I don't get it, I am absolutely not technically experienced, however, I run Ubuntu Linux 9.04 and everything is running smoothly and perfectly on my half-decade old machine! So what's all the fuzz?
The article goes on to say that Gecko has come a long way since 2003 and have become much leaner and meaner! And from Firefox 4 on it will be even more lean than ever. So they still can compete with Webkit.
I use Firefox mainly besides my Opera (Presto engine), I have used KDE's KHTML in Konqueror but to my opinion it lags far behind Gecko/Firefox. Maybe this is due to Konqueror and maybe KHTML and WebKit are absolutely not compareble. Can someone tell something about that?
well Government can't really claim you abuse your "monopoly powers" when you give your OS away for free as well as an office suite for free. Abuse means "you get better of the deal" and ubuntu isn't doing bad, but they're not getting rich with it.
This is not just dumb, MS never said that someone has to use their software. BUT a matter of fact is that 90% of the world computers run MS, and MS tries everything to do the same for servers, pda's, mobiles and embedded apps...... on many markets there is competition, but on the desktop market there has not been a real alternative. As such most developers had to design for windows. In this situation, Microsoft was able to block developers of competitors to fully integrate their products with windows and force them out of the market!
Maybe you should deselect "raise windows on events", then also make sure that guifications are not selected as well as all message notifications and last you can select the system tray icon, which keeps all windows down from popping up and as such you can play your game!
I have used Microsoft sotware since the early 1990's, as my dad worked at IBM and got his first PS in 1989 with OS2 Warp and later a PS2 with microsoft windows 95 and so on we moved as Linux was unknown to us then. In the early 2000's I first tried SuSE Linux 7.0 but I wasn't that good with it, later the early 2005 I tried SuSE 9.2 but again I couldn't figure it all out. when my MS windows XP crashed again in june 2005 I was fed up and migrated to Linux again. I was adviced to try Ubuntu Linux, and within 2 weeks I figured it all out..... I admit that I had migrated on windows to open source as firefox, thunderbird, openoffice and gaim (my most used programs!)..... the same I use on Linux.
I don't see any trouble moving to Linux, besides the less developed sound systems.... when using Skype the sound (ALSA I use) under Linux is just worse than under windows...... it doesn't count for playing multimedia (music and movies), however only when playing music and receiving skype calls my sound system crashes under Linux! (anyone has a clue?)..... overall, I don't get it that people still pay at least $ 450 for a Microsoft system (windows and office)....
the Firefly http://www.fireflyfans.net/main.asp series were a blast, and the movie Serenity http://www.serenitymovie.com/ is a must be seen too! Especially since it took a different turn: no aliens, just humans in space! Nice thought pattern as it reintroduces the frontier and outlaws in space!
I agree, I watched the screenshots show and most pics are the same as Ubuntu installer at 5.04 and 5.10....... so a short message installer resembles previous releases should be enough!
how is the potty training of your puppy, eh spam-filter going?
I know some KDE programs I prefer above their GNOME counterparts! AmaroK above any XMMS or Rhytmbox is on top of my list! Furthermore under GNOME the Skype interface looks like shit and I have read nowhere how to get it any decent, except on the Ubuntuforums where people advice to install the Qt libraries and KCentre to manage the looks of KDE programs, also if u used GNOME. So even though GNOME would be my prefered interface, I currently work a lot with KDE as well as I've installed both of them!
Rhodes Island, Vermont, Massachussetes, New Jersey, Delaware....... all fit into Germany and the UK many times....... don't get into this game. If comparing the USA with Western Europe, don't compare each European nation to the All Mighty Ruling State and Republic of Texas. As that is one of the biggest states.... But Europe as a whole, and the USA as a whole are rather comparative! Both in size (yeah, the USA is larger), population (yup, Europe got more), wealth (overall USA slightly richer, Europe much more equally devided wellfare), and development!
Basically, this whole issue and post is just a sidetrack full of nationalist bullshit, born out of presumable ignorance of the other! Next time in stead of shooting first, we might start asking first. I understand, for Second Amendment Worshiping Americans, that is difficult, as you're born with your hands on a trigger*, but try it for once!
*also an assumed prejudice!
Ahem, you really thought that Europe is some underdeveloped nation without roads?
For the record we invented those railroads of you, as well as the "automobile" (car).... and never claimed ownership of it, nope the biggest manufacturers are in the USA. There is I guess a huge misconception on the EU effort to open control of the Internet. As the http://www.eff.org/ states, the USA isn't completely defending freedom of speech, as their site notes numerous rulings and laws which curb these freedoms. And now with the so called terrorist threat it will be only worse. I admit that Europe is doing it's part as well, but hey selfreflection you see is a great good!
Now, let me alter some of your visions: Also in Europe we have an extensive railroad and road system, especially in the West. Hack, it's well reknowned that these railroads were the basis of the German succes in World War I and these roads were the basis of Nazi-German World War II succes!
Furthermore, we have cable too, and most Europeans surf the net on a broadband cable or DSL line, as well as we have clear water running from the tap. My country is known for having such fresh water from the tap, it's internationally only rivaled by the likes of perrier! So, please next time don't think the US is top of the hill on development, because then we start about the 20% of your population living bellow poverty level, like many people in Africa, making us Europeans wonder if we shouldn't sent some ships with food and development groups over there, as your government doesn't care for it's people!
