ( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
      (x) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
      (x) Users of email will not put up with it
      ( ) Microsoft will not put up with it
      ( ) The police will not put up with it
      (x) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
      (x) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
      (x) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
      (x) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
      (x) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

      Specifically, your plan fails to account for

      ( ) Laws expressly prohibiting it
      (N/A) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
      (x) Open relays in foreign countries
      ( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
      (x) Asshats
      (x) Jurisdictional problems
      (x) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
      ( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
      (x) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
      (x) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
      (x) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
      (x) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
      (x) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
      (x) Extreme profitability of spam
      ( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
      (x) Technically illiterate politicians
      (x) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
      (x) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with Microsoft
      (x) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with Yahoo
      (x) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
      ( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
      ( ) Outlook

      and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

      (x) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever been shown practical
      (x) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
      (x) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
      (x) Blacklists suck
      ( ) Whitelists suck
      ( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
      (x) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
      (x) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
      ( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
      (x) Sending email should be free
      (x) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
      (x) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
      ( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
      ( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
      (x) I don't want the government reading my email
      ( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

      Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

      ( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
      (x) This is a stupid idea, and you're a fascist for suggesting it.
      ( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your house down!

    6. Re:Email is mostly broken by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      I can use anti-spam software on the inbox..and the mailbox is USPS property

            Not only that, but companies pay the post office a lot of money to put their junk mail in your box, which is why the USPS is not about to stop it. Spam, however, doesn't cost the spammer much (apart from the software and know-how to get set up). Then they can tie up a virtually limitless amount of bandwidth at no additional cost, until they get caught. The cost of this is borne by ISPs and ultimately everyone on the net in terms of infrastructure and lag/dropped packets.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    7. Re:Email is mostly broken by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Another big difference is that the companies that pay to mail paper advertisements subsidize the costs for the post office to enable you to send letters for 39 cents. The spammers on the other hand add huge amounts of bandwidth usage to ISP and backbones bills without paying for any of it, forcing them to increase the amounts they charge for service.

      Ads sent by paper mail reduce your costs to send normal paper mail.

      Ads sent by email *increase* your costs for Internet (email) service. (And this is true wether or not you have filter software that hides the undesirable messages from you - it still cost time, bandwidth, diskspace to transmit and store)

    8. Re:Email is mostly broken by Itanshi · · Score: 1

      mmmm dunno if this's been said, but i'll take my chance. If i had a filter that spell checked the subjects and or blocked ascii code misue, that'd clean alot of crap out x_x heck if hotmail had that i'd think about using it.... nevermind i'll stick with gmail

    9. Re:Email is mostly broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, SPF is a good and lightweight first step to authorized (not authenticated!) email. Take a look at http://spf.pobox.com/ for more information.

      Microsoft tried to hijack this with their SenderID system, which would have been a central authorization system and which has been harshly rejected by almost all of the actual SPF developers.

    10. Re:Email is mostly broken by PhoenixRising · · Score: 0

      In a word: yes.

      It doesn't require extreme centralization of control. All it takes is a moderately sized list of commonly trusted authorities.

      We already have this for websites; look at how HTTPS works. There's a list of well-known CAs that are installed on most browsers/OSes. It's generally accepted that the folks on that list (Thawte, Verisign, etc.) do at least a cursory evaluation of identity before handing out a cert. And if you don't like the criteria one CA uses, you can drop them from your trusted CA list.

      In fact, it seems to me that S/MIME could be a significant tool in fighting spam. There's an already-extant group of at least moderately trustworthy CAs. All common mail clients support it out of the box. It can grow incrementally, from being used for advisory spam tagging to out-and-out rejection of unsigned mail at the MTA. I'd love to see it expand in use in the coming years.

    11. Re:Email is mostly broken by jemfinch · · Score: 1
      The answer lies in authentication - who is sending the email.

      No, the answer isn't authentication. The answer is economics.

      Right now, the recipient pays the primary cost of an email. All the sender has to do is connec to a server, dump some data, and be done. The recipient, on the other hand, has to sort out to whom that data belongs, store it, cache it, pass it on to other systems, drop it in mailboxes, etc. On top of this, the recipient's server must always be online just in case some more mail comes in.

      Instead, the sender should pay these costs. The sender should be the one to store, cache, and deliver email. The sender's server should be the one required always to be online. If the sender were responsible for more of the costs of sending mail, spam wouldn't be such a problem.

      A system like this has already been designed, of course: it's Internet Mail 2000 (a somewhat anachronistic name, these days). So many of the things that SMTP servers currently do (mailing list management, mailing list archives, message receipt confirmation, bounces, etc.) would become unnecessary if such a system were in place instead of SMTP.

      But alas, SMTP has inertia, and inertia goes a long way, apparently.

      Jeremy
    12. Re:Email is mostly broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. You are an incredible moron. What could you possibly have read into my posts that account for all of these?

      It seems to me that you read something very different than what I wrote. I write the SMTP is broken, and needs to have some form of authentication to fix its shortcomings. You respond with, (among others) "Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable".

      WTF?!?!?

      You really do qualify as a "dolt". Don't be offended - enjoy the title! You obviously worked hard for it!

    13. Re:Email is mostly broken by Gob+Gob · · Score: 1

      I hear you but many small businesses dont have the tech to put all this in place - let alone the money to pay consultants to do it for them.

      It may be a lacking protocol but how does the world change overnight to make the move to another?

      Some of the most honest businesses out their require are person to take an email of a list because they said REMOVE - and so they should.

      (Not a dig @ you) But should mom&pop businesses wind their commercial use of the internet back in because it is only the domain of BIB businesses who can afford the knowledge / time / effort of doing something in the "right" way?

      I am happy to make it "fair go" and block / blacklist / etc those who are on the extremes.

    14. Re:Email is mostly broken by Grax · · Score: 1

      efficient and streamlined means of allowing a user to configure automatic settings saying "Don't send me commercial spam".

      Easily added into the SMTP protocol.

      C: mail from: <commercial.sender@example.com>
      S: 200 OK
      C: rcpt to: <joe.schmoe@example.org>
      S: 200 OK
      C: mail type: <commercial(closeout,electronics)>
      S: 500 User rejects commercial email in these categories
      or
      S: 200 OK
      C: data

      or something like that. On incompatible servers the "mail type" line will generate an error that will be ignored and on compatible servers the end user's preferences will be checked.

  13. Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Read some of his essays. He genuinely believes that all evidence clearly shows that the earth cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old.

    The contract between being a logical minded person like a programmer, and being so easily brainwashed into believing comeplete nonsense is startling.

    1. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by david.given · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Read some of his essays. He genuinely believes that all evidence clearly shows that the earth cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old.

      This may be the case; however, that doesn't invalidate his work on spam. Remember, Sir Isaac Newton was a firm believer in the more exotic aspects of mystical alchemy, and the vast bulk of his 'research' was complete gibberish. That doesn't make his work on gravity any less valuable.

    2. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      This isn't about his work on spam, its about a book. When someone's writing demonstrates that they are crazy, its worth keeping that in mind when reading their other writing. I didn't say DSPAM sucks because he is crazy, I just pointed out that he is crazy, and what he says may or may not have any basis in reality.

    3. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      No, anyone who has demonstrated they are capable of logical thought, and then proceeds to discard all logic and believe something completely rediculous, even going out of their way to make up nonsense to dismiss all the facts is crazy.

      I never said anything about creationism, or any particular religion. I said he belives the world cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old, which is completely insane.

    4. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just about every creationist and born again christian out there believes that the world is around that old. Why? Because there's some evidence to support the claim. Constants of the universe make it impossible for the Sun's burn rate or the world's slowing down (leap seconds) to go back millions of years. Biblical texts claim to record the lineage back to the first human inhabitants, which brings people back about 10,000 years. And finally, Zdiarski makes a good point that if the Bible is true, then half-life might have not always been constant.

      What I find insane is people who will immediately dismiss something (and apparently someONE) without even considering any real evidence apart from their own personal opinion. Pht.

    5. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. As the other replier to your posts said, this does not in any way invalidate his work on spam. As long as something is testable and built on solid theory, I don't care who said it.

      However, the essays on that page really are downright disturbing. Some quotes:

      "The Bible is the oldest and most reproduced document in existence. Having this quality, it is the most likely to be authoritative in explaining the logical progression of how we ended up where we are."

      "Christianity is Logical"

      "Theorists believe that order emerged from chaos, but society is rapidly degenerating, where it should be becoming more ordered if this theory held water. With this observation, it is very difficult to support the theory that the world started in chaos. If indeed it had started in chaos, it would end in chaos. If society is degenerating as we observe, then clearly the world had to begin at the opposite end of the spectrum - order."

      "The theory that the earth is billions of years old is almost a laughable concept to me"

      All from this essay. I'm sure it gets even worse at the end of it, but I couldn't read the whole thing. Too depressing. How this man is capable of enough intelligent thought do create an apparently decent book on spam filtering is beyond me.

    6. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      the earth cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old.

      "Nonsense. The earth is as old as we are, no older. How could it be older? Nothing exists except through human consciousness." - 1984, George Orwell.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    7. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Biblical texts claim to record the lineage back to the first human inhabitants

            These are the same biblical texts in which no one seems to agree on what the actual amount of time involved is when the word "day" or "year" is used?

