Ummmm...I think s/he was being sarcastic...
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...so maybe you should go back to UW and re-take the Rhetoric 101 class you flunked...and read some Swift and Pepys (not to mention Shakespeare) while you're at it.
Go back to Redmond, clueless AC...
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obviously you do not use the Gimp and have never installed it on Linux. You already OWN the Gimp (as well as Linux) and must affirmatively consent to this fact before you are allowed to use it the first time.
Big difference from being a publicly traded company whose only capital is intellectual charging $149.00 or more ($100.00 if 'pre-installed') and then another, separate public company charging $200.00 for the software AND NEITHER ONE ACKNOWLEDGING YOUR RIGHT OF FAIR USE OR OWNERSHIP.
Read the GPL and then quiver in fear when you and your ilk in Redmond understand its TRUE ramifications.
So how long have YOU been using computers up there in Redmond, eh? Or did you forget that the Enemy of Innovation didn't 'tie' the browser to the OS until WIN 98?
How did you use a modem before P-N-P? How did you get to the internet? Microsoft didn't invent this technology, it simply used its monopoly power to co-opt it. THAT is what the judge said this afternoon.
Read the homework before you post next time, hmmmm? Nothing in the Findings of Fact OR today's Findings of Law preclude Microsoft from innovating. They just can't use 'innovate' as a code word for stifling competition.
BTW, I see it as a Very Good Thing that Microsoft desist from its '...practice of revising its office suite every few years to make current versions incompatible,' as I believe that this alone would save TREMENDOUS wasted time in resubmissions of e-mails and files in business.
Re: The "Bug" already exists...
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...the agency that does it, for public companies is called the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).
Public companies are required to file mountains of paperwork to keep the investing public informed. This results in very few "closed doors" in a public company, as any misstatement or omission of facts leaves the company and its officers open to tremendous civil and criminal liability.
In fact, the only reason 19 sovreign states are involved, is partly because of just such civil lawsuits filed in their courts against the Enemy of Innovation. They have 'tied' those cases and others (state anti-trust and consumer class-action lawsuits) together as a condition of their participation in the current DOJ case.
It is also interesting to note that another tech company (Seagate/Veritas) that sought to go private again to preclude the 'open sourcing' of their business affairs via the SEC rules is getting clobbered in the Market currently.
...my point still stands. The original post was on the (presumed by the poster) irresponsibility of scientists ("...play with your atoms...") and the fact the leadership were not smart enough to do it themselves.
Actually, the Soviets' presence in Europe had less to do with the fate of the Nazis and more with the British. The opening of a Second Front gave the Western Powers time to win the Battle of the Atlantic and stage the D-Day invasion. It is my opinion the bombs were dropped after the fall of the Reichstag (and after our lesson in Okinawa) as much to get the Soviets' attention and stop their advance in Asia (as well as Europe) before we were continued in the war against the only remaining undefeated Axis power.
As to heavy water, it had nothing to do with fusion bombs, it was simply a way of better refining and accumulating fissionable material. Also, we had no idea of possible sizes of fission bombs, or their delivery (remember 'Atomic Annie' and 'David'?). We only knew _we_ couldn't make them any smaller.
Unfortunately the citations available are at work on my laptop. More tomorrow.
As to the 'Money Machine,' I believe their quasi-science is what gets us into impossible discussions/rants like the earlier 'Joy Manifesto' thread. I don't want screening for purity...just accuracy and faithfulness to the author (if based on a book) or at least to the audience as somewhat intelligent adults.
Hollywood crap again. The 'Australia' defense was one concoted by the 'young man's ' lawyers at his trial. The real reason those two bozoids did the deed was completely for the cash, in order to buy cocaine to deal to their high school and college buddies.
"...Proud to be the laughingstock of every thinking person in the world..."
}}Nope, proud to sign my name and leave an email address, unlike you, you _COWARD_! As to the boy remark, email me and we'll arrange to work that out in meat space.{{
Everything else you sent was out of context, as usual with you cowardly US bashers.
I did not post as 'flame-bait' and can back up _everything_ I have asserted above. I think this would require a bunch of different threads to which I would _love_ to contribute facts, but it is after midnite here and I have to be up early for work. If the thread is still open tomorrow morning, I will respond with the beginnings of links and reasoning.
In the meantime, to begin, see my response below to the Russian gentleman who asked for a source for my assertion that the KGB commited acts of economic espionage against the entire West, but especially the US (I give the ISBN for the Mitrokhin files, in which it is documented that the _only_ way the Russians were able to prop up their bankrupt system was through economic espionage. Otherwise the 70 Years War would have ended immediately after the Cuban Missle Crisis.).
I agree that Echelon and economic espionage is distasteful. That does not make it unnecessary. As pointed out in a previous post, the US, these days, is nothing _but_ an economy. My tastes run towards Freeman Dyson's 'village.' I hope it comes soon. In the meantime, we must live in reality.
You might also consider the source of the report. Former-DCI Woolsey has his reasons for smearing his former agency and his government.
Thank you for your clarification of the roles/functions of MI5 and MI6. I can never keep them straight, but, then, that's the point, isn't it?
If the post is closed before I can reply, please feel free to Email me. I _never_ send unsolicited emails directly from a Slashdot posting thread, but given time, I always reply to my Email...perhaps I should contemplate resurrecting my INTELL page, and trying to get Hemos to post it. Maybe we can meet on USENET?
1. HUMINT. Thread focusses on trade craft and the tools of the trade. START. The Watergate Plumbers-type tech and how far it has come (I think your 'local bug' idea would go here.
2. SIGINT. Thread focusses on tech and countermeasures. START. ???countermeasures? methods? maybe a discussion of FreeNet/Free SWAN or the advantages/disdvantages of symmetric vs. asymmetric key systems. Or maybe one-time pad encryption or key distribution systems. TEMPEST/VanEyck?