Yup, hear, hear, let all rednecks come and claim our governments are a bunch of commies, we just laugh on that. Because, here we can choose between more than 2 president candidates, here elections aren't stolen and here the media doesn't commit volunteer censorship, nor it supports but one political party.......... well besides the Italian, but they are considered, hmmm, "different"... so, many of us our proud of Europe too....... It's not that we think the US is all bad, so let us cut the crap and focus on what this issue is about:
Internet is an international commodity, a technology invented mainly by the US DoD, but the European CERN has contributed significantly as well. However, as many people, nations and companies rely on it, world wide, we should see how we can open up. Simply saying the US is doing a great job isn't sufficient. That is like saying: our government is best and as such, we rule your country.......... were are the democratic values?
p.s. when I say Europe, it's a little arogant and wrong, as I mean Western Europe, and actually mainly North Western Europe!
So you learned some "intelligent words" on school as your motivism and lack any substance to international relations theory and think with cheap scolding you can win over some arguments. It doesn't make me wanna give any more info about freedom of speech on the internet, besides the fact that your whole statement that Europe wants to connect with nations who want to limit it is based on nothing but your own vision. Europe is the inventor of freedom of speech, the whole second amendment is based on the philosophy and logic of John Lock, an Englishman, who came to these thoughts with people like Rousseau, Voltaire (the inventor of Trias Politcia: separation of powers)! So claiming Europe is against it is bullshit. And as such, I don't find the need of "proving" the curbing of freedom of speech on the internet! Again, you separate freedom on the net from freedom in general, and I think tthat's a bit unusual and weird. As freedom should be universal!
At least you show some selfreflection calling yoruself an anonymous coward, furthermore I will abstain from discussing any matter with creatures like you, as any form of "coming to mutual understanding and agreement" is impossible with types like you! To freely quote your words and make my point clear to you:
There is no discussion based on arguments and mutual respect with you, so please do not attempt to answer here..... as I consider it a waste of time to listen to people who consider themselves to be the sole owner of wisdom and intelligence and in the meanwhile use words as deluted fuckwit to discribe people they disagree with. I will abstain from using a similar kind of arsenal of swearwords, as I consider that a way of talking of the lesser developed individuals!
see it ain't so difficult to use some sort of intelligent grammar, however, it doesn't solve anything, neither freedom of speech, neither the whole issue of the Internet. If you don't wanna get the message.......... happy isolation, as I would be delighted to live in a world free of such a narrow minded thoughtpattern!
What has that to do with freedom of speech on the internet?
So we separate Freedom of Speech on the Internet with Freedom of Speech in general? Really if I have to explain to you why it's weird a country's claim to defend Freedom of Speech shows a little hypocritical to others, only proves to many that Freedom of Speech is a farce in the USA and your schoolsystem does indeed educate to listen and follow in stead of "think freely"!
But then your opinion on the BBC, as it is liberal which should be bad, what is that? I thought the USA was a liberal country, or are you just plain conservatives and is liberal now equal to communist? After the communist haunt in the '50's we gonna get the Liberal Chase in the 21st century?
And it's nice to see, that when someone tries to make a bridge by saying we stand on the same side, you prefer to see it different and claims we don't! If you really like to see your country to stand alone..... then so be it, take your internet, your version of freedom of speech (for conservatives) and your version of truth, attack the rest of the world for indeed, ever changing reasons and be happy with it! If you really can't see any attemt for peacefull reconcilliation, but prefers to feel attacked I guess there is not possible any discussion!
And with (former) Colonies in:
Philipines
Cuba (Guantanamo Bay)
Puerto Rico
It's a little weird to complain only we had them! We disolved most of them, and gave the option to the rest to leave too or stay as integrated parts of Europe! I'm just making a point, the USA installed the same dictators which they try to get rid of now. Which would be a good thing, if it could be done in legitimate ways now. That is by the UN, because, wheter you like it or not, there is such a thing as International Law, designed even BY the USA, during World War II. So you can say it need to be changed. But do we first change the law and then implement it, or can we just do what we think is good? Because that would mean, you or I can shoot random people in the US, claiming they are criminal and it SHOULD be the law that we have the right to do so. But noppe, we don't do that, we FIRST lobby for a new law, then we start shooting, after that law is drafted and accepted!
So again, above part about the law is not against the US. It is against those individuals who say that a Bush invasion in Iraq is rightfull, because every law-abiding person should agree it's not. Has nothing to do with the fact that Saddam was a crook and should be replaced. We agree on that part, as I think he should have, and even praise the US in some way for doing so. I just say: stick to the law, change the law if necessary, but don't break it!
Why do Americans feel attacked all the time? I thought, at least I tried to be critical, though bridge the division.......... my whole point was that we should put our differences aside and see how we can solve this issue (and many others we have) in stead of continue to stirr up hatered and emphasising the differences and disagreements!
Listen, don't think the USA is so ok, my US fiance still wants the Disney movie Song of the Southhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_the_South which isn't sold over there, coz it's supposedly racist! A part of your history which even coporate America tries to whippe out! When I explained it, doesn't mean I agree with it, I show you a thought pattern practised by governments and corporations alike!
That's such a non-argument! The Europeans invented the steammachine, electricity, the railroad, they improved gunpowder, the guns, the medicine etc... etc....
Let's take electricity: Edison neither Bell would have been succesfull without it, or when Europe would have kept it for itself, neither the internet would have been possible, and the railroads: the USA wouldn't have become a worldpower without it! Or the automobile as it was originally called: Americans can't live without it, invented by Europeans, triggering the Wright brothers to try to get a likewise machine in the air!