            I think that argument needs to be cleared up and defined correctly before using "biblical time" as a standard by which other things are measured. But since this will never happen, I personally will choose to use more rational and consistent sources of time measurement as a reference.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    8. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can carve out a slice of scientists, nasa astronauts, and the rest of the cream of the crop too then.

      Fine with me. Those people are exactly the ones that shouldn't be where they are anyway.

      As for the "scientists", they are already quite carved out, so to speak. Nobody in the scientific world takes a a creationist seriously.

    9. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, no. The six days of creation are unrelated to the record of lineage and ages. There's some discussion of whether the first six days of creation took literal days, years, or decades, but in light of plenty of other evidence outside of christian circles, there just isn't enough data to support the claim that the earth is millions or billions of years old. Isotopes are only one datapoint, there are many other datapoints that conflict with that.

    10. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by protohiro1 · · Score: 1

      I think it is very possible that Mr. Zdziarski is very intelligent and has written an excellent book on the subject. The fact that he seems to have made some pretty horrific logical contortions to try and defend his religion as if it is a science has no bearing on that fact. I wouldn't read a book on theology, science or logic that he wrote, because his grasp on both issues is pretty tenuous. But he seems to be an expert on spam, so his expertise on the subject is valuable.

      --
      Sig removed because it was obnoxious
    11. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      No, there are no other data points that conflict with it. Saying "leap seconds prove its impossible" doesn't actually prove anything. Give some real evidence, not just regurgitating some other psycho's nonsense. Bullshit doesn't smell better just because you have alot of it.

    12. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      No, lots of Christains and creationist have common sense. Being a creationist doesn't mean you believe the current Christian interpretation of the bible, just that some form of higher being made the world. And being a Christain doesn't mean you believe every crazy thing another Christain says either.

      You do realize the bible says nothing about the age of the earth right? That the 6,000-10,000 figures are the wildly speculative opinions of assorted people's interpretations of the bible, not actually the bible, or any other religious text, right? There's no reason for any Christain to believe that nonsense, as it has nothing to do with their faith.

      And I didn't dismiss anyone or anything. I simply pointed out that he is insane, and his writings should be considered in that light. Keep in mind he is the one dismissing all scientific evidence regarding the age of the earth, so even you consider him insane then.

    13. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      The six days of creation are unrelated to the record of lineage and ages.

            I only have your word for it.

            You can't define something in terms of itself, and no other "evidence" exists to confirm or deny the "truths" in the Good Book. Only what people say about it. What they believe.

            On the other hand I can define radioactive decay for you in many consistent ways, and can prove its consistency by obtaining reproducible experimental results. Do you want to define it in terms of a change in counts per unit time? Or in the increase in the amount of decay products created over time? The change in mass over time, perhaps?

            You can deny the truth if you want. This would make you an irrational person, since the truth is true no matter what people think about it. There is not much point arguing with a fool, as the self same proverbs say.

            Or your alternative is to try to pick a logical flaw in how I apply the truth about radioactive decay to explain the age of the world. It's entirely possible that there is a mistake there and the truth has been misapplied to mean something it doesn't. We are, after all, only human. How exactly do you plan to do this? I am an open minded person. But simply claiming that it's not true does not make it untrue. You have to prove it if you expect recognition. I am open minded but also a critical thinker.

            By the way, what dictionary is "datapoint" in? I failed to find it and am not clear on your meaning, yet you used this obviously new compound word twice.

            I should know better than respond to an AC post, but what the heck. I'm bored.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    14. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      from the new oxford american dictionary:

      datapoint: an identifiable element in a data set : software that can quickly process tens of thousands of datapoints.

    15. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jonathan Zdziarski != Sir Isaac Newton

      Whatever his views on Christianity you might like to read the following review that came from JGC's anti-spam newsletter:

      I got a copy of Jonathan Zdziarski's "Ending Spam" and made it a bit
      of my vacation reading. Finally, someone has chronicled and digested
      the discussions associated with the MIT Spam Conference that were
      spawned by Paul Graham's, now famous, "A Plan for Spam" web page.

      The book is written the Jonathan's no-holds barred, axe-to-grind,
      humorous, dogmatic style. I'm glad that someone took the time to
      publish the collected wisdom that's come out of the MIT Spam
      Conference. If you want to know about spam filters based on the
      "Bayesian" approach then Jonathan's book is the one for you.

      The book does have its faults: the most glaring was that Bayes Theorem
      is never actually explained (there's a single sentence that tries to
      capture what it does) and the book is partly a chronicle of decisions
      Jonathan made in implementing his DSPAM filter. That's particularly
      evident in Chapters 8 (Data Storage for a Zillion Records) and 9
      (Scaling in Large Environments) which could have been ommitted
      altogether. Chapter 2 (Historical Approaches to Fighting Spam) is
      incomplete and throughout the book Jonathan never misses a chance to
      bash non-statistical spam filters.

      The chapters I most enjoyed were 11 (Concept Identification: Advanced
      Tokenization) and 12 (Fifth-Order Markovian Discrimination). Chapter
      12 was coauthored with CRM114 impresario Bill Yerazunis. And the core
      chapters on tokenization (6) and the algorithms used for statistical
      filtering (4) are where the real action is. Chapter 5 (Decoding:
      Uncombobulating Messages) is disappointingly brief and lacking in
      clear explanations of the encodings commonly found in email.

      Overall if you want to know about statistical spam filtering then buy
      this book. If you want to know more about machine learning that get
      the classic text book by Tom Mitchell: "Machine Learning".

      Two things bugged me in the book: firstly the author's definition of
      spam filtering accuracy as a single percentage based on number of
      errors the filter makes (i.e. there's no attempt to measure the Spam
      Hit Rate and Ham Strike Rate separately), and, secondly, the poor
      index.

    16. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by oliderid · · Score: 1

      It is a book about spam. Programmers are human beeings too. they are irrational.

    17. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gentlemen, why all the fuss? The Onion provides definitive evidence for alternative theories:

      http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133& n=2

    18. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Lars+T. · · Score: 1
      Let's go on quoting the discussion/interrogation between Winston and O'Brien:
      'But the rocks are full of the bones of extinct animals -- mammoths and mastodons and enormous reptiles which lived here long before man was ever heard of.'

      'Have you ever seen those bones, Winston? Of course not. Nineteenth-century biologists invented them. Before man there was nothing. After man, if he could come to an end, there would be nothing. Outside man there is nothing.'

      'But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach for ever.'

      'What are the stars?' said O'Brien indifferently. 'They are bits of fire a few kilometres away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the centre of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it.'

      Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection:

      'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?'

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    19. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1
      Whether you believe the earth to be <10,000 years or as many as 15 billion has nothing to do with your ability to be intelligent. Lots of stupid people belive the earth is billions of years old. So do lots of smart people. THe same is true of people who belive in a young earth: there are dumb ones and smart ones.

      That you think that an understanding based on available evidence and the man's personal religious beliefs is irrational shows that you aren't willing to hear alternative ideas, and that you're probably stupid.

      Being stupid isn't always a bad thing, it normally just means you're uninformed. Before you go lambasting this guy's belief that the available evidence points to a young earth, maybe you should talk to him. Or to others who belive the same thing.

      But, I guess that since you're dismissing him out of hand, the myriad people who do believe in a young earth are all illogical, brainwashed people.

      I would love to talk to you about this off Slashdot, if you're willing to continue the conversation. Unfortunately, most people aren't willing to listen to the other side of the argument.

    20. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      I don't much care for conversations with people who ignore what I say, and instead reply to the twisted version of what I say that they somehow got in their heads. People who call me stupid because I don't "accept" nutjobs making up bullshit and trying to pretend its science, without bothering with tedious things like facts, or evidence, or research.

      I never called him stupid, just crazy. I never dismissed anything, he did. And if you read his writing on the topic, there is no other conclusion you can come to. He actively makes up rediculous excuses to dismiss evidence he doesn't like, while providing no evidence to support his belief at all. That is delusional, like it or not.

      I would love for you to learn how to hear what people say, instead of twisting what they say to suit your prejudice.

    21. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1
      I always listen to "hear what people say, instead of twisting what they say". Apparently you wanted to twist what I said, though.

      It's really a shame that you don't want to have a sane, reasonable discussion. Then again, this is Slashdot.

    22. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      No, what you said is very clear. You called me stupid, and you twisted my words to pretend I called him stupid. You are the one making up a twisted version of reality to argue in, not me. If you can't go back and read the posts and see this for yourself, then clearly nobody can have a sane or resonable discussion with you.

    23. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1
      I'm going to cite your entire parent post: "Read some of his essays. He genuinely believes that all evidence clearly shows that the earth cannot possibly be more than 10,000 years old.
      The contract between being a logical minded person like a programmer, and being so easily brainwashed into believing comeplete nonsense is startling.
      "

      There's no twisting going on here, just calling your spade a spade. You referred to him as "so easily brainwashed into believing comeplete nonsense is startling". That's calling him stupid in my book, or anyone else's.

      Quoting myself: "Being stupid isn't always a bad thing, it normally just means you're uninformed. Before you go lambasting this guy's belief that the available evidence points to a young earth, maybe you should talk to him. Or to others who belive the same thing." I didn't ignore you or twist what you said. Quoting you again, "People who call me stupid because I don't "accept" nutjobs making up bullshit and trying to pretend its science, without bothering with tedious things like facts, or evidence, or research."