3. ELINT. Thread focusses on tech. START. ???countermeasures. differences/values between ELINT and SIGINT.
4. MSINT. Thread focusses on this _very_ new technology. START. Maybe a definition of Multi-spectral intelligence and a discussion/thread of state of the art. Or maybe the application of quantum methods. ???countermeasures??? (THAT would be interesting, nerds discussing the theoretical uses and defenses against using quantum effects to gather intelligence!)
1. You don't get in to the SCI/Close-held cells because they are by nature 'NOFORN,' meaning 'no foreign nationals'. Unless the cell is 'countermarked' allowing access to Canadian nationals (normally military or GCHQ/CSIS) you don't even know the cell exists. If you have no access to the cell you don't see its methods/information/technology. Thus, you can't know what you are talking about.
2. The whole _purpose_ of a program 'like' Echelon (if Echelon exists), in my mind, would be for everyone to plead 'plausible deniability.' The CSIS, spies on the US and the CIA/NSA spies on Canada, then we swap info. Nobody violates any laws in their respective countries as to domestic collection. They rely on their 'cousins' for that. That's not what I was talking about in my previous post. I was not talking necessarily about the CSIS alone. I was also including the Canadian counterpart to the Commerce Department, who, like the US cousins (as well as the State Department) has an intelligence arm. Also, CSIS corporate types would probably be in a separate cell structure/department from yours, so you wouldn't even know they were there. This last would be especially true if you were involved with the NSA, as you allege, since you are now 'suspect.' and possibly compromised or conflicted in your loyalties.
3. I _know_ what can be known. Believe me. I too have stories of things that go "PFFFFT,' in the night. The only defense is to live a life free of secrets and to _always_ be on your guard and prepared to defend yourself by any means necessary. I don't want to live in a cave. And I make a quite nice living with computers. As long as I stay away from the security aspects of the technology, I am left alone. I believe that a gentleman in New Orleans, Louisiana put it best when he said "Three can keep a secret, if two are dead."
Finally, I would not call you a liar, except to your face. But your post is one of the 'insoluble problems' with AC's. If you are for real, then you you would not post except by AC, because of your paranoia. However, there is no way to tell if you are lying, as an AC, especially given the tone of your post and your obvious lack of a grasp of reality: ie: Canadian security personnel in the US and aimed at the US will look out for Canada first. To believe anything else is paranoid conspiracist claptrap.
"I find these remarks regarding this matter extremely offending." }}Tough. And the word is 'offensive.' I found your post (the initial one) to be offensive, as well as misinformed and naive. The article was making the point about Europe, not Japan. You opened that can of worms.
As to your 5 engineer friends, did they enjoy their stay in Krasnoyarsk? As to who replaced Toshiba, who cares...it just proves the ruthlessness of the Japanese, even towards their own countrymen. I do know that _no_ Japanese national or employee of a Japanese company has (or ever will) receive the same co-operation from the US Defense establishment that they enjoyed prior to this incident.
Finally, just as you were misinformed about the airliners (which were done by _French_ spooks on _French_ planes) you are misinformed about the details of the Toshiba case.
In the late 1960's American firms were targeted by the Japanese State Intelligence service on behalf of MITI, the Ministry of Technology. One of the vertical markets (I believe there were 10) that were targeted was the machine tool industry. Those companies who were not open or greedy enough to have their patents stolen or bought out from under them, were bought outright when the Yen rose in prominence against the US dollar during the recession of the late '70s. Toshiba was one of a number of 'zaibatsu' that benefitted from this program. The result was the absolute _ruin_ of small, progressive American machine tool companies, one of the only sectors of the American economy where quality and W. Edwards Deming's work was respected and successful. This was probably when the company you work for was bought by your Japanese parent.
In the early 80s, it was discovered that many of the machine tool technologies that had been accquired, and, more importantly, many of the vital industrial secrets that were shared with Japanese firms in the name of the national security of both Japan and the US were finding their way into the hands of the Soviet Union. The case came to light when the Americans broke up a KGB "Technical Collection Cell' in the Kobe Prefecture (either Yokosuka or Yokohama) involving a group of Russian, East German and Korean, and Japanese nationals. So much for 'honest, open and integrity.' As a result, the Toshiba case came to light as a joint KGB/MITI operation. When the full details of Toshiba's duplicity were made public, I remember being on a submarine base and employees of the NEX and some sailors were in the parking lot smashing Toshiba televisions and stereos. Saw the same thing at the exchanges in Subic Bay and Yokosuka. Toshiba was lucky it was allowed to continue in business, given that the _entire_ weight of Japan's external defense fell on (and still falls on) the US. The damage to both Japanese and US anational security was so severe, there were very real concerns for the continuance of the relationship.
Now, on to your original post: Being as how you work for a Japanese company, your company has little to fear on a JAL (Japanese government owned) airliner. An Intel or Red Hat or TransMeta executive, however, has much to fear, dating all the way back to before WWII.
Japanese state intelligence agencies have _always_ targeted US corps. Been far more successful at it than we have against them. That was my response to your original post.
Don't try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. And don't comment on something you are obviously so ignorant about, without doing all yoour homework. Waikarimas?
"No American corporation has ever sold vital technologies to dangerous governments? }}Didn't say that. Said French, German, etc. did, and that, when _their_ economies/safety were threatened (Cold War, Gulf War, Anti-terrorist war) we put our _most precious treasure_ (young American lives) in harms' way for them...read some _real_ history for a change!{{
"The American government has never given weapons to dangerous people?" }}When it suited our purposes, yes...but, then I was replying to someone who was bashing the US as evil. Don't you want _your_ country to continue to exist? How are _your_ rights protected? By whose blood? Blood is the only price Freedom honors, unfortunately. Ask Gandhi.{{
That America did not speak out against him for his genocide until later when it served a strategic purpose }}Hussein was a foil the _entire_ West used to counter the threat Iran posed to Saudi Arabia. We have paid a price for what we did to Iraq with higher oil prices, the early nineties economic collapses/recessions and 249 dead young American soldiers. If Hussein gasses his own people, that's the Iraqi's business, in accordance to UN directive.{{
motivate Americans to support an unjust war }}Don't get me started......short answer: go ask a Kuwaiti survivor of the Iraqi atrocities how 'unjust' the war was...for that matter, go ask a Kurd.{{
Bottom line, I was responding to an attack on _my_ country by an obviously misinformed and incompletely prepared individual...as you are misinformed and unprepared.
