> That is indeed what I do as soon as I run into anything "esoteric" (that is, anything
> that a mac or windows PC can handle effortlessly but which chokes my linux machines
> HARD).
Effortlessly? Like I said the only cases for me are when DHCP is off, which I don't see often - and how effortless can your "octogenarian rocket scientist" dad configure Windows or Mac for static IP with custom Gateway, custom DNS-Server? Yeah, that's what I thought.
But I do get your point. Of course those cases should be solvable in the GUI as well, and from what I hear that's where things are going (yes, yes, linux is lagging behind in this regard). But my comment was in response to claims that "it doesn't work at all" and "network-manager keeps preventing me from doing this and that". I never claimed this was newbie-proof solution. Or that it shouldn't be improved upon.
> Linux wireless works perfectly in some subset of configurations (that happily
> includes most corporate and Starbucks-type rigs) but, in my personal experience, does
> not come close to mac or windows wireless.
Ack.
(Though, I admit I did enjoy reading your over the top comment.;))
Say what? I've been using WPA with PSK since Dapper with the default network-manager packages from the repos. No custom anything. I have an intel ipw2200 in my notebook, and a (branded) zyxel 660hw router. I click on the GUI choose a network, enter my WEP or WPA key, and it just works. It was that way on Dapper, and it's still that way on Edgy.
If you want to work around network-manager in "esoteric" situations (I sometimes have to if there is no DHCP), you can simply
James Anderson: The numbers all divide by zero. Look, right across the board, zero, zero, zero and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most calculators only go down to 1?
James Anderson: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's one smaller? Is it any smaller?
James Anderson: Well, it's one smaller, isn't it? It's not one. You see, most blokes, you know, will be dividing by one. You're on one here, all the way down, all the way down, all the way down, you're on one on your calculator. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
James Anderson: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Divide by zero?
James Anderson: Zero. Exactly. One smaller.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make one smaller and make one be the smallest number and make that a little smaller?
James Anderson: [pause, blank look and snapping chewing gum] These divide by zero.
Ironic, given that the screenshot he is showing has exactly two easily accessible options (lock and power down) and hides the rest away. Most users may or may not take a look at the other tucked away options in the drop-down/pop-up-box, and probably not worry about it again if they feel scared. So, for users who want less complexity there is already a very reduced choice of options. Is he then suggesting taking away options from power users? Really? B the same logic shouldn't notepad bet better than any IDE for doing programming, because it has less choice? And we probably want to do away with the command line for good, because there's clearly waaay to many options there. And the large majority of people already favoured the one-button mouse from apple very strongle, so much in fact, that apple never was asked for mice with more buttons, and most pc-users today buy and use one-button mouses.
Now, clearly Joel (and me here) have oversimplified the topic so much, that the dogma "less is more" has led to absurd suggestions. The key for successfully applying "less is more", is to properly look at the context. For a computer that is used as an internetkiosk, "log off" is the only button you need, there reducing choice is helpful. For a laptop user it would be extremely annoying not being able to choose sleep or hibernate, because it is going to waste energy and reduce the time I'll be able to work on it. Automatic powermanagement is not an option, because it can't read my mind. The computer will always be in hibernate when I just don't have the time to wait for it to power back on, or it will waste energy in sleep, when I know I'll be away.
I like to compare those options with my clothing options as a human. How would you like it, if somebody wanted to simplify things for you, and you only had two choices: naked (for sleeping), and fully dressed (for work). Want to take of the sweater because you have a shirt underneath? Tough luck, it was "optimized" away so you wouldn't have to worry about choices. Want to take off your shoes on the plane? Nope, either naked or fully dressed are your only options. Pretty silly - for most people, now of course there will be some people (those you are stressed out by clothing choices) that may feel a binary choice is progress, and good for them, yet that doesn't justify taking away the options from those who feel very comfortable partially taking some clothes off.
The funny thing is, that Joel even acknowledges tht there are good reasons why people who are comfortable with the choices, and why they are necessary for some, yet he somehow implicitly argues that those people are overridden by the ones that get scared by the options. He never explains why, though. Which IMHO makes his argument/position look very weak.
A friend had an elitegroup notebook (a really cheap one) with built-in wifi (b). While helping him set it up, wndows crashed one time, so we unplugged and took out the battery to powercycle it. Suddenly the wifi was gone - the hardware wasn't being recognized. After trying out a whole lot of things and being frustrated, we figured, the heck, we'll just do the same thing we did when it disappeared - unplug and remove the battery on the running system. It actually worked. And it kept working for the next two years. Whenever the wifi-hardware stopped being recognized nothing would help (reboot, shutdown+wait, shutdown+unplug+wait, fiddle with drivers etc. etc.), except unplugging power chord and removing the battery while it was running - and it worked every time.
I have no idea why that would even work, it sounds very silly.