      Science can not define origins. Since science is based upon the observable, and no one was around to observe the origin of the universe and life, you can't define it within science. You can define origins only within philosophy, worldview, or religion, but not with science. What Jonathan believes -- along with myself and myriad others -- is that we were specially created by God in His image. I believe that the entire earth was created in 6 days by God, and that we are the crowning glory of creation, having been made in His image.

      I fully believe in the fall of Adam, and in the total depravity of the human race since. I believe in the efficacious redemptive work of Jesus Christ's death on the cross and resurrection the morning of the third day to pay for my sins.

      Go ahead and call me irrelevant, or even irrational, if you want. I have one question for you: if it doesn't matter whether or not I or you believe in God, why are you bothering to cast aspersions on Jonathan's and my beliefs? Go ahead, don't believe in God if you don't want to. If you're right, then this whole argument doesn't matter, and you have no reason to worry about Jonathan or myself.

      But if you're wrong, then you have a lot to worry about. And you're arguing against us to make yourself feel better, because if we're right, you know you're under God's anger right now, and are heading for Hell when you die. If we're right, you have to argue against us to defend your position, so that you can feel good about not having been rescued from damnation.

      Don't blast Jonathan and me just because you don't believe in God.

    24. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      Clearly you are incapable of reading and comprehending what I am saying, so there is no point in talking to you. You quoted me, where I said nothing about stupid at all, and then said that it means stupid. Guess what, I said it, not you. You cannot decide what I did and did not say, I SAID IT. I believe he has some form of psychological problem, not that he is stupid. If you thought about it for a second, you would see how rediculous that idea is. I clearly pointed out that he is a programmer, and thus not stupid.

      As for the rest of your nonsense, you are still trying desperately to redirect the subject to your pointless strawmen. There is nothing I can do to make this clearer for you, and since you refuse to simply discuss what I say, and instead insist on talking about what you wish I said, there is no dealing with you.

      I said nothing about him believing in god, or believing in creationism. I said he is crazy for believing the world is no more than 10,000 years old. There is a huge pile of scientific evidence that shows the earth is older than that, and NOTHING that shows it is that young. He actively dismisses scientific evidence with no reasonable explanations, to believe something made up by a person very recently, which has no evidence, and isn't even supported by the bible.

      Are you really so desperate for attention that you need to argue against your imagination? If so, please go do it alone, you don't need anyone else involved.

    25. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1
      Clearly you are incapable of reading and comprehending what I am saying, so there is no point in talking to you.

      So, why do you keep responding to me if there is no point in talking to me? Obviosuly there must be some point in discussing this further. If people like Jonathan and I have "some form of psychological problem", you should just go about your merry way and ignore us. If it's true, then we cause you no harm.

      I believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old because I believe in a literal reading of Genesis 1 with its creation account. People haven't been around long enough to actually know the age of the earth, we can only surmise based on available oservations. Humanistic schools of thought look at current processes and determine that the earth must be X years old because of how long geological activities take today. Theistic schools of thought begin with the assumption that if there is a supreme being who could make the entire earth, He could make it as fast as He wanted, and to appear as old as He desired.

      Carrying through my view, with God having made man a full-grown adult on the 6th day of creation, and having made all other creatures ready to "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." [Gen 1:22] & "Then God said, 'Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind'; and it was so." [Gen 1:24], it is reasonable to conclude that the earth could also have been made to appear 'old'.

      If you continue with my understanding of as literal a reading of the Bible as possible, a few chapters later when God sends the flood to cover the earth, it is reasonable to believe that such a world-wide catastrophe could have caused much of the grand expanses of erosion we see today. It is also reasonable to believe that such a world-wide event could cause most of the fossils we have discovered in digging through the layers of the earth.

      If you discount a literal understanding of creation and the flood, then it could be resonable to believe that the earth is extremely old.

      The beliefs that Jonathan and I share about the age of the earth are apparently in opposition to your own, which is understandable.

      My question to you now is, why are you so hostile towards us? As I pointed out above, if we're wrong, there's no point in worrying about it. It's only if we're right that you have something to worry about with your beliefs.

    26. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      I am not hostile to him. I am hostile to you because of the approach you took in pretending I was attacking you, and constantly throwing strawmen around while claiming you want a discussion. If you act like an asshole, people are likely to be hostile to you, either get used to it or stop acting like an asshole.

      I simply said that I think Jonathan is insane, and that people reading his writing should be aware of what he thinks, so they can judge wether or not they think he is sane. You will find you might read someone's writing in a slightly different light if you believe that they are not mentally well. That's not hostile.

      And finally, I didn't say you were insane, I said he was. For all I know you do not possess the ability to think rationally and logically, and so its not a real shock that you would ignore all scientific evidence for the sake of believing in something that has nothing to do with your religion, and pretending it is part of your religion. Jonathan however is a programmer, not just any programmer, but he does very logic and math intensive statistical programs. It seems very odd that such a person would discard all logic in another area of their life, multiple personality disorder perhaps?

    27. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1
      What strawmen am I "constantly throwing around"? What I believe has a great deal to do not only with my religion, but with available evidence: I'm convinced there is enough evidence to support believing in a young earth. Apparently, you do not believe enough evidence exists to support that conclusion.

      Upon what basis can you say that you do possess the ability to think rationally and logically? I do quite a bit of thinking, discussing, and writing that is rational and logical. I have several examples of my writing available on my personal website, if you care to take a look, and have been published by the Association for Computing Machinery's Ubiquity. You can see two articles I have published on Rice University's Connexions project here and here.

      I would be interested in reading something that you've written and published, that can support an argument or point of view without resorting to name-calling.

    28. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      "What strawmen am I "constantly throwing around"?"

      Try reading my posts, then your replies to them. If its not obvious then it I don't believe it can be explained to you. Everything you've said has been in response to things that I haven't said, but you wish I had said because you can argue it better.

      Things like how I called him stupid, how I am hostile to him, and how I dismissed christianity are all strawmen. I didn't say any of those things, and you chose to refute those ideas instead of what I actually said.

      As for wether or not you are logical and rational, as I said, I don't know. I am entirely willing to believe that you are, but at the same time it would make me believe that you are crazy. Its also irrelivant, I don't care if you are logical or not, or if you are crazy or not. I have no interest in you, or a conversation about you.

      You claim you want to discuss the age of the earth, and yet you have done nothing but try to direct the conversation away from that. You haven't provided any of this supposed evidence to support your belief, and you have failed to provide any evidence of it being in any way part of your religion. Just because the person who invented this theory did it by basing his theory on the bible doesn't mean that the bible says this. My english teacher had a theory that the wind in the willows was a sexist story that degrades women. Her theory was based on what she observed in the book, but that doesn't mean that's actually what the book says, its just someone's theory, based on how they interpret what was actually written.

      The bible does not list every person ever born, when they were born, and how long they lived, so you cannot calculate the age of the earth from the bible. Therefore the bible does not say anything about the age of the earth, and its not part of any religion I am aware of. I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about how old you think the earth is being in the heaven entrace exam. I was told it was all about accepting jesus as your saviour.

    29. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1
      That is true, the "heaven entrace exam" doesn't check exact beliefs on a lot of small issues. However, since the Bible claims to be the inerrant Word of God (which is why believeing in Jesus as your savior works), then the record of the creation of the world, contained in that self-same inerrant work, must be understood to be accurate. If it's not, then neither can the rest of the Bible claim to be.

      With the creation of Adam, God did record for us the beginning of time. With the recorded genealogies

    30. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1
      That is true, the "heaven entrace exam" doesn't check exact beliefs on a lot of small issues. However, since the Bible claims to be the inerrant Word of God (which is why believeing in Jesus as your savior works), then the record of the creation of the world, contained in that self-same inerrant work, must be understood to be accurate. If it's not, then neither can the rest of the Bible claim to be.

      With the creation of Adam, God did record for us the beginning of time. With the recorded genealogies in Matthew and Luke, going all the way back to Adam, a very close approximation of the Earth's age can be garnered. If you're willing to throw out the conclusion that the Earth is young, and that life on the earth is liekwise young, then you're throwing out all of the rest of the conclusions of the Bible.

      Calling Jonathan "insane" is hostile. And, since Jonathan and I belive the same things aboutt he age of the Earth, then you are having a conversation, if not about me, then about what I believe, and therefore one that I feel obligated to respond to.

      You appear to be dancing around and shying away from the valid points I have raised, which makes it difficult to talk to you. I'm sorry that you feel that I'm the one throwing out the 'strawmen', but you haven't done anything to respond to those points, except to say that they're not worth responding to.

    31. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1

      sorry about the chopped post, my browser had some issues just there.

    32. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      I haven't done anything to respond to what points? As I said, you haven't made any points, valid or otherwise. You claimed I am dismissing all your evidence, but you have not provided any.

      And I already made it clear that the bible does not list a history of every person and their ages, and thus cannot possibly provide an age for the earth. If you think this is incorrect, then please feel free to tell me precisely where this magical list is, because its not in any bible I've ever seen. The lists you refer to in Matthew and Luke do not provide the details required to construct a timeline of the history of the earth. They are also contain contradictions.

      Like I said, if you want to discuss this, start providing evidence. Convince me that there is scientific proof that the world is that young. I cannot discuss your belief in the age of the earth if you aren't willing to provide this apparently top secret evidence. And if you aren't going to discuss this, then quit wasting my time with empty replies.

    33. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by VolciMaster · · Score: 1
      There is nothing "apparently top secret" about my evidence. It's all right there in the Biblical account, if you take the time to read it.