Go do your homework, kid. Its time for the grownups to talk. If you want us to take you seriously here, sign your posts. Otherwise you really _are_ a coward. Oh! Can't sign? Afraid your government will track you or your relatives down? Don't you wish you lived here where we are _FREE_ to sign our names and proud?
French state intelligence bugged the headrests of Air France airliners (and sunk the Rainbow Warrior, the flagship of GreenPeace in the South Pacific, killing two anti-nuclear activists). The UK and Germany, as well as Canada, Australia, Japan, South Africa, and India have all had members of their foreign intelligence services 'invited to leave' the United States after their efforts to suborn US high tech workers and government bureaucrats have been compromised by the FBI, and CIA counter-intelligence.
We are only returning the favors done to us by our erstwhile 'allies!'
Full title: The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB
Available from FatBrain at: http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp ?theisbn=0465003109
From the FatBrain(TM) summary:
"-KGB's attempts to steal technological secrets from major U.S. aerospace and technology corporations. Their success seems to have inspired Chinese intelligence to do likewise."
The book is really very interesting, as Mitrokhin was an MI6-UK coup and not a US double. He was a commited Communist apparatchik who, by contact with the KGB archives (he was the chief archivist during the move from the Dzerzhinsky complex to the new SRV site outside Moscow,) became disillusioned and began to copy and smuggle out the entirety of the KGB historical archives. He stowed them in his dacha and took a train to the West and on to London, where they debriefed him for three years before they went public. The intelligence agencies in the UK _still_ haven't turned over _all_ the files to their 'cousins' in America, Canada, India, Ireland, Germany, France and Isreal, citing 'national security reasons.'
Among the most damaging revelations was that the Secretaries of the Treasury and State under Roosevelt, right before he died, were KGB/GRU 'sleepers' compromised in the '30's.
A _really_ amazing book.
Final, from the FatBrain(TM) summary:
"The Sword and the Shield is a work of great historical significance, which will fundamentally alter our understanding of Soviet history and modern international relations. For Russia's post-Soviet intelligence service, SVR, the publication of this book poses a real problem. No one who spied for Russia between 1917 and the final years of the Cold War can be sure anymore that his or her secrets are secure."
According to the original Echelon docs, the Canadians and Canadian businesses are benefitting as much if not more! Go to the Aussie site or the UCS site for more info.
My bad! See http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/d eutch000209.html) and my _sincere_ apologies to former-Dirctor Woolsey. He wasn't the guy who compromised the CIA, he almost brought it down because it 'bored' him and he wanted DoD instead. See http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1995/950 109/950109.intelligence.html for more.
Ignored Aldrich Ames and was an authoritarian bureaucrat...consider the source.
Some of our old friends and allies: ie: France (the airliners) and the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Belgium and Switzerland (the briefcase).
Lest we forget, it was a Japanese company (a maker of machine tools) that sold the Russians milling and lathing tools to enable them to work titanium and quiet their subs. This enabled the Russians to get _much closer_ (try closer than 12 miles) with their missle subs, and put the US, Europe and_JAPAN_ at greater risk from _very_ inaccurate (at distance) sub-launched ICBMs.
It was Germany and France that sold Khaddafy and Hussein the industrial ingredients for bio and nuclear weapons of mass destruction.
Isreal, France, the UK, and the masters of this, the Russians, have all admitted the same.
The French Surete and the DGE were caught bugging the business class of Air France airliners. MI5 and MI6 were caught in France, Germany and the US doing the same. Jonathon Pollard was doing it for Isreal, and then the Mossad was caught actively recruiting 'agents-in-place' in American high tech firms. The Russians admitted that the only thing that kept them on par with the Americans (and kept them from being militarily, the Third World country they were in reality) during the Cold War was economic espionage (second on their 'To-Do' list only to suppressing dissidents -internal and external- Read 'The KGB Papers' for more.) Let's not mention China and India (India was caught planting 'Trojan' code in American corporate software Indian companies were contracted and _paid_ to retrofit for the Y2K bug!)
The CIA and NSA are underwritten (mostly!) by my tax dollars. I _want_ them to look out for the best interests of American companies.
Additionally, isn't it odd that this guy is the same guy who is currently under investigation for gross misuse of office and various irregularities of information security that put many American agents at risk of their lives. Isn't this the same guy that now represents foreign firms in his consulting practice, after harvesting secrets from the files of the agency he directed, and then getting caught?
Two points: 1) Given the general cluelessness of Reno and the Justice Department (and the FBI! the CIA's Public Enemy #1, led by Louis 'the Clueless' Freeh), isn't it a _good thing_ to have a Cabinet-level officer (DCI) who can counter their drivel and obvious agenda with a _different_ set of facts/perceptions? 2) Since the world's economy is on the skids, and the only quasi-stable economy is that of the US, isn't it in the enlightened self interest of the rest of the world that the US do what is _plainly_ being done by the rest of the world here?
Finally, the economic/technical weapon of tomorrow is embodied in the research of today. To be informed of that potential weapon/technology is a primary tenet of the charter under which the CIA, the NSA (and, yes, even the FBI and Secret Service -although they're not too effective due to their immediate political natures/agendas/concerns/structures) operates. That some of this intelligence finds its way to the very corporations it would most benefit is a fact of life and Federal Budgets (as well as a _very_ good thing!)
Except for the DCI, almost all of the CIA employees are long-term careerists, giving this agency a view _far_ more long than the FBI. Same goes for the NSA.