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> That is indeed what I do as soon as I run into anything "esoteric" (that is, anything > that a mac or windows PC can handle effortlessly but which chokes my linux machines > HARD). Effortlessly? Like I said the only cases for me are when DHCP is off, which I don't see often - and how effortless can your "octogenarian rocket scientist" dad configure Windows or Mac for static IP with custom Gateway, custom DNS-Server? Yeah, that's what I thought. But I do get your point. Of course those cases should be solvable in the GUI as well, and from what I hear that's where things are going (yes, yes, linux is lagging behind in this regard). But my comment was in response to claims that "it doesn't work at all" and "network-manager keeps preventing me from doing this and that". I never claimed this was newbie-proof solution. Or that it shouldn't be improved upon. > Linux wireless works perfectly in some subset of configurations (that happily > includes most corporate and Starbucks-type rigs) but, in my personal experience, does > not come close to mac or windows wireless. Ack. (Though, I admit I did enjoy reading your over the top comment. ;))
Say what? I've been using WPA with PSK since Dapper with the default network-manager packages from the repos. No custom anything. I have an intel ipw2200 in my notebook, and a (branded) zyxel 660hw router. I click on the GUI choose a network, enter my WEP or WPA key, and it just works. It was that way on Dapper, and it's still that way on Edgy.
/etc/dbus-1/event.d/25NetworkManager stop
If you want to work around network-manager in "esoteric" situations (I sometimes have to if there is no DHCP), you can simply
sudo
ifconfig.....
And later, when you're done and go back to your home network, you restart network-manager likewise. It's easily scripted.
James Anderson: The numbers all divide by zero. Look, right across the board, zero, zero, zero and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most calculators only go down to 1?
James Anderson: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's one smaller? Is it any smaller?
James Anderson: Well, it's one smaller, isn't it? It's not one. You see, most blokes, you know, will be dividing by one. You're on one here, all the way down, all the way down, all the way down, you're on one on your calculator. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
James Anderson: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Divide by zero?
James Anderson: Zero. Exactly. One smaller.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make one smaller and make one be the smallest number and make that a little smaller?
James Anderson: [pause, blank look and snapping chewing gum] These divide by zero.
Ironic, given that the screenshot he is showing has exactly two easily accessible options (lock and power down) and hides the rest away. Most users may or may not take a look at the other tucked away options in the drop-down/pop-up-box, and probably not worry about it again if they feel scared. So, for users who want less complexity there is already a very reduced choice of options. Is he then suggesting taking away options from power users? Really? B the same logic shouldn't notepad bet better than any IDE for doing programming, because it has less choice? And we probably want to do away with the command line for good, because there's clearly waaay to many options there. And the large majority of people already favoured the one-button mouse from apple very strongle, so much in fact, that apple never was asked for mice with more buttons, and most pc-users today buy and use one-button mouses.
Now, clearly Joel (and me here) have oversimplified the topic so much, that the dogma "less is more" has led to absurd suggestions. The key for successfully applying "less is more", is to properly look at the context. For a computer that is used as an internetkiosk, "log off" is the only button you need, there reducing choice is helpful. For a laptop user it would be extremely annoying not being able to choose sleep or hibernate, because it is going to waste energy and reduce the time I'll be able to work on it. Automatic powermanagement is not an option, because it can't read my mind. The computer will always be in hibernate when I just don't have the time to wait for it to power back on, or it will waste energy in sleep, when I know I'll be away.
I like to compare those options with my clothing options as a human. How would you like it, if somebody wanted to simplify things for you, and you only had two choices: naked (for sleeping), and fully dressed (for work). Want to take of the sweater because you have a shirt underneath? Tough luck, it was "optimized" away so you wouldn't have to worry about choices. Want to take off your shoes on the plane? Nope, either naked or fully dressed are your only options. Pretty silly - for most people, now of course there will be some people (those you are stressed out by clothing choices) that may feel a binary choice is progress, and good for them, yet that doesn't justify taking away the options from those who feel very comfortable partially taking some clothes off.
The funny thing is, that Joel even acknowledges tht there are good reasons why people who are comfortable with the choices, and why they are necessary for some, yet he somehow implicitly argues that those people are overridden by the ones that get scared by the options. He never explains why, though. Which IMHO makes his argument/position look very weak.
A friend had an elitegroup notebook (a really cheap one) with built-in wifi (b). While helping him set it up, wndows crashed one time, so we unplugged and took out the battery to powercycle it. Suddenly the wifi was gone - the hardware wasn't being recognized. After trying out a whole lot of things and being frustrated, we figured, the heck, we'll just do the same thing we did when it disappeared - unplug and remove the battery on the running system. It actually worked.
And it kept working for the next two years. Whenever the wifi-hardware stopped being recognized nothing would help (reboot, shutdown+wait, shutdown+unplug+wait, fiddle with drivers etc. etc.), except unplugging power chord and removing the battery while it was running - and it worked every time.
I have no idea why that would even work, it sounds very silly.