So, you have invented it........ but keeping it for yourself would be stupid as it would be meaningless: all americans chatting together, what nice. No it's the fact that Americans can finaly meet people outside their own narrow minded internal faced culture and see the world what makes internet valuable. And the same count for the Europeans and the rest of the world! The fact we can communicate now, exchange ideas...... that's the value of the net!
Claiming that the US has freemarket and Europe don't is another bullshit argument. Our economy runs on free corporations as well. The difference is, we have governments who try to take care of people and stimmulate them to take part in the process, you got a government who excludes millions, making some TV celeb recently to realise that as much as 20% of the nations lives bellow poverty level with no electricity, water, education or any change on improvement, a figure only rivaled by Africa! And we don't say you hand over things, we say you open up! The USA is a Microsoft: one rule all, Europe prefers Open Source: let's share and improve together. Because, you didn't invent it all by yourself! It's exactley this arrogance that makes the USA more and more isolated, don't you guys ever get that?
So what are you saying Godwin?
That that the action of the EU is a good thing? That giving control to the UN is meant to bring the internet out of state control? And when did the US prove it is willing to execute it's control? Because I probably missed that point!
Anyway, if the state that exercise control over the Internet is in Europe I would be "under it's control", however I doubt it is, so I ain't! I guess u need to talk with the other dude in this threat! As I agree with you, that Internet shouldn't be controlled by one! In other threads I read Americans bitching that they can't stand it that they pay for it when the rest wants to control it. Who said they has to pay for it? International control means splitting the bill! Yeah, that's right, a Dutchman saying he is willing to take his share of the costs!
I don't think the Europeans say the USA hasn't done a great job, actually they did. Although in the whole "who invented the net" discussion, the claim that European CERN has invented some great deal, can't be neglected. However, let's get over with it!
The point is, First Amendment in place........ you actually claim that only the USA has freedom of speech, and teaches it's people in all freedom, and that even Europe (France in your example) keeps it's people ignorant? The fact France prohibits eBay to sell Nazi stuff has nothing to do with freedom of speech, but with bloody memories of a War that destroyed much of Europe! And it doesn't mean people aren't taught about the whole thing, it's just not allowed to possess it for "glorifying" purposes.
And how free is the USA? My fiance was never taught anything about the Theories of Darwin, instead she learned God created the earth in 6 days and rested the 7th! Were is freedom of speech? Were is the First Amendment there? So internet gives you freedom, but if people aren't taught to use it properly, they still can't find a thing. Because, the amount of Americans bitching on Europe clearly shows they have:
1) never been in Europe
2) never read a European newspaper or internet site!
I suggest to all those to visit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/ for some news from and about Europe! Good start for Americans, as it's English and they are regarded the most Americanized, together with my nation of the Dutch! So yeah start bitching about me, I ain't French, neither German.... I just want to say: let us put things in perspective!
This whole internet thing is not about the technology, neither about some fucked up dictators hooking up with Europe or vice versa. Europe stands on the same ground as the USA concerning freedom of speech and democracy. However, in European views it seems the USA sometimes seem to forget who his friends are..... I can imagine the USA feels likewise, well that means we should sit down and talk, sort the matter out. Bitching we don't have freedom of speech or "support dictators" only lead us to claim counterwise (Evolution Theory, and all the dictators in Latin America, Middle East, South Asia and Africa who are installed by the USA!)....... but that's not the point!
Point is, if we claim that we are democrats and support freedom and freedom of speech in special, we should focus on that: How to create an internet in which decesions on DNS and other tech-specs are made democratically and were freedoms are guaranteed! Because none can claim the current syste is democratic, and that's what we in Europe perceive: the USA acts non-democratic and shuts us out!
Well dear RexRhino,
Clearly u misread my article, because nowhere I stated that I supported the proposal of the EU, neither did I claim that I was ok with the idea to hook-up with Chinese and other nations who take freedom of speech not for granted, contrary. However, the thing I tried to say, and I will make it more clear now, was the pattern leading to this. You might wonder what 5000 nukes, the 1970's and economic power has to do with the internet. It's the people, here, there everywhere...... they don't see separate institutions and subjects of discussion and conflict. They see one dominating them, and feel uncomfortable with it. Again, just for the record, I don't talk about myself...... as I put in my first post: my fiance is American, I have nothing against Americans, neither against the USA. I'm just a geopolitician of realism school...... and as international relations is my homeground, that's what I observe at news. The fact that this subject fits in with both IT and Politics brings me here!
By the way, as I hope you can see, I don't get all personal here, however your asumptions and claims made in your last paragraph did. I don't understand the necessity of that, especially the direct claim"people like you", considering the fact you misread my remarks, which might be understandable as they had been summed briefly. I hope this more extensive explanation makes much of my position clear! I would urge you btw to read some about Europe, comparing the Dutch with Nazi Germans isn't the most polite thing to do. Certainly when you consider the fact that my family fought against and suffered significantly under them. I asume you're American who guesses all Europeans are the same, I mean that would be a similar observation, which I hereby don't make.
Again, back to the topic, my point was: I can understand why the EU takes this stance, and why Europeans do feel proud. I also understand that politicians and businessleaders would like to see otherwise. Here comes the paradox of democracy: do we do what people want us to, or do we do what we think is good for them?