      Using the records provided in Genesis 5:3 and following, the timelime to the birth of Noah can be calculated: Adam to Seth's birth, 130 years; Seth to Enosh 105y; Enosh to Kenan, 90y; Kenan to Mahalalel, 70y; Mahalalel to Jared, 65y; Jared to Enoch, 162y; Enoch to Methuselah, 65y; Methuselah to Lamech, 187y; Lamech to Noah, 182y. Going off this data, the age of the earth at this point in history was now 1056 years.

      Continuing on from Noah to Abraham (continuing from the end of Genesis 5): by the time Noah was 500y old, he had his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. From Noah's birth to the Flood, 600y, with the Flood being over 1 year later. Moving to Genesis 11:10, from Shem to Arpachshad, 100y, 2 years after the flood. Arpachshad to Shelah, 35y; Shelah to Eber, 30y; Eber to Peleg, 34; Peleg to Reu, 30y; Reu to Serug, 32y; Serug to Nahor, 30y; Nahor to Terah, 29y; Terah to Abram (later changed by God to Abraham), 70y. At this juncture, we have a continuous genealogy from Adam to Abram extending over 1946 years.

      Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born to him [Gen 21:5]. The age of the earth at Isaac's birth was 2046 years.

      The genealogical records after this are quite complete, showing up in different points in the Old Testament narrative, and being rehearsed by both Matthew and Luke. Matthew starts his gospel account with the genealogy of Jesus with Abraham, and lists the total number of generations between Abraham and Jesus. Matthew 1:17, "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations." The total number of people between Christ and Abraham is 41. Even if you decide to be remarkably generous and say that none of those men had children until they were 100 (which is unreasonable), the total age of the earth at the time of Jesus' birth can't be more that 6146 years. Using a more realistic average time between births of 50 years, the total age of the earth by Jesus' birth was approximately 3996 years.

      Since Christ's birth, which is acknowledged as the balance point of our date system, there have been about 2005 years elapsed. This gives the total age of the earth today at only approximately 6001 years, which is considerably less than 10,000, let alone the 'billions' quoted by naturalistic scientists.

      Presuming, as I and myriad others do, that the creation account in Genesis occurred in 6 real days -- not figurative days, or really, really long days -- then you have Adam being created only 6 days into the life of the earth, and all of my math works.

      If you're unwilling to accept the evidence provided in the Bible of the creation account and the lifespans of those recorded, then sure, believing in a 10,000-year-old earth doesn't make much sense. But when you believe that God recorded for us what He wanted us to know, then there is no other possible conclusion to draw from the available evidence.

    34. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski is out of his mind. by Some+Random+Username · · Score: 1

      None of that is evidence though. You are saying "I believe one particular interpretation of the bible and choose to dismiss and ignore all evidence that suggests it may be incorrect". If that's what you want to do, that's fine, but that's not what I was expecting. Based on the way you compared yourself to Jonathan, I assumed that like him, you were inventing bogus "evidence" to support your belief.

      Lacking any evidence, all I can refute is the obvious flaws in what you are blindly choosing to believe for no apparent reason. Lets start with the obvious, why do you make the odd assumption that Adam was created when the earth was 6 days old? How long was a day exactly before the sun was created? Oh right, days didn't exist, so that would be a pretty bad assumption to make. The bible does not give any reliable indication of how long creation took in human terms.

      Then of course there is the fact that you think the bible is the word of god. But its not. Its the words of men. Even if you believe that God spoke to these people (as I assume you do), the fact remains they wrote it down, and they were human. Humans do not relate tales precisely, they relate their interpretation of what they heard. This is very obviously demonstrated by the numerous contradictions in the bible stories related by different people, and in the way things are described in the terms and understanding of ancient peoples, including things we now know to be simply wrong.

      Don't forget that after the authors interpreted God's message and related it, its been re-interpreted and translated several times over by even more humans, imparting even more unintentional alterations (and in some cases intentional alterations).

      When did God ever say that the bible was a factual, literal history of everything? Its a collection of stories. Some stories are certainly based on real history, but they are related by people, often from other written or even orally related accounts. I'm willing to accept that the other stories which aren't from human recorded history are from people who god spoke to. But how well would these people (who lack alot of information we have now) be able to understand what god is saying? They can only relate the tale as they understood it, which may not actually be as god said it. I am of course assuming that you believe god is smarter and more knowledgable than people.

      Out of curiousity, do you believe the world is spherical, or a flat disc, or something else?

  14. Effecitve filtering will end spam by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The reason spammers do it is that their message reaches people, enough of them to make it worthwhile. So, the more effective and widespread the filters, the less messages that reach people, and the less it's worth. If the filters were really effective, nearly 100%, it would simply not be worth it to spam, you wouldn't make any money because no one would see your message.

    I don't think we'll ever get there, but yes filtering really could end spam.

    1. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by thogard · · Score: 1

      There are an infinite number of people who find an ad and give spamers thousands of dollars to send out their ad to millions of people. The rich spam bastards don't make money selling pills (even though some have admitted to it), they make their money by reselling spaming services to people who think they will work for their product.

      The only real way to stop a spamer is jail or a baseball bat but someone else will always be in line to replace them.

    2. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Very few people make money off MLM scams, yet there is a never ending stream of them. There are those at the top or those providing "services" (bullet-proof servers, bot-net's) that will make money.

      Spam will never end as long as there are enough suckers who believe you CAN make money off spam. And until then, there will be those at the top of the MLM scum-pyramid willing to fleece them of their money.

    3. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by Fareq · · Score: 1

      Your post advocates a

      ( ) technical ( ) legislative ( ) market-based (*) vigilante

      approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

      ( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
      ( ) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
      ( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
      ( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
      ( ) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
      ( ) Users of email will not put up with it
      ( ) Microsoft will not put up with it
      (*) The police will not put up with it
      ( ) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
      ( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
      ( ) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
      ( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
      ( ) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

      Specifically, your plan fails to account for

      (*) Laws expressly prohibiting it
      ( ) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
      ( ) Open relays in foreign countries
      ( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
      ( ) Asshats
      (*) Jurisdictional problems
      ( ) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
      ( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
      ( ) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
      ( ) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
      ( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
      ( ) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
      ( ) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
      ( ) Extreme profitability of spam
      ( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
      ( ) Technically illiterate politicians
      ( ) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
      ( ) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
      ( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
      ( ) Outlook

      and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

      (*) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever been shown practical
      ( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
      ( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
      ( ) Blacklists suck
      ( ) Whitelists suck
      ( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
      ( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
      ( ) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
      ( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
      ( ) Sending email should be free
      ( ) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
      ( ) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
      ( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
      ( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
      ( ) I don't want the government reading my email
      (*) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

      Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

      (*) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
      ( ) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
      ( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your house down!

    4. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by Sanga · · Score: 1

      The folks smart enough to figureout the spam filters would not be clicking on spam messages in the first place. So who is this book addressing? Is this providing a tech solution to a social problem?

      I agree with the original post -- this is not 'stopping spam'.

    5. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by thogard · · Score: 1

      I wasn't advocating a solution, just describing the what I've heard about.

      I know of 3 cases where spamers have stopped (at least for a bit) doing their dirty work where a baseball bat (or similar) were used. The results are one dead Russian who won't be spaming any more (but his friends have taken over his work), A Kiwi that is now back spaming even though there are rumors that his kid has taken at least one beating for his activity, and one Aussie spamer that decided that a few people showing up at his door (with baseball bats) and asking him to stop spaming was good enough reason for him to stop.

      So It looks like baseball bats only work about one in three times. As far as the police, the Russian cops do seem like they will put up with it, I don't think the Aussie cops were even aware of the incident and I have no info on the other case.

    6. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      If we successfully filter out 99% of the spam, wouldn't the spammers just have to send out 100 times more spam to make up the difference?

      If only that were the case... Really, they'd just have to figure out what is special about the 1% that gets through and make all the spam look like that.

      Spam filtering is like DRM. Somebody wants to bypass it badly enough that they will.

    7. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      Ah, but you don't need the police to put up with it.

      You just need the jury to. ;)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    8. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      Hrm, I thought spammers already were sending out 100 times more spam.

      Damn, they've countered our plan before we started!

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    9. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      Spammers don't have a message.

      Spammers are paid to send out a message. They get paid if you see the message or not.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    10. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by jrumney · · Score: 1
      The reason spammers do it is that their message reaches people, enough of them to make it worthwhile.

      I disagree. Spammers aren't advertising their own products, they're advertising the products of suckers who beleive that it is worthwhile to pay the spammers to send their spam into a void. Even if all the spam in the world was filtered with 100% effectiveness, there would still be greed fueled suckers who beleived that a spammer could bring them customers for their phony erection drugs and porn link sites.

    11. Re:Effecitve filtering will end spam by dodobh · · Score: 1

      The response of spammers to better filters has been to send more spam. You might not see it in your inbox, but you _will_ see it in increased usage fees.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
  15. War that cannot be won.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spam will never end as long as there's money to be made. As soon as you find a way to stop one form of it, another is found.

    It's just like the war on terror or the war on drugs (both equally useless). There will always be fanatics, and drugs, regardless.

  16. Re:Is spam a parasitic malady and, if so, what nex by -brazil- · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bad analogy. Spam is not an organism or infection. It is a business model. It does not "survive" in computers, but in a combination of economical, technical and legal conditions. Once those conditions become strongly unfavorable to the business model, there isn't really much that adaption can do. Selling "snake-oil" wonder cures used to be a really big, widespread business model. Better-informed consumers and increased regulation of the market for medicine have all but eradicated this practice. It survives, but in a much-changed and diminished form.