Paul VerHoeven did the same thing to "Starship Troopers," written by Robert Heinlein as a polemic against Communism/Fascism (he had practical experience as a Naval Officer in World War II). Additionally, the book contained a _very_ moving theme about why soldiers _really_ fight (HINT: it ain't '...for the greater good'), ending the book with "...his name is Zim," that always brought a lump to my throat.
Paul VerHoeven, the producers and Sony _totally_ ignored the _true_ subtexts of the book (even to getting the nationality of the hero wrong - in the book he's Filipino, in the movie, some Aryan-Spanish idiot) in order to promote their 'fascist techno-future' and 'ain't it awful, to vote in the future, you gotta join the military' themes. They didn't even _attempt_ to explain the context in which the political system arose. Then they went on the stump, making sure to talk their leftist, pacifist, trash, while neglecting to mention that the 'themes' they were espousing on their soapboxes weren't even adequately covered in their movie! They defaulted to F/X and gore, as always.
Looks like DePalma took a really good premise and used it for his own political/social ends. But what do we expect from the Money Machine? Until we stop voting with our pocketbooks, they'll continue to pander to the lowest, most ignorant, Luddite common denominator.
When Mary Shelley wrote 'Frankenstein,' she was participating in a critique that she hoped would make sense to both the educated and uneducated people of her day. This was necessary, because democracy was a 'new' invention, and basic reading skills (yes, and sex and race, here in the US and in the UK and France) were all that were needed to vote and influence governments. She did not feel that the 'bread and circuses' of her day were adequate. Witness that the monster is not killed by the mob, but survives to torment the doctor. This is the part Hollywood left out: that the _mob_ was more powerful and worthy of fear, than the monster.
The same is true today. The vast majority of people are ignorant of basic science, math, history, journalism, and their methods. The government and the media know they are ignorant Luddite Lotus Eaters and play to their fear of change. Thankfully, there are the enlightened few who, with reason prevail, and advance us to an age where we don't have to fear smallpox, diptheria, polio, many cancers, etc. and where the other causes of premature human death and unnecessary suffering continue to be solved.
Yes, there are those in the scientific community who are irresponsible. However, in the scientific community (unlike in government and the world at large) they are in the minority and always fail to acheive their ends. The scientific community (until the Web) was the only free, unfettered international community that existed. A scientist isolated does not become a 'Mad Doctor,' he or she ceases to be a scientist and fails. Without community, a scientist fails.
Please, Mr. Joy, go back to the mob and tell your masters: the doctor is not in. The doors will remain closed until you have the necessary keys to enter and, until then, we will continue to work for the common good, of which we are a part.
The A-bomb was dropped twice, by the military, not the scientists...never used again...
The bomb was dropped in answer to a World War, something that (thankfully!!!) the last two generations have not had to deal with. Millions dead, war without end...until the Manhattan Project delivered the Bomb. The alternative was Universal Facism/Militarism with only the Third Reich (the Germans), the Greater East-Asian Co-prosperity Sphere (the Japanese) and a _very_ isolated North/South American Hegemony left to duke it out. Who do you think would have won? Would you even be around? Bottom line: The Bomb killed 35,000 its first use, another 45 - 90,000 its second, and as many as 200,000 total (after one year). The Bomb _saved_ over one million American and British lives, the lives of every Japanese who vowed to 'fight to the death' in defense of the Emperor and the motherland, and put an end to a genocidal _World_ War that was killing and/or enslaving _all_ of the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped (mentally and physically), Chinese, Koreans, Malay, Africans, etc.
During this time the _reality_ of the world was this. _Everyone_ was involved. There _were_ no 'neutral' third parties, only allies and fellow travellers on one side or another (as we have found out from the opening of the Swiss governmental archives). The scientists did not have the _luxury_ of self doubt. If they hadn't done it for their side, the slave labor working for the other side would have. The Japanese were in development of 'heavy water' bombs, as well as the Germans.
Scientists are people too. We work in our labs and 'play' with our atoms (computers, AIs, genomes, u-pickems), but we also ask reasonable, intelligent and educated people to respond to what we are doing. We publish as openly as our governments (and now the Web! Wooo-Hooo!) allows us. Its called the scientific method! Been around and being refined for over 300 years! Its obvious from your question, you have either no idea of what the scientific method is (blame your parents, teachers and government) or were asleep when it was taught (blame yourself).
When Mary Shelley wrote 'Frankenstein,' she was participating in a critique that she hoped would make sense to both the educated and uneducated people of her day. This was necessary, because democracy was a 'new' invention, and basic reading skills (yes, and sex and race, here in the US and in the UK and France) were all that were needed to vote and influence governments. She did not feel that the 'bread and circuses' of her day were adequate. Witness that the monster is not killed by the mob, but survives to torment the doctor. This is the part Hollywood left out: that the _mob_ was more powerful and worthy of fear, than the monster.
The same is true today. The vast majority of people are ignorant of basic science, math, history, journalism, and their methods. The government knows they are ignorant Luddite Lotus Eaters and plays to their fear of change. Thankfully, there are the enlightened few who, with reason prevail, and advance us to an age where we don't have to fear smallpox, diptheria, polio, many cancers, etc. and where the other causes of premature human death and unnecessary suffering continue to be solved.
Yes, there are those in the scientific community who are irresponsible. However, in the scientific community (unlike in government and the world at large) they are in the minority and often fail to acheive their ends. The scientific community (until the Web) was the only free, unfettered international community that existed.
Please, sir or madam, go back to the mob and tell your masters, the doctor is not in. The doors will remain closed until you have the necessary keys to enter and, until then, we will continue to work for the common good, of which we are a part.
Slashdot Mirror
...so maybe you should go back to UW and re-take the Rhetoric 101 class you flunked...and read some Swift and Pepys (not to mention Shakespeare) while you're at it.
obviously you do not use the Gimp and have never installed it on Linux. You already OWN the Gimp (as well as Linux) and must affirmatively consent to this fact before you are allowed to use it the first time.