About giving up this wonderful free exchange of information called the internet, that's not what I, neither the EU or Canada or Argentina have in mind. I don't get all the fuzz btw, as I think the solution is easy: ICANN control is transferred from the US department of commerce to the UN, and continues business as usual. Individual dictators are kept of bay in this way, as they are nothing more than 1 voice in the whole UN, and the UN has no record of taking steps to limit the freedom of speech, besides there are the EU and USA as members too, and last there is the Security Council who can block every decision. You can't deny the fact that the control, how symbolic it might seem gives the US powers way beyond democratic rules. So why not work that out before it gets out of hand and people demand steps that might lead to worse scenario's!?
In previous discussions about this matter, I already thought this would happen! At one side, it makes me happy: finaly the EU stands up for it's rights and makes a point to US unilateral actions and domination based on nothing more than 5000 nukes! World domination was originally based on economic power, something that has slipped the US since the 70's! So, some nationalistic feeling overcomes me, of which I wonder if it's good or not?
At the other hand, it saddens me, as my fiance is a US citizen, and currently staying in the USA for some time to come. Splitting the internet makes us not being able to communicate other than by that expensive "relic" called a phone........ But, hey she thought her government was tough and smart by defending his citizens rights, now I can claim the same...... and I prove my point to her, that such a policy in this globalizing world is stupid, ignorant and devastating!
conclusion: sad tough, vive l'Europe!
It's nice to be American I guess, well my US Citizen wife does like it. For me, as a Dutchman as for many other non-US citizens, we just have to suffer from the White House and Capitol Hill witts and whims....... and suffer we do! Wheter it's Iraq invasions (no UN embargo), to wheter it's the Internet: The US goes it's own way....... We suffer, coz we're not allowed to vote for the US Congress and US President. And if the USA call itself a democracy, but impose strickt control on the world, that's a bit of a hypocracy and to me sounds a bit contradicting!
So the USA wants to keep strickt control on an Internet that has been invented by the European CERN? That's a fascinating fact, as it shows to me again the worthlessness of European politcians, they just gave it all away! Yes, we should take the blame then on ourselves....... besides, I always thought it was invented by DARPA or the US Army research branch, as well as some commercial companies had their "intranets" (My dad worked at IBM, and was using email long ago in the early seventies already, he never got the fuzz when internet went public, as to him it was normal).
Point is, a global product as internet, should be globally regulated. Especially with DNS, it's like the national currency, the US is making the Brittish pounds, the Euro, the Yen and so forth. No country would accept this and it becomes time the US starts to get that the world doesn't like this state of being! We want to control our own destiny. My wife jokinly tells me that the US doesn't care, and she doesn't, as she is American and sees her country thriving. Now being in the Netherlands and being bitched on dailly by the "Dutch friends", she starts to get the perception of the world!
This whole thing goes beyond the internet, it's part of the whole US arrogance, and slowly this arrogance will destroy the US, as it will aleniate more and more former allies and friends, untill only the UK and Australia are left, and even there the citizens start to hate Americans. I hope for my wifes nation, they realise this sooner, before the rest of the world discover they can do without the US and start to isolate the US from the outside (reversed isolation).
I would like to coment to Hosiah first: there are people who are not paid and are satisfied with Ubuntu, and I'm one of them. New to Linux as I am, I tried to download Fedora, I worked with Suse Linux (9.2), and wasn't able to update one single program with their so credited YAST....... and then I was refered to Ubuntu by some dude on Orkut..... as I needed a alternative for windows, which had crashed.
Ubuntu installed fine with me, didn't take that much time and after the first boot it operated ok. Now I can choose between Gnome (the default for Ubuntu), KDE (tyhe default for Kubuntu), xfde, and enlightenment desktops..... and with the right repositories or Linux knowledge I can imagine anyone to be able to install any desired desktop manager!
The programs to come with Ubuntu are meeting the basic needs for any computer user, and that's what Ubuntu aims for: a Desktop Linux, as an alternative for windows..... So OpenOffice (I agree, it's still 1.1.3 instead of the new 1.1.5 or a working 2.0) or Abiword, Mozilla Thunderbird and Firefox, Gaim... some P2P's, SQL, etc.... and of you go!
Do I have any negative comment, or am I an Ubuntu marketeer in disguise? Yeah there are some negative coments, but they apply more to Debian distro's in general: APT is ok, but the repositories are difficult to find, many software is long updated, but the developer sites offer a range of RPM's etc... but no Debian repositories. Secondly, this refers to Ubuntu: the choice not to join the new DCC initiative, and thus drifting away from Debian and thus the Linux Standard Base.... seems not that smart to me. Further, again to the program updates: to lead people through Ubuntu repository sites, limit their possibilities, why not add the developers sites as well...... then people can enjoy the latest stable releases. And if you're renewing anwyays: for the newest newbee, a graphical installer would be nice, as people can get scared by the old styled installer!
But overall, in my opinion, Ubuntu is one of the easiest Linux Distro's...... I've tried the much aclaimed PCLinuxOS, Foresight Linux and MEPIS....... all refused to boot from CD, claiming errors on the CD..... now this is possible, but why does a later downloaded Kubuntu CD install? Just some thoughts...... it doesn't btw mean I will never try these distro's again, but for the moment, I'm satisfied, and people who ain't and instantly claim "it all sux, and isn't worth a dime"....... that's to me a harsh remark.