    --

    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
    --Henry Kissinger

  17. And in other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kofi Annan declares the end of wars.

  18. No good publisher by SW6 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It's by "No Starch Press" who seem to churn out books that look good on initial inspection, but don't seem to deliver on content.

    If this was published by O'Reilly, I'd have bought it on sight as they bother to edit their books. As it is, I'll give it a wide berth.

    1. Re:No good publisher by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      Don't know anything about No Starch Press, but I've generally been finding that O'Reilly books need a FAR more critical eye before buying than they used to. I've seen too many lately that need heavy editing, if not a complete rewrite.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    2. Re:No good publisher by jdowland · · Score: 1

      I've generally been finding that O'Reilly books need a FAR more critical eye before buying than they used to.

      Agreed - I wouldn't judge a book by it's cover, or it's publisher. The grandparent's opinion is interesting, not least because I have been thinking recently 'at least, another publisher who looks to be hitting the same niche as O'Reilly'.

  19. Spam filtering is bullshit. by vettemph · · Score: 1

    Spam filtering is crap. It's like having to wear a bullet proof vest because people will be firing at you while you drive to work. Excuse me for thinking it, But no one shoud be taking shots at you for no good reason.
      We need to have an automated way of dog-piling the retail site that the spammer is trying to lure you to.
    Every time a spammer sends an email for viagra our email client should goto the site and fill out the order form 50 times per second... incorrectly.
      There is simply no more time to be pussies about this shit. Spam filtering has been given plenty of time to fix this problem. It's time for something new and aggressive.
    VERY AGGRESSIVE.
    THE TIME IS NOW!

    thank you for your time.

    --
    The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
    1. Re:Spam filtering is bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wrote a script that does that.... and they DID notice it. They tracked me down through my IP address (I wanted them to do that). My provider (a CoLocation facility) send me a copy of the message... they threatoned to sue me, but I wrote back and told them where they should "Stick it", and if they removed me from their spam list, I would stop - but after a while, I was getting so many of spams, I felt there were better ways to screw them,
      and my machines got tied up so much...

      Some were even so dumb to allow "Cross scripting" and if you find a site that allows this - I would hope you would know what to do... as for the legality of this, I'm sure this is a "grey area", but the fact I "attracted their attention" meant what this CAN hurt the spammers.

      I find an aggressive spam reporting system like SpamCop can be very helpful in causing spammers grief... but the BEST WAY is for people not to buy the crap they sell. But (sigh) that is just not possible with so many clueless people on the net these days.

  20. I know it's a cliché movie, but I can't help by Idealius · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Reminds me of the conversation at the end of Batman Begins with Gordon and the Bat:

    Gordon: "Batman making a stand as he has will only escalate the problem."

    If suddenly the masses are educated on spam filtering, wouldn't spammers just adobt tactics to avoid them?

    I mean it is afterall a "spammers market". They have increased resources because they're getting all the money. I'm sure the spammers are much smarter than most techies who use filters, they just don't care. They think, "If this techie is going to use a filter to stop my spam so be it, there's a 100 people for each one of him that won't."

    No we need to think of new techniques outside of filtering. Filtering is mostly nonsense, manual work. We need something philisophically different than filtering which affects how spam comes through in-transit, or something that affects the financial backing of spammers.

    We should be breaking down their lines of communications, etc - not expecting granny to take up spam filtering techniques.

  21. Great, this will help.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been looking for a complete list of current and future technologies to allow me to better get around them and send more spam.

    Thanx!!!

    1. Re:Great, this will help.. by chevyorange · · Score: 1

      Mac users (OS X) have the best thing out there that I've seen thus far short of the ISPs own filtering.

      It is free: http://junkmatcher.sourceforge.net/Home/index.html .

      Even if you aren't intersted or already have filtering this guy's page is very interesting - he even updates definitions often.

      --
      http://homepage.mac.com/chevyorange
  22. This should really be entitled "Hiding Spam" by wernst · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Not to quibble, but even the best filters don't "end" spam.

    Even a manservant reading all of my mail and hand-carying printouts of nothing but personal messages to my Jamacian bungalow doesn't "end" spam.

    It would seem that These Guys are actually making an attempt to "end" spam.

    All this guy is just talking about is hiding it from view. Big deal...

    1. Re:This should really be entitled "Hiding Spam" by bugbear · · Score: 1

      If you hide enough of it, you end it, because if users don't see it, it stops working. And if it stops working, spammers stop sending it.

      Which raises the question: why do we still get spam? There have been good filters for years, but there is still spam. So it must be getting through somewhere. My guess is that it gets through to (a) people who get email service from their local ISP, and (b) users at medium-sized businesses, who are compelled to use wretched "enterprise" spam filters.

      If everyone used Gmail or Yahoo Mail, that really would end spam, because those guys have good filters.

    2. Re:This should really be entitled "Hiding Spam" by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      You're making a fundamental mistake here. Spam doesn't succeed because it drives business at 'x' percent. Nobody pays a spammer per hit or per sale anymore--they pay per # of messages sent, regardless of the return.

      We've moved to a market where the product for sale is being sold through a number of venues, and spam is just one of them. Paying someone an extra $1000 to send out a few million emails is no more than insurance of maximum exposure. It might buy you a few sales or it might not--but it's so cheap that it's pointless to NOT do it, and potentially lose sales. Nobody has the stats to properly do the math on return vs. millions spammed, but it doesn't matter--determining whether or not it's a cost-effective way of advertising is more expensive than continuing to do it.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
  23. If it's a business model, where's the underwear? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bad analogy. Spam is not an organism or infection. It is a business model. It does not "survive" in computers, but in a combination of economical, technical and legal conditions.

    True and False.

    Spam acts like a parasitic organism, due to the favorable conditions for the business model. It does, in some cases, actually "survive" in certain computers, which are spam zombies that spew out spam from a spam source - in fact, there are a few at the other UW (in Wisconsin) which utilize the identified computers there to get thru the filters here (in Seattle).

    Informing consumers is highly unlikely to stop this behaviour - or else AIDS/HIV would have been halted. Some consumers are highly resistant to changing their behaviour, don't think it's important, or it's such a good deal what would it hurt.

    And, like the malarial mosquito, spam uses those responders (infected persons) to download more spam zombie software, since they tend not to be technical enough to remove the infection.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  24. Re:Is spam a parasitic malady and, if so, what nex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So long as the fiscal, legal, and societal penalties for spamming are fairly low and the rewards are high, and while most people do nothing about it, it will spread.

    I agree wholeheartedly... Most technological screening solutions would only be a temporary remedy. In the long-run it will be stricter legislation that will impede spammers efforts.

  25. Fundamentals Don't Change Much/Fast by billstewart · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Sure, some details will change, and spammers and anti-spammers will pick up new tricks and abandon old ones, and the percentages of email that are spam will keep changing (normally up, but I saw one recent article saying it had dropped significantly in the last year.) But most of the fundamentals don't change much, or at least not very fast. Filtering techniques, Bayesian analysis, collaborative filtering, etc. are a solid core of knowledge that will continue to be useful.

    Rule 1 (Spammers always lie) won't change, though occasionally they'll think of new things to lie about. Rule 2 (Spammers are Stupid) won't change, though of course some spammers violate this rule, and some spammers can hire smart people to work for them, and enough of them are sufficiently persistent skr1pt k1dd13z that it sometimes makes up for stupidity.

    The latest and greatest spam-blocking technique will last a while before spammers find a way around it - it's somewhat of a losing game, because if it works well enough to be widely popular, it becomes a target for spammers to work around, though if it's effective and obscure, it'll work for you and your friends for a lot longer.

    PC users will continue to run insecure operating systems without administering them well, so there'll always be zombies for spammers to abuse. Windows automatic updates will gradually help this, but not only will new OS bugs get discovered frequently, but users will insist on running trojan horses that pretend to be new amusing programs, breaking any semblance of security.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Fundamentals Don't Change Much/Fast by TooncesTheCat · · Score: 1

      I have never gotten a spam email on my personal email account. EVER.

      Simple solution if you dont want spam, choose a free email service such as Gmail or Excite or any of the millions. Any time you'r registering for a site / forums / anything. Use that email...

      The other email is your personal email, never put that email anywhere on the net.

      Bam boom

    2. Re:Fundamentals Don't Change Much/Fast by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      No, Rule 1 is "spammers lie". Rule two is "see rule one". Rule three is "spammers are s-t-o-o-p-i-d".

    3. Re:Fundamentals Don't Change Much/Fast by PeeCee · · Score: 2, Informative
      The other email is your personal email, never put that email anywhere on the net.

      Right... except you don't need to. If you ever actually use your account to, well, email people, it means that address is out there somewhere. And it will get out as soon as your aunt sends you your next "FREE" birthday e-card, or some virus/worm takes over her computer and harvests her address book.

      Note that this is not wild speculation, I have followed this same technique, and while it is undoubtedly one of the most effective ones available, I still have gotten a bunch of spam on addresses which were nowhere near "public". As a matter of fact, some messages I have sent only to close friends have ended up on random places around the web, with my address on them, because it got forwarded many many times by people who won't even bother to remove the headers.

      And that's not to mention other possibilities, like your ISP's customer list getting stolen, their boxes getting hacked into, or simple dictionary attacks which can get you without you realizing or even moving a finger.

