First, no such implication was made. I might have an objection to making any arbitrary product. It has nothing to do with the person looking to buy. I don't generally have a way of knowing which sexual orientation or national origin someone is, or a way to verify even if they told me.
Second, you're implicitly assuming that there's some acceptable reason to force someone to do something (at least without any prior agreement/contract). There is not.
There's no reason to need to know the reason for declining business, unless you're actively looking to be intolerant of other's opinions. I don't generally deny or force someone's business for any reason.
The logical consequence is if you start discriminating against said religion, you lose your legal ability to compel people to serve you against their will.
Which means in the end, no one can force anyone to do anything. Which I'm sort of down for.
No it is not. It is an attempt to enshrine bigoted ideology into law against a group of people who have done them no harm. Just because it is pandering does not mean it will not do real harm.
Google "define:bigot": "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."
If you're intolerant of another person's beliefs, so much that you have to get the law to force them to obey you... doesn't that make you a bigot?
BULLSHIT. Plenty of racist homophobes actually support this nonsense. This is legislation that specifically targets minority groups that by definition do not have the population to fight back directly. "Ohh, 1% of our customer base is angry with us, whatever will we do..."
Hitler supported it, therefore it must be wrong!
Do you seriously think that the owners of Chick-Fil-A or Hobby Lobby wouldn't force their religion on others if given the chance?
No, not really. Every time a customer walks in is a chance to proselytize. And they don't.
Some do: What do you think the Salvation Army is doing around holiday season?
"The Jim Crow laws were racial segregation state and local laws enacted after the Reconstruction period in Southern United States that continued in force until 1965 mandating de jure racial segregation in all public facilities in Southern U.S. states (of the former Confederacy), starting in 1890 with a "separate but equal" status for African Americans. " via Wikipedia
In what world is legally mandating discrimination a "free market"?!?
The bill isn't banning "all products". It's saying you can't be compelled to do something you don't personally agree with.
If I walked into a bakery and legally compelled them to bake a cake depicting a same-sex couple that they don't want to bake... aren't I the one imposing my values?
The provision is unconstitutional, as it violates the right to free association and the court's requirements to uphold contracts, which the courts have found also includes duress. That's assuming any jurisdiction at all, most day to day business is intrastate, not interstate.
If a person walks into a bakery, demands an order, demanding a certain price, that's called... a null and void contract. No court in the US upholds agreements made under duress.
I don't hold it against you though, not very many high schoolers are taught about common law these days. (See, I can be condescending too.)
Even corporations, being owned by multiple individuals, have rights, as this is what allows them to make contracts, and be held accountable to agreements they make. No rights = steamroll over you like a natural disaster, no accountability, no justice.
The Constitution sets limits on the powers of the federal government, as well as its responsibilities and powers.
Many of the state constitutions, like Indiana, further restrict the allowed behavior of the state.
Strictly speaking, states don't issue marriages, they issue marriage licenses, and only has effect for legal or statutory reasons (like taxes, inheritance), as well as anyone who asks for such a marriage license when doing so is lawful. So I'm not sure what point you're getting at.
I'll repeat my question: You're comfortable with compelling a Jewish bakery to cater food for neo-nazis, under threat of fine and/or prison?
You know that the Constitution isn't the only law you have to obey. There's nothing in the Constitution about speed limits, no parking and handicapped parking zones, social security,
If the Constitution hasn't granted Congress the power to pass those respective laws, then they're unconstitutional and will be unenforceable in court. (In practice, the President appoints judges, so over time they usually get their way regardless of what it says.)
The point is, I never signed any contract as a business owner compelling me to serve anyone.
If I sit down at a restaurant and the waiter delivers my order, that's an implicit contract.
If I walk into a supermarket and see a cake "on sale until Tuesday, $19.99 while supplies last", that's an contract.
If I walk into a bakery and ask for a quote for catering, they're under no obligation to serve me (until I accept the quote, that's an explicit contract.) They can turn me down for whatever reason strikes their fancy.
But if you really think businesses should serve "everyone", how do you feel about forcing a Jewish bakery to cater for neo-nazis?