I haven't tried OS X but from my view point as a Ubuntu user, I must say, some Linux distro's have improved majorly but still updating software can be a menace! If I don't work my way around the auto-install tool (which is very hard to do for a non-techie) I'm using outdated openoffice, an outdated firefox and so on.... There lies a challenge for Linux..
Slashdot Mirror
I don't get it, I am absolutely not technically experienced, however, I run Ubuntu Linux 9.04 and everything is running smoothly and perfectly on my half-decade old machine! So what's all the fuzz?
I owe Linus and all developers many thanks as they provided me (and many F/LOSS fans with me) with an awesome system! Let's go for the next 17 years!
The article goes on to say that Gecko has come a long way since 2003 and have become much leaner and meaner! And from Firefox 4 on it will be even more lean than ever. So they still can compete with Webkit. I use Firefox mainly besides my Opera (Presto engine), I have used KDE's KHTML in Konqueror but to my opinion it lags far behind Gecko/Firefox. Maybe this is due to Konqueror and maybe KHTML and WebKit are absolutely not compareble. Can someone tell something about that?
well Government can't really claim you abuse your "monopoly powers" when you give your OS away for free as well as an office suite for free. Abuse means "you get better of the deal" and ubuntu isn't doing bad, but they're not getting rich with it.
This is not just dumb, MS never said that someone has to use their software. BUT a matter of fact is that 90% of the world computers run MS, and MS tries everything to do the same for servers, pda's, mobiles and embedded apps...... on many markets there is competition, but on the desktop market there has not been a real alternative. As such most developers had to design for windows. In this situation, Microsoft was able to block developers of competitors to fully integrate their products with windows and force them out of the market!
Maybe you should deselect "raise windows on events", then also make sure that guifications are not selected as well as all message notifications and last you can select the system tray icon, which keeps all windows down from popping up and as such you can play your game!
I have used Microsoft sotware since the early 1990's, as my dad worked at IBM and got his first PS in 1989 with OS2 Warp and later a PS2 with microsoft windows 95 and so on we moved as Linux was unknown to us then. In the early 2000's I first tried SuSE Linux 7.0 but I wasn't that good with it, later the early 2005 I tried SuSE 9.2 but again I couldn't figure it all out. when my MS windows XP crashed again in june 2005 I was fed up and migrated to Linux again. I was adviced to try Ubuntu Linux, and within 2 weeks I figured it all out..... I admit that I had migrated on windows to open source as firefox, thunderbird, openoffice and gaim (my most used programs!)..... the same I use on Linux. I don't see any trouble moving to Linux, besides the less developed sound systems.... when using Skype the sound (ALSA I use) under Linux is just worse than under windows...... it doesn't count for playing multimedia (music and movies), however only when playing music and receiving skype calls my sound system crashes under Linux! (anyone has a clue?)..... overall, I don't get it that people still pay at least $ 450 for a Microsoft system (windows and office)....
the Firefly http://www.fireflyfans.net/main.asp series were a blast, and the movie Serenity http://www.serenitymovie.com/ is a must be seen too! Especially since it took a different turn: no aliens, just humans in space! Nice thought pattern as it reintroduces the frontier and outlaws in space!
I agree, I watched the screenshots show and most pics are the same as Ubuntu installer at 5.04 and 5.10....... so a short message installer resembles previous releases should be enough! how is the potty training of your puppy, eh spam-filter going?
I know some KDE programs I prefer above their GNOME counterparts! AmaroK above any XMMS or Rhytmbox is on top of my list! Furthermore under GNOME the Skype interface looks like shit and I have read nowhere how to get it any decent, except on the Ubuntuforums where people advice to install the Qt libraries and KCentre to manage the looks of KDE programs, also if u used GNOME. So even though GNOME would be my prefered interface, I currently work a lot with KDE as well as I've installed both of them!
sorry to hear Annonymous Coward dude, but blame it on your parents, they shouldn't have named you America!
Rhodes Island, Vermont, Massachussetes, New Jersey, Delaware....... all fit into Germany and the UK many times....... don't get into this game. If comparing the USA with Western Europe, don't compare each European nation to the All Mighty Ruling State and Republic of Texas. As that is one of the biggest states.... But Europe as a whole, and the USA as a whole are rather comparative! Both in size (yeah, the USA is larger), population (yup, Europe got more), wealth (overall USA slightly richer, Europe much more equally devided wellfare), and development! Basically, this whole issue and post is just a sidetrack full of nationalist bullshit, born out of presumable ignorance of the other! Next time in stead of shooting first, we might start asking first. I understand, for Second Amendment Worshiping Americans, that is difficult, as you're born with your hands on a trigger*, but try it for once! *also an assumed prejudice!
For the record we invented those railroads of you, as well as the "automobile" (car).... and never claimed ownership of it, nope the biggest manufacturers are in the USA. There is I guess a huge misconception on the EU effort to open control of the Internet. As the http://www.eff.org/ states, the USA isn't completely defending freedom of speech, as their site notes numerous rulings and laws which curb these freedoms. And now with the so called terrorist threat it will be only worse. I admit that Europe is doing it's part as well, but hey selfreflection you see is a great good!
Now, let me alter some of your visions: Also in Europe we have an extensive railroad and road system, especially in the West. Hack, it's well reknowned that these railroads were the basis of the German succes in World War I and these roads were the basis of Nazi-German World War II succes!