      - PeeCee

  26. Do something, then by DogDude · · Score: 1

    You're exactly right. I've been running Spam Vampire 24/7 for quite some time now (1-2 years). Works great. Quit bitching and do something about it!

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Do something, then by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Uh OK.. so I have to use up my monthly bandwidth limit jut to piss off someone who's running a zombie, whilst the real spammer doesn't get affected at all.

      No thanks.

    2. Re:Do something, then by DogDude · · Score: 1

      1. Generally, home users in the US don't have metered bandwidth. If you have a limit at home, then you should look into finding a new provider.

      2. It doesn't effect zombies. If you took the time to read, you'd see that this hits the website being advertised, thus hitting the source of the spam in the wallet.

      3. It does more than just piss them off... it runs up their bandwidth bills quite high, actually. They generally quit (at least with that domain) after being hit with spamvampire for a few days. And, of course, it makes spamming much less profitable for them as well.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    3. Re:Do something, then by mousse-man · · Score: 1

      I think we rather need spammer vampire, coming at night and sucking the blood from spammers, therefore transforming them into more spammer vampires...

  27. Absolutely by DogDude · · Score: 1

    So then, anyone in the world who believes in creationism is a twit?

    Absolutely. Do you have another word for somebody who ignores all scientific evidence, and instead believes in some imaginary man who lives in the sky and performs miracles? I think that "psychotic" or "delusional" or "schizophrenic" also work, but "twit" is pretty good, too!

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Absolutely by TheJorge · · Score: 1

      Do you have another word for somebody who ignores all scientific evidence, and instead believes in some imaginary man who lives in the sky and performs miracles?

      Creationism isn't necessarily the belief that science is wrong. Many if not most religous educated people believe both in science and this imaginary man in the sky. When we speak of Creationism as an alternative to Evolution (as it usually comes up on /.) I may be in agreement with your point of view. But in general, Creationism merely implies the existence of a creator. Usually one can follow this line of thought with their logical faculties intact by admitting that faith is not logic-based, but rather a necessarily logicless belief in something without evidence for or against it.

      Belief in God is not contrary to logic, it's just outside it. Belief that the world is 10,000 years old requires a little (lot) more bending of commonly agreed upon scientific knowledge and reasoning.

    2. Re:Absolutely by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      How do you explain this?

      Darwin was a creationist.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
  28. Re:If it's a business model, where's the underwear by -brazil- · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It does, in some cases, actually "survive" in certain computers, which are spam zombies that spew out spam from a spam source

    That's not survival in the "organism" analogy, since a zombie will not send spam without a source, which will be gone when the business model is not workable, and especially not cause new source to appear.

    like the malarial mosquito, spam uses those responders (infected persons) to download more spam zombie software, since they tend not to be technical enough to remove the infection.

    You're mixing up the spreading of "zombie" software that is used to send spam with the spreading of spam itself.

    I totally agree that computer worms/viruses work very much like an infectious disease. But they are merely one tool that spammers use, not identical with the phenomenon of spam as such.

    --

    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
    --Henry Kissinger

  29. Re:If it's a business model, where's the underwear by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I totally agree that computer worms/viruses work very much like an infectious disease. But they are merely one tool that spammers use, not identical with the phenomenon of spam as such.

    Just as a mosquito is merely a tool the malarial parasite uses to spread itself.

    Let's say we knock out something that permits mosquitos to infect human hosts. Chances are that it might only partially impact malarial infections of non-human hosts. The impacted malarial bug, provided it survives and breeds, may then decide to use another vector to complete the infection.

    Same with spam - we can knock out the zombies. We can knock out the spam kingpins. We can make the email transmission more secure - it migrates to cell phones or text messages or video messages. Unless we go for species extinction, it is likely that it won't die, but will instead change.

    Nowadays I rarely see pop-under ads any more - due to using different browsers - but now ads show up that are movies, which really burn up my bandwidth. To kill off those ads, I would have to disable the very useful site portions that i do want.

    So long as the evolutionary niche exists that permits spamsters to make a buck or two from sending spam, so long as people don't turn in most spam, so long as some people buy from spamsters, and so long as most spamsters don't serve long jail sentences and are never caught, it is highly unlikely that spam will cease to exist.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  30. Re:Is spam a parasitic malady and, if so, what nex by jonbryce · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Spam may not be an organism or an infection, but the people who send it are. So I think it is a perfect analogy.

  31. Who will buy the book? by jlow · · Score: 1

    Why does it sound like the only people who will buy the book are the people who are trying to beat the filters?

  32. Re:dude Milky Ways suck by Dunbal · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Obligatory comment:

    I have a peanut allergy you insensitive clod!

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  33. Gotta use it right by jfengel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they're adopting SenderID, it makes it easy to filter them. You can't filter just on the existence of SenderID; you need to check who the sender is and ignore email from known spammers.

    That's a good thing. It lets them spew all of the email they want; let's call it freedom of speech (since I don't want any legal limitations on spam also being used to prevent legitimate speech). And I get to ignore them; I can filter them at the SMTP layer even before they get to send the whole message.

    It may not be successful yet, if people are misusing the technology by trusting the existence of a Sender ID record to mean it's not spam. But don't blame the technology for being misused.

    1. Re:Gotta use it right by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      This sounds much more effective than the current IP based blacklists which block entire address spans just because of one spammer. Yes, some spammers will have multiple authenticated servers set up, but it will be a lot harder for them to switch quickly. Bot nets will also be incapable of sending spam, which is a major source of spam today.

    2. Re:Gotta use it right by jfengel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We'll probably still end up with some IP-based blacklists. You can imagine a spammer who spews out an infinite number of verified IDs. You can't blacklist just the IDs because they're one-shots. Instead, eventually you'll end up saying, "Hey, this server seems perfectly willing to grant IDs to any jackass; let's blacklist the IPs and encourage non-jackasses on that server to get a new one."

      Basically, there will have to be layers of responsibility, and we can encourage the various layers to be responsible for the layers below them. Otherwise, a layer which mixes legitimate and asinine uses will risk having its legitimate users tarred with the same brush. The legitimate users will flee, and the spammers will no longer be able to hide among them.

    3. Re:Gotta use it right by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      No, you filter on the existence of a SenderID headers. Its usera are almost entirely spammers. This problem happened before with various bulk email programs that swore up and down they weren't spam, and it has already happened with various header-haiku and other message-ID systems. The technology of SenderID is, in fact, quite stupid. It relies on a Microsoft patented XML header, meaning that you have to waste your cycles accepting the fraudulent email, then processing it, rather than bouncing it on the basis of a published SPF record, DNS information, or blacklist which allows you to block the message before even receiving it, especially since with SenderID you then have to bounce the message. Guess who gets the bounces? Not the spammer.

    4. Re:Gotta use it right by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, SenderID tags have to be purchased from Microsoft, and can only be parsed by mail software from Microsoft due to the encumbering XML patents it uses. Take a look at the patent issues surrounding the RFC's for SPF, which Microsoft tried to "embrace and extend" into patented and proprietary uselessness. The current result is that the SenderID keys are not purchased by spammers: they're usually stolen by using the SenderID key's machine as a spam zombie, and it serve the admins of Microsoft mail servers right for believing in such a stupid approach.

  34. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski's DSPAM claims are bogus too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zdziarski's claims for the performance of DSPAM are just as fantastic as his creationist claims.

    He presents not one iota of scientific evidence that DSPAM is a good filter. Here's an article that shows that DSPAM kinda sucks compared to the competition.

  35. Claiming "SMTP is Broken" without any better ideas by billstewart · · Score: 1
    I'm tired of hearing people rant that "We have spam because SMTP is Broken, and SOMEBODY ought to fix it", when they don't really have any better ideas. If you've got any sense of history, you'd remember the complexity of X.400 (which has a lot to do with why almost nobody uses it), and they'd remember the newer UUCP versions that had authentication built in (doesn't stop spam either), and relatively closed systems (market forces either killed them or forced them to interface with Internet mail.)

    The fundamental problem is that technology pushed the *costs* of sending mail and creating identifiers (IP addresses, domain names, email addrs, etc.) to near-zero and the cost of finding recipients to near zero, human nature makes it profitable to send gullible people mail if you've got no morals, and the popularity of the internet means that people with no morals can easily get the tools to use it. Willingness to spam is a social problem, and economics have made it possible to become an actual problem. The real cost of sending mail isn't likely to go up (encryption affects it a bit, but CPU time is basically free, or you can attempt to impose artificial prices on email transmission (which will fail, if you get it accepted at all, because they don't match real prices.) You can use technology to increase the cost of discovering recipients, using things like tagged addresses and subdomain-per-user naming that increase the search space, and you can use technology to reduce the amount of mail a given group of senders can send to a given receiver. *Recipients* can impose prices or other throttling mechanisms on senders without disrupting most of the other infrastructure, which can help - I know a number of people who find that simple TMDA/Captcha techniques kill off most of their spam, by increasing the cost of discovering an email address that they'll *read* (the cost is the attention spam of having a real human read the captcha image, plus the need to use a real email address to send from instead of a bogus one) - but even they say that it annoys some people they'd really like to get email from.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  36. Re:Is spam a parasitic malady and, if so, what nex by -brazil- · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, because the anti-spam measures do not aim to kill those people, only to make them stop sending spam. Furthermore, spammers are not a separate species and do not reproduce (as spammers).