Big difference from being a publicly traded company whose only capital is intellectual charging $149.00 or more ($100.00 if 'pre-installed') and then another, separate public company charging $200.00 for the software AND NEITHER ONE ACKNOWLEDGING YOUR RIGHT OF FAIR USE OR OWNERSHIP.
Read the GPL and then quiver in fear when you and your ilk in Redmond understand its TRUE ramifications.
So how long have YOU been using computers up there in Redmond, eh? Or did you forget that the Enemy of Innovation didn't 'tie' the browser to the OS until WIN 98?
How did you use a modem before P-N-P? How did you get to the internet? Microsoft didn't invent this technology, it simply used its monopoly power to co-opt it. THAT is what the judge said this afternoon.
Read the homework before you post next time, hmmmm? Nothing in the Findings of Fact OR today's Findings of Law preclude Microsoft from innovating. They just can't use 'innovate' as a code word for stifling competition.
BTW, I see it as a Very Good Thing that Microsoft desist from its '...practice of revising its office suite every few years to make current versions incompatible,' as I believe that this alone would save TREMENDOUS wasted time in resubmissions of e-mails and files in business.
...and how IS the weather in Redmond?
...the agency that does it, for public companies is called the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).
Public companies are required to file mountains of paperwork to keep the investing public informed. This results in very few "closed doors" in a public company, as any misstatement or omission of facts leaves the company and its officers open to tremendous civil and criminal liability.
In fact, the only reason 19 sovreign states are involved, is partly because of just such civil lawsuits filed in their courts against the Enemy of Innovation. They have 'tied' those cases and others (state anti-trust and consumer class-action lawsuits) together as a condition of their participation in the current DOJ case.
It is also interesting to note that another tech company (Seagate/Veritas) that sought to go private again to preclude the 'open sourcing' of their business affairs via the SEC rules is getting clobbered in the Market currently.
...my point still stands. The original post was on the (presumed by the poster) irresponsibility of scientists ("...play with your atoms...") and the fact the leadership were not smart enough to do it themselves.
Actually, the Soviets' presence in Europe had less to do with the fate of the Nazis and more with the British. The opening of a Second Front gave the Western Powers time to win the Battle of the Atlantic and stage the D-Day invasion. It is my opinion the bombs were dropped after the fall of the Reichstag (and after our lesson in Okinawa) as much to get the Soviets' attention and stop their advance in Asia (as well as Europe) before we were continued in the war against the only remaining undefeated Axis power.
As to heavy water, it had nothing to do with fusion bombs, it was simply a way of better refining and accumulating fissionable material. Also, we had no idea of possible sizes of fission bombs, or their delivery (remember 'Atomic Annie' and 'David'?). We only knew _we_ couldn't make them any smaller.
Unfortunately the citations available are at work on my laptop. More tomorrow.
...and step away from it....
Now re-read my post.
You're forgiven.
As to the 'Money Machine,' I believe their quasi-science is what gets us into impossible discussions/rants like the earlier 'Joy Manifesto' thread. I don't want screening for purity...just accuracy and faithfulness to the author (if based on a book) or at least to the audience as somewhat intelligent adults.
...you wouldn't know a fascist if he had his boot on your neck you cowardly little sack of quivering dung!
BTW, did I ever tell you AC's what pretty little ol' mouths you had?
Hollywood crap again. The 'Australia' defense was one concoted by the 'young man's ' lawyers at his trial. The real reason those two bozoids did the deed was completely for the cash, in order to buy cocaine to deal to their high school and college buddies.
Tomorrow for you too.
"...Proud to be the laughingstock of every thinking person in the world..."
}}Nope, proud to sign my name and leave an email address, unlike you, you _COWARD_! As to the boy remark, email me and we'll arrange to work that out in meat space.{{
Everything else you sent was out of context, as usual with you cowardly US bashers.
It's late, I'm tired. Tomorrow for you.
I did not post as 'flame-bait' and can back up _everything_ I have asserted above. I think this would require a bunch of different threads to which I would _love_ to contribute facts, but it is after midnite here and I have to be up early for work. If the thread is still open tomorrow morning, I will respond with the beginnings of links and reasoning.
In the meantime, to begin, see my response below to the Russian gentleman who asked for a source for my assertion that the KGB commited acts of economic espionage against the entire West, but especially the US (I give the ISBN for the Mitrokhin files, in which it is documented that the _only_ way the Russians were able to prop up their bankrupt system was through economic espionage. Otherwise the 70 Years War would have ended immediately after the Cuban Missle Crisis.).
I agree that Echelon and economic espionage is distasteful. That does not make it unnecessary. As pointed out in a previous post, the US, these days, is nothing _but_ an economy. My tastes run towards Freeman Dyson's 'village.' I hope it comes soon. In the meantime, we must live in reality.
You might also consider the source of the report. Former-DCI Woolsey has his reasons for smearing his former agency and his government.
Thank you for your clarification of the roles/functions of MI5 and MI6. I can never keep them straight, but, then, that's the point, isn't it?
If the post is closed before I can reply, please feel free to Email me. I _never_ send unsolicited emails directly from a Slashdot posting thread, but given time, I always reply to my Email...perhaps I should contemplate resurrecting my INTELL page, and trying to get Hemos to post it. Maybe we can meet on USENET?
Okay...._finally_ an interesting thread.
1. HUMINT. Thread focusses on trade craft and the tools of the trade. START. The Watergate Plumbers-type tech and how far it has come (I think your 'local bug' idea would go here.
2. SIGINT. Thread focusses on tech and countermeasures. START. ???countermeasures? methods? maybe a discussion of FreeNet/Free SWAN or the advantages/disdvantages of symmetric vs. asymmetric key systems. Or maybe one-time pad encryption or key distribution systems. TEMPEST/VanEyck?