Furthermore, we have cable too, and most Europeans surf the net on a broadband cable or DSL line, as well as we have clear water running from the tap. My country is known for having such fresh water from the tap, it's internationally only rivaled by the likes of perrier! So, please next time don't think the US is top of the hill on development, because then we start about the 20% of your population living bellow poverty level, like many people in Africa, making us Europeans wonder if we shouldn't sent some ships with food and development groups over there, as your government doesn't care for it's people!
Yup, hear, hear, let all rednecks come and claim our governments are a bunch of commies, we just laugh on that. Because, here we can choose between more than 2 president candidates, here elections aren't stolen and here the media doesn't commit volunteer censorship, nor it supports but one political party.......... well besides the Italian, but they are considered, hmmm, "different"... so, many of us our proud of Europe too....... It's not that we think the US is all bad, so let us cut the crap and focus on what this issue is about:
Internet is an international commodity, a technology invented mainly by the US DoD, but the European CERN has contributed significantly as well. However, as many people, nations and companies rely on it, world wide, we should see how we can open up. Simply saying the US is doing a great job isn't sufficient. That is like saying: our government is best and as such, we rule your country.......... were are the democratic values?
p.s. when I say Europe, it's a little arogant and wrong, as I mean Western Europe, and actually mainly North Western Europe!
So 50 years after it's release by a US company, it's finaly gonna be sold in the US?
At least you show some selfreflection calling yoruself an anonymous coward, furthermore I will abstain from discussing any matter with creatures like you, as any form of "coming to mutual understanding and agreement" is impossible with types like you! To freely quote your words and make my point clear to you:
There is no discussion based on arguments and mutual respect with you, so please do not attempt to answer here..... as I consider it a waste of time to listen to people who consider themselves to be the sole owner of wisdom and intelligence and in the meanwhile use words as deluted fuckwit to discribe people they disagree with. I will abstain from using a similar kind of arsenal of swearwords, as I consider that a way of talking of the lesser developed individuals!
see it ain't so difficult to use some sort of intelligent grammar, however, it doesn't solve anything, neither freedom of speech, neither the whole issue of the Internet. If you don't wanna get the message.......... happy isolation, as I would be delighted to live in a world free of such a narrow minded thoughtpattern!
So we separate Freedom of Speech on the Internet with Freedom of Speech in general? Really if I have to explain to you why it's weird a country's claim to defend Freedom of Speech shows a little hypocritical to others, only proves to many that Freedom of Speech is a farce in the USA and your schoolsystem does indeed educate to listen and follow in stead of "think freely"!
But then your opinion on the BBC, as it is liberal which should be bad, what is that? I thought the USA was a liberal country, or are you just plain conservatives and is liberal now equal to communist? After the communist haunt in the '50's we gonna get the Liberal Chase in the 21st century?
And it's nice to see, that when someone tries to make a bridge by saying we stand on the same side, you prefer to see it different and claims we don't! If you really like to see your country to stand alone..... then so be it, take your internet, your version of freedom of speech (for conservatives) and your version of truth, attack the rest of the world for indeed, ever changing reasons and be happy with it! If you really can't see any attemt for peacefull reconcilliation, but prefers to feel attacked I guess there is not possible any discussion!
And with (former) Colonies in:
Philipines
Cuba (Guantanamo Bay)
Puerto Rico
It's a little weird to complain only we had them! We disolved most of them, and gave the option to the rest to leave too or stay as integrated parts of Europe! I'm just making a point, the USA installed the same dictators which they try to get rid of now. Which would be a good thing, if it could be done in legitimate ways now. That is by the UN, because, wheter you like it or not, there is such a thing as International Law, designed even BY the USA, during World War II. So you can say it need to be changed. But do we first change the law and then implement it, or can we just do what we think is good? Because that would mean, you or I can shoot random people in the US, claiming they are criminal and it SHOULD be the law that we have the right to do so. But noppe, we don't do that, we FIRST lobby for a new law, then we start shooting, after that law is drafted and accepted!
So again, above part about the law is not against the US. It is against those individuals who say that a Bush invasion in Iraq is rightfull, because every law-abiding person should agree it's not. Has nothing to do with the fact that Saddam was a crook and should be replaced. We agree on that part, as I think he should have, and even praise the US in some way for doing so. I just say: stick to the law, change the law if necessary, but don't break it!
Why do Americans feel attacked all the time? I thought, at least I tried to be critical, though bridge the division.......... my whole point was that we should put our differences aside and see how we can solve this issue (and many others we have) in stead of continue to stirr up hatered and emphasising the differences and disagreements!
Listen, don't think the USA is so ok, my US fiance still wants the Disney movie Song of the South http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_the_South which isn't sold over there, coz it's supposedly racist! A part of your history which even coporate America tries to whippe out! When I explained it, doesn't mean I agree with it, I show you a thought pattern practised by governments and corporations alike!
That's such a non-argument! The Europeans invented the steammachine, electricity, the railroad, they improved gunpowder, the guns, the medicine etc... etc.... Let's take electricity: Edison neither Bell would have been succesfull without it, or when Europe would have kept it for itself, neither the internet would have been possible, and the railroads: the USA wouldn't have become a worldpower without it! Or the automobile as it was originally called: Americans can't live without it, invented by Europeans, triggering the Wright brothers to try to get a likewise machine in the air!