    --

    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
    --Henry Kissinger

  37. Free sample chapter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    There's a free sample chapter on the web.

    Read it and ask yourself:
    • Does this guy have an axe to grind?
    • Does this guy know what "heuristic" means?
    • Is the technical content of this chapter worth the paper pulp used to print it?
  38. Re:If it's a business model, where's the underwear by -brazil- · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just as a mosquito is merely a tool the malarial parasite uses to spread itself.

    Except that spam does not use zombies to spread itself, SPAMMERS use zombies to spread spam.

    Your analogy is simply flawed. Spam is NOT an organism. It does NOT "survive" somewhere, adapt and spread from the places where it survived.

    And we certainly DO go for "species extinction", by eliminating the conditions that make spam practicable and profitable. You enumerate some of those conditions yourself in the end.

    --

    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
    --Henry Kissinger

  39. Re:dude Milky Ways suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obligatory dismantling of your post:

    1. Milky Ways do not have peanuts.
    2. "Blah blah blah, you insensitive clod" is old and unoriginal (as is "I, for one, welcome our X overlords" and "1. Blah. 2. ?? 3. Profit!").
    3. Die.

  40. Re:Is spam a parasitic malady and, if so, what nex by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Funny

    No, because the anti-spam measures do not aim to kill those people

    Yet.

  41. Re:dude Milky Ways suck by Dunbal · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Obligatory rebuttal:

          Although Milky Ways do not have peanuts, if you had bothered to read the parent the poster was talking about Snickers, which does!

          We all die. Race ya!

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  42. Spam elimination - 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    While at defcon I found this book called "Spam Cartel" which is very very interesting and revealing.

    I also know an acquaintence who developed a very unique and effective program to "finger" every Spam bot infected PC and with a "secret" program under trial, it shut down more than 550,000 spam sending infected PC's.

    reports from the SPAM CHAT Channels indicate it was very effective in nailing down and eliminating Spam bots.

    The experiment was ongoing for about 4 months last year, and WOW! I had no idea there were that many spam bots...

    Word I've gotten is that a few "Checks and Balances" need to be deployed to prevent abuse... but I can imagine what would happen of more mail servers would deploy such a system.

    J

  43. Re:If it's a business model, where's the underwear by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Except that spam does not use zombies to spread itself, SPAMMERS use zombies to spread spam.

    Your analogy is simply flawed. Spam is NOT an organism. It does NOT "survive" somewhere, adapt and spread from the places where it survived.

    And we certainly DO go for "species extinction", by eliminating the conditions that make spam practicable and profitable. You enumerate some of those conditions yourself in the end.


    If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, and it paddles like a duck, you want me to check to see if it's a robotic assembly of nanobots pretending to be a duck.

    Nah. My point is/was - not that I brought up the biological equivalency of spam to malaria (someone else did, and i said it isn't, but it could be thought of that way) - that even should we find a "cure" for spam, it would come back so long as the underlying model rewarded the spamsters in some way to continue to perpetuate.

    So long as up to half the population won't report spam - in fact, it's more like 99 percent;

    So long as enough people buy from spamsters to make it economically rewarding - which it is;

    So long as the penalty is remote enough or far enough in the future to be ignored - which it is;

    And so long as society encourages the pursuit of wealth above moral/ethical standards - which it does;

    This won't change.

    Sure, you can plug up a hole in the dike. I can - and do - turn in spamsters. But they will migrate and adapt.

    Are they infectious diseases? Sometimes, see the use of zombies.

    Can we truly eradicate them - no, because people will replace the prior spamsters so long as the afore-mentioned conditions perpetuate.

    Want to cut down malaria? First, find easy methods of improving sanitation that allows it to perpetuate. Then find ways to interfere with the malarial infection of humans. If you do it backwards, it's likely that many places will still spread it. Because not everyone is rich like we are.

    Same goes for spam - find ways to make it unrewarding for people to buy from spamsters (e.g. sell Viagra etc cheap, offer open source versions of office cheap - that's what they sell), find ways to make it bad to be a spamster, and then batten down the hatches with new protocols.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  44. Easy Solution to Spam by VonSkippy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Blacklist everyone, then whitelist only those people who you really want to communicate with. I've been doing it for years and get ZERO spam. People argue that they will miss important messages - nope, I never have. Email is not the only form of communication. All my family, friends, business clients know how to use the phone if their emails bounce. I have a web form (and phone number) for new clients (and once verified they are whitelisted), and I don't give a shit about the few messages that might not make it (although after several years of using this method I have no evidence that I've missed even one).

    1. Re:Easy Solution to Spam by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      What an absolutely wonderful idea! I'm amazed that no one has though of this yet. Imagine how much benefit this would provide for companies once they had build a whitelist for all "X" thousand employees.

      Seriously, blacklists work on the personal front, if you have a fairly static list of people you keep in touch with. In the business world, it doesn't fly--even if you put the onus for maintaining the list(s) on the users, rather than admins. Business contacts are far too fluid and losing a non-whitelisted message is FAR too hazardous to succeed.

      Basically, white/blacklists don't scale. Greylists have potential in this regard, though.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    2. Re:Easy Solution to Spam by VonSkippy · · Score: 1

      "Business contacts are far too fluid and losing a non-whitelisted message is FAR too hazardous to succeed."

      Bullshit. That's the big myth - "oh my god, I lost a precious email from some client". It's not the end of the world - it certainly happens often enough that anyone who has used email for a while understands that not all email get thru (for whatever reason). Hence the existence of the phone. If your clients like you, a lost email doesn't matter.

      Not sure about the scaling part either. I've scaled that solution to 400+ users without problems. Once you live a spam free life, you'll see it's worth the very very small risk of losing that 1 in a 1000 important email. If your clients can't follow simple instructions on how to contact you then do you care if you keep them or not (I don't)?

    3. Re:Easy Solution to Spam by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      "If your clients can't follow simple instructions on how to contact you then do you care if you keep them or not"

      "So Bob wants us to pre-submit our email addresses, and continue to do so for each new employee contact. Jeff wants us to email him, and close the deal. Hmmm..."

      Trust me. I've tried it in a corporate setting, and beyond a few dozen employees, blacklisting doesn't work. You can come up with endless reasons it _should_ work ('staff who are too stupid to maintain a whitelist shouldn't have email') but invariably--and I DO mean invariably, it doesn't (many people who don't deserve email access still require it).

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    4. Re:Easy Solution to Spam by ThePromenader · · Score: 1

      The simplest solution I have found to block spam, one applicable to a larger business scale (but unfortunately not e-commerce), is to, upon reception, store the message in a database 'grey' box and send an automatic 'did you send this mail? Please confirm here' answer if it is the first mail the server has recieved from that address. Upon authentification the sender would be white-listed and can send mail normally. I know this model will only work at perhaps a corporate scale - but could it not be adapted ISP side as well?

      E-commerce is a stickler though, as almost every mail is a first. I have yet to think this out completely but the only solution I see for now is forms sent to off-page scripts. But on the other hand, would clicking on a confirmation link in a mail (or answering it if HTML is off) be such a tedious thing for a user?

      I get 'confirmation' mails every time I write to my server's technical team, but not ones I have to click on, these just say "we got your mail, thanks!". They are even almost comforting in a way because I know my mail got through. Would it be so bothersome? This could also be an opportunity for addtional identity, advertising... but I digress...

      No matter the techique used, spam will slow when it becomes hard to 'get to' that one-in-every-six-hundred-thousandsth customer. Also, here's hoping for laws concerning unsolicited solicitation that aren't a pile of mush like the ones 'in effect' today.

      --

      No, no sig. Really.

      ThePromenader
    5. Re:Easy Solution to Spam by dodobh · · Score: 1

      That works. Doesn't help for people who deal with a lot of mailing lists, and have to allow for offlist replies. Oh, and if you expect me to fill up a web form to communicate with you, you are mistaken.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
  45. Next... by happymedium · · Score: 0, Troll

    Next on Slashdot: "Establishing Utopia."

  46. Greylisting solves 95% for me by bad_outlook · · Score: 2, Informative

    Greylisting solves 95% for me - seriously. Try Postgrey for an easy, built-in solution to use with Postfix - it works like crazy.

  47. Should one invest time and money in this book? by wintermute42 · · Score: 1

    Some of the previous posters mentioned the rather eccentric views (in my opinion) of the author of Ending Spam (Jonathan Zdziarski). You can sample some of these yourself by reading the essays Mr. Zdziarski has posted on his web site NuclearElephant.com.

    While someone might have, in practice, unlimited amounts of money, none of us have unlimited amounts of time. So a book is always an investement in both time and, for those with more finite amounts of money, cash. With this in mind, there is the question of whether one should read a book by someone who is rather eccentric in their views. Will this eccentricity and, in my opinion, limited knowledge outside of narrow areas, also mean that the book is equally flawed?

    I'm undecided. My concern is that Mr. Zdziarski's knowledge of Baysian filtering and other topics has the same kind of holes that seem to exist when he applies his intellect to other areas (like evolution of both life and the solar system). While this is a concern, it is not a foregone conclusion. The history of science and, especially, mathematics, is full of giants in their field who were also very eccentric.

    Mr. Zdziarski seems to have what I would classify as a narrowly focused intellect and perhaps within these narrow confines the reader can rely on what he writes. DSPAM, the SPAM filter written my Mr. Zdziarski, seems to be a storng competitor to SpamAssassin. So on this basis, perhaps the book may be a good investment.