We're talking about a state law here, which presumably represents the general will of the people of the state. If Indiana puts up border signs saying "Welcome to Indiana, Gays may be refused service" it doesn't really matter whether 90%, 1%, or 0% of businesses actually do so - putting it in the law declares it a value of the people of the state.
It's been the law of the land since the beginning, though. Sexual orientation isn't a protected class in Indiana, and the same law already exists in Federal statute, and has been upheld by SCOTUS.
Orthogonal issues: this is not about stocking a particular product, this is about making a product equally available to any person.
A cake depicting a heterosexual couple is a different product than a cake depicting a homosexual couple. In other states, business owners have found themselves in trouble for refusing to sell the latter. Likewise for wedding photography.
I'm aware of no case where people would be turned away because they're known to be a certain sexual orientation. That just doesn't happen (though it could, that is within their right).
Nay, this is a straw man: There's been no reports of businesses refusing service to people by sexual orientation. (How could they tell?)
There have been businesses who have refused to bake cakes depicting such couples, and refused to photograph events with such individuals, who have gotten themselves in trouble with state laws for doing so.
My point is boycotting an entire state for what select businesses within might do is absurd. It applies to any situation.
You may not have noticed, but the Constitution has been amended a few times, so the founders are a bit out of date with many things.
The constitution by definition includes its amendments. If you want to mean otherwise, you say unamended Constitution.
That and a prisoner helps by the state is assuredly not legal property. The way they are treated may not be ideal,but it doesn't claim ownership of anyone.
In the ethical meaning, ownership of another person is, of course, impossible. But if the course of events ends you up in prison, that's pretty much ownership.
The conventioneers can't make money on people that are not welcome in the state hosting the convention. Therefore, it is in conventioneers interest to host conventions in states welcoming to everyone.
No, here lies the misunderstanding. The state is perfectly accepting of all people: It's mandated by the state and Federal Constitution.
If we're going to start boycotting entire geographical areas because select businesses within their boundaries - fractions of a single percent - might refuse service, then... I don't even. Should I start walking into clothing stores demanding they stock clothes to fit my unusual size? Should I walk into coffee shops, demanding they accommodate my taste for foreign music and tea? And when they don't, call for a boycott of all business in the entire state? It's absurd.
You're free not to operate a store or restaurant if you don't want to serve everyone.
Says who? Which provision of the Constitution grants this authority?
Who determines which classes are protected? It's completely arbitrary.
If a person is denied service, what's their injury? The common law system (not to mention the US Constitution) requires an injured party to bring up a civil lawsuit. If they were extended a written offer to purchase a product, that might be an injury. But if not?
E.g. You want to force a photographer to to work an event they don't want to be at? And then I'm guessing the government will have to investigate if they did a 'good enough' job photographing the event they didn't want to be at.
Or prosecutors have to introspect the inner machinations of the professional to make sure their rationale for accepting a different event was 'good enough' for them to legally decline the one they didn't want to be at. It's absurd, but this stuff has actually happened.
No. Slavery is NOT defined as whether or not you will end up in prison.
Let's ask Google: a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them."
If there was ever a modern day, legalized slavery, forcing someone to bake a cake for you sounds otherwise be imprisoned by the government sounds awfully darn like just like that.
Simply put, if you are selling a service, you pay different taxes than in you are purchasing groceries for your personal consumption.
Do you file a 1040? That's sole proprietor income. You're probably working for an employer, no different than the kid next door if I hired them to do my lawn, no different than if I sold baked goods from my own house. Still a sole proprietorship, it's all taxed the same.
Once you get out of high school (and maybe leave high school libertarianism behind) you will learn the difference. Maybe.
Are you trying to start a UID pissing match? And you call me a high schooler? (Well, maybe if I registered when I was in kindergarten... I wish...).
(But if you insist, mine's prime.)
In any event, I practice the Constitution as written by the Framers. Blatant attempts to ignore it is not my fault, but nice try on the victim blaming.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 placed restrictions and additional requirements on the behavior of government, who is already bound by the Constitution to provide "equal protection of the laws".
Discrimination is bad, but it's nothing compared to slavery.
You are not a slave when your pizza boss tells you to take the trash out. You can refuse and be fired.
If I say no to my boss, I get fired. That's not slavery.
If saying "no" pits me against the government, I get fined or jailed, and anyone who resists is thrown in prison. That is slavery.