3. ELINT. Thread focusses on tech. START. ???countermeasures. differences/values between ELINT and SIGINT.
4. MSINT. Thread focusses on this _very_ new technology. START. Maybe a definition of Multi-spectral intelligence and a discussion/thread of state of the art. Or maybe the application of quantum methods. ???countermeasures??? (THAT would be interesting, nerds discussing the theoretical uses and defenses against using quantum effects to gather intelligence!)
Nice thought experiment, CRAW, thanks!
1. You don't get in to the SCI/Close-held cells because they are by nature 'NOFORN,' meaning 'no foreign nationals'. Unless the cell is 'countermarked' allowing access to Canadian nationals (normally military or GCHQ/CSIS) you don't even know the cell exists. If you have no access to the cell you don't see its methods/information/technology. Thus, you can't know what you are talking about.
2. The whole _purpose_ of a program 'like' Echelon (if Echelon exists), in my mind, would be for everyone to plead 'plausible deniability.' The CSIS, spies on the US and the CIA/NSA spies on Canada, then we swap info. Nobody violates any laws in their respective countries as to domestic collection. They rely on their 'cousins' for that. That's not what I was talking about in my previous post. I was not talking necessarily about the CSIS alone. I was also including the Canadian counterpart to the Commerce Department, who, like the US cousins (as well as the State Department) has an intelligence arm. Also, CSIS corporate types would probably be in a separate cell structure/department from yours, so you wouldn't even know they were there. This last would be especially true if you were involved with the NSA, as you allege, since you are now 'suspect.' and possibly compromised or conflicted in your loyalties.
3. I _know_ what can be known. Believe me. I too have stories of things that go "PFFFFT,' in the night. The only defense is to live a life free of secrets and to _always_ be on your guard and prepared to defend yourself by any means necessary. I don't want to live in a cave. And I make a quite nice living with computers. As long as I stay away from the security aspects of the technology, I am left alone. I believe that a gentleman in New Orleans, Louisiana put it best when he said "Three can keep a secret, if two are dead."
Finally, I would not call you a liar, except to your face. But your post is one of the 'insoluble problems' with AC's. If you are for real, then you you would not post except by AC, because of your paranoia. However, there is no way to tell if you are lying, as an AC, especially given the tone of your post and your obvious lack of a grasp of reality: ie: Canadian security personnel in the US and aimed at the US will look out for Canada first. To believe anything else is paranoid conspiracist claptrap.
"I find these remarks regarding this matter extremely offending."
}}Tough. And the word is 'offensive.' I found your post (the initial one) to be offensive, as well as misinformed and naive. The article was making the point about Europe, not Japan. You opened that can of worms.
As to your 5 engineer friends, did they enjoy their stay in Krasnoyarsk? As to who replaced Toshiba, who cares...it just proves the ruthlessness of the Japanese, even towards their own countrymen. I do know that _no_ Japanese national or employee of a Japanese company has (or ever will) receive the same co-operation from the US Defense establishment that they enjoyed prior to this incident.
Finally, just as you were misinformed about the airliners (which were done by _French_ spooks on _French_ planes) you are misinformed about the details of the Toshiba case.
In the late 1960's American firms were targeted by the Japanese State Intelligence service on behalf of MITI, the Ministry of Technology. One of the vertical markets (I believe there were 10) that were targeted was the machine tool industry. Those companies who were not open or greedy enough to have their patents stolen or bought out from under them, were bought outright when the Yen rose in prominence against the US dollar during the recession of the late '70s. Toshiba was one of a number of 'zaibatsu' that benefitted from this program. The result was the absolute _ruin_ of small, progressive American machine tool companies, one of the only sectors of the American economy where quality and W. Edwards Deming's work was respected and successful. This was probably when the company you work for was bought by your Japanese parent.
In the early 80s, it was discovered that many of the machine tool technologies that had been accquired, and, more importantly, many of the vital industrial secrets that were shared with Japanese firms in the name of the national security of both Japan and the US were finding their way into the hands of the Soviet Union. The case came to light when the Americans broke up a KGB "Technical Collection Cell' in the Kobe Prefecture (either Yokosuka or Yokohama) involving a group of Russian, East German and Korean, and Japanese nationals. So much for 'honest, open and integrity.' As a result, the Toshiba case came to light as a joint KGB/MITI operation. When the full details of Toshiba's duplicity were made public, I remember being on a submarine base and employees of the NEX and some sailors were in the parking lot smashing Toshiba televisions and stereos. Saw the same thing at the exchanges in Subic Bay and Yokosuka. Toshiba was lucky it was allowed to continue in business, given that the _entire_ weight of Japan's external defense fell on (and still falls on) the US. The damage to both Japanese and US anational security was so severe, there were very real concerns for the continuance of the relationship.
Now, on to your original post: Being as how you work for a Japanese company, your company has little to fear on a JAL (Japanese government owned) airliner. An Intel or Red Hat or TransMeta executive, however, has much to fear, dating all the way back to before WWII.
Japanese state intelligence agencies have _always_ targeted US corps. Been far more successful at it than we have against them. That was my response to your original post.
Don't try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. And don't comment on something you are obviously so ignorant about, without doing all yoour homework. Waikarimas?
"No American corporation has ever sold vital technologies to dangerous governments?
}}Didn't say that. Said French, German, etc. did, and that, when _their_ economies/safety were threatened (Cold War, Gulf War, Anti-terrorist war) we put our _most precious treasure_ (young American lives) in harms' way for them...read some _real_ history for a change!{{
"The American government has never given weapons to dangerous people?"
}}When it suited our purposes, yes...but, then I was replying to someone who was bashing the US as evil. Don't you want _your_ country to continue to exist? How are _your_ rights protected? By whose blood? Blood is the only price Freedom honors, unfortunately. Ask Gandhi.{{
That America did not speak out against him for his genocide until later when it served a strategic purpose
}}Hussein was a foil the _entire_ West used to counter the threat Iran posed to Saudi Arabia. We have paid a price for what we did to Iraq with higher oil prices, the early nineties economic collapses/recessions and 249 dead young American soldiers. If Hussein gasses his own people, that's the Iraqi's business, in accordance to UN directive.{{
motivate Americans to support an unjust war
}}Don't get me started......short answer: go ask a Kuwaiti survivor of the Iraqi atrocities how 'unjust' the war was...for that matter, go ask a Kurd.{{
Bottom line, I was responding to an attack on _my_ country by an obviously misinformed and incompletely prepared individual...as you are misinformed and unprepared.