    1. Re:Should one invest time and money in this book? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is your basis for saying that DSPAM is a strong competitor? Zdziarski's testimonials?
      They, like his views on cosmology and biology, are backed up by nary a shred of scientific evidence.

  48. An Idea or 2 by catdevnull · · Score: 1

    How about big fines for the companies that adverstise with spammers? ($1/message!) Figure out how to tax their illegal income and file tax evasion charges! (Works on the mob!)

    Or

    Jhunkhad: A Holy War Against the Infidel Spammers!

    In front of a camera, stand them up and make them recite that they have small, flacid penises and need to refinance their homes and consolidate their debt because they owe all their money to hot horny teen girl web cam sites. Then slap them with a herring until they are unconcious.

    ...sounds like a reality show for Fox!

    --

    I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
    1. Re:An Idea or 2 by slappyjack · · Score: 1

      so just exactly how long have you been waiting to work the term "Jhunkhad" into a post?

      When we start hearing it on FOX news and CNN, we now know who to blame.

    2. Re:An Idea or 2 by catdevnull · · Score: 1

      Wow...I could be, like, infamous. It's like famous, but more so.

      --

      I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
  49. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski's DSPAM claims are bogus too by misleb · · Score: 1

    While I don't get the 99% or whatever success rate that DSPAM is claimed to get, I get at least 96%. It is pretty good. Better than I got from SpamAssassin and don't require any manual tweaking of rules. One thing that does make DSPAM suck though is that it requires a msssive database backend. It does not scale well at all.

    -matthew

    --
    "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
  50. Re:Is spam a parasitic malady and, if so, what nex by DavidTC · · Score: 1
    Most anti-spam measures do not kill spammers. This does not mean none of them do.

    Tada

    And spammers reproduce via cellular mitosis, like they're supposed to.

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  51. Web site running on zombies by tepples · · Score: 1

    Generally, home users in the US don't have metered bandwidth. If you have a limit at home, then you should look into finding a new provider.

    Moving to North America costs a lot of money and time (which is money).

    It doesn't effect zombies. If you took the time to read, you'd see that this hits the website being advertised

    Which might have the DNS running on two zombies and the HTTP running on two more zombies.

  52. what by Apotsy · · Score: 1
    What do all those checked items about legislation, politicians, government, "market-based", opt-out, "Sending email should be free", and other nonsense have to do with his post?

    Did you just fill in the list at random?

    1. Re:what by MrAnnoyanceToYou · · Score: 1

      You Personally advocate a
      (x) technical (x) legislative (x) market-based
      You need all three of these to make a system like this work.
      (x) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses - Along with a centralized repository for management comes a centralized directory.

      (x) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected - Current e-mail systems would all have to be scrapped.

      (x) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money - Finding a spammer would be the same as finding a telemarketer, only there would be five hops through anonymous and cleaning servers. Bad things, man.

      (x) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it - Like any computer system, there will be bugs and holes. A centralized authentication system is not a cure-all. Ergo, the holes would be exploited within two weeks and the system comprimised. We would then be stuck with the WORST of all worlds.

      (x) Users of email will not put up with it --
      All my old e-mail systems would have to be rebuilt. Small businesses, everyone suddenly has to comply. Great deal.

      (x) Requires too much cooperation from spammers --you have to assume some guy protected by the mob in Russia doesn't decide he can make millions sending Americans spam despite the fact that the US government won't get their hands on him until after he has cash in pocket.

      (x) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once -- Sudden switch from one format to another anyone?

      (x) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
      Yeah, if you phase it instead, you're running into this problem. --
      (x) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists -- Meh, you're right, this one doesn't apply at all.

      (x) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business -- This morning I heard a radio story about an eleven year old boy being disallowed from boarding a plane due to being a terr'ist. E-mail would be little different.

      Specifically, your plan fails to account for

      (x) Open relays in foreign countries - I think this one's a no-brainer.

      (x) Asshats - Again, No Brainer.

      (x) Jurisdictional problems -Again, No Brainer.

      (x) Unpopularity of weird new taxes -- Suddenly, there would be an e-mail tax if someone had to maintain the list. Something like domain registration.

      (x) Huge existing software investment in SMTP -- No Brainer.

      (x) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack -- Something you forgot.

      (x) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email -- Suddenly, your trusted e-mail name is sending spam off. You call THE FREAKING GOVERNMENT to get access back, and then you wait the two or three weeks it takes to actually fix, as well as paying a massive sum to some guy that doesn't want to deal with your crap anyways, and there's no guarantee you'll not do it again in a month.

      (x) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes -- Would remove themselves from the network quickly, suddenly making massive numbers of people angry.

      (x) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches -- No Brainer.

      (x) Extreme profitability of spam -- No Brainer.

      (x) Technically illiterate politicians -- *shudder* You want Kofi Anan, George Bush or John Kerry in charge of whether you have access to e-mail? This is just plain SCARY.

      (x) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers -- No Brainer.

      (x) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with Microsoft -- No Brainer.

      (x) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with Yahoo -- No Brainer.

      (x) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves -- No Brainer.

      and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

      (x) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever been shown practical --No Brainer.

      (x) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable --No B

  53. Big deal by innit · · Score: 1

    Jonathan Zdziarski has been fighting spam since before the first MIT spam conference in 2003

    Big deal, I've been fighting spam since 1995.

    1. Re:Big deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You win!

  54. OT: What's with these forms? by alfboggis · · Score: 1

    I've seen this "checklist" format in a couple of semi-humourous posts on slashdot recently, and it's made me wonder whether there's a parody going on.

    Is this some US government standard reply that all you guys across the pond are familiar with? (Let this Limey in on the joke...)

    1. Re:OT: What's with these forms? by MrAnnoyanceToYou · · Score: 1

      This is a standard Slashdot reply to the continuous 'I have solved the spam problem' stories people were suggesting. There seems to be only so much flex in solving the problem, and the survey checklist is a result of people going around in circles attempting to fix this problem. I personally think that the 'trusted social networking' stuff is more likely to fix the problem than anything else. But that is an end-user and third-party system, not a centralized system. There is a big difference between the two.

  55. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski's DSPAM claims are bogus too by jdowland · · Score: 1

    Surely that means it does scale well? It might be a pain to have a DB backend for a single user, but for scaling up to 1,000s of users, that's exactly what you want.

  56. Re:I know it's a cliché movie, but I can't he by plover · · Score: 1
    If suddenly the masses are educated on spam filtering, wouldn't spammers just adobt tactics to avoid them?

    But that's exactly what we've been seeing over the years.

    Granny has never filtered a spam in her life. The ISPs have taken up automated spam filtering on her behalf. That's why the spammers can't stand still and let just us techies filter their sludge. The techies took the fight to the next level, blocking spam further up the chain so the benefits of spam-blocking translated to everyone. Thus, we've seen the counterevolution of spam -- when "viagra" got blocked we saw simple 133t-sp33k substitutions for things like "vi4gra"; with the advent of Bayes filtering we now see random text words combined with pictures of the real spam text.

    The spam filterers should have taken a page from the hospitals. Doctors NEVER issue prescriptions for vancomycin outside of a hospital, in hopes that the practices that have led to so many antibiotic-resistant diseases wouldn't allow bugs to evolve to resist vancomycin. They kept the most potent stuff in reserve. Like them, the filterers should never have given Bayes filtering to companies like AOL. If they just quietly ran it on their own boxes, they'd be spam free today.

    --
    John
  57. Re:I know it's a cliché movie, but I can't he by Steve+B · · Score: 1
    If suddenly the masses are educated on spam filtering, wouldn't spammers just adobt tactics to avoid them?

    That's why the solution has to treat the evasion of spam filtering like any other sort of computer cracking (i.e. a federal offense resulting in a few years of PMITA prison).

    --
    /. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
  58. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski's DSPAM claims are bogus too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We use dspam with 85,000 mailboxes, merged groups, and a mysql backend on three xeons, have had no problems. If it's not scaling for you, you're doing something wrong.

  59. statistical filters work well enough for me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For me a simple statistical spam filter works well enough, 50-100 spam go to the junk pile per day, my 10 emails sit in my mailbox.

    The spam burden is really on the network providers and the network and computer resources used. Yes they pass some of the costs on to customers.

    But we get a huge pile of crap mail in the regular mail box too, from basically the same scammers with the same clogging of the communication channel, paper spam disguised as bills or checks,
    the same scams for drugs, mortages, tanning, software, even porn. I do not have a filter for that, too bad.

  60. Re:Jonathan Zdziarski's DSPAM claims are bogus too by misleb · · Score: 1

    No, it doesn't scale well. Have you run DSPAM for 1,000 users? It requires at least one dedicated DB server, maybe even two, with lots of memory and lots of fast disk. It does scale because you can always throw more hardware at it, but it doesn't scale well.

    -matthew

    --
    "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
  61. No spam for 2.5 years.. Use TMDA by Nick+Triantos · · Score: 1
    I've been using TMDA (http://www.tmda.net/) for over 2 years. During that time, I've received only 2 spam emails in my inbox, that were due to setup problems. My email addresses collectively receive about 100-200 spams a day, but TMDA does its job, so I never see them.

    For those who don't know, TMDA is a challenge-response based server-side system. It's open-source, all written in Python. Works with all client mail readers. Check it out