Only those individuals who are operating a business and only in the operation of that business.
Any purchase or sale of goods or labor by an individual is a sole proprietorship. Purchasing food from my grocery store, hiring lawn care, and selling baked goods are all the same kind of business conduct.
If you know before you walk in that they're going to ask on the way out, then you don't really have an excuse.
It's the same deal in Western societies where you pay for your meal after you eat it: It's just understood that's how it works, and you can be legally liable if you don't.
If you do not have the right to say "yes" or "no" that is not freedom, that is slavery. It is the threat of someone going to a court, ordering me to serve them, under threat of police action. That is wrong, we abolished that over a century ago.
The legal right to do something does not condone exercise of said right.
Not to mention your assertion is very dangerous; a sole proprietorship is a type of business. If a "business" can be required to serve a person, any individual can be required to serve a person.
Now, if I have a written offer of service, say, a price at a supermarket, you can't rescind that offer any faster than you can take the price down. But you can't walk into a bakery and say "I want you to quote me a price on a cake! And it needs to be a similar price to $member_of_some_other_group! And..." etc.
It's the status quo because of existing contract law. If that's violated, that's what the court system is for. Using the executive branch for judicial matters is blatantly unconstitutional.
If the courts fail, then you go to the legislative branch, and pass a law.
This is Civics 101 checks and balances. And you're allowing it to be steamrolled over just because you like the ends.
If the FCC can do this, what can't they do? Broadcast Flag? Censorship of cable TV, phone lines? Those have been struck down for the same reason Title II is going to get struck down. You can't have it both ways.
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First, no such implication was made. I might have an objection to making any arbitrary product. It has nothing to do with the person looking to buy. I don't generally have a way of knowing which sexual orientation or national origin someone is, or a way to verify even if they told me.
Second, you're implicitly assuming that there's some acceptable reason to force someone to do something (at least without any prior agreement/contract). There is not.
There's no reason to need to know the reason for declining business, unless you're actively looking to be intolerant of other's opinions. I don't generally deny or force someone's business for any reason.
The logical consequence is if you start discriminating against said religion, you lose your legal ability to compel people to serve you against their will.
Which means in the end, no one can force anyone to do anything. Which I'm sort of down for.
No it is not. It is an attempt to enshrine bigoted ideology into law against a group of people who have done them no harm. Just because it is pandering does not mean it will not do real harm.
Google "define:bigot": "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."
If you're intolerant of another person's beliefs, so much that you have to get the law to force them to obey you... doesn't that make you a bigot?
BULLSHIT. Plenty of racist homophobes actually support this nonsense. This is legislation that specifically targets minority groups that by definition do not have the population to fight back directly. "Ohh, 1% of our customer base is angry with us, whatever will we do..."
Hitler supported it, therefore it must be wrong!
Do you seriously think that the owners of Chick-Fil-A or Hobby Lobby wouldn't force their religion on others if given the chance?
No, not really. Every time a customer walks in is a chance to proselytize. And they don't.
Some do: What do you think the Salvation Army is doing around holiday season?
"The Jim Crow laws were racial segregation state and local laws enacted after the Reconstruction period in Southern United States that continued in force until 1965 mandating de jure racial segregation in all public facilities in Southern U.S. states (of the former Confederacy), starting in 1890 with a "separate but equal" status for African Americans. " via Wikipedia
In what world is legally mandating discrimination a "free market"?!?
The bill isn't banning "all products". It's saying you can't be compelled to do something you don't personally agree with.
If I walked into a bakery and legally compelled them to bake a cake depicting a same-sex couple that they don't want to bake... aren't I the one imposing my values?
The provision is unconstitutional, as it violates the right to free association and the court's requirements to uphold contracts, which the courts have found also includes duress. That's assuming any jurisdiction at all, most day to day business is intrastate, not interstate.
If a person walks into a bakery, demands an order, demanding a certain price, that's called... a null and void contract. No court in the US upholds agreements made under duress.
I don't hold it against you though, not very many high schoolers are taught about common law these days. (See, I can be condescending too.)
How many sex trafficking victims, pretty much also slaves, were ever offered for sale?
Oh that's right, you have no clue what you're talking about.