So, you have invented it........ but keeping it for yourself would be stupid as it would be meaningless: all americans chatting together, what nice. No it's the fact that Americans can finaly meet people outside their own narrow minded internal faced culture and see the world what makes internet valuable. And the same count for the Europeans and the rest of the world! The fact we can communicate now, exchange ideas...... that's the value of the net! Claiming that the US has freemarket and Europe don't is another bullshit argument. Our economy runs on free corporations as well. The difference is, we have governments who try to take care of people and stimmulate them to take part in the process, you got a government who excludes millions, making some TV celeb recently to realise that as much as 20% of the nations lives bellow poverty level with no electricity, water, education or any change on improvement, a figure only rivaled by Africa! And we don't say you hand over things, we say you open up! The USA is a Microsoft: one rule all, Europe prefers Open Source: let's share and improve together. Because, you didn't invent it all by yourself! It's exactley this arrogance that makes the USA more and more isolated, don't you guys ever get that?
So what are you saying Godwin?
That that the action of the EU is a good thing? That giving control to the UN is meant to bring the internet out of state control? And when did the US prove it is willing to execute it's control? Because I probably missed that point!
Anyway, if the state that exercise control over the Internet is in Europe I would be "under it's control", however I doubt it is, so I ain't! I guess u need to talk with the other dude in this threat! As I agree with you, that Internet shouldn't be controlled by one! In other threads I read Americans bitching that they can't stand it that they pay for it when the rest wants to control it. Who said they has to pay for it? International control means splitting the bill! Yeah, that's right, a Dutchman saying he is willing to take his share of the costs!
I don't think the Europeans say the USA hasn't done a great job, actually they did. Although in the whole "who invented the net" discussion, the claim that European CERN has invented some great deal, can't be neglected. However, let's get over with it! The point is, First Amendment in place........ you actually claim that only the USA has freedom of speech, and teaches it's people in all freedom, and that even Europe (France in your example) keeps it's people ignorant? The fact France prohibits eBay to sell Nazi stuff has nothing to do with freedom of speech, but with bloody memories of a War that destroyed much of Europe! And it doesn't mean people aren't taught about the whole thing, it's just not allowed to possess it for "glorifying" purposes. And how free is the USA? My fiance was never taught anything about the Theories of Darwin, instead she learned God created the earth in 6 days and rested the 7th! Were is freedom of speech? Were is the First Amendment there? So internet gives you freedom, but if people aren't taught to use it properly, they still can't find a thing. Because, the amount of Americans bitching on Europe clearly shows they have: 1) never been in Europe 2) never read a European newspaper or internet site! I suggest to all those to visit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/ for some news from and about Europe! Good start for Americans, as it's English and they are regarded the most Americanized, together with my nation of the Dutch! So yeah start bitching about me, I ain't French, neither German.... I just want to say: let us put things in perspective! This whole internet thing is not about the technology, neither about some fucked up dictators hooking up with Europe or vice versa. Europe stands on the same ground as the USA concerning freedom of speech and democracy. However, in European views it seems the USA sometimes seem to forget who his friends are..... I can imagine the USA feels likewise, well that means we should sit down and talk, sort the matter out. Bitching we don't have freedom of speech or "support dictators" only lead us to claim counterwise (Evolution Theory, and all the dictators in Latin America, Middle East, South Asia and Africa who are installed by the USA!)....... but that's not the point! Point is, if we claim that we are democrats and support freedom and freedom of speech in special, we should focus on that: How to create an internet in which decesions on DNS and other tech-specs are made democratically and were freedoms are guaranteed! Because none can claim the current syste is democratic, and that's what we in Europe perceive: the USA acts non-democratic and shuts us out!
Well dear RexRhino, Clearly u misread my article, because nowhere I stated that I supported the proposal of the EU, neither did I claim that I was ok with the idea to hook-up with Chinese and other nations who take freedom of speech not for granted, contrary. However, the thing I tried to say, and I will make it more clear now, was the pattern leading to this. You might wonder what 5000 nukes, the 1970's and economic power has to do with the internet. It's the people, here, there everywhere...... they don't see separate institutions and subjects of discussion and conflict. They see one dominating them, and feel uncomfortable with it. Again, just for the record, I don't talk about myself...... as I put in my first post: my fiance is American, I have nothing against Americans, neither against the USA. I'm just a geopolitician of realism school...... and as international relations is my homeground, that's what I observe at news. The fact that this subject fits in with both IT and Politics brings me here! By the way, as I hope you can see, I don't get all personal here, however your asumptions and claims made in your last paragraph did. I don't understand the necessity of that, especially the direct claim"people like you", considering the fact you misread my remarks, which might be understandable as they had been summed briefly. I hope this more extensive explanation makes much of my position clear! I would urge you btw to read some about Europe, comparing the Dutch with Nazi Germans isn't the most polite thing to do. Certainly when you consider the fact that my family fought against and suffered significantly under them. I asume you're American who guesses all Europeans are the same, I mean that would be a similar observation, which I hereby don't make. Again, back to the topic, my point was: I can understand why the EU takes this stance, and why Europeans do feel proud. I also understand that politicians and businessleaders would like to see otherwise. Here comes the paradox of democracy: do we do what people want us to, or do we do what we think is good for them? About giving up this wonderful free exchange of information called the internet, that's not what I, neither the EU or Canada or Argentina have in mind. I don't get all the fuzz btw, as I think the solution is easy: ICANN control is transferred from the US department of commerce to the UN, and continues business as usual. Individual dictators are kept of bay in this way, as they are nothing more than 1 voice in the whole UN, and the UN has no record of taking steps to limit the freedom of speech, besides there are the EU and USA as members too, and last there is the Security Council who can block every decision. You can't deny the fact that the control, how symbolic it might seem gives the US powers way beyond democratic rules. So why not work that out before it gets out of hand and people demand steps that might lead to worse scenario's!?