Go do your homework, kid. Its time for the grownups to talk. If you want us to take you seriously here, sign your posts. Otherwise you really _are_ a coward. Oh! Can't sign? Afraid your government will track you or your relatives down? Don't you wish you lived here where we are _FREE_ to sign our names and proud?
French state intelligence bugged the headrests of Air France airliners (and sunk the Rainbow Warrior, the flagship of GreenPeace in the South Pacific, killing two anti-nuclear activists). The UK and Germany, as well as Canada, Australia, Japan, South Africa, and India have all had members of their foreign intelligence services 'invited to leave' the United States after their efforts to suborn US high tech
workers and government bureaucrats have been compromised by the FBI, and CIA counter-intelligence.
We are only returning the favors done to us by our erstwhile 'allies!'
Full title: The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB
p ?theisbn=0465003109
:-p
Available from FatBrain at: http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.as
From the FatBrain(TM) summary:
"-KGB's attempts to steal technological secrets from major U.S. aerospace and technology corporations. Their success seems to have inspired Chinese intelligence to do likewise."
The book is really very interesting, as Mitrokhin was an MI6-UK coup and not a US double. He was a commited Communist apparatchik who, by contact with the KGB archives (he was the chief archivist during the move from the Dzerzhinsky complex to the new SRV site outside Moscow,) became disillusioned and began to copy and smuggle out the entirety of the KGB historical archives. He stowed them in his dacha and took a train to the West and on to London, where they debriefed him for three years before they went public. The intelligence agencies in the UK _still_ haven't turned over _all_ the files to their 'cousins' in America, Canada, India, Ireland, Germany, France and Isreal, citing 'national security reasons.'
Among the most damaging revelations was that the Secretaries of the Treasury and State under Roosevelt, right before he died, were KGB/GRU 'sleepers' compromised in the '30's.
A _really_ amazing book.
Final, from the FatBrain(TM) summary:
"The Sword and the Shield is a work of great historical significance, which will fundamentally alter our understanding of Soviet history and modern international relations. For Russia's post-Soviet intelligence service, SVR, the publication of this book poses a real problem. No one who spied for Russia between 1917 and the final years of the Cold War can be sure anymore that his or her secrets are secure."
Any worries, Alex?
...or is it 'Charles'?
According to the original Echelon docs, the Canadians and Canadian businesses are benefitting as much if not more! Go to the Aussie site or the UCS site for more info.
Hypocrite!
More info here: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1995/950 109/950109.intelligence.html Any wonder why he has it in for his old agency?
My bad! See http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/d eutch000209.html) and my _sincere_ apologies to former-Dirctor Woolsey. He wasn't the guy who compromised the CIA, he almost brought it down because it 'bored' him and he wanted DoD instead. See http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1995/950 109/950109.intelligence.html for more.
Ignored Aldrich Ames and was an authoritarian bureaucrat...consider the source.
Some of our old friends and allies: ie: France (the airliners) and the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Belgium and Switzerland (the briefcase).
Lest we forget, it was a Japanese company (a maker of machine tools) that sold the Russians milling and lathing tools to enable them to work titanium and quiet their subs. This enabled the Russians to get _much closer_ (try closer than 12 miles) with their missle subs, and put the US, Europe and_JAPAN_ at greater risk from _very_ inaccurate (at distance) sub-launched ICBMs.
It was Germany and France that sold Khaddafy and Hussein the industrial ingredients for bio and nuclear weapons of mass destruction.
Thank God (in this case) for the CIA/NSA.
Isreal, France, the UK, and the masters of this, the Russians, have all admitted the same.
The French Surete and the DGE were caught bugging the business class of Air France airliners. MI5 and MI6 were caught in France, Germany and the US doing the same. Jonathon Pollard was doing it for Isreal, and then the Mossad was caught actively recruiting 'agents-in-place' in American high tech firms. The Russians admitted that the only thing that kept them on par with the Americans (and kept them from being militarily, the Third World country they were in reality) during the Cold War was economic espionage (second on their 'To-Do' list only to suppressing dissidents -internal and external- Read 'The KGB Papers' for more.) Let's not mention China and India (India was caught planting 'Trojan' code in American corporate software Indian companies were contracted and _paid_ to retrofit for the Y2K bug!)
The CIA and NSA are underwritten (mostly!) by my tax dollars. I _want_ them to look out for the best interests of American companies.
Additionally, isn't it odd that this guy is the same guy who is currently under investigation for gross misuse of office and various irregularities of information security that put many American agents at risk of their lives. Isn't this the same guy that now represents foreign firms in his consulting practice, after harvesting secrets from the files of the agency he directed, and then getting caught?
Two points:
1) Given the general cluelessness of Reno and the Justice Department (and the FBI! the CIA's Public Enemy #1, led by Louis 'the Clueless' Freeh), isn't it a _good thing_ to have a Cabinet-level officer (DCI) who can counter their drivel and obvious agenda with a _different_ set of facts/perceptions?
2) Since the world's economy is on the skids, and the only quasi-stable economy is that of the US, isn't it in the enlightened self interest of the rest of the world that the US do what is _plainly_ being done by the rest of the world here?
Finally, the economic/technical weapon of tomorrow is embodied in the research of today. To be informed of that potential weapon/technology is a primary tenet of the charter under which the CIA, the NSA (and, yes, even the FBI and Secret Service -although they're not too effective due to their immediate political natures/agendas/concerns/structures) operates. That some of this intelligence finds its way to the very corporations it would most benefit is a fact of life and Federal Budgets (as well as a _very_ good thing!)