Two words: "Sole proprietorship"
Even corporations, being owned by multiple individuals, have rights, as this is what allows them to make contracts, and be held accountable to agreements they make. No rights = steamroll over you like a natural disaster, no accountability, no justice.
Next myth?
Twitch.tv was rebranded from Justin.tv, which started in 2007.
Now they're owned by Amazon.
By contrast, Amazon Web Services was started in 2006.
Hardly a start up.
The Constitution sets limits on the powers of the federal government, as well as its responsibilities and powers.
Many of the state constitutions, like Indiana, further restrict the allowed behavior of the state.
Strictly speaking, states don't issue marriages, they issue marriage licenses, and only has effect for legal or statutory reasons (like taxes, inheritance), as well as anyone who asks for such a marriage license when doing so is lawful. So I'm not sure what point you're getting at.
I'll repeat my question: You're comfortable with compelling a Jewish bakery to cater food for neo-nazis, under threat of fine and/or prison?
You know that the Constitution isn't the only law you have to obey. There's nothing in the Constitution about speed limits, no parking and handicapped parking zones, social security,
If the Constitution hasn't granted Congress the power to pass those respective laws, then they're unconstitutional and will be unenforceable in court. (In practice, the President appoints judges, so over time they usually get their way regardless of what it says.)
The point is, I never signed any contract as a business owner compelling me to serve anyone.
If I sit down at a restaurant and the waiter delivers my order, that's an implicit contract.
If I walk into a supermarket and see a cake "on sale until Tuesday, $19.99 while supplies last", that's an contract.
If I walk into a bakery and ask for a quote for catering, they're under no obligation to serve me (until I accept the quote, that's an explicit contract.) They can turn me down for whatever reason strikes their fancy.
But if you really think businesses should serve "everyone", how do you feel about forcing a Jewish bakery to cater for neo-nazis?
And I don't quite understand how education can be a right if you're not actually entitled to an education.
Forcing someone to give you something is a much different beast than not stopping someone from getting something.
I can't force another person to educate me.
Nor can they stop me from seeking out education.
Got it?
We're talking about a state law here, which presumably represents the general will of the people of the state. If Indiana puts up border signs saying "Welcome to Indiana, Gays may be refused service" it doesn't really matter whether 90%, 1%, or 0% of businesses actually do so - putting it in the law declares it a value of the people of the state.
It's been the law of the land since the beginning, though. Sexual orientation isn't a protected class in Indiana, and the same law already exists in Federal statute, and has been upheld by SCOTUS.
Orthogonal issues: this is not about stocking a particular product, this is about making a product equally available to any person.
A cake depicting a heterosexual couple is a different product than a cake depicting a homosexual couple. In other states, business owners have found themselves in trouble for refusing to sell the latter. Likewise for wedding photography.
I'm aware of no case where people would be turned away because they're known to be a certain sexual orientation. That just doesn't happen (though it could, that is within their right).
Nay, this is a straw man: There's been no reports of businesses refusing service to people by sexual orientation. (How could they tell?)
There have been businesses who have refused to bake cakes depicting such couples, and refused to photograph events with such individuals, who have gotten themselves in trouble with state laws for doing so.
My point is boycotting an entire state for what select businesses within might do is absurd. It applies to any situation.
You may not have noticed, but the Constitution has been amended a few times, so the founders are a bit out of date with many things.
The constitution by definition includes its amendments. If you want to mean otherwise, you say unamended Constitution.
That and a prisoner helps by the state is assuredly not legal property. The way they are treated may not be ideal,but it doesn't claim ownership of anyone.
In the ethical meaning, ownership of another person is, of course, impossible. But if the course of events ends you up in prison, that's pretty much ownership.
The conventioneers can't make money on people that are not welcome in the state hosting the convention. Therefore, it is in conventioneers interest to host conventions in states welcoming to everyone.
No, here lies the misunderstanding. The state is perfectly accepting of all people: It's mandated by the state and Federal Constitution.
If we're going to start boycotting entire geographical areas because select businesses within their boundaries - fractions of a single percent - might refuse service, then... I don't even. Should I start walking into clothing stores demanding they stock clothes to fit my unusual size? Should I walk into coffee shops, demanding they accommodate my taste for foreign music and tea? And when they don't, call for a boycott of all business in the entire state? It's absurd.