In previous discussions about this matter, I already thought this would happen! At one side, it makes me happy: finaly the EU stands up for it's rights and makes a point to US unilateral actions and domination based on nothing more than 5000 nukes! World domination was originally based on economic power, something that has slipped the US since the 70's! So, some nationalistic feeling overcomes me, of which I wonder if it's good or not? At the other hand, it saddens me, as my fiance is a US citizen, and currently staying in the USA for some time to come. Splitting the internet makes us not being able to communicate other than by that expensive "relic" called a phone........ But, hey she thought her government was tough and smart by defending his citizens rights, now I can claim the same...... and I prove my point to her, that such a policy in this globalizing world is stupid, ignorant and devastating! conclusion: sad tough, vive l'Europe!
It's nice to be American I guess, well my US Citizen wife does like it. For me, as a Dutchman as for many other non-US citizens, we just have to suffer from the White House and Capitol Hill witts and whims....... and suffer we do! Wheter it's Iraq invasions (no UN embargo), to wheter it's the Internet: The US goes it's own way....... We suffer, coz we're not allowed to vote for the US Congress and US President. And if the USA call itself a democracy, but impose strickt control on the world, that's a bit of a hypocracy and to me sounds a bit contradicting! So the USA wants to keep strickt control on an Internet that has been invented by the European CERN? That's a fascinating fact, as it shows to me again the worthlessness of European politcians, they just gave it all away! Yes, we should take the blame then on ourselves....... besides, I always thought it was invented by DARPA or the US Army research branch, as well as some commercial companies had their "intranets" (My dad worked at IBM, and was using email long ago in the early seventies already, he never got the fuzz when internet went public, as to him it was normal). Point is, a global product as internet, should be globally regulated. Especially with DNS, it's like the national currency, the US is making the Brittish pounds, the Euro, the Yen and so forth. No country would accept this and it becomes time the US starts to get that the world doesn't like this state of being! We want to control our own destiny. My wife jokinly tells me that the US doesn't care, and she doesn't, as she is American and sees her country thriving. Now being in the Netherlands and being bitched on dailly by the "Dutch friends", she starts to get the perception of the world! This whole thing goes beyond the internet, it's part of the whole US arrogance, and slowly this arrogance will destroy the US, as it will aleniate more and more former allies and friends, untill only the UK and Australia are left, and even there the citizens start to hate Americans. I hope for my wifes nation, they realise this sooner, before the rest of the world discover they can do without the US and start to isolate the US from the outside (reversed isolation).
I would like to coment to Hosiah first: there are people who are not paid and are satisfied with Ubuntu, and I'm one of them. New to Linux as I am, I tried to download Fedora, I worked with Suse Linux (9.2), and wasn't able to update one single program with their so credited YAST....... and then I was refered to Ubuntu by some dude on Orkut..... as I needed a alternative for windows, which had crashed. Ubuntu installed fine with me, didn't take that much time and after the first boot it operated ok. Now I can choose between Gnome (the default for Ubuntu), KDE (tyhe default for Kubuntu), xfde, and enlightenment desktops..... and with the right repositories or Linux knowledge I can imagine anyone to be able to install any desired desktop manager! The programs to come with Ubuntu are meeting the basic needs for any computer user, and that's what Ubuntu aims for: a Desktop Linux, as an alternative for windows..... So OpenOffice (I agree, it's still 1.1.3 instead of the new 1.1.5 or a working 2.0) or Abiword, Mozilla Thunderbird and Firefox, Gaim... some P2P's, SQL, etc.... and of you go! Do I have any negative comment, or am I an Ubuntu marketeer in disguise? Yeah there are some negative coments, but they apply more to Debian distro's in general: APT is ok, but the repositories are difficult to find, many software is long updated, but the developer sites offer a range of RPM's etc... but no Debian repositories. Secondly, this refers to Ubuntu: the choice not to join the new DCC initiative, and thus drifting away from Debian and thus the Linux Standard Base.... seems not that smart to me. Further, again to the program updates: to lead people through Ubuntu repository sites, limit their possibilities, why not add the developers sites as well...... then people can enjoy the latest stable releases. And if you're renewing anwyays: for the newest newbee, a graphical installer would be nice, as people can get scared by the old styled installer! But overall, in my opinion, Ubuntu is one of the easiest Linux Distro's...... I've tried the much aclaimed PCLinuxOS, Foresight Linux and MEPIS....... all refused to boot from CD, claiming errors on the CD..... now this is possible, but why does a later downloaded Kubuntu CD install? Just some thoughts...... it doesn't btw mean I will never try these distro's again, but for the moment, I'm satisfied, and people who ain't and instantly claim "it all sux, and isn't worth a dime"....... that's to me a harsh remark.
I haven't tried OS X but from my view point as a Ubuntu user, I must say, some Linux distro's have improved majorly but still updating software can be a menace! If I don't work my way around the auto-install tool (which is very hard to do for a non-techie) I'm using outdated openoffice, an outdated firefox and so on.... There lies a challenge for Linux..