Except for the DCI, almost all of the CIA employees are long-term careerists, giving this agency a view _far_ more long than the FBI. Same goes for the NSA.
This time its the Luddites (DePalma) that win...
Paul VerHoeven did the same thing to "Starship Troopers," written by Robert Heinlein as a polemic against Communism/Fascism (he had practical experience as a Naval Officer in World War II). Additionally, the book contained a _very_ moving theme about why soldiers _really_ fight (HINT: it ain't '...for the greater good'), ending the book with "...his name is Zim," that always brought a lump to my throat.
Paul VerHoeven, the producers and Sony _totally_ ignored the _true_ subtexts of the book (even to getting the nationality of the hero wrong - in the book he's Filipino, in the movie, some Aryan-Spanish idiot) in order to promote their 'fascist techno-future' and 'ain't it awful, to vote in the future, you gotta join the military' themes. They didn't even _attempt_ to explain the context in which the political system arose. Then they went on the stump, making sure to talk their leftist, pacifist, trash, while neglecting to mention that the 'themes' they were espousing on their soapboxes weren't even adequately covered in their movie! They defaulted to F/X and gore, as always.
Looks like DePalma took a really good premise and used it for his own political/social ends. But what do we expect from the Money Machine? Until we stop voting with our pocketbooks, they'll continue to pander to the lowest, most ignorant, Luddite common denominator.
Its all about the Benjamins...and the limelight.
When Mary Shelley wrote 'Frankenstein,' she was participating in a critique that she hoped would make sense to both the educated and uneducated people of her day. This was necessary, because democracy was a 'new' invention, and basic reading skills (yes, and sex and race, here in the US and in the UK and France) were all that were needed to vote and influence governments. She did not feel that the 'bread and circuses' of her day were adequate. Witness that the monster is not killed by the mob, but survives to torment the doctor. This is the part Hollywood left out: that the _mob_ was more powerful and worthy of fear, than the monster.
The same is true today. The vast majority of people are ignorant of basic science, math, history, journalism, and their methods. The government and the media know they are ignorant Luddite Lotus Eaters and play to their fear of change. Thankfully, there are the enlightened few who, with reason prevail, and advance us to an age where we don't have to fear smallpox, diptheria, polio, many cancers, etc. and where the other causes of premature human death and unnecessary suffering continue to be solved.
Yes, there are those in the scientific community who are irresponsible. However, in the scientific community (unlike in government and the world at large) they are in the minority and always fail to acheive their ends. The scientific community (until the Web) was the only free, unfettered international community that existed. A scientist isolated does not become a 'Mad Doctor,' he or she ceases to be a scientist and fails. Without community, a scientist fails.
Please, Mr. Joy, go back to the mob and tell your masters: the doctor is not in. The doors will remain closed until you have the necessary keys to enter and, until then, we will continue to work for the common good, of which we are a part.
The A-bomb was dropped twice, by the military, not the scientists...never used again...
The bomb was dropped in answer to a World War, something that (thankfully!!!) the last two generations have not had to deal with. Millions dead, war without end...until the Manhattan Project delivered the Bomb. The alternative was Universal Facism/Militarism with only the Third Reich (the Germans), the Greater East-Asian Co-prosperity Sphere (the Japanese) and a _very_ isolated North/South American Hegemony left to duke it out. Who do you think would have won? Would you even be around? Bottom line: The Bomb killed 35,000 its first use, another 45 - 90,000 its second, and as many as 200,000 total (after one year). The Bomb _saved_ over one million American and British lives, the lives of every Japanese who vowed to 'fight to the death' in defense of the Emperor and the motherland, and put an end to a genocidal _World_ War that was killing and/or enslaving _all_ of the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped (mentally and physically), Chinese, Koreans, Malay, Africans, etc.
During this time the _reality_ of the world was this. _Everyone_ was involved. There _were_ no 'neutral' third parties, only allies and fellow travellers on one side or another (as we have found out from the opening of the Swiss governmental archives). The scientists did not have the _luxury_ of self doubt. If they hadn't done it for their side, the slave labor working for the other side would have. The Japanese were in development of 'heavy water' bombs, as well as the Germans.
Scientists are people too. We work in our labs and 'play' with our atoms (computers, AIs, genomes, u-pickems), but we also ask reasonable, intelligent and educated people to respond to what we are doing. We publish as openly as our governments (and now the Web! Wooo-Hooo!) allows us. Its called the scientific method! Been around and being refined for over 300 years! Its obvious from your question, you have either no idea of what the scientific method is (blame your parents, teachers and government) or were asleep when it was taught (blame yourself).
When Mary Shelley wrote 'Frankenstein,' she was participating in a critique that she hoped would make sense to both the educated and uneducated people of her day. This was necessary, because democracy was a 'new' invention, and basic reading skills (yes, and sex and race, here in the US and in the UK and France) were all that were needed to vote and influence governments. She did not feel that the 'bread and circuses' of her day were adequate. Witness that the monster is not killed by the mob, but survives to torment the doctor. This is the part Hollywood left out: that the _mob_ was more powerful and worthy of fear, than the monster.
The same is true today. The vast majority of people are ignorant of basic science, math, history, journalism, and their methods. The government knows they are ignorant Luddite Lotus Eaters and plays to their fear of change. Thankfully, there are the enlightened few who, with reason prevail, and advance us to an age where we don't have to fear smallpox, diptheria, polio, many cancers, etc. and where the other causes of premature human death and unnecessary suffering continue to be solved.
Yes, there are those in the scientific community who are irresponsible. However, in the scientific community (unlike in government and the world at large) they are in the minority and often fail to acheive their ends. The scientific community (until the Web) was the only free, unfettered international community that existed.
Please, sir or madam, go back to the mob and tell your masters, the doctor is not in. The doors will remain closed until you have the necessary keys to enter and, until then, we will continue to work for the common good, of which we are a part.