You're free not to operate a store or restaurant if you don't want to serve everyone.
Says who? Which provision of the Constitution grants this authority?
Who determines which classes are protected? It's completely arbitrary.
If a person is denied service, what's their injury? The common law system (not to mention the US Constitution) requires an injured party to bring up a civil lawsuit. If they were extended a written offer to purchase a product, that might be an injury. But if not?
E.g. You want to force a photographer to to work an event they don't want to be at? And then I'm guessing the government will have to investigate if they did a 'good enough' job photographing the event they didn't want to be at.
Or prosecutors have to introspect the inner machinations of the professional to make sure their rationale for accepting a different event was 'good enough' for them to legally decline the one they didn't want to be at. It's absurd, but this stuff has actually happened.
No. Slavery is NOT defined as whether or not you will end up in prison.
Let's ask Google: a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them."
If there was ever a modern day, legalized slavery, forcing someone to bake a cake for you sounds otherwise be imprisoned by the government sounds awfully darn like just like that.
Simply put, if you are selling a service, you pay different taxes than in you are purchasing groceries for your personal consumption.
Do you file a 1040? That's sole proprietor income. You're probably working for an employer, no different than the kid next door if I hired them to do my lawn, no different than if I sold baked goods from my own house. Still a sole proprietorship, it's all taxed the same.
Once you get out of high school (and maybe leave high school libertarianism behind) you will learn the difference. Maybe.
Are you trying to start a UID pissing match? And you call me a high schooler? (Well, maybe if I registered when I was in kindergarten... I wish...).
(But if you insist, mine's prime.)
In any event, I practice the Constitution as written by the Framers. Blatant attempts to ignore it is not my fault, but nice try on the victim blaming.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 placed restrictions and additional requirements on the behavior of government, who is already bound by the Constitution to provide "equal protection of the laws".
Discrimination is bad, but it's nothing compared to slavery.
You are not a slave when your pizza boss tells you to take the trash out. You can refuse and be fired.
If I say no to my boss, I get fired. That's not slavery.
If saying "no" pits me against the government, I get fined or jailed, and anyone who resists is thrown in prison. That is slavery.
Only those individuals who are operating a business and only in the operation of that business.
Any purchase or sale of goods or labor by an individual is a sole proprietorship. Purchasing food from my grocery store, hiring lawn care, and selling baked goods are all the same kind of business conduct.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
You might be able to make that argument... once.
If you know before you walk in that they're going to ask on the way out, then you don't really have an excuse.
It's the same deal in Western societies where you pay for your meal after you eat it: It's just understood that's how it works, and you can be legally liable if you don't.
The convention organizers aren't trying to punish those who are being homophobic or racist, though.
Even worse: Why would they walk away from very people who they say would be harmed by the law?
Unless, of course, they're just grandstanding.
If you do not have the right to say "yes" or "no" that is not freedom, that is slavery. It is the threat of someone going to a court, ordering me to serve them, under threat of police action. That is wrong, we abolished that over a century ago.
The legal right to do something does not condone exercise of said right.
Not to mention your assertion is very dangerous; a sole proprietorship is a type of business. If a "business" can be required to serve a person, any individual can be required to serve a person.
Now, if I have a written offer of service, say, a price at a supermarket, you can't rescind that offer any faster than you can take the price down. But you can't walk into a bakery and say "I want you to quote me a price on a cake! And it needs to be a similar price to $member_of_some_other_group! And..." etc.
I don't think anyone is saying we need to start banning people who want to get educated, of course education is a right.
But it's not an entitlement either.
Just don't lie about your offering, that's fraud. Fraud is not a right.
It's the status quo because of existing contract law. If that's violated, that's what the court system is for. Using the executive branch for judicial matters is blatantly unconstitutional.
If the courts fail, then you go to the legislative branch, and pass a law.
This is Civics 101 checks and balances. And you're allowing it to be steamrolled over just because you like the ends.
If the FCC can do this, what can't they do? Broadcast Flag? Censorship of cable TV, phone lines? Those have been struck down for the same reason Title II is going to get struck down. You can't have it both ways.